Why Does Merengue Get a Bad Rap?

[pygmalion]

I've been out on the web the past couple days, looking for info on bachata. While I was out there, I found numerous references to merengue, "the national dance of the Dominican Republic." A lot of flattering references, actually, from a cultural perspective.

Yet, when I go out to dance salsa, I invariably find people sitting out the merengues at best, and at worst, making fun.

What's this all about? Is there a cultural divide going on here? Why does merengue have such a bad rep? Is it deserved? Or do salsa people just not understand? :wink: :D

[peachexploration]

Well, one perspective could be just the focus at that time. When die-hard salsa dancers go to "Salsa" clubs, that's all they really want at that time. They don't necessary dislike Merengue, they just want to dance Salsa "at that particular time". I have a good collection of Merengue and I really love the music but when I'm at a Salsa club, that's all I really want to do. Just one view, any others? :D

Edit: Now, when I'm in the mood for Merengue, I like to dance with my "special someone". Why? I don't know really. It just seems like a more intimate dance to me and that's when I want to be/dance with my special someone only. :tongue: 8)

[MacMoto]

Yet, when I go out to dance salsa, I invariably find people sitting out the merengues at best, and at worst, making fun.

What's this all about? Is there a cultural divide going on here? Why does merengue have such a bad rep? Is it deserved? Or do salsa people just not understand? :wink: :D

According to this article,
http://www.tosalsa.com/forum/articles/article011130alfieorta_salsavsmerengue.htm] (http://www.tosalsa.com/goto.asp?Salsa vs. Merengue[/b]
http://www.tosalsa.com/goto.asp?http://www.tosalsa.com/forum/articles/article011130alfieorta_salsavsmerengue.htm
it's because salsa dancers just don't know how to dance merengue...

I don't sit out merengue songs -- there were even times when I did't hit off well with a leader when dancing salsa but had great fun with merengue.
Having said that, especially where music is concerned, I must admit I definitely prefer salsa. (Then again, if it's a choice between merengue and bachata, I'd go for merengue any time -- I don't know why, but bachata music doesn't do anything for me...)

[Vince A]

What's this all about? Is there a cultural divide going on here? Why does merengue have such a bad rep? Is it deserved? Or do salsa people just not understand? :wink: :D
I've noticed that too!

Maybe the hard-core salseros think that the merengue is TOO EASY to do? Maybe not manly enough for them??? I don't know.

Granted the footwork is fairly easy, but the arms and body language looks pretty intriguing to me. I learned it by walking out on the dance floor beside a couple that was doing it, and copied their every move - to an extent!

I like the look of the dance . . . and maybe that's due in part that I'm just a rookie at Salsa.

Maybe Jonathan, Eric, Fernando, or Javier will give up the truth behind this. "Readers want to know."

[salsarhythms]

Merengue was, is and always will be my first love in latin music.

It's fun, it's energetic and the older stuff definately has a lot of soul.

I think the problem is in the newer music, unless you're from the DR
or unless you grow up in places like Spanish Harlem or the Bronx, you
just won't get the lyrics...of course a lot of the lyrics are pretty crazy
but I think that it all has to do with the culture and mentality of the
people...

In merengue you'll have a song that is very politically centered, but
at the same time very humorous...

As far as the dance and it being "easy"...

...I challenge anyone who thinks this to dance next to me and have
the crowd decide who's the better dancer...

Not that I'm the greatest dancer on the planet, but in Merengue there
are a lot of subtle movements that make it a smooth and enjoyable
dance...the thing is that it looks so easy and the mainstream way of
dancing now is so far from what Merengue is really about, that many
people under-estimate it.

Salsa is definately a more complex dance and music, but trust me
there is beauty in simplicity...and what seems simple to do, is not
always "simple to do"...

[HothouseSalsero]

Although I vastly prefer salsa to merengue, I still dance a lot merengue.

They are very different musically. I don't think it's necessary to look beyond that for an explanation of why some people who love salsa hate merengue.

I have been told by a Puerto Rican salsera (who also takes an interest in Dominican forms) that there's a lot of merengue that doesn't get played in clubs, that she considers to be superior to what gets played. I got the impression from her that the same goes for bachata, but even moreso.

[HothouseSalsero]

I think there are a fair number of Dominicans who like merengue but prefer to sit out the salsa songs. So I have heard. (This despite the fact that the DR has produced at least some very good salsa.)

[Salsero_AT]

To be honest i find most of the merengues that are played quite boring, they just do not inspire me to dance. Of course there are salsa tunes i do not like too.. :wink:

[Vince A]

As far as the dance and it being "easy"...

...I challenge anyone who thinks this to dance next to me and have
the crowd decide who's the better dancer...
Whoa, easy . . . I wasn't knocking the dance . . .

I "only" said I thought it was easy (the footwork) and I "copied" the moves . . . I didn't say what I looked like as I was doing either of them . . .

I personally think it a very beautiful dance, and it needs the recognition that it so deserves . . .

[peachexploration]

As far as the dance and it being "easy"...

Salsa is definately a more complex dance and music, but trust me
there is beauty in simplicity...and what seems simple to do, is not
always "simple to do"...
Right, there is alot more to Merengue than just the 1, 2 step. Not everybody can do it. At least not around me. :lol:

[peachexploration]

........there's a lot of merengue that doesn't get played in clubs, that she considers to be superior to what gets played. I got the impression from her that the same goes for bachata, but even moreso.

Yeah, I know people who think salsa is only done by Marc Anthony and merengue is new and is only done by Elvis Crespo. Not that either artist is bad but there is alot more that we don't hear on the radio or in clubs. so if you hear the same three songs all the time, that will probably contribute to listener being turned off by it.

[salsarhythms]

LOL Vince...

I was not saying that to you personally...LOL

I'm sorry if you took it that way...

What I was saying is that there are many people that do feel that
way and knock it, but it is not as easy as it may seem...

Again, I'm sorry if you took that as directed to you... :D

[borikensalsero]

What's this all about? Is there a cultural divide going on here? Why does merengue have such a bad rep? Is it deserved? Or do salsa people just not understand? :wink: :D

Here is my take on it, I'm with Fernando on this. There aren't many who can dance a merengue like I can.

I can't stand new style merengue. However, if you are to play old school merengue I'll gladly get up and dance. Sadly, the type of merengue that gets to mainstream airways isn't, by any means, good (IMHO).

I don’t think there is a cultural division, for in PR people dance more merengue than do salsa. The division with me comes from getting into salsa, not only as a dancer but as a lifestyle. I love my lady so much that the flair of another hottie doesn't even distract me, I don't even care to be part of it. If it happens to go on while I'm dancing, I simply say, thank you but I'm "taken", and sit down. I find so much fulfillment in salsa that the fulfillment merengue carries just isn't enough to suffice what I expect from my lady. Regardless of how great others see their women, their ladies just aren’t like mine, hence my willingness not to only turn my check but to tune them off as well.

Now, I happen to know for a fact that the simplicity of merengue is what rushes many salsa dancers away from the dance floor. They are so used to a different level of listening and dancing that the change is like going back to addition after you’ve learned calculus. I have a great bunch of Dominican friends who now don’t even listen to their long-forgotten-passion; merengue. And their reason is… simplicity of the music.

On top of that, merengue lyrics have changed, they went from socio-cultural implications to bad singers screaming about nothing worth listening to, despite how catchy they might sound after you've heard them twice, their rhythm becomes monotonous, and the least you want to do is listen to them. My idea of fun really isn’t anything these songs put forth, hence I find them boring when others claim greatness. Sadly, I think merengue, just like salsa, went through changes that were nothing but, musically speaking, bad for the music.

In all the rep is deserved depending on what side of the fence we are looking from.

[Sagitta]

There are quite a few merengues that I don't particular like but dance to as my gf does or there are newbies who like doing it. It does seem that a lot of people like the techno new-style merengue with the driving clear beat. Not particularly my favorite. And from my pat experience a lot of people find merengue difficult, so yes it isn't as easy as it may seem.

[salsarhythms]

Absolutely the music is much simpler than a salsa, but also the newer
stuff is just not there for me...

Some artists are keeping it alive, but the mainstream stuff on the
airwaves is not what merengue is all about...

[Vince A]

LOL Vince...

I was not saying that to you personally...LOL

I'm sorry if you took it that way...

What I was saying is that there are many people that do feel that
way and knock it, but it is not as easy as it may seem...

Again, I'm sorry if you took that as directed to you... :D
Phew! Thanks Fernando . . . I thought I had said something terribly wrong :oops:

[borikensalsero]

Absolutely the music is much simpler than a salsa, but also the newer
stuff is just not there for me...

Some artists are keeping it alive, but the mainstream stuff on the
airwaves is not what merengue is all about...

I have a CD called Merengues Perdidos... Wow, what great stuff on that CD. My only merengue CD.. :D

[salsarhythms]

No way Vince... :D

I gotta check out that CD...

[Vince A]

Thanks Fernando . . . :)

[salsarhythms]

Hey Hothouse...

Your lady friend is right, a lot of what is played is not even close
in music as what is not being played...

I guess it's because the newer stuff appeals to a younger crowd...
Not sure...

But man, I'll take a Perico Ripiao (form of Merengue) any day over
the new stuff that's out there now...

[Jack]

I find Merengue very interesting, I like it a lot

[dragon3085]

Sometimes I think its a country thing, because a lot of people slam bachata as well which is also a dominican dance. Personally myself, any dance that many people diss, must be worth knowing- I think is the ease of dancing merengue that upset some dancers whom need lot of ego fixing for learning a more difficult dance.

Pat

[Sarah]

I have a very soft spot for merengue. The simplicity of the basic step and the rhythm, combined with the downright cheesyness of some of the music gave me something I could playact and have fun with. I could do `silly, cheesy and flirtatious' on the dance floor long before I felt comfortable expressing `steamy and passionate'. Merengue is the music that I learned to play with. :)

Cheers
Sarah

[HothouseSalsero]

salsarhythms, I actually prefer the newer stuff to most of the older merengue I've heard, but I would like to hear more of "the other stuff," whatever it sounds like. A lot of the older merengue I've heard has been on Fania releases anyway, and since Johnny Pacheco can't stand merengue, maybe it's better to look elsewhere for it.

I was disappointed that I didn't like Cuco Valoy' merengue recordings much. He does a few salsa songs that I think are great (especially "Mariana Engracia").

[mhgroove]

I love dancing merengue...and I heard the complaints from salsa dancers that merengue is simple and the music is montonous. I think that's an unfair complaint. Merengue is a beautiful, sensual dance that should get a lot more appreciation. Unfortunately, as Americans we live lifestyles that are always about the next thing and the more complex that thing is..the more interesting it supposedly is. There is great depth and power in simplicity and I believe the merengue is a part of that.

Another example, I'm here in San Antonio and most everyone in the city are fans of the San Antonio Spurs(I am too) and Tim Duncan to most basketball fans outside of the city thinks his game is simple and boring. But if you watch closely...Tim knows how play basketball and he makes the game looks so easy. I can really appreciate that! I feel the same way about great merengue dancers.

Could anyone give a good starting list on some old-school merengue? That would be greatly appreciated.

[danceguy]

I must confess I haven't been the biggest fan of Merengue, but I wouldn't say its because I think the dance is easier than Salsa...honestly its more because I am not very good at it. I've watched some of the advanced Salseros in my area do some very intense Merengue...and its very beautiful and inspiring to see how they dance.

I know very little about the music, but most of the Merengue I hear has bits of hip-hop and other weird stuff in it...and it doesn't really move me very much. But the tunes that Fernando included with my copy of SalsaRhythms have really caused me to take a liking to Merengue (those are Merengues, aren't they?).

I don't mind doing any dance if the music moves me...but if it doesn't then I'll be sitting that one out or getting a drink of water. ;)

SG

[Dancegal]

I concur with others on old school merengue vs. today's music. I think techno-style merengue sucks and does not inspire me to dance. Elvis Crespo and Grupo Mania are ok IMO. I grew up on merengue and have a real soft spot for it - but somehow (like someone said - salsarhythms I think) - it's better to dance it with someone you care about. When done well, it is more intimate :P - then again I'll take techno-merengue over cumbia (yuck!) anyday!

[golddancer]

well here is a twist.... The Salsa club where I go once in a while plays a lot of merengue and everyone dances to them. I find it hard to find a guy who likes merengue... but I know they exsist. I have met one!!! ... Even two! :-)


I think merengue is fun. People just don't know how to have fun with it!!

[pygmalion]

I think it's fun too. And I bet, if I went to the Dominican Republic and danced, I'd come back thinking it was profound, not necessarily fun. Hmm.

[ritmovida]

This is my first posting to this forum, so I will briefly introduce myself. I grew up as a competitive ballroom dancer in Magadan, Russia. About eight years ago, I moved to Anchorage, Alaska to get my BA, MA, etc. After a couple of of years, just when I thought that my "dance career" was over, I went to a local Latin dance club and got hocked, of course. Alaska is the last place you would think of, I know, but here we are!

To make the long story short, we have a very mixed Latin community here. We happen to have a lot of Dominicans, especially older ones, and they are the champs. Talk about "not easy" and "profound!" They, of course, dance to the good old stuff.

I say Viva Merengue! with all it's simple and complex ways. I highly recommend the reading about the history of Merengue at http://www.salsa-merengue.co.uk/revealit/histmer/prologue.html

Nice to join you all!

[Suaveson]

Perico Ripiao (form of Merengue)
as mentioned earlier by Rythms is my favorite type of merengue,

Like Los Hermanos Rosario
Tony Rosario Rocks!

It's so much fun to dance to,

In my book, no party is complete without some good merengue!

[salsachinita]

While I don't like a lot of the crazy-fast/cheesy/over-catchy stuff, I really don't mind a few good meregue.

(sometimes I'm just so sick of being put into fancy moves after fancy moves.....a little simplicity is like an oasis....!)

There are intimate subtleties in merengue that just isn't the same in salsa. Sadly only the ones from 'old school' dance like that these days.

[looyenyeo]

Like anything else, you get out of something what you put in.

In my experience as a teacher, more people put more effort into learning salsa than they do merengue. Hence the perception that merengue is not "as good" as salsa becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy.

I feel many people only see Merengue's simplicity and take it at face value. Instead, I challenge anyone to dance merengue while implying son clave in their bodies, and then tell me that it wasn't fulfilling. Better yet, try implying rumba clave (which really rocks), and switching into and out of 6/8 time. If you get beyond that, then try implying Afro-Cuban 6/8 clave.

Perhaps if people considered merengue's heavy pulse pattern as an open framework that they should fill with a variety of rhythms, they would think of it differently. This makes a very strong case for a different/more rhythmic pedagogical approach to merengue.

And it'd go a long way to dispelling merengue's bad rap of being "too simple".

Loo

[cocodrilo]

Although I have never danced at a club in the states(so kick me- I live abroad!) my buddies & I LOVE merengue tunes/dancing and I have never seen anyone "sit out" a merengue dance here in Japan. I dance salsa with lots of fast shines, but I still think a properly-executed merengue is much more exercise! The movements are super-sexy and you can grab any beginner and teach them to follow! Just where did merengue start/evolve? Anyone out there know? I have a bunch of merengue CDs I pick up when in Mexico and boy does dancing to these make for a good workout!

[pygmalion]

This is my first posting to this forum ...
I say Viva Merengue! with all it's simple and complex ways. I highly recommend the reading about the history of Merengue at http://www.salsa-merengue.co.uk/revealit/histmer/prologue.html

Nice to join you all!

Hi ritmovida! It's nice to have you join us. :D I'll check out the link.

Welcome.


Jenn :D

[MapleLeaf Salsero]

Nice to join you all!

Nice to have you join us Ritmovida! :D How´s the weather in Alaska this time of year? :wink:

To be honest I don’t usually dance Merengues at a salsa club for several reasons:

a) I need to rest between salsas
b) The songs they play are usually quite horrible and monotonous
c) The 2 beats of merengue just doesn’t reach into my soul as the 4 beats of salsa

I was at the Dominican Republic about 6 years ago at Bahia Principe (Puerto Plata). Everyday the Dominicans at the hotel would give free merengue lessons to the tourists. This was during my pre-dance era and unfortunately during my two week stay, I never once tried it. I was too embarrassed to dance in public. :oops: I didn’t like watching the tourists dancing merengue though because it looked so awkward and unnatural (even at the time when I was a non-dancer). However, when the Dominicans did it, it looked so sensual and natural. I loved it! I remember one night I was looking at this beautiful Dominican girl dancing merengue by herself in such a sensual way that I couldn’t stop drooling. I was dying for a dance with her. This was the first spark I ever felt for any type of dance. Up till then dancing had meant nothing to me.

Even though I’ve danced merengue many times in the last couple of years, I can honestly say I don’t know how to dance it. :( I’m still light years away from that image that lurks in my mind of that beautiful Dominican girl dancing merengue from the heart. I therefore believe merengue can be very sensual and exciting if danced the way it was conceived and with good music. This unfortunately I cannot do (at least yet…).

I am still however grateful for merengue because it generated my first feeling of excitement and interest in dance, it was the seed that lead me to new levels of enthusiasm and accomplishment. It was my “first love”. :together:

[borikensalsero]

Like anything else, you get out of something what you put in.

In my experience as a teacher, more people put more effort into learning salsa than they do merengue. Hence the perception that merengue is not "as good" as salsa becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy.

I feel many people only see Merengue's simplicity and take it at face value. Instead, I challenge anyone to dance merengue while implying son clave in their bodies, and then tell me that it wasn't fulfilling. Better yet, try implying rumba clave (which really rocks), and switching into and out of 6/8 time. If you get beyond that, then try implying Afro-Cuban 6/8 clave.

Perhaps if people considered merengue's heavy pulse pattern as an open framework that they should fill with a variety of rhythms, they would think of it differently. This makes a very strong case for a different/more rhythmic pedagogical approach to merengue.

And it'd go a long way to dispelling merengue's bad rap of being "too simple".

Loo

I'm not sure I understand Loo... But let me know if this is similar to what you mean. When I got good at salsa we decided to dance Mambo to merengue but using the heart beat of the clave. My dance partner and I would pick out beats that would match the pattern of the clave in a song then dance to that. Although we got into the dance that way, it wasn't because the music did it for us, but because we did it for the music. As far as we were concerned, we didn’t even need the music, for our minds were the ones doing the job, kind of like a dream, no need to be awake for your mind to create a scenario that feels as “real” as being totally conscious. We got so good at it, that we would do the merengue basic steps all against the natural rhythm of the music because we were thinking clave. We found it so amusing that we began doing it to bachata.

I tend to pull away from those things, even to salsa songs, which I have to “make-believe/search” for something that isn’t there in order for it to get into my soul. While I do agree that what you put into something is as much as you get out of it, I tend to do away with the idea that for something to sooth my tastes, I must change its essence, find something I like, then apply it so it can fit my idea of fulfillment. What we came away with was that merengue didn’t make the dance fulfilling, but did so the addition of the clave to our dancing, which in a sense brought us back to more of a salsa feel than merengue. Ultimately taking us away from the realm of merengue, for simply, our minds were the ones controlling the meaning of the music and not our souls feeling what was there.

In PR many people actually do guajira to Merengue. My ladylove sat down with one of the instructors in the area and asked him what was going on. He explained what beats they were dancing to, which they implied, and how they chose to interpret the music. While I saw the validity of their argument, my one thought was, if you are not in love with the entire person why search for ways to make yourself love the person? Whether it is by eliminating what that person is, looking for those 2 qualities that you might like about the person and attaching all emotion to them, or just thinking of qualities we love about another person and believing that the person really has them, when in fact it is a creation of the mind. Yes, we will end up getting lots from our new perspective, but it is one generated by the mind, not the essence/nature of the person.

[salsachinita]

8) Ok, at the risk of being an outcast, I am going to confess that I went to a (prodominantly) merengue club last night & had an absolute ball :D !

(I'm going through a bit of anti-salsa-elitism/snobbery phase...... :) )

Everybody (90% Latinos) there were so much more relaxed....! Eventhough I didn't get the challenges I usually crave for, I felt free.

With the (relative) simplicity of the music, I was playing/experimenting with the beats & movements.......something I havn't done for a while 8) .

I've been so completely absorbed in my current transformation, I had forgotten to have fun :shock: ........

Not only did I get my fix, I've also strengthened myself, ready for the next challenge. Just in case I need it 8) !

[pygmalion]

Ah ha! I wondered, and now I know. Sometimes, those salseros who look so serious are having fun, and sometimes they aren't. :shock:

I know that the guy I dance salsa with (notice I hesitate to call him a partner. Don't want to jinx anything LOL) gets this serious concentration look on his face before leading complicated moves. He can't be having fun then. He's working too hard, poor guy. Maybe he and I should try some merengue. :idea:

[Suaveson]

Right on Sistas!

If you all liked the merengue escape you should try dancing some
reggaeton(Spanish Reggae).

I would describe some of it as Reggae dancing like (the butterfly) with a little more latin hip motion! But I must warn you it's close contact dancing!

[pygmalion]

I've tried it. Close contact? You're not kidding. :shock: I actually like it, as long as the guy doesn't mistake dancing for love or lust. LOL. There's nothing like a little hip action. Or a lot. Hmm.

[salsachinita]

If you all liked the merengue escape you should try dancing some reggaeton(Spanish Reggae).

I love reggaeton :D ! Eventhough I tend to get myself in trouble with the close contact (as I do in reggae) :oops: :roll: :lol: !

There was a thread somewhere in 'Salsa', where people whine about reggaeton though........(the title of the thread had 'hip-hop' in it)

Eventhough I am a die-hard salsera, I love the variety of Latin music/dance. It's great fun to let your hair down at least once in a while (more if you choose to do so 8) )!

[golddancer]

Like anything else, you get out of something what you put in.

In my experience as a teacher, more people put more effort into learning salsa than they do merengue. Hence the perception that merengue is not "as good" as salsa becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy.

I feel many people only see Merengue's simplicity and take it at face value. Instead, I challenge anyone to dance merengue while implying son clave in their bodies, and then tell me that it wasn't fulfilling. Better yet, try implying rumba clave (which really rocks), and switching into and out of 6/8 time. If you get beyond that, then try implying Afro-Cuban 6/8 clave.

Perhaps if people considered merengue's heavy pulse pattern as an open framework that they should fill with a variety of rhythms, they would think of it differently. This makes a very strong case for a different/more rhythmic pedagogical approach to merengue.

And it'd go a long way to dispelling merengue's bad rap of being "too simple".

Loo

ok I have limited knowledge what is clave? Explain please.

[Suaveson]

I've tried it. Close contact? You're not kidding. :shock: I actually like it, as long as the guy doesn't mistake dancing for love or lust. LOL. There's nothing like a little hip action. Or a lot. Hmm.


You and Chinita are right! It does take 2 consenting adults to dance reggaeton :together:

[Suaveson]

Like anything else, you get out of something what you put in.

In my experience as a teacher, more people put more effort into learning salsa than they do merengue. Hence the perception that merengue is not "as good" as salsa becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy.

I feel many people only see Merengue's simplicity and take it at face value. Instead, I challenge anyone to dance merengue while implying son clave in their bodies, and then tell me that it wasn't fulfilling. Better yet, try implying rumba clave (which really rocks), and switching into and out of 6/8 time. If you get beyond that, then try implying Afro-Cuban 6/8 clave.

Perhaps if people considered merengue's heavy pulse pattern as an open framework that they should fill with a variety of rhythms, they would think of it differently. This makes a very strong case for a different/more rhythmic pedagogical approach to merengue.

And it'd go a long way to dispelling merengue's bad rap of being "too simple".

Loo

ok I have limited knowledge what is clave? Explain please.

The clave is the backbone to salsa music and the dancers way to keep in step/rythm

Man, where are Rythms and Boriken when you need them.....
probably all crashed out from a night on the dance floor....

Read this link

http://www.salsanewyork.com/magazine/articles/la_clave_keyfordancing.htm
it will help you understand La Clave.

[Sabor]

What's this all about? Is there a cultural divide going on here? Why does merengue have such a bad rep? Is it deserved? Or do salsa people just not understand?

partly, i think its due to salseros wanting a more complex intricate rythme to move on, more variety of instruments and the wide range of play u get from salsa music.. it is more possible for them to get a little bored with the simpler merengue especially that most DJs (i've seen) dont promote merengue like salsa, they usually have a certain number of merengues that they will repetitively played time and again and with time it becomes obselete to the salseros ears..

however, may be even more so, eventhough merengue can be characterized as a simpler beat of music.. in its fast form it can be mucho more challenging to dance to than salsa because in its high speed form, i've seen very few who can perform with the required energy and body isolation control / power it takes to take this dance to levels unimaginable or rarely seen in common salsa clubs..

it is my opinion that it requires much higher dance ability and improvisation / playfullness to pull a staggering merengue high speed dance on the floor, and that dance partners have to be quite evolved on the dance scale to truely take this dance to its high amazing level.. it can be truely a mix of all popular dances and then some.. the space one has to play the beat is endless and i think only truely fascinating dancers thrive on it.. :D

[HothouseSalsero]

I love reggaeton :D ! Eventhough I tend to get myself in trouble with the close contact (as I do in reggae) :oops: :roll: :lol: !

There was a thread somewhere in 'Salsa', where people whine about reggaeton though........(the title of the thread had 'hip-hop' in it)

Eventhough I am a die-hard salsera, I love the variety of Latin music/dance. It's great fun to let your hair down at least once in a while (more if you choose to do so 8) )!

I was out dancing a couple weeks ago, and I heard some salsa songs that incorporated reggaeton. I was surprised at how well it worked.

I'm not comfortable dancing "grinding" type dances (although I'm not sure why I find it any different than dancing a bachata in a close position, except that somehow the bachata feels more "formalized," and the grinding just seems too close to the real thing).

I've heard very negative things about reggaeton's lyrical content and social uses, however, from a (young) Puerto Rican (who still lives in Puerto Rico). He says that the lyrics tend to be even more misognynistic and violence-oriented than typical gangsta rap. He did say that the stuff that crosses over to a U.S. audience (I don't know about Australia) tends to be the best artistically, and the least potentially offensive lyrically.

I have heard good things about Tego Calderon, in particular.

[salsachinita]

[(I don't know about Australia)

Dunno. My Spanish isn't good enough to understand lyrics yet......I imagine it wouldn't be any more inspiring than catchy merengue/R&B though :roll: ....!

BTW, we got no bachata at clubs. You can hear it at house parties etc, but my local Latinos tend to do Bolero to it........

[golddancer]

Like anything else, you get out of something what you put in.

In my experience as a teacher, more people put more effort into learning salsa than they do merengue. Hence the perception that merengue is not "as good" as salsa becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy.

I feel many people only see Merengue's simplicity and take it at face value. Instead, I challenge anyone to dance merengue while implying son clave in their bodies, and then tell me that it wasn't fulfilling. Better yet, try implying rumba clave (which really rocks), and switching into and out of 6/8 time. If you get beyond that, then try implying Afro-Cuban 6/8 clave.

Perhaps if people considered merengue's heavy pulse pattern as an open framework that they should fill with a variety of rhythms, they would think of it differently. This makes a very strong case for a different/more rhythmic pedagogical approach to merengue.

And it'd go a long way to dispelling merengue's bad rap of being "too simple".

Loo

ok I have limited knowledge what is clave? Explain please.

The clave is the backbone to salsa music and the dancers way to keep in step/rythm

Man, where are Rythms and Boriken when you need them.....
probably all crashed out from a night on the dance floor....

Read this link

http://www.salsanewyork.com/magazine/articles/la_clave_keyfordancing.htm
it will help you understand La Clave.

Gracias,
I knew clave was an instrument but it role really is clear now. I will share with my local salsaneros.

[MadamSamba]

Wow, four pages of answers, Pygmalion! That should indicate just how controversial this topic is. I think it's been covered pretty much in the past responses, but personally I love merengue. I couldn't do it all night and salsa is my first love, but a good merengue (not a pretend one) can be pure poetry!

A lot of salseros/salseras steer away from it, as though it's the dumb cousin. That's probably because, in theory, it's just a counting dance, 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 (or four, depending on where you're from) and you can't really do much wrong in a basic merengue, but as I said, a good merengue can be a joy to dance and there's something really rewarding about following a great merengue leader because it can be such a complex dance...that's my two cents worth! :lol:

[dessaix]

I dont know the "right way" to dance merengue just the 1,2 1,2 in a circle spin to stop and fast counter clock wise turn (if they have names i dont know em) and just mix it with salsa styles.



I personally like to dance both but for me, merengue is much funner to dance and to listen. 8)

[brujo]

Could be a cultural thing, too.

The US, Canada, and all the 'gringo' cultures are essencially non-musical countries. While Cuba and the Dominican Republic have music playing even inside the bathrooms. Because of this, the people have an amazing appreciation for the music and it touches them in a way that it is hard for many people outside of these cultures can understand.

So when Dominicans dance merengue or bachata, it is all about the passion of the dance, about expressing their emotions atuned to the music. You could grab two sticks, click them together for six minutes and they will dance passionately for the same six minutes. They shake their whole bodies, connected by their hips.

The merengue and bachata I see outside of the Dominican Republic is more 'interpreted', it has gone through the puritan filter of the white culture, just like salsa in NY tends to be more technical compared to the raw emotion of Cuban Casino within the country. The outside style might be exciting and fun, but it doesn't fit the music as well, so people start putting salsa moves into the mix, and it starts to lose the feeling and connection until it becomes yet another form of ballroom dancing.

[salsachinita]

You could grab two sticks, click them together for six minutes and they will dance passionately for the same six minutes. They shake their whole bodies, connected by their hips.

.............and that is as real as it gets 8) . We used to have these sessions regularly, with my local Colombians. After our salsa club finally kicked us out at the end of the night, they moved the congas into the street & picked up anything that made sounds, then we jammed/grooved til the sun came up :D ..........

*gotta get it happening again*

[Phoenix Salsa]

Typically when I go to a Salsa club, I often see dancers doing the Merengue turns with the same speed as in Salsa(in 3 counts). I was taught to dance Merengue as an eight count dance, while counting the turns down to take 6-8 counts say for a simple right turn for the lady. The feet and the waist are constantly moving to the beat of the song, while maintaining a slower pace with all our moves.
Almost like one is containing this fast exposive music(as reflected by your lower body) to a romantic pace with your upper body and your dance turns.

Faster is not always best, in regards to Merengue.
Agree or disagree?

[HothouseSalsero]

I like dancing double-time to merengue. I don't know whether that's good or not.

[pelao]

I like dancing double-time to merengue. I don't know whether that's good or not.

you mean like instead of going moving: right, left, right, left; you instead go right, right, left left, right right, left left (all in the hips, 'meneandose').

This is actually done wit a lot of merengues. Like merengue tipico/perico ripiao or bachatarengue/bachata ripia.

[HothouseSalsero]

No, by double time I mean dancing it twice as fast as the beat.

It's funny though, I used to do something like you describe, because I thought I had been taught it that way somewhere along the way, but I could never figure out whether I had actually learned that from someone or made it up.

[pelao]

No, by double time I mean dancing it twice as fast as the beat.

It's funny though, I used to do something like you describe, because I thought I had been taught it that way somewhere along the way, but I could never figure out whether I had actually learned that from someone or made it up.

wow, i've never seen anyone speed up the actual dance. cause the one i described is usually used on the faster songs, but in the [sub]genres i've seen (merengue tipico and bachatarengue).

i'm actually listening to some right now, and you couldn't possibly speed up the dance. If you or anyone likes merengue that much, i can probably hook some of you guys up with some merengue tipico to see if you guys like it - it definitely aint like the big band merengue.

[borikensalsero]

Typically when I go to a Salsa club, I often see dancers doing the Merengue turns with the same speed as in Salsa(in 3 counts). I was taught to dance Merengue as an eight count dance, while counting the turns down to take 6-8 counts say for a simple right turn for the lady. The feet and the waist are constantly moving to the beat of the song, while maintaining a slower pace with all our moves.
Almost like one is containing this fast exposive music(as reflected by your lower body) to a romantic pace with your upper body and your dance turns.

Faster is not always best, in regards to Merengue.
Agree or disagree?


Welcome Phonix Salsa...
As far as dancing merengue fast or slow, it really depends on the song. Some songs really call for a faster speed. Some, the romantic or more Mr. Guerra like, feel best to me danced slow. But again I don't enjoy any type of fast dancing.

[salsarhythms]

I know it was asked what I meant about "old-school" merengue, and
it would have to be guys like:

Victor Roque "Y Su Gran Manzana"

Sergio Vargas

Fernandito Villalona

Juan Luis Guerra "Y 4/40"

Wilfrido Vargas (Side Note: his songs started to get ridiculous in his
later years...)

Conjunto Quisqueya

Those are some, but like I said it's all their older stuff that I really
liked...

[mhgroove]

I know it was asked what I meant about "old-school" merengue, and
it would have to be guys like:

Victor Roque "Y Su Gran Manzana"

Sergio Vargas

Fernandito Villalona

Juan Luis Guerra "Y 4/40"

Wilfrido Vargas (Side Note: his songs started to get ridiculous in his
later years...)

Conjunto Quisqueya

Those are some, but like I said it's all their older stuff that I really
liked...

Thanks for the list Salsarhythms! It was me who asked for some old-school merengue. I'm going look for some of these guys CD's next week!

[Sagitta]

Faster is not always best, in regards to Merengue.
Agree or disagree?

Welcome to df Phoenix Salsa!! :D I say that it depends. I dance according to how I interpret the music, which sometimes involves dancing merengue half-time for instance. As for the speed of moves, again it depends on my interpretation of the music. If it is techno merengue there probably will be a lot of fast moves etc as compared to some of the better stuff.

[Vin]

My biggest problem with dancing merengue is that it just tires me out much more than salsa. I can dance salsa all night until I am exhausted but if I dance a few merengues I start getting cramps in my stomach and that is no fun. Also I agree that for Merengue I would prefer to dance it with someone whom I feel passionate about.

[HepcatBob]

I love merengue, especially when it's on top of a lemon merengue pie.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Sorry, I just couldn't resist the temptation.

[Sagitta]

I love merengue, especially when it's on top of a lemon merengue pie.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Sorry, I just couldn't resist the temptation.

Hey!! At least we know you are checking the salsa forum threads out. :D Since you already like one type of merengue can we interest you in trying out the kind that you do with a dance partner? :wink: :)

[SDsalsaguy]

I love merengue, especially when it's on top of a lemon merengue pie.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Sorry, I just couldn't resist the temptation.

Hey!! At least we know you are checking the salsa forum threads out. :D Since you already like one type of merengue can we interest you in trying out the kind that you do with a dance partner? :wink: :)
Can't both kinds be done with a partner? :wink:

[pygmalion]

LOL. Yes, I often share my lemon pies with a partner. Crazy man. :lol:

You know what amazes me? How long this thread has gotten. I thought it was a pretty simple topic, but you folks have given me a whole new perspective. Salsa forum in the house! :D

[Spicyentice4u]

Merengue with a bad rap?

Maybe the newer garbage. Personally I love Merengue, it is my favorite dance; seeing how I am a Dominican I was properly taught how to dance it. I am 19 years old, and very much enjoy attending concerts here in Tampa such as Fernandito Villalona(he also happens to be my favorite Latin artist). I might have 2 or 3 friends of mine(who are not dominican) who prefer salsa over merengue. Perhaps my sample population isn't sufficient, but speaking from it, it appears most of my friends prefer the older classy Merengue over salsa or the newer merengue and so do the gorgeous chicas =). Oro Solido is pretty popular around here, but I don't compare them to Fernandito.

By the way salsa-rythm, I would accept your challenge of a Merengue Dancing compitition with you! hehe

[Sagitta]

Welcome to df Spicyentice4u!! Glad to have you with us. :D

How about bachata? I remember a couple discussions on bachata recently and I am interested in what your perspective is on this.


How do you dance bachata? (http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=2842&highlight=bachata)

Bachata! :) (http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=2665&highlight=bachata)

bachatas
(http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=2591&highlight=bachata)

[salsarhythms]

Hey Spicyentice4u...

Where in DR are you from?

I was born in Bonao...so I was wondering...

Hey man, when I'm in Fl, I'll look you up and take you up on the
challenge... :D

No but seriously...I could not agree with you more with Fernandito...
I mean come on, I was named after the guy!!

Oro Solido did a lot of new things when they first came out, and with
its 24K records was able to go in different directions, but they really did
not get much respect from the Island until after a few years...

Fernandito will always be "El niño mimado..."

[Jack]

Pygmalion, Who teaches Merengue in our area? All you hear is Salsa but I want to get into Merengue later this year. Your thoughts?

[pygmalion]

If I remember correctly, Rhythmic Harmony Productions (Alberto and Selena Hoyas?) have a merengue/bachata half day workshop coming up soon. I'll check on the date and location. Most of the teachers around here don't bother to teach it. I don't think they get it.

When I figure out where I put the flyer, I'll post the info.


Jenn

[peachexploration]

Jack, if you're still attending the same school, they do offer it every once in a while. (At least twice when I was going there) So ask Mike, they're probably waiting on enough students to offer the class again. They also offer bachata if you're interested :D

[pygmalion]

And your former teacher just gave a merengue shines class social before last. I bet she could be talked into doing it again. It was fun.

[Jack]

we are going to have a practice party here in april, merengue lessons, then salsa party, Ive been waiting for some merengue!

Yeah Baby!

[peachexploration]

we are going to have a practice party here in april, merengue lessons, then salsa party, Ive been waiting for some merengue!

Yeah Baby!
Way Cool!!! :banana:

[tsb]

As far as the dance and it being "easy"...

Salsa is definately a more complex dance and music, but trust me
there is beauty in simplicity...and what seems simple to do, is not
always "simple to do"...
Right, there is alot more to Merengue than just the 1, 2 step. Not everybody can do it. At least not around me. :lol:

give them all wedgies and tell them they can't use their hands to loosen...

[pygmalion]

You are demented! :lol: :lol:

[tsb]

my dance instructor (originally from south america) told me that was to dance merengue. the bottom line is that they're laughing so hard they don't pay attention to anything other than the basic beat & certainly aren't overly worried about doing it correctly, etc...

[ShyDancer]

I have read thru this entire topic with great interest.

I had nothing against merengue when I knew a few basics...now I am learning the more intricate moves its driving me beserk!
The technique/body movements are like nothing I have ever learnt before, its really tricky! They seem to be a lot different than Salsa and Mambo....are they supposed to be similar?
It is SO much more than the "easy" 1, 2 step..

It takes me a while to warm up and let it flow..please tell me this goes with time and practice!

[Sagitta]

It gets better!! I've been away from a month and my second latin night was a lot better. By next week I should know all the rueda moves that I lost, and have my dances a lot smoother. Just like for merengue...a little time...a little more music....soem more dancing...it all comes to you...to me...to all who want it to... :)

[redhead]

Merengue is hot and fun... with the live band. Have you notuced they take their energy for playing merengue from your dancing?

[Sagitta]

Okay we have a live band next Tuesday, so we'll see how much hotter and steamier teh merengue can get.

[redhead]

Sagitta.. Do you mean you usually dance without live music? :shock:

[Sagitta]

Yes. Dj music is not live music for me. One of the problems of being in a small place, I guess, but at least it usually is free or really cheap.

[cocodrilo]

Where I'm at, it is a true luxury to get to dance to a live band!
You all are lucky!

[D-spot]

Common complaint
'this merengue is going on forever'
Certainly seems as if the songs last longer than salsa tunes. True or false?
If the songs were shorter (more could be played of course) then people could take the natural break to swap partners, leave the floor, whatever, allowing for more variety.
(I only listen to the stuff played in clubs somy experience is limited).
D-spot
(seeking enlightment)

[squirrel]

:)) sometimes it si so, D-spot... but you can always stop, right?!
I personally dance very little on merengue, but this is because I'm usually tired when they play merengue... Still, I have my favourite songs and dance on them always...