View Full Version : What do do with a student who resists learning?
saludas
01-28-2008, 11:47 AM
I know this is a potentially volatile topic, but here is the dilemma - the student complains that the teacher is teaching too much.
The student complains (a lot, btw, lol) that she'd rather 'just dance' - but at the level she is at and the ability level she presents, she needs a lot of help in getting her movement better.
When new choreography is presented, she resists the work to learn movement (in this case, standard) and says that she just wants to dance it - even tho she has no clue how to do her part. Efforts to make things work (like fallaway position or even promenade) get complaints that 'it's never been shown to her that way before' (tho I'm proud of the fact that she is now seeing the correct way, thanks to her teacher) and that 'I'll just learn it by dancing with you'. AS IF.
The problem is, I understand that perhaps this student just wants to 'dance around' for the hour, but at the same time, she presents herself as serious about doing more advanced work. It took 5 months to learn simple simple Silver choreography that she told me she already knew (even tho she feels she is ready for Gold) that was very basic and is danced awfully, and yet she thinks it's wonderful.
I guess the obvious thing is to 'just dance around' without correcting, smiling and 'having fun', but I would like opinions on how to deal with this. I am afraid that one day she will realize that she is not progressing. I also fear the day she wants to compete, and finds herself outclassed. Am I wrong to be concerned about this? Is the duty of a teacher to progress the student? Or to simply follow the whim of the day?
Video a lesson, and have her watch. Watching my vidoes always sends me begging for more instruction on technique.
Having said that, I suppose if her rose-colored glasses are really, really thick, she still might think that she's doing just fine the way things are.
fascination
01-28-2008, 12:17 PM
I think it is important to clarify what her goals are...if she has notions of competing, I think the candid approach is neccessary...you might lose her as a student but the alternative is having to dance with a student who wouldn't let you teach her...if she won't let you teach her and you continue to "teach" her anyhow and utimately compete with her, only you can decide whether or not you want to put students on the floor who have no interest in improving...she clearly needs a reality check if she wants to improve...if she doesn't, fine...but at least if you are candid, she will have no one but herself to blame if she gets dusted on the comp floor for wanting to be lazy on her lesson
Chris Stratton
01-28-2008, 12:28 PM
The student complains (a lot, btw, lol) that she'd rather 'just dance' - but at the level she is at and the ability level she presents, she needs a lot of help in getting her movement better.
It may be that she wants a dance host rather than a dance teacher. If that's not the kind of work you want to do (and you can afford not to do it) then explain that.
fascination
01-28-2008, 12:30 PM
yes...and if you can't afford not to ...give her her whim and don't push competing unless you can separate your self esteem from her skill level
saludas
01-28-2008, 12:48 PM
yes...and if you can't afford not to ...give her her whim and don't push competing unless you can separate your self esteem from her skill level
All good comments, but she fancies herself as a competitor and wants to compete again soon.
The 'self esteem' part is excellent advice - on HER part; and yes, that seems to be a problem - she tells everyone how she takes 'great' lessons from the teacher - and gets compliments when she 'improves' from social partners - but tells the studio manager that she's unhappy that she doesn't get to 'dance enough' during her lessons - and gets very jealous when she sees a lesson by the teacher with another student who is having 'more fun' than they are. Or when the other student comes in and requests a warmup, when she didn't in her lesson - and then announces to the teacher and other student "On my next lesson I want to start with a warmup dance too" and stomps out.
Ironically, I used to take privates with a guy that would have LOVED teaching her, and I wanted someone like you, hehe!
Point being, sometimes certain students and instructors just aren't the best match, with neither being at fault. Different strokes for different folks. If neither of you is willing to adjust to the wants of the other, then it may be best for her to find the teacher that gives what she wants.
and123
01-28-2008, 01:03 PM
Sounds like a spoiled brat to me. If she thinks dancing around with her teacher and not picking things apart and analyzing technique is going to improve her dancing ability, she needs a strong dose of reality. Is there a "role model" you can point out? Someone who doesn't futz around during lessons, practices hard, and does well at comps?
saludas
01-28-2008, 01:11 PM
Sounds like a spoiled brat to me. If she thinks dancing around with her teacher and not picking things apart and analyzing technique is going to improve her dancing ability, she needs a strong dose of reality. Is there a "role model" you can point out? Someone who doesn't futz around during lessons, practices hard, and does well at comps?
Yeah - me LOL. Realistically, I agree this is a 'bratz' type. the problem is how to deal with the fact that even tho I always point out people she admires that work hard - tell her how other women practice and what they expect - she thinks she is somehow different. She says "I need to just dance - that's how I learn".
The 'slap her upside the head' solution seems like the most real at this moment LOL but when she talks to the studio manager she paints a dark picture. The studio manager, BTW, altho she is trying to make the student happy, complains constantly as well that the student never has a good thing to say about anything, so you would think that this 'red flag' would make the studio manager take her comments lightly, but the studio manager sometimes cannot make the connection between the constant whiner and the reality of her real levels and needs (the student's, that is).
Keep the comments coming - and thanx.
Is there any possibility that you're teaching her verbally/visually when she really learns best physically?
jennyisdancing
01-28-2008, 01:30 PM
All good comments, but she fancies herself as a competitor and wants to compete again soon.
Wait a minute - you're saying she has competed previously?
How did she do?
If she scored well with her 'just dance' approach, then I could see how she believes such an approach would continue to work for her. Then it might be a challenge to convince her to change her ways.
If she did poorly, then maybe that would be a good starting point to explain how proper training and practice can improve her future results.
saludas
01-28-2008, 01:33 PM
Is there any possibility that you're teaching her verbally/visually when she really learns best physically?
Good point, tho I have never seen her improve thru the osmosis technique. She is unable to keep her frame - how will dancing with me improve that? And this is an honest real question - how do I do it?
saludas
01-28-2008, 01:37 PM
Wait a minute - you're saying she has competed previously?
How did she do?
If she scored well with her 'just dance' approach, then I could see how she believes such an approach would continue to work for her. Then it might be a challenge to convince her to change her ways.
If she did poorly, then maybe that would be a good starting point to explain how proper training and practice can improve her future results.
She used to have another teacher for years - she come to me complaining how the other teacher was physically uncomfortable to dance with - and I am not.
We competed since then, but were unopposed.
She was mediocre back then. She has improved a whole lot since then - but I think there is a disconnect between how she is dancing now and how she danced, for instance, a year ago, mainly because she cannot see how the improvements came - in this case through technique coaching and instruction.
Good point, tho I have never seen her improve thru the osmosis technique.
I think there's three separate parts to your last comment, so I've split it, accordingly.
Someone who is a teacher may be able to answer this better, but, it seems to me that you might get outside the partnership, and have her do the actual dancing with someone else. Then, when there's something you want to correct, physically correct her - raise her elbows, close her grasp, turn her head, etc. Possibly even running around the room, while providing assistance keeping her correct.
I imagine this would be like being the training wheels on a bike. I also imagine that this would be very difficult :)
She is unable to keep her frame - how will dancing with me improve that?
If my guess is near the mark, it may be that she simply needs to get used to carrying her frame properly. The studio where I go has a piece of very lightweight pipe, bent to hold one's arms in the proper position. If you wear it long enough, you get used to having your frame correct.
And this is an honest real question - how do I do it?
Good question :) I rather hope someone who is a teacher chimes in, as they may be able to answer this far better than I.
I have one other thought: you might simply ask her, "Why don't you maintain your frame?", and, when she drops her frame, you might ask, "why did you drop your frame?" You might be able to get her to self-evaluate. If you're lucky, she'll really be able to tell you what's going on.
Peaches
01-28-2008, 02:57 PM
Good point, tho I have never seen her improve thru the osmosis technique. She is unable to keep her frame - how will dancing with me improve that? And this is an honest real question - how do I do it?Not that I've particularly gotten anywhere with ballroom, but speaking from experience about how I learn...
I tend to be more of a physical learner. Verbal explanations are helpful, but only once I've gotten to a certain point. I suppose someone critical could say I spend a lot of time "just dancing around" in my lessons, but I need that--it's not a passive activity (although I'm always having fun), it's constant evaluation of what I'm feeling within myself and from my teacher.
As for how to teach someone about, say, frame if they can't hold it... What works for me is just an instantaneous commment. Just my teacher saying "frame" (or, in my case, "arm" or "shoulder" or "core" or "tension") is enough to remind me about it, and then I can fix it. Often, because it's a gradual progression from being OK to not being OK, I don't feel that things aren't right anymore. And, often, I've gotten focused on some other bit of technique. Just a simple reminder as it's happening lets me know that things aren't good, reminds me to keep thinking about it, and in fixing it as I'm dancing I can feel that difference between bad and good, which is very useful.
What I didn't find useful (and it took me and my teacher a while to figure this out) is to go through a sequence of something and for him to point out the things that went wrong, and then do it again and try to fix the stuff. Too much for my brain and my body to handle all at once, and I didn't have the benefit of being able to compare the way "wrong" and "right" felt.
Just my $0.02.
Peaches
01-28-2008, 03:11 PM
Just thinking a bit more about what has worked to "motivate" me...
One thing that works wonders is to get my feet stepped on, both/either literally and/or figuratively. Telling me to reach back with my steps is one thing...getting my toes stepped on without mercy because I didn't reach back sticks in my mind so much better.
It sounds kind of harsh, but it's sort of a version of letting me stand or fall on my own technique...training wheels off...no more compensating. Whenever that's been done to/for me, it hurts (sometimes a lot) the first time, but there's very definite feedback as to things going right or wrong. And there's a very nice sense of accomplishment and empowerment to being told that there will be no more compensation for my mistakes on some piece of techniqe where I should know better.
jennyisdancing
01-28-2008, 03:58 PM
Just thinking a bit more about what has worked to "motivate" me...
One thing that works wonders is to get my feet stepped on, both/either literally and/or figuratively. Telling me to reach back with my steps is one thing...getting my toes stepped on without mercy because I didn't reach back sticks in my mind so much better.
It sounds kind of harsh, but it's sort of a version of letting me stand or fall on my own technique...training wheels off...no more compensating. Whenever that's been done to/for me, it hurts (sometimes a lot) the first time, but there's very definite feedback as to things going right or wrong. And there's a very nice sense of accomplishment and empowerment to being told that there will be no more compensation for my mistakes on some piece of techniqe where I should know better.
To each her own, Peaches. I took a tango class with a teacher who purposely stepped on my toes to try to make a point. Frankly it just rattled me and did not teach me a thing. I do agree that a partner shouldn't just compensate; both people have to know their parts. I just don't think the approach needs to be harsh, necessarily. For me personally, it would work well if shown in a comparison, i.e. the teacher shows the right and wrong ways, one after the other, and clearly explains what kinds of techniques make the difference.
But of course I'm talking about learning from the beginning. If you're talking about someone who has already been taught the techniques over and over, and still doesn't do it, then I could see using some drastic measures as you described.
waltzgirl
01-28-2008, 04:08 PM
My pro has a student like that. She's not quite so much of a brat :p, but she doesn't want to work on technique either. From what I've gathered, he told her that, in his professional opinon, that is what she needed to do to improve, that in his experience "just dancing" would not lead to the improvements necessary to do well in competition, but it was up to her whether she wanted to utilize his professional expertise. I think they've reached some kind of detente where she does some work on technique (but not enough, she never does well in comps).
Maybe you could sit down with her to talk about goals. Pick a comp a few months away, tell her three or four things she will need to work on to be ready for the comp, and ask her how she wants to work on those. You might talk about different learning styles and perhaps come up with some kind of compromise, like a plan for lessons that includes a warm-up dance, ten minutes of technique, then the rest "just dancing" with consistent focus on the point of technique for that lesson. Hopefully, at some point, you could increase the technique portion, but it sounds like you'd better start small with her.
If you have a comp as a goal, you can then make the hypothetical judges the bad guy, as in "if you drop your frame like that, the judges will notice and it will hurt your marks. We don't want to let that happen." That way, you aren't the one "criticizing" her; you're the one on her side to help her wow the judges. That might help her to accept your teaching more easily.
You can also put more responsibility on her to participate in the learning process. Ask her, "what would help you remember to keep your frame up?" If she can't think of anything, you can give her a choice, "would it help more if I said 'frame' or if I reminded you by raising my elbow for a second?" If she makes the choice, then when you correct her, you are doing what she wants.
She also sounds like someone who needs lots and lots of praise. It's probably hard to praise someone who is such a pain and who isn't improving. But there is a learning theory called successive approximation, where you reward even tiny steps toward the goal. So you say something like, "You kept up your frame for the first three bars of that dance and it was very good then. Let's try again and see if you can keep it up for longer this time." Then if she keeps it up for four bars, you praise her for that. If you ask her to focus on one technical point each time you "just dance," point out and praise her for whatever she accomplishes on that point.
Basically, it seems like your goal for now is really not teaching her to dance, but training her to learn *how* to learn dance. She may be doing gold steps, but it sounds like she's pre-bronze in her ability to study dance. So you may have to make the connections between technique and improvement for her, things like "you're really doing better with X. It looks like the work we did on that last week is really paying off."
She sounds like quite a challenge! Good luck!
fascination
01-28-2008, 04:14 PM
All good comments, but she fancies herself as a competitor and wants to compete again soon.well then sooner or later, if she isn't practicing things of substance, reality is going to catch up with her delusions of granduer...all I really meant is; if you are the one who has to dance with her, can you take how that makes you feel?
The 'self esteem' part is excellent advice - on HER part; and yes, that seems to be a problem - she tells everyone how she takes 'great' lessons from the teacher - and gets compliments when she 'improves' from social partners - but tells the studio manager that she's unhappy that she doesn't get to 'dance enough' during her lessons - and gets very jealous when she sees a lesson by the teacher with another student who is having 'more fun' than they are. Or when the other student comes in and requests a warmup, when she didn't in her lesson - and then announces to the teacher and other student "On my next lesson I want to start with a warmup dance too" and stomps out.this stuff just makes me wonder if she' really be happy with anyone...and in that case...i would probably just teach the way I intended and wish her well if she didn't respect that...if I could afford to do so
fascination
01-28-2008, 04:17 PM
Yeah - me LOL. Realistically, I agree this is a 'bratz' type. the problem is how to deal with the fact that even tho I always point out people she admires that work hard - tell her how other women practice and what they expect - she thinks she is somehow different. She says "I need to just dance - that's how I learn".
The 'slap her upside the head' solution seems like the most real at this moment LOL but when she talks to the studio manager she paints a dark picture. The studio manager, BTW, altho she is trying to make the student happy, complains constantly as well that the student never has a good thing to say about anything, so you would think that this 'red flag' would make the studio manager take her comments lightly, but the studio manager sometimes cannot make the connection between the constant whiner and the reality of her real levels and needs (the student's, that is).
Keep the comments coming - and thanx.
I am reminded of the saying...one who argues with a fool makes two...sometimes the best thing to do with folks is to give them exactly what they want:cool:
fascination
01-28-2008, 04:25 PM
I too like to learn physically, however that requires that one be able to articulate the sorts of things you are trying to effect physically...I think perhaps a female coach is best for this sort of thing...a coach who can touch, without all sorts of issues, certain spots in order to show certain things...I know of one who would be excellent if you want me to pm...and such a person might do a better job of corroborating your point as well as meeting her percieved need...but I still think it comes down to a deeper issue...she either believes in your priorities and process or doesn't...certainly she can begin to develop her own path but that is done by practice alone and understanding and feeling her dancing alone...I am thoroughly suspect about the merits of engaging in a debate with her on this issue....ie "these are my priorities and this is how I teach them...I will try to be sensitive to how you learn but you are also going to have to stretch a bit and get on board with this or I am afraid your progress will be greatly slowed now that you are no longer new"
Larinda McRaven
01-28-2008, 04:32 PM
I am reminded of the saying...one who argues with a fool makes two...sometimes the best thing to do with folks is to give them exactly what they want:cool:
Yes, a direct walk to the door.... a refund... and a handshake.
elisedance
01-28-2008, 04:33 PM
great way to put it akt - I was trying to put that in words! Some people are analytical and love to get things spelled out in detail, others seem to learn better by example. I realize this is not a solution since ultimately she has to learn the details but it may be the route to success. Perhaps you could start with a complete routine and try to dance it with her - do the whole thing and then, as suggested above, video what you are doing so that she can compare that with what she thinks she is doing. Maybe you could compare it with the same routine danced with a highly trained partner. If she still can't see a difference and gets motivated to find out and fix why then I would say its a lost cause!
I think first one has to quit assuming she's totally in the wrong. She may be incorrect in what she thinks she needs, but whatever it is that she needs, she seems to not be getting that from you. That doesn't necessarily make her a "brat," while she well may be. But if you can't adapt to her learning style, whatever that may be, then that doesn't necessarily make her a pain, just means you aren't the teacher for her.
It's not all about making her see that you're right. It's about you seeing that what she needs may not be what you want to do. And determining if you can make the adjustment.
Like I said, I used to take from a teacher that would have LOVED to just dance around and throw in the occasional bit of advice in a totally non-confrontational manner. He makes a good living with women that want that. I didn't want that. And I'm sure my complaints came off as being a "brat." But I get along just fine in a non-bratty manner with my current teacher. (Although our side teacher, I get a bit bratty with, because we don't quite jive either, but he's got brilliant communication going on with husband, so it still works for us.) With the old instructor, it took finally having both of us coming to the realization that what I wanted to get and what he wanted to give weren't ever going to jive. He wasn't right or wrong, I wasn't right or wrong, just weren't right for each other.
As long as you're intent on pushing your will on her, things won't work. It's going to require finding a middle ground that can keep you both happy, if that's possible.
All good comments, but she fancies herself as a competitor and wants to compete again soon.
Great thread.
Are there other 'good' competitors at her level and just above who she can compare herself against to see whether she makes better or worse relative progress over time?
Is there a particular thing she refuses to practice which could be used as an example (like frame?).
saludas
01-28-2008, 09:55 PM
Great thread.
Are there other 'good' competitors at her level and just above who she can compare herself against to see whether she makes better or worse relative progress over time?
Is there a particular thing she refuses to practice which could be used as an example (like frame?).
It's difficult because it's very black and white - if she has a problem with something (heel pull for instance) she complains that too much time is being taken - but of course it is her problem, not doing it correctly. The problems are those of a low level silver student - frame, footwork, etc
jwlinson
01-28-2008, 11:14 PM
Just jumping in with my .02...
I have a very strong gripe with people who think there's nothing to dancing but "just dancing." At first, that's all most people want. Steps, and only steps, just to have something to do at parties. Some it suits just fine. If that's how they want to spend their money, so be it.
Then there are those of us who will watch others dance and say "hey, we know that step.. wow theirs looks so much better..." And lo and behold we discover technique. We started with one teacher who was the "beginner teacher." She taught steps, and most were happy. We wanted technique. That teacher had a personal problem and had to leave, so we got the owners as our new teachers. After a few months of "getting to know each other" as far as teaching/learning methods go, we started to revisit all the steps we knew in all our dances, break them back down again, and fill in all the missing technical aspects we were missing. We didn't want to "just dance." We wanted to do it right. Now most of our lessons center around technique.
Just because someone knows gold steps does not make them a gold dancer.
Personally I'd "just dance" with this lady, and when she finds she's not improving as she should, or wonders why a certain step is so hard, or why she's doing so poorly at comps, then tell her "well, that's because you're missing some important technique that will correct that, but you just wanted to dance."
I like the recording idea too. Let her compare her recorded dancing to actual top performers and see what she thinks. "Why doesn't mine look like that?" "Technique, Little Miss."
Larinda McRaven
01-29-2008, 12:28 AM
and gets compliments when she 'improves' from social partners - but tells the studio manager that she's unhappy that she doesn't get to 'dance enough' during her lessons - and gets very jealous when she sees a lesson by the teacher with another student who is having 'more fun' than they are. Or when the other student comes in and requests a warmup, when she didn't in her lesson - and then announces to the teacher and other student "On my next lesson I want to start with a warmup dance too" and stomps out.
This is the part that I would take offense with.
But honestly if she wants to spend her lessons being swung around that is her perogative. If she wants to compete without a great deal of knowledge or technique that is her perogative too. Who are you to sell her something she does not want?
So the question is "are you the right teacher for her". I think not - if you want to spend her time and money on things she does not enjoy doing. Your job as a teacher is not to force people into your way of doing things. So you get to make a choice, you either change your mode of operation, or agree to disagree on the lessons, or end the situation.
I think if her attitude is as stinky as you made it out to be above, then the situation is really not working and there is no reason to continue it. She is unhappy, you are unhappy, and if she is getting pissy in public, stomping around, complaining to others in the studio I believe it is time to cut the cord and end it. You will replace her as a student, she will replace you as a teacher and hopefully the next match will be better.
Once it is over you will be amazed how the drama drops off and it isn't even a blip on your radar screen.
tangotime
01-29-2008, 02:42 AM
You can " lead ? " a Fox to water-- but you cant make it " trot " :rolleyes:
I agree with what Larinda said.
fascination
01-29-2008, 06:42 AM
me too...pro has a certain way of teaching...and he cares about it ...he beleives in it...while he isn't rolling in students and living a lavish existance he simply isn't willing to sacrifice what it is that he believes in...he tells his new students this from the beginning...and they know that it isn't going to be fun...which now saves him alot of those scenarios....( well okay, I'm still sort of pouty and pissy sometimes...but I always know he's right and I always keep trying)...anyhow, now that he has made this decision...people know what they are in for and know very quickly whether of not they are a match....he just isn't going to dance with someone who doesn't care about their balance and their frame...I can appreciate that others may feel that they have to take a student who doesn't want to work, but in that case there really is no point in bothering arguing...you have made that deal with the devil and will have to suck it up...
samina
01-29-2008, 07:49 AM
IMO, it's the prerogative of every teacher to define what & how they want to teach based on what they feel they have to offer. there is no need to put up with behaviour like this if it contradicts an instructor's basic premise.
it could be that a conversation with the student might result in an attitude adjustment, but it doesn't sound like a student-teacher match-in-heaven.
( well okay, I'm still sort of pouty and pissy sometimes...but I always know he's right and I always keep trying)
Been there, done that, bought more than a few t-shirts...
you have made that deal with the devil and will have to suck it up...
'Tis true.
saludas
01-29-2008, 07:58 AM
So here's how the lesson went last night: the student came in complaining of low energy and aching muscles. And when told that her wish for more dancing was to be granted, she then complained that she didn't have the strength, so could the lesson be less dancing!
I think that her 'rose colored glasses' have a selective vision LOL. I am wondering from this forum, tho, does anyone else teach students that act out, that play studio manager against teacher, and what is done to handle this? Maybe what is being said is not honest by the student (at least with the student) or that the discussion of what goes on in the lesson is merely a 'cry for help'?
I also thought about bipolar or narcissistic behavior as the reason as well for this.
Larinda McRaven
01-29-2008, 08:01 AM
Keeping in mind that the only thing she is doing wrong is throwing tantrums.
If she doesn't want to work on a heel turn she doesn't have to. The idea of what makes her happy is REALLY the only thing that matters. Yet if her behavior is publiclly UNACCEPTABLE then that is the problem.
It is okay for a student to disagree with the intruction they recieve.
saludas
01-29-2008, 08:06 AM
Keeping in mind that the only thing she is doing wrong is throwing tantrums.
If she doesn't want to work on a heel turn she doesn't have to. The idea of what makes her happy is REALLY the only thing that matters. Yet if her behavior is publiclly UNACCEPTABLE then that is the problem.
It is okay for a student to disagree with the intruction they recieve.
Is the student allowed to decide how the lesson is taught, or what to selectively not learn? If the student does not want to learn a natural turn, how do you proceed?
Larinda McRaven
01-29-2008, 08:12 AM
Why the assumption that SHE has a problem? BI-polar? Just because she is whiney? So what she doesn't know how to "follow through" with do or die training? Really honestly how many people do? Just because you might doesn't make it the norm. Welcome to the land of being a teacher.
Now you kow how every 10th grade English teacher feels. She is simply being who she is. If you don't like it you are free not to take her money.
For the FIRST time ever inmy career I told someone that they need not re-enroll or come back, just last week. The scenario was PERFECTLY IDENTICAL. Really Saludas my jaw dropped when I read your post I thought someone was playing a trick on me.
He says he wants to get good. He says he wants to compete, bought tails, has moderate talent... yet when all we do is bicker about the best way to get there. He is so completely difficult and craggy I have had two world champion coaches refuse to ever work with him agian.
Last week when he quite simply refused to move, stormed off the floor twice, shouted on the lesson in a full studio, told me I am wrong, told me I did not tell him accurately what I wanted him to do, exagerrated movements to the point of being disgusting, that was the final straw. I cancelled his upcoming competition. And we ended the lesson.
After several phone calls of being told I am not giving him what he wants I said "Fine, I hear what you are saying. However if THIS TANTRUM BEHAVIOR continues I would prefer you to not come back."
I did not accuse him of being a bad student. I did not tell him he is wrong in what he wants. I simply said BAD BEHHAVIOR IS NOT TOLERATED in my studio. If you are going to act like that you are not welcome here. Go act out somewhere else.
That is all you really can tell them is wrong, publicly unacceptable behavior.
Larinda McRaven
01-29-2008, 08:14 AM
Is the student allowed to decide how the lesson is taught, or what to selectively not learn?
Yes, if they go to a restaruant and order a hamburger yet you serve them fish...
If the student does not want to learn a natural turn, how do you proceed?
Welcome to the world of teaching baby!
So you get to make a choice, you either change your mode of operation, or agree to disagree on the lessons, or end the situation.
I would suggest structure and documentation. If her goal is competition or exhibition, give her that and pick a date. Then draw up some lesson plans. Structure them. First ten minutes warm-up. Thirty minutes technique or routine. Last ten minutes 'just dancing.' Document that crap. If she whines about it, point to the piece of paper and say, "See this? We worked this last week." If she whines to the studio manager, you'll have something in hand to show the studio manager.
Ideally each student should have a folder anyway. An easy way to track progress, set goals, keep up with routines, etc.
Hope that helps. She sounds like a total headcase but a manageable one if you don't let her stay in control.
saludas
01-29-2008, 08:28 AM
I would suggest structure and documentation. If her goal is competition or exhibition, give her that and pick a date. Then draw up some lesson plans. Structure them. First ten minutes warm-up. Thirty minutes technique or routine. Last ten minutes 'just dancing.' Document that crap. If she whines about it, point to the piece of paper and say, "See this? We worked this last week." If she whines to the studio manager, you'll have something in hand to show the studio manager.
Ideally each student should have a folder anyway. An easy way to track progress, set goals, keep up with routines, etc.
Hope that helps. She sounds like a total headcase but a manageable one if you don't let her stay in control.
These are good ideas, for sure.
What bothers me most about the situation is that my quality of teaching is not in question - the student acknowledges the progress - the student even notes that the improvements came since she started lessoning - but she seems to be using the studio as a stage or lecturn for her neediness.
I am happy to provide a fun lesson, an un-serious lesson, an easy lesson (most of what I do is this kind of lessoning, and I have a lot of students) but the issue of 'lesson control' seems to be the student's focus.
Typical from this student: "I want to dance Gold; I want to learn a Natural Twist Turn (!); I want it to come after figure xxx, and I don't want to learn how to do it (or thinks she knows it already); just dance it with me". What do I do specifically? Any thoughts?
fascination
01-29-2008, 08:59 AM
Is the student allowed to decide how the lesson is taught, or what to selectively not learn? If the student does not want to learn a natural turn, how do you proceed?
this is an interesting question...and I have only my own expeirence to go on, but I do find your student's behavior mystifying in that I have always made the assumption that pro knows better than I what we need to work on...it is a very rare occasion that I will come in with an agenda...and I think I have demonstrated that it isn't as though I don't have opinions....but I TRUST him...he in turn respects me enough that if I go to him and say "this really isn't working for me in your language, maybe we should get some coaching on it" or "hey, I've been thinking and I really think I would be well served by spending more time practicing my weave from promenade"...he weighs that and we discuss it and generally he pays me the respect of appreciating that I also have a sense of what I need to progress....so, what I keep seeing here is a breakdown in fundamental communication skills...as for her coming in tired and achy...imo, if a student is going to do that then they are going to have to suck it up a bit and the pro is going to have to relent a bit...anyone who has overdone it knows how futile a lesson under those circumstances can be....I doubt that it is as simple as a control issue or narcissism or bi-polar....this just changed her usual preference for dancing it b/c she was tired...people are complex...their general rule isn't their universal rule...and finally saludas, I actually have to say that I really admire your sensitivity on this...in general you seem to be far more strident and self-assured...I respect this side of you...hope that doesn't sound backhanded
elisedance
01-29-2008, 09:12 AM
Basically I think you have three choices that depend on your circumstances (need for this student, tollerance, studio pressures etc etc)
1. Dump. Decide, as Larinda suggested, that this is not for you and politely tell the student you can no longer teach her - passing her on to someone who may be more compatible (probably a less serious competition coach).
2. Lay down the law. Tell the student that if they want to reach goal x they will have to trust you as the professional that knows best how they should get there. [Of course this strategy could very well end up with 1. above]
3. Go with the flow. Tell her how you would prefer to teach her but then proceed exactly as she want to be taught. Pocket the lesson money knowing that you are providing exactly the service that your customer wants to buy. This may also end up in 1 when the student gets dissatisfied that you have not reached her goals and looks for someone (read any one except herself) to blame for that failing. By the way, that is why you have to start with telling her how you would prefer to teach her so that at that point you can point out that the teaching method was her and not your choice. On the other hand, this may result in a dedicated student and may also inspire you to devise new ways to achieve real learning within the confines of her demands. It may not be worth it but, as said, it depends on your circumstances.
IMO: most important - don't complain about your student to anyone at the studio. Not only may it get back to her but its also raises confidentiality issues and could impact how you are seen as a professional.
saludas
01-29-2008, 09:18 AM
IMO: most important - don't complain about your student to anyone at the studio. Not only may it get back to her but its also raises confidentiality issues and could impact how you are seen as a professional.
Yes of course.
FatBaldGuy60
01-30-2008, 09:27 AM
Tell her goodbye. She has no understanding of what you are trying to do, and she sounds like a pain in the butt.
This is exactly why I could never be a teacher. I have no patience for fools, and if you have described her behavior correctly, she is a fool.
She seems to be a prime example of the 80/20 rule. 80% of your problems come from 20% of your people.
FBG
These are good ideas, for sure.
What bothers me most about the situation is that my quality of teaching is not in question - the student acknowledges the progress - the student even notes that the improvements came since she started lessoning - but she seems to be using the studio as a stage or lecturn for her neediness.
I have been told time and time again that all people come to ballroom for different reasons, and most of these reasons have absolutely nothing to do with dance. Some don't find it and immediately leave - others stay and try to use dance as a means to an end different from excelling in dance. When these different goals seem somewhat parallel to dance goals (ie improved self-esteem due to winning at competition, weight loss due to hard training) then everybody is happy. It is when these alternative goals become counterproductive to the learning process that things become problematic. It sounds like this person with jealousy issues and temper flares is become problematic.
I've seen instructors sink to the level of their students and it is not pretty. Nobody likes to watch an instructor bark orders at their student like an angry parent to a sulky child. In my mind it serves to only perpetuate the problems of the student because it creates a very unhealthy relationship. From what you’ve posted so far you’ve avoided any type of personal conflict with the student and I think that’s great.
nucat78
01-30-2008, 11:02 AM
Yes, a direct walk to the door.... a refund... and a handshake.
I tutor middle school and high school math as a sort-of hobby and I have run across students similar to this.
Their parents are all gung-ho and I really want the kids to succeed (my goal is to put myself out of business afterall), but if they're not willing to work within my framework, I gently tell mom and/or dad that we're wasting my time and their money and refer them to somebody else to try.
Totally agreeing with Larinda's last few posts. Especially the point about hamburgers and fish. If they go to restaurant and order a hamburger, well, giving them fish, no matter how good the fish might be, no matter how much they may tell people the fish is great at that restaurant, well, they still wanted a hamburger and they're paying to get what they want. Now most people might go to your restaurant and ask for whatever the chef thinks is good tonight. But there's still going to be a few that come in hankerin' for a hamburger, and they just don't care what the chef wants to cook for them.
cornutt
01-30-2008, 03:59 PM
Totally agreeing with Larinda's last few posts. Especially the point about hamburgers and fish. If they go to restaurant and order a hamburger, well, giving them fish, no matter how good the fish might be, no matter how much they may tell people the fish is great at that restaurant, well, they still wanted a hamburger and they're paying to get what they want.
However, this might be a situation where they went into the restraunt and ordered fishing lures and tackling dummies. When that happens, all you can say is, "Sorry, we can't help you", and send them down the street.
elisedance
01-30-2008, 04:29 PM
Isn't everyone assuming that dumping the student is an option? I would have thought that students taking private lessons are not two a penny for most pros - hence the options listed above. In the interests of making a living - and consistent with the requests of the customer (which is what a student is, when you get down to it) it is entirely OK to simply teach in the manner the student demands. As long as you make it clear from the outset that you do not think that her strategy is the best way to move forward go ahead and teach her (but make sure you also have the studio management - if that is who you work for - appraised of the situation before you start so that they will support you when/if things go south).
There's the paycheck, and there's the peace of mind you get by not having to deal with a whack job (and all the Tylenol you save money on). Which is worth more to you?
elisedance
01-31-2008, 08:08 AM
A lot of jobs can only be survived with the occasional tylenol - its not like the student is there every hour just occasionally during the week. In any case, the point is that that question is very circumstantial and only saludas can know that for sure.
Larinda McRaven
01-31-2008, 01:10 PM
Even if you only go to Walmart once a week, but you end you throwing tantrums everytime you go, yelling, complaining to the cashiers, other customers, managers, baggers... they eventually ask you not to come back, regardless of the money the may make off of you, regardless of the fact that it is "only once a week". A tantrum is a tantrum, and it disturbs EVERYONE in the studio, not just the teacher. The richocet facotor is LONGLASTING, far outlasting the one hour the student is there. YOu cannot imagine how many HOURS are spent in studio meetings going over problem students and how to deal with them. The energy expenditure is HUGE
Larinda McRaven
01-31-2008, 01:27 PM
Typical from this student: "I want to dance Gold; I want to learn a Natural Twist Turn (!); I want it to come after figure xxx, and I don't want to learn how to do it (or thinks she knows it already); just dance it with me".
What do I do specifically? Any thoughts?
Looks like she just told you what to do.
elisedance
01-31-2008, 02:24 PM
Even if you only go to Walmart once a week, but you end you throwing tantrums everytime you go, yelling, complaining to the cashiers, other customers, managers, baggers... they eventually ask you not to come back, regardless of the money the may make off of you, regardless of the fact that it is "only once a week". A tantrum is a tantrum, and it disturbs EVERYONE in the studio, not just the teacher. The richocet facotor is LONGLASTING, far outlasting the one hour the student is there. YOu cannot imagine how many HOURS are spent in studio meetings going over problem students and how to deal with them. The energy expenditure is HUGE
Spoken as one who has obviously been there! I'm sure you are right but each case will still be a bit different so ultimately its saluda's call... :)
newbie
01-31-2008, 04:35 PM
Typical from this student: "I want to dance Gold; I want to learn a Natural Twist Turn (!); I want it to come after figure xxx, and I don't want to learn how to do it (or thinks she knows it already); just dance it with me". What do I do specifically? Any thoughts?
Well what prevents you from doing that? Dance her into a natural twist turn coming after figure xxx and let her go for gold. Why does it have to be done your way? She's the one who is paying, this should at the end of the day solve the student-don't-want-to-learn/teacher-don't-want-to-teach issue
and123
01-31-2008, 04:45 PM
Actually it kinda sounds like she complains no matter what. I bet if she got her way, soon she'd complain that she isn't learning enough, which makes the teacher look bad. So what to do?!?
Terpsichorean Clod
01-31-2008, 10:46 PM
How do you balance what the student wants to work on and what is good for him/her? To what extent should the student have a say in the lesson direction? Why do dance teachers ask, "So, what do you want to work on, today?"? Is it best if the student deflects the question with, "What do you think I should work on?"?
Larinda McRaven
02-01-2008, 12:29 AM
It is not really for the teacher to decide what is good for the student. It is for the teacher to take whatever makes the student happy and MAKE it good for them.
Unless the teacher is really a coach, which implies a different level of understanding from the student. I pretty much let all the students tell me what they want and what they think they need to do. Then I take that direction and, as much as possible, infuse it with good information.
My kitten will ask his students what dance they would like to do, the student may choose a Cha and then that is what they will focus on. But, the choreography isn't up to the students if they are medallists, it is up to the coach as there is a syllabus which has to be adhered to.
If he is teaching a comp couple they can suggest chore moves that they would like to be included in their routine and if it fits the 'allowed' moves for their level then he will incorporate it. If it can't be used then he explains why and suggests other moves they may like.
elisedance
02-01-2008, 04:09 AM
"Unless the teacher is really a coach, which implies a different level of understanding from the student"
We discussed the terms teacher and coach elsewhere recently and I think the consensus was that they may be interchangeable (which is not how I use them and I don't recall if you were part of the discussion Larinda) but obviously you feel they are different. How do you use them? It is relevant to the thread...
jekyblue
02-03-2008, 01:19 PM
As a student who has voiced the words "I just want to dance", perhaps I can offer an alternative viewpoint.
I'm a pro-am competitor at the upper bronze/beginning silver level, in one of those age categories where I'm never going to be uncontested, no matter which comp it is. In my case, there is absolutely no point to competing unless I have at least some competence in technique. In one post Saludas mentioned his student was uncontested. So my first thought is that if she's going to be uncontested most of the time, she is always going to get first place and is never going to see any point to learning technique. If she doesn't have the self motivation to learn technique and she wants to keep dancing, it's almost always going to be about learning new patterns to ward off boredom.
I have made the comment about just wanting to dance in three different types of situations that I can think of:
1. Immediately post comp. After weeks and weeks of hard work on routines and technique, I sometimes need a bit of recreation time. It doesn't last long, but you won't get me to focus too much on anything technical until I get in the mood to start prepping for the next comp.
2. The overly intense technique session. There is one pro I've worked with off and on for years who can go a bit over the top on technique. I'm the first to recognize that I need technique sessions, but I'm not an advanced student. Work on improving a movement should not be done with the expectation of perfecting it in "one easy lesson". I'm not going to be able to consistently do it like a pro at the end of an hour, even if I'm willing to try to get there. My preferred pro and the coaches I've worked with are able to focus on improvement consistent with my level as a desired result. The intense guy only wants to see perfection, and it's frustrating to continue to do something over and over once you've hit your personal wall. Fortunately I have a good relationship with the guy and I'm easily able to tell him when I've had enough and he is good natured enough to accept it. Not all of his students are brave enough to say stop when they've reached the breaking point, and he's lost some students because of it.
3. The instructor who fancies himself a coach. The guy never wanted to turn on the music. Instead, every lesson was breaking down a movement into component parts and doing them in slow motion. There is just no point to learning individual components if you cannot incorporate at least some of the technique into a dance done at speed, but unless I specifically asked for it, he would not ever include dancing to the music in my lesson time, and there were no other partners available to me for outside practice at the time. (This instructor very much resented just dancing, by the way. He felt it turned him into a "dancing monkey".) I put up with this situation for over a year when I had no other options, but I refused to compete with the guy.
Saludas shows too much sensitivity in his posts to be the latter type. I suspect his student just doesn't have the personal motivation to do anything other than learn new patterns to impress her friends. But there's a chance of any instructor falling into the second category now and then I think. Perhaps if the student is willing to try working on technique, it should be made clear that she can speak up when she's hit her limit. That limit may be reached far sooner than the instructor wants, but I think most people with any kind of motivation will be more willing to work on something hard for a bit if they know they can pull the plug at any time. And sometimes feeling just a little progress and getting praised for it is enough of a motivation for me to keep at it.
Perhaps if the student is willing to try working on technique, it should be made clear that she can speak up when she's hit her limit. That limit may be reached far sooner than the instructor wants, but I think most people with any kind of motivation will be more willing to work on something hard for a bit if they know they can pull the plug at any time.
That's sooo true for me. I'm very willing to work on technique. But I know when I understand the concept and just can't make my body do it yet and will need to practice. And when an instructor wants me to just keep doing it over and over and over in the lesson and I just know I'm not going to get it in the next hour, it just gets frustrating.
Peaches
02-03-2008, 02:07 PM
That's sooo true for me. I'm very willing to work on technique. But I know when I understand the concept and just can't make my body do it yet and will need to practice. And when an instructor wants me to just keep doing it over and over and over in the lesson and I just know I'm not going to get it in the next hour, it just gets frustrating.Count me in with this, too.
Especially when you add in the fact that I have about zero body awareness, at least with Standard (after 2.5 years of AT, it's starting nicely...finally), it's like pulling teeth to work on technique. To work on the same --ing things over and over and over and over. I'm not getting it, I know I'm not going to get it any --ing time soon, I can't feel any change...hell, I can't even feel what it is that I'm doing wrong or right... Yeah. Frustrating is one way to put it. Completely and totally --ing demoralizing is another.
I never really got to the point of asking to just dance.* I just didn't want to dance it at all anymore. Still don't. Foxtrot music does nothing but inspire dread at this point. And the thought of attempting any of it socially is just terrifying.
(*Disclaimer: I never got the point of just asking to dance. I just asked to switch to AT.)
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