Semi-final rounds comp strategies?

[elisedance]

Our level (AM Standard gold) is particularly popular in Ontario and we almost inevitably have a semifinal. The most we have had in one is 13 couples and in three of the four dances (F,W,T) they typically put all the couples on the floor at the same time, splitting us only for QS. It is quite impossible to do routines in such a crowd so you have to wing it. We lead-follow pretty well but in such a crowd there is always a few that don't raising the possibility of a collision.

My question is to what extent should one just do basics and how hard should one try to put in higher level steps or step sequences? I have heard both - that 'the judges only look at you for a few seconds so just look great' and that 'sure do basics but also put in flash or you will look ordinary'.

What strategy does everyone here recommend? :confused:

[fascination]

we keep it simple

[rjcbear]

we keep it simple

Fasc,

Care to explain a little more please?

[fascination]

well we are big movers...and when the floor is split or very very crowded we tend to take our difficult material out and focus more on position...we also tendo to just drop a wall of what we normally do and hinge our corners differently to survive...but clearly since we no longer have our movement to show some of our advantage...we like to concentrate on position rather than choreo

[Cal]

Ditto - both of my pros would follow that same strategy.

And, for what it's worth - one standard coach I know is a stickler for footwork, and says that as a judge, s/he sometimes can't see feet in a crowded semi, so recalls are based on topline, poise and movement.

[rjcbear]

Fasc thank you I understand now.

But here is my little problem I am 6'-2" and female pro is 6'-0" so naturally will take big steps and small ones makes look unsure of our movements.

So if I am understanding you correctly you will concentrate in executing the step technically more so that moving down the LOD.

Thank you Fasc

[elisedance]

But here is my little problem I am 6'-2"

problem??? <<<drool>>> :the panting dog emoticon: :cool:
(5'10")

[elisedance]

Your approach makes sense fasc - and by hinging corners do you mean using the extremes? I suppose thats one place where one can execute a more interesting step since corner ones often do not move as much - and there is the advantage that you are out of the crowd.

I'm not sure if a crowded floor favors the tall or the short or neither. The tall stand out of course, but they need more room to execute. Likewise the short may be hidden but they can do more in the available space. I suppose the tall may benefit a bit from being able to see open spaces easier, but don't have enough experience to tell.

I would love to hear also from one of the adjudicators on here. TT, AH, anyone else?? Do you expect to see more than basics on a crowded (pre-final) floor? And what happens in a crowded final - as can occur with, as fasc raised, a split floor?

[fascination]

Fasc thank you I understand now.

But here is my little problem I am 6'-2" and female pro is 6'-0" so naturally will take big steps and small ones makes look unsure of our movements.

So if I am understanding you correctly you will concentrate in executing the step technically more so that moving down the LOD.

Thank you Fasc
yea it is a nightmare even for us short folks...but what I really am saying is that we make the choreo simpler to focus on our position and shape since our movement is so badly hampered...a big topline is a big topline even with small steps, especially with small steps, the ability to keep it and have balance while movement is impaired is, IMO, no small feat

[rjcbear]

problem??? <<<drool>>> :the panting dog emoticon: :cool:
(5'10")

Elise,

<<<blushing now>>> thank you. the rest of it will be place in the flirt thread.

[rjcbear]

yea it is a nightmare even for us short folks...but what I really am saying is that we make the choreo simpler to focus on you position and shape since our movement is so badly hampered...a big topline is a big topline even with small steps and the ability to keep it and have balance while movement is impaired is, IMO, no small feat

Fasc,

That really make sense thank for making it clear for me.

[fascination]

Fasc,

That really make sense thank for making it clear for me.
lol...freaking miracle since the grammar and spelling was so poor...had to edit myself

[rjcbear]

Don't worry about it I promise I will not tell you English teacher. But if Eleise is around you will be in trouble.

[elisedance]

luckily I haven't seen Eleise here for a while - if ever..
now ED, she's been described as the word police...

[rjcbear]

luckily I haven't seen Eleise here for a while - if ever..
now ED, she's been described as the word police...


ED,

I need a new spell checker soon very soon...

[cornutt]

But here is my little problem I am 6'-2" and female pro is 6'-0" so naturally will take big steps and small ones makes look unsure of our movements.

Sigh... Yeah, I've danced with Miss Legs... couldn't have been much fun for her. :headwall: Tell her I said hi.


So if I am understanding you correctly you will concentrate in executing the step technically more so that moving down the LOD.


I kind of think what she is saying is that she's already moving quite a bit, so on a crowded floor there's no point in trying to push it harder. Let the things that you already do well, and without having to put a lot of thought into it, work for you. Your life is going to be complicated enough with 13 couples on the floor. A few other random thoughts, from my experience of dancing on very crowded social floors (25+ couples):

Remember what I said on an earlier thread about diamond vs. pincushion patterns in waltz? Try observing some of the couples that you dance against regularly and see what their tendency is. At the comps we usually go to, most of the couples I'm familiar with are diamonders.

Have some steps worked out where you can start in a different place on the floor, to buy yourself some time. My observation is that 90% of couples want to start at the beginning of the long wall nearest the judges, and there's always a massive traffic jam on that first wall. :shock: I can buy myself space to do something fancy by moving down to the end of the wall, and starting with a right turn followed by a short-wall amalgamation, and I'll have some free space before I catch up to the crowd on the next long wall.

Do one of two good bits and then just dance basics (and your get-out-of-trouble floorcraft steps as needed) for the rest of the dance. You wonder about how much the judges see: if there's 13 couples and they need to observe every one of them in a 60-second heat... well, you do the math. Consistently good technique probably wins out, on average, against flashy but inconsistent technique.

Oh, and don't do anything that backs up against LOD. :D

[rjcbear]

Cornutt,

I will tell miss legs you said Hi. We are practicing tomorrow.

Your idea of starting on the shorter side of the floor is a great idea when you have the entire floor for the heat. The problem comes when you have 1/2 of the floor and 13 or more couples ithe same heat.

I must a great with you that a lot of the couples will try to start on the side of the judges at one point in a Waltz heat all the couples were bunch in front of us moving as a single group. Floorcraft can be very helpful but if the other dancers don't have any floorcarft at all you can be in trouble, I got step-on my heel twice by the same guy in during a Tango heat.

Judges with that number of couples they will not spent to much time on every couple. IHO if a couple collides with an other one they will get the judges attention rather fast and I think the judges will keep an eye on both couples. But that is just my opinion.

LOD what is that in a crowded dance floor...

[elisedance]

Starting on the short side is our current strategy and this worked out particularly well for the last comp as all the judges (there were 7) stood either along the short side (that was also the judges bench side - twas an odd room) or very close to it. So, in effect the short side was the long side.

One of our coaches feels we should try to be seen right out of the gate - and I am a bit concerned that the judges will check couples from the top rather than wait to see all of them. Thus, with 13 couples they look till they see a good one and repeat until all the check marks are gone. In that case they may not even see every couple. Or do they really scan the entire field first and then start selecting the best? If the former, there may be a hazzard to starting short (on a regular dance floor set up) as you will come infront of the judges later and all the goodies may be gone :)

[Joe]

With a full semifinal each judge has only 7.5 seconds to look at you. And that's if they start looking at specific couples right away, rather than an overall look at the entire field. They don't have time to look at footwork, choreography, etc. All they have time to look at is your presentation (position, frame, demeanor).

[rjcbear]

Last year I went to a seminar named "What Judges are looking for" the presenter was a very well known adjudicator. What he said was in very crowded heats will judge you from the minute you walk on the floor to the minute you walk off the floor. Like Joe said about (position, frame, demeanor) is very important and they will see if the couple is keeping the correct timing if they are not they will automatically place the couple last. In pre-bronze they will look for technique more than presentation.

[elisedance]

With a full semifinal each judge has only 7.5 seconds to look at you. And that's if they start looking at specific couples right away, rather than an overall look at the entire field. They don't have time to look at footwork, choreography, etc. All they have time to look at is your presentation (position, frame, demeanor).

What I was worried about is that they may not get to look at you at all if you do not catch their attention! Thus, where and how you start becomes crucially important.

[elisedance]

Last year I went to a seminar named "What Judges are looking for" the presenter was a very well known adjudicator. What he said was in very crowded heats will judge you from the minute you walk on the floor to the minute you walk off the floor. Like Joe said about (position, frame, demeanor) is very important and they will see if the couple is keeping the correct timing if they are not they will automatically place the couple last. In pre-bronze they will look for technique more than presentation.

Points well made - we have worked on our entry but our exits are still a bit rough. DP tends to not give me enough time to spin out and last time omitted a curtsy/bow because we ended facing the judges - he thought that should be reserved only for the audience.

[latingal]

PDP tends to not give me enough time to spin out and last time omitted a curtsy/bow because we ended facing the judges - he thought that should be reserved only for the audience.

Actually, ed I think I remember a judge saying something to this effect in a workshop on what judges are looking for in a competition. I distinctly remember one judge saying he did not want competitors to "play to them" or acknowledge them with a curtsey/bow.

[BasicsFirst]

In contrast to that, I know another judge who told a couple we know at a future lesson... "you lost my mark the minute you ignored me". A different coach all together has always suggested that sometimes you have to "go and get the mark" i.e. play the judge, but not for long. In case it matters, I'm in Latin context here.

[reb]

Actually, ed I think I remember a judge saying something to this effect in a workshop on what judges are looking for in a competition. I distinctly remember one judge saying he did not want competitors to "play to them" or acknowledge them with a curtsey/bow.

The more experienced/advanced leads are generally more aware of how to avoid rolling the lady out so she/they aren't nose-to-nose with a clump of judges, awkwardly missing the audience.
:doh:

Probably as awkward is when one partner faces one direction and the other another direction.

Another thing for the leads is to practice with the lady until he's aware of what foot she's on . . .

[elisedance]

we worked on the post-dance presentation a bit today - hopefully to the point where we will not goof up and he won't knock my head off with the spin out!

I'm sitting in the lobby of the hotel (why am I thinking of Roger Whittaker :)) having had the Last Supper before tomorrows comp (Falls Premiere). Its not a big field though - just 6 or 7 couples per comp so this thread will be of limited use this time (but the next one, the Classique, should be enourmous). Better try to get some sleep....

[cornutt]

In contrast to that, I know another judge who told a couple we know at a future lesson... "you lost my mark the minute you ignored me". A different coach all together has always suggested that sometimes you have to "go and get the mark" i.e. play the judge, but not for long. In case it matters, I'm in Latin context here.

Hmm. Of the few large comps I've been to, generally judges are stationed around the floor instead of all being at one table. It hardly seems possible to acknowledge them all in this case. Also, it's been my observation that usually the runner is yanking the score sheet out of their hands the moment the music stops.

[rjcbear]

Actually, ed I think I remember a judge saying something to this effect in a workshop on what judges are looking for in a competition. I distinctly remember one judge saying he did not want competitors to "play to them" or acknowledge them with a curtsey/bow.

Lg,

A judge said the same thing but he follow his statement by saying don't do picture lines in front of me I will just walk away and look at the rest of the field.

or acknowledge them with a curtsey/bow.

I the music stops and you are near the judge just go get and do it. IMO I am presenting my partner and thanking the audience and in my eyes the judges are part of the audience as well the only difference is they have the mark sheets.

[rjcbear]

The more experienced/advanced leads are generally more aware of how to avoid rolling the lady out so she/they aren't nose-to-nose with a clump of judges, awkwardly missing the audience.
:doh:

Probably as awkward is when one partner faces one direction and the other another direction.

Another thing for the leads is to practice with the lady until he's aware of what foot she's on . . .

This is one great post and I have see Reb and his pro partner and he will always finish facing the audience.

I think we need to take some lesson from Reb on how to finish a dance.

[JohnEdwardFarmer]

Small advice - don't make the judges move. To me this seems obvious but I see so
many competitors, in their enthusiasm to get the judges attention, dance up so close to
the judges that the judges have to take steps backwards themselves. If they happen be against a railing, tables or other obstacles at the edge of the dance floor...

I know several judges who either will not mark people or will mark people down (if its the final) for this behavior.

In short - don't dance into the judges personal space. You risk annoying them for no
real purpose and worst case scenario you'll collide with them. I've seen that too,
although more rarely.

[thomasy]

My 2 cents...

When dancing with 12 couples or so on the same floor...keep moving, keep your frame and poise. Per my coach, semi-final is the most brutal round and you can smell blood! Everyone is going for it. If you got blocked by another couple(s), find a way to get out. Or you will disappear from the judges' radar!

Also, to get judges' attention, it may help to start ahead of other couples, especially in Waltz and Q-step!

But most importantly, have fun and don't panic! :)

[elisedance]

Hi thomasy - are you an active competitor? And if so, in stnadard or smooth?

[Josh]

Also, to get judges' attention, it may help to start ahead of other couples, especially in Waltz and Q-step!

I know some couples who do this, and logically it makes sense, but overall I bet that if you did an exit poll of some kind, you'd find that it doesn't really make much of a difference in who makes it to the next round (or wins it).

One of the best strategies to get to a final is to be a consistently strong competitor, so that the judges will assume the best of you to begin with. This could be true in a micro view of things, as in the case of having danced well in earlier rounds in freestyles, where you've been on the floor for 15 heats or so, and the judges know what to expect in the championships or scholarships an hour or two later, OR it could be as macro a view as having placed well in the last 10 comps you were in, so you're expected to be consistent in this comp as well. If you consistently dance well, or are a teacher who creates consistently good dancers, you'll be given the benefit of the doubt, and will have a significant advantage in making the finals, just on merits of your good dancing reputation.

[Nik]

Just keep a good frame and smile.

[thomasy]

Hi thomasy - are you an active competitor? And if so, in stnadard or smooth?


Yes...Active in standard! Love it! :)

[Laura]

Yes...Active in standard! Love it! :)
Welcome to DF -- nice to see you :)

[thomasy]

I know some couples who do this, and logically it makes sense, but overall I bet that if you did an exit poll of some kind, you'd find that it doesn't really make much of a difference in who makes it to the next round (or wins it).

One of the best strategies to get to a final is to be a consistently strong competitor, so that the judges will assume the best of you to begin with. This could be true in a micro view of things, as in the case of having danced well in earlier rounds in freestyles, where you've been on the floor for 15 heats or so, and the judges know what to expect in the championships or scholarships an hour or two later, OR it could be as macro a view as having placed well in the last 10 comps you were in, so you're expected to be consistent in this comp as well. If you consistently dance well, or are a teacher who creates consistently good dancers, you'll be given the benefit of the doubt, and will have a significant advantage in making the finals, just on merits of your good dancing reputation.

Agree. The "early start" strategy has no guarantee on getting to the next round or winning. But in some cases, it may help to provide the marginal benefit especially dancing against couples who are very close to your level! :)

But at the of the day, it still requires consistency throughout the rounds as well as comps.

[thomasy]

Thanks Laura!! :)

[elisedance]

Just keep a good frame and smile.

I think that just about sums it up Nik! Maybe add, look confident, easy going and execute basic steps perfectly? Of course the :evil: is in the last bit... :)

[elisedance]

Yes...Active in standard! Love it! :) Its question time :) So AM or pro/am, and what level? And to answer my own questions - I used to do pro/am but now have an AM partner and we compete in Standard at Gold (AM and Senior I).

[thomasy]

Its question time :) So AM or pro/am, and what level?

Amateur and compete in Standard Prechamp level.

[elisedance]

I'm next up at the Classique de Quebec in two weeks are you planning for a comp soon?

[reb]

Just keep a good frame and smile.
Good.

Short and sweet.