DVIDA manual content?

[nucat78]

Do DVIDA manuals have step diagrams in them? I mean little footprints with numbers, not a table of check-off boxes with figures listed. Or is that too basic? I can't tell from the DVIDA site what the format is of the manuals.

I ask because while I have a number of videos, it helps me to diagram things out. A manual that says "Do a broken left turn" isn't going to be of much help if I don't know where to put my feet for a broken left turn. :doh:

Thanks!

[Josh]

nope, none that I know of do. Alex Moore's "Ballroom Dancing" does, but seriously, it won't help much. The translation from diagram to dancing will just not work without a person coaching you...

[DancerForLife]

Two manuals are next to me... no diagrams, just lots of words. They are detailed words....

[jwlinson]

Having the advice of a coach is absolutely necessary to help you interpret all the information in the manuals. The step diagrams you request may help you learn the steps themselves, but the technique described in the manuals is essential, and a qualified coach will help you with that.

On a similar note, there's a couple in our area who decided they didn't need any formal instruction, and could instead learn everything they needed via DVD. They do know steps, but all they know is steps. They have no technique to speak of. Of course, the DVDs they watch do provide advice on technique, but they apparently feel they don't need it.

It's quite obvious they aren't paying attention to that...

We also use DVDs, but only as a supplement to our formal training. Think of the manuals, DVDs, etc. as study guides, and not replacements.

[etp777]

Yep. I planned on stealin gthe dvd's as a study guide/reminder. I was told no. :( ;)

[waltzgirl]

A manual that says "Do a broken left turn" isn't going to be of much help if I don't know where to put my feet for a broken left turn. :doh:



The DVIDA manuals don't say "do a broken left turn." They have charts for each pattern that tell you, for each step of the pattern, things like orientation in the room, direction of step, footwork, if there is foot or body rise, timing, etc. It takes a bit of practice to interpret the info, but once you get the hang of it, the manuals can be very helpful in reviewing material you have already been introduced to.

To see a similar breakdown of steps, take a look at ballroomdancers.com in the Learn the Dances section.

[nucat78]

I didn't intend to use manuals or videos as a replacement for lessons but as an adjunct. I have my first private lesson scheduled for next Friday night and a group technique class next Saturday afternoon.

Right now I'm scribbling down notes as soon as I get home after group lessons, hopefully before the info drains out of my ears. Problem is that I still leave out a detail here and there.

[reb]

I didn't intend to use manuals or videos as a replacement for lessons but as an adjunct. I have my first private lesson scheduled for next Friday night and a group technique class next Saturday afternoon.

Right now I'm scribbling down notes as soon as I get home after group lessons, hopefully before the info drains out of my ears. Problem is that I still leave out a detail here and there.

One thing I learned from Toni Redpath as she sought to establish a common language with me was to use a system of documenting what I learned. For me, in Smooth, the important components initially were:

Timing
Footwork
Alignment
Boat/skier
Rotation
Positive side
Body contact
Sway
High jump
Head
Arm / handsAt first this was painfully hard and slow (and I looked like I needed a dunce cap), but later I could assimilate whole bodies of this information verbally without writing it down, but it did help train me to think of these elements. For me, smooth had the most elements to consider.

[waltzgirl]

Boat/skier?

I think I know what you mean, but maybe you could clarify?

[reb]

Boat/skier?

I think I know what you mean, but maybe you could clarify?

Oh boy . . .
Its really best to leave the real explaining to private lessons with the experts using face-to-face communication, diagrams, movement, etc., but I will give it an Amateurs attempt to try to put it somewhat in context.

Part of the difficulty in trying to explain too much right here is that its part of an integrated set of concepts (hence the near impossibility to learn technique soley from reading a book, words, diagrams, etc.).

It involves your weight connection and awareness of your center of gravity and your center of levitation (used to emphasize there's not just one singular point of vertical rotation as in a collapsed look, but two). Other integrated aspects are your motion - pendulum (typical of swing movement) or metronomic (which you might experience as you exit a telemark, etc.).

So, using that as a backdrop, to experience boat-and-skier . . . in a typical closed hold (probably easier to visualize from an extended [arms connected] closed hold) where the man is moving forward - he is the skier (providing steering) while the lady is the boat (providing power), whereas in the same relative position with the man moving backwards, the lady is the skier while the man is the boat. With these simple words, lots of questions come to mind - does that mean the skier is not providing power or steering? what about the man's responsibilities? etc. - these are all good questions and finer points which must be explored and analyzed.

In the end, the terminology involving boat-and-skier provides a method of communicating complex concepts - a common language.

[etp777]

I still don't think I understand it, but I do have an urge to go kneeboarding now. ;)

One reason I like having same guy as coach for pro and I, and who helped write curriculum, is exactly what reb said though, a standard terminology/langauge to describe things. Alway ssome variouation between the pros, as they try to make it understandable to various students (or to slow students lik eme ;) ), but the common language sure makes things easier.

[waltzgirl]

Oh boy . . .
Its really best to leave the real explaining to private lessons with the experts using face-to-face communication, diagrams, movement, etc., but I will give it an Amateurs attempt to try to put it somewhat in context.

Part of the difficulty in trying to explain too much right here is that its part of an integrated set of concepts (hence the near impossibility to learn technique soley from reading a book, words, diagrams, etc.).

It involves your weight connection and awareness of your center of gravity and your center of levitation (used to emphasize there's not just one singular point of vertical rotation as in a collapsed look, but two). Other integrated aspects are your motion - pendulum (typical of swing movement) or metronomic (which you might experience as you exit a telemark, etc.).

So, using that as a backdrop, to experience boat-and-skier . . . in a typical closed hold (probably easier to visualize from an extended [arms connected] closed hold) where the man is moving forward - he is the boat (providing power and steering) while the lady is the skier, whereas in the same relative position with the man moving backwards, the lady is the boat while the man is the skier. With these simple words, lots of questions come to mind - does that mean the skier is not providing power or steering? what about the man's responsibilities? etc. - these are all good questions and finer points which must be explored and analyzed.

In the end, the terminology involving boat-and-skier provides a method of communicating complex concepts - a common language.


That's what I thought you meant.

My pro takes lessons sometimes from Toni, so I'm familiar with the the two centers and pendulum/metronome motion. But I've never heard the boat/skier analogy.

I know it's complex, but I have been taught that the person going backwards supplies the power (so I imagined the boat/skier roles the opposite--the one going back would be the boat).

[reb]

That's what I thought you meant.

My pro takes lessons sometimes from Toni, so I'm familiar with the the two centers and pendulum/metronome motion. But I've never heard the boat/skier analogy.

I know it's complex, but I have been taught that the person going backwards supplies the power (so I imagined the boat/skier roles the opposite--the one going back would be the boat).
You're right - the one going backwards supplies the power - I typed incorrectly. It was a test, yeah, that's it, it was a test!

Its interesting because of the initiation, the follow (and follow-through), the collecting - all this is transmitted as a physical communciation which words try to represent.

[waltzgirl]

Probably a Freudian slip--male ego having a hard time with the idea that the woman supplies the power most of the time (just kidding ;) :D !)

[waltzgirl]

Toni Redpath--National Smooth Champion with husband Micheal Mead. 7 times! (IIRC).

They have a good DVD series on American Smooth technique (the overall one is the best bet for the money, the ones on specific dances repeat a lot of the info on the general one).

[etp777]

Yeah, was just finding some info on her online. Impressive. :) Seems to be someone worth looking into (pretty sure I saw her and partner on old America's Ballroom Challenge, least, picture of them from that looks familiar).

[reb]

Probably a Freudian slip--male ego having a hard time with the idea that the woman supplies the power most of the time (just kidding ;) :D !)
And I thought we were just lazy ;)

[reb]

And the great one himself (Michael Mead, of course!) witnessed my faux pas, so let's dispense with that one more time . . .

"except that the boat is the puller"

and then he proceeded to help shed a little more light on the subject with:

". . . [the boat is] whoever is furthest ahead in the direction of travel, and who is the most likely to go to the center of any turning action, whilst the skier trails the boat....it allows for the use of centripetal force in the dancing."

:notworth:

[waltzgirl]

Thank you, reb--and Michael!

[tangotime]

Oh boy . . .
Part of the difficulty in trying to explain too much right here is that its part of an integrated set of concepts

(hence the near impossibility to learn technique soley from reading a book, words, diagrams, etc.).

.




On the contrary-- it is very simple to learn the " technique "-- I believe you are confusing concepts ,with subject matter. herein lies the problem-- new teachers are generally very book oriented, but have little background in teaching concepts ( thats the part that takes yrs to develop ) .

I have examined numerous candidates for assoc. exams-- and most are word perfect ( techn. ) but know llittle beyond that, as far as the theoretical side of dance is concerned .

The "rev. tech." as an e.g. , is purely a guide to developing and understanding the subject matter from a technical aspect only.
Many yrs ago, A. Moore had pose a Q in his newsletter about this very subject---exams -- he and I exchanged letters on how it could be improved.

( he had realised that it was an imperfect system )

I suggested, that the only true test, would be to have the examiner there during the course of a lesson . He agreed 100 %-- the only major problem -- time consuming .( considering the need to cover 4 dances plus Qand A )

[waltzgirl]

You could have a practical teaching part of the test. The examiner could take the part of a student and have the examinee teach him a pattern or theoretical concept.

Or you do like hairstyling and dental schools do: recruit people to be exam students and charge them only a minimal fee. If it were cheap enough, I'd do it just out of curiosity!

[tangotime]

You could have a practical teaching part of the test. The examiner could take the part of a student and have the examinee teach him a pattern or theoretical concept.
!


Theory is examined -- but not until the higher level of exams--- again-- taking 1 dance " apart " would not really constitute a thorough exam of the syllabus at assoc. level .

What the convoluted idea behind later-- rather than now ( about theory ), is to me lacking in the whole purpose of "new" qual. teachers--.

The rule in the UK, used to be an additional yr in a recog. school of dance ,under the supervision of a teacher with higher credentials . One was considered a trainee with just an Assoc. level.










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[Me]

I'm working through the DVIDA materials with the guidance of my coach. I sent you a PM. :)