the follower's thread...

[elisedance]

This is inspired by the u-tube videos that have been posted here and is all about followers. The shock for me was when I watched the lorraine dancing with Luca video:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=h0rhEOoXYCM&feature=related

and then immediately thereafter watched Alessia Betti with Mirko Gozzoli:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=YUeBaKJwK0w

This inspired me to look at a number of other famous women - but nothing yet has given such an incredible contrast. Loraine is light, floating, almost like a feather in the wind - the gentle, feminine, waifish elfin. However, Alessia is grounded, secure and has an air of flamenco about her - strong, accurate expressive and almost scary in her intensity.

For me Alessia is the ideal - I identified her as a role model as soon as I saw her for the first time. But I am VERY interested how other followers react to these - and indeed in any other contrasting styles and comments.

This discovery was such a thrill to me. Oddly, there is rather little discussion of ballroom dance style here and virtually none about the women.

[tangotime]

Good observation--
much of this i believe , is to do with the mans "approach "

Irvines were a classic e.g. of a very dominant male in the partnership, and yet, Bobbie was waif like . There are many e.g. of contrast .

With the Gleaves,I always felt that Janet was the " strength " in the duo .

[elisedance]

Good observation--
much of this i believe , is to do with the mans "approach "


Forgive me TT but that does sound rather sexist... The follower is not simply going to become like that because the man demands it :) There is no way that Alissia would be a waif just to dance with Lucas! the root must reflect a matching of dance styles - luca and the waif go naturally together while and likewise for Mirko and the dynamo.

All I need to do is find my Mirko..... :cool:

[just kidding DP, if you are reading - you are my Mirko :)]

[tangotime]

That was not my intention-- was only to describe, that sometimes there is a more dominant personality in the partnership --- thats reality . And--I did not say demand .

[elisedance]

That was not my intention-- was only to describe, that sometimes there is a more dominant personality in the partnership --- thats reality . And--I did not say demand .


No, that was my word and I am sure you did not mean it the way I used it, my error. Still, you did make it sound like the woman's expression was due to the man. I think the point of this thread is to recognize the ture partnership aspect of the art: that while the emotional statement must indeed start with the man's lead, the outcome is a synthesis of his and her expression.

It would indeed be fascinating to see the partners switched and how this would affect the outcome.

[tangotime]

It would indeed be fascinating to see the partners switched and how this would affect the outcome.

Bill and Bobbie frequently demonstrated that ( during F/T )

[Joe]

Sounds like the old "English Style" vs. "Italian Style" argument...

[elisedance]

Sounds like the old "English Style" vs. "Italian Style" argument...

How you mean, you's italian????

[elisedance]

Bill and Bobbie frequently demonstrated that ( during F/T )

Do you mean reverse role? Or swap with someone elses' partner as I was suggesting...

[tangotime]

They actually reversed dance "roles " whilst in motion !!- she leading-- bill following .

[danceronice]

I didn't say neither because I don't like either one, but there are things I like about both of them. Lorraine, I like the soft, fluid way she uses her arms especially. She's not at all loose, but her frame doesn't come across as rigid, whereas Alessia often does. On the other hand, Alessia's footwork I like better and when I skipped to some other videos in tango especially that really strong frame works.

Can I just take bits of both? Not that I'm ever going to be THAT good, but can I?

[elisedance]

They actually reversed dance "roles " whilst in motion !!- she leading-- bill following .

That must have been fun to watch. However, what I meant was that Lorraine would dance with Mirko and vice versa. One could then see to what extent the follower's style reflected the leader - and I'm willing to bet that they would look very much like they do with their current partners. Gee, it would be interesting though...

[and123]

The follower is not simply going to become like that because the man demands it :)

Well, there is some validity to this, at least my experience. I definitely find myself responding to whatever I feel from the leader, be it my partner or various Pros. They all seem to bring out something different in me, which is not to say that I won't do a little hijacking and express a different style or technique if the mood strikes me :cool:

[elisedance]

Well, there is some validity to this, at least my experience. I definitely find myself responding to whatever I feel from the leader, be it my partner or various Pros. They all seem to bring out something different in me, which is not to say that I won't do a little hijacking and express a different style or technique if the mood strikes me :cool:

You have to go back a bit to find my complete answer - the expression of the follow starts from the expression of the lead - but then it blends with her own artisitic flavor. From watching these women I think the latter is (can be) a much larger factor than i thought before..

[Angel HI]

I felt that the Lucas Waltz was the better. I am a proponent of the correct-but-not-forced topline that she has. I am sure that this, and her apparent attitude, allows her to also have a more beautiful head movement. Though, Alessia's feet 'might' be better at times, the forced back topline is so rigidly danced that it takes away from the overall appearance.

Relevant to the OP's post, as a lead, I more enjoy Lorraine's type of follow. MHO.

[Katarzyna]

I vote on Alessia.. never really liked her dancing untill watching a practice video once.. She is amasing.. In both of those couples the show is about the men IMO

[elisedance]

Kat really?? I only see the women in both - which is unusual as I normally look at the lead.

[Katarzyna]

I think its just MIrkos and Lukas dance style..

[Katarzyna]

I actually think their dance styles are so similar.. (the girls not the boys)... they both follow so much more than other girls at the top...

[Katarzyna]

you see the girls here because the white color stands out so much I think.. I am commenting here on more than just those videos.. I am basing it on many other videos I have seen of those 2 couples

[Katarzyna]

you see the girls here because the white color stands out so much I think.. I am commenting here on more than just those videos.. I am basing it on many other videos I have seen of those 2 couples

[elisedance]

Hmm. So is that dress advice too :)

I looked at a bunch of other videos focusing entirely on whether the women's dance styles came through rather than if they seemed to be just an appendage to the dancing of the men. I felt these two women had so much to add to the dancing of their partners - maybe this is one factor why they are both so successful.

Its also interesting how several people have commented on Alessia's somewhat angular posture as being a bit offputting whereas I find it very appealing. Its the clean lines that I love rather than the soft expression - but this is obviously a matter of taste. Still, there has to be some reason (in addition to the wonderful guy) why they have done so well...

[contracheck]

Bill and Bobbie frequently demonstrated that ( during F/T )

I was told by my standard coach, who had studied under Bobby Irvine and reached Blackpool Final several yrs ago, that the Irvines prefered the designation "participant" to "follower" because the word "follower" had the connotation of being "passive." According to my coach, the Irvines believd that if the female partner (usually known as the follower) became passive she was always late and this couple could not dance properly. The two partners are equal particiants and never a follower or a leader. Do I make sense?

[elisedance]

I hear you - but I don't understand how they did it. Did they choreograph everything? IMO my best dancing is when I AM a few fractions of a second behind my partner. This feels natural if my movements are to be an extension of his lead. Its also what Kat was commenting about with respect to the two followers (er, female participants!!) above.

[elisedance]

Hey, CC - don't forget to vote now!

[Angel HI]

...the Irvines prefered the designation "participant" to "follower". The two partners are equal particiants and never a follower or a leader.

One of my coaches, Irene Donaghey, often said, lead/er and respond/er for the same reason/s.

I hear you - but I don't understand how they did it.

TangoTime is probably better to speak to this than I, but Bill was a strong proponent of dancing in the stillness...that is finding the movement in the silence. This allows for much feeling and beautiful dancing to occur without the feet running off somewhere.

[elisedance]

Bill was a strong proponent of dancing in the stillness...that is finding the movement in the silence. This allows for much feeling and beautiful dancing to occur without the feet running off somewhere.

'movement in the silence' I'm not sure what it means but the words speak like poetry.... I have to find out.

TT where are you?

[Angel HI]

'movement in the silence' I'm not sure what it means but the words speak like poetry.... I have to find out.

TT where are you?

Yeah, TT, I know that we feel the same about this. I could use some help here. :)

Bill Irvine's worrds were "...monumental stillness...", initially speaking of the lack of rise/lower in the movement of tango, and later describing a part of dance when dances are stopped...the top of a rise in a lilt; the end of the rotation of an oversway; the edge of the extension of a contra-check; etc. He said that there is a time when monumental stillness is warranted, meaning not to be afraid to just stop and allow the dance to breathe. He went on to say that although all is stopped, that there must still be life in the body and the movement.

Basically, in its most generalistic sense, he was referring to keeping the movement alive during these brief pauses in progressive movment, and not just stopping lifelessly because there are no steps. When this was being explained to me, I said to the examiner, "Ah. It's the movement in the silence.", referring to something that I had learned wihle training to certify as a sign linugist (interpreter for the deaf). John (the examiner) liked it, and asked to use it. I said that he could...no charge. You may, also. :)

[elisedance]

"Ah. It's the movement in the silence."

So why is that not in your sig?? Huh??? Then I could add it to the signatures thread :)
Its an adage for peace....

[elisedance]

Question: when you go out on the comp floor do you think about anything specific? I don't mean lunch or makup :) but is there one aspect of dancing that you allow your mind to focus on?

I think I have erred by trying to think too much - get this or that right. My plan now is to focus on only one thing and then dance and the thing I am going to focus on I think is my centre, keeping that aligned with my partner.

[Angel HI]

So why is that not in your sig?? Huh???

Done.

Question: when you go out on the comp floor do you think about anything specific?

Mmm. Of course, it depends upon the dance. Yet, in general, when I am dancing smooth/standard, I usually visualize of home...not Paris...Maui. I often tell students that it is as if I am a disembodied head at Disneyland. I get on a ride called Fox, and it feels like.......; then, I get on a ride called Waltz, and it feels like...... The point is that I don't think...I feel. I am not the person operating the ride; rather, the person riding the ride. For latin, I really don't know. A woman at a workshop said of me once that I looked as if the music went in to my ears, and came out of my feet, with no obstruction in between. I guess that is ok.

[elisedance]

'the music went in to my ears, and came out of my feet, with no obstruction in between'

I can see that you are a font of sigs!! Nicely put. I think I can get close to that during practice or on a social dance floor - but not on the comp one yet. Its certainly a goal. The question is how does one get there? Imagining being on a ride is a nice idea - for that is very much what it is like going through motions without any real control over where they are directed.

[chica latina]

The question is how does one get there? Imagining being on a ride is a nice idea - for that is very much what it is like going through motions without any real control over where they are directed.

You practice the control/technique daily but the day of the comp (or week before) rely on muscle memory... and go with the motions that the music & partner create. That's what I'm trying to do in my style.

[elisedance]

CL: but what do you think about when you go out on the comp floor? Are you so relaxed naturally that its just plain fun - or do you have a way of focusing your energy without spoiling your following ability?

[elisedance]

Another interesting thing. Currently I've been working hard on dancing by follow and not by steps. By that I mean that I don't execute a step once I've recognized it but I dance through each movement in response to the lead. For example, if DP hesitates during a heel turn, thats what I do. Amazing how one 'discovers' new levels to this ballroom business! One thing that really helps is to dance with my eyes closed. Now I know that that is verboten on the comp floor but its my natural way to dance and the supreme way to dance by follow.

[chica latina]

Maybe it is very difficult to compare the different styles. Actually in my routines, I feel like I own my steps, but he changes my direction, dynamics, determines how long I hold some things....

Many people may not agree, but I was told once.... "lead&follow is just one aspect of dancing". You should be able to do everything in your own and know exactly directions, etc... then if he leads-- it would just be better. If she follows-- it would be better...
but if it doesnt happen it would still be ok.

[lcdancesport]

Shoot I meant to vote for no difference. I was just talking about this yesterday with my teacher. He said it's personal preference if you want to look more sharp or soft. I liked both videos equally I think it depends on the mood of the song. If the waltz were sad, I'd probably want to dance very light and soft.

[elisedance]

thats an interesting point - the music is not identical - but somehow I don't think that captures all the difference between these two amazing women dancers.

Maybe the poll should have been set up for leaders and followers - I wonder which the leaders would prefer to dance with :) Maybe I should try - but would they cooperate?

[Al Gisnered]

[quote=elisedance;512356]thats an interesting point - the music is not identical - but somehow I don't think that captures all the difference between these two amazing women dancers. [quote]

You're right, of course. And choreography isn't identical either. However, I would imagine that, at the level that both couples are dancing, both the music and the choreography are tools selected and agreed to by each partner in the couple to help them to create the particular dance they want to perform.

Personally, my vote goes to the Barrichis. Their performance seems to be more of a conversation about the music and choreography rather than a straightforward all-out performance. While incredibly masterful, I don't get that sense from watching the Gozzoli/Betti performance and it's a quality I admire.

I was intrigued by the brief discussion you had with Angel HI about "the movement in the silence". Wished you'd gone on a bit more. Curious, also - do either of you see evidence if it in the videos?

[Ithink]

I think it's very difficult to compare the two women's dancing because the men and how they are leading these women are so different. I would imagine that responding to Mirko's lead is totally different than responding to Luca's so in that sense I agree with TT: neither of these women is the dominant partner in the partnership and a lot of what they're doing comes directly from what their partners let/make them do. Luca appears to be the more conservative of the two leads (which is amazing to say considering Luca's impact on the dance scene) and therefore Lorraine appears to be the more conservative, "waify" flower. Whereas Mirko, is certainly the flower of that partnership and his lead is very active. To be Alessia, I think, is therefore much more challenging and thus impressive to me.

Also, I think Lorraine's softness is a bit too soft considering how many times her right shoulder popped in that video. While I agree that Alessia's frame a bit more rigid, it works better for me because it is undisturbed and the musicality comes through more clearly to me in her body. I also think Lorraine could never be as soft if she danced with Mirko which gets me back to my original point that these women's dancing is at least in part very much the consequence of the man who is leading them...

[elisedance]

On the whole I agree with you IT, however, as discussed above if the two leads switched partners to what extent do you think each woman would change her style? My opinion is very little - in which case their style is mostly their own but do you disagree?

Perhaps the most important factor is that the two couples chose each other - that is they selected a partner with a compatible style.

[Ithink]

Yes, exactly. I think that if they switched partners, both Alessia and Lorraine's dancing would HAVE to be modified to fit within the lead, yes, as each of the women would be allowed to do more/less than what her original partner allowed her to do through his lead.

[elisedance]

Sorry, I really think that each woman's style is very much her own. Lorraine would still look light and billowy and Alessia would still have that grounded angular more mature look - though obviously there would be changes.

Gee, I wonder if we could get them to try - it would be such a great experiment!

[Al Gisnered]

[quote=elisedance;512992]Sorry, I really think that each woman's style is very much her own. Lorraine would still look light and billowy and Alessia would still have that grounded angular more mature look - though obviously there would be changes.quote]

I have to agree with you. Each lady dances with a partner she has accepted. While the lead may allow her to dance in a style, she chose the lead so that she could dance in that style. It's quite symbiotic.

I cannot conceive that either couple would be nearly as successful as they have been if any of the partners danced with anything less than complete comittment to the dance they perform.

[elisedance]

Sorry, I really think that each woman's style is very much her own. Lorraine would still look light and billowy and Alessia would still have that grounded angular more mature look - though obviously there would be changes.

I have to agree with you. Each lady dances with a partner she has accepted. While the lead may allow her to dance in a style, she chose the lead so that she could dance in that style. It's quite symbiotic.

I cannot conceive that either couple would be nearly as successful as they have been if any of the partners danced with anything less than complete comittment to the dance they perform.


Theirin lies the magic of the partnerships. Whats interesting to me is how differently we see these styles - for a while there was a distinct preference for one over the other but now the numbers are even. Its amazing that both could be world champions - and quite affirming that the judges are looking for dance-beauty in whatever form it happens to come. A bit like juding a Renoir tops one day and a Picasso the next :)