Cha cha cha...West Coast Swing...

[Catarina]

While dancing a cha cha cha last night (on1), the lead asked me if I danced West Coast Swing. I do not. When I asked him what prompted the question, he just said, "it's just how you move."

Anyone care to give me clarity on where his comment may have come from? I've only watched a handful of WCS videos online & really like them, really like the style, but don't really know how somebody would have pegged my cha cha cha style as WCS.
Sorry, don't have any videos of myself dancing to offer up.

[tangotime]

While dancing a cha cha cha last night (on1), the lead asked me if I danced West Coast Swing. I do not. When I asked him what prompted the question, he just said, "it's just how you move."

Anyone care to give me clarity on where his comment may have come from? I've only watched a handful of WCS videos online & really like them, really like the style, but don't really know how somebody would have pegged my cha cha cha style as WCS.
Sorry, don't have any videos of myself dancing to offer up.



It may have vaguely resembled a coaster

[Sagitta]

One can do cha cha cha to west coast music and vice versa. As a person who really loves cha cha cha I can attest to that. Cha cha cha encourages playing with the music...it has that syncopation that a lot of west coast has. There are quite a few west coast dancers who have enjoyed cha cha chas with me...when they really don't do it. So, I can see depending on how you dance cha cha cha a person who deos west coast could think you might do that.

[dansah]

It may not exactly be a compliment (no offense meant). Chacha timing is 4&1 emphasis on one. WCS timing is more even thru the "triple step". Not being a mind reader but the absence of the staccato rhythm in some followers' chacha does remind me of WCS dancing and I've noted that some WCS follows that don't do a lot of Chacha tend to slur thru the 4&1. BTW, chacha is an ON2 dance. You can dance it ON1 but it feels better and is meant to be danced ON2. So your leader might not be the best person from whom to judge styling. Again, since this is just guessing without much info, I don't mean to be harsh.

[tangotime]

BTW, chacha is an ON2 dance. You can dance it ON1 but it feels better and is meant to be danced ON2. .




A lot of Cubans would give you an argument on that topic--and-- it depends if its written in a Guajira rhythm , placing it on 1-- the original form of " Cha ".

Most of todays music is written in a syncop. "pick up note " bar-- but-- there are several recordings by various artists ( latino ) that have been recorded in the original format .

[Catarina]

It may not exactly be a compliment (no offense meant). Chacha timing is 4&1 emphasis on one. WCS timing is more even thru the "triple step". Not being a mind reader but the absence of the staccato rhythm in some followers' chacha does remind me of WCS dancing and I've noted that some WCS follows that don't do a lot of Chacha tend to slur thru the 4&1. BTW, chacha is an ON2 dance. You can dance it ON1 but it feels better and is meant to be danced ON2. So your leader might not be the best person from whom to judge styling. Again, since this is just guessing without much info, I don't mean to be harsh.

there is no offense taken! I prefer to dance cha cha on2 by leaps & bounds, but am bound to the timing my lead will dance :( That makes sense about the accent on the triple step.

[Catarina]

It may have vaguely resembled a coaster
Not sure what you mean by this? (not familiar with the term & to what it refers...)

[Catarina]

One can do cha cha cha to west coast music and vice versa. As a person who really loves cha cha cha I can attest to that. Cha cha cha encourages playing with the music...it has that syncopation that a lot of west coast has. There are quite a few west coast dancers who have enjoyed cha cha chas with me...when they really don't do it. So, I can see depending on how you dance cha cha cha a person who deos west coast could think you might do that.

Hmmmm. I feel like I do mark/accent the syncopation clearly as I dance--I think it looks so neat when I've seen others dance it that way, and have tried to emulate that as I dance. Is there something in how break steps are done that could be similar between WCS & cha cha cha?

[dancin/dj]

It may not exactly be a compliment (no offense meant). Chacha timing is 4&1 emphasis on one. WCS timing is more even thru the "triple step". Not being a mind reader but the absence of the staccato rhythm in some followers' chacha does remind me of WCS dancing and I've noted that some WCS follows that don't do a lot of Chacha tend to slur thru the 4&1. BTW, chacha is an ON2 dance. You can dance it ON1 but it feels better and is meant to be danced ON2. So your leader might not be the best person from whom to judge styling. Again, since this is just guessing without much info, I don't mean to be harsh. I disagree that CHA CHA feels better on the 1, i know Ballroom teaches on 2, i even know Tito Puente said the same thing(famous timbale player) perhaps the best bar non.but i disagree i think the 1 is more natural, easier to teach, to Anybody, right away, as a matter of fact im teaching tonight at the old Woodbine inn in pensauken now calle SAVOY, im teaching cha cha and dj, anyway, im not saying 2 is not very cool, i can do both but perfer 1, unless someone is really really good on 2.anyway like saggita has said sometimes west coast &cha cha can be done in the same song, way cool, im not sure what you dance like danash, but i or others could tell u if we saw what u do.

[chachachacat]

On 2 is how the music goes!

On 1 is just lazy!

[tangotime]

Not sure what you mean by this? (not familiar with the term & to what it refers...)

Basic in WC swing

[tangotime]

Chacha timing is 4&1 emphasis on one.

.

Thats not the issue-- ALL downbeats at the beginning of a bar are on 1-- the SYNCOPATION is what the dances " stress " is upon-- in this case ( if written with a "pickup " between the bars ) is 4 and 1--- IF its Guajira, then the syncop, is contained IN the bar-- as in 1, 2,--3 and 4 ( originating from triple Mambo cha,s origin)

[dancin/dj]

On 2 is how the music goes!

On 1 is just lazy! well in your opinion, but your ballroom trained, (so was i in the past) im someone who like"s to bet people in the sense of put your money where you mouth is. here"s my bet. lets go anywhere in the world and you teach cha cha on 2 for 30 min to a group of people and i'll teach on 1 to a group of people(who are not dancers) i'll bet you 10, 000, my people will dance cha cha pretty much right away, while your group after 30 min will still be confused of how to break on the 2.people say the same about salsa, its supposed to be on the 2 and its called mambo, you purists crack me up, i've dj in princeton for all latin dances and watched so called well known latin teachers teach on 2 mabo /salsa whatever you want to call it(i teach salsa myself) and i watch as the dj these teachers who teach on 2, and by the end of a hour out of 80 people taking the class i think 5 are dancing on 2, but i"ve taught on 1 at princeton(and others) and seen people doing on 1 right away. im not saying on 2 is not (right) is just harder to learn straight up, it may be lazy but if people are havin FUN and some of them looking good who cares? only purists.

[chachachacat]

Who cares? They are doing it wrong! They are not dancing to the music!
All you have to do is hold one, step two. Big deal.

Then I get those students who want to learn cha cha and "they know a little", which is progressive, and "12, cha cha cha."
Now, YOU take these folks and teach them the right way. Then you have confusion.

If I had to teach a one-time only large group, I'd make it as easy as possible , but I would not foxtrot with the timing!

[dancin/dj]

Who cares? They are doing it wrong! They are not dancing to the music!
All you have to do is hold one, step two. Big deal.

Then I get those students who want to learn cha cha and "they know a little", which is progressive, and "12, cha cha cha."
Now, YOU take these folks and teach them the right way. Than you have confusion.

If I had to teach a one-time only large group, I'd make it as easy as possible , but I would not foxtrot with the timing! i still disagree there not doing it wrong, just a tempo break in the timing,do u play a instument? i do for 30 years quitar & bass, its NOT out of timing, and as a footnote watch line dancers here in philly do cha cha line dances on 1, they been doing the dances for 30+ years i've never heard anybody say there out of time(not everyone who does the line dances ) but as a whole. why teach them on 2 right away? most folks do NOT want to learn Ballroom.ps i like Ballroom.

[chachachacat]

Okay, fine. You teach your way and I'll teach my way.

[tangotime]

i still disagree there not doing it wrong, just a tempo break in the timing,do u play a instument? i do for 30 years quitar & bass, its NOT out of timing,



and as a footnote watch line dancers here in philly do cha cha line dances on 1, they been doing the dances for 30+ years i've never heard anybody say there out of time(not everyone who does the line dances ) but as a whole. why teach them on 2 right away? most folks do NOT want to learn Ballroom.ps i like Ballroom.





What musicians play and what dancers DO are not related in the same sense -- once again-- in TODAYS music by and large, the syncop ( youre a musician ? )is 1,2,3,4 AND 1,2,3,4-- thats a musical fact NOT an opinion


If youre talking Guajira ,as I stated -- different musical construction.


And PLEASE-- dont quote Line dancers, in general - what they know about dance structure is like comparing dancers to bowling .( Ive taught enough of them to know ! )


lastly, I dont mind what anyone teaches the break on, as long as they realise that there is a difference , and are doing it for specific reasons ( expediency ) but should ALWAYS tell their students why .

[Dancelf]

If youre talking Guajira ,as I stated -- different musical construction.


It seems to me that having some of these around would be good for ear training. Can you provide specific song examples, preferably those which are readily available on-line?

[tangotime]

It seems to me that having some of these around would be good for ear training. Can you provide specific song examples, preferably those which are readily available on-line?


I doubt many if any are on line ( a DJ as well as a teacher so have a library of older stufff )

heres a couple of song titles--- the " classic " Guantanamera " recorded before '56, and there are other recordings in the same timing . Plus . a CD-- " The Music of Cuba " has several, notably " Guajira Habana " .

If you want more-- go to " descarga " the NY distibutor has a wide variety ,


it may sound very much the same to the untrained ear, but you will hear the distinct syncop. if you listen closely .

The old triple mambo has its syncop. in the same bar structure, which is primarily a Son Guajira rhythm--- slowed down-- became Guajira which became Cha ( with syncop change )

The Guajira is danced fairly frequently in some of the clubs in Tampa ( lotsa Cubans )

[dancin/dj]

tangotime i know you have experiance with teaching, (so do i ) as its seems chachacat does also.i also know you"ve taught more people than me, my problem is NOT letting people know the difference, my problem is when you, and others come from lets say(proper tech viewpoint) which i know is valid, and i dont disagree from those Facts or rules, its just you& others dont see most people do not care outside of ballroom or other dances(they want to have fun) and they want it easy. so let people dance on 1 or 2 Back to chachakat im speaking to, unless you all want to go up to millions of people and tell them there wrong and there having a good time is not valid.

[tangotime]

its just you& others dont see most people do not care outside of ballroom or other dances(they want to have fun) and they want it easy.





But thats where you are wrong again -- I , DO SEE -- have taught numerous times on 1-- the issue is the correctness of the method NOT its practicality .

And I trust all my lessons, no matter the genre ,are allways fun !.

I also teach Guajira -- which is on 1 , which gives me plurality in my teaching methods - and by the way-- whilst I was teaching down South-- 95% of my club students were latinos- PRs and Cubans .

I can-- and do-- switch " hats " as the occasion arises , and am able to choose from 4 different styles, to hopefullly suit all needs .

[dancin/dj]

But thats where you are wrong again -- I , DO SEE -- have taught numerous times on 1-- the issue is the correctness of the method NOT its practicality .

And I trust all my lessons, no matter the genre ,are allways fun !.

I also teach Guajira -- which is on 1 , which gives me plurality in my teaching methods - and by the way-- whilst I was teaching down South-- 95% of my club students were latinos- PRs and Cubans .

I can-- and do-- switch " hats " as the occasion arises , and am able to choose from 4 different styles, to hopefullly suit all needs . well now tangotime, why did'nt you say that before? then we have no problem between us, i admire that you can/ & do both, shoot i"d take some on 2 lessons from you if your ever here again. but i still take umbrage with chachakats view point.hey how do u spell umbrage? i know what it means lol.

[Steve Pastor]

"the issue is the correctness of the method NOT its practicality"

Please, instructors, do your level best to teach correctly.

[Alias]

It is relevant to relate a generic Cha-cha-cha "on 1" with West Coast Swing (or a Swing dance with 8 counts moves) as you fall in the general pattern (step-step, triple-step, step-step, triple-step) with timing (1-2, 3-and-4, 5-6, 7-and-8), with the rock-step as a kind of step-step and the cha-cha-cha as a kind of triple-step.

When you learn a Cha-cha-cha "on 1", you may think of it as having four parts which are almost separated (rock-step, cha-cha-cha, rock-step, cha-cha-cha), this going well (you then think) with some 4/4 music where the 4/4 measure (bar) is made of two parts (and you can think of the music as a sequence of two beats units) (the "and" has also to find a way in the music), the same thing going for some Swing dances (with a (step-step, triple-step, step-step, triple-step) basic step) and music for them.

I have a different impression when learning to do the Int. Ballroom Cha-cha-cha "on 2" with timing (2-3 4-and-1 2-3 4-and-1) where for instance you maybe kind of link more the 3 with the 4 (and don't the 2-3-4 belong together in some way), but this may be because I relate it to the Int. Ballroom Rumba (disclaimer: I am not a Ballroom expert).

Another funny thing to point out is that we also can in some way relate the Ballroom Cha-cha-cha with the Ballroom Mambo (I leave it as an exercise to the reader), so what about the idea that the Cha-cha-cha would be playing with the Swing dances world with its "on 1" version and with the Salsa/Mambo dance world with its "on 2" version?

Could we consider these as two different Cha-cha-cha, and one or the other may be more adequate depending on the music you're dancing Cha-cha-cha to?

[dancin/dj]

alias i like what you said about how the 2 different cha cha cha s being adequate for different music, well said.

[tangotime]

Could we consider these as two different Cha-cha-cha, and one or the other may be more adequate depending on the music you're dancing Cha-cha-cha to?



How YOU accent a bar of music, does not necessarily denote the " style " of the dance-- in some cases only preference-- the music should determine the " accent " to be stressed , and thus the "style ".

The reason for the musical changes in many dances,was the advent of "new" musical ideas being introduced--two e,g,-- Tango changing from 2/4 and Q.Step doing the same--- as did Guajira change, when the Syncopation was re written within the octave, to become what is now known as Cha .

The roots of dances speak volumes about its construction, with the music usually taking a simple format and expanding it thru innovation. Subsequently, the basic dance stucture begins to explore new ideas, and implements those that work for the premise .

This is a large part of the reason why the controversy exists between the " purists " and the latter day protagonists .

Jazz influences in the 60s created a new paradigm, when introduced into established partnership dances , Mambo to Salsa was the end product, hence the shift to 1 in many cases .(but thats a whole other issue )

[chachachacat]

I have taught for twenty years as certified and properly trained teacher.
Not only do I know the American syllabus, and a lot of the International as well, I also know West Coast Swing, Salsa, Argentine Tango, Nightclub two step, etc. I have been trained by major champions from England and the US.

I know there are "street dancers" and "studio dancers."

What those who have no training do is not my business.

I know cha cha is widely abused with this 1, 2, cha cha cha bit.
I think my ex even used it with his seniors to make it "easier" for them.
That doesn't make it right.

[dancin/dj]

I have taught for twenty years as certified and properly trained teacher.
Not only do I know the American syllabus, and a lot of the International as well, I also know West Coast Swing, Salsa, Argentine Tango, Nightclub two step, etc. I have been trained by major champions from England and the US.

I know there are "street dancers" and "studio dancers."

What those who have no training do is not my business.

I know cha cha is widely abused with this 1, 2, cha cha cha bit.
I think my ex even used it with his seniors to make it "easier" for them.
That doesn't make it right. i think u need to let it go, some of us here have experiance too, you cant get past ballroom & another form of cha cha, this is why salsa dancers laugh at ballroom salsa(i luv ballroom in its higher forms personally) ballroom trys to turn everything into proper dance form, please enough with its wrong, its wrong to YOU.

[Steve Pastor]

While it's been mildly amusing to read some of these posts, let's look again at the question that was posed...


While dancing a cha cha cha last night (on1), the lead asked me if I danced West Coast Swing. I do not. When I asked him what prompted the question, he just said, "it's just how you move."

Anyone care to give me clarity on where his comment may have come from?

Is there something in how break steps are done that could be similar between WCS & cha cha cha?

I assume you were following, Catarina, so if by "break step" you mean the first step in a basic pattern - the first walk step in the walk, walk - you started forward when you were asked to by the lead. So I don't think it had anything to do with that. (This assumes you WERE following the lead and waiting for it, not trying to fit your movement into something you thought you were supposed to be doing. If you weren't following the lead or waiting for it...)

My guess would be that you weren't very "latin" in how you moved. Rather, you had a more casual West Coast sort of laid back look and feel.

Maybe you guys can have some fun discussing that one!

[kayak]

While dancing a cha cha cha last night (on1), the lead asked me if I danced West Coast Swing. I do not. When I asked him what prompted the question, he just said, "it's just how you move."

Anyone care to give me clarity on where his comment may have come from? I've only watched a handful of WCS videos online & really like them, really like the style, but don't really know how somebody would have pegged my cha cha cha style as WCS.
Sorry, don't have any videos of myself dancing to offer up.

I have no dance credentials at all :D However, I would think that your dance partner was referring to the way you feel and move.

Regardless of if he didn't know or chose to dance chacha on1, I think the feeling of someone with compression and leverage is different at most social levels of wcs and chacha. I notice the leverage/compression concepts coming back in to chacha at a more advanced stage, but they are central to wcs from the very beginning. In fact, wcs sort of doesn't work without it, but you can chacha quite happily with good frame; at least up to a certain point.

The other difference in movement I notice is the true ballroom chacha dancers have very sharp, snappy motions in turns and breaks. I notice wcs and country dancers doing chacha have smoother, more relaxed body motions.

A similar difference is some of my dance partners can figure out that I learned to 2-step and then Foxtrot. They notice my path around the dance floor is more direct and less angled. So they can pick out my dance roots by my choice of paths around the floor.

[dancin/dj]

ha im always annoyed at the way some people like to chastise like were little kids, now now children im amused but, i"LL refrain from certain words according to respect of the board, disagreement is not wrong, insults certainly are, be specific with whom your adressing, after all im NOT the one making radical statements about timing and dance(i"ve clearly have shown both sides of the coin) others have NOT. sure we went off topic, when someone writes with un bias both sides of the coin, it gets shot down but 100 words of male logic,and that goes for women too if she goes there.

[Catarina]

While it's been mildly amusing to read some of these posts, let's look again at the question that was posed...


While dancing a cha cha cha last night (on1), the lead asked me if I danced West Coast Swing. I do not. When I asked him what prompted the question, he just said, "it's just how you move."

Anyone care to give me clarity on where his comment may have come from?

Is there something in how break steps are done that could be similar between WCS & cha cha cha?

I assume you were following, Catarina, so if by "break step" you mean the first step in a basic pattern - the first walk step in the walk, walk - you started forward when you were asked to by the lead. So I don't think it had anything to do with that. (This assumes you WERE following the lead and waiting for it, not trying to fit your movement into something you thought you were supposed to be doing. If you weren't following the lead or waiting for it...)

My guess would be that you weren't very "latin" in how you moved. Rather, you had a more casual West Coast sort of laid back look and feel.

Maybe you guys can have some fun discussing that one!

thanks for responding to the original question--that sort of makes sense, along with what kayak commented about in the feel of the dancing. I do try to keep my movements more smooth, and while the steps are each pronounced, i'm not bouncing/moving up and down vertically much at all, which may make it seem smoother.
are the terms "compression and leverage" specific to wcs/swing dancing in general? if so, i'll just do a search and look them up, if not, kayak, can you explain those for me? (no need to be redundant to the forum though if it's elsewhere numerous times already).

[kayak]

are the terms "compression and leverage" specific to wcs/swing dancing in general? if so, i'll just do a search and look them up, if not, kayak, can you explain those for me? (no need to be redundant to the forum though if it's elsewhere numerous times already).

Hopefully, the more experienced dancers will add more here. However, my take is compression and leverage fit in a lot of different dances.

I would say one of the defining parts of wcs is the rubber band effect of having the energy of the two partners moving towards each other in the first half of a pattern and then away from each other in the second half. Reaching the feeling of leverage is a way of defining the stopping point before the next pattern begins.

As I have learned more about chacha, similar inward and outward energy is used between partners. So just doing a side basic, there is inward compression during the 4&1 and outward leverage energy on the 2,3. The cool thing about the tighter connection is it allows a guy to lead moves that break the standard rhythms that would be harder or maybe not possible with just a neutral frame.

What I notice is most social chacha dancers have a neutral frame until they have taken a lot of instructions. Just having a decent frame means we can dance a lot of fun chacha patterns. In wcs, there is more emphasis on the compression leverage ideas at the very novice levels because even leading a basic sugar push requires it. So it is kind of hard to have fun with the dance until we at least sort of get it.

How did I do with that description?

[Catarina]

How did I do with that description?
not sure if you're asking for my opinion, but to me, it makes good sense. thank you!

[Steve Pastor]

It took me a long time to find the following explanation. I looked for it because I was troubled by something I think is new, women telling me that I shouldn't be "pulling" them.

West Coast Swing can be danced to almost any music written in 4/4 time at speeds ranging from very slow to very fast, but the character of the dance changes over that range. At the slowest speeds the dance tends to exhibit a highly elastic connection with the possibility of very sexy, "slinky" walks for the lady, and a slight backward leaning poise at the full extent of the connection. At faster speeds the partners become more upright and the connection shortens with more of a "push and pull" feel and look.

Notice that there is nothing about leverage here. So, I'm also going to ask kayak what he means by "leverage", cause I don't get it.

Compression, sure. I know the Sugar Push is taught to beginners, but it's like the cruzada in Argentine Tango. Way too many women don't get it (probably guys, too), and they don't create any compression for the push.
Elastic, as in the quoted material makes sense to me, a streched rubber band (or are they elastic bands now?) being the analogy.
Even the whip uses the elastic effect. There's no compression because the partners then move pass each other.

But leverage? Are you using this term to mean "at the farthest extent of the connection"?

[kayak]

I believe the way leverage would be defined is a settling away from each other of our lower body centers so that you can feel an away tension in your frame. Hopefully, that sounds kind of OK to the pros?

If we were thinking about basic 6-count patterns, I set the stopping point of the space between me and my partner on count 4 by putting a plumb bob below my left hand. At that point, I should not let my hand move forward or backward. On counts 5& we are positioning ourselves and on 6 we settle our lower body center way to create a feeling of leverage in our connection.

The reason creating leverage is more important than anchoring is so many of the cool moves do not have a formal anchor. Still, they all create the feeling of leverage.

Also, the huge advantage of actually getting to proper leverage is we can really start to play with the rhythms in the music. So with leverage, the lady doesn't come forward until led and then there really isn't a choice but to come forward. The lead to bring her forward is a steady arm (no pulling) and leading with the whole body backward.

We will have to see what Vince, Dnice and Dancelf have to add :)

[Dancelf]

We will have to see what Vince, Dnice and Dancelf have to add :)

Yes, yes we will.

As usual, there isn't really a standard vocabulary. However, the best instructor I know describes the common concepts as compression and extension, reserving leverage for those circumstances where one or both dancers are no longer capable of supporting their own balance. So please indulge me if the vocabulary seems alien.

Compression and extension are precisely the same concept, but in opposite directions. Both describe a circumstance where your center is offset slightly from the location of your support on the floor. Essentially, the body is bracing itself against the lead, but on a very small scale.

This is the body action an experienced west coast swing leader will use when he wants to change the linear momentum of the follower.

(sidebar)

The arms are part of the communication of the lead, but they aren't actually generating any of it. (Analogy: the arms are the steering wheel, not the accelerator/brake). A follower complaining of being pulled is probably reacting to the leader trying to create momentum using the muscles of the arm.

Now, I'm not going to tell you that you cannot achieve a good lead using only the arm. But to do so requires a lot of practice, that can only begin after you understand what the lead is supposed to feel like - and this understanding usually comes by learning to lead the "right" way... and once you can do that, what's the arm lead for?

(/sidebar)

Proximity really doesn't figure into the equation at all - fundamentally we're talking about shapes: is the partnership making a \/ or an /\? It doesn't matter whether the shape is \/ or \---/.

There are a couple of benefits that come about from this. First is that the lead becomes a lot smoother - a consequence of the properties of inertia. Second, the actual connection becomes more sensitive to small changes in the distribution of weight in the support; translation: partner can feel where your feet are, and can actually match your weight changes on touch alone.

I believe the way leverage would be defined is a settling away from each other of our lower body centers

Ugh - I hate this definition for two reasons. First, I don't like "lower body centers" - I don't know what it means, strongly suspect that it doesn't mean anything, and am nearly certain that if it does mean anything, what it means is wrong for this context. What we are really doing is adjusting our center relative to our support WITHOUT changing the relationship between our center and our head and WITHOUT changing the relationship between our center and our hips.

Second, we've substituted a verb for a noun. There's no need for settling away indefinitely, being only a little bit settled is good enough. Extension is the position, not the verb of achieving it.


So with leverage, the lady doesn't come forward until led and then there really isn't a choice but to come forward.

Unfortunately, no to both of these - unless the follower has settled so far that she is depending on the leader for support, which is not the modern style. In extension, she can still come forward early or late, deliberately or not. We're still talking about physics and human physiology - not magic.

[Steve Pastor]

I consulted my dictionary, which has these definitions.

leverage - The action of a lever. (Boy that's helpful!)

lever - a simple machine consisting of a rigid body, usually a metal bar, pivoted on a fixed fulcrum.

So, I would not use the word leverage as kayak did.

compression and extension work for me, as does elasticity.

Regarding the use of arms...
If I keep my arm at approxinately the same angle when I take my first step of the "basic pattern", which is backwards on my left, the woman will feel a strong pull which is a direct consequence of my moving away from her .
Where I dance, and I dare say, most everywhere I've seen people dance socially, most dancers are very unconnected to the music.
(I read the other day in Wikipedia that music and dance being separate things is a Western concept. I find that a very interesting concept.)
The lack of connection with the music is most noticable when something is very fast or very slow. With very fast music you to take smaller steps and stay close to your partner. If you don't you won't be able to move forward in time, and it will feel like the man is pulling you.

Regarding "lower body centers", I'd have to say it's a valid concept. The feel of an anchor step is a direct result of doing this. It's a small thing, usually, that can be accomplished my letting your weight settle onto the entire foot, rather than being at the front of the foot, and/or bending the knees a bit more. If is not so, then the anchor step consists soley of cessation of movement.
(ps I became sensitized to this via Agentine Tango)

So with leverage, the lady doesn't come forward until led and then there really isn't a choice but to come forward.
If you want to have fun sometime, try moving towards your partner for "step one", rather than away.

"unless the follower has settled so far that she is depending on the leader for support, which is not the modern style"
You know, I wonder if the women who complained about me actually leading them to step foward at the Skippy Blair lesson I took learned "the modern style". To me, it felt like they wanted to do their steps on their own.
Sometimes I'll play with that connection by doing rock steps in place. There has to be SOME mutual support for that to happen. But it is not extreme or "total". But it "total support" the right term?

Dancelf, care to elaborate with approximate dates for when this "modern" development took place? If West Coast Swing becomes increasing less dependent on the connection...

And, I like this, and think it is right on...
"Second, the actual connection becomes more sensitive to small changes in the distribution of weight in the support; translation: partner can feel where your feet are, and can actually match your weight changes on touch alone."
But, isn't it a bit at odds with the previous paragraph?

[Dancelf]

So, I would not use the word leverage as kayak did.

There are all sort of terms used in dance which are at odds with definitions you'll find in dictionaries. Kayak's definition may be unfortunate, but it is a very common usage. "The name of the song is called Haddocks Eyes..."


If I keep my arm at approxinately the same angle when I take my first step of the "basic pattern", which is backwards on my left, the woman will feel a strong pull which is a direct consequence of my moving away from her.

Almost true. There are a couple important distinctions, which is one of the reasons I don't use the verb "pull" to describe this action. First, the inertia of your own body mass causes the acceleration of the movement to smooth out. Second, the tension in the musculature of the hand and arm is very different from a pull.


Sometimes I'll play with that connection by doing rock steps in place. There has to be SOME mutual support for that to happen.

I disagree - hint, dance your part in place, without holding onto anything. If you can do that, it doesn't depend on mutual support.


Dancelf, care to elaborate with approximate dates for when this "modern" development took place? If West Coast Swing becomes increasing less dependent on the connection...

OK, I think two things are being conflated. I interpreted Kayak's claim to be saying that what I've been calling leverage magically makes lead follow happen. Because the follower is supporting herself, there's no physical compulsion to come forward when lead (for example, she can syncopate...)

If the follower is actually depending on the leader from support, then she does have to follow (or fall, I suppose). To my knowledge, this has never been how WCS is danced... BUT westie is believed to derive from Lindy, which I believe has included that interdependence of balance. So I leave some wiggle room in case somebody who was dancing in the Garden of Eden has first hand experience that it was done differently.



And, I like this, and think it is right on...
"Second, the actual connection becomes more sensitive to small changes in the distribution of weight in the support; translation: partner can feel where your feet are, and can actually match your weight changes on touch alone."
But, isn't it a bit at odds with the previous paragraph?

I don't believe there is any contradiction, I certainly didn't intend any; can you be more clear?

[Steve Pastor]

I just posted a link to an Instructor's Manual another thread, and that instructor's manual also talks about leverage. Now, although I accept the common usage of syncopation in dance, I'll go with the dictionary on leverage and think this is an unfortunate instance of "dance educators" using a word incorrectly. Maybe it's not too late with this one.
This next one is a bit more complicated.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Pastor http://www.dance-forums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?p=523027#post523027)
And, I like this, and think it is right on...
"Second, the actual connection becomes more sensitive to small changes in the distribution of weight in the support; translation: partner can feel where your feet are, and can actually match your weight changes on touch alone."
But, isn't it a bit at odds with the previous paragraph?

I don't believe there is any contradiction, I certainly didn't intend any; can you be more clear?"

In Argentine Tango I am a connection junkie. And by that I mean a very real physical connection that facilitates non verbal communication, or communication via touch, which would be haptic.

How do you create a "good connection"? In the Argentine Tango style called apliado the bodies are connected by directing a fair amount of weight towards your partner and the connection occurs at the chest or even throughout the torso.
In West Coast Swing the "energy" or weight that creates the connection can be either towards each other as in the compression of the Sugar Push, or simply the weight of the woman's hand resting on the man's hand.
I can best feel my partner's steps and balance when there is something else to strengthen the connection. And that is the tautness of the muscles in her arm, shoulder, and probably back when there is some pull away from my hand.
This stenghtens my sense of her body (and not coincidently increases the tautness of her body giving me a better sense of her axis and amount of motion or lack thereof).
It's the equivalent of speaking in a conversational tone, rather than whispering.
Now, if you pull something towards you, and it doesn't go any where, the only way to off set that force is to "move" yourself away from what you are pulling on, ie to "lean backwards" (well, you can push downwards with your toes, too.

When we say something like "the follower is actually depending on the leader for support", it is of course a matter of degree. And we are talking not a whole lot here, but enough.
My concept is not so much that you can't "catch" yourself without moving your feet.
How's that for precision?

(Tangent Alert!
You've done the fall back thing at some point, or seen it? So far I've only done it in East Coast Swing, and my WCS partners look at me in horror when I even hint at going that way. Someone told me this weekend that they saw someone mixing Argentine Tango with Night Club Two Step. He said it looked really cool. I don't think he was surprised when I told him I was doing it a couple years ago with my then favorite dance partner who is now married. Darn.)

[kayak]

See Catarina, I told you there would be other good answers. I read dancelfs descriptions and they seem to be saying about the same thing from a different perspective.

As usual, there isn't really a standard vocabulary. However, the best instructor I know describes the common concepts as compression and extension, reserving leverage for those circumstances where one or both dancers are no longer capable of supporting their own balance. So please indulge me if the vocabulary seems alien.

No problem, lots of dancers around me seems to use leverage and extension interchangeably. So we can use extension. I may not be very good at dance descriptions, but I promise we don't have any ladies falling over :p

Proximity really doesn't figure into the equation at all - fundamentally we're talking about shapes: is the partnership making a \/ or an /\? It doesn't matter whether the shape is \/ or \---/.

I'm not a dance instructors, but it would seem to me that the reason so many pros emphasis making a clear set point on 4 is so the \/ or \----/ shape can be achieved. With both partners being responsible for their part of creating extension it might be more like \-|-/ where | sets the center point from which which each partner creates their extension.

Ugh - I hate this definition for two reasons. First, I don't like "lower body centers" - I don't know what it means, strongly suspect that it doesn't mean anything, and am nearly certain that if it does mean anything, what it means is wrong for this context. What we are really doing is adjusting our center relative to our support WITHOUT changing the relationship between our center and our head and WITHOUT changing the relationship between our center and our hips.

Second, we've substituted a verb for a noun. There's no need for settling away indefinitely, being only a little bit settled is good enough. Extension is the position, not the verb of achieving it.

Interesting, my dance instructors all talk a lot about three body centers (head, upper torso, lower torso) stacked like a snowman. I like snowmen. So it is a visualization that seems to stick. I think the tendency is for the \/ position to get exaggerated out of alignment. So moving the lower torso subtly back creates a cleaner extension that is more vertically aligned like you are describing.

All I know is there is a distinct difference in the very last moment of creating extension between dancing with ladies that have wcs nailed and those learning it. It is almost a locking in of the extension.

Again, we aren't settling away from each other indefinitely until our shoulders dislocate. Aggro swing doesn't come out until way late on Saturday nights at the bar right :)

Unfortunately, no to both of these - unless the follower has settled so far that she is depending on the leader for support, which is not the modern style. In extension, she can still come forward early or late, deliberately or not. We're still talking about physics and human physiology - not magic.

There are a couple of benefits that come about from this. First is that the lead becomes a lot smoother - a consequence of the properties of inertia. Second, the actual connection becomes more sensitive to small changes in the distribution of weight in the support; translation: partner can feel where your feet are, and can actually match your weight changes on touch alone.

These two comments seemed to be talking about the same part. So I combined them. OK, she might choose to do something different. The no choice idea wasn't a very good description. However, if we get the compression and extension part going, it sure is easier to be sensitive to smaller leads.

[kayak]

Just adding a little cross threaded reference to the new Hands Position thread. The link to Brandi Tobias' WCS manual uses the term Compression and Leverage. Her description is much like Dancelfs and the reasoning is to avoid the ladies having their shoulders too far back. Steve found an interesting link :D

[Dancelf]

Yup - that's definitely in agreement with how Brandi teaches (here's a more direct link (http://www.atlantaswingdancers.com/ASDC%20Instructor%20Manual.pdf). A lot of it, but not all of it, is in agreement with what Mario teaches. There are some bits I would definitely call into question, as I strongly suspect they fall into the category of "falsehoods that achieve the desired results more quickly than truth".


In West Coast Swing the "energy" or weight that creates the connection can be either towards each other as in the compression of the Sugar Push, or simply the weight of the woman's hand resting on the man's hand.

I can best feel my partner's steps and balance when there is something else to strengthen the connection. And that is the tautness of the muscles in her arm, shoulder, and probably back when there is some pull away from my hand.

Steve, you've got to do a better job of formatting and presenting your questions, otherwise the rest of us are just guessing. I'm going to try my best here, but if this is a complete miss I'm not going to feel like it's at all my fault...

Let's come at this obliquely. What characteristic does your "ideal partner" have that is relevant to connection? Answer: her hand, at rest by her side, is the same distance from the floor that yours is. When your partner has that property, you can connect even when there is no distance (by which I mean epsilon) between you, without having to compromise the arm line.

If you draw a couple of stick people on a piece of paper, you'll see that the hands can make effectively a circular arc depending on the length of each partner's arm. So the the furthest away you can be from each other is with the shorter armed dancer holding their arms straight forward at shoulder height, and the longer armed dancer however far away (s)he need to be to have his hands at the same height. The closest they can be is for the dancer with the higher hands to have their arms straight down, and for the dancer with the lower hands to be away at whatever distance allows them to lift their hands to the matching height.

So we can set our stick figures at some distance in between, and the connection will happen at the intersection of the two circular arcs (the lower intersection by convention - you could make the higher one work if you really had to, but you would likely tire much more quickly).

Now, if our stick figures hold their hands at that intersection, they'll touch, and even have the right hand hold, but they won't really connect in the sense that we mean, because there's a little bit of give in the flesh of the hand. To connect, we really want to take that slack out of the rope. Some of this effect is achieved by allowing the hands to respond to gravity (for the engineers in the audience, yes, it's the torque, rather than the force, that we are talking about here). We can make things more solid still by taking our centers (the entire snowman) very slightly away from each other. Very slightly means something between a centimeter and an inch.

If you look at this picture from the side, you'll see that the partners are helping to support each other's hands (if you break the connection the hands will naturally fall back to the dancer's sides), but they are not supporting partner's balance (if you break the connection in the hands, the dancers will stay put, rather than falling away from each other).

A very effective drill to demonstrate this is to connect to your partner, and stand with your feet together. With the tension created by the slightly displaced centers, the leader can make very subtle shifts of weight from one foot to the other (without moving the feet, of course) and the follower will easily match. (The first few times you work on this drill, you'll want the connection dialed to 10, but you are likely to be surprised at just how light you can go and still achieve the result).

This whole exercise in extension has it's evil twin in compression, where the shift of weight is forward by a centimeter to an inch, and the result is achieved by compressing the connection between the hands and the center, rather than elongating it.


So a whole lot of what you describe matches this very closely. However, I strongly object to the implications of "muscle". Describing it as an effect of muscle will cause beginning students to do work with their arms, which is uncomfortable and jerky (especially so because the arms become a substitute for moving the body mass); and it will cause intermediate student to put tension in their muscles, which is passable for linear leads, but creates problems for rotational leads (generally making them slower).

Remember, you can create an extension lead with a piece of rope, and rope doesn't have any muscle fibers in it. So something else much be going on. (Actually, doing the extension weight shift exercise with a rope would be interesting....)

Extension:rope :: Compression: ???? The fact that there isn't really a good answer there reflects why compression really is harder than extension.

[kayak]

Extension:rope :: Compression: ???? The fact that there isn't really a good answer there reflects why compression really is harder than extension.

Isn't pushing shopping carts and refrigerator doors the answer :D

[Dancelf]

Isn't pushing shopping carts and refrigerator doors the answer

I can't quite manage to persuade myself that having leaders run over followers with shopping carts is the answer to any question I want to ask.

[kayak]

... but lots of WCS dancers talk about working on compression with the refrig door or shopping cart. So there must be something to it? Maybe it just keep them closer to the beer ...

[Dancelf]

... but lots of WCS dancers talk about working on compression with the refrig door or shopping cart. So there must be something to it?

Oh there's plenty to it. Shopping carts with beer, refrigerators with beer, bar counters with beer... eventually you're completely stonkered under the table, but by then you've got it down.

However, it's not the same sort of demonstration. With the rope, the thing on the other end really is your partner, so you can see that it works, and if you are paying attention you can see how it works, and so forth.

With the shopping cart (a) you are unlikely to have one readily at hand while demonstrating for a class, (b) the cart itself suggests rigidity, which is not the idea I am after.

A hula hoop is almost the right answer, though what I think I'm really after is one of those big pool noodles, or maybe a big inflatable thing, like an over sized balloon-animal balloon.