Visiting Coaches: Maximizing the Benefit

[pygmalion]

Most good ballroom studios out there will periodically invite high level coaches in to work with their teachers and students. In the past, when I've had the chance to work with these coaches, the approach has been pretty haphazard, to be honest. I booked the coaching sessions, and when I got there, I told the teacher and the coach what I wanted to work on, and we did. Some sessions, I worked on a specific technique, some on new patterns, some on choreography ideas. I'm still not sure which sessions were beneficial and which were not.

Does any of you have tips or pointers for how to get the most out of those periodic visits from high level coaches. And is it different if there's a one-time only coaching session versus a series of periodic sessions, spread over months or years?

Thoughts?

[Adwiz]

Good question! I think that you will get the most out of your session with a visiting coach if you train with him or her on the qualities that you admire in them.

For example, if I were to get a session with Misa Cigoy (I actually had that opportunity a few weeks ago but couldn't attend), I would get him to show me examples of how he connects with the audience, because I feel that is what he does better than any other dancer. With Maria Manusova I would get a lesson on Rumba expression because I feel that is what she does best. With Brian Watson and/or Carmen I would get them to focus entirely on connection and timing because I think they do this better than anyone else. I would take all the available time I had with each coach on that one thing that sets them apart. In my view, if you do this you will always feel great about every experience.

[Larinda McRaven]

If you are unfamiliar with the coach then simply ask your teacher what "they" would be working on with the coach if "they" were having the lesson.

[chachagirlie]

One way to get more out of a visiting coach is to book 2 sessions with them spaced at least a couple hours apart. That way you can get coaching on what you are focusing, practice it and then have an immediate follow-up coaching for reinforcement and correction.

[Chris Stratton]

I try to start making a list of questions long in advance, then select the most interesting or fundamental ones to ask during the lesson. Then I record my experiences over the few days after each lesson. If you know the visitor will be back eventually that can be even better, as then the whole notes->experimentation->questions process can become circular.

I also think that the more you know about the visitor, the more you can learn from them. Many will give you whatever sort of lesson you like, but depending on what you ask for that may not mean you get the most out of it that you could. For example, I'd probably avoid asking a visiting coach to evaluate whole dance(s) - when you bring in that much of "you" it limits how much of "them" can be brought up in the lesson. Instead, I'd rather pick a topic (perhaps influenced by what I know to be unique about them) and then find out as much of what they teach about that topic as I can take in during the hour. If I can actually do some of it during the lesson that's great, but mostly I'm looking for information that will guide my work over the next several months, or to clear up areas where what I'm hearing locally doesn't seem quite complete. Because my local coach, my friends, and the visitors I tend to schedule with are closely aligned, I can usually get followup help with things that made it into my notebook, but not my muscles or understanding.

[standardgirl]

URGENT!!

I am having a coaching session with the Hilliers tomorrow. Any suggestions on what to work on?
V Waltz is my best standard, and foxtrot is the worst. I know the most steps in Waltz. What should we work on? My partner is not going, so it's just me and the coach.
thanks

[Chris Stratton]

Are you working with Stephen or Jennifer?

[standardgirl]

Are you working with Stephen or Jennifer?

Stephen

[Chris Stratton]

Chances are that even without asking a question about it, he will show you quite a bit that is new and potentially very different in terms of connection, both in specifics and in general feel. Certainly you will want to experience how that works in both some basic waltz and especially foxtrot. The problem though is that without your partner present, you may not be able to adopt those methods unless there is someone local who is ready to re-teach them. I'd eventually suggest that your partner ask about how to do CBM for something like a natural turn because there are some very interesting details there, but it's not going to be something you can relay to him in a way that he can apply, so I don't know... perhaps just let Stephen decide what to give you that is more general, and not as dependent on your partner?

If there's any way you could get your partner there, that would really be an excellent long term investment in the partnership - not as fun as just dancing with Stephen, but if you both get to hear his ideas that drastically increases the chances of being able to actually adopt some of them. If you do manage to bring your partner, I'd probably spend most of the time trying to learn Stephen's method of connection/posture/frame/movement, as of the various things he teaches that are not widespread knowledge, that's probably the one which would make the most immediate difference in the ease and quality of dancing at a basic level. One further area in which you might expand that would be to ask about the same subjects in promenade position. I'd probably keep the number of dances small, and in order to get general information stick with the ones that have a lot of common generally applicable ideas like waltz and foxtrot. You could get into tango if you have time, but since it's self contained you could also save it for next time.

In the end, the real benefit of the lesson will come only if your regular coaching can reinforce the ideas and methods you are given, but allowance must be made for the fact that not everyone will agree with them. While there's a lot to be said for respecting and going to hear coaches with different views, successful coaches got that way by having methods that work to enable their goals. Most of the value is not in going to listen or briefly experience, but in actually applying the detailed advice to achieve some of the goals. In partner dancing you both need to hear the details and work on them together.

[standardgirl]

thanks a lot Chris. My pro partner is out of town this week, so there is no way to get him there. As for my am partner, he would not pay for the coaching, plus, I am dancing a lot better than him.....
My regular teacher/ my pro partner takes coachings with the Hilliers, too. I think this will help to reinforce?

[Chris Stratton]

thanks a lot Chris. My pro partner is out of town this week, so there is no way to get him there. As for my am partner, he would not pay for the coaching, plus, I am dancing a lot better than him.....

Bring him anyway, unless you want to keep dancing a lot better than him.

[swan]

thanks a lot Chris. My pro partner is out of town this week, so there is no way to get him there. As for my am partner, he would not pay for the coaching, plus, I am dancing a lot better than him.....

Bring him anyway, unless you want to keep dancing a lot better than him.
I agree...Your partner should go & at least observe.

It's a dilemma. You want to advance your own dancing no matter what. But your partner is either not motivated or too poor to take the coaching with you. My personal opinion, your partner really needs to be there. Even not in the lesson, but still need to hear the info first hand.

I also understand that it is a bad deal that if you have to pay for the coaching and all Stephen is going to do is to fix your partner, as they always fix the guys first! Even I pay for half, most guest coaches will always go for fixing the man! As if the man doesn't dance well, the lady can only help so much (we can encourage the positive dancing for our partners, but a lot of things the men need to learn to 'feed'...)

Perhaps if you make your partner pay for a little bit & you pay the rest & see it as 'investment'. After all, if he improves, you're much better off. Otherwise, you improve, and then your partner 'undoes' your learning, wouldn't that be a waste of your money anyway?

On a different note, I'm excited that I'll be taking coaching lessons (w/ my partner of course) with Lindsey Tate (Stephen's ex :)) at end of Feb!

[Chris Stratton]

On a different note, I'm excited that I'll be taking coaching lessons (w/ my partner of course) with Lindsey Tate (Stephen's ex :)) at end of Feb!

Where?

[Laura]

thanks a lot Chris. My pro partner is out of town this week, so there is no way to get him there. As for my am partner, he would not pay for the coaching, plus, I am dancing a lot better than him.....

Bring him anyway, unless you want to keep dancing a lot better than him.

I agree. And if your partner can't/won't pay, then pay for the whole thing (you were going to anyway) and consider it an investment in the partnership. My partner and I have a deal: the four or six times a year that we take lessons from a visiting super-top coach I pay. Why? Because I really want the lessons and I can afford to pay for them four or so times per year. It's not often enough that he feels beholden to me about it, but it's still enough to give us a big "bump" in our understanding of dancing. Even if the coach spends 90% of the time on my partner, it doesn't matter to me because what each of us does affects ethe other, so him improving will help me to improve and vice versa.

[Laura]

On a different note, I'm excited that I'll be taking coaching lessons (w/ my partner of course) with Lindsey Tate (Stephen's ex :)) at end of Feb!

Where?

In Asia!

[swan]

On a different note, I'm excited that I'll be taking coaching lessons (w/ my partner of course) with Lindsey Tate (Stephen's ex :)) at end of Feb!

Where?

In Asia!

In case DF folks haven't figured out, my thousand of miles away partner is in Asia :) So where else would we take coaching? But we've been fortunate. We had lessons w/ Victor Fung when he visited China. This time we'd take w/ Lindsey in Singapore. We usually tried to coincide a comp w/ coaching lessons. We don't have a coach right now (never did), as the town he lives in is so remote from any good pros. We really had to rely on my camcorder & my good friends in the US to help critique the tape & improve our dancing in each trip. I'd upload the clips to my website after a practice. Then my dance friends in the US will send back the comments, and thanks to the time zone difference, most of the time, I could use the info in the next day practice.

That's the main reason I asked my best dance friend Laura from DF to come help us in January! She did a FABULOUS job!

[Laura]

I guess I'm going to have to tell that story at some point....

It was strange, swan's partner dances at a much much higher technical level than I do but I was still able to help. I focussed on their mental and emotional state rather than the dance technique. Like, I watched what they were doing, and then asked him why he chose to dance certain figures, what his overall aim was, what his thoughts were about the dance, what his feelings were. As we talked about these things I would point out areas where the physical expression of his dancing didn't match up to the picture he said he was trying to create or to the emotions he said he wanted to express in that dance. I would watch swan and see where she was blocking his expression, or could add more of her own to things. I spent basically four days thinking about nothing but dancing -- but it was all in a rather non-technical sense. We talked a lot about how energy flows between the partners and then out into the world, and other rather esoteric topics. It was an inspiring experience for me, because it showed me where the art can come from in this sport. I'm trying to keep the things I discovered from being with them in my mind now that I'm home again and working with my own partner. In fact, I have to leave in a bit to go practice with him and then take a lesson, and I'm really really looking forward to it!

So anyway, I will write up a trip report and post it over in the Travel Forums, and will let you know when it's there. As I mentioned over there, it's a curious tale involving power shopping, ballroom dancing, fine art, and getting blind drunk on sorghum whiskey :)

[standardgirl]

Came back from coaching....my partner was appearantl "too busy" with school, and didn't want to go.......yeah I know, I skipped classes to go to the evening group lessons with them, he didn't go either......whatever, I will improve my dance skills, and then I will feel much better with my pro partner......

okay, it was GREAT! He is so good that for the first time ever, I felt so much more balanced, and dancing with my own feet instead of my partner's body. then the exercises he gave me were really good. At the end of the session, I started to get the feeling of using my feet. The "rolling your feet" kind of feeling. Can't wait till my next private. I just want to see if he (my pro partner) discovered anything different!

[swan]

Came back from coaching....my partner was appearantl "too busy" with school, and didn't want to go.......yeah I know, I skipped classes to go to the evening group lessons with them, he didn't go either......whatever, I will improve my dance skills, and then I will feel much better with my pro partner......

okay, it was GREAT! He is so good that for the first time ever, I felt so much more balanced, and dancing with my own feet instead of my partner's body. then the exercises he gave me were really good. At the end of the session, I started to get the feeling of using my feet. The "rolling your feet" kind of feeling. Can't wait till my nex private. I just want to see if he discovered anything different!

That is the beauty of working with a good pro as single...He/she will put you in the right place, feed you the right feelings so that you can be 'programmed' & learn to dance the right way. Wish your partner was there w/ you though. He really should not have skipped such wonderful opportunity to work with a world class pro!

[Chris Stratton]

okay, it was GREAT! He is so good that for the first time ever, I felt so much more balanced, and dancing with my own feet instead of my partner's body. then the exercises he gave me were really good. At the end of the session, I started to get the feeling of using my feet. The "rolling your feet" kind of feeling. Can't wait till my next private. I just want to see if he (my pro partner) discovered anything different!

Hopefully you will find support for incorporating this into your everyday dancing. But if not, remember that it's still there as an option to be rediscovered in the future.

There's an over-riding impression of this school of dancing which I struggle to put into words. The technical methods are not just about creating free movement, there is something from the social history of partner dancing retained or even restored here. Here is a school of dance - primarily for performance purposes - but with a philosophy that places overwhelming dignity foremost.

[DancePoet]

It was strange, swan's partner dances at a much much higher technical level than I do but I was still able to help. I focussed on their mental and emotional state rather than the dance technique. Like, I watched what they were doing, and then asked him why he chose to dance certain figures, what his overall aim was, what his thoughts were about the dance, what his feelings were. As we talked about these things I would point out areas where the physical expression of his dancing didn't match up to the picture he said he was trying to create or to the emotions he said he wanted to express in that dance. I would watch swan and see where she was blocking his expression, or could add more of her own to things. I spent basically four days thinking about nothing but dancing -- but it was all in a rather non-technical sense. We talked a lot about how energy flows between the partners and then out into the world, and other rather esoteric topics. It was an inspiring experience for me, because it showed me where the art can come from in this sport. I'm trying to keep the things I discovered from being with them in my mind now that I'm home again and working with my own partner. In fact, I have to leave in a bit to go practice with him and then take a lesson, and I'm really really looking forward to it!
Thanks for sharing Laura ... this has caused me to start a new thread called "Learning Expression For Dance".

[DancePoet]

okay, it was GREAT! He is so good that for the first time ever, I felt so much more balanced, and dancing with my own feet instead of my partner's body. then the exercises he gave me were really good. At the end of the session, I started to get the feeling of using my feet. The "rolling your feet" kind of feeling. Can't wait till my next private. I just want to see if he (my pro partner) discovered anything different!
It is unfortunate your partner couldn't be part of this.

There's an over-riding impression of this school of dancing which I struggle to put into words. The technical methods are not just about creating free movement, there is something from the social history of partner dancing retained or even restored here. Here is a school of dance - primarily for performance purposes - but with a philosophy that places overwhelming dignity foremost.
I realize you said this was difficult to put into words, but can you describe what you mean by the last sentence?

[Chris Stratton]

No, I'm sorry but I really can't explain it much better. I could start unending arguments about the component technical details, but while those are moderately necessary to achieving the overall result, my point is that it's much more than a sum of actions. You really have to see it for yourself (which might be possible if you can get to Boston this weekend.)

[DancePoet]

Nope, unfortunately probably not. I'm doing a comp on Saturday.

And the rest of the weekend is tied up too. :(

I agree that sometimes seeing is much better. :D

[standardgirl]

Follow up.....

so, after the coaching sessino yesterday, I got all excited, and just can't wait to dance with my pro partner, and I did today! It went great! The nice part is that he had no clue about the coaching. So we dance, then he's like, you really suprised my with the waltz today, blah, blah, blah, and we did foxtrot, which I have also worked on it yesterday. then, he's like it's getting a lot better. You are dancing like 3 levels higher! :D I try to not laugh, but it's hard. We ended with a quickstep, which I didn't even work on at the coaching session yesterday, but still, with the better posture, and balancing techniques, even the quickstep feels much better, and I am able to follow better, too with a better connection. It's just AMAZING. and I didn't realize how amazing it is until just this afternoon. Then at the end of our session, I asked him, if he feels my dancing improving. He told me it's just one of my better day (I mean, once in a while, I do get a so called better day). Then I told him the truth...... :D I had so much fun on the floor today. I feel like I am flying in quickstep, and my PP in waltz is so balanced for the first time! We have always had problem with PP before!

[swan]

That's great news, chiwenl!!!! Keep up the good work. Hopefully you can help your Amateur partner as well.

[Joe]

Actually, she should probably temper her expectations for when she dances with her Am boy again...

[Laura]

After reading the report, all I can say is the am guy is doubly lame for not going....

[standardgirl]

All I am hoping now is that I hope my am partner won't take away my great feeling, and what I just learned......It's so easy for him to undo everything I learned, since those stuff are really fresh and new.....We'll see what's going on on Sunday.

[Chris Stratton]

You probably need to do three things:

1) Record what you can about the current feeling - you want to be able to get back to it eventually no matter what happens in the short term

2) Try to do what you can to keep things in your own dancing, but not in a way that intereferes with the partnership - this will be the hardest

3) Try to find some coaching that can show some of these ideas to your partner. You can talk about what you learned, but at this point you won't be able to really teach it to him.

[swan]

All I am hoping now is that I hope my am partner won't take away my great feeling, and what I just learned......It's so easy for him to undo everything I learned, since those stuff are really fresh and new.....We'll see what's going on on Sunday.

That's why we in DF kept saying "bring your partner, even offer to pay for him"...Because it's pretty much guarantee that he WILL undo some, if not all, what you've learned...

My honest opinion is that if you decide to take on an amateur partnership, you pretty much have to grow with your partner. Yes, sometimes single lessons are still encouraged if there're things you really feel you need to work on. However, that also will have the potential of creating (or furthering) a gap between the partnership and can cause quite a bit of conflict & trouble.

[Chris Stratton]

Yes, one of the hardest things for a partnership is when one person has a lot of experience and knowledge (and hence needs) in some areas where the other person has less (or worse) conflicting training.

Somtimes I feel like I've been more succesful at passing along things learned in high-level coaching to third parties than I am at communicating them to a partner.

[cantdance]

So, Victor and Anna will be offering coaching at MIT this year. Who would you take with, and what would you want to work on with them??

[dTas]

Does any of you have tips or pointers for how to get the most out of those periodic visits from high level coaches. And is it different if there's a one-time only coaching session versus a series of periodic sessions, spread over months or years?

Thoughts?

VIDEO!!

and of course have a specific agenda that you want to accomplish. choreography, conneciton, technique, flair, etc. know your coach, what specialty is the coach known for and be sure that your most burning question is answered!

oh and of course... VIDEO!!

[standardgirl]

So, Victor and Anna will be offering coaching at MIT this year. Who would you take with, and what would you want to work on with them??

Only wish that I could go...still debating, basically, I could go, but only on Sunday, and Monday. ie, little competiton (but I would have to miss intl standard, my strongest, on Sat), no Sat shoe, just coaching....
Okay, if I do go, I would take a lesson from each of them, especially Anna. Since I do think that it is more beneficial to take coaching/lesson with someone of your sex. But this also depends on what you want to work on though....

[Joe]

For solo lessons, I believe in the opposite.

[swan]

So, Victor and Anna will be offering coaching at MIT this year. Who would you take with, and what would you want to work on with them??

Both are good. I've taken from both. Victor coached me & my partner. I worked w/ Anna as single. I think Victor is more experienced and can really fix a lot of the things for the guys - which can make us the ladies a lot easier :) Victor's a very efficient & effective teacher - meaning he can teach a lot of stuff in a short amount of time.

Both of them are extremely nice people as well. Very nice to work with. I highly recommend them.

[Katarzyna]

We are planning to take a lesson or two from Victor. We've seen him teach at the Holliday Ball (lectures), and believe that he will be able to help me and my partner quite a bit (did I mention that we are pretending to be Victor and Anna...we need to learn their magic) :wink: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Kitty]

did I mention that we are pretending to be Victor and Anna...we need to learn their magic

:lol: :lol: :lol:
you look very convincing

[standardgirl]

Finally, I am going to have two coaching sessions with Victor! Woohoo!
So happy, since I had to miss the time when they were at MIT.

Anything suggestions? Anything specific dances that we should work on? or anything else?

[swan]

Finally, I am going to have two coaching sessions with Victor! Woohoo!
So happy, since I had to miss the time when they were at MIT.

Anything suggestions? Anything specific dances that we should work on? or anything else?

Definitely work on Tango...Victor is very good at it.

[LXC]

Anyone has taken from Victor Veyrasset and Healther Smith? Would love to hear some feedback. Thanks

Here's the situation. We just booked air and hotel for a vegas trip and all of a sudden realized that it happen to overlap with DanceVision's dance camp and Victor/Heather will be teaching there. Two questions. First, are they worth our vacation time? Second, which one of them would you recommend? Thanks

[standardgirl]

Definitely work on Tango...Victor is very good at it.

Thank you, Swan. I will make sure we spend some time on Tango. :D

[cl5814]

Anyone has taken from Victor Veyrasset and Healther Smith? Would love to hear some feedback. Thanks

Here's the situation. We just booked air and hotel for a vegas trip and all of a sudden realized that it happen to overlap with DanceVision's dance camp and Victor/Heather will be teaching there. Two questions. First, are they worth our vacation time? Second, which one of them would you recommend? Thanks

From what i can remember about last year's camp, Heather likes to work on plain, old basic technique. She did the ladies technique class early in the morning at camp and that got her excited.

HTH

[Chris Stratton]

I hope no one is getting confused between Victor Fung (with the Beethoven 5 tango show recently at MIT) and Victor Veyrasset.

[standardgirl]

I hope no one is getting confused between Victor Fung (with the Beethoven 5 tango show recently at MIT) and Victor Veyrasset.

That could be confusing when people don't use their last names, but I guess those two people are fine, since they are often known by both their first names and last names. :D

Hey, Chris, any suggestion for my coaching sessions with Victor Fung? :D