Do all the better dancers, do it on2?

[road2graciousness]

Well, I guess it depends where about you are? I'm right in the middle of the UK, and most salsa seems to be on1, unless you're in Manchester or Birmingham (which are mostly on2, I think). Here in Sheffield, it's very much on1 ...

I'm on1 myself, I did lessons on2 for a while, a couple of years back, and it never stuck (it felt kinda wooden and contrived).

My perception, is that beginners and intermediate level dancers, tend to be on1, while advanced level, experts are tending to be on2. Is that accurate?

Thanks.

[tj]

Uh oh.... here we go again! :rolleyes:

The On1 vs On2 debate has been likened to a religious war (I think sweavo was the first poster that I remember saying this), in that it tends to get very passionate arguments on both sides, with neither being particularly constructive.

I will say this, however. IME, in a lot of scenes, I have seen dancers who have been dancing longer, start out as On1, and then switch to On2 after having gotten bored with On1. Then again, there was a semi-beginner last Sunday night who was trying to dance On2 (he told a friend of mine that he dances On2), but he wasn't on any steady count, so there are exceptions.

I think the general rule goes something like: learn the style that the majority of dancers dance in your scene first, then branch out to the other styles once you're comfortable with that style. It'll only make you a more versatile dancer if you can do many different styles.

[DCR]

My experiance with dancing goes back to the 70's and been dancing every decade religiously. First of all dancing is to have fun. When dancing it did not matter what timing timing I was on. I set my pace to the music and the lady I dance with. On1,2.3 or 4 it does not matter to me. Frankly speaking I don't care of all the technical moves. enjoying yourself and the lady is all that matters.
No timing is better than the other.
If one feels that they feel more comfortable dance on a certain timing please give yourself some time just relax and set yourself free. Versitlity is the key to been a good dancer.
If anyone feels that a timing is better than another. Please find another style of dancing like foxtrot or the waltz and leave salsa to the Salseros.

[road2graciousness]

Thanks for your comments guys.

I'm not trying to start a on1 vs on2 war! God no. NO NO NO.

I guess for me, in my local scene, it's predominatly on1, and I'm happy with that. However, I've been having thoughts of turning to the dark-side (sorry, I mean on2).

A lot of the (technically) better dance teachers in my area (and cities nearby) are on2. I'm thinking it may help me to spend time on technique, elements or turn-patterns etc. Currently, when I'm dancing, I tend to forget a lot of stuff, and find myself just in the moment, being spontaneous, which I think is great, but ... it's still very important to be grounded in good technique and on some level, know what you're doing (I think).

I'm gonna stop worrying about it now. I was checking out Magna Gopal on youtube, and figuring all good dancers, everywhere, are on2.

[DCR]

I don't think you are trying to start a war. Just that people don't understand the dance they just undstand what they are taught and what they see on TV. Nobody taught me, just grew up in NYC with the music, the bands and enjoyed it with the ladies I danced with.
Every generation there will another set of new Salseros and they will interpit the dance in there way but the timing(s) will remain the same.

[Stagekat]

In my mind Salsa is On1, Mambo is On2... So they are approached as two different dances...(I've learned that they vary more than just which beat to start on as well) My area is for the most part a Salsa crowd... But I find equally skilled dancers in both.
So while I understand the debate, I just think that they are two different dances. I just happen to prefer Salsa. :)

[Josh]

I think tj hit it when he said to learn what's common to get yourself going, no matter what that is, and then expand later on if you like...!

Ok road2g, here's my honest thought about your question. IMHO, the percentage of "good" on2 dancers is higher than the percentage of "good" on1 dancers. My belief is that this is because on1 is so much more prevalent. If you are a casual social dancer looking to learn salsa, you don't know that there are many different styles, and with the exception of a few places (like NYC), if you search for salsa lessons and just ask for salsa, 4 times out of 5 you're going to get on1. So that's what you learn. So, the percentage of on1 dancers who just happened upon the style and who are just in it for casual every now and then dancing is likely to be larger than those who are dancing on2. Now, you may begin with casual intentions, and turn out to be a very serious, awesome dancer. But, most who casually seek to learn salsa don't want to become amazing, and most don't put in the time and money it takes to do so.

Another way of putting it is that if you're dancing on2, it's probably because you sought out that style, whether you're starting from scratch, or coming from another style. Which in the majority of cases of people means that you are more serious about learning, more commited to stick with it, more commited to spend money on it, etc. This translates into faster learning, more passion, and ultimately, better dancing. Remember, these are just generalizations... And don't get me wrong, for either style, on average, the number of "awesome" dancers isn't very large...

[Dancelf]

Out of curiosity, is any of the on1 vs on2 debate about musicality?

In other words, is it ever the case that the con mucho sabor-star on2 dancers are seen dancing on1, or vice versa, because that's what the music is calling for?

Disclaimer: author is a westie...

[squirrel]

LOL.

I started with Colombian Salsa... did a little Cuban, then on1, now on2. :)

I think you can find good dancers in all "types of Salsa"... The "really advanced dancers" only know more styles. And this is part of what makes them so good.

[tangotime]

, I just think that they are two different dances.



:)




From the latino musicians-- ALL salsa is mambo-- but not all mambo is salsa

[tangotime]

My perception, is that beginners and intermediate level dancers, tend to be on1, while advanced level, experts are tending to be on2. Is that accurate?

Thanks.

NO-- in the states ALL chain schools teach mambo/salsa on 2 from day one , and have done so for 60 plus yrs . .

the expediency of learning on on 1 is what makes life for me ( and most teachers ) a damn sight easier !--- Spent multi yrs attempting to get people to stay on 2 consistently .

Is it musically correct ? in most cases- no .It depends on the composition .

The most important thing to not lose sight of ? -- enjoyment-- dont get too hung up on " clave "-- is it 1-2 or3-- if you are a follower, you,re at the mercy of the leader, so, suggest you hone your skills in more than one timing .

[tj]

I guess for me, in my local scene, it's predominatly on1, and I'm happy with that. However, I've been having thoughts of turning to the dark-side (sorry, I mean on2).

A lot of the (technically) better dance teachers in my area (and cities nearby) are on2. I'm thinking it may help me to spend time on technique, elements or turn-patterns etc. Currently, when I'm dancing, I tend to forget a lot of stuff, and find myself just in the moment, being spontaneous, which I think is great, but ... it's still very important to be grounded in good technique and on some level, know what you're doing (I think).

I'm gonna stop worrying about it now. I was checking out Magna Gopal on youtube, and figuring all good dancers, everywhere, are on2.

Given the above... I think you should take some lessons and see if you like it or not. It should improve your dancing at worst. Get you even more addicted at best. :) ;)

[MacMoto]

I think tj hit it when he said to learn what's common to get yourself going, no matter what that is, and then expand later on if you like...!
Yes, I think in many places, when someone takes up salsa dancing, it's more thank likely that the beginner level classes available in the area are mostly taught on1. So people start out by learning on1, and they only become aware of the existence of on2 after dancing for a while. As a result, many people who take up on2 already know how to dance salsa and are not complete beginners. This makes the overall level of on2 dancers higher than on1 in the same area.

NY and the surrounding areas are an exception to this rule, and I did come across quite a few beginner dancers dancing on2 at the NY congress. Presumably there are plenty of NY dancers who never had a chance to learn on1 at all.

[tangotime]

it does depend a lot on location ,for sure .

[Josh]

NO-- in the states ALL chain schools teach mambo/salsa on 2 from day one , and have done so for 60 plus yrs . .

No TT, the original poster was talking about NY style on2, which maybe 1 in 100 chain schools teach... not talking about PR/BR mambo, which is different from NY on2.

[road2graciousness]

I hear a lot of people telling me that on2 is more musically correct, or something (I am probably making that phrase up!), but that it's better for the women, and the timing is good for them to set up for spins and such like.

Is that correct?

Previously, when I tried to convert to on2, I found myself dancing in a really wooden way, really having to think hard about what I was doing, and my own timing. It just wasn't fun, not when I'm much more fluid and smooth on1. I guess that'd be a big hurdle for me, to put myself through that 'wooden phase' ... long enough for my on2 to become unforced and natural.

Does that make sense? I'd be interested to head what experience other leads have had making the trasition, on1 to on2.

[tangotime]

I hear a lot of people telling me that on2 is more musically correct, or something (I am probably making that phrase up!),
.

That is a consensus-- but-- to be truly " musically "correct, then one would be dancing on all beats of the clave .
2, is closer to that concept, but-- many cubans insist its still 1 .

Bottom line-- dont get too hung up on timing :headwall: --- there are other things you can devote your time to , whilst honing your skills, in the comfort zone you are use to .

And-- most important-- just enjoy the ride -- and leave the subleties to the " afficianados "-- other things will follow ( no pun ) in time .

[Sabor]

Do all the better dancers, do it on2?

imo.. the 'better dancers' do it on all beats.. depending on what the song/music is leaning to and/or depending on what count your partner feels better on..

[SalsaTO]

Nope,

I'm a pretty good Salsa dancer who learned way back in 1998. The Toronto scene was what you folks call On1. I stayed with what you call On1.

I was taught a style that was more sensual, did a lot more from closed position and had no shines... I added some shines to my repetoire, CBLs as they came into the scene, but I have no inclination to change the beat my feet move too. Foundation of any dance comes from the feet. Change the feet, you change the foundation and the dance. Ask any professionally trained dance instructor.

There are plenty of challenges in On1. If I'm still learning new turn patterns after almost a decade...

The big thing I've noticed about On2 are all what we used to call 'stop and goes.' I believe the On2 crowd calls them copas? The abrupt stop and change of direction appear to break the flow of what can be a very melodious movement and rhythm...

Most people learn salsa On1, those who spend a lot of time on the scene may learn what is called Mambo or On2 in Toronto. On2 is not called salsa here. But a lot of them stay On1 and are very very good at it. Many of the performers around town perform On1. And there is one school dedicated to teaching On2 from scratch. They perform On2 as well, and the routines flow well. But you can see the work that went in to make it work. Ditto for Oliver and Luda.

The two co-exist although sometimes uneasily. I've seen On2 leaders staying On2 trying to dance with On1 followers. It becomes a wrestling match as the On2 lead just does not work with an On1 follow, especially on timing for turns. I've seen a lot of them with On2 timing for their feet and On1 timing for lead and follow. That will lose all of your timing points in a competition...

I guess it's a matter of whatever floats your boat.

[MacMoto]

I hear a lot of people telling me that on2 is more musically correct, or something
People who tell you this are usually on2 snobs so they are somewhat biased. There's a whole gamut of salsa music out there, and some songs strongly suggest on2, some are more suited to on1 and some (like timba) work best for Cuban style, but there are also many many songs that seem to work fine with any of these styles. It's down to your preference as far as I'm concerned.

but that it's better for the women, and the timing is good for them to set up for spins and such like.

For spins it's true that the follower generally gains more time on2. For copas (and as SalsaTO says, NY style dancers seem to love copas), there's *less* time for the follower to execute the direction change on2 compared to on1.


FYI, I dance on1, on2 and Cuban, I love them all equally, and I've met loads of good dancers in all these styles.

[sweavo]

I hear a lot of people telling me that on2 is more musically correct, or something (I am probably making that phrase up!), but that it's better for the women, and the timing is good for them to set up for spins and such like.

Is that correct?


Yes, it's correct that people say that. It's not right that it is "more correct" though. Here are a few possible origins of that attitude.

"more correct":

1) mambo was danced on the 2 ( 2,3,4...6,7,8...) which directly interprets the Tumbao Moderna (the conga rhythm) which accents the following beats:

1.2.3.4.5.6.7.8.
..x...xx..x...xx

So if you focus on the conga you could feel on2 to be more correct

2) if you dance on the 1 you are counterpointing the conga but you are directly interpreting the cencerro (cowbell) which goes

1.2.3.4.5.6.7.8.
x...x...x...x...


given these two styles, there are a couple of arguments that weaken the case for ET2:

1) ET2 is not the same as mambo, it's a hybrid. It catches the conga on 2 and 6 but misses it on 4 and 8.

2) The conga only showed up in the music in the late 1940s, so how "authentic" can it be?

Then you can turn the argument back around the other way:

1) Cuban Son was danced contratiempo (2,3,4...6,7,8...) even before the tumbao showed up

2) "Salsa" is an urban dance born in New York. Its Cuban and Puerto Rican antecedents are no less valid, but they weren't called salsa.

better for women:

A better turn of phrase might be "better for showing off the woman". The theory here is that when you dance on2, the woman's part of most turn patterns happens around beat 1 rather than beat 5. In other words, when the music hits that crescendo around 1, she is spinning or whatever move has been led. So for performance, you could say she gets a better deal. In some sense the dance has become more about her.

The flipside of this one is that on1 your musical accents come on your open break, allowing quick flashes of styling to express the musical crescendos and accents. (It looks a bit more like swing to me).

better for spins:

I agree that ET2 timing is better for spins. To understand this, we have to notice that ET2 is not just on1 shifted. If we took ET2 and moved it to the 1, the basic would go like this 1,2...4,5,6...7 with the break steps on 1 and 5. So the lead for a multiple spin would go 1,2 pause GO... she would have time on 3 to get stable before spinning on 4 and would not have to come out of it until the next 1.


Previously, when I tried to convert to on2, I found myself dancing in a really wooden way, really having to think hard about what I was doing, and my own timing. It just wasn't fun, not when I'm much more fluid and smooth on1. I guess that'd be a big hurdle for me, to put myself through that 'wooden phase' ... long enough for my on2 to become unforced and natural.

Does that make sense? I'd be interested to head what experience other leads have had making the trasition, on1 to on2.

Yep, once you learn one way it can be very discouraging to try another way and to have to fight your instincts. For me it was just another interesting thing to try, I had maxed out on a local scale on 1 and wanted something interesting. Back then all my dancing was wooden by my current standards so maybe it didn't take much of a hit!

Don't expect your on2 dancing to feel the same as your on1 dancing: if you are listening to the music then they feel very different. Even when your on2 feels as good as your on1 it won't feel the same as it.

If you're listening to the music, it's likely that you'll start to feel that some music works better for you on 1 and some on2.

[Lofland]

As a leader, I like knowing both so I can ask my partner, "Do you want to dance On1 or On2?" Some advanced ladies are fine with both, then I get to choose.

Tropical Gem of Milano is one of the best dance companies in the world, and they are fantastic in both styles. If On1 is good enough for them, it's good enough for me.


John Narvaez and Liz Rojas of Salsamania in San Francisco are also somewhat flexible. Several of their DVDs teach the same patterns in both styles.

A majority of songs feel better to me On2, but there definitely are some songs with strong cowbell and no audible tumbao that work better On1. My On2 snob friends insist on dancing to a non-existent tumbao on some songs.

[WebMama]

For Sweavo:

That was a beautiful explanation! It is sometimes hard to explain all of that on a message board or in writing and you did a great job!!!! :applause:

[Beto]

For Sweavo:

That was a beautiful explanation! It is sometimes hard to explain all of that on a message board or in writing and you did a great job!!!! :applause:
Going OT for a sec, welcome to Dance-Forums, WebMama! 'bout time you showed up! :D

[sweavo]

For Sweavo:

That was a beautiful explanation! It is sometimes hard to explain all of that on a message board or in writing and you did a great job!!!! :applause:

Hey thanks! It beats working :)

[quixotedlm]

sweavo, got a question for you :)

So although we don't literally step on every clave beat, we do make a major body movement (a change of direction) on the major beat of the clave, the 2 beat which resolves the tension. It is in this sense that we "dance on clave". This style of dancing accents the clave's emphasis on the 2 in the way we move our bodies in the dance. Other timings, such as breaking on 1 or 3, do not accent the clave's emphasis on the 2 in this way


Can you explain this a bit more? Especially, I'm curious about the '2 beat which resolves the tension' statement.

[DCR]

Ooh Oooh here we go ..people trying to make a beautiful dance into Quantum Physics http://www.salserosweb.com/phpBB3/images/smilies/rotfl9.gif

[dancin/dj]

For Sweavo:

That was a beautiful explanation! It is sometimes hard to explain all of that on a message board or in writing and you did a great job!!!! :applause: I must say i sooooooooo agree, sweavo is the best i"ve seen im going to have to print it and study it because no one has said it better, (i"ve gotten headaches trying to read others efforts and quotes) since im a musican also i want to study this in detail , i can tell he has the clarity to reach me in musically terms, where in the past others have not, kudos to you Dude.

[sweavo]

... im going to have to print it and study it because no one has said it better...

Aww thanks! Credit for the parts about counterpointing conga and cowbell has to go to Loo Yeo http://www.salsa-merengue.co.uk/loo_yeo.html who explained it so clearly at a 1-day congress in York England at the start of this year. The stuff about the counts came from my own brain and the other points of view come from collecting all the casually-thrown opinions I've heard over the years and trying to accommodate them all into a "truth" that doesn't tell anyone that they're wrong!

quixotedlm: that's a heckofaquestion! I started to reply but it got a bit long so I've mailed it to myself and will try to finish it soon!

[sweavo]

sweavo, got a question for you

So although we don't literally step on every clave beat, we do make a major body movement (a change of direction) on the major beat of the clave, the 2 beat which resolves the tension. It is in this sense that we "dance on clave". This style of dancing accents the clave's emphasis on the 2 in the way we move our bodies in the dance. Other timings, such as breaking on 1 or 3, do not accent the clave's emphasis on the 2 in this way.

Can you explain this a bit more? Especially, I'm curious about the '2 beat which resolves the tension' statement.

Wow, well I couldn't explain what that writer was trying to say, but I'll happily improvise on a theme! Note that all the following is just my personal view, based on a lot of conjecture and some observations about the clave patterns.

I struggle accepting that explanation above and I have a feeling it is also an idea that carries over from the Mambo days.

First the idea of tension and resolution in the clave:

A lot of the time I don't really feel "tension" and "resolution" with the clave instrument itself on modern salsa music. But I can really hear it on rumba music. The rumba clave is slightly different than the regular (son) clave:


1.2.3.4.5.6.7.8.
X X X X X <- son clave (forward direction, or 3:2)
X X X X X <- rumba clave
If I write it next to the downbeats, you can see how it starts on beat, then disappears off on its own way, then returns to the beat:


1...3...5...7... <- counting the down beats only
X X X X X <- rumba clave, tension and resolution
To get a feel for this, do one beginners' lesson in Cuban rumba, and then go home and do the rumba basic step while listening to the clave. Eventually you start to feel the clave give you a little confirmation that you are doing it right, on 1 and on 7. (The Rumba basic steps are on the downbeats only).

Another way to feel this is by speaking it:
"DUM, baDUM, baDUM-ba-DUM"

If you try that or just look at that diagram, it looks and feels to me that the resolution is on beat 7. Whichever way round you look at it, the break step can only be on 2 or 6 and that clave "resolving beat" can only be on 3 or 7.

But we don't salsa to rumba clave, we do it to son clave.


1...3...5...7... <- counting the down beats only
X X X X X <- son clave, tension and resolution
When just counting the downbeats , this also lines up on 1 and 7.

How the salsa basic steps fit in:


1.2.3.4.5.6.7.8. <- counting the down beats only
X X X X X <- son clave
X X X X X X <- on1 or ET2 basic
So dancing ON1 or ET2 to a 3:2 clave does indeed "resolve" on the last step of the basic. This resolution might feel stronger on ET2 because your break step on beat 6 lines up with one of the strongest beats in the bar. Here's a chart with a whole slew of percussion parts on it. Notice how beat 6 stands out - all of those intruments not only hit the 6, but they are silent on the "ands" before and after it. Thus beat 6 on the diagram (really, beat 2 of the 2-side of the clave) is in this sense the strongest beat of the bar. On2 and ET2 dancers have their break step there, which make them feel all glad inside! (myself included)


1.2.3.4.5.6.7.8. <- counting the down beats only
X X X X X <- son clave
xxxx xxx x xxxx <- mambo bell
X oo X oo <- conga
x xx x xx x xx x <- cascara
O xxO xxO X O xx <- bongo bell
X x x X x x <- on1 basic
x X x x X x <- ET2 basic
A lot of salsa music is on the reverse (2:3) clave. Look what happens if you dance "real" on2 to this rather than ET2:


1.2.3.4.5.6.7.8. <- downbeats
X X X X X <- 2:3 clave
X X X X X X <- power2 basic step
Here we have alignment on 2 and on 8. The first step of the basic (which is a break step) hits the first beat of the clave on 2, and the last step of the basic hits the last beat of the clave on 8. So I would completely accept a power2 dancer claiming to dance to the clave. It's my current feeling that Power2 has a strong claim to "claveality" than ET2 . Maybe this was something that was true of Mambo and has passed orally down to the ET2 scene. I don't know.

In conclusion, I think the "feel" of music is a very personal thing, and is based more on habits of thought than on anything objective. Sure groups of people can reach a consensus whether beat 1 or 2 or the and-of-four is the most emphatic beat in the bar, but when two such groups meet, you'll likely have a religious war on your hands.

My own approach is not to expect myself to be able to get this by having it explained. First you must listen to the music and engage with it, try to get a feel for how it swings. Then, when you have feelings for aspects of the music, THAT is when words are useful, to rationalise your own experience. This kind of feeling/understanding can't be "downloaded" direct from another person by explanation alone.

If you got this far, was it any help?

[WebMama]

Going OT for a sec, welcome to Dance-Forums, WebMama! 'bout time you showed up! :D

Hahah - thank you! :cool: You know I find my way around to forums eventually! Just depends on how much work I got.

[timberamayor]

Here I am reviving this old thread but since I haven't been in the forum much it's something I find interesting to discuss. Sweavo has done a fantastic job of breaking everything down with notation and all. Really good work.


A lot of salsa music is on the reverse (2:3) clave. Look what happens if you dance "real" on2 to this rather than ET2:


Code:
1.2.3.4.5.6.7.8. <- downbeats X X X X X <- 2:3 clave X X X X X X <- power2 basic step
Here we have alignment on 2 and on 8. The first step of the basic (which is a break step) hits the first beat of the clave on 2, and the last step of the basic hits the last beat of the clave on 8. So I would completely accept a power2 dancer claiming to dance to the clave. It's my current feeling that Power2 has a strong claim to "claveality" than ET2 . Maybe this was something that was true of Mambo and has passed orally down to the ET2 scene. I don't know.


I personally dance Cuban dances and I feel also that power2 or contratiempo, as we call it, is the most "on clave" because it accents both of the upbeats. In fact I read a quote from Enrique Jorrín, creator of chachacha for those who don't know, that the most important beat in Cuban music has always been the 4. You still hear that a lot in Cuban music, a lot of the really strong accents in the music hit on the 4.

But in the end I am not one of those people who really care a lot if you dance on1, on3, ET2 or contratiempo. You have to dance whatever your partner is dancing or it won't work. I have tried ET2 but since I have to change the direction of my basic step it's too much work for me. I just stick with contratiempo.

But I do want to mention that when I first started dancing I thought it was arrogant of dancers to say "the more you feel the music, the more you will want to dance on2". But I have to admit that after dancing for about 10 years, I do feel more like dancing on2, albeit contratiempo, to many songs. I wouldn't say I dance a genuine son but sort of a sonified casino.

Of course the vast majority of salsa is based on son and some of it is really just straight-up son montuno with extra instruments, so it seems natural to dance son to it. But for faster songs, I prefer on1, mainly because son has the extended body motion over the 4-1 that doesn't translate well to fast music and turns into a bouncy motion that I don't like at all.


But we don't salsa to rumba clave, we do it to son clave.


I just wanted to mention that this depends on what music you're listening to. Cuban salsa makes extensive use of the rumba clave, I don't know I'd go so far as to say it is more common than the son clave, but it is very common in Cuban music.

[salsator2008]

I think it's a really great article that you wrote there. I think everyone will always have their own personal perference. For me it really depends on the song and what I'm trying to express. There are days when I prefer on 1 over 2 because it feels a lot more powerful to certain songs and faster.

[Sagitta]

Out of curiosity, is any of the on1 vs on2 debate about musicality?

In other words, is it ever the case that the con mucho sabor-star on2 dancers are seen dancing on1, or vice versa, because that's what the music is calling for?

Disclaimer: author is a westie...

Depending on which beat you dance and whether by on2 you mean on2 mambo or on2 Eddie Torres the feel is different because you break on different beats among other things. You can do the same move with all 3 styles to the same song and depending on the song a person equally versed in all 3 may feel that one particular styles fits the best for that move and song with the person he is dancing with that night. Note all the qualifiers. ;-)

[Simi-Lanjiao]

But I do want to mention that when I first started dancing I thought it was arrogant of dancers to say "the more you feel the music, the more you will want to dance on2".



Haha.. yeah totally agree with you on that one. It kind of implies if you're not dancing on2, you're not feeling the music and therefore there's something wrong with you.

IMHO... there really is no magic number that is superior - the music tells you on what count to dance.

[El Caobo]

But I do want to mention that when I first started dancing I thought it was arrogant of dancers to say "the more you feel the music, the more you will want to dance on2".

Perhaps more accurate wording would be "the more you feel the percussion, the more you will want to dance on2". I've been analyzing this for some time now and it appears to me that on1 dancers dance more to the melody of the song; while on2 dancers dance more to the rhythm section (timbales, conga, bongó, piano, clave, guiro, etcetera).

Hence, absent clear and precise percussions, songs are more attractive to on1 dancers. On the other hand, on2 dancers yearn pronounced percussions.

This is just my opinion, based on my observations. What is yours?

[timberamayor]

Perhaps more accurate wording would be "the more you feel the percussion, the more you will want to dance on2". I've been analyzing this for some time now and it appears to me that on1 dancers dance more to the melody of the song; while on2 dancers dance more to the rhythm section (timbales, conga, bongó, piano, clave, guiro, etcetera).

Hence, absent clear and precise percussions, songs are more attractive to on1 dancers. On the other hand, on2 dancers yearn pronounced percussions.

This is just my opinion, based on my observations. What is yours?
I think that's a good analysis, although for me it's more when the bass is hitting the 4 and 8 that I want to dance on2.

[tangotime]

Hence, absent clear and precise percussions, songs are more attractive to on1 dancers. On the other hand, on2 dancers yearn pronounced percussions.

This is just my opinion, based on my observations. What is yours?


Would tend to agree with that, altho.. some songs just seem to "say " to me.. dance on 1 or 2 or 3 irrespective of the musics origin ( Cuban, N.Y. , Colomb. etc. ) .

[DCR]

LOL...the dance is only as good as the person
Praise be I am not a technical person
even in martial arts and in all arts it's only as good as the individual.
I rest my case..lol

[samina]

Perhaps more accurate wording would be "the more you feel the percussion, the more you will want to dance on2". I've been analyzing this for some time now and it appears to me that on1 dancers dance more to the melody of the song; while on2 dancers dance more to the rhythm section (timbales, conga, bongó, piano, clave, guiro, etcetera).

Hence, absent clear and precise percussions, songs are more attractive to on1 dancers. On the other hand, on2 dancers yearn pronounced percussions.

This is just my opinion, based on my observations. What is yours?
there's some music that is better for on1, some that's better for on2...but few dancers know enough about salsa rhythm and timing to make that distinction. it's not universal that all rhythm/percussion in salsa music calls for on2...

[samina]

and my own answer to the OP's question from back in '08 would be...the best dancers dance on all timings, on1, on2, on3, onwhatever, and on no timing at all...whatever it takes to dance with the partner of the moment. :)

[quixotedlm]

I've no idea what on3 is (i.e., how one would dance to salsa or a related music with the break step occuring on 3) - is there a description somewhere samina? (oh hi there! :)). I've seen on3 mentioned more than once on the internets (including DF or SF perhaps), but never quite understood it.

As to the OP's question, the non-pedantic answer is 'yes'. Generally, the salsa dancers who have some years of experience, and go after constant growth, are at least familiar with on1, on2 timings, slot and casino styles of dancing, and LA vs NY styles of dancing. Their own preferred style may be entrenched somewhere towards LA or NY style in the spectrum, but generally they'd have the ability to dance on1 or on2 timings, and dance either in a slot, or in a circular fashion (to either timing).

Columbian style of salsa seems to be less common in the repertoire of dancers not specializing in that style. In Bachata, there is an increasing trend of knowing how to dance the footwork heavy Dominican style of Bachata (and let's not digress into whether Dominican style is really Dominican, or whether there is even an accepted style of Dominican bachata that's widely adopted etc ;-), in addition to dancing closed-position intimate Bachata. 'Better' dancers tend to know how to dance cha-cha as well, and they often strongly prefer to dance it on2 (regardless of their salsa preferences - this is even true in the heart of LA), and often have an understanding of how it's danced on1 and are capable of doing so under duress ;-)

In on1 scenes, on2 dancers do tend to be better. As others have said it, this is often because those who go after a niche often have to do so by going through a learning process that's not widely available - which often results in active learning and better results.

A very pedantic answer would be that 'better' or 'advanced' dancers are infinitely flexible enough to adapt to any timing whatsoever, can adapt to any kind of partner, and their soul is moved by the music, and they can ride any wave or subwave of the music whether it be rhythmic or melodic, and can simultaneously adapt to music, partner, floor etc. while keeping it fun, lighthearted, enjoyable and so on.... (your imagination is the limit to how much one could stretch this on and on ;-) )

[samina]

I've no idea what on3 is (i.e., how one would dance to salsa or a related music with the break step occuring on 3) - is there a description somewhere samina? (oh hi there! :)). I've seen on3 mentioned more than once on the internets (including DF or SF perhaps), but never quite understood it.


i've seen it discussed here...way back...and i've heard others talk about it, but i do not have personal experience with it.

my salsa instructor, who does all timings, all styles, and has traveled the world for maximum exposure to salsa communities of every type, has summarized the timing issue as "the vast majority of salsa dancers -- around 80% -- dance with no timing at all. this is consistent around the world. only about 10% dance primarily on1 and another 10% on2."

i found that summary interesting, considering how much debate there is about which timing is best.

ETA: hi, quix! :) :tongue:

[tangotime]

I've no idea what on3 is (i.e., how one would dance to salsa or a related music with the break step occuring on 3) - is there a description somewhere samina? (oh hi there! :)).



Many PRs have used 2 as their break of choice for multiyrs, and , Cuban Son is often danced on 3.

How do they do it ?.. they commence with the mans r. foot on 1 tap on 2 and break on 3 . ( my choice when Im not on 2 )

[tangotime]

has summarized the timing issue as "the vast majority of salsa dancers -- around 80% -- dance with no timing at all.

Sam.. they must dance on SOME specific time ,and to keep changing it would be a nitemare to follow !!

[samina]

Sam.. they must dance on SOME specific time ,and to keep changing it would be a nitemare to follow !!

welcome to the world of followers... :tongue:

no, they don't need to dance on a specific time. nope. that's the reality out there...

[samina]

TT, also...the great majority of salsa dancers on the planet have been taught informally, without instruction on timing. they dance by feel, and thus timing is a far more interpretive or flexible construct for them.

but i regularly dance with dancers who have been taught in class where the basics of the break are taught, and they frequently do not dance on time.

[opendoor]

..the more you feel the percussion, the more you will want to dance on2". I've been analyzing this for some time ... on2 dancers dance more to the rhythm section (timbales, conga, bongó, piano, clave, guiro, etcetera)...
I think that's a good analysis..

Why is it a good analysis? Conga and Clave (if there is one) rhythmically are so opposed to each other as could be.

.. some songs just seem to "say " to me.. dance on 1 or 2 or 3 irrespective of the musics origin...

mmmh? Forgive me! You know, I am no Salsa dancer at all, but if I had to dance salsa, I would also change the accentuation within a piece without qualm if a break or a solo would draw my inspiration.

[quixotedlm]

How do they do it ?.. they commence with the mans r. foot on 1 tap on 2 and break on 3 . ( my choice when Im not on 2 )

Wow - this makes so much sense! I've seen casino dancers do this often, but for some reason I could never really make sense of it by just watching. I've asked some of them to explain their basic step to me, and since most of the local 'good' dancers of casino style seem to have learned organically through various experiences, their ability to describe their own basic step to me and teach me, so to speak, has been rather poor. When I think about your description, it's very clear. Thanks!!

[samina]

Wow - this makes so much sense! I've seen casino dancers do this often, but for some reason I could never really make sense of it by just watching. I've asked some of them to explain their basic step to me, and since most of the local 'good' dancers of casino style seem to have learned organically through various experiences, their ability to describe their own basic step to me and teach me, so to speak, has been rather poor. When I think about your description, it's very clear. Thanks!!
that does make sense, doesn't it. casino dancers feel so different, and it has always felt like more than just the circular trail of their dancing but i could never put my finger on it. i'll keep this in mind the next time i encounters some...

[tangotime]

mmmh? Forgive me! You know, I am no Salsa dancer at all, but if I had to dance salsa, I would also change the accentuation within a piece without qualm if a break or a solo would draw my inspiration.


Thats exactly what " shines " do.. but.. to constantly change during a song, would cause utter confusion to the follower.. does it happen ? of course, by dancers who dont understand music and dance construction !.

" Changes " should reflect spedific instances and, are not arbitrary as to " anywhere will do " .

[tangotime]

TT, also...the great majority of salsa dancers on the planet have been taught informally, without instruction on timing. they dance by feel, and thus timing is a far more interpretive or flexible construct for them.

but i regularly dance with dancers who have been taught in class where the basics of the break are taught, and they frequently do not dance on time.


Im more than aware of that having spent multi yrs in Latino clubs.. but.. my experience is different.. they( leaders ) are pretty consistent on their choices of "break " . The only difference is the beat they choose ( some are 1 others 2 or 3 ). The real Salseros do experiment far more but they are the exception ( take NYC out of the equation ) .


As to class "people ".. of course they will get off time.. most are still learning ... even the teachers !!( Ive seen vids of some well known Profs (?) in salsa get off time ) .And, as to" teachers" in this genre.. 90% have never had any dance training other than that has been passed on by other non trained types.

Ive taught Profs here recently, who were totally unaware in the differences between a Son, a Son Guajira ,and a Guaguanco , in fact they didnt know they existed !!.( dont even mention Clave !)

It takes multi yrs of experience in this genre ,to come to grips with all the multi layered rhythms that make up the music,. not to mention the Son aspect of the genre .

Its also worth noting that, it depends upon the clientele; clubs in Tampa for e.g, in some cases, attract a mature crowd who are more conservative in their approach, and other clubs and nites , are noted for attracting a younger and more adventurous types.

[opendoor]

Wow - this makes so much sense! I've seen casino dancers do this often, but for some reason I could never really make sense of it by just watching. I've asked some of them to explain their basic step to me, and since most of the local 'good' dancers of casino style seem to have learned organically through various experiences, their ability to describe their own basic step to me and teach me, so to speak, has been rather poor...

that does make sense, doesn't it. casino dancers feel so different, and it has always felt like more than just the circular trail of their dancing but i could never put my finger on it. i'll keep this in mind the next time i encounters some...

Ok, but this should classify these dancers not as good dancers, in the sense of the openers question "Do all better dancers...". For my a good dancers changes his dancing according to the music style and the song structure, and he should be aware of this fact, and should be able to talk about it, too!

[tangotime]

Why is it a good analysis? Conga and Clave (if there is one) rhythmically are so opposed to each other as could be.



I am no Salsa dancer at all,



Your last para. speaks volumes..


1st.. para.. if there is no Clave then its NOT mambo/Salsa, even when not distinctive ,its implied ; proficient dancers know where the Clave falls in the music structure .

[opendoor]

Your last para. speaks volumes..

because in this case I speak as a musician.

.. if there is no Clave then ..its implied

I assumed that, too! But may be some readers around here do not know, that some bands do not use claves as an own instrument, or a sterotype pattern. Watch and hear Tito, though of course he follows the musical idea of the clave.

[tangotime]

Watch and hear Tito, though of course he follows the musical idea of the clave.

I was dancing to him "live " probably before you were born !!:rolleyes:

[opendoor]

oh :notworth:

[tangotime]

, or a sterotype pattern.






????????.. but without out that "S/type" then it would again, not be salsa... it has to be a either 2/3 or 3/2.. the 2/3 ( a guaguanco rhythm ) is the most common in NY style salsa ,whereas Montuno, which may be in 2/3 or 3/2 , and is a more "folksie " style of the genre.. And yes, its often distinctive on Piano and Base. All those are S/type formats .

And then we have Guaracha ( also a 3/2 clave ) with a 2/4 time ,very common in salsa , instead of 4/4 .Much of the old time Mambo was written this way .

Do most dancers ( or teachers ? ) know the difference?
probably not.. does that stop them dancing ? absolutely not !!... does it reflect in how one dances, knowing the Son rhythms ?, it should .

Look.. Im not a musician, but if Im teaching a style of dance that is supposed to reflect the music, then its incumbent upon me to at least have a working knowledge ( as little as this may be ) .

[opendoor]

in some way you are a musician. Theory, history, structure analysis overlaps with the active teaching of dancing.

[tangotime]

in some way you are a musician. Theory, history, structure analysis overlaps with the active teaching of dancing.


Well, thankyou for that.. tho I make no claims.

My music knowledge in real depth, compared to a musician , is about as good as my knowledge on partical physics !!

[NickJackson]

Salsa is a new dance category from the Spanish region.Salsa is generally performed with partner.Growing up kids are taking part in salsa learning activities.

[tangotime]

salsa is a new dance category from the spanish region.salsa is generally performed with partner.growing up kids are taking part in salsa learning activities.


huh ??

[quixotedlm]

Hahaha

[Simi-Lanjiao]

Everybody wants a piece of salsa ownership!

[IsaacAltman]

Good dancers dance whatever beat