% of practice danced off-routine

[Chris Stratton]

Question for my fellow competitors: what percentage of your practice time would you say is danced intentionally off-routine (ie, improvising, not simply making changes to avoid collisions)?

If you do a fair amount of this, why?

All through my syllabus years, I tended to actually compete without a fixed routine - though later on, I'd find that I was tending to make up something in the first round of a competition, refine it in the semi taking into account floor size, what other couples were doing, current issues and strengths, etc, and by the final it was in effect a bit of a temporary routine.

When I made the switch to the open divisions I switched to competing fixed routines (or at least intending to), but find I really like to keep a third to even a half of practice off-routine. Especially if there's tension in the dancing, I find I really like switching to improvisational choreography both to improve communication, and also because this brings some reflexes for choosing steps to facilitate a natural flow into play, vs. trying to force fit the planned choreography in order to "accomplish" it.

What are your feelings and habits?

[Terpsichorean Clod]

Maybe 95%? We never really got into the habit of doing the routines. We weren't given them until about a month ago after having been with our teachers for 5 months. Our practice time is almost always on an unsuitably small and square floor, and/or during the social. Besides, I've never had a routine before. Never competed before, either (not as a leader, anyway). I guess I don't really know how to use a routine, am afraid of using it and not knowing how/when to deviate from it, so end up not using it at all.

Do you keep an eye on your competitors during the round? Or do you have a friend give you feedback between rounds? How does your competitors' choreography and level of execution impact your choreography? Regarding "natural flow" have you been developing a sort of choreographical toolbox with musicality in mind?

[Chris Stratton]

Well, at a minimum you tend to notice if you are almost running into the same couple doing the same thing in multiple rounds.

[cornutt]

All through my syllabus years, I tended to actually compete without a fixed routine - though later on, I'd find that I was tending to make up something in the first round of a competition, refine it in the semi taking into account floor size, what other couples were doing, current issues and strengths, etc, and by the final it was in effect a bit of a temporary routine.

I've been in a grand total of one dance in which there was a prelim (and I didn't get a callback :rolleyes:), so I can't really say abuot multiple rounds. Like you, I don't dance fixed routines in syllabus, although my instructur is encouraging me to learn amalagations that I can use in the open heats. I do usually plot a strategy for the beginnings of the smooth dances, as far as where I'm going to start (long wall, corner, or short wall), and what my first several steps are going to be depending on the starting point. Right before a comp, I'll spend some time on my amalgamations and my different smooth openings.

Other than that, nearly all of my practice is off-routine. The only exception is if I'm learning choreo for a show routine.

[Chiron]

Most my lessons we dance on routine. My routines seem to be mainly a framework where I can work on my fundamentals. However I think I spend more time on routine in lessons than I do when I compete, since floor craft usually forces me to change something mid line. In a competition I've got a routine which flows nicely which I'll do if I have the room, if not I'm comfortable enough to change it on the fly.

[Might Wake Up]

I used to dance around 95% improvised either from flat out forgetting routines or just not liking them anymore and deciding to do my own. This quickly became a problem though since the execution of certain moves became ... not as good. Mainly it was the moves that require more subtle leading and some "tricks" that the lady must know in order for the move to execute well. Like without some knowledge that an outside spin or a spanish drag was coming up, the move would get done, just not well.

I'm now shifting to 100% routines since my open routines are pretty complex and hitting the shapes correctly is a big deal. They just don't look quite right unless the lady knows exactly what to do and can anticipate them.

[Chris Stratton]

I used to dance around 95% improvised either from flat out forgetting routines or just not liking them anymore and deciding to do my own. This quickly became a problem though since the execution of certain moves became ... not as good. Mainly it was the moves that require more subtle leading and some "tricks" that the lady must know in order for the move to execute well. Like without some knowledge that an outside spin or a spanish drag was coming up, the move would get done, just not well.

I certainly know what you mean, and have suffered that at times.

However, I think there's also a view that you should do these enough by plan to so that you both get a chance to practice them; but that this will hopefully then give you the skills to execute them fairly well without foreknowledge.

For example, outside spin - if you can figure out what it is the prompts her feet to close on the spot, and do that, and she can generally keep herself poised in a way to be able to respond to such nuances, then you should be able to lead a good one.

[Kitty]

If you are doing routine, you dont' have tho think about your next step or choreography at all. You already have a plan.
now you can concentrate on doing as best as you can within the plan. If you dont' follow a routine, it might cause you to hesitate before going to that next step and as a result you don't have as much time for executing each step perfectly.

My partner has been doing about 40% improvised practice mostly because of forgetting the routines, or just not thinking that following a routine is important. While it is not a problem when you are practicing a certain technique point on certain short pieces of choregraphy, it becomes a problem in competition when you realize you dont' know how to stick to the plan (and you just can't cope with all of the aspects of competition, and improvise at the same time).

[VTDancer]

I certainly know what you mean, and have suffered that at times.

However, I think there's also a view that you should do these enough by plan to so that you both get a chance to practice them; but that this will hopefully then give you the skills to execute them fairly well without foreknowledge.

For example, outside spin - if you can figure out what it is the prompts her feet to close on the spot, and do that, and she can generally keep herself poised in a way to be able to respond to such nuances, then you should be able to lead a good one.

At the moment, we practice our routines and technique, but spend very little practice time on improvising. Although, when we go social dancing I do try (while being very careful and polite) to practice improvising.

While we danced in syllabus levels, I never had a set routine; although I certainly did tend to rely on favorite patterns. Understanding preceeds and follows and developing the skill of changing plans on the fly was, in my opinion, one of the main benefits of spending time competing in syllabus levels. We are now dancing open routines that are basically set. This is still new for me and has presented a whole new challange. I am at the point where it is difficult for me to switch in and out of set routines. I could probably benefit from more practice doing this.

Our coaches advise that if they have to get off their routine, they will improvise until they got to a corner. At that point they come out of the corner back on their routine. They also contend that having a routine allows you to dance at 100%. I think that improvising, unless you are extreemly good, can tend to make you dance a bit more conservatively.

[fenixx]

I cant believe how many people compete without routines! To me, routines are necessary for competition. So, I would say that when I practice, we stick to our routines as best we can. Grant it, I am a latin dancer so, save samba and paso, I am not doing much traveling; but collisions are still inevitable so we do practice improvisation, yet I would say any practice at avoiding collisions are done during regular practice with lots of people on the floor in competition-like situations.

[Chris Stratton]

I cant believe how many people compete without routines! To me, routines are necessary for competition. So, I would say that when I practice, we stick to our routines as best we can. Grant it, I am a latin dancer so, save samba and paso, I am not doing much traveling; but collisions are still inevitable so we do practice improvisation, yet I would say any practice at avoiding collisions are done during regular practice with lots of people on the floor in competition-like situations.

Perhaps I am remembering wrong, but when I read your past comments I get the idea that your view of competition dancing has always been entirely divorced from social dancing.

In contrast, many from different backgrounds treated the two as fairly similar for the first year or so - dance with teammates in class using ideas presented but not as an exact routine, compete on Saturday with partner, dance with your cross town competition at the social the next weekend - all pretty much in the same way.

[fenixx]

Perhaps I am remembering wrong, but when I read your past comments I get the idea that your view of competition dancing has always been entirely divorced from social dancing.

In contrast, many from different backgrounds treated the two as fairly similar for the first year or so - dance with teammates in class using ideas presented but not as an exact routine, compete on Saturday with partner, dance with your cross town competition at the social the next weekend - all pretty much in the same way.

Yes, I view competition and social dancing as completely separate. My dancing began with competition, not social dancing, so I guess I never made such a transition. My only point is that the earlier you make the division the better - one way to make such a division is by moving to routines.

[Chris Stratton]

Yes, I view competition and social dancing as completely separate. My dancing began with competition, not social dancing, so I guess I never made such a transition. My only point is that the earlier you make the division the better - one way to make such a division is by moving to routines.

For intermediate purposes, there can be a lot of sense to that.

But I think it's kind of sad to imagine that in the long run the two can't come back together. Not that I think competing is like attending your average social, but in the end it seems to me that most who build lifelong skills as a competitor end up eventually regaining flexibility to the point where they can do outstanding improvised dancing with their peers, students, etc.

[Kitty]

in my opinion it has nothing to do with differences between social and competitive dancing.
In standard the directions for the follower are only relative to her partner's body, not to the routine. for the man a lot of things depend on position within the room, other couples and so on. so routine does not mean less or different connection, though for the follower it means more security.

a routine provides the following advantages (and many more):
- just go for next step everywhere - no hesitation. No need to think about choreography.
- some steps are impossible to lead (think side by side, or open quickstep, or chacha or tnago groups that are fast and where lady and man have different timing and are on different foot all the time.)
- helps with musicality as most routines are phrased. saying nothing about show or performace where the routine can be choreographed to the particular
- style and individuality of dancing and choreography has to be "pre-thought about". You probably won't come up with something great and original as you are dancing a competition. For example there are at least 5 ways to dance a left whisk. The partners have to agree which way they will use before the competition or performance. If they are of course at the level where theyknow and can make the difference.


practicing only the routine and ignoring the connection between partners does not work after reaching a certain level. ballroom is designed to require partners to use each other for dancing.

on the other hand, dancing without a routine does not have the same energy and focus. It has many disadvangtages.
I don't think this has anything to do with social vs competitive dancing.


My partenr and i are working on having more connection between partner and using each other more, and at the same time, working on sticking to routine more in practice to make it easier for ourselves in competition.


and special explanation for fenixx and other latin people: in latin you do quite a bit of "basic elements" work, such as rumba walks. which you mostly practice by yourself, and mostly off routine.

In standard such work is also done, but at higher levels of standard it is mostly done as a partnership, because in standard we use each other a lot more for EVERY step. for example, practicing a right or left turn in standard is pretty basic, equivalent probably to practicing the rumba walks, or open hip twist to fan amalgamation. such work can be viewed as practicing "without a routine", but it is really just basics.

[Kitty]

Not that I think competing is like attending your average social, but in the end it seems to me that most who build lifelong skills as a competitor end up eventually regaining flexibility to the point where they can do outstanding improvised dancing with their peers, students, etc.

i think fenixx is referring to competing and practicing off routine, which does have many disadvantages. that doesn't mean he is saying that he cannot improvise or dance with other people.

of course everyone, including fenixx and other competitors, can dance with other people well and at a high level without routine. But not PRACTICE or COMPETE without a routine.

[cornutt]

of course everyone, including fenixx and other competitors, can dance with other people well and at a high level without routine. But not PRACTICE or COMPETE without a routine.

Interesting set of comments. I seem to be in the minority here. I guess it's different for me because I started as a social dancer and I still spend a lot of time on the social floor, so I'm quite comfortable with improvising. Plus, I've had experience as a musician of improvising in a band context.

Right now I'm a syllabus dancer; I've done only a little open dancing. That makes a difference because a lot of the fancy open stuff that requires pre-coordination isn't legal in syllabus. I already recognize that as I move into more open dancing, that's going to have to change some. But... see, I have an inherent dislike of some of the stuff that I see in open, where you have partners who are apart for 30 seconds at a time and are essentially ignoring each other (or worse yet, they're both mugging to the judges) and just dancing their own steps. To me, that isn't partner dancing, and it gripes me that there are judges who will give high marks to couples who do that sort of thing.

One other thing, relating to Kitty's comment: I was under the impression, based on previous comments made here at DF, that high-level competitors seldom if ever dance socially. Am I wrong about that?

[Joe]

One other thing, relating to Kitty's comment: I was under the impression, based on previous comments made here at DF, that high-level competitors seldom if ever dance socially. Am I wrong about that?
They don't have time! :)

[Ithink]

Unless they are paid, like I've heard some are in NYC, I doubt high-level champ dancers do much social dancing...

[Chris Stratton]

Unless they are paid, like I've heard some are in NYC, I doubt high-level champ dancers do much social dancing...

Active ones, no. But those who were active at the top levels of few years ago but no longer compete form an important anchor to our social scene.

And more importantly, that the active ones can do it as hired partners demonstrates that the skill has been internalized - it's merely the time/energy/lack of interesting peer group that is missing.

Had they pursued purely routine based training & practice, they would not be able to do this. Instead, it's obvious that somewhere they learned to actually dance.

[Mostly Ballroom]

For intermediate purposes, there can be a lot of sense to that.

But I think it's kind of sad to imagine that in the long run the two can't come back together. Not that I think competing is like attending your average social, but in the end it seems to me that most who build lifelong skills as a competitor end up eventually regaining flexibility to the point where they can do outstanding improvised dancing with their peers, students, etc.
I am so not a competitor but I've danced with two pre-champ level women who attended social dances regularly. They were/are a dream to dance with. And follow incredibly. Even my far from perfect lead.

[fenixx]

I defintely go out dancing socially (not often at socials, but salsa, out with other dancers at clubs, the occasional general dance at a competition). The best free dancing is when you are coming up with choreography and just messing around.

I love dancing with someone, especially a partner or another high-level dancer, totally improvised... but I would never do it in a competition nor would I consider it part of my daily competitive practice. I think more useful is dancing choreography you never use (usually a syllabus amalgamation or some "basics with flare"). This will hone your ability to pick up choreography, really dance a routine from the get-go, and tests your improv skills if you do mess up.

[Josh]

I have an inherent dislike of some of the stuff that I see in open, where you have partners who are apart for 30 seconds at a time and are essentially ignoring each other (or worse yet, they're both mugging to the judges) and just dancing their own steps. To me, that isn't partner dancing, and it gripes me that there are judges who will give high marks to couples who do that sort of thing.

When you have to synchronize with your partner for 30 seconds with little physical contact and make your movements match exactly, then you'll see just how much partnership is really required, and you'll see that partnership isn't just about body contact--it transcends physical contact.

[latingal]

Had they pursued purely routine based training & practice, they would not be able to do this. Instead, it's obvious that somewhere they learned to actually dance.

Hey watch it bucko...you're saying that if you don't do lead and follow you don't "dance"? It may not be your cup of tea, but it is dancing....

[Mostly Ballroom]

Bucko? ;) A little too much Happy Days? :p

[Chris Stratton]

I defintely go out dancing socially (not often at socials, but salsa, out with other dancers at clubs, the occasional general dance at a competition). The best free dancing is when you are coming up with choreography and just messing around.

I love dancing with someone, especially a partner or another high-level dancer, totally improvised... but I would never do it in a competition nor would I consider it part of my daily competitive practice. I think more useful is dancing choreography you never use (usually a syllabus amalgamation or some "basics with flare"). This will hone your ability to pick up choreography, really dance a routine from the get-go, and tests your improv skills if you do mess up.

If it's not part of your practice, that's one thing. But why is there so much of a rigid gap between your competitive and your social dancing? Why do you exercise fluency in a 'foreign' language like salsa, but not in the one that you've been reciting in since childhood (ballroom latin?)

Hey watch it bucko...you're saying that if you don't do lead and follow you don't "dance"? It may not be your cup of tea, but it is dancing....

I'll admit I somewhat co-opted the word, but there's a differences between performing something and living it - a lot of routine focused practice is ultimately about executing or presenting the material, not about dancing it. For a style grounded in a lead and follow history, when you leave that spontineity out entirely, there's something missing.

[latingal]

I'll admit I somewhat co-opted the word, but there's a differences between performing something and living it - a lot of routine focused practice is ultimately about executing or presenting the material, not about dancing it.

To live the dancing when the steps are choreographed may be harder, but it is definitely possible...haven't you seen instances when people absolutely glow from the inside when they're dancing - even when they're dancing a "routine"?

[Chris Stratton]

so, have we gone from routine makes it easier to routine makes it harder ?

maybe it depends what the "it" quality that is being evaluated is - a routine probably does make competing easier, but it may make enjoying a dance (especially with a stranger) harder, since there's no consolation prize of something else that might better fit the situation of the moment

[latingal]

so, have we gone from routine makes it easier to routine makes it harder ?

*grin* guess like you said, it all depends on what "it" you're trying to acheive.

[Chris Stratton]

We are now dancing open routines that are basically set. This is still new for me and has presented a whole new challange. I am at the point where it is difficult for me to switch in and out of set routines. I could probably benefit from more practice doing this.

I had meant to comment on this earlier. One thing I've found myself doing from time to time is dancing the ideas of the routine, but with its phrases out of order, or spliced at logical alternative points. Sometimes this happens early on - dancing rounds when new material is still very new and we can't quite get through it, so I might either take a second stab at the hard wall, or use the two easy ones and skip the hard one, or something like that. Also later on, just mix and match when it's getting boring. Sometimes I also have shortened versions - running spin turn instead of spin/turning lock/running weave that I'll substitute for various reasons.

I guess in practice the size of the pieces may add "or in the middle" to your teacher's getting back on routine at the corners idea.

[Josh]

a lot of routine focused practice is ultimately about executing or presenting the material, not about dancing it.

Maybe for you...

[cornutt]

When you have to synchronize with your partner for 30 seconds with little physical contact and make your movements match exactly, then you'll see just how much partnership is really required,

That's assuming they were in sync... :D:doh:

[liz]

I would have to say that 75% of my time with my pro is on routine. I practice basics alone. It is always good to revisit closed material so that you don't forget about important things that you aren't using at the time.