Are social dancers intimidated by competitive ones?

[tanya_the_dancer]

As I suggested in the other thread, this probably merits a thread of its own. So here is some copy&paste from there:

Quote:
Originally Posted by elisedance
Thats what we do - try to practice at a social studio - but since we do not have a formal 'home' studio we have to do this at a friendly but not entirely accomodating studio (can't blame them). There seems to be a love-hate relationship between social and competetive dancers. On the one hand, a lot of social dancers seem to love to watch trained dancers on teh floor and we get lots of compliments and encouragement. on the other hand some (a minority) get scared and intimidated when they see a couple bearing down on them at a rate of knots - even if there is no danger of a collision. Thus, sometimes there are complaints. I wish the social studios would have at least the occasional dance where just competitors and the stronger social dancers were invited on the floor - they could call it a 'showcase dance'. It would benefit all...

Actually, I think I am going to suggest that the next time I am there...
end quote

You know, this probably merits a whole thread of its own: to what extent social dancers are intimidated by competitive ones? I had a lesson the other day and we shared the floor with one other teacher working with a social couple, and at one point I think they were not too happy when they were doing foxtrot and I was doing foxtrot with my teacher, and ours looked a lot different than theirs.

[fascination]

moderator note:...this subject has had a history of becoming inflammatory....let us make sure that it doesn't...thanks and happy holidays ;)

[Peaches]

Thanks, F.

Speaking only for myself...hell yes. Absolutely, without a shadow of a doubt, yes.

Not so much from a getting mowed down on the floor standpoint (although I'll admit to cringing and flinching), but purely from a personal insecurity/self esteem standpoint. Nothing like being amongst competitive dancers to take the ego down quite a few pegs, and undo most of any progress made on that front in the AT realm.

But that's just my insecurity, and nothing that any competitive dancer should be concerned about. It's entirely my issue to deal with, not theirs. (I'd just ask/trust them to have good enough floorcraft to not run me over, is all. Don't think that's too much to ask.)

[tanya_the_dancer]

At some places I've been to, the showcase performances were ordered from less experienced to more experienced, so there was less contrast between consecutive performances. I think that sort of helps with self-esteem issues.

[kayak]

I only felt uncomfortable at the very beginning stages. Since I hardly knew where I was, I didn't feel comfortable knowing where the better dancers would be going. Nice words either as they danced past or after the dance as we were leaving the floor really made a huge difference in my confidence. Now that I'm better, I always try to pass on the same good will.

It doesn't stress me that lots of dancers know way more than I do. I dance better than I ever even imagined being able to. There is lots and lots to learn. So I just try new stuff as I learn it. After messing it up 5 million times, it suddenly becomes easy :D

[wooh]

I think some less experienced dancers are intimidated by some more experienced dancers, social or competitive having nothing to do with it. "Competitive" doesn't neccesarily mean "better." I would say my husband and I are better dancers than quite a few competitive couples in the area that show up at the occasional social. And I know one other primarily social couple that is a LOT better than a lot of the competitive couples in the area.
As far as barreling down the floor, I do get annoyed with a few competitive couples mowing down the floor, because they have NO FLOORCRAFT and can't veer off their routine. That wouldn't be because I'm intimidated by them, but because I think they have things they need to work on before they get on a social floor. I'd be happy for them to have a competitive couple only social to go to, so they aren't making a mess of our floor!

[fascination]

I think some less experienced dancers are intimidated by some more experienced dancers, social or competitive having nothing to do with it. "Competitive" doesn't neccesarily mean "better." I would say my husband and I are better dancers than quite a few competitive couples in the area that show up at the occasional social. And I know one other primarily social couple that is a LOT better than a lot of the competitive couples in the area.
As far as barreling down the floor, I do get annoyed with a few competitive couples mowing down the floor, because they have NO FLOORCRAFT and can't veer off their routine. That wouldn't be because I'm intimidated by them, but because I think they have things they need to work on before they get on a social floor. I'd be happy for them to have a competitive couple only social to go to, so they aren't making a mess of our floor!
very good points and distinctions

[Peaches]

"Competitive" doesn't neccesarily mean "better."
True. And to some of us it doesn't matter. Competitive is still more intimidating.

[elisedance]

True. And to some of us it doesn't matter. Competitive is still more intimidating.

To make it worse from that point of view, part of the object of competitive dancing IS to be intimidating - you are trying to intimidate the competition with your superior skills, confidence, expression etc etc. Perhaps competitive dancers would be more easily accepted on the social floor if they left that aspect out even if they are dancing full tilt.

[fascination]

hmmm...I have honestly never considered that to be part of my goal...I want my dancing to beat them not my potential at mind games

[Peaches]

Why should they leave it out just b/c some of us have confidence issues? Again...it's not their problem.

Like I said, the only thing I ask is that they put their superior dance skills towards floorcraft, so I don't get run over.

[fascination]

frankly my only mental condition is enough of a chore without tryin' to mess w/ theirs...plus, I would feel guilty for that sort of behavior...and I have enough guilt already

[Peaches]

I don't see that it's anything to feel guilty about. From what I gather, competition is as much about performing as it is about dancing. Part of that performance is, I would imagine, walking out projecting confidence. How others interpret it is up to them.

[fascination]

walking out projecting confidence for my own sake is one thing...doing anything to deliberately intimidate someone else is, IMO, not acceptable

[Peaches]

*shrug* Would seem to be a matter of intent, but the end result (confidence projection) the same.

[fascination]

well...how we feel about ourselves is a factor...and I can't dance well if I have guilt or some other negative thing going on...now confidence...THAT is a keeper

[skwiggy]

Why should they leave it out just b/c some of us have confidence issues?

There is a time and a place for everything. A lot of the performance factor that belongs on the competition floor has no business on the social floor. And that has nothing to do with the confidence of others. It has to do with the fact that a social dance is not a competition, nor a performance. It is by definition, social.

[fascination]

true...simply not possible to do unless you want to cause someone else serious injury

[Peaches]

Well, yeah. Keeping your arm styling to yourself comes to mind, as does being considerate of other dancers around you. Maybe that means dancing smaller, or what-have-you. But if you're talking about...what were we talking about?...hold a moment..."superior skills, confidence, expression " then there's nothing there that'll get in the way of social dancing. Sure, you might look like a dork doing expressive comp emoting on a social floor...but if that doesn't bother you, knock yourself out.

[fascination]

don't even get me started on emoting...another conversation over lemon water

[elisedance]

I'll skip that one - let me know when you're having one over fire-water...

[Peaches]

don't even get me started on emoting...another conversation over lemon waterHow long are you going to be here for the MD comp? 'Cuz you're racking up a lot of lemon-water-conversations.

[Indiana_Jay]

My LW and I are not competitors, but I don't feel at all intimidated by competitors, even when they're practicing (or taking a lesson) on the same studio floor while we're having our lesson.

I also have no problem with competitive dancers at social events, as long as they understand the difference between a social event and practice time. I don't think competitors should come to a social to practice their competitive routines. They should arrange their own (perhaps shared) floor time for that. But competitors (who are dancing with each other) should not feel they must dance only bronze figures to "fit in" with other dancers -- as long as they have the necessary floorcraft skills to avoid collisions and near-collisions.

With my long legs and a good follower, I tend to cover a lot of floor with my "barely bronze" skills, but if I see a couple approaching at an even higher speed, I simply move toward the center of the floor a bit to give them room. No intimidation felt at all.

My two cents.

-IJ

[DennisBeach]

To make it worse from that point of view, part of the object of competitive dancing IS to be intimidating - you are trying to intimidate the competition with your superior skills, confidence, expression etc etc. Perhaps competitive dancers would be more easily accepted on the social floor if they left that aspect out even if they are dancing full tilt.

Better social dancers do the same thing, they dance the best they can safely dance, based on the situation. We are social dancers and never had a problem with the advanced competitive dancers at the studio or at dances. Advanced social dancers are also into dancing their best and can be intimidating or inspiring, it just depends on how the person takes it.

The barrelling down the floor without floorcraft is a problem with some social and competitive dancers. Fortunately in my experience, it is a minority in both groups. I have scene numerous competitive dancers at social dances and most have very good floorcraft. A few don't know how to adapt to sutiations and our a pain, but most are courteous dancers and not a problem.

[Auntie Crazy]

I am not the least bit intimidated by better dancers, be they competitive or social. Admiring, jealous and deliriously tickled when I get to dance with them, however - you bet. :D

A.C.

[jwlinson]

Many good points, and much good discussion on the topic (finally).

The studio I attend does not actively promote competition as a goal, but has done it in the past. They stopped due to lack of interest.

That said, my DP/GF and I do not currently compete; however, we do take our dancing as seriously as any competitive couple in all regards (technique, floorcraft, you name it).

I'm not at all intimidated by competitively-minded couples. There's a much larger studio 3 hours away whose parties we attend every so often. Their students do use the social floor time to practice their routines and such, which I don't blame them for in the least. Any practice time is time well-spent. The problem I do have is that these couples (well, most anyways) have spent so much time practicing these competition routines and/or getting themselves "in the zone" for their upcoming comps that they have *no* floorcraft to speak of, and have no qualms about tearing down the floor with arms flailing during, say, a Viennese waltz... on a crowded floor no less...

I can't count the number of times I've nearly had my (or my partner's) head taken off...

Our coaches teach floorcraft as a primary point in dancing. My partner and I actually go to the crowded dancefloors at the country dance barns around here to practice moving around and through the other couples moving haphazardly around the floor (anyone who's seen country dancing will know what I mean) :D At our studio parties, our coach will play around with us and have little "dogfights;" cutting us off, getting in our way, etc. which helps improve our floorcraft and helps us learn how to avoid other couples. For anyone who hasn't tried that, it can actually be quite fun.

We focus mainly on the Standard syllabus, but since we're showdancers we also have several open-style steps and routines we incorporate (audience pleasers!). We do our openwork at parties, but we also know when it's safe (and appropriate) to do.

I know not every competitive couple is like this, as we've danced amongst couples who had awesome floorcraft and knew when it was appropriate to do their routines and openwork and when it was not. The majority of ones I've experienced just...dont..

[tangotime]

let me give you some "long time " perspective.

being trained in the UK ( first socially and then comp ), many studios back in the 40,s and 50s , would not allow comp. dancers at their social nites . ( some even had separate nites for Stand, Latin and Comp. practice ) I can re call where,in some public ballrooms, Jive was not permitted !

This originated from complaints by the social dancers, not about initimidation, but floor space . Not all schools complied, and gradually , for those that did not, their social nites dwindled .

There is a still a stong contingent of schools that prefer to stay with the social aspect of teaching-- and of course-- in larger metro areas, schools which are predominantly the other way .

[cornutt]

I am not the least bit intimidated by better dancers, be they competitive or social. Admiring, jealous and deliriously tickled when I get to dance with them, however - you bet. :D


Yeah, that's my cure for it -- I walk over to them and say, "You vill dance vith me!" :D

(I say that like my dancing might have, somewhere, sometime, somehow, actually intimidated someone... :tongue:)

[tanya_the_dancer]

let me give you some "long time " perspective.

being trained in the UK ( first socially and then comp ), many studios back in the 40,s and 50s , would not allow comp. dancers at their social nites . ( some even had separate nites for Stand, Latin and Comp. practice ) I can re call where,in some public ballrooms, Jive was not permitted !

This originated from complaints by the social dancers, not about initimidation, but floor space . Not all schools complied, and gradually , for those that did not, their social nites dwindled .

There is a still a stong contingent of schools that prefer to stay with the social aspect of teaching-- and of course-- in larger metro areas, schools which are predominantly the other way .

Such segregation might be viable in larger areas or in areas where dancing (in very general sense) is more popular. I cannot imagine any ballroom studio in our area (or similar) turning away a potential client because their orientation (social vs. competitive) is different. They all try to offer as wide variety of services as possible.

[dgcasey]

walking out projecting confidence for my own sake is one thing...doing anything to deliberately intimidate someone else is, IMO, not acceptable

I can tell you've never played organized sports. ;)

Gamesmanship has always been a part of competition. But ... you have better have some game and bring it to the floor or you look like an idiot when all is said and done.

[liz]

having began as a social dancer then doing only competitive shortly after. I can say that there are difficult parts in both. I have great respect for social dancers. Having to change partners, adjust to their abilities, trying not to run over anyone along the way. I have been spoiled by dancing only with pros. I am a horrible social dancer.. It isn't fun for me or who ever is trying to dance with me...

[fascination]

I can tell you've never played organized sports. ;)

Gamesmanship has always been a part of competition. But ... you have better have some game and bring it to the floor or you look like an idiot when all is said and done.
part of my game doesn't need to be worrying about anyone else...just about being my best...and I have never loked like an idiot out there...often I look like the winner:cool:

[dgcasey]

part of my game doesn't need to be worrying about anyone else...just about being my best...and I have never loked like an idiot out there...often I look like the winner:cool:

:applause:

I'm not worthy, I'm not worthy!

:)

[fascination]

obviously not at spelling bees...lol

[fascination]

but thanks ;)

[jwlinson]

On a similar train of thought: something I've noticed all too often is a sort of schism between competitively-minded dancers and social dancers. It seems all too often that comp. dancers "look down" on what I guess some perceive as the "lower-class" social dancers. When talking to other dancers that do compete, we have heard such things as "my pro does this" or "my pro and I do that" or something similar. My DP/GF and I dance almost exclusively with each other (save lessons and parties, where we will occasionally intermingle), and as such don't really have a "pro." We do have two coaches (who teach us together), but we dance with each other more than anyone else. When these people we talk to find out we don't compete and are in fact a strictly "amateur" couple, it seems their attitudes towards us change. Nevermind the fact we are *extremely* serious about our dancing... I actually keep a copy of the IS and IL syllabus on my Pocket PC at all times for reference :)

I'd like to hear opinions on this from both sides. Has anyone else experienced this? Perhaps we've just been unfortunate enough to have dealt with a few of the "rotten eggs" of the bunch.

[fascination]

well...several points which I have made elsewhere but I hope bear repeating:

1) just as you would talk about your DP/GF, the only "partner" I have is my pro...so when I talk about my dancing I am going to talk about my pro and what he says and thinks...not as a way of postioning myself "above " someone else but b/c nearly my entire dance experience is wrapped up in the man...minus some time out with dh and others at an occasional party.

2) I can honstly say that I have never personally had anything but the highest esteem for amatuer couples whether they compete or NOT, who take their dancing seriously...and, for that matter, I also respect those who don't take it seriously (that is their perogative)...in fact, I think the only folks for whom I struggle to have respect are; pros who are lazy and deliberately mediocre, be but represent themselves as top notch...and folks who are not willing to learn technique, only patterns(also fine), but then think that they should give me a tutorial b/c I don't know all of the steps that they know and couldn't follow them b/c they elected not to learn the "unimportant stuff" like how to hold yourself up and lead properly etc...

3) yes, I think there are some snooty competitive dancers out there(as there are snooty people everywhere else)...I ran into one at USDSC who literally accused me of trying to punch him out when he ran into my arm during a QS...but I also think there are plenty of social dancers out there whose own self imposed resentments and inferiority complexes are more real than the scorn they imagine competitive dancers have for them

4) therefore I find most of these distinctions divisive, tiresome, and quite frankly, not worthy of the time we give them (which has been ample) when the majority of us who love dance respect most others who also love dance... barring other non-dance related issues

[tsb]

i echo the sentiments of the previous post.

everyone dances for different reasons and goals. and it's natural that people who dance to be judged against some arbitrary standard are going to place a lower priority developing floorcraft skills early on. and those people i encounter who think i should dance for the same reasons they do and have the same priorities (or lack of them) tend to be the ones to irritate me the most.

[FatBaldGuy60]

I would like to ask other people about their experiences at their dance clubs. This is somewhat OT, but not completely. My wife and I are building up to compete in a few months. We will do six dances, so when we go to local dances we try to dance most of the dances, whatever style it may be, since we want the practice.

But, probably 90% of the dancers at one club are pretty much strictly WCS dancers, and they dance swing to just about whatever is played. We had the Christmas dance last Friday and there were some wonderful demos. One was a very nice AT, which was the last demo of that set. Strangely enough, the next song for general dancing was a tango. The two who had demoed each got a partner and danced tango. There were 20 or so couples on the floor for this dance, and those two couples were the only ones doing tango. Everyone else was doing swing!

There is another club where the ratio of non-swing dancers is higher, but they don't have dances as often. Fortunately the studio owner where we practice is having a ballroom night Christmas party for her students, so that should be more fun.

Now, dance whatever you like, that's none of my business, but when you want to dance a tango to a tango and there are 15-20 couples standing in their slots doing swing and showing no intention of keeping to the center or allowing normal movement down the LOD...well...it's just easier not to do a tango. That frustrates me a bit.

/end rant

FBG

[Peaches]

Did it actually cause problems?

AT dancers are kind of known for being as fanatical about dancing AT to anything, just as WCS dancers will dance WCS to anything.

If they were dancing AT (real AT, not ballroom tango, and not ballroom dancers thinking they're dancing AT), I'd be surprised if it caused an actual problem. Maybe it may have irritated the westies, but AT is flexible enough (with good enough dancers, which I'm assuming, since they were demo-ing) that it really shouldn't have been an obstacle.

[tanya_the_dancer]

I usually don't go to the clubs, just to ballroom socials, usually at the studios where I also take lessons. So I have met quite a few other guests before, i.e. they had a lesson at the same time as I did. So they would have seen me dance on my lesson, and I suppose it could affect how often I am going to be asked for a dance.

[tanya_the_dancer]

Did it actually cause problems?

AT dancers are kind of known for being as fanatical about dancing AT to anything, just as WCS dancers will dance WCS to anything.

If they were dancing AT (real AT, not ballroom tango, and not ballroom dancers thinking they're dancing AT), I'd be surprised if it caused an actual problem. Maybe it may have irritated the westies, but AT is flexible enough (with good enough dancers, which I'm assuming, since they were demo-ing) that it really shouldn't have been an obstacle.

I know next to nothing about AT, but ballroom tango is supposed to move around the floor. So, yes, if there were too many people doing a stationary dance, it would eventually make it hard to move around them. It's like when there is a quickstep song playing and some people are doing swing to it. Even if they're keeping to the center, if their numbers are high enough, they will run out of room in the center.

[Peaches]

That's why I was asking if it actually caused problems.

AT does, generally, move LOD. But nowhere even remotely near the same way that ballroom tango does. But AT can be danced in one little corner just fine, in keeping with the stationary dancing going on. Or, it can maneuver around just fine.

Edit to add: If the people dancing AT couldn't adjust to either stay in a corner or maneuver around others, either they were being inconsiderate or they weren't that skilled. (Or, I could point out that since the song was a tango, they had right of way and it was the westies own problem if they didn't have room to move, since they were the ones doing the "wrong" dance! :p ;-) :-) )

[tangotime]

(Or, I could point out that since the song was a tango, they had right of way and it was the westies own problem if they didn't have room to move, since they were the ones doing the "wrong" dance! :p ;-) :-) )

The music was probably a B/Room type tango--- i played a T/Arg, style for my regular social last month-- no one got up !!

[jwlinson]

It's like when there is a quickstep song playing and some people are doing swing to it. Even if they're keeping to the center, if their numbers are high enough, they will run out of room in the center.

You have to admit it is fun to maneuver around the ones who stray from the center though! :cool:

[elisedance]

You have to admit it is fun to maneuver around the ones who stray from the center though! :cool:

maneuver?? We consider them fair game......:twisted::car:

[tanya_the_dancer]

You have to admit it is fun to maneuver around the ones who stray from the center though! :cool:

As long as there is enough room to maneuver. Once it starts feeling like making your way through a shopping mall on Saturday before Christmas, then it is no longer fun.

[elisedance]

Its rather a myth that quickstep does not utilize the centre of the floor. It is possible to stay to the edges - its one thing to dance politely round slower dancers but its quite a different one that it becomes normal that one can never use the centre.

It could help if the DJs announce the dance style before the first of a set is played? That way beginners who may not be able to tell a quickstep from a jive would be clued in - and be forwarned of the hazzards. The alternative seems to be, in effect, to banish the moving dances from the ballroom floor. I also think that it would be nice if there were a couple of dances each evening that were reserved for competitors. This has three beneficial effects: first it gives them a chance to go all out and also enjoy the evening; second it gives them no excuse to practice open and floor-hogging moves when social dancers are out and, third, it provides the studio with an instant (and free) showcase opportunity where competitive dancing styles can be highlighted.

[skwiggy]

I also think that it would be nice if there were a couple of dances each evening that were reserved for competitors.

This would only seem fair if there were also a couple of dances each evening that were reserved for non-competitors. Otherwise, I imagine the non-competitors would quickly become resentful of others who paid the same cover charge getting more floor time than they do.

[Peaches]

This would only seem fair if there were also a couple of dances each evening that were reserved for non-competitors. Otherwise, I imagine the non-competitors would quickly become resentful of others who paid the same cover charge getting more floor time than they do.*shrug* Life isn't fair. If we don't like it, we could go elsewhere. Then it becomes a balancing act for the owner/host of the social dance.

I don't see it being a huge problem if it's kept to only a few dances. (Might not help with intimidation-factor, though. ;-) )

[elisedance]

This would only seem fair if there were also a couple of dances each evening that were reserved for non-competitors. Otherwise, I imagine the non-competitors would quickly become resentful of others who paid the same cover charge getting more floor time than they do.

Might think so - but there are line dances which are reserved for people who do line dances and often clubs have mixers and all sorts. Why not have a competitors dance? Sure, they could have a beginners one too, I think that would also be a great idea - but I doubt that many people would enjoy the show (at least kindly!).

[Peaches]

Might think so - but there are line dances which are reserved for people who do line dances and often clubs have mixers and all sorts. Why not have a competitors dance? Sure, they could have a beginners one too, I think that would also be a great idea - but I doubt that many people would enjoy the show (at least kindly!).I see your point, but I think you're mixing apples and oranges.

As much as it seems to bother competitors not to be able to go all-out while social dancing, the flip-side of the coin is that beginners and struggling social dancers don't care for being mowed down, either. Or the "threat"/fear of being mowed down. *shrug* Can never pleas 100% of the people 100% of the time.

[elisedance]

Thats the whole point P: by having a few dances reserved for full-out dancing I think everyone would be pleased. Frankly, I find it infuriating to go to a social studio and find that I can not dance to my best ability. Where is it written that someone trained should not go to a social studio? By the way, the studio owners are often schizophrenic about this: they both take pride in the attendance of competitors (and will announce the presence of so-and-so who just won the so-and-so comp) but then also get upset if the same dance to their ability. My suggestion would permit the comp level dancers a few chances to go all out with the other side of the coin being that they are obliged NOT to do so during the other dances. Frankly, I can't see a down side to this excpet that social dancers would not be ablt to go on the floor for every dance - but thats usually the case anyway since how many know steps for everything?

[Cal]

Golly, it just doesn't sit well with me to attend a social dance and have certain dances "reserved" for competitors only. Are ALL competitors welcome on the floor or will the "open advanced" competitors want their own special dances so that they don't get tripped up by the "newcomer" competitors? What about the social dancers who have to sit out but who have more skills than the newcomer competitors? And the social dancers are supposed to be appreciative of the "treat"?

If there is a specific couple attending a social dance that just won a prestigious event and the organizers want them to perform, then arrange it beforehand and let everyone know the time that it will take place during the evening.

But to just have "general-competitors only" dances - umm... uh-uh.

If competitors want to dance full-out, there are venues for that: they are called competitions. And at those venues, social dancers won't wander onto your competition floor in the middle of your heat.

Nah- at a social dance, just work with what's there.

[Peaches]

Thats the whole point P: by having a few dances reserved for full-out dancing I think everyone would be pleased. Frankly, I find it infuriating to go to a social studio and find that I can not dance to my best ability. Where is it written that someone trained should not go to a social studio? By the way, the studio owners are often schizophrenic about this: they both take pride in the attendance of competitors (and will announce the presence of so-and-so who just won the so-and-so comp) but then also get upset if the same dance to their ability. My suggestion would permit the comp level dancers a few chances to go all out with the other side of the coin being that they are obliged NOT to do so during the other dances. Frankly, I can't see a down side to this excpet that social dancers would not be ablt to go on the floor for every dance - but thats usually the case anyway since how many know steps for everything?I'm not particularly arguing with you. I don't see much of a problem with it, 'cept that no matter what anyone picks, there will always be someone who's unhappy about something. (I think people like, on a certain level, being unhappy and having something to gripe about.)

[Stagekat]

As one of the few purely social students at a rather competative studio, most of my DP are competative on some level... so I'm not intimidated by the competative dancers at all... I am however intimidated by the social dancers out and about at clubs that are kind of "wild cards" as far as leading (particularly in Latin)... but of late I'm improving in that area too.. I'd imagine if I could just climb over these last few hurdles of shyness I'll be all set... although it's taken a year and a half to get as comforable as I am...

[tanya_the_dancer]

Yeah, I sort of agree with Cal here, besides, a lot of times when something like VW is played, beginners do not take the floor anyway.

[elisedance]

Golly, it just doesn't sit well with me to attend a social dance and have certain dances "reserved" for competitors only. Are ALL competitors welcome on the floor or will the "open advanced" competitors want their own special dances so that they don't get tripped up by the "newcomer" competitors? What about the social dancers who have to sit out but who have more skills than the newcomer competitors? And the social dancers are supposed to be appreciative of the "treat"?

If there is a specific couple attending a social dance that just won a prestigious event and the organizers want them to perform, then arrange it beforehand and let everyone know the time that it will take place during the evening.

But to just have "general-competitors only" dances - umm... uh-uh.

If competitors want to dance full-out, there are venues for that: they are called competitions. And at those venues, social dancers won't wander onto your competition floor in the middle of your heat.

Nah- at a social dance, just work with what's there.


You can't go to a competition and dance full out there for the first time :) Preparing for competitions takes many, many hours of practise - 3-5 for each lesson and there are generally very few places to do that and no social enviroments so that does not solve the problem.

What you are saying seems to boil down to: experienced dancers who want to dance at the best of their abilities should not be allowed to do so in a social environment? Which is, IMO sadly, the current status quo.

However, perhaps I put it too literally? The point would be to have some dances where the expectation is that dancers are experience (not necessarily competitors) - there are obviously many social dancers that dance with a similar need for open floor space - the crucial issue is floorcraft. At present all dances favor the beginner, all I am suggesting is that a few favor the experienced dancer.

I suppose an alternative approach would be to talk a studio into having an advanced dancer social but I think that such a complete segregation would be more of a shame than what I propose.

[Cal]

You can't go to a competition and dance full out there for the first time :) Preparing for competitions takes many, many hours of practise - 3-5 for each lesson and there are generally very few places to do that and no social enviroments so that does not solve the problem.

What you are saying seems to boil down to: experienced dancers who want to dance at the best of their abilities should not be allowed to do so in a social environment? Which is, IMO sadly, the current status quo.

However, perhaps I put it too literally? The point would be to have some dances where the expectation is that dancers are experience (not necessarily competitors) - there are obviously many social dancers that dance with a similar need for open floor space - the crucial issue is floorcraft. At present all dances favor the beginner, all I am suggesting is that a few favor the experienced dancer.

I suppose an alternative approach would be to talk a studio into having an advanced dancer social but I think that such a complete segregation would be more of a shame than what I propose.

I don't know how to cut and paste quotes, so my reply will take a bit of back-and-forth with your comments.

As to your First comment: OF COURSE newcomer competitors are going "full-out" for their competitions! Maybe it's not to YOUR level, and maybe their energy isn't put to as efficient a use as YOUR energy, and maybe it doesn't use up as much space as YOUR movement - but please don't diminish the effort that newcomer competitors put into their practices. Forgive me for saying so, but you're coming across as rather elitist. I have a feeling that I'd certainly be dancer riff-raff to you!

As to your Second comment: "Experienced" dancers who want to dance to the "best of their abilities" should have the ability to adapt to what and who is on the floor. Period. Social or competition. If they have trouble adapting to a social floor, then, again forgive me, but perhaps their abilities need some improvement - or they should stay away from social floors. I have seen my pro and his partner go out on a social floor and adapt beautifully, without putting their "competition stuff" on the floor, but every bit of skill related to floorcraft and posture and adapting to the circumstances on the fly is "to the max" - and they had no problem doing so, and could do it precisely because they have the skill and experience to do so.

As to your Third comment: In my part of the world, every so often a studio WILL sponsor a "competition practice session" on a Saturday or Sunday and anyone can come and watch - and the dancers who show up are mostly the amateur competitors. Nevertheless, perhaps you SHOULD approach a likely studio in your area and see if they would hold such a dance session for you experienced dancers who don't like to have social dancers in your way. Maybe they would do it once a month. And, if they like, inexperienced dancers could come in, without charge, to watch and appreciate the experienced dancers.

But, on the whole, social dances are just that - they are social dances where you are expected to adapt to the dancers who are there. And yes, the skilled, experienced dancers need to adjust to the inexperienced dancers - that's just part of being experienced.

[Cal]

You can't go to a competition and dance full out there for the first time :) Preparing for competitions takes many, many hours of practise - 3-5 for each lesson and there are generally very few places to do that and no social enviroments so that does not solve the problem.

What you are saying seems to boil down to: experienced dancers who want to dance at the best of their abilities should not be allowed to do so in a social environment? Which is, IMO sadly, the current status quo.

However, perhaps I put it too literally? The point would be to have some dances where the expectation is that dancers are experience (not necessarily competitors) - there are obviously many social dancers that dance with a similar need for open floor space - the crucial issue is floorcraft. At present all dances favor the beginner, all I am suggesting is that a few favor the experienced dancer.

I suppose an alternative approach would be to talk a studio into having an advanced dancer social but I think that such a complete segregation would be more of a shame than what I propose.

I don't know how to cut and paste quotes, so my reply will take a bit of back-and-forth with your comments.

As to your First comment: OF COURSE newcomer competitors are going "full-out" for their competitions! Maybe it's not to YOUR level, and maybe their energy isn't put to as efficient a use as YOUR energy, and maybe it doesn't use up as much space as YOUR movement - but please don't diminish the effort that newcomer competitors put into their practices. Forgive me for saying so, but you're coming across as rather elitist. I have a feeling that I'd certainly be dancer riff-raff to you!

As to your Second comment: "Experienced" dancers who want to dance to the "best of their abilities" should have the ability to adapt to what and who is on the floor. Period. Social or competition. If they have trouble adapting to a social floor, then, again forgive me, but perhaps their abilities need some improvement - or they should stay away from social floors. I have seen my pro and his partner go out on a social floor and adapt beautifully, without putting their "competition stuff" on the floor, but every bit of skill related to floorcraft and posture and adapting to the circumstances on the fly is "to the max" - and they had no problem doing so, and could do it precisely because they have the skill and experience to do so.

As to your Third comment: In my part of the world, every so often a studio WILL sponsor a "competition practice session" on a Saturday or Sunday and anyone can come and watch - and the dancers who show up are mostly the amateur competitors. Nevertheless, perhaps you SHOULD approach a likely studio in your area and see if they would hold such a dance session for you experienced dancers who don't like to have social dancers in your way. Maybe they would do it once a month. And, if they like, inexperienced dancers could come in, without charge, to watch and appreciate the experienced dancers.

But, on the whole, social dances are just that - they are social dances where you are expected to adapt to the dancers who are there. And yes, the skilled, experienced dancers need to adjust to the inexperienced dancers - that's just part of being experienced.

[wooh]

double post

[wooh]

I also think that it would be nice if there were a couple of dances each evening that were reserved for competitors. This has three beneficial effects: first it gives them a chance to go all out and also enjoy the evening; second it gives them no excuse to practice open and floor-hogging moves when social dancers are out and, third, it provides the studio with an instant (and free) showcase opportunity where competitive dancing styles can be highlighted.

You're assuming that the competitiors would be more fun to watch as a showcase.
I'll also agree that they would need to be balanced with a few dances reserved for us social dancers. It would be nice to have a few that I'm not having to worry about the flying arms and bad floorcraft of the competitiors. Because even with a few competitive only songs, they'll still be screwing up the rest of the social for us social dancers.

[Peaches]

Um... I'm obviously not a mod, so everyone can feel totally free to ignore me on this. And, mods, please feel free to yank this post. But...

Without accusing anyone over anything...can we please keep this thread nice? I've found it interesting and useful so far in thinking of different ways to accommodate a wide range of dancers (speaking as someone on the far beginning end of it). I know things frequently descend into a social v. competitor debate, and it tends to bring up strong feelings...and I'd just really hate to see that happen.

So, again...I don't mean to offend or accuse anyone, and mods please feel free to moderate me. It just seems like things have the potential to devolve, and I'd hate to see that happen.

(OK...going away now.)

[wooh]

Going to agree with everything Cal has said.
Elise, I'll agree you're coming off as elitist. If us social dancers are in your way at a social, then go pay for floor practice time. The social dances are for social dancing. Like Cal said, I'm not wandering out onto the competition floor getting in your way when you're competing. So why should you expect special consideration when you wander out onto the social floor and I'm social dancing?

[wooh]

I know things frequently descend into a social v. competitor debate, and it tends to bring up strong feelings...and I'd just really hate to see that happen.


I'd say the thread started out as a social v competitor debate, no descending was necessary.

[wooh]

I'll add, not all competitive couples are "in my way." I'll often see one competitive couple from here out at the socials, and their floorcraft is impeccable. They're also one of the better competitive couples.
Perhaps there should just be a "good dancer social" and a "bad dancer social." Who gets to pick which dancers are allowed into each?:twisted:

[elisedance]

Cal, Woo: I'm sorry it comes accross that way - I fear there is some slippage into stereotypes here - something I fear I was doing too at least prior to my previous post. Since the consensus seems to be that competition dancers have no place doing competition style dancing at a social studio then if they want to hav a social dance life while doing dance in the way they are best at (as dancers specializing in social styles can) they have to set up competitor-only socials. If thats the solution its about as elitist as we can get - exclusion at the door. Or is the consensus that competitors simply should not be allowed to dance their best in a social setting at all?

[P: sure this is obviously a topic that evokes some emotions - but I do hope we have not broached the line where the discussion has become personal. If we have, then we should be moderated immediately but if not then I think the issue warrants more discussion. The central point - and that of the thread I think - is can social dancers and competitor dancers co-exist on the same dance floor and if so, must one, the other or both compromise their dance experience or can a way be found of comfortable co-existence?]

[Cal]

Elise, Perhaps I'm misunderstanding what your definition of "best" is: I've been assuming that your meaning of "dancing your best" and "full out" is to pull out your entire competition routine with full wing-span and no impediments on the floor requiring any deviation from your routine. A sort of "get out of my way" approach to dancing - it's certainly not "sociable." And, for better or for worse, no, I don't think that is what a social floor is for. My meaning of "dancing your best" is most definitely not that, and I don't enjoy dancing that way at social dances.

Instead, my definition of "dancing your best" includes being able to navigate in and out of less-experienced couples without disrupting them, and at the same time keeping posture lifted and movement balanced and leading/following one's partner with full trust and commitment and without disrupting his/her balance or movement - big or small as it may be under the circumstances. That is truly "social" dancing at its best.

Think of the pros who use a general dance as a warm-up before they go on the competition floor - they can't really go "all out" during a general dance, but the ones who (usually) dance best are the ones who can be on a social floor and adjust, melt, hover, flow, accelerate, re-direct seamlessly - all on the fly. That is something that I DO think is appropriate for a social floor.

But why would dancers who can do that need to have a special set of dancers reserved just for them? That's what I don't understand.

As I say, maybe I'm misinterpreting what your definition of "dancing your best".

[elisedance]

Good pickup Cal: I used the term 'dancing your best' rather than 'dancing routines' for exactly that reason. Its possible that anyone that has not participated in a competition - particular at silver and higher - may not realize this but the competition floor is not an endless zone where you can dance full out without regard for others on the floor.

During the early heats you may have so many couples - most I have had is 13 - that it is difficult to do anything other than basic moves and hope for the best. Under those situations much of the effort is directed to floorcraft, dancing as well as you can while avoiding collisions (and also avoiding being intimidated, its a fine line...). The pressure is on the lead to continue dancing well while respecting the needs of others. Thats when the follow really has to do her job and look as good with a complete ignorance of the next step as she would during a practiced routine. In the final there are typically 6 couples on the floor. With this density it is possible to perform routines but you still are subject to crowding.

I do NOT expect to do full routines on a social floor. I would, however, like to be able to dance as one does in a semi: lead/follow but still dancing in full position and 'dancing your best for the circumstances' with occasional slip into and out of routine sequences. The social floor is primarily that - a place for people to have fun dancing with their partner. I think we all agree with that. But for me to have fun dancing with my partner I need to be in position and to be able to dance as well as I can for the circumstance. At the moment most social studios work under the lowest common demoninator rule: dance is determined by the weakest dancer on the floor. I don't happen to agree that that shoulds always (note the always and please read above) be the case since it discriminates against the better trained dancers. How to achieve this? Well, I've made some suggestions but obviously the readers here do not agree.

[elisedance]

By the way, the suggestion that social dancers should then be allowed on the competition floor. I think this was probably stated rather fascetiously - but the point is they are, all they have to do is join the respective organization and pay entry fees (just as we do when we go to a social studio). However, then they would be catagorized as 'competitors' and not social dancers and would have gone over to the dark side :). Which would be great ;)

[Zhena]

...Since the consensus seems to be that competition dancers have no place doing competition style dancing at a social studio then if they want to hav a social dance life while doing dance in the way they are best at (as dancers specializing in social styles can) they have to set up competitor-only socials. If thats the solution its about as elitist as we can get - exclusion at the door. Or is the consensus that competitors simply should not be allowed to dance their best in a social setting at all?

... The central point - and that of the thread I think - is can social dancers and competitor dancers co-exist on the same dance floor and if so, must one, the other or both compromise their dance experience or can a way be found of comfortable co-existence?

I'm curious as to the reason for dividing the conflicting parties into two categories labeled "competitive" and "social" when my impression is the conflict is between two types of movement.

Elise, it sounds like you're in a situation where you would like to dance "full-out" at a social - at least partly because you and your partner don't have regular access to a suitable space to practice, but also partly because you really enjoy dancing with the speed and large movements that are necessary components of advanced competitive dancing. You feel restricted when you always end up having to reduce your speed and dance smaller to avoid contact with other dancers, particularly when they may not know (or care to use) enough floorcraft to avoid contact with you. You would like the organizers of the social to consider setting aside a few dances in which speed and large movements are allowed, or even encouraged.

This brings out a reaction from those who have seen too many instances of people dancing without regard to others on the floor - people who don't watch where they're going, people who use large sweeping gestures without checking to see if anyone else happens to be somewhere within their range of motion, people who seem to think that because they are "better" dancers they deserve a larger share of the limited floor space. (And I realize from the quality of your posts that you are polite and careful, so I'm not lumping you with those people.) Unfortunately, many of those who dance "expansive" and think they dance "better" happen to be competitors, so the conflict tends to be defined that way.

The real question is whether there is a way to allow for dancers who would like to swoop across the floor with arms extended in joyful abandon (yes, I know it's actually carefully controlled). Frankly, I would also like to experience that - I'm extremely envious of people who can pull it off.

If you choose to make a request, it may be wiser to phrase it in terms of requesting that the dj specify (for example) a "pure quickstep" dance where people should either dance quickstep or take responsibility for avoiding those moving quickly around the floor.

And if you could work with the other "expansive" dancers to agree to dance with more restraint during the other dances in excahnge for a couple of "full-out" dances per evening, your idea may be appreciated. This sounds like it needs the understanding and agreement of the majority of those attending the social, as well as the organizers.

I wish you luck!

[elisedance]

You got it Zhena - its in essence what I was suggesting earlier. I think I will actually try this - talking to the DJ and see if it can be accomodated.

What we generally do is turn up at the studio the moment the doors open so that we can get out on the floor and dance while there are few people there. Its something but a bit disappointing to finish your dancing in the first half hour of a 5 hour social!

Thanks for the post by the way, nicely put. :)

[waltzgirl]

I think the answer is to arrange separate competitors' "rounds," which many studios already do--a special session where only competitors practice, with the other couples providing the floorcraft challenges as they practice.

I think any segregation of the social dance floor is really not in the spirit of the event. And, in practice, I don't think it would work. Anyway you defined it would not necessarily keep the people you don't want to share the floor with off. If you called it a "competitor's dance," that would include newcomer and bronze competitors--and is there a time limit (I haven't competed in over a year; would I qualify? how about the 60year old lady who did tons of competitions 20 years ago? etc.)? It might work better if you defined it by level--silver or gold. Are there enough gold-level couples at these dances to justify keeping everyone else off the floor? In my area, there are quite a few social dancers who have learned a bunch of silver patterns and would therefore consider themselves silver dancers, but they don't move the way you describe yourself as dancing.

I'm afraid the bottom line is, if you don't enjoy the kind of dancing you can do at social dances, you don't have to dance there. You can practice on your own time to your heart's content or you can arrange rounds separate from the social dances.

[cornutt]

At the moment most social studios work under the lowest common demoninator rule: dance is determined by the weakest dancer on the floor.

What's throwing me as I try to follow this thread is that I do not usually observe this lowest-common-denominator effect at most of the dance floors we frequent. We dance on mixed-level floors all the time, with accomplished dancers of all stripes down to absolute first-time-at-the-party beginners, every week. And I have seldom noticed that the skills of the least able dancers are setting the limits for what everyone else can do. Most of the time, I can dance full-on competition mode on the floors around here if I want to (I don't always want to at a social). Floorcraft is challenging, yes, but it's not like I can step onto a competition floor and do without floorcraft.

Now, there are times on a social floor where conditions are going to reach the point that there are certain things you just can't do. Usually these involve things that travel a whole lot. When we get up to 20 or so couples on the floor at our studio, it's time to put away the silver waltz for a bit and dance bronze. Nothing wrong with that; there are plenty of "advanced" dancers who could stand to spend some time dancing bronze. :rolleyes: Wait until a bit later, and as the evening goes on the floor will clear out some and then we can break out the track-meet steps.

We always have a 10-minute or so break during our socials. During this time, anyone who wants to dance an exhibition is welcome to do so. I would think it would actually be a rare treat for many competitive couples to be able to dance their comp routine with the floor to themselves, in front of an audience.

The one time that I observe less skilled dancers really limiting what the more advanced dancers can do is when there are a lot of tyros on the floor. And by "tyro" in this context, I mean dancers who aren't nearly as good as they think they are. (Often but not always, these will be self-taught dancers who refuse to go for lessons because they don't think they need them.) These are the dancers who will really limit what other couples on the floor can do, because they force everyone around them to dance defensively (as in "defensive driving"). That's when the better dancers have to pull their punches. And quite frankly, the only solution is to avoid venues where there are a lot of tyro dancers. Fortunately, in my experience, you don't see very many tyro couples at studio socials. They tend to be more common at city social functions, and we've learned to lower our expectations whenever we attend such.

[and123]

Thanks for the post by the way, nicely put. :)

I agree. No matter where you go, you're going to encounter inconsiderate and/or oblivious people who infringe upon your dancing pleasure. Having a DJ announce "Only X-level dancers on the floor for this dance please" will still likely result in a number of people taking the floor who are legends in their own minds :rolleyes:, or make the n00bs feel inadequate and left out (to paraphrase Peaches, ya can't please everyone). Personally (and I very rarely go social dancing now), I found the best time to cut loose with the advanced/open movements was at the *end* of the evening when generally only the die-hards remained.

[waltzgirl]

I agree with cornutt. Most studio socials I go to involve dancers of many levels and, as long as the floor isn't too crowded, the most advanced dancers can dance pretty freely if they have decent floorcraft.

If the problem is really that the floor is too crowded, I agree that that's no fun. I went to a social at a studio recently where the crowd was just much too big for the floor. The travelling dances were awful--every other step was collision avoidance and the leaders had to pay so much attention to maneuvering that they weren't really paying attention to their followers. I'm not planning to go back to that studio's socials.

If crowding is the real problem, then the solution might be to find some fun ways to limit the number of couples on the floor for a few dances. Maybe only leaders with last initials A-J for one dance and the other letters the next. Or birthdays Jan-June, etc. Or hand out tickets or poker chips in several colors and for one dance, just the blue leaders have to dance with a blue follower and so on.

[jwlinson]

For me, personally, most of the fun of dancing at socials is finding ways to slip in our advanced moves while still utilizing excellent floorcraft. We are still able to do bits and pieces of routines we've worked on, and sometimes can do all of one. Besides, what better lead-and-follow practice can you get than having to negotiate a semi-crowded social floor where you may have to make a split-second change of direction.

At our studio socials we have all types; beginners, advanced, and all those in between. Some go to our studio, some come from others, and we all manage to coexist peacefully. If there is a really good couple using the floor, most of the time everyone else will just sit and watch. No need to say "the next dance will be just for these two advanced dancers," and if there happens to be another couple or five on the floor, no big deal.

I think it all boils down to respecting each other's dance space. I'll try to avoid getting in your way, and I'd like for you to avoid getting in mine. You can do whatever steps/figures/routines you want and I'll do whatever I want, as long as we both use them wisely and "floorcraftily."

[Joe]

If you want to practice your competition-level dancing, either attend a practice party or run your own. Social dances are for social dancing. Sure, you can dance comp-style there, but you'd better be ready to hit the brakes or navigate.

[elisedance]

Interestingly, one of the social studios I attend (it is not a teaching studio but purely for dancing) only plays one paso doble a night and it is announced as a 'showcase' event. Why? Because there are only two or three couples that dance it and all are advanced. the outcome is that everyone else gets to watch not just (moderately) high level paso doble but entire competition routines. This is generally a high-spot of the evening for the audience and I have never heard a complaint. Granted, paso doble is not a dance often learned by beginners but the feature illustrates the principle - let the competitors dance and the rest get an added bonus to their dancing experience, a real show.

Obviously I am swimming against the stream here but despite all, I suspect that much of the resistance is simply because 'it is not currently done' rather than 'it is a bad idea'. The way to test this is not here but to ask the social studio to experiment with the concept. I will do that and report back both on the studio response (which may make it moot) and - if they allow it - on the response of the social dancers, as best as I can guage it.

[JEM]

As a new dancer I don't find advanced/competitive dancers intimidating but more inspiring - I love to watch them dance! We've attended several social dances that have had demos at "half time" of either a competitive couple or a group of competitive dancers and everyone enjoyed the show. These dancers were also on the social floor and while you could tell they were excellent, they were not creating problems at all. These dances also encourage that all newer dancers stick to the middle and the very advanced dancers are to be allowed the outside of LOD so everything moves more smoothly - as new dancers we really appreciated having a "safer" area when we first attended socials. I'm thrilled when I get to dance w/one of these dancers during the mixers - have never had a bad experience - while I'm obviously new they are courteous while still dancing very well, giving me a great dance!

[Cal]

Yes, I've been to social dances like that, too, and yes, they are very nice. And yes, the "advanced" and "competition" dancers don't go "full-out" - they actually dance "socially". And the "half-time demonstrations" are usually very well recieved.

However, those social dances are advertised as having a "half-time demonstration" so that all attendees know what will be happening. And the performers know who they are in advance. A "show" is a bit different from "reserved" dances.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding Elise's intent, but I don't think she's promoting "half-time demonstrations". Certainly, if the venue held "half-time demos", she and her partner could volunteer to perform and she could get her "full-out" dancing - but I suspect that the organizers would rotate the performers at each dance, so she and her partner might not get to do a "full-out" competition routine each time.

What Elise seems to want are dances where the "inexperienced" are expected (told) to just sit down and watch. Well, gee, maybe I want to practice that particular dance at a level that is "full-out" for me, but, no - I'm not welcome on the floor at that time?

To me, that isn't the same thing as sitting out a dance such as PD because I haven't bothered to learn it. It's my choice not to learn it, and it's my choice to sit it out. Sure, I'll watch and see what I can learn - but it's not because I'm "expected" to sit down and watch better dancers.

On the same note, if, say, Katusha and Arunas were ever social dancing among the riff-raff like me, maybe I would stop, sit down, and watch and learn - maybe I wouldn't. But that would be MY choice, not theirs.

[tanya_the_dancer]

I agree. No matter where you go, you're going to encounter inconsiderate and/or oblivious people who infringe upon your dancing pleasure. Having a DJ announce "Only X-level dancers on the floor for this dance please" will still likely result in a number of people taking the floor who are legends in their own minds :rolleyes:, or make the n00bs feel inadequate and left out (to paraphrase Peaches, ya can't please everyone). Personally (and I very rarely go social dancing now), I found the best time to cut loose with the advanced/open movements was at the *end* of the evening when generally only the die-hards remained.

It seems like it is a common situation that more advanced competitors do not social dance a lot. I remember somebody commenting about a "talent drain" from social dancing meaning that more serious dancers move on to competition and eventually drop out of social dancing.

[wooh]

Once again, agreeing with everything Cal said.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding Elise's intent, but I don't think she's promoting "half-time demonstrations". Certainly, if the venue held "half-time demos", she and her partner could volunteer to perform and she could get her "full-out" dancing - but I suspect that the organizers would rotate the performers at each dance, so she and her partner might not get to do a "full-out" competition routine each time.

And the solution for doing a full-out comp routine is to go pay for floor time to practice or go dance at a competition. Not to take away from other dancers' social dance time. If you want to social dance, go to a social. If you want to comp dance, go to a comp.

What Elise seems to want are dances where the "inexperienced" are expected (told) to just sit down and watch. Well, gee, maybe I want to practice that particular dance at a level that is "full-out" for me, but, no - I'm not welcome on the floor at that time?
And perhaps MY full-out as a social dancer is bigger and better than a comp dancers? Why is a newcomer competitor welcome but a silver or gold level social dancer is not? Assuming it's the social dancers slowing her down is well, assuming. And we all know what happens when one assumes. So instead, we'll need to say, "Only GOOD dancers allowed on the floor!" And then when dancers that Elise finds in the way try to get out there, "Oh no, not YOU! You're not good enough!" Which is oh so very in the spirit of a social dance.
To me, that isn't the same thing as sitting out a dance such as PD because I haven't bothered to learn it. It's my choice not to learn it, and it's my choice to sit it out. Sure, I'll watch and see what I can learn - but it's not because I'm "expected" to sit down and watch better dancers.

Especially when the "better" dancers are only "better" by virtue that they're competitors. I've watched pros perform. I've watched top amateurs perform. I'm often more entertained by beginners. If I'm expected to sit down and watch "better" dancers, then they better be putting on a show, not just practicing.
On the same note, if, say, Katusha and Arunas were ever social dancing among the riff-raff like me, maybe I would stop, sit down, and watch and learn - maybe I wouldn't. But that would be MY choice, not theirs.
Agreed, I will often choose to sit and watch better dancers (whether better competitive or better social dancers), but unless it's a show, I shouldn't be expected to sit out. Especially if I paid my hard-earned money to go to a social dance, where I expect to social dance.

[elisedance]

Cal: you are putting words into my mouth. That is not fair and not nice. At no time have I said anyone has to sit out or is excluded from the floor. If you do not understand something then please do me the courtesy and ask.

And that is the last I will contribute to this discussion.

[kayak]

Sometime floor space is at a premium for sure. My little story from a couple months ago is:

At a dance recently our floor was so crowded that we could hardly fit. We were dancing swing and the couple next to us figured out we were doing pretty well. So when I led my lady out of the space, he would swing his partner in to that space and when he led her out, I would swing my partner in to the same space. This couple was really good. So once the four of us had a handle on our shared little dance space, they could pull off wonderful low flips and never hit any of us. It was very cool.

If they had the whole dance floor, no doubt they could have been doing these huge lifts and having all kinds of fun. With absolutely no space, they still pulled off great moves that were just much more compact and still had all kinds of fun.

[Cal]

Cal: you are putting words into my mouth. That is not fair and not nice. At no time have I said anyone has to sit out or is excluded from the floor. If you do not understand something then please do me the courtesy and ask.

And that is the last I will contribute to this discussion.

My apologies for offending you.

I had not intended to put words into your mouth - obviously, I just don't "get it" as to who is or is not intended to be on the floor during reserved dances.

[DennisBeach]

What's throwing me as I try to follow this thread is that I do not usually observe this lowest-common-denominator effect at most of the dance floors we frequent. We dance on mixed-level floors all the time, with accomplished dancers of all stripes down to absolute first-time-at-the-party beginners, every week. And I have seldom noticed that the skills of the least able dancers are setting the limits for what everyone else can do. Most of the time, I can dance full-on competition mode on the floors around here if I want to (I don't always want to at a social). Floorcraft is challenging, yes, but it's not like I can step onto a competition floor and do without floorcraft.


We have had the same experience as you. I find the challenge of dancing well in a mixed situation, part of the fun of dancing. I also see the problem is people with horrid floor craft, rather than advanced versus beginner. We take into account the floor situations we encounter, in building our moves for each dance, so we can dance advanced moves in the situations we encounter.

Last dance we were at was crowded at times. There was a young competive couple there and they used moves that would fit the situation and were able to dance at their normal level, without being a problem.

[elisedance]

I did say that I would not post any more but I think it only right to say that that Cal and I have corresponded and now see eye to eye.

Let me clarify my thought here as I did privately to Cal:
"The idea is simply to announce that the next dance will be for experienced dancers. Anyone that wants to can then get on the floor but the beginners will be forwarned that people will be going all- out. No exclusion except self exclusion - and I think it would work."

I hope that makes the idea clear and resolves the misunderstanding with Cal and possibly others here.

[etp777]

I'm not sure that would work, but it makes sense to me (as has been said, no way to make everyone happy every time).

What I find a bigger problem (when it happens), though somewhat OT, is not when dancers dance too big, but the other side, when the people running dance cause the problem. Was visiting another studio whose floor has good length, but is maybe half as wide as at our studio. Reallly just room enough for LOD down each side, and no real middle. Beginner party though, so they were trying to be flexible and let everyone dance. Problem was when they put song on, and pointed out (correctly), that you could dance a slower ECS, rumba, or foxtrot to it. THen proceeded to tell everyone to do what they wanted. With a larger floor, that'd be fine. Do rhythm in center or in corners, FT LOD around the outside. WIth small floor, and floor full of beginners, was just miserable, people crashing into each other all over. And this wasn't the dancers' faults, they didn't know any better. Was fault of person running the dance. They meant well, but it worked out poorly.

[Terpsichorean Clod]

...my definition of "dancing your best" includes being able to navigate in and out of less-experienced couples without disrupting them, and at the same time keeping posture lifted and movement balanced and leading/following one's partner with full trust and commitment and without disrupting his/her balance or movement - big or small as it may be under the circumstances. That is truly "social" dancing at its best.
Sounds like good competitive dancing, too. Two of the most important things in social dancing: movement and floorcraft. Two of the most important things in competitive dancing: movement and floorcraft. Hmmm...so why, or how, are we making a distinction between social and competitive dancers? Or are we trying to separate the two by using bad dancing and good dancing as proxies? :eyebrow:

I suspect that a bit of the...ahem...discussion stems from differences in social scenes. That in elise's scene, social dancers tend to correlate with furniture clogging line of dance. That in wooh's scene, competitive dancers tend to correlate with heedless movement. That elise is a conscientious competitor who dances to the best of her ability within the constraints of floorcraft. That wooh is a very capable social dancer who keeps up with the flow of traffic, whether with the worst or best of dancers. I would bet my savaged pair of Very Fines and two shoebrushes that if you put a bunch of competitive dancers, like elise, and a bunch of social dancers, like wooh, on the same floor, everyone would rub along very nicely. :cheers: In fact, I think one might have difficulty telling apart the social from the competitive dancers.

(mind, I'm not ascribing anything to the OPs, both of whom I like) I think that threads like, "Does social dance help or harm a competitive dancer?" and "Are social dancers intimidated by competitive ones?", by their very title, are not exactly nice to social dancers.

[wooh]

Another forum I go to has an applause smiley. If we had it here, that's what TC would be getting.:)

[Terpsichorean Clod]

Thanks, wooh!

Actually, we do... :applause: (indulging in a little self-conceit)

[etp777]

hahaha. :)

[wooh]

:applause:
Well there it is! I searched the list twice!

So....

:applause: for your post

and....

:applause: for finding me the applause smilie!

[elisedance]

add one from me too.OK?

[jwlinson]

http://www.paducahdanceacademy.com/icon-applause.gif

[and123]

:rocker:

[basicarita]

You know what?

Here's the only thing I'd say.

To me (getting mowed down aside), the joy of dance is about losing yourself in the music with your partner. That's when I feel like I'm really dancing.

Maybe it sounds a little Zen and stupid and naive, but if you're paying that much attention to how another couple makes you feel on the floor, you're not paying enough attention to your own dancing.

[elisedance]

Personally, I think you are right on. However, each person here gets something different out of dance. we sometimes talk about the zen thing - the gettin lost in it but my impression is that achieving this takes a rather different set of circumstances and whaterver for eac person. Also, if your goal is winning a competition thnn the zen thing may be a distant second factor (though one could easil argue - and I have - that achieving the zen state is exactlhy what the judges (should be?) are looking for.

[fascination]

Sounds like good competitive dancing, too. Two of the most important things in social dancing: movement and floorcraft. Two of the most important things in competitive dancing: movement and floorcraft. Hmmm...so why, or how, are we making a distinction between social and competitive dancers? Or are we trying to separate the two by using bad dancing and good dancing as proxies? :eyebrow:

I suspect that a bit of the...ahem...discussion stems from differences in social scenes. That in elise's scene, social dancers tend to correlate with furniture clogging line of dance. That in wooh's scene, competitive dancers tend to correlate with heedless movement. That elise is a conscientious competitor who dances to the best of her ability within the constraints of floorcraft. That wooh is a very capable social dancer who keeps up with the flow of traffic, whether with the worst or best of dancers. I would bet my savaged pair of Very Fines and two shoebrushes that if you put a bunch of competitive dancers, like elise, and a bunch of social dancers, like wooh, on the same floor, everyone would rub along very nicely. :cheers: In fact, I think one might have difficulty telling apart the social from the competitive dancers.

(mind, I'm not ascribing anything to the OPs, both of whom I like) I think that threads like, "Does social dance help or harm a competitive dancer?" and "Are social dancers intimidated by competitive ones?", by their very title, are not exactly nice to social dancers.:cheers:more kudos here

[fascination]

You know what?

Here's the only thing I'd say.

To me (getting mowed down aside), the joy of dance is about losing yourself in the music with your partner. That's when I feel like I'm really dancing.

Maybe it sounds a little Zen and stupid and naive, but if you're paying that much attention to how another couple makes you feel on the floor, you're not paying enough attention to your own dancing.
and to add to what TC said, I think this is true for most people who understand the spirit of why they love to dance, whether socially or competitively as well....

[Peaches]

You know what?

Here's the only thing I'd say.

To me (getting mowed down aside), the joy of dance is about losing yourself in the music with your partner. That's when I feel like I'm really dancing.

Maybe it sounds a little Zen and stupid and naive, but if you're paying that much attention to how another couple makes you feel on the floor, you're not paying enough attention to your own dancing.Well, speaking as the only person on DF, apparently, who does get intimidated, I'll say this...

Yeah, the joy of dancing is about losing yourself in the music with your partner. And if you're paying enough attention to other couples then you're not focusing enough on yourself. But it's REALLY freakin' hard to get to the point of concentrating on your own dancing when the insecurity precedes it, and you're your own worst critic...and you can't get that critic out of your head enough or long enough to concentrated on the dancing. It's not a simple on/off switch, it's not as simple as "dealing with it" or "getting over it," and it's not easy to drown out that voice in your head and focus on your own dancing.

Or...maybe it's more correct to say that it's not easy to pay attention to your own dancing in a way that's anything other than purely negative. I'm concentrating on my own dancing all right--on just how much I suck, what I just effed up, and wondering what else I've effed up that I don't even know.

With all due respect to F, you can understand the spirit of why you love to dance all you want. It doesn't necessarily make a difference.

[DrDoug]

But it's REALLY freakin' hard to get to the point of concentrating on your own dancing when the insecurity precedes it, and you're your own worst critic...and you can't get that critic out of your head enough or long enough to concentrated on the dancing. It's not a simple on/off switch, it's not as simple as "dealing with it" or "getting over it," and it's not easy to drown out that voice in your head and focus on your own dancing.


That has nothing to do with other dancers, though.

The good news is that you can learn to quiet your inner critic. Doing so is not easy, but it's easier than learning how to dance, IME.

[fascination]

Well, speaking as the only person on DF, apparently, who does get intimidated, I'll say this...

Yeah, the joy of dancing is about losing yourself in the music with your partner. And if you're paying enough attention to other couples then you're not focusing enough on yourself. But it's REALLY freakin' hard to get to the point of concentrating on your own dancing when the insecurity precedes it, and you're your own worst critic...and you can't get that critic out of your head enough or long enough to concentrated on the dancing. It's not a simple on/off switch, it's not as simple as "dealing with it" or "getting over it," and it's not easy to drown out that voice in your head and focus on your own dancing.

Or...maybe it's more correct to say that it's not easy to pay attention to your own dancing in a way that's anything other than purely negative. I'm concentrating on my own dancing all right--on just how much I suck, what I just effed up, and wondering what else I've effed up that I don't even know.

With all due respect to F, you can understand the spirit of why you love to dance all you want. It doesn't necessarily make a difference.and with all due respect to you....i still maintain that the solution is as simple and yet very very hard as getting over it...you have to see being "effed up" as the enemy...you really have no other choice...didn't say easy, just simple......as in not complex...trust me...doing rumba walks with all the sensual styling and all is enough to send me scurrying to my cave of "I can't do this".....but then every dollar spent is wasted and I might as well not even be on the lesson...b/c one can't have the posture to even pray that it will work out feeling that way.

[Peaches]

That has nothing to do with other dancers, though.

The good news is that you can learn to quiet your inner critic. Doing so is not easy, but it's easier than learning how to dance, IME.Not fundamentally, no. But the proximity turns up the volume on the critic.

I think I'd argue the reverse when it comes to ease of learning v. ease of turning off the critic.

[Peaches]

and with all due respect to you....i still maintain that the solution is as simple and yet very very hard as getting over it...you have to see being "effed up" as the enemy...you really have no other choice...didn't say easy, just simple......as in not complex...trust me...doing rumba walks with all the sensual styling and all is enough to send me scurrying to my cave of "I can't do this".....but then every dollar spent is wasted and I might as well not even be on the lesson...b/c one can't have the posture to even pray that it will work out feeling that way.True.

And some of us choose not to fight our demons, but, rather, to give them their space and find another way.

[etp777]

I wholeheartedly agree with Peaches. If we ignore the demons, or even better, run halfway around the world to get away from them, maybe they'll go away, or at least stop bothering us. :)

[Peaches]

I wholeheartedly agree with Peaches. If we ignore the demons, or even better, run halfway around the world to get away from them, maybe they'll go away, or at least stop bothering us. :)Lol. I figure, give them their space to do their thing, I'll go about doing my thing. Generally, I aim for a state of mutual respect. Detente, if you will. Fighting them just makes things worse.

[DrDoug]

Not fundamentally, no. But the proximity turns up the volume on the critic.


Both the critical thoughts and the extent to which we let them affect us are entirely within our own minds and, for most of us, entirely controllable. If you choose to be intimidated, go right ahead, but you're intimidating yourself; other dancers are not intimidating you.

[fascination]

True.

And some of us choose not to fight our demons, but, rather, to give them their space and find another way.
those are prolly the smart ones;)

[fascination]

I wholeheartedly agree with Peaches. If we ignore the demons, or even better, run halfway around the world to get away from them, maybe they'll go away, or at least stop bothering us. :)
that is unlikely...you just have to get really really sick of them...and of what they have made of you:rolleyes:...only IME

[Peaches]

that is unlikely...you just have to get really really sick of them...and of what they have made of you:rolleyes:...only IMEGood point...that's how I finally tried dancing to begin with. Got tired of not doing things b/c I was scared to try.

[etp777]

ha, true, true. I was just going to repsond to your comment about it being smart to avoid them or whatever. I think there's time and place for both. And being ready for it (either because you're sick of them, or you've gotten the necessary strength, or wahtever), is definitely the key. Fight the demons before you're ready, and it'll just cause you more pain and frsturation, and drive you farther from your goal. Wait utnil you're ready, and they don't stand a chance. :)

[etp777]

Dang it, both of you keep typing responses while I"m in the middle of writing mine. :P

[fascination]

exactly P...the only power demons have are the ones we give them

[fascination]

lol...fast women

[Peaches]

ha, true, true. I was just going to repsond to your comment about it being smart to avoid them or whatever. I think there's time and place for both. And being ready for it (either because you're sick of them, or you've gotten the necessary strength, or wahtever), is definitely the key. Fight the demons before you're ready, and it'll just cause you more pain and frsturation, and drive you farther from your goal. Wait utnil you're ready, and they don't stand a chance. :)Very, very true.

The intimidation thing is a comparatively recent phenomenon. It didn't start until this spring, when I got to the point of possibly quitting altogether. One of these days I'll get back to it and deal with the fear, but I need to let it sit for now. I need to work through some things in my own head before I can go tackling things.

In the meantime, I'm just having a blast with AT, and pouring my heart into that.

[fascination]

am learning that the whole "heart pouring" thing is something I have to monitor....though my natural tendency...I loved the line from that clint eastwood movie...um...about the female boxer...name escapes me now...Morgan Freeman has this great line about how the only guy he knows who boxed from the heart basically got his...rear..kicked in...that was the day I started dancing from my guts instead of my heart...b/c it is just way too volatile...my guts on the other hand are very dependable

[Peaches]

am learning that the whole "heart pouring" thing is something I have to monitor....though my natural tendency...I loved the line from that clint eastwood movie...um...about the female boxer...name escapes me now...Morgan Freeman has this great line about how the only guy he knows who boxed from the heart basically got his...rear..kicked in...that was the day I started dancing from my guts instead of my heart...b/c it is just way too volatile...my guts on the other hand are very dependableLOL...I don't think I have guts! I'm just trying to overcome dancing from my brain!

[samina]

huh. dancing from heart vs. guts... gonna have to think about that one... not sure am getting the difference...

[etp777]

Fasc, it's Million Dollar Baby. Now that you've said that, may avhe to dig that dvd out again.

Heh, and I don't dance from heart or guts, which is why I have pro to tell me to quit being timid on th efloor. :/

[fascination]

yea...that's it...he is referring to that young gawky kid

[elisedance]

Heh, and I don't dance from heart or guts, which is why I have pro to tell me to quit being timid on th efloor. :/

Just dance from the head and gradually work your way down :cool:

[etp777]

Heh, yeah, I got the head part down. That's why I get the "What are you thinking?" "I can see you thinking" etc. :) And not just from pro, but from my regular partners too. :)

[lcdancesport]

That's kind of my problem too, I try to be too technical then I realize I need to just relax and not think about every little thing, because I know it, now I just need to let go and do it. This usually only happens when I dance with my teacher though because I want to look good.

[danceronice]

Heh, yeah, I got the head part down. That's why I get the "What are you thinking?" "I can see you thinking" etc. :) And not just from pro, but from my regular partners too. :)

I get "Stop thinking!" from my Smooth/Standard pro. I get that a lot.

[Peaches]

I get "Stop thinking!" from my Smooth/Standard pro. I get that a lot.Got it the other day in my AT lesson. Was complimented on doing something well...and then it was followed up by him telling me to do it again, except with good technique so it just happened, instead of me thinking about it and analyzing it and then doing it. *sigh*

[Joe]

lol...fast women
Oh, really? :raisebro:

[etp777]

hahah, was REALLY hard for me not to comment on that one when she said it yesterday. :)

[fascination]

Oh, really? :raisebro::cool:I was referring to Peaches of course;)

[Peaches]

:cool:I was referring to Peaches of course;)Riiiiiight, Mrs. Tequila Makes My Clothes Fall Off.

[elisedance]

Better not drink and drive then...

[fascination]

Riiiiiight, Mrs. Tequila Makes My Clothes Fall Off.:tongue::tongue::tongue::tongue:

[SPratt74]

That's kind of my problem too, I try to be too technical then I realize I need to just relax and not think about every little thing, because I know it, now I just need to let go and do it. This usually only happens when I dance with my teacher though because I want to look good.

I had this problem at my work holiday party! What was worse is that I realized it's very hard for me to not want to partner dance during any kind of dance music now. I'm not even sure that I can go back to solo dancing. It feels a bit weird for me lol! ;)

[bordertangoman]

huh. dancing from heart vs. guts... gonna have to think about that one... not sure am getting the difference...

Guts is more primal and involves more or other emotions; heart is something purer
maybe an analogy would be musical;

heart would be a pure note
guts would be a more complex chord harmony or even disharmony

[fascination]

meh...I think for me it is that "gut" is a steady reliable space, not so fragile, more confident....a heart can be broken far more easily...so dancing from my gut, my determined space, tends to be a space of strength...alot of it comes from the concept of the enneagram, if anyone has ever done it...alot like the meyers-briggs

[DanceMentor]

I think some less experienced dancers are intimidated by some more experienced dancers, social or competitive having nothing to do with it. "Competitive" doesn't neccesarily mean "better." I would say my husband and I are better dancers than quite a few competitive couples in the area that show up at the occasional social. And I know one other primarily social couple that is a LOT better than a lot of the competitive couples in the area.
As far as barreling down the floor, I do get annoyed with a few competitive couples mowing down the floor, because they have NO FLOORCRAFT and can't veer off their routine. That wouldn't be because I'm intimidated by them, but because I think they have things they need to work on before they get on a social floor. I'd be happy for them to have a competitive couple only social to go to, so they aren't making a mess of our floor!

When we go social dancing, we don't do our routines at all. It just doesn't work, especially at a crowded party (especially ballroom, less latin). An experienced competitive couple can dance with good floorcraft, whether that be at a party or a competition.

There truly are some great social dancers that could surely compete and do well.

[DennisBeach]

When we go social dancing, we don't do our routines at all. It just doesn't work, especially at a crowded party (especially ballroom, less latin). An experienced competitive couple can dance with good floorcraft, whether that be at a party or a competition.

There truly are some great social dancers that could surely compete and do well.

Having danced socially for 6.5 years. I have not had a problem with competitive dancers or social dancers who move the way you are suppose to on a dance floor. Full sized movement with proper technique, gives people a lot of control over their movement and rarely do they cause problems. Problem is certain people, who think collision avoidance is every else's responsibility. Fortunately these people usually quit coming after getting a lot of glares from other dancers.