Change partners...please!

[MadamSamba]

Hi, folks...was at a 2-hour class the other night. It was comprised of three couples, myself and two other single females...it was rather distressing because the teacher didn't request a change of partners until the last 15 minutes, by which time we were so behind the class he might as well not have bothered.

I realise that each couple has a right to stay together and shouldn't be made to dance with others in the class, but I was a bit annoyed. I barely got to dance and couldn't practice what we were learning because there was no one to dance with and the other girls and I couldn't help but feeling as though we were left out of the teaching, despite having paid the same amount as the folks who came as couples.

I also realise it's par for the course in dancing that if you go single, you aren't necessarily going to have someone to dance with, but what are your thoughts on this international dilemma? Even if my motives are selfish, surely the aim of learning to dance is learning to dance well with a variety of people.

For the teachers out there, what's your policy?

[lily]

Yes, I agree - it's extremely annoying. All the teachers I have learnt with ask their students to change partners frequently. We dance in a circle and when the teacher says "change" all the leads move along one person. But of course when there are more women than men (as is often the case) we get left in the 'gap'. If this happens just when the teacher is introducing and practicing a new move it's so annoying. Everyone else gets to practice slowly and without music then I hear "change", the teacher puts on the music, I move around the circle to the next dancer and find myself completely lost. I hate that!

[Dancegal]

That is exactly why some studios demand that ALL students (whether with partners or not) switch partners frequently during classes. It is divisive and unfair to the unpartnered folks. If couples wish to only dance with one another, they should be taking private lessons, not group ones.

[Adwiz]

We take group lessons at two large studios, and neither one ever makes the students change partners.

I would much rather change partners frequently, and I always feel bad for the single women without partners who end up doing the whole lesson alone. I've volunteered sometimes to leave my partner and help them, but because I'm the only one my partner gets a bit annoyed by that. If the teacher made it happen there would be no problem.

I think that, while certainly there would be challenges with some of the women who don't know what they're doing, changing partners would be healthy as it helps both parties get stronger as dancers. The women get to see what different leads are like, and the men get to experience the way different women interpret their leads, giving them stronger capabilities in this area while learning the steps.

[pygmalion]

I agree adwiz. It's not just bad for singles who never get to dance partnered. It's a lost opportunity for the people who do have partners -- they'd likely develop better lead/follow skills if they were required to dance with different people. What better opportunity than in a structured environment like dance class?

[dancin_feet]

We always change partners during group lessons, and usually go through the step at least once with each partner. There are the "gaps" where you are left by yourself (either lead or follow, depending) and some people don't even want to practice the step by themselves, they just stand there and wait for a partner.

I usually practice by myself until we change and I pick up a partner. At least then I get the step more entrenched in my brain. I suppose it's all in how you want to use the dance class. I prefer to learn the step itself, not just learn how to dance it with someone.

[LindyQuest]

I realise that each couple has a right to stay together and shouldn't be made to dance with others in the class, but I was a bit annoyed. I barely got to dance and couldn't practice what we were learning because there was no one to dance with and the other girls and I couldn't help but feeling as though we were left out of the teaching, despite having paid the same amount as the folks who came as couples.

I completely agree - there's nothing worse than paying for a dance lesson and not getting to dance!

I did have an unusual lesson a few weeks ago, though. There were three leads and myself, so it was kind of weird to be the one to have to rotate over and over again! I did feel bad for the leads, though.

[dancin_feet]

At the studio I go to, they actually recommend for couples that don't want to swap that they take only private lessons. Other than that, they are encouraged to swap by telling them the benefits and advantages of dancing with more that just their partner (usual studio speel ......).

There are no couples like this at the moment. It is a lot more fun dancing with others. I think everybody realises this after the initial fear and reluctance settles down.

[Pacion]

MadamSamba, what style of dance was this?

[Dancegal]

A dance community is not built by having dance lessons that cater to couples (speaking like the single gal that I am :wink: ). If that had been the case, it would have been highly unlikely I (and many other singles) would have taken dance lessons.

My first swing lessons had twice the follows. I am glad they switched partners frequently. Glad I stuck with it in spite of it since the lead/follow ratio improved and the lessons got to be more fun. Even nowadays, I hear people give the excuse that because they don't have a partner they won't take lessons. PLEEEASE! It does not help if there are studios out there who in the name of keeping one group happy (partnered folks) they neglect other paying customers. There is only so much a follow can do in terms of learning steps by herself - connection (especially in more challenging dances) is critical to the learning process.

[twnkltoz]

That's my pet peeve. As a teacher, if there are couples who refuse to rotate (unless it's for a good reason, like one of them is sick. My husband doesn't like to rotate because he has arthritis and doesn't like to be pulled on.), I tend to neglect them and spend more time on people who came to class to learn. I find that people who refuse to rotate also refuse to listen to instructions.

A few weeks ago I was teaching cha cha to a beginning class. I was showing them the 'latin' or 'side' basic, and this guy (who refused to change partners) was doing a half-***ed progressive basic...you know, kind of diagonally forward chasse. Anyway, I went over to him and explained that we want to go straight to the side. He said, "Well, maybe YOU do." I explained that this is ballroom cha cha and most of the moves we'll be learning will work off of the side basic, then walked away. I never said another word to him.

I always give the reasons why we rotate on the first night of class, but you can't force people to change partners. These are adults, after all!

[SDsalsaguy]

These are adults, after all!
Chronologically perhaps... :lol:

[dancer21]

In a perfect world we would all have partners going into the group class.


As I understand it, in most European countries you must have a partner to attend a coaching or groups. The "pro-am" market as we know it here in the US, Canada, and I believe Austraila as well is not the same as in other parts of the world. In fact mostly non-existent.

I am told by friends in Ireland who organize a ballroom cqmpetition there that the Italians are catching on to the whole idea.

If I and my partner have spent the same amount of money ( per person ) to attend the class, isnt it our right to dance with each other exclusively?

Although I agree with all of the benefits of changing partners within a group class it is impossible to make someone do something they do not wish, especially if they have a partner already and have paid for the class.

As a teacher of group class I always used the "extra" ladies in the class as my demonstrators to keep them active in the class, alternating through the lot of them. If there was a shortage of men in the class I simply worked through the ladies in the class, then went to the couples who probably needed more time to figure out the step we were working on because they did not have the benefit of dancing with the teacher one on one...

Actually in a perfect world we wouldnt need to attend dance classes... :D

[Dancegal]

In a perfect world we would all have partners going into the group class.


As I understand it, in most European countries you must have a partner to attend a coaching or groups. The "pro-am" market as we know it here in the US, Canada, and I believe Austraila as well is not the same as in other parts of the world. In fact mostly non-existent.

I am told by friends in Ireland who organize a ballroom cqmpetition there that the Italians are catching on to the whole idea.

If I and my partner have spent the same amount of money ( per person ) to attend the class, isnt it our right to dance with each other exclusively?

Although I agree with all of the benefits of changing partners within a group class it is impossible to make someone do something they do not wish, especially if they have a partner already and have paid for the class.

As a teacher of group class I always used the "extra" ladies in the class as my demonstrators to keep them active in the class, alternating through the lot of them. If there was a shortage of men in the class I simply worked through the ladies in the class, then went to the couples who probably needed more time to figure out the step we were working on because they did not have the benefit of dancing with the teacher one on one...

Actually in a perfect world we wouldnt need to attend dance classes... :D

Glad I don't live in Europe :x Sounds too stuffy for me.

So much for "dance communities" . Ala "Bridget Jones" = full of "smug marrieds" and/or "smug couples" (making this last one up :wink: )

I have a word for couples refusing to follow studio policy on switching partners - selfish. I am entitled to my opinion.

[KevinL]

Like many others on Dance-Forums, I fully support the idea of trading partners, but I know that I can't make people trade who don't want to trade. One of my dancing friends/students has a new boyfriend who is a doctor, and because he spends so much of his time maintaining professional distance from his patients he finds it very difficult to get close to people while dancing. The first class he attended he didn't trade at all, but he is slowly getting better because he sees the advantage of trading partners.

There is another local teacher who has been teaching here for years and who doesn't even ask his students to trade partners, because they don't want to trade. Fortunately for me that means that all the non-partnered people who go to his classes and have a bad time (assuming they don't give up on dancing completely) then come to my class and have a great time being social and learning more quickly than the non-traders.

There also used to be a local dance club here for a couple of decades that only allowed couples to join, and only allowed couples to attend their dances. They actually wouldn't let people in to the dances if they didn't have partners. That group is no longer in business, in part because their model was not sustainable (in my opinion).

In my classes I have people trade partners regularly. I also practice without music with at least two different partners before starting the music, and then trade to a new partner with the music. That way, even when we are 2:1, everyone gets a chance to dance.

Again, though, I don't force people to trade. I explain why it is a good idea, and let the individuals decide. For those people who decide not to push their comfort zone to include other people, that is fine. When my partners and I join the class we dance with the people who are trading partners. It's a vaguely unfair way of ensuring that the non-traders see how much more effective it is to trade partners, but I don't try that hard to convince them after the first week. Usually everyone ends up trading by the second or third week, though.

Kevin

[dancer21]

KevinL, nicely put.

On these same lines, how do groups work in your area? Are they apart of an individuals program or are they what I have recently heard called "drop-in" where the attendees pay a fee at each group?

[hobrien]

Hi,

I just have to say this,

I am a "Europeen", I have danced Salsa in six locations in three countries in Europe, I can't say I'm an expert since there are almost 20 different countries in Europe. I guess there is huge cultural variations in all these countries since I have seen it in three.

Now I have only met "One" couple ever who refused to change partner.
I have danced Salsa for five years.

Personally I love to live and dance Salsa in "Europe".

But I think it could be just as fun in the U.S.

Hugh

[bordertangoman]

I agree with most of what has been said in support of trading partners, as I learnt this way. When I teach I ask the ladies to move around the line of dance and shuffle them a bit if they are more women than men so all the women get to follow at some stage. its a perpetual problem of unequal numbers of each sex so I'm grateful for any women who are prepared to lead even for the duration of an exercise.
So changing partners is compulsory - in a practica they can dance with whoever they like- but leading, for women, is not.

[KevinL]

On these same lines, how do groups work in your area?

Groups? As in group classes? I think that's what you meant to ask.

I'll start by saying that I live in Vermont, and that their are only two partner dance studios. One is a latin dance (almost exclusively) studio, and the other is a competative studio (relatively small, I think. I'll guess altogther less than 40 students and that could be high). In addition to those two physical locations there are several independant dance teachers who teach at various locations. The population (in my opinion) isn't large enough to support the full-time studios, as those people who run them either: a) have another job, or b) are retired and do it part time. Other than wedding couples there are very few people who are willing to pay for private lessons.

Anyway, my group classes run for four weeks, and I expect people to attend all four hour-long classes. It's ok to miss the later classes since a lot of people repeat the classes several times, but we cover a lot of basic information the first couple of classes so if the person knows they will miss the first or second class they either have to take a private lesson to catch up, or wait until the next month.

In each four week class I cover the basics of three dances. Either Waltz, Foxtrot and Tango for Smooth I, or Rumba, Cha Cha and Merengue for Rhythm I. Those people who repeat the level I class can do so for half price. This is very helpful for them because they get to practice their basics again and again, and it is good for new students (who trade partners) because they get to dance with more experienced dancers.

I repeat the same Level I classes each month so people can join anytime their schedule permits. I have five different level II classes (for both Rhythm and Smooth) that cover different patterns and technique each month. I usually encourage people to repeat the level I class at least once before doing the level II class, even if it is just the hour before their level II class. It helps to practice basics before the Level II class. I've tried to make them all equally difficult, but some months are more challanging than others. (I've had very few people got through the Level II classes more than once, even though they can't remember everything we covered the first time through. That seems to be getting better, though.

Other dance teachers who work for various park and rec programs, or athletic clubs, tend to do the "medley" classes as well, and those programs tend to have people sign up for the whole series.

There are other dance teachers who teach exclusively swing, salsa, or tango, and they use a mixture of whole-series and drop-in rates, but I'm not sure of the details.

The only other person who teaches social ballroom on a regular basis generally teaches one dance for 4-5 weeks, and allows drop-in students. (The same guy who doesn't ask for people to trade partners.) Personally I think this is a bad plan because if you work on the same dance for four weeks (teaching new patterns each week), by the end of that four weeks you are probably doing fairly difficult stuff, even if the students still don't have the basics down well. Even worse is if a new student comes in on the fourth week and tries to catch up. That is a recipe for dissatisfaction and loosing a potential dancer, in my opinion.

It seems to work for this teacher, though, because most of the students have been taking classes for years, and (it seems to me) when they come back to a dance after 8-10 months the students have conciously forgotten a lot and so it all feels new. However it is in their memory somewhere and so they catch on fairly easily. Again, though, not those beginners.

Are they a part of an individuals program or are they what I have recently heard called "drop-in" where the attendees pay a fee at each group?

Again, I'm not sure what you mean by an "individuals program". Since there aren't many people locally who do private lessons, and that seems to be the basis of "dance programs" in other locations, the group classes are not part of any program.

I interpret your question to be "can people sign up for just one 4-week group class", and that is the common method of learning to dance around here. The term "drop-in" is different, though, in that it means that any given night an individual can join a class. I don't allow drop-ins in my Level I (beginning) classes, but do sometimes allow it in the Level II classes.

Kevin

[Hank]

I was at a group class last week, and everyone was rotating partners except the couple next to me. They increasingly lagged behind the other students and became more and more frustrated with the class and each other. I wanted to tell them that the class had a variety of ability levels (including some people who had taken the class multiple times), and it's so much easier to learn an new pattern when dancing with someone who already knows it. If they would just rotate, it would be so much easier for them. But, I figured if they wouldn't take the advice of the instructor who asked them to rotate, they certainly wouldn't listen to me.

They left angry and frustrated with the class and with each other. I don't expect to ever see them again. I wonder how many people have been turned off to dancing because they refused to rotate partners.

[KevinL]

They left angry and frustrated with the class and with each other. I don't expect to ever see them again. I wonder how many people have been turned off to dancing because they refused to rotate partners.

Probably a lot of people have been turned off from dancing because they saw everyone else progressing faster and therefor thought they weren't good. That wasn't it, the other people just had a wider (and more experienced) set of partners!.

As a teacher I can't hold the rest of the class back (very much) to the speed of the slowest couple. That just makes it boring for the people who are putting the time into learning to lead multiple partners.

Kevin

[peachexploration]

One more note to add to this. This really cheats the teacher. If you refuse to change partners in a "group" class where its a requirement, then you should take only "private" classes which usually costs more hence, cheating the instructor. Often times, students who refuse to change partners take more class time away from the other students particularly if they are having problems with specific moves. I know this one lady in class not too long ago did not want "anyone" dancing with her husband. Who knows why? :roll: There was so much chaos in that particular class that no one was thinking of any husband, including their own. :roll: Moral of the story: Not in the group mood? Take private classes. :evil:

[Kitty]

Whether it is good or bad to switch partners depends on the level of the class and on what you want to get out of it.
In Europe people without partners generally don't dance competitive ballroom dances - everyone has to have a partner during a lesson - that is because changing partners would slow some people down and also because partners are generally the same level, which is not true about everyone in the group.
However if competition is not the goal, then it is important to learn leading/following and it is ok to switch partners. Generally switching partners works in lower level classes, and doesn't work so well in silver levels and up. So if you are dancing salsa or mambo in Europe you'll switch partners, but if it is competitive ballroom you won't.

My coach makes us rotate in the beginning of the semester, when we have newbies, and when we learn a new dance. Closer to competitions we practice with competition partners.

[peachexploration]

Hi Kitty. Welcome to the DF!

[Pacion]

I know this one lady in class not too long ago did not want "anyone" dancing with her husband. Who knows why? :roll:

Insecure/jealousy? :oops:

[SDsalsaguy]

Whether it is good or bad to switch partners depends on the level of the class and on what you want to get out of it.
In Europe people without partners generally don't dance competitive ballroom dances - everyone has to have a partner during a lesson - that is because changing partners would slow some people down and also because partners are generally the same level, which is not true about everyone in the group.
However if competition is not the goal, then it is important to learn leading/following and it is ok to switch partners. Generally switching partners works in lower level classes, and doesn't work so well in silver levels and up. So if you are dancing salsa or mambo in Europe you'll switch partners, but if it is competitive ballroom you won't.


Welcome to the forums Kitty! :D

You make some good points here. Rotating is certainly of great assistance at lower levels and when trying to learn generalizable skills (i.e. leading & following, etc.)... learning more specific skills, at a higher/more competitive level, however, is a different story. In such cases the goal is no longer the same... onw doesn't want to learn how to "direct" or "read" in a general sense but, rather, wants to master how they can execute their part of "x" as done with "y" (their partner).

[twnkltoz]

At our studio, our classes last for the calendar month...four or five weeks. Students must start by the first or second week. We have "intro" classes which give the basics of two different dances during the month (ie, waltz and foxtrot--two weeks of each), plus beginning through advanced (beginning silver) classes that only concentrate on one dance. Each beginning class teaches about four or five patterns, depending on the dance, with enough technique to get them moving comfortably with a partner (concentrating more on partnering skills than all the little details of movement). As we get into the higher levels, in one month you often only learn two or three patterns and more technique. We also have a "technique" classe which doesn't really teach patterns, just technique for smooth/standard.

We do have a couple of drop-in classes...one is salsa and the other is the lesson before the saturday night dance which changes each week. Drop-ins are allowed in the technique class, but not really encouraged.

[Kitty]

I know this one lady in class not too long ago did not want "anyone" dancing with her husband. Who knows why? :roll:

Insecure/jealousy? :oops:

or maybe she doesn't want to dance with anybody else herself.