Haters of Dancesport - "Real" Latin American Dancing

[tuftufwang]

Hey DFers, I recently got into an online argument with someone who is very adamant that dancesport (Latin in particular) is a false and wrong (I think he feels it's a crime) interpretation of Latin American dances. He/she went as far as to say that dancesport is a "bastardization" of Latin American dances. I have noticed that there are many such people who have similar views on dancesport and they have very strong feelings that the samba we do is a gross misrepresentation of their culture. My argument then is that dancesport competitors/dancers are not deluded into thinking that the samba we are trained in is in any shape or form a classical interpretation of a Brazilian samba danced at the Brazilian street carnivals. At least I don't. I think we have "borrowed" elements of dances from Cuban and Brazilian roots and created a different dance form that has evolved over the years. I don't think that the cha and rumba we do are the classical cha and rumba danced traditionally in Cuba or in South America. I do acknowledge and respect other dance forms like Salsa, Argentine Tango, Brazilian Samba, etc. What I don't understand is why these people HATE ballroom dancing so much to the extent of getting really offended by the very existence of dancesport. This poster said " If you had a "healthy" respect for latin dances you would not be supporting this style of dance. " in response to my comment when I said that if I can be respectful of your culture and beliefs, why can't you do the same? He/she also went as far as to say that
" They slam it so much because it's just bad and such a false expression and representation of the dances they love "

To follow this argument, you can view this at

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fc1olApE-ug&feature=PlayList&p=A1DD8DF02B6AD80F&index=97

In retrospect, I should have let the matter rest since I was obviously arguing with someone who is very opinionated and intolerant. Anyway, I was wondering if people ever had encounters with other dancers who really hate Latin dancing and what do you say in response. Or perhaps the smarter way is to let it go since you can't overcome extreme stubbornness and ignorance anyway?

[MissBallroomBear]

What an idiot.

[tsb]

just by reading DF posts you can find evidence of the same kind of intolerance within dancesport. so what's the big deal?

[noobster]

Geez, why'd you even get into it? You're not going to change that guy's mind. He has a gut reaction to that dancing, your talking to him isn't going to fix anything. (I have to say my own gut reaction to it is not dissimilar - though that won't make me very popular around here - but I don't see the need to try and prevent people from enjoying their own activities.)

What I don't understand is why these people HATE ballroom dancing so much to the extent of getting really offended by the very existence of dancesport.
I dunno, I might feel more strongly if I actually came from one of the cultures in question myself. It has to be hard to see something you love that has 'evolved' into something you hate but kept the original name.

Think about how annoyed DFers are when bad versions of their various dances show up on TV. They get annoyed because "people will think that's what X dance *really* is." Now multiply that feeling x1000 because the original is also bound up with the culture and people of your birth. Can't you see the youtube poster's point of view?

[Laura]

I agree with your assessment that ballroom/dancesport is a style all its own and that it has taken a lot from the 'culturally-true' Latin American forms and mixed it with a lot of strong European influences. I don't know anyone in ballroom/dancesport who thinks that the ballroom/dancesport form is anything but its own thing -- interesting and exciting for its own sake, and definitely different from the 'culturally-true' forms.

It's interesting when I read about the origins of some of the 'native' Latin American dances. Everything comes from somewhere, and current street forms grew out of older traditions and folk dances. Do people in Africa complain about how the Cubans and Brazilians have taken some of their ancient dances and rhythms and created things like Rumba and Samba out of them?

Is there to never be any evolution and cross-fertilization of art forms? Especially an art form that is passed on directly from teacher to student rather than as book learning?

[fascination]

neither is a taco bell taco a real taco...but I love them nonetheless...shrug...people get their underwear in a knot over the strangest things

[mamboqueen]

neither is a taco bell taco a real taco...

you need to copyright that one ;)

[Auntie Crazy]

The attitude is not in any way limited to this genre of dance. I am also a newbie belly dancer and belong to several BD forums - after reading some of those posts, you'd think only folks born and bred to the art have the right to even attempt it. *sigh*

All art changes. It's inevitable. Cherish the traditional, of course - it's heritage/history and should be valued - but not to the point of stifling natural evolution. That every generation is different than its predecessors is self-evident; so, too, will be their artistic expressions.

And no one, no matter how steeped in their particular tradition, is going to tell me how I can or cannot interpret the music I listen to or the dances I perform. If one doesn't like what I'm doing, he/she is certainly under no obligation to dance with or watch me. :tongue:

A.C.

[mamboqueen]

I actually enjoyed the video; anyone know who the couples are: lady w/blue dress, lady w/black floral dress?


And *please dance Gods above* don't ever give me the song "Feelings" to rumba to. Please!

[Josh]

I've always taken the opinion that Laura gave above: all art forms, including dancing, evolve. Everything in this world evolves over time, and that's a good thing! Maybe people who are perpetually stuck in the past should also not use electricity or drive cars, since their ancestors didn't either. And I hope they know that the "roots" of the dances they're talking about also were changed from earlier versions (big DUH there).

[latingal]

I have to say I'm one of those that don't even bother to get in to it with folks who wish to bash dancesport for not staying "true to it's roots". In my humble experiences, the whole thing seems to be stuck in labels and looks, while I would rather look at whatever it is and enjoy.

[cornutt]

Culture, schmulture. I used to get this in music: people who would say, "My music is authentic and real. Your music is bogus." There's a phrase for people like this: pompous jerk. :rolleyes:

[jwlinson]

...it makes one wonder if the Austrians are upset that "our version" of the Viennese waltz has leftward-turning turns...

It's still fun.

[dgcasey]

Tell a European that you like football, they will think, "great!" Until, of course, they realize that you mean NFL football, then they turn up their noses at you.

Latin and South Americans can turn up their noses all they want about how we dance, but as one philosopher put it, "no one is squeezing through the fences to get into Mexico."

[Angel HI]

The fellow whom the OP is referencing is either ignorant, immature, or both. i agree with others who have said, "Do not engage with these people".

That being said, I am one who has definite bias against DS...not because it is not true to nativity or origins, but because of what it does to BR. IMO, the powers that be, in a rather infantile approach to make BR more sportive for the Olympics, allowed other art forms to overtake BR to the point of almost destroying it completely. Dancers who haven't a technical clue how to do a correct latin step have been awarded championships in the name of DS rather than judges requiring these persons to, yes, interject their sport, but learn the craft. Thank God for intern. standard.

Now, that having been said, Laura's post is spot on.

I agree with your assessment that ballroom/dancesport is a style all its own and that it has taken a lot from the 'culturally-true' Latin American forms and mixed it with a lot of strong European influences. I don't know anyone in ballroom/dancesport who thinks that the ballroom/dancesport form is anything but its own thing -- interesting and exciting for its own sake, and definitely different from the 'culturally-true' forms.

It's interesting when I read about the origins of some of the 'native' Latin American dances. Everything comes from somewhere, and current street forms grew out of older traditions and folk dances. Do people in Africa complain about how the Cubans and Brazilians have taken some of their ancient dances and rhythms and created things like Rumba and Samba out of them?

Is there to never be any evolution and cross-fertilization of art forms? Especially an art form that is passed on directly from teacher to student rather than as book learning?

[meow]

I like to think I can listen to other opinions, some of which I may totally disagree with, and be able to respect that they are entitled to their opinion and I to mine. Unfortunately, some cannot accept any opinions other than their own - best to avoid conversations with those types.

[madmaximus]

I suppose tunnel vision is never productive.

For instance, one wonders how the people of the Congo (or thereabouts) feel about the Brazilian Samba--which was supposedly "bastardized" from their beloved SEMBA (lit. 'belly-button').




m

[tangotime]

...it makes one wonder if the Austrians are upset that "our version" of the Viennese waltz has leftward-turning turns...

It's still fun.

You would be surprised how many do !!

[tangotime]

let me play devils advocate for a moment--- there is not one response (that I know of ) from a " latino " .So this is in their defence .

Having worked and lived among them for more than half my long life , you have to respect their disdain for the erosion of their culture ( their words, not mine ). Of course they object to the dance forms that " We " attach lables to, as though " we " were the source for all that is correct , musically and structurally .

Until you have stood on both side of the proverbial fence, one should not dismiss their claims in a cavalier fashion.

Ive listened to this debate , a hundred times, and the division still exists. No one denies ( I would hope ) that the dances we do today in ALL the comp. division , bare little resemblance to their original forms ( evolution ? yes-- for the better ? debatable ) .

What the poster stated , was done with the same passion that eveyone defends in this sector .
Let me leave you with this thought-- came a time when " Tea for 2 " was considered the best Cha music available . :doh:

[fascination]

a fair point TT...if ,in fact, it had anything to do with the erosion of a culture..however, I think it is far more like taking an ingredient that is widely used in one cluture and putting it in another recipe....I can appreciate the desire to see some sort of "disclaimer regarding authenticity"...but I think it a bit melodramatic for anyone to equate it with some sort of cultural degradation...not every passionate feeling ,even those attached to ballroom, is to be admired....but certainly those sentiments are legitimately held and the persons who have them feel that they are valid...shrug...maybe they are...I just don't see it

[Peaches]

Meh. I can kind of see the point, but not to the point of hating dancesport or refusing to even engage with it or what-have-you. It certainly isn't authentic, and when you know and love the dance that something originated from, it can be pretty disheartening to see what it's become. But, so long as it's approached as a separate art form, no harm done.

I just hate it when people start coming up for all kinds of wacky, b.s. reasons for why BR tango is the way it is. Smelly gauchos with sweat-stiff chaps and all that nonsense...give me a break. :-)

[tangotime]

a fair point TT...if ,in fact, it had anything to do with the erosion of a culture..however, I think it is far more like taking an ingredient that is widely used in one cluture and putting it in another recipe....I can appreciate the desire to see some sort of "disclaimer regarding authenticity"...but I think it a bit melodramatic for anyone to equate it with some sort of cultural degradation...not every passionate feeling ,even those attached to ballroom, is to be admired....but certainly those sentiments are legitimately held and the persons who have them feel that they are valid...shrug...maybe they are...I just don't see it


Just to make it clear-- i am as passionate as the next when it comes to B/ Room ( I was raised on it ) the " erosion " to which I am referring, is probably more applicable to the salsa genre ( ya know, the acrobatics etc. )--- but-- one has to admit ( I hope ), that what Pierre did to Bolero ( he changed the concept to Intern. ? rumba-- the cubans luv this one ! ) when the dance stands on its own as a very viable and more culturally accepted format .

There again-- the English just about re shaped everything in social dance == improvement ?-- moot point .

[fascination]

I follow you :)

[White Chacha]

Not to be flippant, but it would be amusing to have, um, "exotic dancers" start to bash the trend of pole dance exercise classes as unauthentic and and erosion of a culture...

[rjcbear]

Well I guess I will put my little 2 cents into this thread.

As a Latino myself I must say what we dance as socially or competitively is highly evolve but lord is very elegant and I will not change anything at all. Is it human nature to make it better?

This Summer my Mother and my Aunt were here in the States visiting from South America and they came to every social dance that DW and I went, they attended some of our lessons and we took them to Dance World summer showcase. After the showcase My Aunt's commented and said "Muy bonito y muy Elegante" translation "Very beautiful and very Elegant" and Mom added the following comment "We in South America dance all this dances as well but we are rough diamonds. We danced without all the style and technique that we saw tonight."

So yes not the same way they dance in Latin America but what we dance is "Muy bonito y Muy Elegante" and give me more of it.

[Josh]

Good post rjc...

Yeah, it might be good to step back for a moment and note that the majority of people, IME, do not feel this way. Most have attitudes like the one rjc mentioned, that they actually admire the obvious difficulty associated with doing something at a more technically rigorous level. Just as we admire the roots and authentic way the dance is done, they often feel the same way about ours. There are a few extremists on both sides out there, but they are far fewer than those of us who are able to have balanced views.

[rjcbear]

Thank you Josh,

Every time I step on the dance floor with DW and teacher is my goal to make that rough diamond something that people will take pleasure to look at.

So as a Latino I will try every time to make my Latin dances "Muy bonito y Muy Elegante."

[K_8ie]

Well I guess I will put my little 2 cents into this thread.

As a Latino myself I must say what we dance as socially or competitively is highly evolve but lord is very elegant and I will not change anything at all. Is it human nature to make it better?

This Summer my Mother and my Aunt were here in the States visiting from South America and they came to every social dance that DW and I went, they attended some of our lessons and we took them to Dance World summer showcase. After the showcase My Aunt's commented and said "Muy bonito y muy Elegante" translation "Very beautiful and very Elegant" and Mom added the following comment "We in South America dance all this dances as well but we are rough diamonds. We danced without all the style and technique that we saw tonight."

So yes not the same way they dance in Latin America but what we dance is "Muy bonito y Muy Elegante" and give me more of it.


First off, I love dancesport. I was raised in it, and it's what I do. However, this person's comments and the responses sound educated. Yes his/her comments are at times strong, but this is a personal issue for all of us. And if you read the responses, I'm sorry, but they are mostly off target and some are plainly ignorant (i.e. classical evolved into hip hop?!!!!).
If you take the time to study dance...really study dance, you would be outraged dancing to some of the music we dance to (he had a point the the music did not represent the dances). For example having an accent on 4 in rumba makes sense when you dance to an authentic rumba. This same accent is hard to find in a modern day song which is desguised as a rumba.

Second, the responses this person received (i.e. " C'mon its so great!!IDSF!!I love it!!")....honestly...or this "Ballroom dancing has been around for many many years and even before you are born. Just because you are ignorant enough not to know of its existence doesn't mean that this is not a dance form that is not enjoyed and learned by many talented people. It takes many years of disciplined training to achieve this standard. If you can't appreciate it, that's too bad but don't criticize something you have no knowledge about. It just shows stupidity, ignorance and intolerance and lack of culture."

Ballroom has been around (as a competitive sport) since the 20th century, it's not that old! Yes it takes discipline, I should know, but to say this person is ignorant and has lack of culture is an insult. This person obviously knows about the existence of Dancesport, but they don't agree that this is latin.

Now, the reason I quoted the post is because of what rjcbear's aunt said. Our version of latin dance evolved in Europe and North America. Therefore it had to become more adequate for snobbier people, therefore, it became classier and more elegant. The fact that it evolved differently doesn't mean we should take for what it is. I think going deeper, researching roots and going back to them sometimes (ex: Music) is wise.

I hope this makes sense.....Try not to bash too hard ;)

[FatBaldGuy60]

neither is a taco bell taco a real taco...but I love them nonetheless...shrug...people get their underwear in a knot over the strangest things

Taco Bell is evil, not because of the fact that the food is not authentic [which I could care less about] but because it tastes like [insert your own epithet here].

Homemade tacos for the win.

FBG

As to the original topic, no one wins arguments on the internet. You can usually see pretty quickly that the person you are dealing with is not open-minded. At that point, disengage.

[jennyisdancing]

Taco Bell is evil, not because of the fact that the food is not authentic [which I could care less about] but because it tastes like [insert your own epithet here].

Homemade tacos for the win.

http://ssbenjelle.invisionzone.com/style_emoticons/default/hide.gif

**small voice**
I like Taco Bell. No epithets for me. Baja Fresh is better, though.

And I don't care if Dancesport Latin is authentic, I just find it enjoyable. I also enjoy and respect the original dances it's based upon.

Being of Russian Jewish background, I don't watch the dancing in "Fiddler on the Roof" and say "hey, that's not an authentic representation of how my great-grandparents danced in Kiev!" Who cares, it's just entertainment. That's how I look at Dancesport as well.

[Peaches]

http://ssbenjelle.invisionzone.com/style_emoticons/default/hide.gif

**small voice**
I like Taco Bell. Me too. It's so horrible...it's wonderful!

Where else can you find "food" with that much salt and that many chemicals? Ooo...now I want some...

[tangotime]

If you take the time to study dance...really study dance, you would be outraged dancing to some of the music we dance to (he had a point the the music did not represent the dances).

For example having an accent on 4 in rumba makes sense when you dance to an authentic rumba. This same accent is hard to find in a modern day song which is desguised as a rumba.


I think going deeper, researching roots and going back to them sometimes (ex: Music) is wise.

;)



part 1/2 -- So true-- especially when the other music is readily available ( some of the DJs do make an effort )

part 3 --can be very revealing and rewarding

[Angel HI]

So yes not the same way they dance in Latin America but what we dance is "Muy bonito y Muy Elegante" and give me more of it.

Just as we admire the roots and authentic way the dance is done, they often feel the same way about ours. There are a few extremists on both sides out there, but they are far fewer than those of us who are able to have balanced views.

I believe these 2 posts define the bottom line, excellently.

[Angel HI]

Are there others who are confused about this post?
http://www.dance-forums.com/showpost.php?p=505529&postcount=28
Not saying it's bad...just confusing. : \

[tuftufwang]

Second, the responses this person received (i.e. " C'mon its so great!!IDSF!!I love it!!")....honestly...or this "Ballroom dancing has been around for many many years and even before you are born. Just because you are ignorant enough not to know of its existence doesn't mean that this is not a dance form that is not enjoyed and learned by many talented people. It takes many years of disciplined training to achieve this standard. If you can't appreciate it, that's too bad but don't criticize something you have no knowledge about. It just shows stupidity, ignorance and intolerance and lack of culture."



It is true that competitive ballroom dancing hasn't been around as long as some other dances such as ballet for example. Ignorance and lack of culture more likely refer to intolerance. As I've said many times, I truly appreciate the roots from which competitive Latin dancing originated and I did say that I admire a person's passion about his/her culture. That said, I did get a bit riled when I hear people saying that dancers (ballroom dancers) are fake and don't dance from the heart and are merely enticed by the glamor. I think everyone on DF knows at least one professional dancer who has worked his/her tail off to get to where they are today. The thing is I believe we need to respect the existence and evolution of new dance forms. You can choose to dislike it of course but judging the dancers as fake and likening their chosen art to a children's pageant???? Hmmmm......I don't know about it.:confused: I would like to show respect to people who are passionate about their beliefs and ask that they do the same. Although, as many wise DFers have pointed out, it may be fruitless in many cases.

Anyway, enough said. I have to agree wholeheartedly with you that the music is getting really wayward and someone needs to at least play some good old Cuban cha and Latin rumba when I compete next time I hope!!! I don't know what about "Feelings" is rumba-ish. Sigh....that would be my gripe about choice of music. "Lady Marmalade" is definitely not a "real" cha cha piece but many enjoy dancing to it socially or in exhibition. :rolleyes:

[lcdancesport]

Did anyone else think the song choices in the video were really bland??? The energy of the song didn't seem to match up to the energy of the dancers much- aside from the classic paso and jive.

There are some good points made on here though about Dancesport versus traditional social dancing someone was brought up with. Dancesport is an interpretation of such traditional dances, except with more technical details and refinement, upon which one can judge through a competition or teach more easily to a student.

[Cal]

Didn't Scott and Fran figure this all out in "Strictly Ballroom" ?

[lcdancesport]

Didn't Scott and Fran figure this all out in "Strictly Ballroom" ?

Haha those rules of dance needed to be broken by all means necessary. It was quite a hard contrast between technical versus just moving to the music.

[Angel HI]

Dancesport is an interpretation of such traditional dances, except with more technical details and refinement, upon which one can judge through a competition or teach more easily to a student.

Respectfully ICD, though that might have been the good intention, there are far less technical details and refinements in DS than its parent BR. At the origin of thinking of BR as an Olympic sport, the BR tecnique book and the ice dancig technique book were practically verbatim in their basics and basic techniques. IMO, had the powers that be stuck to that approach, BR might be further along in the O. quest.

DS did much for opening BR to a new group of dancers whom, otherwise, would not have been able to do it as easily. Yet, in doing so, much technical detail and refinement of BR not known by other genres was overlooked. I empathize with the dilemma of how to open BR to nontrained BR dancers and maintain the original degree of technical expertise, and I accept that all things cange in time.

I must go on record, before I am dejected from Angel Heaven, to say that I am not disdainful of, or do not respect, DS dancers. I respect their abilities, and like lots of it. I do some of it, as well. Yet, I am partial to the traditional elegance and technical refinement of BR. :)

[Angel HI]

Didn't Scott and Fran figure this all out in "Strictly Ballroom" ?

There are some of us who remember that "SB" is a political parody poking fun at U.S. ballroom at the time. We all...well, many, or some, of us...laughed at being able to cite the incidences in the film with the time that they happened in real life, and the persons whom the characters were representing. Fun stuff. :p

[K_8ie]

TufTuf, I agree

[lcdancesport]

Not to stray from the topic at hand, but Angel are you talking about American versus International curriculum? If so, I definitely agree International is more proficient technically, in fact I really enjoy it because it has helped me with my American in both general dance and in teaching because it is broken down so much more.

[Peaches]

Someone, please, correct me if I am wrong, but it was my understanding that American v. International curriculum is based on the same underlying technique. What happens after that is anybody's guess, but I'd be hesitant to say that International is more proficient technically. But...like I said...if I'm wrong, then somebody please correct me.

[Peaches]

Respectfully ICD, though that might have been the good intention, there are far less technical details and refinements in DS than its parent BR. At the origin of thinking of BR as an Olympic sport, the BR tecnique book and the ice dancig technique book were practically verbatim in their basics and basic techniques. IMO, had the powers that be stuck to that approach, BR might be further along in the O. quest.

DS did much for opening BR to a new group of dancers whom, otherwise, would not have been able to do it as easily. Yet, in doing so, much technical detail and refinement of BR not known by other genres was overlooked. I empathize with the dilemma of how to open BR to nontrained BR dancers and maintain the original degree of technical expertise, and I accept that all things cange in time.

I must go on record, before I am dejected from Angel Heaven, to say that I am not disdainful of, or do not respect, DS dancers. I respect their abilities, and like lots of it. I do some of it, as well. Yet, I am partial to the traditional elegance and technical refinement of BR. :)I'm unclear about your disctinction between BR and DS. Could you, please, explain?

[Cal]

There are some of us who remember that "SB" is a political parody poking fun at U.S. ballroom at the time. We all...well, many, or some, of us...laughed at being able to cite the incidences in the film with the time that they happened in real life, and the persons whom the characters were representing. Fun stuff. :p

Sure, but that isn't really what I was driving at. I was thinking of the sub-story: Scott, as we all know, wanted to dance his own steps. But, when he first showed his PD to Fran's family, they laughed. They then taught him to put some authenticity -and heart- into his dance. So, when the finale came along, he and Fran combined BOTH "new" steps and "heart" into their dance. And so, the cycle of life: what's "old and authentic" becomes "new" again.
(And the crowd went wild!)

[lcdancesport]

I'm confused too Peaches :confused:

[Angel HI]

...but Angel are you talking about American versus International curriculum?

ICD, not really. I am referring to BR as a whole. DS, for good or not, has interjected many elements which were unknown to the genre. While doing so, many technical exceptions were made/allowed simply because the additions didn't conform/agree with traditional BR.

...it was my understanding that American v. International curriculum is based on the same underlying technique.

It is also my understanding that intern. and amer. share the same technical requirements. Variations might occur due to style differences, but good dancing is good dancing, and thus requires good technique...regardless of continent.

[dance234]

It's funny. My experience with Latin people and ballroom is that they are *far* more likely to make approving statements about it than non-Latin people. There is a familiarity with dancing and partner dancing in particular which make it less weird/exotic/unfamiliar/un-knowable to them. The small subset of people freaking out about authenticity seems to me to be a vocal but small minority.

[Angel HI]

Sure, but that isn't really what I was driving at. I was thinking of the sub-story: Scott, as we all know, wanted to dance his own steps. But, when he first showed his PD to Fran's family, they laughed. They then taught him to put some authenticity -and heart- into his dance.

Agreed. I believe that this was/is the absolute best part of the film. My other post should have been prefaced with an apology for being off-topic...just sharing a sidebar of no real importance.

[lcdancesport]

ICD, not really. I am referring to BR as a whole. DS, for good or not, has interjected many elements which were unknown to the genre. While doing so, many technical exceptions were made/allowed simply because the additions didn't conform/agree with traditional BR.

What kind of standards did/does tradition BR go by then curriculum wise? I thought DS was pretty much the standard today for competition and for teaching.

[tangotime]

It's funny. My experience with Latin people and ballroom is that they are *far* more likely to make approving statements about it than non-Latin people.




Well in my considerable experience , I have found that to be totally the opposite, particularly in the many " latino" clubs I frequented for many a yr. in several large metro areas ( states side ) that is possibly because I got accepted in the community by trying to learn the language and conforming to street type dance , and in so doing, they were very open to me about their feelings on this very subject.
Knowing them as I do-- they would never show disrespect to someone not within that enclave

[Angel HI]

I'm unclear about your disctinction between BR and DS. Could you, please, explain?
Many of us are dinosaurs in this business, if not worse...if there is something prior. BR was a completely different genre before the integration of other genres (jazz, tap, hip hop, flamenco, etc). Perhaps, it was coincidence that these other genres were allowed into BR at the same time as BR was trying to be redefined as a sport. In either case, the two are related.

As, or when, these other forms were added to BR, of course they brought their individual forms and techniques to the genre. Rather than adapting new movements to BR techniques, what was considered good/proper BR technique was sometimes overlooked, or completely altered to accommodate the new style/s. Again, whether directly from a specific incidence, time, or ruling, DS was born...a new, more vibrant, mroe exciting (in some ways), more physically demanding art form.

Of course, BR and DS share much...is it an amoeba that seperates itself to become two of the same thing, yet different? Though they are the same, they are, indeed, very different. We dinosaurs remember when there was a very distinct and clear difference between intern. and amer. latin. Moreso, we remember when what is now called Cabaret was once called Theatre Arts, and vis-a-vis...more or less.
:)

[Angel HI]

TT has more experience in this than I. Perhaps, he can fill in some other gaps for you, or help explain some things better...if necessary.

[Angel HI]

What kind of standards did/does tradition BR go by then curriculum wise? I thought DS was pretty much the standard today for competition and for teaching.

Good question. I know that all of this has not made our job as adjudicators easier. I wouldn't say that DS is the standard for 'all' comps. For one thing, most ams over a certain age simply can't physically do it, nor do they wish to. IMO, DS is for competitors and pros; BR is for the general public who just wants to learn to dance and look great on a dance floor.

[chica latina]

I am from a latin background and even though I love to watch and dance "latin ballroom", I need to say I understand where the others are coming from..

When I went back home and they saw me dance they thought I was getting worse and they could not appreciate it. In latin clubs, if you do ballroom style... similar situation is expected-- but normally they are very nice about it "looks more proper and elegant, etc..."... while others latin and non-latin dancers commented "too rigid, not enough flavor, not real, etc...".

I just don't think they should attack anyone in particular and if they were less critical they could get their point across better. Just understand that ballroom could be seen as very extreme to someone that know the dances from its origins.

[Purr]

Let me leave you with this thought-- came a time when " Tea for 2 " was considered the best Cha music available . :doh:

I have two versions of Tea for Two, from the Latin Music 8 and Mambo Kings soundtrack. I'm not fond of either. Give me Besame or Muevelo any day.

[lcdancesport]

Good question. I know that all of this has not made our job as adjudicators easier. I wouldn't say that DS is the standard for 'all' comps. For one thing, most ams over a certain age simply can't physically do it, nor do they wish to. IMO, DS is for competitors and pros; BR is for the general public who just wants to learn to dance and look great on a dance floor.

Thanks Angel, that makes more sense now. When it comes to group classes at my studio I can tell some people want the nitty gritty of it all while others just want to know how to get through something and adapt to it the best they can just so they can get out there and have fun.

[lcdancesport]

Many of us are dinosaurs in this business, if not worse...if there is something prior. BR was a completely different genre before the integration of other genres (jazz, tap, hip hop, flamenco, etc). Perhaps, it was coincidence that these other genres were allowed into BR at the same time as BR was trying to be redefined as a sport. In either case, the two are related.

As, or when, these other forms were added to BR, of course they brought their individual forms and techniques to the genre. Rather than adapting new movements to BR techniques, what was considered good/proper BR technique was sometimes overlooked, or completely altered to accommodate the new style/s. Again, whether directly from a specific incidence, time, or ruling, DS was born...a new, more vibrant, mroe exciting (in some ways), more physically demanding art form.

Of course, BR and DS share much...is it an amoeba that seperates itself to become two of the same thing, yet different? Though they are the same, they are, indeed, very different. We dinosaurs remember when there was a very distinct and clear difference between intern. and amer. latin. Moreso, we remember when what is now called Cabaret was once called Theatre Arts, and vis-a-vis...more or less.
:)

Ah, learn something new everyday. I guess I wasn't sure how ballroom dance really originated. Thanks for the insight :)

[Me]

Hey DFers, I recently got into an online argument with someone who is very adamant that dancesport (Latin in particular) is a false and wrong (I think he feels it's a crime) interpretation of Latin American dances. He/she went as far as to say that dancesport is a "bastardization" of Latin American dances... My argument then is that dancesport competitors/dancers are not deluded into thinking that the samba we are trained in is in any shape or form a classical interpretation of a Brazilian samba danced at the Brazilian street carnivals. At least I don't. I think we have "borrowed" elements of dances from Cuban and Brazilian roots and created a different dance form that has evolved over the years... What I don't understand is why these people HATE ballroom dancing so much to the extent of getting really offended by the very existence of dancesport... Anyway, I was wondering if people ever had encounters with other dancers who really hate Latin dancing and what do you say in response. Or perhaps the smarter way is to let it go since you can't overcome extreme stubbornness and ignorance anyway?














I can easily understand why some Latin people would take offense to examples of 'bad' dance sport. We've all seen it - Dancers painted deep brown with slicked back hair, snarling at one another, stomping on the floor, striking 'sexy' poses and pretentiously rubbing their hair. The movement quality is completely removed from the original Latin dances, as is the costuming, intent of the dance, and other things. Regardless of the distinction of the name "Dance Sport" the dances are still billed as "Samba" and "Rumba." It can be argued that the dancers are educated and know what they are dancing is not an accurate representation, but as more DS is brought to television, that wall is removed and the average viewer will not understand the difference.

I believe that though many of us love dance it still falls in the 'hobby' category and less in the 'identity' category. I do not understand this completely (I am American) but dance is part of the Latin identity to many, and some will view DS as a gross misrepresentation with no regard or respect for the source and will take it as a personal insult.

[latingal]

TufTuf, on another side of your original post...it's not fun to be "flamed" in a forum where others may not respect or listen to your opinion. Other boards can get quite nasty and I am sorry to hear the inference to such in your op.

I'm happy that the discussion here has remained respectful to all and has been much more informative and productive to our members (thank you to all you DF'ers).

[tuftufwang]

TufTuf, on another side of your original post...it's not fun to be "flamed" in a forum where others may not respect or listen to your opinion. Other boards can get quite nasty and I am sorry to hear the inference to such in your op.

I'm happy that the discussion here has remained respectful to all and has been much more informative and productive to our members (thank you to all you DF'ers).

I am guilty of letting anger get the better of me although I did try my hardest to restrain from being offensive and maintain a respectful attitude.

Let me just say that I truly appreciate the opinions of those coming from a Latin American heritage. Thanks very much for letting us enjoy part of your culture and not stoning us when we dance to "Sex Bomb" for a cha cha!!!

[rjcbear]

Let me just say that I truly appreciate the opinions of those coming from a Latin American heritage. Thanks very much for letting us enjoy part of your culture and not stoning us when we dance to "Sex Bomb" for a cha cha!!!

Hey TufTuf,

Just make sure you do your best to make that "Sex Bomb" Muy bonito y Muy Elegante. :banana:

[Josh]

Are there others who are confused about this post?
http://www.dance-forums.com/showpost.php?p=505529&postcount=28
Not saying it's bad...just confusing. : \

Yes, I found myself repeatedly trying to figure out which "side" he/she was on... sounds like MPD to me.. :-) (j/k)

[Josh]

Someone, please, correct me if I am wrong, but it was my understanding that American v. International curriculum is based on the same underlying technique. What happens after that is anybody's guess, but I'd be hesitant to say that International is more proficient technically. But...like I said...if I'm wrong, then somebody please correct me.

(it's been discussed numerous times in various threads, but just to address it here...)

The technique of 98% of top Rhythm dancers is identical to that of Latin ones. There are only a handful, literally only a few, true rhythm dancers and coaches still active today.

Personally, I like the feeling of "getting with the times." Sure, there's something to be said about heritage and where we came from, but why linger there forever? That's my take on it, and I know that will disagree with many. I mean, what if people in the Modern Ballroom world insisted on dancing ballroom the way it was danced 40 years ago? Today it's wider, bigger, more powerful, and overall, IMO, "upgraded." Progress is good, people! :-)

[Peaches]

(it's been discussed numerous times in various threads, but just to address it here...)

The technique of 98% of top Rhythm dancers is identical to that of Latin ones. There are only a handful, literally only a few, true rhythm dancers and coaches still active today.

Personally, I like the feeling of "getting with the times." Sure, there's something to be said about heritage and where we came from, but why linger there forever? That's my take on it, and I know that will disagree with many. I mean, what if people in the Modern Ballroom world insisted on dancing ballroom the way it was danced 40 years ago? Today it's wider, bigger, more powerful, and overall, IMO, "upgraded." Progress is good, people! :-)Riiiiight... Had forgotten that things were discussing latin dances. D'oh. Latin...rhythm...NOT standard...smooth. My bad. My comment regarding technique was thinking about standard technique being the same as the fundamental smooth technique. Sorry 'bout that, guys. /*un-hijack*/

[tangotime]

Ah, learn something new everyday. I guess I wasn't sure how ballroom dance really originated. Thanks for the insight :)


It would take a week to go thru the evolution of " B.R. " as you currently observe it .

2 sides to the story-- the American and the English.

It think it would be fair comment to say that the Amer. were lite yrs ahead of the British in the development of a sound, mixed, social dance syllabus ( much thanks to the A/M studios )

They developed a system that gave quick and easy learning dance programs, that would get people onto the "floor " within a very limited time period.
I can remember when I first started coaching in the states, many schools would not have the " english style " as it was then named, taught . the reasons were varied, primarily, many did not have staff who were capable ( not their fault ! )
Much , of their Comp. experience was done on an in house basis, for fun-- no losers .

The English on the other hand, were still maintaining a strong medal test system ( with huge kids classes in most cities ). this is where the Hiltons, and Hurleys and many others, came from . It provided a strong core for future amat. etc.

The social we had at that time, was pretty much the same as today-- it was restricted to a few basic fig. in W and QS-- the F/T looked very much like the Amer Br. ( still does ) Rumba was still Sq , again like the states, and jive was restricted to basics as was samba ( cha was not invented at this time ).

I believe that the Amers. forged the way for the changes that became what we see today. They expanded the competetive arena by adding Pro/Am ( that is going to happen here in the near future ) In so doing, it brought dance to many countries that did not have a strong " social " structure.

Once the publics eyes were opened to the possibilities avaliable, it then became possible for them to engage in the world of comp ( pro/am ).

The theatrical side of dance ( Th. Arts ) was highly developed by the Amer. teams, and at one point were unbeatable.
I strongly believe, that this type of performance led to the development of D.S.(by the way, there were, and still are , many who oppose it )

Hope that gives you a little more insight .

[Joe]

There are some of us who remember that "SB" is a political parody poking fun at U.S. ballroom at the time.
:?:

[White Chacha]

...Hope that gives you a little more insight .

That was a great, concise picture. Thank you!

[Some Day]

Regardless of the distinction of the name "Dance Sport" the dances are still billed as "Samba" and "Rumba." It can be argued that the dancers are educated and know what they are dancing is not an accurate representation, but as more DS is brought to television, that wall is removed and the average viewer will not understand the difference.

I believe that though many of us love dance it still falls in the 'hobby' category and less in the 'identity' category. I do not understand this completely (I am American) but dance is part of the Latin identity to many, and some will view DS as a gross misrepresentation with no regard or respect for the source and will take it as a personal insult.

I agree, ME. I think we saw this with DWTS and Helio. As we all know, Helio is from Brazil, where Samba is considered the 'national dance.' It is closely tied to their identity. It was interesting to see Helio's reaction when Julianne was teaching him 'Samba'....totally different from what he knew as Samba. I'm sure Brazilians watching the show (not familiar with ballroom) were shocked to see what we (ballroom) call samba.

I am latina myself and see both aspects. I love ballroom/latin dancing, but I know that it is not the authentic form. I'm ok with this, because I can separate the two. However, some people who are not familiar with the various dance forms will be confused, at best, when the same names are used to represent very different styles of dancing. Two recent anecdotes:

My husband and I are practicing our samba. My brazilian neighbor says "What are you dancing?" We tell him. He laughs hysterically. "That's not samba!", he says. "No one in Brazil dances like that!"

I'm watching ballroom video clips on You Tube. My mom looks over my shoulder and asks me what I'm looking at. "Tango", I explain. "Tango?" she says, incredulous. "That's not Tango!"

Pretty amusing, I think :D

[etp777]

Tangotime, haven't the brits disowned you already for daring to say anything nice about American ballroom? ;) Do love hearing the history that lead to what we have today though.

[tangotime]

Tangotime, haven't the brits disowned you already for daring to say anything nice about American ballroom? ;) Do love hearing the history that lead to what we have today though.

Do you know whats really strange ?-- everytime I show figures from the different social dances ( even in Br ) they LUV them .

I believe the majority are surprised at the practicality of what is taught .

( I have colleagues close to me, that are now teaching some of the Samba basics !! )

When they asked me to do a lecture at the congress last yr, I pled my case for Amer. rhythm, but they opted for W-- FT ( wish it had been T ) .

[Nik]

Tell them to watch the World Superstar Shows that Michael Wentik and Beata did back in the day. I think their Samba was as authentic as you could get and then ask him to show you some "real" latin dancers who can do that with such speed and technique as they did.

Take Max and Yulias samba showdance number, same authentic taste to it, and again I doubt those "real latin dancers" he speaks of can do something like that.

While there is a point to his argument since dancesport is a competitive style and requires technique and certain things to get the marks, it has not gone that far off for someone to hate it. He's an idiot for not respecting the body control and the skills that Ballroom Dancers have incorporated into these dances.

[Josh]

He's an idiot for not respecting the body control and the skills that Ballroom Dancers have incorporated into these dances.

Well said Nik.

People always have such an easy time bashing something they've never tried before. Like people who watch football or baseball or other sports and complain "they get paid a million dollars for doing THAT?" ... the implication being, of course, that it's easy or not worth that amount of money. If it's so easy, then they should try it... same with these people who bash ballroom dancers. The skill and sweat required to be truly great is so enormous that it's not even comprehensible by these people who have never tried it. It's like trying to truly grasp the largeness of a number like 1,000,000,000. Sure, we say "a billion" all the time, but we can't truly grasp how big that is, because our minds can't deal with things that way. People who speak so lightly of the skills required in ballroom dancing would not speak that way if they really understood even a small amount of what they themselves can NOT do.

[etp777]

Heh, had a guy here at work tell me that ballroom dances were easy, that latin dances were what was really hard. Course, he's talking about what he's learned at clubs and basic ballroom for some general events that might ahve a bit of dancing. Would love to see him sit through coaching with a blackpool or american rhythm champ and then tell me it was easy. Friend though, so just gently corrected his misconception rather than mocking the ignorance. :)

[Josh]

lol... yeah anybody who says "that's easy" about something done at a high level, whether that be ballroom dancing or basket weaving, I can only draw the conclusion that their knowledge of the subject is shallow at best. Even very obscure competitive things (like left-handed arm wrestling) attract enough people to be highly competitive.

[etp777]

Indeed. And i hate how often I get that thrown in my face with a new interest. Even when I think I'm being open minded and cognizant of how much effort and skill go into something, I quickly learn that I had no idea.

I would have gone to effort to find him video of even just bronze syllabus stuff, but he got distracted by pictures of some of dancers I know and the argument as to which style was harder petered out. :)

[noobster]

People always have such an easy time bashing something they've never tried before. Like people who watch football or baseball or other sports and complain "they get paid a million dollars for doing THAT?" ... the implication being, of course, that it's easy or not worth that amount of money. If it's so easy, then they should try it... same with these people who bash ballroom dancers.

I didn't see anywhere where the poster discussed said Latin Ballroom was 'easy.' S/he said it was unaesthetic and inauthentic (or rather, "false," "disturbing," "bastardized," "soulless," "materialistic," "exaggerated," "cold," and "fake").

Here's a direct quote from the poster who sparked the discussion:
"There is no art or heart in it; its cold and fake looking and although it takes incredible technique and practice like any other aesthetic sport it really is no longer dance. It's sad that this form has become so popular because people are really missing out on the essence of this dance art and are being miseducated on what these dances are all about."

Just because something is hard to do doesn't mean everyone is going to appreciate the result.

[Angel HI]

I'm sure Brazilians watching the show (not familiar with ballroom) were shocked to see what we (ballroom) call samba. My brazilian neighbor says "What are you dancing?" We tell him. He laughs hysterically. "That's not samba!", he says. "No one in Brazil dances like that!"


It is interesting that often people forget how universal things can/have become. Many Brazilians do not know or understand that BR does not even pretend to dance Brailian Samba, but rather Caribbean Samba. Like your analogy of tango...of course, we know 3 different types.

A good analogy is that dance is like language. English is spoken all over the world. Though, the same, it is slightly different in each place.

[Josh]

I didn't see anywhere where the poster discussed said Latin Ballroom was 'easy.'

I wasn't really responding to the OP, I have no idea even who it was... I'm just referring to those who imply that it's easy (like a lindy swing dancer who told a student of mine in reference to a beginners waltz class, "yeah, so 30 minutes is plenty of time to learn waltz right?"). Whether it's meant to be disrespectful or it's just outright cluelessness, it's amusing in either case.

It takes 12 years of schooling to become an MD, at least 8 or 10 to become a lawyer, previous experience of at least several years to become a pro sports player, years of training and practice to be a good musician, at least 5 years of schooling and lots of post-graduate experience to become a professional at pretty much anything--yet, people think they can be "good" ballroom dancers in a month. I mean, it's kind of funny, isn't it?

[Peaches]

Definitely not easy. Would never, ever, ever say something like that.

But I can see where some people are coming from (not the vehemence or the hatred, but the sentiment behind it) in looking at the "ballroom-ized" or "dancesport-ized" versions of our beloved dances and wondering, "What in blazes did they do to it?!?!"

[noobster]

Definitely not easy. Would never, ever, ever say something like that.

But I can see where some people are coming from (not the vehemence or the hatred, but the sentiment behind it) in looking at the "ballroom-ized" or "dancesport-ized" versions of our beloved dances and wondering, "What in blazes did they do to it?!?!"

Exactly.
And the vehemence - well, I don't feel it myself; but like I said on page 1, if that were my culture being "bastardized," yeah, I might feel kind of vehement about it.

Tell them to watch the World Superstar Shows that Michael Wentik and Beata did back in the day. I think their Samba was as authentic as you could get and then ask him to show you some "real" latin dancers who can do that with such speed and technique as they did.

Take Max and Yulias samba showdance number, same authentic taste to it, and again I doubt those "real latin dancers" he speaks of can do something like that.

Of course they can't. But they don't *want* to, either.

Re authenticity, well, I guess it's authentic Latin Ballroom if it comes to that. I did watch some of the Wentink/Beata clips and appreciated them. They were miles better than most of the fake snarly Latin I've seen; and since they were performances rather than comp routines, they were able to tailor their movements to the music somewhat.

But they're still dancing to mass-market pop music with no emotional depth, and they're still emoting rather than expressing emotion, if that makes sense.

Of course this is all a matter of personal opinion and people have a right to whatever kind of dancing they enjoy. But they might ruffle fewer feathers if they decided to call it something else, rather than use the names of dances where the music and the emotional response to it are central.

[Josh]

But they're still dancing to mass-market pop music with no emotional depth, and they're still emoting rather than expressing emotion, if that makes sense.

noobster, are you making the assumption that you know the depth of the emotion of the dancers? How do you know they're not moved by "non-authentic" music? What you're seeing is perhaps not what YOU perceive as "feeling the music," but perhaps they really are, and it just looks different to you... Granted, some no doubt fake it, but do you think they all do? On that note, I've seen plenty of dancers dancing their native dances to their native music and failed to see the raw emotion and depth that is apparently expected of all others.

Additionally, I have personally witnessed many occasions where native dancers turn up their noses and laugh when non-natives attempt to dance the dances in the native way. So, it seems that in many cases, if you're not born into the culture, you just can't do it "right." I know I'm generalizing, but I've seen it happen often, and I'm willing to bet that most of us have, and it's a trait of all people to behave this way unfortunately.

All I'm trying to do is give a different perspective, and I realize you have your opinion and I have mine, and I'm not trying to change yours. I think that mutual respect is the best answer in most all cases.

[Angel HI]

noobster, are you making the assumption that you know the depth of the emotion of the dancers? How do you know they're not moved by "non-authentic" music?

Josh, I believe you answered your question. It seems fairly evident that Noob was referring to his feeling for the music...not the dance.

[White Chacha]

...It takes 12 years of schooling to become an MD, at least 8 or 10 to become a lawyer, previous experience of at least several years to become a pro sports player, years of training and practice to be a good musician, at least 5 years of schooling and lots of post-graduate experience to become a professional at pretty much anything--yet, people think they can be "good" ballroom dancers in a month. I mean, it's kind of funny, isn't it?

This is exacerbated of late by DwtS. I was talking with a newer dancer just Friday night. She thought it amazing what those stars can do on show with seemingly less training than she had this past semester.

I reminded her that the "stars" were getting tens of hours per week in PRIVATE lessons. I pointed out that for the most part the leader stars weren't actually leading, and the follower stars were mostly being held up and thrown around by their pro leaders.

Sorry, somewhat off topic I know, but this particular perception seems prevalent. Even in our language. Phrases like "Do you think you can just waltz in here and ..." implying that waltzing is particularly easy.

[etp777]

This is exacerbated of late by DwtS. I was talking with a newer dancer just Friday night. She thought it amazing what those stars can do on show with seemingly less training than she had this past semester.

I reminded her that the "stars" were getting tens of hours per week in PRIVATE lessons. I pointed out that for the most part the leader stars weren't actually leading, and the follower stars were mostly being held up and thrown around by their pro leaders.

Sorry, somewhat off topic I know, but this particular perception seems prevalent. Even in our language. Phrases like "Do you think you can just waltz in here and ..." implying that waltzing is particularly easy.

Not to mention that last season, even in the finale, where their skills should supposedly be good, and they were even pickign what was their "best" dance, could watch a tango with no heel leads by the star through the whole thing. Entries pro has me put together for comps may not look as flashy as some of stuff on DWTS, but I sure as hell lead the steps and have better technique than most of them. :)

[Joe]

Phrases like "Do you think you can just waltz in here and ..." implying that waltzing is particularly easy.
But isn't the objective to make it look easy?

[Peaches]

But isn't the objective to make it look easy?If it's anything like music, then yeah...

[tangotime]

Perspective-- the majority on these types of sites, bring a more critical " eye " to the debate than the average t.v. watcher .

I,m not defending the questionable music, and or some of the performances, when it comes to the " Latin " category.

As previously stated-- it would be more acceptable if "they" ,were to clarify the performance as to its truer nature -- i.e.-- Cabaret style for e.g.

Also, think we got a little off topic .

[noobster]

noobster, are you making the assumption that you know the depth of the emotion of the dancers? How do you know they're not moved by "non-authentic" music? What you're seeing is perhaps not what YOU perceive as "feeling the music," but perhaps they really are, and it just looks different to you... Granted, some no doubt fake it, but do you think they all do?
It's of course entirely possible that I am unable to see the emotional involvement of the dancers because I have no emotional response to the music myself in the first place.

But if you are going to argue that this music actually does evoke deep emotional responses in these dancers, there are a lot of other things to explain, such as:
- the fact that their movements almost never match the music (usually because they are a choreographed routine that hasn't much to do with the music they get at the comp) - the OP's clip is a great example of this, and yet it is supposed to be an example of really good-quality dancing, not comparable to your example of a native dancer doing a poor job
- the fact that the arm/leg styling and movements are all of the same sharp, elucidated character, regardless of the song that's playing
- the fact that there is almost no discussion of music at all in the ballroom forum, except when trying to find a piece that would fit a particular routine, timing, or costume (!!) rather than the other way around. Et cetera.

I think one would have an easier time arguing that dancesport is just not about the music, it's about the movement (like aesthetic gymnastics with a background track) and it shouldn't be held to a musical standard. And like I said, that's fine as well, but the reason for the feather-ruffling is probably just the insistence on keeping the names of art forms that at this point are pretty much unrelated to it.

On that note, I've seen plenty of dancers dancing their native dances to their native music and failed to see the raw emotion and depth that is apparently expected of all others.
Well sure. You can have a 'native dancer' who dances a 'native dance' badly; just like you have a spectrum of ability in ballroom. There's a range for everything.

Additionally, I have personally witnessed many occasions where native dancers turn up their noses and laugh when non-natives attempt to dance the dances in the native way. So, it seems that in many cases, if you're not born into the culture, you just can't do it "right."
I think you *can* do it 'right' if not born into it, but it takes a lot of experience and training. (After all, the only difference between 'native' and 'non-native' is their cumulative amount of exposure to the music and dance in question.)

I know plenty of non-Latino salseros who've been complimented on their dancing by 'natives,' but those people have all been working on their salsa for years. I also know an African-American woman who is married to a Greek friend of mine. She is an amazing dancer with a lot of talent for understanding the feel of a dance, and she inevitably gets applause from Greeks for the absolute understanding with which she's picked up the motions (which, although not necessarily physically demanding, are usually almost impossible to replicate for non-natives). But she's been working on it for years. Nobody gets up there and does it right the first time.

Anyway, this is kind of a fun diversion but I'm not sure how it's relevant to the OP. I'm cool to keep talking about it though, as long as we don't get called out for hijacking the thread (which was originally billed as an attempt to understand the linked YouTube conversation).


All I'm trying to do is give a different perspective, and I realize you have your opinion and I have mine, and I'm not trying to change yours. I think that mutual respect is the best answer in most all cases.

Well sure. I'm going to continue to reiterate that people have a right to whatever music and dance they like. But because most of the people in this thread are ballroom people (and mostly of the same opinion) I'm trying to offer the other view, as originally requested by the OP.

[wooh]

neither is a taco bell taco a real taco...but I love them nonetheless...shrug...people get their underwear in a knot over the strangest things

I wouldn't say latin is a taco and dancesport is taco bell. Maybe more along the lines of latin is authentic Mexican food and dancesport is Tex-Mex. I prefer Tex-Mex, but can see where a Mexican person would prefer authentic Mexican food.

[wooh]

Me too. It's so horrible...it's wonderful!

Where else can you find "food" with that much salt and that many chemicals? Ooo...now I want some...

Eating some right now.:cool:

[mamboqueen]

your disclaimer is hysterical, noobster!

[fascination]

I wouldn't say latin is a taco and dancesport is taco bell. Maybe more along the lines of latin is authentic Mexican food and dancesport is Tex-Mex. I prefer Tex-Mex, but can see where a Mexican person would prefer authentic Mexican food.no I wouldn't say that either...and I didn't...I said that not everything that is a derivative of something else purports to be authentic...nor is it neccessarily bad....

[Josh]

- the fact that their movements almost never match the music (usually because they are a choreographed routine that hasn't much to do with the music they get at the comp)

In a sport all competitors compete on the same "field" with the same "umpires" and the same music, in this case... Maybe you've never watched showdances and performances where dancers choose their own music. But even in this clip, despite the limitations of not knowing the music ahead of time, they all look like they're having a good time to me. If you want to say they should all just do lead and follow and interpret the music dynamically, then that's fine, but they all have routines, what do you expect?

- the fact that the arm/leg styling and movements are all of the same sharp, elucidated character, regardless of the song that's playing

If you are trying to say that a rumba should have no sharp movements because it's a slow song, then I just don't get it. But watch the rumba, and you'll see plenty of contrast between sharp and soft movements both in the arm and in the body, for example.

- the fact that there is almost no discussion of music at all in the ballroom forum, except when trying to find a piece that would fit a particular routine, timing, or costume (!!) rather than the other way around. Et cetera.

I could do with some more musical discussion, no problem with that. I'd love for you to start something going, seriously, it might be helpful! (my evil plan to get you into the ballroom forum muahaha ;-) )


I think one would have an easier time arguing that dancesport is just not about the music, it's about the movement (like aesthetic gymnastics with a background track) and it shouldn't be held to a musical standard.

As I mentioned earlier, the nature of the dance routine itself being separated from a particular song does necessitate a musical disconnect. But the movements and character of the dance should remain true to the general genre of music, and if it's something you don't like, then it's just a difference in opinion I suppose. But I would agree that the musical connection is not stressed as much.

I must ask one thing noobster--you dance NY on2 salsa (or you used to at least, I think you still do)... does it bother you when people tell you that your style is not authentic (because it's not, of course--most of LA and NY salsa is shared with ballroom, hustle, WCS, etc.), that you're disrespecting roots, and that you're basically a fraud? Whether it does or doesn't, you still like it, and you still dance it.

(one more small note: if you watch many ballroom competitions, you'll find that most of them do use actual latin music for the latin dances, which I highly prefer to dance to)

[noobster]

In a sport all competitors compete on the same "field" with the same "umpires" and the same music, in this case... Maybe you've never watched showdances and performances where dancers choose their own music. But even in this clip, despite the limitations of not knowing the music ahead of time, they all look like they're having a good time to me. If you want to say they should all just do lead and follow and interpret the music dynamically, then that's fine, but they all have routines, what do you expect?

Right; I know the reason for the disconnect is that they're using a pre-choreographed routine with unchosen music. And I don't want to say that Latin dancers *should* do anything - they should do whatever they like, of course. I'm simply noting that this disconnection from the music is something that distinguishes Latin ballroom from their social Latin progenitors in a big way, and I speculate that it could be part of the reason why it doesn't go over well with people who are familiar with those progenitors. As I said, it might have less of a PR problem if they just called it something else.

If you are trying to say that a rumba should have no sharp movements because it's a slow song, then I just don't get it. But watch the rumba, and you'll see plenty of contrast between sharp and soft movements both in the arm and in the body, for example.
Yes, but every movement is still heavily accented and overdramatized. It's all just got that Bob-Fosse-meets-Hugh-Hefner kind of character to it.

I could do with some more musical discussion, no problem with that. I'd love for you to start something going, seriously, it might be helpful! (my evil plan to get you into the ballroom forum muahaha ;-) )
Nah, you don't want me over here Grinching up the place. ;)
I'm gonna gather up my flame-retardant suit and slime back over to the Salsa forum where I belong when I'm done with this thread. :)

I must ask one thing noobster--you dance NY on2 salsa (or you used to at least, I think you still do)... does it bother you when people tell you that your style is not authentic (because it's not, of course--most of LA and NY salsa is shared with ballroom, hustle, WCS, etc.), that you're disrespecting roots, and that you're basically a fraud? Whether it does or doesn't, you still like it, and you still dance it.

Well, to start with nobody has told me that. I have met a number of 'home-schooled' Latino salseros who for one reason or another found their way into one of 'our' socials, and they were usually some combo of interested/surprised/impressed, but nobody ever said it was disrespecting the roots of the genre. Of course they might have simply been too polite to say something like that. If they *did* think it was inauthentic, I would of course consider them entitled to their opinion. I have seen people on the boards complain about salser@s who aren't dancing to the music, and I agree wholeheartedly that those dancers don't look very nice.

However, I do agree with you that NYon2 (and all salsa outside Cuba, PR, and maybe Colombia) is pretty much its own thing, a continuing development and amalgamation of older styles. I think that - when done well - it still retains an essential connection to the music and to the social aspect of dancing, which may be why it doesn't ruffle feathers the way Latin ballroom does. Just a guess.

(one more small note: if you watch many ballroom competitions, you'll find that most of them do use actual latin music for the latin dances, which I highly prefer to dance to)
At the risk of touching a nerve, I have to say that I do lurk around on the ballroom forum quite a bit and I have watched a number of videos from Latin competitions. They do often use Latin music, but most of the time it is still mass-market pop music, not too different from the other stuff except that the lyrics happen to be in Spanish. The difference between Britney Spears and Paulina Rubio is not a large one.

your disclaimer is hysterical, noobster!
You like? Thanks! I wrote it in response to a thread a long time ago and then never got rid of it. It seems to apply pretty broadly though. :)

[tangotime]

.

They do often use Latin music, but most of the time it is still mass-market pop music, not too different from the other stuff except that the lyrics happen to be in Spanish. The difference between Britney Spears and Paulina Rubio is not a large one.


Thats one of the first changes that needs to be addressed . Although-- dont know how majority would handle a Guajira or " Cuban Son " rhythm .

[Angel HI]

Right; I know the reason for the disconnect is that they're using a pre-choreographed routine with unchosen music.

I must agree with you. One of my pet hates is when I can; turn the music off, watch the dancers dance, and every dance fits the whatever music I play to it. When I am judging, it burns my @ss, yet I seem to be in the minority most of the time.

I'm simply noting that this disconnection from the music is something that distinguishes Latin ballroom from their social Latin progenitors in a big way, ...

However, I do agree with you that NYon2 (and all salsa outside Cuba, PR, and maybe Colombia) is pretty much its own thing, a continuing development and amalgamation of older styles. I think that - when done well - it still retains an essential connection to the music and to the social aspect of dancing,[/

Agree again. Social dancers can dance properly accentuating the music when they have not prechosen what is playing. So-called pros should be able to adapt prechoreographed routines to unchosen music if they are dancing the dance properly characterized.

Yes, but every movement is still heavily accented and overdramatized. It's all just got that Bob-Fosse-meets-Hugh-Hefner kind of character to it.

I have said the same thing in another thread. Too often - Too much icng...not enough cake.

[White Chacha]

...Agree again. Social dancers can dance properly accentuating the music when they have not prechosen what is playing. So-called pros should be able to adapt prechoreographed routines to unchosen music if they are dancing the dance properly characterized.
...


I suppose that's much easier if the so-called pros happen to know the piece that's playing well enough. The phrasing is often predictable but the particular mood of the song isn't necessarily. Certainly pros should be proficient enough to dance in phrase.

[etp777]

I suppose that's much easier if the so-called pros happen to know the piece that's playing well enough.

Heh, there's one particular Paso that for a while was used almost exclusively at our local comps (can't remember name, but sure everyone here has heard it). Couple that one Pro Rhythm comp at nationals here in July obviously either recognized song after it started, or just choreographed for it to start, as they were dancing along completely with the music, including a neck drop (or whatever proper term is) right with a particular crescendo and accent in the song. Definitely cooler to see than when less skilled dancers ignore the music completely besides the count. Course, that's why they're pros.

[Josh]

Heh, there's one particular Paso that for a while was used almost exclusively at our local comps (can't remember name, but sure everyone here has heard it). Couple that one Pro Rhythm comp at nationals here in July obviously either recognized song after it started, or just choreographed for it to start, as they were dancing along completely with the music, including a neck drop (or whatever proper term is) right with a particular crescendo and accent in the song. Definitely cooler to see than when less skilled dancers ignore the music completely besides the count. Course, that's why they're pros.

That would be "Espana Cani" ... this is THE paso song, and I've rarely heard one played at comps that's not this song. ALL pro routines (and all Pro/Am ones that I've seen as well) are choreographed to this song, because it is the one that WILL be played. While there are variations done by different orchestras, the song itself, including the phrasing, is practically identical.

[etp777]

No one else was choreographed to the song, or if they had attempted to, they sure didn't fit it as well.

We actually have used a few other songs at local comps, but yeah, that is the one. Knew someone would know. :)

[tuftufwang]

That would be "Espana Cani" ... this is THE paso song, and I've rarely heard one played at comps that's not this song. ALL pro routines (and all Pro/Am ones that I've seen as well) are choreographed to this song, because it is the one that WILL be played. While there are variations done by different orchestras, the song itself, including the phrasing, is practically identical.

We're getting off-topic a bit but I guess the discussion on music genre is somewhat relevant. I have actually, believe it or not, danced to a track from the Titanic theme song, for a Paso at a competition!!! I have also danced to a Celine Dion song for a samba and when that happened, I remember the dancers on the floor looking slightly frozen for about 5 seconds because we all thought that it was a rumba but couldn't quite get the rhythm!!

I think that the choice of music is so very important. Ok, what we're dancing isn't the authentic style that originated from Latin roots but at least the music should speak to the essence of the dance right? I mean, I absolutely HATE dancing to that stupid Shakira song (it's pop Latin not Cuban or Brazilian and the beat isn't quite right either). Shouldn't comp organizers tell the DJs to stick to certain types of music??? Some of the music choices for the UK Open and German Open are downright appalling. As a competitor, I get highly annoyed (yes, I have rolled my eyes every time I hear stupid music) at a competition when I just can't get into the cha cha.

[White Chacha]

I'll tell you a story. I used to get completely peeved at lousy music during my rounds... until my partner got a hold of me and set me straight. She noted bluntly that when I got upset about the lousy music it affected my dancing. She was right.

So now, I note the music, make sure it's the right rhythm for the dance to be done, and I just dance the best I can to the music that's there. I feel better, my partner feels better, and we both dance better :-)

[Nik]

It's of course entirely possible that I am unable to see the emotional involvement of the dancers because I have no emotional response to the music myself in the first place.

But if you are going to argue that this music actually does evoke deep emotional responses in these dancers, there are a lot of other things to explain, such as:
- the fact that their movements almost never match the music (usually because they are a choreographed routine that hasn't much to do with the music they get at the comp) - the OP's clip is a great example of this, and yet it is supposed to be an example of really good-quality dancing, not comparable to your example of a native dancer doing a poor job
- the fact that the arm/leg styling and movements are all of the same sharp, elucidated character, regardless of the song that's playing
- the fact that there is almost no discussion of music at all in the ballroom forum, except when trying to find a piece that would fit a particular routine, timing, or costume (!!) rather than the other way around. Et cetera.

I think one would have an easier time arguing that dancesport is just not about the music, it's about the movement (like aesthetic gymnastics with a background track) and it shouldn't be held to a musical standard. And like I said, that's fine as well, but the reason for the feather-ruffling is probably just the insistence on keeping the names of art forms that at this point are pretty much unrelated to it.


Well sure. You can have a 'native dancer' who dances a 'native dance' badly; just like you have a spectrum of ability in ballroom. There's a range for everything.


I think you *can* do it 'right' if not born into it, but it takes a lot of experience and training. (After all, the only difference between 'native' and 'non-native' is their cumulative amount of exposure to the music and dance in question.)

I know plenty of non-Latino salseros who've been complimented on their dancing by 'natives,' but those people have all been working on their salsa for years. I also know an African-American woman who is married to a Greek friend of mine. She is an amazing dancer with a lot of talent for understanding the feel of a dance, and she inevitably gets applause from Greeks for the absolute understanding with which she's picked up the motions (which, although not necessarily physically demanding, are usually almost impossible to replicate for non-natives). But she's been working on it for years. Nobody gets up there and does it right the first time.

Anyway, this is kind of a fun diversion but I'm not sure how it's relevant to the OP. I'm cool to keep talking about it though, as long as we don't get called out for hijacking the thread (which was originally billed as an attempt to understand the linked YouTube conversation).




Well sure. I'm going to continue to reiterate that people have a right to whatever music and dance they like. But because most of the people in this thread are ballroom people (and mostly of the same opinion) I'm trying to offer the other view, as originally requested by the OP.



Are you sure that you have the ability to see, judge, or even have an educated opinion on the topics which you are listing? Do you have any backround or training which enables you to point out where and how someone can feel the music? Are you skilled enough to see when someone actually dances to the music?

I would love to see a video of some authentic samba which you speak of, or better yet, a video of you doing authentic samba with feeling and rhythm.


I made a cd of my favorite latin music so I can feel it when I practice to it. With every different song I can tailor my ruitine so that it flows better and hold some places longer or speed it up or make different accents, to be musical. Because I believe I am starting to have a solid foundation of body control, I feel what I do with my body, in a controled manor, I don't just throw my arms around and pretend that I'm doing something.


So lets see that authentic dancing..... :)

[rjcbear]

Hmmm,

IHO we ballroom dancers trying to convince and try to change the mind of people that have this convictions about ballroom dancing that is fake and not natural.

So we have two groups the lovers of ballroom and the Haters of ballroom. So is like politics we will not get any where at all. So I think we ballroom dancers should continue to do what we love to the best of our abilities and leave those that do not like ballroom dancing in the side lines and be done with it.

[dance234]

Great post, noobster.

[DanceScientist]

Yeah, I never knew people were so fired up about this topic until I started posting videos of Samba on YouTube. :) In fact, some people appeared to be completely ignorant of the existence of the International style of Samba and only knew of the Brazilian version!

[biggestbox]

I'll tell you a story. I used to get completely peeved at lousy music during my rounds... until my partner got a hold of me and set me straight. She noted bluntly that when I got upset about the lousy music it affected my dancing. She was right.

So now, I note the music, make sure it's the right rhythm for the dance to be done, and I just dance the best I can to the music that's there. I feel better, my partner feels better, and we both dance better :-)

This is on the right track. When you get strange music (and you WILL get strange music) it is important to react to this. There is an old video where Bryan Watson demos with Karen Hardy. They play cha cha to different style of music, some very low with a heavy base and others with a very soft base and strong melody. You can see him reacting to the music, it is really nice to watch. Watson says that it is important not to preplan your styling and let it react to the music.

[White Chacha]

Last night I was looking at my recording of the DWTS season 1 dance off results show. Eric and Edyta did a samba showcase. The female announcer introduced it as a "Brazilian Samba" but it wasn't. I can only imagine the letters.

[noobster]

Are you sure that you have the ability to see, judge, or even have an educated opinion on the topics which you are listing? Do you have any backround or training which enables you to point out where and how someone can feel the music? Are you skilled enough to see when someone actually dances to the music?

Competitive dance is by definition a spectator event, and we are all entitled to our respective opinions. You can have yours, tuftuf can have his, the youtube poster can have his, and I can have mine. Notice that I am not trying to prevent you and tuftuf from having yours; why are you trying to prevent the youtube poster and myself from having ours? If nobody were to be allowed express an opinion except someone who could replicate the feat himself, a lot of music, art, dance, and sport critics and judges would be out of a job.

I would especially like to note that this thread was started as a request by tuftuf for help in understanding that alternative point of view. Therefore, where else but here should I express it?



So lets see that authentic dancing..... :)

This is one of my favorite clips ever. It is a Cuban son.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iI7TDQxMACQ

[PyroStock]

As I said, it might have less of a PR problem if they just called it something else.

The same way a small vocal minority say English spoken/written in America isn't "real English" and we should call it something else? Or how some say "Americans" should be called "USians" or a different name? The ones with the PR problem are the ones making such ridiculous claims.

I think that - when done well - it still retains an essential connection to the music and to the social aspect of dancing, which may be why it doesn't ruffle feathers the way Latin ballroom does. Just a guess.

Of course you want to think that, it makes you feel your style is more accepted even if there's no evidence to prove that. Likewise, as shown earlier in this thread, when the "natives" visited their ballroom dancing friends doing ballroom latin they were very accepting of it here just as your latin friends accept your dancing. I've heard on2 called a bastardization more often because salsa is more popular, however, it would be presumptious of me to assume that meant on2 ruffled more feathers based on that alone.

Finally, it's one thing to post a tactful comment on a forum to discuss a hot topic. It's another to troll like that YouTube poster did. Would you go watch an American football game just to boo and insult the sport? If you did you would be a troll, just like that YouTube poster... who ironically claimed someone else was "trying to pick a fight".

[Nik]

One of my coaches places a very strong emphasis on music in samba, and we spend half the lesson counting and then the other half just trying to dance to the right rhythm. He teaches no technique, just how to be musical and lead your girl.

Just like in any other "sport", in dancesport you have to some how be better than the person next to you, and to do that there are A LOT of other thing involved other than music.

The definition of music is expressing your body to it, there is no exact way of doing this, its your body and your expression.

You are looking at competition dancing, not relaxed self enjoyment dancing. Take a bunch of your "authentic dancers" and put them in a room together, then say I'm gonna pick out the best one and give you $5,000. You will quickly see how they loose a lot of their emotions and feelings and will try to do more body action, etc.... to try and look better than the person next to them.

Now take a somewhat expreinced Latin Pro and watch how they dance at a night club, you will see all the qualities you are talking about and stating that are missing. Because there is nothing else they have to worry about, except exressing their true feelings to the music and enjoying themselves, not things their coaches told them to do to beat their competitors at the next comp and win more money than last time.

International style samba CAN be danced in a way closer to real brazilian samba, but in an invornment which allows it, not a competition floor. Just because there are written steps in a book doesn't mean that the dancer has no feeling for the music or emotion through their body or to their partner.

A lot of your comments are putting down ballroom dancers and that might be the reason you are getting negative feedback posting that on a ballroom dancer forum.

I'd still like to see a clip of authentic Samba which you think shows all those things you listed on the previous page.

[Angel HI]

It is important to remember a couple of key things here regarding the posts of Brazilian Samba:
1. DanceSport is largely what the offended are referring to. And, we must admit, it is a dance far removed from even the BR style.
2. BR Samba has never claimed to be Brazilian Samba - Carioca (another stupid remark from DWTS which seems to specialize in such). BR Samba came from Caribbean Samba, which differs in its rhythms and stylings. I, and only a handfull of other independents, are the only ones whom I know of who includes Carioca (the basic step) in the Samba syllabus.

[waltzgirl]

This is one of my favorite clips ever. It is a Cuban son.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iI7TDQxMACQ

I'm curious: why is that one of your favorites? What about the dancing appeals so much to you?

[noobster]

Of course you want to think that, it makes you feel your style is more accepted even if there's no evidence to prove that. Likewise, as shown earlier in this thread, when the "natives" visited their ballroom dancing friends doing ballroom latin they were very accepting of it here just as your latin friends accept your dancing. I've heard on2 called a bastardization more often because salsa is more popular, however, it would be presumptious of me to assume that meant on2 ruffled more feathers based on that alone.

Okay, so our respective data sets are not in agreement then. The OP felt the existence of "haters of dancesport" to be a problem, at least enough to post a thread about it:

I have noticed that there are many such people who have similar views on dancesport... What I don't understand is why these people HATE ballroom dancing so much to the extent of getting really offended by the very existence of dancesport.

But you (PyroStock) appear to believe, based on your own experiences, that there are as many 'haters' for other forms (e.g. salsa), fine. So you disagree with the whole premise of the thread then.

So why don't you just say that? Just state you don't think 'haters' exist, or are not widespread. Why choose to engage with me specifically, since you're rejecting the premise of the OP?

Now take a somewhat expreinced Latin Pro and watch how they dance at a night club, you will see all the qualities you are talking about and stating that are missing. Because there is nothing else they have to worry about, except exressing their true feelings to the music and enjoying themselves, not things their coaches told them to do to beat their competitors at the next comp and win more money than last time.

I already agreed some time ago that the *reasons* why Latin ballroom can be aesthetically unsatisfying are likely closely linked to the requirements imposed by competition (be they music, competitive spirit, or whatever).

But are you trying to say that because these handicapping conditions obtain, we should change our minds about the aesthetic value of the dance? That's like saying I should think an ugly woman is actually beautiful because the only reason she's ugly is a genetic handicap. I can sympathize with the handicap but I'm not suddenly going to find her attractive for that reason.

A lot of your comments are putting down ballroom dancersAm I putting down the dancers, or simply explaining (as per the OP's request) why I don't find the dance form aesthetically pleasing? If the former, please provide a quoted example and I will be happy to apologize for any offense.

I'm curious: why is that one of your favorites? What about the dancing appeals so much to you?
The music is fluid and soothing yet rhythmic; the dancers are completely in the moment and the music; their movements are unrushed and unhurried but graceful, controlled, and perfectly in tune with each other and with the song.

[latingal]

Okay so far things have remained fairly calm here for what can be a very heated topic, so thank you.

But just wanted to post a general comment to keep things that way (not directed at anybody specifically here). It is harder to interpret the intent behind a post/comment when we do not have the visual and aural cues we might use in person...so please try to keep this in mind when attributing any interpretation to a post.

And again, thank you all for the calm heads here!

[danceronice]

The music is fluid and soothing yet rhythmic; the dancers are completely in the moment and the music; their movements are unrushed and unhurried but graceful, controlled, and perfectly in tune with each other and with the song.

Honestly? I watched the video out of curiosity--my take on it was that it was just the kind of non-dancing that puts me off non-studio social dancing. Where you see feeling, I see hip-wiggling and groping made socially acceptable by the dance context, and just not a lot of movement at all. I'm also not seeing any particular steps or moves that seem required by the music--you could basically do what they're doing to any song with the right time signature without noticing a difference.

I personally PREFER a context where the interaction between the partners is acting--my favorite people to dance with where expression's concerned are my pros because I can be more overt, as it's absolutely clear that it IS pretend. The idea of doing that with someone in a social setting where there aren't clearly-defined conduct boundaries is highly off-putting to me. When I social dance, while I logically know that there's nothing going on, I'm always a bit uneasy because there aren't those rules and I'm never quite sure what my leader's objective is. So I'm always going to understate while social dancing, unless I'm very sure my leader knows that any flirtiness or sensuality is about presentation, not them. (When they do know that it's so much more fun, but I really only know one or two non-pro social-dance partners where they get that, so we can really have fun chewing the scenery.)

[Nik]

I also don't see anything special about the couple you posted, they are fluid but slow, musical but now rhythmical, dancing together but not really connected nor interacting.

Now this is a clip of one of my favorite dancers and one of my favorite sambas. While she doesn't drag him around in a circle while he spins on one leg, there are endless qualities that this couple has.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=uDy2CSuKrIQ

[tuftufwang]

But you appear to believe, based on your own experiences, that there are as many 'haters' for other forms (e.g. salsa), fine. So you disagree with the whole premise of the thread then.

So why don't you just say that? Just state you don't think 'haters' exist, or are not widespread. Why choose to engage with me specifically, since you're rejecting the premise of the OP?


You misunderstand. I am the OP of this topic and I am not engaging with anyone in particular because as many wise DFers have pointed out, it is a futile exercise. I think "haters" of dancesport exist which is why I posted this thread in the first place. I think one poster said that different dance forms can coexist as long as we continue to enjoy what we are doing. If you enjoy salsa (for example), that's great and it's definitely your prerogative to dance your heart out to salsa music. Some of us prefer dancesport and that's just the way it is. No one is putting down other dance forms and holding dancesport to the pedestal. I actually don't - all I've pointed out is that there are people who are vehemently against dancesport and I am merely surprised at the violent objections to it. Several posters including yourself have pointed out the other perspective and I can't argue with that.

There is no point arguing about this because it's just much easier to enjoy dancing, no matter what dance form that may be!! :p

[tuftufwang]

Hmmm,

IHO we ballroom dancers trying to convince and try to change the mind of people that have this convictions about ballroom dancing that is fake and not natural.

So we have two groups the lovers of ballroom and the Haters of ballroom. So is like politics we will not get any where at all. So I think we ballroom dancers should continue to do what we love to the best of our abilities and leave those that do not like ballroom dancing in the side lines and be done with it.

Oh, here you go. RJCbear says it the best!!!:)

[rjcbear]

Oh, here you go. RJCbear says it the best!!!:)

Thank you,

Just like I said in one of the first post. In the wise words of my Aunt let's keep on making Ballroom Dancing "Very Beautiful and Very Elegant"

[noobster]

You misunderstand. I am the OP of this topic and I am not engaging with anyone in particular because as many wise DFers have pointed out, it is a futile exercise.
Sorry, I just realized that I made my post confusing by sticking your quote in there. I was responding to PyroStock, not to you, when I made the comment about 'engaging.' I just put your quote in there to remind everyone of the original point of the thread.

Oh, here you go. RJCbear says it the best!!!:)
I totally agree, and as I've said throughout I think it's anyone's prerogative to seek and and enjoy the form of dancing that s/he enjoys.

Actually I think the posting of videos was quite helpful because it really points up exactly how much this is a matter of personal taste, and not of some generally held standard of 'good dancing.'

Someone who is looking for the type of motion evident in that "tisket-a-tasket" clip that Nik posted is very unlikely to see the beauty of the son video I liked; and conversely, since the music and motion I enjoy are exemplified by that video I posted, it's hard for me to see aesthetic value in Nik's music/dance choice. I'm not going be more specific about my opinion because it would get me in trouble :p; but okay, they're pretty different.

I guess if your eye is trained for the subtlety of up-close-and-personal dancing then peformance/comp dancing looks overblown; conversely if you've trained your eye to look at dancing designed for the stage, more subtle forms just fly right under your radar.

No harm no foul. Happy New Year everybody.

[PyroStock]

Okay, so our respective data sets are not in agreement then.

TufTuf was looking for other people's experiences, but that's just anecdotal data and therefore cannot be used as a solid basis for on2 being more or less accepted among latinos.

I will also add the concept that it disrespects their culture is... silly. Imagine if some Italians claimed NY and Chicago are disrespecting and eroding Italian culture with their bastardized versions of NY and Chicago pizza. :) Perhaps there is some pizza forum with some offended Italian pizza nazi insulting NY pizza, but I would also see that as silly. Sure it's not silly to the pizza nazi, but so what? If food, music and dance only repeated what a few vocal elders and a few vocal "natives" demanded then there wouldn't be such a wide variety to enjoy.

But you appear to believe, based on your own experiences, that there are as many 'haters' for other forms (e.g. salsa), fine. So you disagree with the whole premise of the thread then.

Re-read the OP, the whole premise of the thread was not that there were more haters for ballroom latin than other forms (salsa, etc). That's your strawman.

This is one of my favorite clips ever. It is a Cuban son.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iI7TDQxMACQ

Sometimes he seems hunched over and leaning forward for no reason. Worse, he looks at the floor too often... is either of those ever recommended? Perhaps it's one of your favorites because of the one floor spin trick or that even those who aren't in perfect shape can do some nice moves.

[noobster]

TufTuf was looking for other people's experiences, but that's just anecdotal data and therefore cannot be used as a solid basis for on2 being more or less accepted among latinos.
So you have a controlled study on this topic to cite then?

Re-read the OP, the whole premise of the thread was not that there were more haters for ballroom latin than other forms (salsa, etc). That's your strawman.
Okay, you tell me what the thread is about then, if it's not about ballroom "haters."

Sometimes he seems hunched over and leaning forward for no reason. Worse, he looks at the floor too often... is either of those ever recommended?
Not in Ballroom, obviously, where the ideal is an extremely erect posture, prancing movement, and audience-oriented, cabaret-flavored displays. Suffice it to say that those look as terrible to me as the more relaxed, introspective posture of this dancer looks to you.

Perhaps it's one of your favorites because of the one floor spin trick or that even those who aren't in perfect shape can do some nice moves.
The spin trick is nice but not the reason I like the video. I think it's useful for this discussion though because it does obviously require an incredible amount of body control, and since that was something you guys were pointing out as important I think it's handy that it's in there.

Interestingly, Nik pointed out the slowness of the dance as if it were a flaw. Actually that is one of the things that makes it so lovely to me, and as a dancer yourself you should already know that it takes far more ability, technique, and control to do something slowly than to do it quickly.

Regarding the bodies of the dancers, that's irrelevant as far as I'm concerned, but for what it's worth I think both dancers are beautiful, I would not call either of them 'out of shape'.

As I said, I can understand that you have trouble seeing the aesthetic value of this, since your baseline is so different. I'm not going to engage with you more specifically on this topic because as I said, I think it would be inflammatory.

[PyroStock]

So you have a controlled study on this topic to cite then?

You're the one who claimed on2 was more accepted. I never claimed the reverse. Therefore, the burden of proof is on you.

Okay, you tell me what the thread is about then, if it's not about ballroom "haters."

It is about latin ballroom haters as the topic title suggests. The whole thread's premise is not about there being more or less haters for ballroom latin than other forms (salsa, etc). I'm not surprised you believe that as most want to feel accepted and not hated.

Not in Ballroom, obviously, where the ideal is an extremely erect posture, prancing movement, and audience-oriented, cabaret-flavored displays. Suffice it to say that those look as terrible to me as the more relaxed, introspective posture of this dancer looks to you.

I didn't comment on movement. Yes, I obviously never expected ballroom posture, but you're the 1st person I've ever heard call "leaning forward" as "relaxed". I also don't see how looking at the floor helps the dancer or pleases the spectator... perhaps you have a link to some website showing all those features as recommended for this style? I'm always eager to learn.

Interestingly, Nik pointed out the slowness of the dance as if it were a flaw. Actually that is one of the things that makes it so lovely to me, and as a dancer yourself you should already know that it takes far more ability, technique, and control to do something slowly than to do it quickly.

I would stay away from absolutes.

Regarding the bodies of the dancers, that's irrelevant as far as I'm concerned, but for what it's worth I think both dancers are beautiful, I would not call either of them 'out of shape'.

I never said their bodies were awful, but unless asked I won't go into their appearance further just to keep this on topic.

As I said, I can understand that you have trouble seeing the aesthetic value of this, since your baseline is so different.

On the contrary, I did see some aesthetic value given the context.
It also seems like a social event with some locals having fun showing off their new moves they've learned. A very friendly and warm setting. :)

Edit: I just read the comments for it. From the commentary, it sounds like the female is a teacher. I would guess the guy is probably her student.

I'm not going to engage with you more specifically on this topic because as I said, I think it would be inflammatory.

No problem. I've seen debates with hotter topics than this where both sides could express their opinion without it being too inflammatory. If you cannot control your emotions or language then it's best for you to stop.

[White Chacha]

This conversation reminds me of something a friend's mother once said to me back in high school.

The topic was 20th century (so old now) composers of concert music. She was trying to broaden our horizons by suggesting we listen to some piece by Alban Berg. I undoubtedly made a face and she countered with, "I know I know, too modern. We always like best the music we know best."

I wonder whether there isn't some of that at work here. We always like best the dance we know best...

In the case of the video of the couple doing Son (if that's the correct way to say it), knowing the dance we might imagine along with them the pleasure of the movement. The pleasure is beautiful and colors our visual impression.

Much like the sport dancer is familiar with the feeling of movment and the appearance of her dance. That set of actions and visual impressions she's so highly trained to do, and therefore feels so familiar to her. She can't help but be drawn to that beauty.

[anp73ga31]

Who's to say what type of dance or type of music a person finds inspirational or moving except for the person himself/herself?

I know all dances originate from somewhere but the arguments I keep hearing from the people of these countries make me think of a kid crying out "mine, mine!" when someone tries to get him to share. Sad that they cant just be proud to say that the dance originated in their country and be flattered that foreigners liked it enough to want to imitate it by putting their own spin on it and making it their own. Of course it will never look like the original; its not supposed to. Dancers often take pieces of things and incorporate it into their own style. Since when is that creativity seen as wrong? I guess the thing that makes me sad about this whole argument is how hypocritical people can be....why would you look down your nose at the way someone dances? Just be glad they, like you, see the value and the fun and the joy of dancing and let them do their own thing... :(

[flashdance]

Thank you,

Just like I said in one of the first post. In the wise words of my Aunt let's keep on making Ballroom Dancing "Very Beauty and Very Elegant"

Indeed :) Can't understand how anyone can hate dance in any form.

Youtube seems to attract idiots on their comments section at times :sigh:

[Nik]

Being slow is not at all a flaw, but if you are talking about music then I would find spots to syncopate my body in ceratain places so that when I do the slow movements, they are slow in contrast to the quick movements, not just slow the whole time.

I go out dancing VERY regularly and as I have posted many times before, I enjoy it much more than my latin or ballroom dancing. One of these reasons is that I am free to not having technique, posture, frame, presentation, blah blah blah, but rather I just dance what I feel to that perticular song. This is very different than my latin practices and it takes a little bit of time to actually loosen up and flow with the rhythm. I watch many other really good dancer and appretiate what they do. They might not have great technique but they also enjoy themselves. That is why we all dance, to enjoy moving our bodies to music.

To post that ballroom dancers have no feeling for the music or emotion for the dance is wrong, but yet, is exactly what was posted a few pages back. This is the only reason I am in this discussion, because this is one of the main focuses of latin, is the feeling and emotion of the dance, to get into the character of the specific dance and portray it throughout.



So I would still really like to see a video of authentic samba to which you would compare our Latin Samba.

[dance234]

i'm sure our Nik is an exception, but i must say (and i say this as a ballroom dancer) that watching ballroom dancers dance in a club is one of the funnier things i've ever seen. when i go to comps and enjoy the after-parties, the dancing i see there is always the highlight, because it shows how narrow the ballroom idea of dancing and body movement in general is.

[Angel HI]

This is a very good point.
Who's to say what type of dance or type of music a person finds inspirational or moving except for the person himself/herself?

Re....

Quote:
Originally Posted by noobster
This is one of my favorite clips ever. It is a Cuban son.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iI7TDQxMACQ


The clip is OK . I have studied Son, long and hard, and am more a fan of the Mexican, Argentine, more Bolero-ish styles. Nonetheless, the more uptempo Son is gerat in its own right. The clip is of social dance, and should not be compared or condemned to/by B/R standards. The turn sequence arround 2:00 mins is incredible, and could stand up to DS latin standards.

I know all dances originate from somewhere but the arguments I keep hearing from the people of these countries make me think of a kid crying out "mine, mine!" when someone tries to get him to share. Sad that they cant just be proud to say that the dance originated in their country ...

Exactly!

[Angel HI]

But you (PyroStock) appear to believe...that there are as many 'haters' for other forms.... So you disagree with the whole premise of the thread then.

The premise of the whole thread is, or was, that there are some who believe that the admittedly, over-the-top exaggerations of most DS latin disrespects the native origins of those dances. Pyro's pizza example is a good one. I believe that we all have agreed that DS, or even BR, is not true to many origins, but is an emulation, adaptation, or interpretation of a respective dance.


Sometimes he seems hunched over and leaning forward for no reason. Worse, he looks at the floor too often...

Again, let's remember that this is social dance. We can not -must not- relate or confuse social dance (foreign or domestic) with Social dance (Bronze BR). Leaning forward might be very acceptable in that culture for social dancing at a club on a friday night. The Lindy Hop craze is still intermigling with BR studios, comps, and socials all over the U.S. The characteristic lean is not frowned upon at all.

I will also add the concept that it disrespects their culture is... silly.

We also agree that all dance is interpretive to some degree, and such is the nature of the art. Though, certain interpretations can be disrespectful, this is not the intent of DS or BR, and thus, those who are as the person described in the OP's Op, should not feel such.

[meow]

Gosh. I am sure the caveman 'danced' to his heartbeat, or rain splashes, or something - dance is evolving all the time. If a particular style originated in a certain country then be proud that others enjoy it and it has continued the never-ending 'evolvement' journey. Ever get the feeling that some people will complain about 'all and anything?'

[PyroStock]

Again, let's remember that this is social dance. We can not -must not- relate or confuse social dance (foreign or domestic) with Social dance (Bronze BR). Leaning forward might be very acceptable in that culture for social dancing at a club on a friday night. The Lindy Hop craze is still intermigling with BR studios, comps, and socials all over the U.S. The characteristic lean is not frowned upon at all.

And one also cannot -must not- assume the reverse since leaning forward and floor watching might not be acceptable for a good Son dancer in that culture even at a club... hence my inquiry. And as mentioned earlier it would have been silly to assume American ballroom posture. The lindy leans aren't frowned upon as they have a history and purpose which I'm sure a search of the swing forum would best explain, but here's one quote: "As for the bent forward posture used when dancing the Lindy Hop, Frankie Manning is on the video from ”Can’t Top the Lindy Hop” specifically describing how he made a conscious decision to bend over, to change the look and line of the dance, to set him apart from other dancers. Note that he was still thinking like a dancer and performer, aware of the lines of the body. It wasn’t totally arbitrary; he knew the aesthetics." I only asked to see a link with an explanation for the leaning and floor watching in the video, but now given your experience and recent posts it seems even more possible it is just a student making forgiveable mistakes.

We also agree that all dance is interpretive to some degree, and such is the nature of the art. Though, certain interpretations can be disrespectful, this is not the intent of DS or BR, and thus, those who are as the person described in the OP's Op, should not feel such.

Agreed.

[noobster]

In the case of the video of the couple doing Son (if that's the correct way to say it), knowing the dance we might imagine along with them the pleasure of the movement. The pleasure is beautiful and colors our visual impression.

Much like the sport dancer is familiar with the feeling of movement and the appearance of her dance. That set of actions and visual impressions she's so highly trained to do, and therefore feels so familiar to her. She can't help but be drawn to that beauty.
That was very well said and has a great deal of truth to it.

You're the one who claimed on2 was more accepted. I never claimed the reverse. Therefore, the burden of proof is on you.
Right. We have no data except our respective individual experiences here. The existence of 'ballroom haters' has been noticed by several here and acknowledged to be a problem. I hang out on the salsa boards a lot and I've never seen any discussion of 'salsa haters' (except wrt people who don't dance to the music, and as I said that seems to be more of an individual problem than any quibble with the form itself). Therefore, whatever circumstantial evidence is available to me does not support your claim of 'haters' being equally distributed. That's all.

I only asked to see a link with an explanation for the leaning and floor watching in the video,
Unlike ballroom, son has no rule book. It is a social art, and there are no defined standards. That is why the social dances have such freedom and flexibility. My personal feel about the floor-watching is, as I said, that it gives a more introspective flavor to the dance. The forward set of the guy's shoulders is a very typical posture seen on men who dance street styles; it projects masculinity and differentiates his dance aura from that of the woman. (Contrast with the lordotic posture and wiggling hips of the male dancers in Latin ballroom, which signal femininity to someone whose eyes are trained otherwise.) I don't know if you've seen much hip-hop, but male hip-hop dancers and krumpers also often have the forward lean and the floor-watch going on.

but now given your experience and recent posts it seems even more possible it is just a student making forgivable mistakes.Both dancers are native Cubans, teachers, and experienced performers from the Cubamemucho team.

http://www.dance-forums.com/competitions/details.php?id=93

The setting is a Cuban salsa congress held in London.

Nonetheless, the more uptempo Son is great in its own right. The clip is of social dance, and should not be compared or condemned to/by B/R standards. The turn sequence arround 2:00 mins is incredible, and could stand up to DS latin standards.
I would like to reiterate the very good point that social dance and competition ballroom are not directly comparable, since their intentions are so different. Also I have no interest in trying to convince anyone of the aesthetic value of the dance; as I've said before, each of us has his own preferences and that is fine. (I did think it was interesting to see some of the reactions though; aesthetics aside, I was curious to note that people were literally unable to appreciate the difficulty of the spin trick because it was not something they were used to seeing. Fascinating.)

I posted the clip because someone (Nik I think) asked to see an example of high-quality "native" Latin dancing, and I chose this one because it is a really lovely clip and it is a relatively 'unadulterated' social form that is here danced by people who are native to the country of its origin, but who are also experienced and internationally recognized performers.

[Josh]

The forward set of the guy's shoulders is a very typical posture seen on men who dance street styles; it projects masculinity and differentiates his dance aura from that of the woman. (Contrast with the lordotic posture and wiggling hips of the male dancers in Latin ballroom, which signal femininity to someone whose eyes are trained otherwise.)

Both dancers are native Cubans, teachers, and experienced performers from the Cubamemucho team.

http://www.dance-forums.com/competitions/details.php?id=93



There are degrees to which male latin dancers will use their hips--some much more so than others, and some do indeed look feminine. Strong, masculine male latin dancers WILL have a strong prescence through the chest, but will not hunch over, which projects anything but masculinity and confidence ("lazy" and "laid back" come to mind). (incidentally, in the clip you posted, when the male dancer is upright his posture is good, and he wiggles his hips too, and I happen to like this clip) But while we're talking about masculinity, how about the "authentic street dancers" featured on your above link? Do all of the males project a masculine look? Masculinity or feminity is a function of the dancer, as is obvious in this case, and not necessarily of the genre.

As for "lordotic" posture (wow, thefreedictionary.com is my friend here lol), if a male latin dancer does have an overarched back, then he's not dancing it correctly, unless it's some type of temporary shaping, or unless it's something in Paso.

[kimV6]

i've just been hovering over this thread for a while. thought i'd pop in and comment that while the turn sequence in the clip was certainly difficult, i wonder if OP's opponent on the youtube thread would consider that legitimate cuban rumba. the whole turning thing seemed much more flashy, and less "authentic" than what i would have expected "legitimate" "native dance" to be. almost like b-boys spinning on their heads.
also thought i should point out that when i was in high school and wanted to learn to tango, argentine was not even on my radar; it was the BR style that i had pictured in my head... indicating what i think "haters" are afraid of, that that unique cultural expression will be lost. almost like the intensity people have about dying languages, or any other cultural traits.
it also makes me wonder a bit, that standard doesn't seem to get as much flak, perhaps because their dances were appropriated long ago. actually, the reverse happened for me at school, when an AT club popped up; i was afraid people would join them instead of our BR team because of the promise of explicitly learning "tango," which we use as one of our selling points (how else do you get male college freshmen on a team, right? :P )
i also just laughed at the inordinate number of quotation marks i used.

[PyroStock]

Right. We have no data except our respective individual experiences here. The existence of 'ballroom haters' has been noticed by several here and acknowledged to be a problem. I hang out on the salsa boards a lot and I've never seen any discussion of 'salsa haters' (except wrt people who don't dance to the music, and as I said that seems to be more of an individual problem than any quibble with the form itself). Therefore, whatever circumstantial evidence is available to me does not support your claim of 'haters' being equally distributed. That's all.

With that logic, the haters were equally distributed until the day this thread appeared at which point more ballroom haters were suddenly created. Nice. Do you know what circumstantial means (?) because that term supports my point that your claim isn't well supported. Again, I never made any claim of the haters distribution. More importantly, the inadequate sample size from this one thread in no way supports your claim of there being less on2 haters. That's all.

Unlike ballroom, son has no rule book. It is a social art, and there are no defined standards. That is why the social dances have such freedom and flexibility. My personal feel about the floor-watching is, as I said, that it gives a more introspective flavor to the dance. The forward set of the guy's shoulders is a very typical posture seen on men who dance street styles; it projects masculinity and differentiates his dance aura from that of the woman. (Contrast with the lordotic posture and wiggling hips of the male dancers in Latin ballroom, which signal femininity to someone whose eyes are trained otherwise.) I don't know if you've seen much hip-hop, but male hip-hop dancers and krumpers also often have the forward lean and the floor-watch going on.

By that standard of measure they could be jumping and sky watching given the "freedom and flexibility""with no rule book". As for lindy-hoppers, hip-hoppers and krumpers... the reason one leans forward in lindy is not necessarily the exact same reason one might lean forward in any other dance. Even the thread titled "Leaning Back" in the salsa forum gave a better possible explanation for how a "slight slant" directly applies to the dance steps, but his seemed much more than slight. I also agree with Josh, a strong chest presentation is more masculine.

As for wiggling hips, per the definition, wiggle implies quick and even salsa-city states cuban motion is "Cuban-motion, the typical latin-dance hip action, is not hard to achieve and will give your salsa dancing an authentic look and feel: a controlled and pleasant swaying that arises naturally if the steps are performed in a relaxed manner. The hip movement should not be deliberate in any way, it should arise as a consequence of doing the steps properly with a smooth shifting of weight from foot to foot, it is not achieved by “wiggling you bum”. I've also never heard any teacher suggest a lordotic posture, which would be awkward. It sounds like someone gave you some buzz words that just don't typically apply.

While searching "forward lean" in the salsa forum for a better explanation of your video I found in the "Shoulder Shimmies" thread another salsa dancer saying they "don't agree that leaning forward is 'more masculine," and she later explains. Even then your only retort was "oh well, just IMHO"... I agree with her. Thanks for your "personal feel" about the floor watching and forward leans, but I was looking more for facts on the Son dance and culture itself to explain it and not your individual preconceived biases.

I had also read an article by a salsa fan who described salsa as "gloriously feminine". :) Many eyes have been trained to see any dancing as feminine. Shaving the masculine mustache and beard could be argued as feminine as these are strictly male features. So to appear the most masculine one stops shaving, stops dancing and... fist fights a bear? ;)

Both dancers are native Cubans, teachers, and experienced performers from the Cubamemucho team.
http://www.dance-forums.com/competitions/details.php?id=93
The setting is a Cuban salsa congress held in London.

Cubamemucho and congress were also mentioned in the commentary, but you might be confusing that dancer for someone else. IF he is one of those guys, which one do you think he is? Why?

I was curious to note that people were literally unable to appreciate the difficulty of the spin trick because it was not something they were used to seeing. Fascinating.

Re-read my earlier post, I said I thought that was possibly the main reason you liked it. Fascinating that you came to the conclusion above instead. I've seen similiar floor tricks in other dances, but that was the first I've seen a guy take the follower's role for it. I'm sure you saw that as masculine for him too.

[noobster]

With that logic, the haters were equally distributed until the day this thread appeared at which point more ballroom haters were suddenly created. Nice. More importantly, the inadequate sample size from this one thread in no way supports your claim of there being fewer on2 haters. That's all.
As I said, it's what we've got to go on. As I've also said, you're free to post any further data you may have on the subject. Till then, this is how it stands, like it or not.

it is not achieved by “wiggling you bum”. I've also never heard any teacher suggest a lordotic posture, which would be awkward. It sounds like someone gave you some buzz words that just don't typically apply. Why would you think "someone gave me some buzz words" if they don't typically apply? That (like much else in your posts) makes no sense. My use of 'wiggle' and 'lordotic' were my layman's way of putting into words the movement and posture I saw, e.g., on Nik's video of Slavik. Not being a ballroom dancer myself I don't know what terms you guys use for what he was doing, so I just described it as I observed it.

Thanks for your "personal feel" about the floor watching and forward leans, but I was looking more for facts on the Son dance and culture itself to explain it and not your individual preconceived biases.All you're ever going to get is different dancers' personal opinions. Obviously they won't all agree 100% of the time. For all the freestyle social dances, there is some collective understanding about what's 'good' and what's not, describing a roughly defined category with a lot of disagreement around the edges. The day there's a rule book for this stuff is the day the dance ossifies. In case you didn't get the memo, this is not ballroom.

I also agree with Josh, a strong chest presentation is more masculine.But you and Josh don't agree on whether the dancer in the video has good posture or not. Josh thinks his posture is good, you think he is hunching. So it doesn't sound as if ballroom dancers are all in 100% agreement over this stuff either, and you guys *do* have rule books.

Cubamemucho and congress were also mentioned in the commentary, but you might be confusing that dancer for someone else. IF he is one of those guys, which one do you think he is? Why?The "about this video" section says it depicts "the Cubamemucho Team of dancers who are touring the world at the moment. Here in London we thought that Juan gave the best Casino lesson we ever took. Here he is in action!!!..."

Re-read my earlier post, I said I thought that was possibly the main reason you liked it. Fascinating that you came to the conclusion above instead. Fascinating that you imagine all of my comments are directed specifically to you. Hatband feeling a little tight there maybe?

I've seen similiar floor tricks in other dances, but that was the first I've seen a guy take the follower's role for it. I'm sure you saw that as masculine for him too.Leaving aside your irrelevant snarkiness, I'd be interested to see a clip where a woman pulls off a trick like that (getting down into a completely horizontal position and then back up, supported on a single foot the entire time). The only ones I could imagine handling it might be 14-y/o gymnasts, and they aren't usually interested in dancing son.

But while we're talking about masculinity, how about the "authentic street dancers" featured on your above link? Do all of the males project a masculine look? Masculinity or feminity is a function of the dancer, as is obvious in this case, and not necessarily of the genre.
Sure. Individual dancers are free to play with and subvert the gender roles of the genre, why not? It's fun; I've done it myself.

it also makes me wonder a bit, that standard doesn't seem to get as much flak, perhaps because their dances were appropriated long ago.
That's interesting. I definitely do not have the bad reaction to smooth or standard that I have to latin. It looks very pretty to me, elegant, quite formal and often the music doesn't speak to me, but it doesn't at all give me that gut reaction that I have to the latin. Where do you mean standard was "appropriated" from? Weren't those dances always pretty well defined? I haven't any idea of the history of standard; I guess I picture it arising from the parlor entertainments of the Western nobility.

[tangotime]

i've just been hovering over this thread for a while. thought i'd pop in and comment that while the turn sequence in the clip was certainly difficult, i wonder if OP's opponent on the youtube thread would consider that legitimate cuban rumba. the whole turning thing seemed much more flashy, and less "authentic" than what i would have expected "legitimate" "native dance" to be. a team, right? :P )




Actually --yes -- its common in Cuban Son-- among other more extreme figures.
However, I would characterise these types of moves more on the exhibition style ,than the social level .

[tangotime]

Leaving aside your irrelevant snarkiness, I'd be interested to see a clip where a woman pulls off a trick like that (getting down into a completely horizontal position and then back up, supported on a single foot the entire time). The only ones I could imagine handling it might be 14-y/o gymnasts, and they aren't usually interested in dancing son.





First--I am in agreement with much of your post-- one slight contradiction..--- there are world class Latin and Theatre Arts types, who have done exactly the same ( all probably in their twenties -early thirties ).

No-- its not common place, but it has been achieved . And by the way, this is empirical .

[tangotime]

. Where do you mean standard was "appropriated" from? Weren't those dances always pretty well defined? I haven't any idea of the history of standard; .





Hardly-- you would probably not recognise them in comparison to todays interpretations. .
They have evolved ( and continue to, in a much slower fashion ) from much simpler and humbler , in some cases, beginnings .

Also, there are several dances that were not even existence when I began-- Cha-- Intern. Rumba -- Salsa/ Mambo-- Hustle-- the list goes on .

Add to this, the concepts of the " smooth " side of dance, may not be as apparent to the inexperienced eye-- but in some case, quite dramatic changes-- particularly and specifically in Tango and Q / Step , have taken place.

[Angel HI]

(Contrast with the lordotic posture and wiggling hips of the male dancers in Latin ballroom, which signal femininity to someone whose eyes are trained otherwise.)

Which, incidentally, in BR, is extremely different from its native character.

The forward set of the guy's shoulders is a very typical posture seen on men who dance street styles; it projects masculinity and differentiates his dance aura from that of the woman. The forward set of the guy's shoulders is a very typical posture seen on men who dance street styles; it projects masculinity and differentiates his dance aura from that of the woman. (Contrast with the lordotic posture and wiggling hips of the male dancers in Latin ballroom, which signal femininity to someone whose eyes are trained otherwise.)

It seems that what is forgotten here is that we are speaking of what is apropos in a different culture. In all countries where I have traveled, dance is practically a mandated thing for the men to know. But, U.S. men would rather die than dance (generalities taken here, of course).

There are degrees to which male latin dancers will use their hips--some much more so than others, and some do indeed look feminine. Strong, masculine male latin dancers WILL have a strong prescence through the chest, but will not hunch over, which projects anything but masculinity and confidence ("lazy" and "laid back" come to mind).

Though I agree with the first sentence, again, I say, the posture referred to here might be lazy and laid back in the U.S., but not somewere else. I read recently of an African culture where the male proves his masculinity (and, my add, improves his dominance) by how loving and giving he is to his mate. This, in the U.S. would be picked upon as being submissive, or lacking masculinity.

[Angel HI]

...also thought i should point out that when i was in high school and wanted to learn to tango, argentine was not even on my radar; it was the BR style that i had pictured in my head...


This is interesting because it speaks directly to the bottom line of this thread, as I see it. kimV6 sought BR tango because that is what she was exposed to in her culture. The Argentines are exposed to tango as it is done there. Either might develop thoughts of the correctness or incorrectness of the other, but, save for authenticities, etc., neither has the right to negatively criticize the other without a native insight of its culture, society, and characteristic.

[Josh]

the posture referred to here might be lazy and laid back in the U.S., but not somewere else. I read recently of an African culture where the male proves his masculinity (and, my add, improves his dominance) by how loving and giving he is to his mate. This, in the U.S. would be picked upon as being submissive, or lacking masculinity.

I was coming from the perspective of a ballroom dancer, not a dancer in the U.S.--IMHO, I think most dancers of the ballroom genre (incl. latin), regardless of their location in the world, would find his posture "laid back" ... again, it's not necessarily a bad thing, just an observation.

As for U.S. culture, I think the media portrayal of the typical american family-oriented male (dumb, not in control of things, indifferent to his wife, etc.) is quite skewed from the reality, though how would anyone support either side of this claim? The same could be said for the typical american wife. Sure, some would pick on a man for being loving and giving to his wife, but I think those who would do not represent the majority or even a significant portion of the "real" population of people living here. In my experience, when I do ANYthing with confidence, NObody picks on me. So, if men are getting picked on for anything, I'd suggest two things to them: pick a different set of people to spend their time with, and do things with increased confidence. People who bully or pick on other people only do it for one reason: their own insecurities. Confidence will win out over insecurities every time.

[Josh]

But you and Josh don't agree on whether the dancer in the video has good posture or not. Josh thinks his posture is good, you think he is hunching. So it doesn't sound as if ballroom dancers are all in 100% agreement over this stuff either, and you guys *do* have rule books.

Well, what I said before was that "when the male dancer is upright his posture is good." I think that in many places his posture is good, and in others it's not. In the beginning especially, I think his posture is fine for that style of dance--his position appears strong, and he does have a lean, but it's not a slouch. Later on he begins to hunch more, but then again, for this style of dance, it's quite common and acceptable, though it would never be for ballroom. So, it's a matter of perspective. Would he appear to be a strong dancer in the ballroom arena? Nope. Would a ballroom dancer appear to fit the style that he is doing, if he danced with ballroom latin posture? Nope. This is just a case of different styles having different physical characteristics.

We do have rule books, but they are only general guides to add uniformity to the actual "steps" that we do, and they tell us what our feet should probably be doing, how much we might need to turn, timing that we might dance to, and so on. The books don't teach how to properly connect, speak very little about what "good posture" is (and certainly can't teach it), do not explain lead and follow in any useful way, say nothing about how to feel the dance or express emotion or own something, and while some very limited information is given on movement in standard and smooth, in rhythm and latin, there's nothing given on body movement, which is really what latin dancing is! SO, yes, we have books, but they are only there to provide a very basic framework for dancing. 95% of the actual dancing part is not contained in any book.

[Nik]

Did anyone actually watch that crazy ladies clips on youtube who was bashing the amateur finalists? Is she teaching anything authentic? "Touch yourself like you had a long day at work"?


I guess it takes a certain understanding of latin dancing, whichever kind of latin dancing you do, to see the beauty and musicality in those couples. Maurizio, Stefano, I don't think any dancer, authentic latin or not, would say there is no beauty or feeling in them.

This thread is getting very stupid.

[Josh]

Did anyone actually watch that crazy ladies clips on youtube who was bashing the amateur finalists? Is she teaching anything authentic? "Touch yourself like you had a long day at work"?

Lol no, but it sounds funny--link please? (if it would not plunge us further into stupidity lol)

[latingal]

Been standing on the sidelines watching some of the borderline comments in some of the posts...yes, this is an inflammatory subject, but please a reminder again...please be respectful of others opinions...we do not allow personal attacks on this site.

[kimV6]

Where do you mean standard was "appropriated" from? Weren't those dances always pretty well defined?
I was referring to the Germanic peoples' cultural heritage of waltz and vw, though obviously that was quite a long time ago. it was, to be fair, a little tongue in cheek, hehe.

Actually --yes -- its common in Cuban Son-- among other more extreme figures.
However, I would characterise these types of moves more on the exhibition style ,than the social level .

you learn something new everyday

This is interesting because it speaks directly to the bottom line of this thread, as I see it. kimV6 sought BR tango because that is what she was exposed to in her culture.

HE sought BR tango because HE thought it would be a good thing to throw out there on dates. :p though again, the point remains, even now, i don't think of AT as something aesthetically in line with what i would want to achieve (i'm more of a spanish drag-type haha). though it does bring up the philosophical question of whether that's because i've been brainwashed by the BR illuminati that has erased all cultural survivals of other dances. ;)

[PyroStock]

As I said, it's what we've got to go on. As I've also said, you're free to post any further data you may have on the subject. Till then, this is how it stands, like it or not.

You're missing the point, we don't "go on" it at all. That would be a fallacy. Nevertheless, to find some common ground based on your signature, would you agree your claim is a hasty generalization?

Why would you think "someone gave me some buzz words" if they don't typically apply?

Despite your inflammatory potential you mentioned earlier, I gave you the benefit of the doubt thinking ignorant haters could easily have provided you misinformation to spread their opinion.

My use of 'wiggle' and 'lordotic' were my layman's way of putting into words the movement and posture I saw, e.g., on Nik's video of Slavik. Not being a ballroom dancer myself I don't know what terms you guys use for what he was doing, so I just described it as I observed it.

Lordotic is anything but a typical layman's term. If your subculture uses words to mean things different from a basic dictionary or common slang then of course people outside your subculture will correct you, especially if it holds no relation to the original meaning like lordotic. I tried to bridge the "wiggle" gap by giving the cuban motion definition from a salsa (your dance) website.

All you're ever going to get is different dancers' personal opinions. Obviously they won't all agree 100% of the time. For all the freestyle social dances, there is some collective understanding about what's 'good' and what's not, describing a roughly defined category with a lot of disagreement around the edges. The day there's a rule book for this stuff is the day the dance ossifies. In case you didn't get the memo, this is not ballroom.

Again, even the "Back Lean" thread offered more than just a "personal feel" opinion to explain a "slight slant" in afro-cuban culture. Others in this thread seem more familiar with it.

But you and Josh don't agree on whether the dancer in the video has good posture or not. Josh thinks his posture is good, you think he is hunching.

Re-read what Josh and I said, you misunderstood again.

Fascinating that you imagine all of my comments are directed specifically to you.

I never said they were directed specifically to me, but your quote said, "I was curious to note that people were literally unable to appreciate the difficulty of the spin trick". Likewise, if you had said "Mexicans were literally unable to appreciate it" then obviously one isn't going to think you meant "some Mexicans". Given recent events, I will try to give you the benefit of the doubt even more often.

Leaving aside your irrelevant snarkiness, I'd be interested to see a clip where a woman pulls off a trick like that...

Like tangotime said similiar tricks like that have been done. I don't have much time on my hands to dig through clips for a very specific uncommon move, so if you don't want to believe us and instead think that trick is a rare phenomena I don't mind.

I definitely do not have the bad reaction to smooth or standard that I have to latin.

For what it's worth in common ground, I also prefer smooth and standard.

I just don't see what the big deal is in latin or many other dances, particularly when there is a woman dancing with him. A guy would literally have to go out of his way to not appear to be the masculine one.

I read recently of an African culture where the male proves his masculinity (and, my add, improves his dominance) by how loving and giving he is to his mate. This, in the U.S. would be picked upon as being submissive, or lacking masculinity.

That might better explain the floor watching too. In many mammals, the lowering of the head and looking at the ground is seen as a sign of submission. Perhaps by giving his submission to the woman he's showing his love/masculinity?

[meow]

I love Dancesport standard and latin. It appeals to me. That said, I don't love salsa, AT, meringue, etc. BUT, I don't hate it and can appreciate them. It is a personal choice of what I enjoy.
Dancing, to me, is a love of movement to music and the story it tells. Little 2 year olds can jump up and down to the beat of music and that is their form of dancing.
Dance has evolved over milleniums and even what one may consider an 'original' Argentine Tango may not be exactly what it was 1000 years ago. The same can be said of many other forms of dance, including the Dancesport dances.
To 'hate' a form of dance, IMHO isn't productive or considerate, to the dance as it is now or to the way it has been. Who knows what the future holds for many dances as they evolve past our lifetime?
I think all cultures are proud of their heritage. And, even if a 'cultural' dance has evolved into something considered 'different', why not be proud of the fact that others enjoyed it and built upon it. We used to live in caves, cabins, forests - civilisations evolve so it seems illogical to expect dance to remain at a standstill.
Live and let live, I say.

[noobster]

You're missing the point, we don't "go on" it at all. That would be a fallacy. Nevertheless, to find some common ground based on your signature, would you agree your claim is a hasty generalization?
I would reiterate that the available evidence is scanty but that, such as it is, it supports my position rather than yours.

Lordotic is anything but a typical layman's term. If your subculture uses words to mean things different from a basic dictionary or common slang then of course people outside your subculture will correct you, especially if it holds no relation to the original meaning like lordotic.I was using lordotic with its dictionary meaning of having an exaggerated arch in the lumbar region. If the reason for your poor comprehension of my posts is that you have difficulty with my vocabulary I can certainly attempt to simplify it for you.

Like tangotime said similiar tricks like that have been done. I don't have much time on my hands to dig through clips for a very specific uncommon move, so if you don't want to believe us and instead think that trick is a rare phenomenon I don't mind.It's not that I don't believe you (what would I have to gain from that anyway?), it's rather that I'm genuinely curious. I've never seen anything remotely similar in any ballroom clip. I have seen lots of women get down on the floor but they are usually sitting or lying on it, not keeping themselves suspended just off of it. In general the typical 'show moves' I've noted seem to involve fast spins, lifts, splits, etc., rather than displays of extended muscle control.

I just don't see what the big deal is in latin or many other dances, particularly when there is a woman dancing with him. A guy would literally have to go out of his way to not appear to be the masculine one.There is no big deal; actually I think the discussion of this point has gone on about two pages too long now.

That might better explain the floor watching too. In many mammals, the lowering of the head and looking at the ground is seen as a sign of submission. Perhaps by giving his submission to the woman he's showing his love/masculinity?Dunno. Lots of salser@s look at the floor occasionally, e.g. when 'feeling' a particularly cool brass note. Also you can look down to appreciate what your partner is doing with his/her feet and body, if it's something cool. Also if the guy is much taller he is generally going to be looking down at his partner. Also in the elbow-to-elbow Cuban hold often the leader will look down at the paired forearms; IME it adds to the intimacy of that particular hold. There are lots of reasons to look down sometimes when social dancing. You don't want to be constantly staring at the floor of course, but there can be reasons for - and even some stylistic cachet to - looking downward on occasion.

[latingal]

PyroStock and noobster, this could go on for quite some time. Shall we just call it a no win situation and call it quits? Or do you both want to keep up this line of discussion?

Not sure it's really doing anything further to expand the discussion on the original issue, do you?

[PyroStock]

I would reiterate that the available evidence is scanty but that, such as it is, it supports my position rather than yours.

Until someone posts evidence otherwise the scanty evidence also supports latin ballroom as the most hated thing in the entire world! And what a coincidence it's in a thread discussing haters of dancesport. :)

this could go on for quite some time. Shall we just call it a no win situation and call it quits?

I could continue with lordotic and other things already covered, but to be amiable I can get off this merry-go-round.

[latingal]

I could continue with lordotic and other things already covered, but to be amiable I can get off this merry-go-round.

Thank you PyroStock, I'd love to stop that dizzy, nauseous feeling if at all possible....noobster?

[tuftufwang]

As the OP of this thread, I must say that I am very appreciative that everyone maintained their cool and even disagreements were kept a very civilized level. It is quite a departure from the very heated discussion that I had with an insufferable and narrow-minded individual on YouTube. Had he or she refrained from insulting BR and merely stated that whatever dance form she advocates is a matter of personal preference, I would have let the matter rest. Noobster, thanks for bringing your perspective to this thread and from your responses, I gather you are a very reasonable individual and accepting of the fact that everyone should have the prerogative to enjoy different dances. I only wished that the poster I was arguing with on YouTube had half your ability to remain respectful and yet still maintain a stand. He/she was undermining the hard work and passion of BR dancers and calling them fake. Further offensive comments were made - "it's a lie and there is no soul behind it. In fact if you took all those fancy costumes off it and took all the fancy backing and money behind it it would fold in about a day."

When I saw that, I was like, ok, I am arguing with an idiot and it's all together pointless.

Anyway, as latingal said, time to let the matter rest. There are going to be people who would never acknowledge or support BR, which is fine. So, as rjcbear says, just enjoy whatever you do and there is absolutely no need to insult other dances.

[latingal]

And that is a fitting end to this thread TufTuf.

[Angel HI]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Angel HI http://www.dance-forums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?p=508104#post508104)
This is interesting because it speaks directly to the bottom line of this thread, as I see it. kimV6 sought BR tango because that is what she was exposed to in her culture.


HE sought BR tango because HE thought it would be a good thing to throw out there on dates. ;)

Not to prolong the close of this thread, but just wanted to apologize for the gender error, KimV6. http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/ashamed/ashamed0001.gif (http://www.mysmiley.net/freesmiley.php?smiley=ashamed/ashamed0001.gif)

[kimV6]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Angel HI http://www.dance-forums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?p=508104#post508104)
This is interesting because it speaks directly to the bottom line of this thread, as I see it. kimV6 sought BR tango because that is what she was exposed to in her culture.

Not to prolong the close of this thread, but just wanted to apologize for the gender error, KimV6. http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/ashamed/ashamed0001.gif (http://www.mysmiley.net/freesmiley.php?smiley=ashamed/ashamed0001.gif)

it's okay. it happens a lot :p

[Angel HI]

Thanks....with me, as well. :razz: