Asking instructors to dance

[Tenehill]

I don't take private lessons.

At social dances, there are often instructors present. I rarely invite lady instructors, because of the following worries. Please share your thoughts about how much off I am.

1) After hours of teaching during the day, they should be tired, even if they don't show it.

2) They are looking to recruit a new student, or re-recruit an old student, and, since I am not going to take private instruction, I don't want to distract them.

3) They are involved in dancing so much, that I doubt that they want to have anything to do with dancing on Saturday evening.

4) I am secretly thinking that their feet and other overloaded body parts should be aching, and don't want to add to the pain.

5) So I think they attend social dances only to recruit and because of having obligations against the studio.

However, I have had some really good dances with instructors.

[Joe]

Those are all valid reasons, but if someone doesn't want to dance they shouldn't be there (reason 5 excepting). If they don't want to dance with you, they can say no.

[etp777]

I'm with Joe, except for the recruiting, they're there to dance same as you (though whether they're there voluntarily or because it's part of their job, may vary).

Besides, instructors tend to be not oonly the best dancers there, but also some of the best looking people there, so don't let these reasons make you pass up a very pleasant dance. :)

[FatBaldGuy60]

From what I have seen, dancing at socials is part of networking for instructors. However, my instructor dances almost every dance, and she is usually the one doing the asking. She dances with a large number of people; some her students; some past students; and just about anyone else including other instructors or their students or just people she gets for specific dances like a quickstep.

This pretty much applies to the other instructors I see at socials. The ones that don't want to dance don't attend them. So, if they are there, I would treat them as any other available random partner, with the added bonus that you know they can probably dance to whatever level you are.

FBG

[chica latina]

Tenehill,

I agree with you... I normally dont ask them for the same reasons. I normally wait to see if they ask me to dance... but I think most of them do it because it's part of their jobs even if they are tired and dont feel like dancing.

[Josh]

tenehill, welcome to DF!

My former studio had required weekly parties, and my current one (though I'm independent) has monthly optional parties. I'll say that one of the goals of teachers is to get newer students interested in dancing, AND sometimes it can feel like work. BUT, I would venture to say that the vast majority of instructors love what they do enough that it's still fun anyway. I've always loved social dances and I just keep it laid back and have fun and dance! I'm sure the person you're referring to will have a similar attitude, and if she doesn't, then at least you've tried by asking her!

Bottom line: ask her to dance!

[rjcbear]

Tenehill,

I will encourage you to ask the instructors to dance. Here is my reasoning. "If you were a Tennis player the only way for you to advance your game will be to play against better players than you". So to improve your dancing dance with better dancers that you. You will get some tip on how to dance some step with out you even realizing because the teacher move in a particular way. So IHO is a win-win situation for both of you the instructor will do what he/she loves to do and you will too.

[nucat78]

Dancing with students is part of their job. I don't hesitate to ask. I did sit out a dance once with an instructor because she said her feet were killing her when I asked how she was doing. While the owner normally wants all his instructors (and students) dancing, all the other students had partners and he had no apparent problem with the two of us sitting and chatting.

There's nothing wrong with being considerate but there's also an understanding that you'll receive the services (dance practice) that you've paid to receive. If an instructor is ailing, then I'd think he or she would (rightfully) take the night off.

[suburbaknght]

While I'm male, I'm also an instructor so I think there might be some validity to my statements.

Instructors love to dance. This job is too much work for too little money to do for any other reason. I love dancing. I love dancing with my top students. I love dancing with my new students. I love dancing with my students friends who've never been to the studio before and will probably never be there again. I love dancing with people just in off the street. I love dancing in other cities. I love dancing at new venues.

And yes, I love when my dancing with someone nets me a sale but that's not why I do it.

At studio parties I follow professional decorum: make sure to ask everyone to dance at least once, preferably before asking the same person twice. Don't dance with the other instructors. Make sure to ask the single students more often than those in pairs. When asking a student with a boyfriend or husband, try to have another instructor ask them at the same time. And never say no to a request to dance.

But that last one isn't really necessary. I admit it: I have an ego the size of Lake Michigan, and it's flattering when someone asks you to dance. It's one of the big perks of this job. If I'm tired and need to sit one out it's easy enough to make myself busy in the kitchen *******ing snacks, to go check on the music, or do any of a number of tasks that drop me from people's visibility. The female instructors do the same things. Heck, they taught me.

It sounds like this is more shyness you're expressing with the instructor's feelings/interests being more of an excuse than a real reason. Don't worry so much about the politics and business angles of the parties. Everyone is there to have fun. That includes the instructors and it includes you.

[mamboqueen]

Hey Josh...I just looked at your website. Not sure if it's new or not, but it looks great. I'm just sitting here thinking you will be attracting all the girls in Atlanta and trying to figure out how to keep them from falling in love with you! ;)

[Indiana_Jay]

I don't take private lessons.

At social dances, there are often instructors present. I rarely invite lady instructors, because of the following worries ...

Tenehill:

Welcome to DF. You don't say in your original post what kind of social you're talking about. If it's a studio social, the instructors who work at that studio are there to dance with all the students, because it's their job! In that situation, there's no reason to avoid inviting an instructor to dance.

Even if you're talking about a non-studio social (such as one put on by your local USA Dance chapter), if an instructor is there, he/she intends to dance and can always turn down an invitation if necessary.

The instructors at the studio we patronized behaved as suburbaknght described (in fact, exactly as he described -- it must be some sort of professional code!). I could see that our instructor was intentionally asking students to dance and intentionally focusing on "singles." So I didn't usually ask her to dance, since I had my LW to dance with. Anytime I was there alone, however, I wouldn't hesitate to ask her, especially if I caught her at at moment when she didn't appear "busy."

So I agree with the others here -- go ahead and ask her to dance at least once per social.

-IJ

[chandra]

*disclaimer* Im a westie through and through. Dont know anything about Ballroom. I would assume the politics are similar, but this is all from a westie perspective. */disclaimer*

I think its always fine to ask pros to dance, as long as one has some etticut about doing it. If you are aware of and sensitive to all the things you just listed, you are probably fine, and dont run the danger at all of being labeled a "pro hog".
My opinion is be considerate and sensitive to all of those things you mentioned but ask by all means! Doing that means you have the least likely hood of being turned down.


http://www.strictlywestie.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=751
is a great thread on a different forum where a bunch of WCS pros talk about how to tell when its a good time to ask them to dance. You have to sign up for the forum to read the thread tho, so Ill quote one of the jems.
Tessa Cunnigham, well known WCS pro talks about being asked to dance:

I seem to be a victim of the "fear factor" - many people tell me that they or their friends are too intimidated to dance with me.

One reason is they think that I'm going to dance with them the exact same way I dance with other Pros. They think I'm going to pull out tricks and crazy stuff and they aren't going to be able to "handle" me. NOT TRUE. I always adjust my dance to the connection of my partner. Notice I didn't say "level" of my partner. To me, I could care less if a guy is pre-novice or all-star: if he has a great connection, I can play more because he can handle it. If he has a poor connection, I will play less.

Another reason is I get lumped into the same category as some other pros who "only like dancing with their own", which is not true for me. I LOVE dancing with beginner dancers. Beginner dancers are the reason I am who I am. Dancing with beginners for me is *******ing because they don't try so hard to overlead ridiculous patterns. I have time to think and chill and express myself. They also don't get pissed off like some intermediate dancers when something they tried didn't work because they think I didn't follow it properly (gag!). I'll take a modest novice with great connection over a sloppy overbearing all-star anyday.

I love dancing with my friends. But if there are 1000 people at a convention, 500 of them are leaders. I am usually out dancing ALL NIGHT. I don't like hiding in the bar or in my room. I'm there to social dance. That means there are potentially enough songs throughout the weekend to get through half of the leaders in attendance. But many nights, I will dance with the same people 2 and 3 times in a night. It's not by choice, though - it's because I really want to dance and no one else is asking. And, just in case you are thinking it, sometimes I DO ask guys I've never met.

Now, all that said, I do have one caveat about when/how NOT to ask:
This has happened to me twice now, and each time I was appalled:
I was standing or sitting talking to someone, and a guy I'd never met approached me while I was talking and grabbed my hand and started pulling towards the floor. As he pulled, he asked, "You said you dance with beginners, right?"
I was fuming. It took all of my effort not to slap his hand away and walk off the floor. The common courtesy that everyone else in the dance world gets, but seems to have escaped these two guys, is: When you ask someone to dance, you ASK, with words, and await their reply. You can add a gesture or offer a hand, but you DON'T GRAB AND HAUL like a caveman and then try to lay a pre-emptive guilt trip on them to prevent them from declining.

So, bottom line is:
A great time to ask is Sunday, when everyone's more relaxed.
A great time to ask is right after you've just had an awesome dance with a trusted friend, so your confidence is high.
A great time to ask is when they are walking out to the floor with someone else - ask if you can have the next song.
Be respectful of WHEN and HOW you ask pros to dance, but don't be afraid to ask. We're all human.

[etp777]

I know you didn't write that yourself Chandra, but thanks for posting it, great post. :)

Now we have no excuse to cover our shyness, sadly. ;)

[Josh]

mq, I'll wear this ... :bandit:

hehehe... ;-)

[wooh]

Hey Josh...I just looked at your website. Not sure if it's new or not, but it looks great. I'm just sitting here thinking you will be attracting all the girls in Atlanta and trying to figure out how to keep them from falling in love with you! ;)

He is a hottie isn't he? And a gentleman as well. If I wasn't already married to the only guy in Atlanta that's cuter and sweeter, I'd be one of those girls falling in love with him:D

[etp777]

Josh, that sounds like a challenge to prove yourself either cuter or sweeter (your choice), than wooh's husband. :cool:

[mamboqueen]

He is a hottie isn't he? And a gentleman as well. If I wasn't already married to the only guy in Atlanta that's cuter and sweeter, I'd be one of those girls falling in love with him:D

And likewise, if I were in that situation, we'd have to draw guns at sunrise ;).

And Josh, no need to hide those good looks...you'll still have 'em swooning with your incredible charm.

[Angel HI]

Good post by Josh.

tenehill, welcome to DF!

My former studio had required weekly parties, and my current one (though I'm independent) has monthly optional parties. I'll say that one of the goals of teachers is to get newer students interested in dancing, AND sometimes it can feel like work. BUT, I would venture to say that the vast majority of instructors love what they do enough that it's still fun anyway. I've always loved social dances and I just keep it laid back and have fun and dance! I'm sure the person you're referring to will have a similar attitude, and if she doesn't, then at least you've tried by asking her!

Bottom line: ask her to dance!

[cornutt]

Ahem... I try not to take up too much of my instructor's time on Friday nights, but for different reasons. As one of the more advanced dancers at our studio, I know that she needs to take care of her new students, just like she took care of me when I was a new student. Our studio is a bit unusual in that we generally have more men then women, and we've got a number of male dancers with no regular partners, so all of the female instructors stay busy. And I am aware that she spends a lot of time observing her students on Friday night and noting things that they need to work on, so I don't want to take her attention away from that for too long. Plus, since she is a co-owner, she often has running-the-business stuff to be done during the social.

But I do try to get her for one dance each week. I enjoy dancing with her, and I think it's kind of a relief for her to be able to get out of "instructor mode" and just dance for a few minutes.

[danceronice]

I love it when I get to dance with my pros at studio socials, even though it doesn't happen often (they're normally busy.) I also like getting to dance with the pros I don't take lessons from, as socials are usually my only chance for that! And if it's really a light night, I'll ask them if they don't ask me, and so far, I haven't been turned down. I'm not sure any of them are ever really entirely out of 'instructor mode', especially with me (I tend to start overthinking when I'm dancing with them as I know they know what I'm doing wrong) but it's always fun.

[etp777]

Dancing with pros who you don't take lessons with can definitely be a lot of fun. Have on ein particular that I enjoy dancing with at my home studio (and of course sevearl at other studio, but every pro there counts as someone I don't dance with). We always have a ton of fun dancing, and talking too, as we have several mutual friends due to me knowing people at another studio she used to work at. I think she enjoys it too as she always purposely tracks me down at least once or twice at every party, and complains if we don't get to dance. :)

[I'm Still Dancing]

I'm totally absorbing everything in this thread and I'm sorry to take this off-topic, but I have to ask:

. If I'm tired and need to sit one out it's easy enough to make myself busy in the kitchen *******ing snacks, to go check on the music, or do any of a number of tasks that drop me from people's visibility.


Suburbaknght, what exactly were you doing to the snacks in the kitchen?

:spam:

[etp777]

lol, I'd guess he was ref*r*eshing the snacks, but board cnesors that word due to issues it can cause with the code. :)

[Larinda McRaven]

yup

[I'm Still Dancing]

Aha! Thanks for the clarification.

[biggestbox]

A woman is a woman (ok girls I know I'm going to get some comments). Does she have her dance shoes on? i think that is enough to tell if she wants to dance.

[Larinda McRaven]

Speaking as the only female pro here at DF to chime in....

Well the question is not about asking women to dance... it is about asking women Teachers to dance. And the distinction does have different implications. I have on dance shoes because they are my required uniform at work. Not because I am jumping up and down at the chace to dance for 3 hours straight.

Generally speaking there are more women than men. At the very first studio I worked for eons ago, I was told NOT to dance at the socials, since it meant that every time I was dancing some lady student was sitting. Also I was told that a cute little blonde thing getting attention meant that the older women sitting out would be extra jealous of the attention I would get from the far too few men.

Women teachers are mostly expected to dance a few times and then be hostesses. Attending to the stationary patrons, put tp in the bathrooms, stock the ice and chips, relay messages to the male staff that are busy, answer questions, book lessons, make nice nice with the women so they don't feel in competition with me... anything but dance with the men who are in short supply. (Cornutts studio is quite different, the roles become reversed there)

I like social dancing. I like social dancing with people of all levels. I do NOT like being expected to dance just because I am a teacher. My job is not to taxi people around the floor. My job is to teach you how to dance with anyone... not just me.


"pro hog" *snort*

[rjcbear]

I do NOT like being expected to dance just because I am a teacher. My job is not to taxi people around the floor. My job is to teach you how to dance with anyone... not just me.

Ok let me borrow Larinda's words cute little blonde thing said it best.

[wooh]

Generally speaking there are more women than men. At the very first studio I worked for eons ago, I was told NOT to dance at the socials, since it meant that every time I was dancing some lady student was sitting. Also I was told that a cute little blonde thing getting attention meant that the older women sitting out would be extra jealous of the attention I would get from the far too few men.


I can only imagine. Women get pissed if an instructor dances with me because I brought my own partner and am thus "taken care of."
I've even seen women get pissed when my husband (and these are women that know he's my husband) dances with me too much.
Of course, I would probably be upset if he were dancing with a cute little blonde thing a little too much! But I imagine it would be ok if it were Larinda. (Or my cute little blonde thing of an instructor.)

[etp777]

1. I want to meet wooh's instructor. ;)

2. I think Larinda makes a good point, and one I haven't really considered. I do try to limit how much i dance with pros (I will generally ask my pro once durin gthe night, and then any other times I wait for pros to ask me, pretty much same at other studios I visit too). It is a little different at my home studio, in that the female pros aren't expected to act as hostesses, but they ARE expected to dance as a lead, as we generally do have more women there than men. So either way, they're still not there to dance with me.

It sure seems that something I thought was a really simple question has a lot more facets than i had orginally guessed.

[Larinda McRaven]

It is a little different at my home studio, in that the female pros aren't expected to act as hostesses, but they ARE expected to dance as a lead, as we generally do have more women there than men.

Yes, a lot of studios expect the women to lead to make up for the imbalance.

Another thing to keep in mind!!!!! A LOT of studios DO NOT pay the instructors to be at the dance!!! We are simply expected to be there and work. (At my studio I am not getting paid, but it is my studio and my dance. oh well) But when you are employeed and the owner tells you to be there if you want to be a good little employee and get bonuses... then the feeling of being taken advantage of often turns teachers off of the whole idea of social dancing. Not only do you feel blackmailed to be at the dance, but then the pro hogs come out and make you feel even cheaper! I have seen INNUMERABLE amount of male pros slowly turn to hate the dances because the emotional guilt trips and feelings of being used are just too much.

If you don't feel like spending a Friday night at the studio you go out somewhere else or stay home. If we don't feel like spending a Friday night at the studio we still have to be there (even without pay!) I am not saying that Teachers can sulk and be morose, we will still be professional and wear a smile. But please don't feel we HAVE to dance with you because you paid to get in or bought lessons last week. I will dance with you because a) I like dancing with you, b) I recognize it is a good business practice. But never because I OWE it to you.

Again don't think I am a snob, I love to dance and rarely turn someone down. But I certainly will if someone makes me feel cheap and obligatory about it.

[etp777]

I don't think anyone finds you being a snob at this. I don't think a lot of us knew that. Thinking back to offhand comments I've heard, pretty sure at least one of studios I know pros at doesn't pay them to be there (though believe mine does, again, due to offhand comments). But that certainly adds yet another part to it.

[Larinda McRaven]

Thanks, I sometimes feel like I should not say anything because I don't want to come off as negative sounding or argumentative. But someone really needs to offer the flip side of an argument... simply because most people never see the behind the scenes workings or a teacher/pros life. It is fun, but not always as shiney as most people assume.

Studios that DO pay the instructors to be there generally only pay minimum wage or some rounded off equivalent. So for three hours work maybe they get 20 bucks. Barely anything more than most dancers pay to get in.

[etp777]

Oh yeah, wasn't claiming they make mcuh out of it. :) Having lots of friends who are pros, have gotten to see the wide range of pays that you can make, even working at the same studio. From people who don't make much more than I made working in mailroom (basic no skills job), to at least two pros that make more than I do as a Senior Systems Administrator in Information Technology back home. And that doesn't even count owners/managers, etc. Of course, those who do make more than me a large portion of that is extras (bonuses for being on or above quota, top teacher awards at comps, etc), but that's still part of their pay for doing their job. Of course, tyhat limits how many pros can get the extras.

[LucyDiamond]

Let me jump in here and say I really appreciate your comments Larinda and have never thought you were being negative sounding or argumentative. Your input is always ref r e s h ing and insightful. I always look forward to reading your posts.

[nucat78]

I can only imagine. Women get pissed if an instructor dances with me because I brought my own partner and am thus "taken care of."
I've even seen women get pissed when my husband (and these are women that know he's my husband) dances with me too much.
Of course, I would probably be upset if he were dancing with a cute little blonde thing a little too much! But I imagine it would be ok if it were Larinda. (Or my cute little blonde thing of an instructor.)

Wow. Thankfully, these behaviors are totally outside my experience. Seriously. At the indy studio I go to, everybody pretty much dances with everybody else. Maybe there's minimal jealousy because everybody does rotate (a lot), even the cute little blonde instructor.

[cornutt]

But when you are employeed and the owner tells you to be there if you want to be a good little employee and get bonuses... then the feeling of being taken advantage of often turns teachers off of the whole idea of social dancing.

Yes, and the nasty thing is, a lot of the dancers who attend a Friday night social are not aware of this economic reality. They also aren't aware of how many students a typical instructor will be carrying at any given time -- many new students seem to be under the impression that they are their instructor's only student, or one of just a few. Put those two things together, and you have a huge disconnect between what the student may be expecting, and what the instructor is able to provide.

[Josh]

Another thing to keep in mind!!!!! A LOT of studios DO NOT pay the instructors to be at the dance!!! We are simply expected to be there and work. (At my studio I am not getting paid, but it is my studio and my dance. oh well) But when you are employeed and the owner tells you to be there if you want to be a good little employee and get bonuses... then the feeling of being taken advantage of often turns teachers off of the whole idea of social dancing.

I have felt this way a little before, but I've always been paid, maybe not a whole lot, but still paid. IMHO, if the party is required and it is without pay, then I'm going to be looking for somewhere else to work--being a team player is one thing, but free work is another, and I know of horrible stories like this from many who have come from a particular studio. If the party is optional, then it's in my best interests for business to be there. Bonuses? My bonus is getting new students--forget the "good little employee" thing... if someone wants me to be a "good little employee" then they will pay me a "good little wage." I gladly show up at my current parties because there's no pressure to do so, everybody has a good time, I can potentially get business out of it, and I love to dance!

[wooh]

But Josh, everybody may be having a good time, but we're having a better time across the street.:p You should come across to get you some business.:D

[Josh]

But Josh, everybody may be having a good time, but we're having a better time across the street.:p You should come across to get you some business.:D

oooh, Darth Wooh appears :twisted: hehe

lol I'm sure you are have a great time too wooh--actually though, I'm teaching at your studio as a guest instructor at the Feb 2 party, so if you're going to be there for that I'll see you then!

[wooh]

oooh, Darth Wooh appears :twisted: hehe

lol I'm sure you are have a great time too wooh--actually though, I'm teaching at your studio as a guest instructor at the Feb 2 party, so if you're going to be there for that I'll see you then!

Well you enjoy January over on the dark side. Because after Feb, you won't want to go back. All the cool kids ARE on my side of the street!:cool:

[Josh]

Well you enjoy January over on the dark side. Because after Feb, you won't want to go back. All the cool kids ARE on my side of the street!:cool:

lol you are too funny!:cheers: