Hitting a "wall"

[volleybgrl]

I started to seriously get into salsa about two months ago. I suppose you could call it a full blown addiction, but now I feel as if I'm hitting some sort of wall. :headwall: I'm getting really frustrated and can't seem to advance from where I'm at now. :x I'm a follower, so I was just hoping some of the more advanced dances of the forum could share their thoughts and own experiences on the road to becoming a true salsero/a. Any tips or hints that I can use to get around this obstacle?

[peachexploration]

Hi volleybgrl. I know the feeling. Can you share a little more about what started it or happened?

[borikensalsero]

My wall, your wall, our wall, food for thought, much of none, why me, why think, where am I going, I can’t get there, I just don’t get it, I’ll never get. My goals are not met! I’m stuck! Perspective, viewpoint, angle, side, the mind…

Why are you dancing Volleybrgl? why did you get into salsa? How good were you the first day of class? Where is your dancing now?

Volleybrgl, we are all doomed for one reason or another to hit some kind of wall, some just manage it differently. Usually built by our own points of view, or own thinking. We think so much of the goal that we forget that part of the goal is to be stuck. Love the goal, but as well, love every second of the journey. If it wasn’t for the downs, the satisfaction of achievement wouldn’t satisfy us to the extent it does.

Don’t look at the stuck, look at yourself, look at how salsa makes you feel, feel the horn lines blasting your body, forcing your heart beat to ever so constant, beat to a different force. Sit there close your eyes, and see the Volleybrgl who salsa absent world wasn’t the same as with salsa caressing your nights to endless fun.

Look at dancing skills not as means for breaking a wall, but challenges, whose very essence are as desirably loving as the thought of a broken wall. Look them not as a wall, but as steps along the journey that at this moment is no farther than now, will never be farther than now, and will never be older than now, the now can never use what you don’t have for to you this is the very place you need to be. Learn not from what it prevents but the doors that will open. I ask you to shift your thinking, for while you feel and think of wall, you will only see, be, and dance wall. Skills aren’t the wall that limits your dancing but the mind, for if skills were truly the means for breaking the wall, once you achieved them all you would be back at the same wall which few years back made your current dancing a world of disappointment. Hence the never-ending game of chasing your tail.

Never see Salsa as what you can be, but rather what you are. See it with the soul, not the mind. A simple cross body with lots of love, can be more fulfilling than a pretzel with zero love. Just like a simple kiss from love in the check can be more fulfilling that passionate kiss with zero love.

Love what your dancing is, what you are doing, the challenges it presents, and the action of just being there to love what you do, whether it is climbing the wall, stopping for a brief moment in front of the wall, crushing right through the wall, or merely no noticing the wall. There is never a wall, there is just an ego who thinks mastery of all crafts is the only mean for never seen a wall, for never been stuck, for overcoming the visibility of an invisible wall.

But if you can’t manage to change your thinking and love what you currently have despite of what others know, or do. Then we are back to step one saying that more practice and more practice will break a wall that is only present in the mind. For you are dancing and experiencing salsa as you need to experience it, not any faster, not any slower.

I can only speak of the mind for obstacles to a wall, for I truly don’t believe in a wall achieved by the lack of a dancing repertoire. I apologize in advance if I tackled something which brings you no help.

[peachexploration]

Boriken, you pretty much covered it as usual. Love the new avatar by the way. :D And, more encouraging words from SalsaRhythms
http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=2596
Volleybgrl, let us know how you're doing. :D

[Hank]

Are you taking private lessons? Private lessons in which the focus is dance fundamentals, and not patterns, are very helpful. Dance fundamentals include posture, frame, connection, following from the center, and latin motion. Dance fundamentals are very difficult to teach and learn in a group class setting because they require individualized feedback.

Videotaping yourself and then watching it can be very instructive. It's deceptively easy to hear instruction in a group class and believe that you already know it because the mind recognizes it, even though the body is not actually doing it, or not doing it consistently.

[borikensalsero]

Boriken, Love the new avatar by the way. :D

Thank you peach. :D :D

[volleybgrl]

Wow...thanks for gracing my post with your thoughts Boriken! It sounds beautiful, as always. Why am I dancing you ask? Because I love the way the body moves when dancing salsa. My own body, my partner's, other's, it doesn't matter...when done well, it's just the gracefulness that intrigues me. I liken it to poetry on the dance floor. Though I would never consider myself to be a scribe, I hope to be able to express my emotion and the feeling of the music through movement. I'll try to keep your words of wisdom in the front of my mind. :wink:

Hank: I'm taking group lessons right now, but they are very similar to privates because those who are practicing with the rest are also just warming up for the dance company practice that is immediately afterwards. I usually partner up with someone from the company, so there is a sense of "one on one" attention.

Peach: I read your post on Josie Negalia's perspective on levels of dancing http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=2526 and have begun to come up with my own:

So if dancers are at a particular level they are:
LEVEL 1: Looking incredibly stupid and not keeping time at all, though they are enthusiastic and emotional in their movement.
LEVEL 2: Keeping time and know a few movements that wouldn't make them extremely terrible to dance with in a club.
LEVEL 3: Learning more turning patterns and can dance to a whole song with only a handful of basics between turn patterns.
LEVEL 4: Becoming sophomoric and overly confident in the number of moves they know, but still need a lot of work on technique in order to execute them with grace and style.
LEVEL 5: Have realized that they still have A LOT of work to do (probably as a result of some embarassing incident) and are now "back to square one" in order to clean up their technique.
.
.
.

I don't quite know how large the scale will be, but I'm completely certain that I've currently just entered into my own "Level 5". Any additions to aid in the descriptiveness of my own level system would be greatly appreciated :D Peach, I'll keep you posted as to how I'm doing.

[Vince A]

We all hit that "wall," from time-to-time. Getting passed that is what makes us even better dancers. Sometimes it takes a weekend of laying off dance or the opposite - a weekend of lots of dancing. Sometimes it takes many weekends, or longer. I hit that wall over a year ago, and have not recovered yet, but I do dance many, many hours every week!

Always, always, always go back to level 1, or step one, or the basics. That wall won't be so hard the next time.

Think of it as juggling balls. The balls in the air are your up moments, or good times. The balls in your hand(s) are your down moments, or bad times. As in life, learning to juggle the good times with the bad times will make you stronger and keep you sane.

Hang in there, and think positive all the time . . .

[MapleLeaf Salsero]

I think Hank mentioned two very good points:

a) Private lessons
b) Videotaping yourself (much more helpful than what one may think)

I can only add asking more adavanced guys to dance with you at the clubs. You learn a lot of new things when dancing with a more advanced dancer. Try to pick up the small details. These are usually the most important.

[salsachinita]

Just re-visited this thread.

I think Hank mentioned two very good points:

a) Private lessons
b) Videotaping yourself (much more helpful than what one may think)

:!: Two things I really need to do :!: (need funds....... :cry: )

I can only add asking more adavanced guys to dance with you at the clubs. You learn a lot of new things when dancing with a more advanced dancer. Try to pick up the small details. These are usually the most important.

:!: Yes, yes & YEEESSS....... :!:

I am currently doing this (have done so since my 'return' two years ago) but other issues can stand in the way :roll: which I won't go into details now.

[salsachinita]

So if dancers are at a particular level they are:
LEVEL 1: Looking incredibly stupid and not keeping time at all, though they are enthusiastic and emotional in their movement.
LEVEL 2: Keeping time and know a few movements that wouldn't make them extremely terrible to dance with in a club.
LEVEL 3: Learning more turning patterns and can dance to a whole song with only a handful of basics between turn patterns.
LEVEL 4: Becoming sophomoric and overly confident in the number of moves they know, but still need a lot of work on technique in order to execute them with grace and style.
LEVEL 5: Have realized that they still have A LOT of work to do (probably as a result of some embarassing incident) and are now "back to square one" in order to clean up their technique.

How true.....!

I am on Level 5 as well.....doing my best to make that next breakthrough.

It's harder than it seems.......... :roll: !

[bordertangoman]

"View all problems as challenges.
Look upon negativities that arise as opportunities to learn and to grow.
Don't run from them, condemn yourself, or bury your burden in saintly silence.
You have a problem? Great.
More grist for the mill. Rejoice, dive in, and investigate."

Bhante Henepola Gunaratana, "Mindfulness in Plain English"

[danceguy]

Volleybgrl,

One of my martial arts teachers used to have a saying whenever anyone asked him "how do I improve, get better, climb the next hurdle etc??" in Tai Chi:

"More legs!"

That was his answer to everything...sounds silly, but there was much wisdom in that simple statement!

So all I can say to you is "more dancing!" :D

[Bronzestudent]

I have taken a short break from dance, like 2-5 weeks, when I've been in a situation like you've described. However, I've only done that 2 or 3 times, and have regretted it for the most part. So I don't recommend that.

What would little ol me recommend? Well, you've got some good advice here already, I would suggest trudging on. My dance teacher always tells new students that there is a learning curve for everybody, and it's always got pretty much the same shape. Like, you start off learning everything really fast, then you just stop. You get discouraged and either quit, or keep going. Well, soon enough you start progressing again. Maybe as you progress further, the times between the walls get further apart, and the walls easier to overcome. I think they do, but perhaps they are even more frustrating

There's a lot to be said for taking a short break and coming back fresh, but you also come back needing to be *******ed on steps and technique, so that works against you in a way.

[bordertangoman]

There's a lot to be said for taking a short break and coming back fresh, but you also come back needing to be *******ed on steps and technique, so that works against you in a way.

I have taken a short break and found that when I come back I saw things afresh, and if you forget a few things, you end up simplifying; so repertoire diminshes temporarily but technique and skill improve.

[Sarah]

I started to seriously get into salsa about two months ago. I suppose you could call it a full blown addiction, but now I feel as if I'm hitting some sort of wall. :headwall: I'm getting really frustrated and can't seem to advance from where I'm at now.

It's not a wall. It's a plateau in your learning curve. One of my teachers has told me his theory that it's during these plateaus that most of your learning takes place. Your muscle memory and your subconcious are gathering information every time you dance and eventually it will all come together and you will start to show a marked improvement. This might be accompanied by a concious realisation of what you can work on or it might not.

One word of warning - the end of a plateau will almost always be proceeded by a seeming decrease in ability (One of those `I can't get anything right' days (or on occasion weeks) that I'm sure most of us are familiar with ;)). It's during this phase that your body is integrating what its just realised and getting rid of some of your earlier habits that you used to need to compensate for your poor technique.

The only trick to facilitating this process is to be persistant. You don't have to work any harder, and you don't have to change what you are already doing, unless you want to. Carry on practicing, even when it seems like nothing is changing, relax, enjoy and have fun with what you can do and look forward to that night when you can't get anything to work right!

Cheers
Sarah (BTDT)

[vey]

"View all problems as challenges.
Look upon negativities that arise as opportunities to learn and to grow.
Don't run from them, condemn yourself, or bury your burden in saintly silence.
You have a problem? Great.
More grist for the mill. Rejoice, dive in, and investigate."

Bhante Henepola Gunaratana, "Mindfulness in Plain English"
What a great quote :!:
Thank you, bordertangoman, I needed it today.

[salsachinita]

It's not a wall. It's a plateau in your learning curve. One of my teachers has told me his theory that it's during these plateaus that most of your learning takes place. Your muscle memory and your subconcious are gathering information every time you dance and eventually it will all come together and you will start to show a marked improvement. This might be accompanied by a concious realisation of what you can work on or it might not.

One word of warning - the end of a plateau will almost always be proceeded by a seeming decrease in ability (One of those `I can't get anything right' days (or on occasion weeks) that I'm sure most of us are familiar with ;)). It's during this phase that your body is integrating what its just realised and getting rid of some of your earlier habits that you used to need to compensate for your poor technique.

:notworth: :notworth: :notworth: Thankyou, Sarah, for this timely reminder. I've read/heard these before.......but it's one thing to know & another to know :shock: !

I really needed to hear it right now.......and BELIEVE.

[Sarah]

:notworth: :notworth: :notworth: Thankyou, Sarah, for this timely reminder. I've read/heard these before.......but it's one thing to know & another to know :shock: !

I really needed to hear it right now.......and BELIEVE.

You're very welcome. I find that now I can recognise whats going on, I can relax and just enjoy the process of learning. Hey, this is supposed to be fun, isn't it?

Cheers
Sarah

[brujo]

Just take a class in something else. When I find that my dancing hasn't progressed that much, I take a look at what I am currently learning, put it on the back burner and focus on another aspect of the dance.

For example, when I hit a wall in learning turn patterns, I took an Afro-Cuban course to focus on my body awareness and isolation, and then when I came back to the patterns, they came much easier. When I was getting bored of partner work, took a shines workshop and dedicated myself to working on my footwork. There are a million other aspects you can explore : timing, musicality, styling, strong solo footwork, technique, attitude, playfulness, spins, connection, body awareness, improvisation, blah blah blah. When you don't really think you are advancing, why not do a total shift in focus and take a tango course or explore the other styles of salsa out there ?

A teacher of mine gave me this advice. Ask an advanced dancer to dance. Don't say ' I am only a beginner ', but say ' can I have one dance with you? ', this makes them aware that you won't bug them for more than that, so they can go back to their cliques or whatever. At the end of the dance, ask them for feedback. Most advanced dancers will unabashingly rip your dancing to pieces. This will allow you find areas to focus on and improve your dancing. There is no wall, it is just an illusion.

[MapleLeaf Salsero]

For example, when I hit a wall in learning turn patterns, I took an Afro-Cuban course to focus on my body awareness and isolation, and then when I came back to the patterns, they came much easier. When I was getting bored of partner work, took a shines workshop and dedicated myself to working on my footwork. There are a million other aspects you can explore : timing, musicality, styling, strong solo footwork, technique, attitude, playfulness, spins, connection, body awareness, improvisation, blah blah blah. When you don't really think you are advancing, why not do a total shift in focus and take a tango course or explore the other styles of salsa out there ?.

Very good advice Brujo!!


Most advanced dancers will unabashingly rip your dancing to pieces.

Very true. This is how you progress. Forget about your ego...

[peachexploration]

My wall, your wall, our wall, food for thought, much of none, why me, why think, where am I going, I can’t get there, I just don’t get it, I’ll never get. My goals are not met! I’m stuck! Perspective, viewpoint, angle, side, the mind…

Why are you dancing Volleybrgl? why did you get into salsa? How good were you the first day of class? Where is your dancing now?

Volleybrgl, we are all doomed for one reason or another to hit some kind of wall, some just manage it differently. Usually built by our own points of view, or own thinking. We think so much of the goal that we forget that part of the goal is to be stuck. Love the goal, but as well, love every second of the journey. If it wasn’t for the downs, the satisfaction of achievement wouldn’t satisfy us to the extent it does.

Don’t look at the stuck, look at yourself, look at how salsa makes you feel, feel the horn lines blasting your body, forcing your heart beat to ever so constant, beat to a different force. Sit there close your eyes, and see the Volleybrgl who salsa absent world wasn’t the same as with salsa caressing your nights to endless fun.

Look at dancing skills not as means for breaking a wall, but challenges, whose very essence are as desirably loving as the thought of a broken wall. Look them not as a wall, but as steps along the journey that at this moment is no farther than now, will never be farther than now, and will never be older than now, the now can never use what you don’t have for to you this is the very place you need to be. Learn not from what it prevents but the doors that will open. I ask you to shift your thinking, for while you feel and think of wall, you will only see, be, and dance wall. Skills aren’t the wall that limits your dancing but the mind, for if skills were truly the means for breaking the wall, once you achieved them all you would be back at the same wall which few years back made your current dancing a world of disappointment. Hence the never-ending game of chasing your tail.

Never see Salsa as what you can be, but rather what you are. See it with the soul, not the mind. A simple cross body with lots of love, can be more fulfilling than a pretzel with zero love. Just like a simple kiss from love in the check can be more fulfilling that passionate kiss with zero love.

Love what your dancing is, what you are doing, the challenges it presents, and the action of just being there to love what you do, whether it is climbing the wall, stopping for a brief moment in front of the wall, crushing right through the wall, or merely no noticing the wall. There is never a wall, there is just an ego who thinks mastery of all crafts is the only mean for never seen a wall, for never been stuck, for overcoming the visibility of an invisible wall.

But if you can’t manage to change your thinking and love what you currently have despite of what others know, or do. Then we are back to step one saying that more practice and more practice will break a wall that is only present in the mind. For you are dancing and experiencing salsa as you need to experience it, not any faster, not any slower.

I can only speak of the mind for obstacles to a wall, for I truly don’t believe in a wall achieved by the lack of a dancing repertoire. I apologize in advance if I tackled something which brings you no help.

Thank goodness for old threads. Nothing like an inspirational quote to get 'ya going again. Very nice Boriken.

[borikensalsero]

Thank you peach, thank you very much. :D :D

[San]

I join Peaches chorus: this was an inspiring read!

[Vince A]

Yep . . . thanks Peach for the reminder of his words! Even though I do not Salsa much, I have printed that one out . . . SO INSPIRING . . .

[borikensalsero]

Peach, San, Vince, thank you very much! Your very words inspire me!!!