Tips for dancing on crowded dance floors

[bordertangoman]

In a practica or class you can practice:
Rodolpho would get us dancing then using chairs he would corral us into a smaller and smaller space.
Get non- dancers to stand with arms outstretched so you have to navigate round them.
Divide the class into four groups, one in each corner them dance to the opposite corner. To add a layer of difficulty limit the type of steps you can do; eg no back steps, only one side step so you can’t retreat back the way you came.

Other things that help.
1. No ganchos or boleos – you risk kicking someone
2. The woman takes responsibility for behind and to her left where the man can’t see. She puts the brakes on if there’s a likelihood of collision.
3. Avoid back steps unless you look behind first. Ditto for moving to the man’s right. Also you can send your foot out behind with no weight before you take the step to feel if the space is free.
4. Use rocking steps if you are cornered this allows you to rotate as a couple on the spot until a space becomes free. Two options here: rocking face to face or alongside. Easier to turn counter clockwise.
5. Embrace; I have seen in the film the tango Lesson that the man’s left arm/woman’s right is bent up at the elbow with hand facing toward oneself and close to the shoulder this obviously takes up less room. Or another temporary change is to drop the arms alongside the body to pass by someone to man’s left.
6. Forward ochos: do these close embrace style; a small step and a tight turn

All of this is a combination of common-sense, navigation skill and courtesy. And it can be fun. Apologise if you do bump someone.
Lastly: carry third party insurance!!!
:D :D :D :D

[jantango]

Other things that help.
1. No ganchos or boleos – you risk kicking someone
2. The woman takes responsibility for behind and to her left where the man can’t see. She puts the brakes on if there’s a likelihood of collision.
3. Avoid back steps unless you look behind first. Ditto for moving to the man’s right. Also you can send your foot out behind with no weight before you take the step to feel if the space is free.
4. Use rocking steps if you are cornered this allows you to rotate as a couple on the spot until a space becomes free. Two options here: rocking face to face or alongside. Easier to turn counter clockwise.
5. Embrace; I have seen in the film the tango Lesson that the man’s left arm/woman’s right is bent up at the elbow with hand facing toward oneself and close to the shoulder this obviously takes up less room. Or another temporary change is to drop the arms alongside the body to pass by someone to man’s left.
6. Forward ochos: do these close embrace style; a small step and a tight turn

All of this is a combination of common-sense, navigation skill and courtesy. And it can be fun. Apologise if you do bump someone.
Lastly: carry third party insurance!!!
:D :D :D :D

1. No ganchos or voleos is obvious. They are not for the social floor.

2. Women have to dance with their eyes open to help their partners. They can also apply pressure with their left hand on his back as a warning signal of impending danger.

3. Men can step back to the center of the floor, but not against the line of dance. Backsteps are allowed as long as you stay in your own lane.

4. Rather than rocking steps, try a simple box step which accomplishes the same thing. Milongueros use it all the time.

5. The man's upper left arm is close to his body with his forearm vertical. He takes the woman's hand so that there is a palm-to-palm hold. It's nice to hold hands and have support at the same time.

6. Backward ochos in close embrace do very nicely. Forward ochos can be awkward.

Apologies to other couples when you are the offender. And gentlemen, when your partner stumbles or you step on her toe, a quick perdon makes it all better for us.

[bordertangoman]

Apologies to other couples when you are the offender. And gentlemen, when your partner stumbles or you step on her toe, a quick perdon makes it all better for us.


I would apologise whether I am the offender or not; I think this is more gentlemanly conduct and smooths things over.

[bastet]

1. No ganchos or voleos is obvious. They are not for the social floor.

2. Women have to dance with their eyes open to help their partners. They can also apply pressure with their left hand on his back as a warning signal of impending danger.

3. Men can step back to the center of the floor, but not against the line of dance. Backsteps are allowed as long as you stay in your own lane.

4. Rather than rocking steps, try a simple box step which accomplishes the same thing. Milongueros use it all the time.

5. The man's upper left arm is close to his body with his forearm vertical. He takes the woman's hand so that there is a palm-to-palm hold. It's nice to hold hands and have support at the same time.

6. Backward ochos in close embrace do very nicely. Forward ochos can be awkward.

Apologies to other couples when you are the offender. And gentlemen, when your partner stumbles or you step on her toe, a quick perdon makes it all better for us.

This is the general advice I stick with when people ask, plus a couple of small but I think important extras- a couple of small checking (rock) turns to the left and right- basically the ocho cortado pulled apart in to it's component halves which can be used together or separately. These will take you around both directions so you can see most places you might want to go, and offer enough variations to be able to play with it musically when there is no wher to go.

We were taught to turn the last half of the box towards the center of the floor so it doesn't go against LOD.

forward ochos can be quite awkward in close embrace (ie- one that you are trying to maintain), but so can back ochos. A lot of people here in the states have not learned non-dissociated back ochos. While those are pretty easy to do in close embrace, the fully dissociated ones can be awkward if a guy is trying to do close embrace and not roll it, especially when you have guys trying to lead fully dissociated ochos in place ( afull 180), rather than traveling and that's what constitutes "ocho" to many people no matter how much you try to show them a different possibility. And then there's the ladies who auto-dissociate if you have a lead who knows the difference and is attempting to control his torso rotation to keep them non-dissociated and they just do it anyway and assume the lead didn't have a clue how to lead an ocho. :rolleyes:

I keep my eyes open on crowded floors unless it is someone I know has very good floorcraft skills and even then, I tend to "help out" in that area in a bad crowd (one who isn't doing a good job on floorcraft).

[kieronneedscake]

Girls, don't leave it entirely up to us. You can help too:

Recognise leads for small steps, don't just charge on in your usual way.

Dance with everything you've got. When we're stuck in traffic and running out of ideas we need inspiration and comfort. A confident partner who enjoys the music (as opposed to freaking out) will help us keep our game up until the floor begins to move again. Little embellishments and other unlead motions can help to keep the feeling of dance alive when we are unable to move.

No. That change of direction during pivot was NOT a boleo opportunity. It was trying not to hit people.

Dancing small in tight spaces takes more effort than more naturally sized dancing.

For the guys:

Move yourself to move your partner. If you lead her into space that you vacate, you don't need to travel much at all. Skilled dancers can do dizzying arrays of turns on the spot without needing significantly more space than if they were just standing there. Note that dizziness is not necessarily a virtue.

Find another couple you can trust and stay with them on the dance floor. Get in behind them and stay there. As long as you don't pressure them too closely from behind, both couples benefit from the reliable presence. If particularly on top of your game or feeling prescient, you can match movement with them and dance as a couple of couples, using the undulations in their progress around the floor yourself, in effect maintaining constant distance from them. I've heard talk of entire dance floors working together like this but I've not seen it yet.

The number one problem I see on busy floors is that people dance the same as they do on empty floors. Too much motion, not enough restraint, and no concern for the possibility of an accident. For everyone to enjoy the milonga, you must adapt, which means breaking habits and shelving the show-off in you.

[bastet]

In a practica or class you can practice:
Rodolpho would get us dancing then using chairs he would corral us into a smaller and smaller space.
Get non- dancers to stand with arms outstretched so you have to navigate round them.
Divide the class into four groups, one in each corner them dance to the opposite corner. To add a layer of difficulty limit the type of steps you can do; eg no back steps, only one side step so you can’t retreat back the way you came.

Other things that help.
1. No ganchos or boleos – you risk kicking someone
2. The woman takes responsibility for behind and to her left where the man can’t see. She puts the brakes on if there’s a likelihood of collision.
3. Avoid back steps unless you look behind first. Ditto for moving to the man’s right. Also you can send your foot out behind with no weight before you take the step to feel if the space is free.
4. Use rocking steps if you are cornered this allows you to rotate as a couple on the spot until a space becomes free. Two options here: rocking face to face or alongside. Easier to turn counter clockwise.
5. Embrace; I have seen in the film the tango Lesson that the man’s left arm/woman’s right is bent up at the elbow with hand facing toward oneself and close to the shoulder this obviously takes up less room. Or another temporary change is to drop the arms alongside the body to pass by someone to man’s left.
6. Forward ochos: do these close embrace style; a small step and a tight turn

All of this is a combination of common-sense, navigation skill and courtesy. And it can be fun. Apologise if you do bump someone.
Lastly: carry third party insurance!!!
:D :D :D :D

in a practica situation- try a hula hoop about 36-40" diameter. Dance an entire dance inside the hula hoop for practice to make yourself become creative with the kind of vocabulary that fits in it.

and if you don't think you can have fun in one spot see these videos:

social tango:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elMyNZId4Zc

a little bit of spice:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLMjJaOTf9I

[bastet]

Find another couple you can trust and stay with them on the dance floor. Get in behind them and stay there. As long as you don't pressure them too closely from behind, both couples benefit from the reliable presence. If particularly on top of your game or feeling prescient, you can match movement with them and dance as a couple of couples, using the undulations in their progress around the floor yourself, in effect maintaining constant distance from them. I've heard talk of entire dance floors working together like this but I've not seen it yet.

The number one problem I see on busy floors is that people dance the same as they do on empty floors. Too much motion, not enough restraint, and no concern for the possibility of an accident. For everyone to enjoy the milonga, you must adapt, which means breaking habits and shelving the show-off in you.

We were at a milonga last month where Ney and Jennifer were dancing and my partner was dancing in front of Ney and said afterwards that was one of the few times in the evening he felt "safe" due to your second paragraph, the main problem with busy floors.

Unfortunately, this leads me back to the problem of...there isn't hardly anyone teaching movement for small spaces....and if large moves are all you know, and no one has ever shown you how to adjust them or a shown you a set of vocabulary for small spaces...well...you are right back to your main problem....

We actually had to go to an entirely different city in a different state to learn small space movement, and we are completely disregarded back here in our own town as having "too simple" a dance.

[bordertangoman]

in a practica situation- try a hula hoop about 36-40" diameter. Dance an entire dance inside the hula hoop for practice to make yourself become creative with the kind of vocabulary that fits in it.

and if you don't think you can have fun in one spot see these videos:

social tango:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elMyNZId4Zc

a little bit of spice:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLMjJaOTf9I

I like this one

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRQtA2KABTo&feature=related

but not sure if it helps!

[bastet]

I like this one

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRQtA2KABTo&feature=related

but not sure if it helps!

;) no - but it's funny!- :tongue:

[Captain Jep]

Great vids!

An obvious one but Im still amazed that not everyone does it on a crowded dance floor - dance in close embrace!

[bastet]

Great vids!

An obvious one but Im still amazed that not everyone does it on a crowded dance floor - dance in close embrace!

that's probably the hardest part of all...so much goes wrong if you don't have any actual classes on it and just try it as a DIY. There's so much cheating you can get away with in open you just can't in close...like backweighting. I know leads and follows who have gotten away with years of classes without learning how to place their weight properly so they can "learn moves". Or learning how the walk works...you sure can fudge it in open, but you'just end up banging legs in close embrace...see the backweighting problem above...and so forth...

and truly- I don't have anything against dancing in open, but fundamentals like proper weight placement having a good walk just don't seem to get covered very well and are often appear to be sacrificed for vocabulary. Then you get to close embrace and these fundamentals have to be done adequately or you just end up with a mess, especially in turns. Often people are having to unlearn (very frustrating) poor habits they picked up to dance close embrace, because it is usually taught here as a more advacned concept. Then they get frustrated that they feel like a "beginner" again.

[bordertangoman]

that's probably the hardest part of all...so much goes wrong if you don't have any actual classes on it and just try it as a DIY. There's so much cheating you can get away with in open you just can't in close...like backweighting. I know leads and follows who have gotten away with years of classes without learning how to place their weight properly so they can "learn moves". Or learning how the walk works...you sure can fudge it in open, but you'just end up banging legs in close embrace...see the backweighting problem above...and so forth...

and truly- I don't have anything against dancing in open, but fundamentals like proper weight placement having a good walk just don't seem to get covered very well and are often appear to be sacrificed for vocabulary. Then you get to close embrace and these fundamentals have to be done adequately or you just end up with a mess, especially in turns. Often people are having to unlearn (very frustrating) poor habits they picked up to dance close embrace, because it is usually taught here as a more advacned concept. Then they get frustrated that they feel like a "beginner" again.

see 2.10 in this video for a patented teaching method of ensuring persons stay in the right spot ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LdY0ROdpp4

[Steve Pastor]

Talk about frustrated! People used to ask me why I didn't just quit, I was so frustrated. And this went on for quite a while. Lauré Haile was the national director for Arthur Murray studios in the 50s and 60s. When she was interviewed in the 80s, she lamented that people didn't take dance seriously like they did....back in the 50s.
Well, some of us still take it somewhat seriously even though we don't make a living from it like she did.
There is a great sense of challenge and accomplishment in being able to dance in a crowd, being able to express yourself and the music in motion, within the limitations of the crowd.
And, yes, that rather specific, and not very easy "close embrace" techinique (which to me means apilado-like) is very, very helpful.
It's kinda like a challenge.

[hbboogie1]

that's probably the hardest part of all...so much goes wrong if you don't have any actual classes on it and just try it as a DIY. There's so much cheating you can get away with in open you just can't in close...like backweighting. I know leads and follows who have gotten away with years of classes without learning how to place their weight properly so they can "learn moves". Or learning how the walk works...you sure can fudge it in open, but you'just end up banging legs in close embrace...see the backweighting problem above...and so forth...

and truly- I don't have anything against dancing in open, but fundamentals like proper weight placement having a good walk just don't seem to get covered very well and are often appear to be sacrificed for vocabulary. Then you get to close embrace and these fundamentals have to be done adequately or you just end up with a mess, especially in turns. Often people are having to unlearn (very frustrating) poor habits they picked up to dance close embrace, because it is usually taught here as a more advacned concept. Then they get frustrated that they feel like a "beginner" again.

It comes down to the instructor and the student it's easy to dance bad in open or close embrace. It's very hard to learn to dance well no matter what the embrace. The concept of Salon is to dance both open and closed embrace which makes one skilled at both. Anyone learning only close embrace would have a hard time leading open embrace properly.

[bastet]

see 2.10 in this video for a patented teaching method of ensuring persons stay in the right spot ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LdY0ROdpp4


dear dear! if that doesn't keep you in place, nothing will! :p

[bastet]

It comes down to the instructor and the student it's easy to dance bad in open or close embrace. It's very hard to learn to dance well no matter what the embrace. The concept of Salon is to dance both open and closed embrace which makes one skilled at both. Anyone learning only close embrace would have a hard time leading open embrace properly.

I don't have a problem with open, and I do think people should learn to be adequeate in both. Sure, it's possible to do close embrace poorly also, but as I said, and others have said from time to time that it's easier to "get away" with things in open (like backweighting and armleading) and then go out and social dance (which is why it gets taught to beginners) and still be able to dance, at least to some degree.

But IMO it isn't really possible to learn close embrace, fudge it, and still get away with things socially because until you learn where to put your weight and how to move with the torso (and conincedentally have similar techniques apply to movement and leading in open embrace) then what you can do in close embrace is quite limited and doesn't feel very good anyway.

I happen to disagree that if you learn close you won't lead open well. We don't do a lot of open anymore, and since we don't it always feels shaky when we go bakc to it, but all the proper weight placement, moving from the torso and so forth is all there, which we do in close embrace, so it's mainly just readjusting to the feeling of open, rather than lack of technical understanding. I think learning to lead properly in close embrace actually preps people better for working in open by making them think of the torso first, and how they place their weight, and their "presence" towards their partner.

[Ampster]

In a packed crowded milonga... Learn to lead a giro/molinette, and ocho cortado (to the right, and to the left) in close embrace while only occupying only a spce big enough to for the both of you.

When the floor gets packed and is barely moving, doing these would allow you to keep the motion of dance, even if you're temporarily stationary. It also comes in handy by allowing you (lead) to turn and see where you're going. You're blindsided to the right, and from behind. Knowing how to do these, allows you to spot space before moving into it.

[Captain Jep]

:D

I thought of it as I was on a crowded dance floor on Friday. A woman "insisted" on dancing open embrace and then compounded the problem by putting no pressure at all into the embrace. I dont know how she thought I was going to lead her : by telepathy maybe? Needless to say, our dance didnt last for very long...

[hbboogie1]

I don't have a problem with open, and I do think people should learn to be adequeate in both. Sure, it's possible to do close embrace poorly also, but as I said, and others have said from time to time that it's easier to "get away" with things in open (like backweighting and armleading) and then go out and social dance (which is why it gets taught to beginners) and still be able to dance, at least to some degree.

But IMO it isn't really possible to learn close embrace, fudge it, and still get away with things socially because until you learn where to put your weight and how to move with the torso (and conincedentally have similar techniques apply to movement and leading in open embrace) then what you can do in close embrace is quite limited and doesn't feel very good anyway.

I understand what your saying and I agree open embrace is easier for beginners to learn but after you get beyond the beginner stage and into advanced Salon it becomes technically harder to do because in open embrace every mistake can easily be seen. And I speak from personal experience dancing salon style well is very challenging. I’m not saying one style is better I dance and enjoy both.

[bastet]

:D

I thought of it as I was on a crowded dance floor on Friday. A woman "insisted" on dancing open embrace and then compounded the problem by putting no pressure at all into the embrace. I dont know how she thought I was going to lead her : by telepathy maybe? Needless to say, our dance didnt last for very long...

most likely backweigthed and probably not grounded. :rolleyes: I see that a lot. I get similar lack of connection from the local leaders (open and closed)...so sad...emphasized what I was saying about teachers glossing over fundamental techniques.

[Steve Pastor]

most likely backweigthed and probably not grounded. I see that a lot.
Yes, and FEEL it, too.

[bastet]

I understand what your saying and I agree open embrace is easier for beginners to learn but after you get beyond the beginner stage and into advanced Salon it becomes technically harder to do because in open embrace every mistake can easily be seen. And I speak from personal experience dancing salon style well is very challenging. I’m not saying one style is better I dance and enjoy both.

Absolutely- and this is what I find so ironic about open embrace dancing. The tehcnical elements you experience later are very difficult to do if you don't understand how to connect to your partner...but yet it gets taught as the "beginner" embrace.

I actually think advacned open embrace work quite difficult. I didn't say, though, that close embrace is harder. At more advanced levels, they are both challenging.

I did say that learning open at the beginning can lead to bad habits. I happen to just be a fan of thinking people should learn close embrace first (just throw them in the deep end- don't sugar coat it and play in to many people's personal space issues or pretend it won't be hard work), then move to more complicated open work later when they understand movement and connection better.

[bastet]

Yes, and FEEL it, too.

all too true. I know I am not perfect myself, in this regard, but I do try! :D

[Captain Jep]

Absolutely- and this is what I find so ironic about open embrace dancing. The tehcnical elements you experience later are very difficult to do if you don't understand how to connect to your partner...but yet it gets taught as the "beginner" embrace.

I actually think advacned open embrace work quite difficult. I didn't say, though, that close embrace is harder. At more advanced levels, they are both challenging.

I did say that learning open at the beginning can lead to bad habits. I happen to just be a fan of thinking people should learn close embrace first (just throw them in the deep end- don't sugar coat it and play in to many people's personal space issues or pretend it won't be hard work), then move to more complicated open work later when they understand movement and connection better.

I absolutely agree. Very well put.

Personally, I find the ballroom embrace (touching stomachs) quite weird : but then I would have to get past that to get anywhere...

[hbboogie1]

Absolutely- and this is what I find so ironic about open embrace dancing. The tehcnical elements you experience later are very difficult to do if you don't understand how to connect to your partner...but yet it gets taught as the "beginner" embrace.

I actually think advacned open embrace work quite difficult. I didn't say, though, that close embrace is harder. At more advanced levels, they are both challenging.

I did say that learning open at the beginning can lead to bad habits. I happen to just be a fan of thinking people should learn close embrace first (just throw them in the deep end- don't sugar coat it and play in to many people's personal space issues or pretend it won't be hard work), then move to more complicated open work later when they understand movement and connection better.

Salon style is taught from close embrace. You learn close embrace and connection before you start to open your partner up. Watch any of the great dancers like Roberto Herrara you will see them start with a closed embrace they will walk closed and turn closed then they will do a figure that leads the lady into an open position then they return to the closed position again. This is advanced salon style.

[bastet]

Personally, I find the ballroom embrace (touching stomachs) quite weird : but then I would have to get past that to get anywhere...

:lol: hee hee... it's been too long now. I wouldn't even know what to do in ballroom anymore.

[bastet]

Salon style is taught from close embrace. You learn close embrace and connection before you start to open your partner up. Watch any of the great dancers like Roberto Herrara you will see them start with a closed embrace they will walk closed and turn closed then they will do a figure that leads the lady into an open position then they return to the closed position again. This is advanced salon style.

oh well- perhaps in your town you do...and good on you for having teachers competent in both.

I am certainly aware and have seen plenty of dancing that moves from closed to open and back again, though the original post in all of this was what to do in tight quarters, and opening up is generally not an option in this case...which led to this sidetrack about close embrace.

And again, I err on the side of learning close embrace first. I dance with so many people that can't keep an embrace closed. They think you have to open to turn, or you have to open to do this or that. Honestly, I think people should learn how to do all the aspects of tango, including open, and including dancing on crowded or small floors without having to move your partner in to open becuase you haven't learned how to dance without it.

Where I come from, people learn almost nothing of how to actually connect to a partner. The local Argentine teacher appears to emphasize the "social" aspect at the expense of teaching fundamentals like connection...Don't care to lean close embrace?..no problem...you don't have to learn it...we'll just show you the no connection connection....backweighted? No problem...that's how everyone dances here....Like I said, I had to go to a different city to learn how to connect to people and learn close embrace.

[hbboogie1]

oh well- perhaps in your town you do...and good on you for having teachers competent in both.

I am certainly aware and have seen plenty of dancing that moves from closed to open and back again, though the original post in all of this was what to do in tight quarters, and opening up is generally not an option in this case...which led to this sidetrack about close embrace.

And again, I err on the side of learning close embrace first. I dance with so many people that can't keep an embrace closed. They think you have to open to turn, or you have to open to do this or that. Honestly, I think people should learn how to do all the aspects of tango, including open, and including dancing on crowded or small floors without having to move your partner in to open becuase you haven't learned how to dance without it.

Where I come from, people learn almost nothing of how to actually connect to a partner. The local Argentine teacher appears to emphasize the "social" aspect at the expense of teaching fundamentals like connection...Don't care to lean close embrace?..no problem...you don't have to learn it...we'll just show you the no connection connection....backweighted? No problem...that's how everyone dances here....Like I said, I had to go to a different city to learn how to connect to people and learn close embrace.

It's too bad you can't get good teachers. I'm from Galveston but transplanted to So Cal long ago and we have many teachers to choose from. I agree with what you're saying about so many dancers not learning connections or floor craft. Even with all the instructors we have to choose from most of them teach the show stuff which screws up the social dances. Without a secure connection it's not tango.

[jantango]

Salon style is taught from close embrace. You learn close embrace and connection before you start to open your partner up. Watch any of the great dancers like Roberto Herrara you will see them start with a closed embrace they will walk closed and turn closed then they will do a figure that leads the lady into an open position then they return to the closed position again. This is advanced salon style.


Whether tango is taught with an embrace or separation between partners depends on the teacher. This is the case in Buenos Aires where there are more stage performers teaching than milongueros. Fancy figures often require separation to execute.

Roberto Herrera changes the embrace to suit the choreography. It's performance style where there are no rules.

How interesting that this thread originally posted in 2/2004 by bordertangoman with no responses has generated such interest.

[hbboogie1]

Whether tango is taught with an embrace or separation between partners depends on the teacher. This is the case in Buenos Aires where there are more stage performers teaching than milongueros. Fancy figures often require separation to execute.

Roberto Herrera changes the embrace to suit the choreography. It's performance style where there are no rules.

How interesting that this thread originally posted in 2/2004 by bordertangoman with no responses has generated such interest.Jan, I was taught salon style from Claudio and Veronica Rubio students of Orlando Paiva from Rosario. If you've ever seen Orlando dance you would understand it's not show tango it's salon or what he called Elegante and trust me there are rules. You are right that a lot of instructors in BsAs are teaching stage moves and I understand what you mean by no rules. Please watch Orlando on you tube dancing at Sunderland. You’ll notice everyone in the audience is fixed on Orlando and after the dance is over he not only recieves a standing ovation but he is rushed by a crowd of fans including many old molengerios. Many fine dancers respected him.

ORLANDO PAIVA & CRISTINA BENAVIDEZ on you tube

[Me]

a little bit of spice:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLMjJaOTf9I

I can think of one person in particular that this may help. He has a tendancy to race across the room for three solid minutes. Maybe if he were forced to practice more on the spot... forced to really work that making and taking of space, to practice economy of movement... worth a shot, anyway. :)

[Zoopsia59]

It comes down to the instructor and the student it's easy to dance bad in open or close embrace. It's very hard to learn to dance well no matter what the embrace. The concept of Salon is to dance both open and closed embrace which makes one skilled at both. Anyone learning only close embrace would have a hard time leading open embrace properly.

Gotta disagree with you on that one.. In my experience, it is easier for close embrace dancers to lead well in open, than for open embrace dancers to lead well in close.

I totally agree with the posters who talk about how easy it is to "cheat" when leading open... the 2 primary 'cheats' I see are overuse of the arms and looking down at the floor between you to figure out where to step or where the follower is. Neither of these things can occur in close. (unless the partner is so short that the leader can look down OVER her, but he is still looking behind her if her does that, not at the space he plans to step into)

On the other hand, leading in close requires leading techniques that can translate to open leading also.

The one problem I have found (certainly in myself at least) is that the follower can depend on the leader for balance more in close, and this may translate into problems when dancing a non-apilado style. The follower may have to learn how to give some resistance while staying on her own balance instead of letting the sharing of weight provide the resistance. I found this to be rather difficult at first. But the truth was that my technique for resistance in close wasn't really quite right either, it just wasn't as big an issue until I started doing more open fluid nuevo stuff.

[Zoopsia59]

I like this one

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRQtA2KABTo&feature=related

but not sure if it helps!

Actually this would be a great exercise for 2 reasons...

It would help train the leader not to lift his foot very far off the floor (the more he lifts, the more awkward the flipper is)

and, it would help him be more aware of the direction he is pointing his foot as he places it to step on it. I have noticed a fair number of leaders who (for example) try to step outside partner to walk forward, but in their fear of stepping on the follower, angle their foot AWAY from the follower, which then translates into the hip being rotated away, and great difficulty in rotating the chest and shoulders TOWARDS the follower to maintain the proper connection to her.

[Zoopsia59]

forward ochos can be quite awkward in close embrace (ie- one that you are trying to maintain), but so can back ochos. A lot of people here in the states have not learned non-dissociated back ochos. While those are pretty easy to do in close embrace, the fully dissociated ones can be awkward if a guy is trying to do close embrace and not roll it, especially when you have guys trying to lead fully dissociated ochos in place ( afull 180), rather than traveling and that's what constitutes "ocho" to many people no matter how much you try to show them a different possibility. And then there's the ladies who auto-dissociate if you have a lead who knows the difference and is attempting to control his torso rotation to keep them non-dissociated and they just do it anyway and assume the lead didn't have a clue how to lead an ocho. :rolleyes:


Whenever my partner leads crossed back ochos with me, invariably someone (usually someone who has been dancing for only a short time) will approach him afterwards and mention that if he would just open his embrace a little, it would allow me to do the ochos "properly". :rolleyes:

[hbboogie1]

Gotta disagree with you on that one.. In my experience, it is easier for close embrace dancers to lead well in open, than for open embrace dancers to lead well in close.

I totally agree with the posters who talk about how easy it is to "cheat" when leading open... the 2 primary 'cheats' I see are overuse of the arms and looking down at the floor between you to figure out where to step or where the follower is. Neither of these things can occur in close. (unless the partner is so short that the leader can look down OVER her, but he is still looking behind her if her does that, not at the space he plans to step into)

On the other hand, leading in close requires leading techniques that can translate to open leading also.

The one problem I have found (certainly in myself at least) is that the follower can depend on the leader for balance more in close, and this may translate into problems when dancing a non-apilado style. The follower may have to learn how to give some resistance while staying on her own balance instead of letting the sharing of weight provide the resistance. I found this to be rather difficult at first. But the truth was that my technique for resistance in close wasn't really quite right either, it just wasn't as big an issue until I started doing more open fluid nuevo stuff.


I find it funny how we all have different opinions on open / closed which is easier to learn or lead. I think it comes down to each individual person's own skill level and who we were taught by and what we were taught...the list goes on. I'm not saying any of us are right or wrong in our opinions it's just that we are all judging what others say by our own experience.
What makes it even harder to make one's point is we type it.
If you grab a friend at a milonga and try to make a point and even demonstrate it with your partner he'll not only disagree with you but he'll grab his partner and show you a better way in his opinion. I guess my point is it's hard to communicate your point on a forum. But I’ll keep trying because it’s fun.

PS check out ORLANDO PAIVA & CRISTINA BENAVIDEZ on you tube and see a true master of real salon style. This is not "Nuevo" and no one is looking down or out of balance. It's also not stage tango, it's pure beautiful salon style tango danced by the Master.

[bastet]

I can think of one person in particular that this may help. He has a tendancy to race across the room for three solid minutes. Maybe if he were forced to practice more on the spot... forced to really work that making and taking of space, to practice economy of movement... worth a shot, anyway. :)


i'm tellin' ya- try the hula hoop routine... :lol:

[Angel HI]

We actually had to go to an entirely different city in a different state to learn small space movement, and we are completely disregarded back here in our own town as having "too simple" a dance.
Where I come from, people learn almost nothing of how to actually connect to a partner. The local Argentine teacher appears to emphasize the "social" aspect at the expense of teaching fundamentals like connection...Don't care to lean close embrace?..no problem...you don't have to learn it...we'll just show you the no connection connection....backweighted? No problem...that's how everyone dances here....Like I said, I had to go to a different city to learn how to connect to people and learn close embrace.

Sad......:( :confused:

[Angel HI]

Actually this would be a great exercise for 2 reasons... It would help train the leader not to lift his foot very far off the floor (the more he lifts, the more awkward the flipper is)Good for fun, but in actuality helps nothing...adds unrealistic weight to the lead's foot, and forces the lady out of proper positioning in order to avoid the feet.
I find it funny how we all have different opinions on open / closed which is easier to learn or lead. I think it comes down to each individual person's own skill level and who we were taught by and what we were taught...the list goes on. I'm not saying any of us are right or wrong in our opinions it's just that we are all judging what others say by our own experience.
What makes it even harder to make one's point is we type it.Really nice post.

[bordertangoman]

i'm tellin' ya- try the hula hoop routine... :lol:

I'm goiong to try that one; does one use hula-hula music?

[bastet]

I'm goiong to try that one; does one use hula-hula music?

could be entertaining :banana: (need a smilie with a grass skirt)

[Dave Bailey]

We've been having a little debate in the London TangoBlogoSphere about floorcraft recently.

Here's an article:
http://www.jivetango.co.uk/UnlockingMilonga/ConspiracyTwo.html

Basically, I think we need to re-build the London AT culture, from the ground up - none of the London teachers or organisers will do it for us.

We'll start with the convoy...

[Ampster]

We've been having a little debate in the London TangoBlogoSphere about floorcraft recently.

Here's an article:
http://www.jivetango.co.uk/UnlockingMilonga/ConspiracyTwo.html

Basically, I think we need to re-build the London AT culture, from the ground up - none of the London teachers or organisers will do it for us.

We'll start with the convoy...

Good read. If I were in London, I'd join you... I'd even volunteer to be the aggressive rear guard.

[hbboogie1]

Good read. If I were in London, I'd join you... I'd even volunteer to be the aggressive rear guard.

I actually danced with a metal folding chair in my left hand holding it between us and a jumping spinning kicking couple. I just danced next to them and prevented them from any acrobatics until they got the point and settled down and moved into the line of dance. Got a standing ovation for my trouble. A few of us have also surrounded couples that were not respecting the floor, we just danced right on top of them preventing them from being able to jump and kick. This tactic works but it won't get you any friends.

[Dave Bailey]

A few of us have also surrounded couples that were not respecting the floor, we just danced right on top of them preventing them from being able to jump and kick.
I think this "anti-bodies fighting an infection" action is quite common in BsAs - I've read a few accounts of this. Unfortunately there's no such collected group consciousness or experience in London, so we'll have to develop these instincts from scratch.

I strongly suspect that a top-down approach is pointless - I very much doubt whether many of the venue organisers here will be interested - but I'll ask anyway, it can't hurt.

This tactic works but it won't get you any friends.
Actually, I think it's the opposite. Most people want to dance in harmony and comfort and safety. They just don't know how.

[ant]

[quote=Dave Bailey;700742I strongly suspect that a top-down approach is pointless - I very much doubt whether many of the venue organisers here will be interested - but I'll ask anyway, it can't hurt.
[/quote]

In my experience some of the organisers in London (one venue in Holborn in particular) are the among the worst culprits.

[kieronneedscake]

Well Dave, needless to say I've got your six if I'm ever in town. I am pleased to see such postive results from your early efforts!

With regard to Flash Harry and the Whirling Boleos, they don't want to be your friends anyway. Their primary goal is to impress. Burn those bridges! The very way they dance implies an obliviousness to their impact on others.

Oddly, some friends of mine who moved to London have got worse in terms of floorcraft. That said, barring the odd faux pas they have never hit me, so I guess they still rank in the upper percentile.

[Captain Jep]

Heh maybe we should have a convoy uniform - shoulder pads and knee protectors?

[Dave Bailey]

Heh maybe we should have a convoy uniform - shoulder pads and knee protectors?
Badges. That's the ticket.

No, I've got it - WRISTBANDS! :)

*David goes off thinking about marketing a "Tango Convoy" range of merchandising... *

[Dave Bailey]

In my experience some of the organisers in London (one venue in Holborn in particular) are the among the worst culprits.
I can't imagine who you're talking about. :grin:

But, the point is, as the saying goes, "If we can make it there, we can make it anywhere"...

[bordertangoman]

Holtzmann personal shields - as used in Dune
see 2.59 in this clip.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHSlpdpUFSk&feature=PlayList&p=3E7C1BDE093611F4&index=2

[Captain Jep]

Heh do we have to wear pimp coats as well ?!

(Didnt realise "Mr" Picard was in the Dune film - hmmm maybe worth watching after all... )

[Temza]

Girls, don't leave it entirely up to us. You can help too: ...

Dance with everything you've got. When we're stuck in traffic and running out of ideas we need inspiration and comfort. A confident partner who enjoys the music (as opposed to freaking out) will help us keep our game up until the floor begins to move again. Little embellishments and other unlead motions can help to keep the feeling of dance alive when we are unable to move.

could you clarify this please, Kieron? Do leaders actually like lots of little movements in the torso? What exactly are you talking about? I know a few leaders who consider this to be 'body noise'. Is is just a matter of how much and how strong she is doing this?

[kieronneedscake]

could you clarify this please, Kieron? Do leaders actually like lots of little movements in the torso? What exactly are you talking about? I know a few leaders who consider this to be 'body noise'. Is is just a matter of how much and how strong she is doing this?

Quite right, generally speaking a follower who does a lot of stuff creates "noise" and makes it difficult for us to stay connected to them.

However, consider the context of super-crowded floors. Suppose we are boxed in and almost unable to lead a proper step in any direction. If our partner "dances through the stillness" in whatever way she can, we don't feel quite so stupid waiting for a gap to open. I am suggesting one would only do this "helping out" in times of total movement crisis. A masterful leader will probably never need such help.

It's just like embellishments of the feet. You don't do stuff if you know it's going to interfere with the coming step, but there is no reason you can't take something small and simple, like a falteringly lead ocho and make it a little more interesting.

It is very possible to use every part of your body to dance without compromising connection, balance etc. These things come first.

[kieronneedscake]

Extra tip: Wear bracers or other fore-arm protection. Last night I caught a heel in the arm from some idiot doing a lift. Thankfully it was only a light contact.

[Zoopsia59]

Extra tip: Wear bracers or other fore-arm protection. Last night I caught a heel in the arm from some idiot doing a lift. Thankfully it was only a light contact.

A heel in the ARM??!!?! That just wrong on SO many levels.

[Zoopsia59]

I am suggesting one would only do this "helping out" in times of total movement crisis.

I would add a further caution that the follower only do this when the 'movement crisis' is due to the leader being UNABLE to move. Don't do much when the leader COULD move and isn't. When a leader who could move is staying still, I would guess its usually due to trying to think about what s/he's doing or going to do. Don't confuse the issue by making him figure out what YOU are doing. Keep whatever you do to fill the gap REALLY "quiet". Actually a reassuring soft redrape of the left arm might be nice in that context.

Also, if the leader CAN"T move,then whatever the follower does to "fill the gap" better be pretty damn small, since the whole reason the leader isn't moving is a lack of space!