Are musicians bad dancers?

[Gemini1357]

I've read at least once or twice as some kind of truism that "musicians are bad dancers", hmm.., seems kind of strange.

I manage to be a bad dancer without being a musician (newbie salsa, played violin, piano and trumpet maaaany years ago), and I do find my musicality to be an asset at least partially compensating for pathetic body control and lack of balance.

Musicality should be a good thing in dancing, plain and simple, so how could there be any truth to statements about musicians being bad dancers?

A flawed perception based on exaggerated expectations? Or are musicians in general not interested in music in the same way as dancers are? Other explanations for these statements?

[lcdancesport]

Are there any news sources to this finding? I would think being a musician would only help because they would easily find the beat, rhythm, tempo.

[lcdancesport]

Oh yeah and I did play the piano for a number of years so when I started dancing I could count things more easily with the tempo. When I teach new students I ask them if they hear the beat and some say they don't, so I point it out and count it until they do hear it. Without that background a teacher and/or student could have a more difficult time in that learning aspect.

Welcome to DF. :)

[cornutt]

I manage to be a bad dancer without being a musician (newbie salsa, played violin, piano and trumpet maaaany years ago), and I do find my musicality to be an asset at least partially compensating for pathetic body control and lack of balance.


Being pretty rough on yourself, aren't you? ;) Seriously, for the most part, I think it's an advantage; it certainly has been for me (keyboard/bass player). However, I do think there are some things that musicians have to "unlearn" in order to be a good dancer. When you play music, depending on what instrument you play, you learn to express the rhythm and melody with some combination of your head, your hands, and/or your feet, because those are the parts of your body that you use to manipulate the instrument or keep time. But in order to be a dancer, you have to take the focus off of those parts, and learn to express the music more through your entire body. One thing in particular that I had trouble with was that I had to stop keeping time by nodding my head (something that a lot of keyboard players do). As another for-instance, I can see that a brass or woodwind player might have to learn how to breathe differently.

[Chiron]

As a brass player of 14 years (9 of which I know I've worked on breathing) I'll agree breathing is different in dancing. When I play trumpet I'm trying to fill up my entire body, especially my gut. Something I shouldn't do when I dance since my partner is connected there. However, I won't say this is a disadvantage for me. Since I've spent so many hours/days/weeks working on breath control I've got decent control and change it without too much trouble. There is also the added advantage that when you finish of 5 dances and want to pant like a dog you can control your breath enough to look like you're doing fine. What has been hard for me is learning to relax and 'let go' of the beat. When I waltz I've had to learn to stretch out the 3 and I'm not going to even get into foxtrot...

[ThisIsNotMe]

I think that my music has definitely been an advantage in my dancing - and on the flip side, since I started dancing, my music has improved out of sight as well (the emotion was suddenly there). I know that music has helped my timing amazingly - being able to feel the beat without thinking about it, knowing what beat in the bar is which helps, and being able to recognise things like syncopation is really useful.
One thing I did have trouble with for a while was disconencting my brain from the music to a point - to stop analysing the music as I would if I were playing it and to feel it more. I found that this helped my playing music as well, as I had always been a very 'technical' musician, and since doing the 'disconnection' I found that I was more able to feel the emotion in the music, and really play to that. To me, dancing is so much more than playing music ever could be.

[elisedance]

Oh dear. I'm taking up the violin again - does that mean my dancing will get worse? :rolleyes:

[DrDoug]

I seem to remember hearing about a study that showed (via some sort of scanning) that musicians use different parts of their brains than non-musicians when they listen to music. That might be related.

[catsmeow]

In my limited time dancing, I have found that musicians are obsessed with the exact time of the beat. Unfortunately dancing is done between the beats.

[ThisIsNotMe]

In my limited time dancing, I have found that musicians are obsessed with the exact time of the beat. Unfortunately dancing is done between the beats.

Yeah, I can see how people would do that. I don't think that all musicians, however, would necessarily have that fixation. When they first start dancing, yes. But I think that as time goes on, you learn to separate dance from music (ie playing) and understand that they are very different things, requiring very different approaches. Having said that, dancing actually relaxed my approach to music a lot, making me a better musician in the long run. It teaches that music isn't all about 1,2,3,4, as such, it's more about the emotion and everything.

[tsb]

Oh dear. I'm taking up the violin again - does that mean my dancing will get worse? :rolleyes:


only if you have to stop and drain the saliva from your violin.

[tsb]

As a brass player of 14 years (9 of which I know I've worked on breathing) I'll agree breathing is different in dancing. When I play trumpet I'm trying to fill up my entire body, especially my gut. Something I shouldn't do when I dance since my partner is connected there. However, I won't say this is a disadvantage for me. Since I've spent so many hours/days/weeks working on breath control I've got decent control and change it without too much trouble. There is also the added advantage that when you finish of 5 dances and want to pant like a dog you can control your breath enough to look like you're doing fine. What has been hard for me is learning to relax and 'let go' of the beat. When I waltz I've had to learn to stretch out the 3 and I'm not going to even get into foxtrot...

asides from minimizing the abdominal breathing, i'd think that the breathing would improve one's lyricism; something string players don't necessarily get. case in point: a friend who plays string bass had a section leader who had the habit of taking a breath before the pickup into the next phrase. one day at rehearsal, the whole section decided to make fun of the section leader, and they proceeded to imitate him for the entire rehearsal. of course, after practice the conductor made a point of complimenting their lyricism as a section.

but just having music in one's background doesn't necessarily guarantee that that background will carry over; i'd hardly expect a musical diva to make a great dance partner any more than i'd expect it from someone who's been trained primarily as an individual (jazz, ballet/hiphop/whatever) dancer. but i'd expect someone who is a great accompanist/ensemble oriented type musician to have a head start in terms of temperment - they're already used to being in tune with what their partner(s) is/are doing, whereas i've observed some bands where other members didn't have the sense to get out of the way when someone else had the solo, and they'd be all over the place.

[tsb]

I think that my music has definitely been an advantage in my dancing - and on the flip side, since I started dancing, my music has improved out of sight as well (the emotion was suddenly there). I know that music has helped my timing amazingly - being able to feel the beat without thinking about it, knowing what beat in the bar is which helps, and being able to recognise things like syncopation is really useful.
One thing I did have trouble with for a while was disconencting my brain from the music to a point - to stop analysing the music as I would if I were playing it and to feel it more. I found that this helped my playing music as well, as I had always been a very 'technical' musician, and since doing the 'disconnection' I found that I was more able to feel the emotion in the music, and really play to that. To me, dancing is so much more than playing music ever could be.

i have more of this problem when i'm *not* dancing and just listening to music; then i'm into analyzing intonation, vowels, timbre or thinking "hey, that's an interesting chord substitution", etc. - that part of my mind diverts to floorcraft.

still, my composition/arranging background still rears its ugly head and i anticipate breaks where*i'd* put them which sometimes gets me in trouble. just last month i was watching a couple dance and i saw that the lead had anticipated a break which didn't happen. he was close enough to hear me call out to him: "hey, i thought there'd be a break there too", and he turned to look, then laughed and kept dancing.

[Rugby]

I have friends that are musicians and it really has held back their dancing. Catsmeow reminded me of this as the problem they have is fairly much what catsemeow said. They are adamant about the beat but do not realize that dancing is not so black and white. I once said to one that the moving of the body between the beat to arrive on the beat is liking taking a breath to create the note, or raising and lowering the arm between the beat to strike the drum on the beat. Dancing is the action between the beats which creates the dance. The one fellow always thinks his partner is off time as she wants to lower on the end of three in waltz to arrive on the one. He will not go until he hears the one which puts him behind the time. They go to a few instructors in both the U.S. and Canada and though they tell him that she is correct he will not listen as he is a musician and could never be off time.
I have spoken to some instructors about this and they all told me that they found that musicians having a more difficult time learning to dance was common. I read in a dance magazine, Dance Beat I believe, an article where a famous dancer mentions that he found musicians difficult to teach. The friends I have that I spoke of earlier are not just for fun but accomplished professional musicians. I will see if I can find the article and see what the person mentioned to be the problem. It was a few years back that I read it. I took music for two years playing the clarinet and I found that it has helped my dancing. Possibly since I was only a low level musician and not what I would call really experienced it has allowed me to be not so black and white in my thinking.

[danceronice]

The breathing and posture for singing and the breathing and posture for dance are almost antithetical. I also have a habit of thinking in phrases related to how I'd breathe playing a wind instrument or singing. Not helpful.

[jwlinson]

So...

Are dancers bad musicians?

[emily13]

Well, I play violin, piano, and alto sax, and obo. And I get very good comments about my dancing...

[cornutt]

only if you have to stop and drain the saliva from your violin.

At least you don't have to worry about it electrocuting you... :shock:

[tangotime]

Yeah, I can see how people would do that. I don't think that all musicians, however, would necessarily have that fixation. When they first start dancing, yes. But I think that as time goes on, you learn to separate dance from music (ie playing) and understand that they are very different things, requiring very different approaches.


Wish that were true !

Have taught in the past, 2 world class musicians ( one Symph. other ,drummer ) in both instances, they had the most difficult time keeping on time to the rhythm.

The symph. guy, took for many yrs, and always had problems with the smooth style dances .

Have had this experience, to a greater or lesser degree, with most of the musicians I have taught .

Recently taught a degreed music teacher ( specialised in Guitar ) who had one heck of a time in SINGLE TIME swing!!

We discussed at length, why those problems seem to exist in " trained " musicians-- we could only speculate, that their "ear" was trained to use accents in the music, differently than what would be required for dance application.

[ThisIsNotMe]

Wish that were true !

Have taught in the past, 2 world class musicians ( one Symph. other ,drummer ) in both instances, they had the most difficult time keeping on time to the rhythm.

The symph. guy, took for many yrs, and always had problems with the smooth style dances .

Have had this experience, to a greater or lesser degree, with most of the musicians I have taught .

Recently taught a degreed music teacher ( specialised in Guitar ) who had one heck of a time in SINGLE TIME swing!!

We discussed at length, why those problems seem to exist in " trained " musicians-- we could only speculate, that their "ear" was trained to use accents in the music, differently than what would be required for dance application.

Lol, I guess that I must be an exception to the rule then (well, maybe I'm a truly bad dancer...)! I'm a fully qualified piano teacher, as well as performer, and I play a number of other instruments too. The 'ear' is trained to use accents in one way for playing (ie, in 3/4 time, the accents are 'strong, weak, weak', and in 4/4 it's 'strong, weak, medium, weak') and for some people, this would cause a problem in dance. I know it did for my sister! But by the same token, my piano teacher was a very accomplished dancer (not in ballroom/latin), and I also know a lot of other musicians who dance. But again, maybe we're the exception, not the rule?

Oh my, I just realised how arrogant that sounded...like I was saying how god I was. Believe me, I know I still have a lot (a LOT) to learn, and I am by no means a great (or even a 'good') dancer...but I love dancing, and my music has definitely helped, rather than hindered me (err...mostly. I did have a few hurdles to overcome first)

[tangotime]

But by the same token, my piano teacher was a very accomplished dancer (not in ballroom/latin), and I also know a lot of other musicians who dance.


But again, maybe we're the exception, not the rule?





Of course -- it would be foolish to say ALL-- I gave some e.g. which I find unusual, given that it was their full time profession .

[elisedance]

only if you have to stop and drain the saliva from your violin.

The salaiva is not a problme - its all the earlobes I pick up on the end of my bow that slow me down...

[tsb]

At least you don't have to worry about it electrocuting you... :shock:

not if i had a pickup installed.

[pnoisette]

it also depends on what kind of music a musician's specialization. I am a concert level classical pianist who has difficulty with what I find to be the rather mechanical adherence to tempo in ballroom. A classical piece may have a, say, 3/4, or 4/e tempo, but through out the piece there may be a wide range of how the 3/4 may be played out as designated by the composer in the middle of a piece through the use off terms like allegro assai, rubato or con brio depending on the emotive or psychological vision of the piece. As I am trained to listen to the message of the music and respond to this with tempi variations I am frequently in trouble with my ballroom pro for not adhering to "strict tempo."

[Stillharbor]

I'm a singer, and while I find it helps finding and keeping the rthyme, I find counting out the beats a little odd. Singers usually count beats on holds, not throughout.

Most the people who have difficulities with dancing have difficulties with the beat. They have no sense of rthyme.

[Chris Stratton]

I am a concert level classical pianist who has difficulty with what I find to be the rather mechanical adherence to tempo in ballroom.

This seems to me to be an example of a common problem problem in initially moving between different but overlapping disciplines - basically, the primary generally recognized artistic freedom is in a different dimension in each. As a pianist playing a fixed composition, you aren't supposed to change the notes, but you are free to be expressive in articulation and tempo. As a dancer, the tempo is given to you, but you can be expressive in articulation, and choreography, or even if you fix the routine in it's placement and presentation.

Sure, at the level of ultimate mastery you may gain greater freedom. But only a small fraction of involved people are at that level, and even if you are ready to be expressive in an unusual direction based on experience in another area, you may not encounter teachers who've ever thought about that, while they will have more basic-to-dancing issues to push.

In a way, dancing might be like taking you off the concert stage, taking away your pre-composed piece, and putting you in a jazz club with a bass and drummer who are going to give you fixed chord changes at a fixed tempo (for some reason they aren't listening to you - oh, turns out they are a recording) and your job is to improvise a solo over this. You can play with timing as well as melody, but only in relation to what they are providing you - you can't change the basic tempo. Might not be your cup of tea as a musician, but it probably would be a good fit for the expressive skills of other musicians who've specialized in that direction rather than classical.

But that doesn't mean you can't find dancing opportunities that better fit your expressive interests. You could for example do a show number, pick a piece with tempo variations that you find expressive and vary the mechanics of the dancing to track them, quite possibly changing dances as the music changes.

[DrDoug]

I am frequently in trouble with my ballroom pro for not adhering to "strict tempo."

In my last lesson, I got in trouble for "mechanically" adhering to the beat. This was dancing foxtrot to an old popular song. The teacher wanted me to dance to the melody as sung by the vocalist. Unfortunately, for typical foxtrot music, I don't experience the melody, I experience the rhythm; the melody is just a device to keep the rhythm moving. Waltz, on the other hand, is a good dance to try dancing to the melody.

[seffy08]

However, I do think there are some things that musicians have to "unlearn" in order to be a good dancer. When you play music, depending on what instrument you play, you learn to express the rhythm and melody with some combination of your head, your hands, and/or your feet, because those are the parts of your body that you use to manipulate the instrument or keep time. But in order to be a dancer, you have to take the focus off of those parts, and learn to express the music more through your entire body. One thing in particular that I had trouble with was that I had to stop keeping time by nodding my head (something that a lot of keyboard players do). As another for-instance, I can see that a brass or woodwind player might have to learn how to breathe differently.

Hehe. I had the exact same problem. Mine wasnt just my head though. I keep time playing bass by crazy dancing to my music (think Bez of Happy Mondays). Shoulders swaying, elbows fanning in and out, it was crazy. Took some time to learn to control it XD But its guud now.

I've found playing bass and the drums useful for learning to dance (esp in understanding the timing). I deal a lot with syncopations, delayed beats (plenty of that in reggae), etc. so dancing between beats wasnt really much of a problem. Knowing how to break down a beat (ie 1e&a2&a3&4) helped too. Its pretty much like dancing really. You have the beat but instead of inserting notes, you insert your steps.

[Gemini1357]

Hmm..., I kind of find this blog post from "The Unlikely Salsero" to give a good hint about an explanation of sorts, if there is any truth in these sayings about musicians and their lack of dancing.

http://www.unlikelysalsero.com/2007/11/musicians-dont-dance.html

Musicians might be less inclined to pick up dancing, since they already master one way of using the music, and perhaps don't really see as much of a point in learning another completely different instrument.

Especially since they perhaps take music very seriously, and have a better idea of how much effort and dedication it takes to become really good at it. As excellent musicians with high standards, perhaps they also find very little pleasure in dancing badly?

[Don Silver]

I have friends that are musicians and it really has held back their dancing. Catsmeow reminded me of this as the problem they have is fairly much what catsemeow said. They are adamant about the beat but do not realize that dancing is not so black and white. I once said to one that the moving of the body between the beat to arrive on the beat is liking taking a breath to create the note, or raising and lowering the arm between the beat to strike the drum on the beat. Dancing is the action between the beats which creates the dance. The one fellow always thinks his partner is off time as she wants to lower on the end of three in waltz to arrive on the one. He will not go until he hears the one which puts him behind the time. They go to a few instructors in both the U.S. and Canada and though they tell him that she is correct he will not listen as he is a musician and could never be off time.
I have spoken to some instructors about this and they all told me that they found that musicians having a more difficult time learning to dance was common. I read in a dance magazine, Dance Beat I believe, an article where a famous dancer mentions that he found musicians difficult to teach. The friends I have that I spoke of earlier are not just for fun but accomplished professional musicians. I will see if I can find the article and see what the person mentioned to be the problem. It was a few years back that I read it. I took music for two years playing the clarinet and I found that it has helped my dancing. Possibly since I was only a low level musician and not what I would call really experienced it has allowed me to be not so black and white in my thinking.

A few thoughts on this one: There are a hundred levels of being a musician, just like dancers. The truth is most musicians don't dance well, and some of it is it takes time and effort to be a reasonable dancer. If you play an instrument well, you understand the music, but that doesn't mean you can move your whole body in a way that makes sense with the music.

I sat on my rear for years playing drum-set (seated) and watching dancers, so I have a decent eye for good dancers, but that never taught me how to move myself.

Great musicians also totally get the concept of movement before/after the beat, just like dancers. Many dancers/instructors are sloppy about their timing, so it frustrates some musicians IF they have a very strong sense of time.

You are right, some musicians think that being on time means stepping on a count, when that may the right time to be picking up their feet, or starting another movement. Some dancers will always dance off the time, and some musicians who think they have good time don't. We can't assume if someone is a musician, that they have good time. (Even if they believe they do...)

Being a musician can become a huge advantage over time, but often it gets in the way in the short term. There are no free lunches; musicians and dancers both have to pay their dues.

I've always said, you can dance to great music for 20 years, and know it really well. If you then decide to play piano or drums (pick your instrument), you have 3-5 years of practice to become a reasonable musician, and few will be strong players at that point. On most instruments that is enough time to figure out how little you know compared to the best. It's the same for dancing, most take years before they are strong dancers.

For musicians who get good dance training and get over their own ego (not easy for someone like me) being a musician can become a huge positive over time.

[PLUG ALERT] I wrote an article last year on this concept from my point of view. Check it out at:
http://www.unlikelysalsero.com/2007/11/musicians-dont-dance.html
[/PLUG ALERT]

[Don Silver]

In my limited time dancing, I have found that musicians are obsessed with the exact time of the beat. Unfortunately dancing is done between the beats.

Great music is the same way... It's less mature musicians who believe everything is exactly on the beat. (And it depends on the style of the music, and their instrument.)

Great vocalists get ahead of and behind the beat at points, pushing and pulling to create emotion, but always returning to the anchor provided by the rhythm section from time to time. Same for many other melody instruments when soloing.

That said, most musicians are going to be obsessed with the timing, and many dancers with little musican background will not realize how far off the time they are... so it ends up going both ways.

[DennisBeach]

Being a good dancer takes a lot of time and so does being a good musician. I think just the time issue, makes it difficult to be good in both. I have met quite a few people, since I started dancing and none that were also serious musicians. Also the opportunities for both conflict. Dancers occur same time as musicians opportunities to perform occur.

The musicians who took the time to learn dancing on dancing with the Stars, seemed to do fine.

[ThisIsNotMe]

Great music is the same way... It's less mature musicians who believe everything is exactly on the beat. (And it depends on the style of the music, and their instrument.)

Great vocalists get ahead of and behind the beat at points, pushing and pulling to create emotion, but always returning to the anchor provided by the rhythm section from time to time. Same for many other melody instruments when soloing.

That said, most musicians are going to be obsessed with the timing, and many dancers with little musican background will not realize how far off the time they are... so it ends up going both ways.

I am in total agreement with your points, Don Silver. I thought that the 'ego' comment in your earlier post was particularly relevant. Many musicians learning to dance, will not listen to what their teachers say about timing, rhythm and so forth (their general idea - 'i'm a musician, I know far more than you ever could about this' etc) and try to use what they already know. Which, although it may be a great deal, usually does not apply very well to dancing. Leaving behind an ego can be a really big deal for musicians, especially musicians who consider themselves particularly good. Just as ego can be a problem in most areas of the performing arts, I think. But the leaving of 'ego' at the door when you are learning to dance (along with any sense of self consciousness) is absolutely necessary.
And the idea of 'maturity' in musicians allowing them to kind of 'forget' the rules is another idea that I like. This concept means to me (correct me if I'm wrong) that a musician who isnt particularly well trained, or whose music lacks a certain emotional maturity (something my music lacked until I started dancing, ironically) will take more issue with what their teachers are teaching because it conflicts with their somewhat rigid ideas of what 'rhythm', 'timing' and such are in practice. In dancing, these things take on more of a fluid meaning, as they do when your music reaches a higher level of emotional maturity.

Hmm. I think that I may have actually not even contributed anything worthwhile (or new, at any rate) to the discussion...but that's my 2c worth for today!

[Don Silver]

I am in total agreement with your points, Don Silver. I thought that the 'ego' comment in your earlier post was particularly relevant. Many musicians learning to dance, will not listen to what their teachers say about timing, rhythm and so forth (their general idea - 'i'm a musician, I know far more than you ever could about this' etc) and try to use what they already know. Which, although it may be a great deal, usually does not apply very well to dancing. Leaving behind an ego can be a really big deal for musicians, especially musicians who consider themselves particularly good. Just as ego can be a problem in most areas of the performing arts, I think. But the leaving of 'ego' at the door when you are learning to dance (along with any sense of self consciousness) is absolutely necessary.
And the idea of 'maturity' in musicians allowing them to kind of 'forget' the rules is another idea that I like. This concept means to me (correct me if I'm wrong) that a musician who isnt particularly well trained, or whose music lacks a certain emotional maturity (something my music lacked until I started dancing, ironically) will take more issue with what their teachers are teaching because it conflicts with their somewhat rigid ideas of what 'rhythm', 'timing' and such are in practice. In dancing, these things take on more of a fluid meaning, as they do when your music reaches a higher level of emotional maturity.

Hmm. I think that I may have actually not even contributed anything worthwhile (or new, at any rate) to the discussion...but that's my 2c worth for today!

Great points! Simply being a musician doesn't make me a mature musician.

Part of the reason it's tough on the ego is if you invest enough time becoming a mature musician, it's tough to go back to being so bad at something that appears related, but is still out of reach without tons of practice.

I agree that being a stronger dancer will also help some aspects of music. As you mature at either one you intellectually get a jump start on part of the puzzle for becoming mature at the other. You realize the same principle you just learned as a dancer applies to the music and vis-versa.

While dancing you learn things about the music, and just like dancing, as you get older things you were taught earlier in your development all fall into place, even if you practice less.

I wish I could dance half of what I can see/feel because of my musical background, but it will still be a few more years for me.

[Don Silver]

Being a good dancer takes a lot of time and so does being a good musician. I think just the time issue, makes it difficult to be good in both. I have met quite a few people, since I started dancing and none that were also serious musicians. Also the opportunities for both conflict. Dancers occur same time as musicians opportunities to perform occur.

The musicians who took the time to learn dancing on dancing with the Stars, seemed to do fine.

You have that right, I never danced when I was playing because if I was going to practice something, it was music, not dancing. Dancing required starting over, and instead it made more sense to work at my strengths.

I thought it would be cool to dance, but it wasn't worth the effort while I was younger. I was on stage performing enough that I didn't need another creative outlet.

I didn't even start dancing to partner dance, I started because I was gaining weight (middle age, too much food, not enough exercise) and my local gym had "salsa aerobics" and I liked the music. I didn't plan on becoming addicted or even working on it other than going to class a couple times a week to reduce weight and improve my fitness. Partnering was a bonus and I got sucked in like so many others (and I'm glad I did!)

[Peaches]

Great music is the same way... It's less mature musicians who believe everything is exactly on the beat. (And it depends on the style of the music, and their instrument.)

Great vocalists get ahead of and behind the beat at points, pushing and pulling to create emotion, but always returning to the anchor provided by the rhythm section from time to time. Same for many other melody instruments when soloing.Very, very, very true. (Funny, DH and I were just having a conversation about music and timing the other day.) Mature and skilled musicians, at least soloists, know how to compress and expand timing to achieve various results, often without the listener ever being truly aware of what is going on--only the result it creates.

That said...I don't know how many times I've heard him complain about accompanying solosts and their lack of any respect for the time. Not that it's a bad thing, except that there's someone else who's trying to coordinate their own playing. Allegedly sopranos are the worst. (And the jokes abound to that effect.)

[Don Silver]

Very, very, very true. (Funny, DH and I were just having a conversation about music and timing the other day.) Mature and skilled musicians, at least soloists, know how to compress and expand timing to achieve various results, often without the listener ever being truly aware of what is going on--only the result it creates.

That said...I don't know how many times I've heard him complain about accompanying solosts and their lack of any respect for the time. Not that it's a bad thing, except that there's someone else who's trying to coordinate their own playing. Allegedly sopranos are the worst. (And the jokes abound to that effect.)

Excellent point! Anybody playing a solo has the right to push ahead or lag behind the time, but somebody has to "stay home".

For the non-musicians: Usually the rhythm section clearly marks the time, staying consistent and providing a foundation for the soloists/vocalists to play around, moving in and out of the time, sometimes perfectly with it, sometimes pushing it or laying back behind the time. The people "staying home" are the ones attempting the keep the time perfect, even if they are playing complicated music. Playing in time does NOT mean it has to be stiff. It actually takes a VERY mature musician to play on time AND create a very relaxed flowing feel.

I always think of it like this: The best dancers almost become another member of the band, providing the visuals which compliment the music. The band stays home and provides the timing, the dancer is free to moving in and around the time, but of course that assumes they really know where the time is to begin with.

Many musicians don't know the time, so I certainly don't blame the dancers for being off occasionally. And I never mind someone who knows the time but chooses to push or lay-back.

A non-ending topic, I'm sure many others have some good input as well.

[fatimarobs]

i don't think you can generalize all musicians as bad dancers. as a musician myself i feel that understanding rhythms is what has allowed me to become a better dancer. i also think that it works the other way. i started dancing at a young age and maybe this acquaintance with music and rhythms is what helped me become a better musician.

on the other hand, some people might be a great musician but just lack the coordination to dance.

[Don Silver]

i don't think you can generalize all musicians as bad dancers. as a musician myself i feel that understanding rhythms is what has allowed me to become a better dancer. i also think that it works the other way. i started dancing at a young age and maybe this acquaintance with music and rhythms is what helped me become a better musician.

on the other hand, some people might be a great musician but just lack the coordination to dance.

We are on the same page. Every generalization is wrong! (Always) ;)

It's almost an inverse relationship: The stronger musicians tend to be weaker dancers. Part if it is simply practice. In high school, all my friends danced at the school events, I played in the band.

I don't think all musicians are bad dancers. The musicians have the potential to be (or become) some of the best dancers, but that is still not the norm. (And "musicians" come in all levels, and that also muddies the discussion.)

Musicians start with raw potential and IF they practice like they did with their primary instrument, they can be "off the charts" great dancers, because their musical understanding gives them insights that take dancers years to aquire.

And serious musicians know the value of practice, and how things build over time. The best practice foundational elements their whole life, knowing you can never be too good at a wide set of "simple" exercises.

When that mindset is passed to dancing, the growth is amazing, but you still have to invest the effort in dance.

If you do it all in your youth, it's different.

If you are an adult learner, beginning dancer but above average musician, it's frustrating at points. I know I'm coordinated overall but my whole body as an instrument is a totally different coordination experience.

Dancers often count different than musicians, many dance instructors count the music "wrong" (meaning I have to translate what they say into something that actually makes sense from a written music perspective), it can just be easier to go back and practice my instrument.

Again, some musicians will be excellent dancers, but most will not for a variety of reasons. In the beginning, many musicians are actually worse dancers than average but that would turn around IF they continue to dance.

[melissalive33]

Some are for example Britney her performance at MTV Music Award last year

[devane]

Haven't really got time to go through everything yet but......

I'm on the side of Musicians as I’m kinda in that world now

Are there any news sources to this finding? I would think being a musician would only help because they would easily find the beat, rhythm, tempo.

This is the important question. Where are the studies?
How does having a higher music perception hinder you?
What is the specific universal factor that hinders them?

Is the salsa community scared of music theory? "If I learn music theory I will lose my ability to feel music?"

Musicality isn't taught in my scene so the scene relies on luck. Pretty much the ONLY leads dancing on time are musicians. A lot of girls who lead in class, dance on time. This could be down to having more dance experience.


Dancing relies more on physical skill just how to find 1 or 2.. I could do that on day 1. It didn't make me a dancer .I still had to learn the steps and let them soak in before I could dance with the music.
Previous sports experience would be more of an advantage than just musical perception.





I seem to remember hearing about a study that showed (via some sort of scanning) that musicians use different parts of their brains than non-musicians when they listen to music. That might be related.



Yes. Musicians use the right side of the brain, associated with music and salsa dancers use the left side of the brain associated with mathematics, more specifically counting. :rolleyes:
Source
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lateralization_of_brain_function

I still hear of people who are dancing for years whispering "1,2,3".






So...

Are dancers bad musicians?

In a general sense……… yes. I don't find it usual to see people off-time. The general public want moves not music theory so the result is predictable.

I've rarely even heard of anyone teaching timing to their students. I've read stories here and on SF about how hard it is to teach. The students aren’t interested.

In my scene out of 8 or 9 teachers only 2 can consistently dance on time (they have dance diplomas though) only 1 of them who is strict about timing in class so guys in particular stay away from her classes. They even have live percussionists in the class, pretty cool.
Another teacher does teach timing to a degree but sometimes dances on the 3 or 4 depending on the song. Also the teacher says a bar is 8 beats not 4 so it gets confusing when he uses the term.
I avoid this teacher because when you have to practice a sequence with the music he was counting for you over the music. Very annoying.

Going past the concept of just dancing on the beat which is nothing in my opinion.........what about dancing to the song? Songs have a structure. Does your social dancing (if you are a lead) reflect this?
That is something which is seriously lacking in Salsa. I've seen posts saying "go study Swing" but I say "why can't I find it Salsa?” This is admitting that Salsa is lacking in musicality.
I'm ok at it but now as good as I'd like yet. I find it difficult to find new ideas as all I see on youtube or from other dancers is 50 spins before the singer starts the 1st verse, dancing through the breaks etc…. Not musical at all.

I must get that Peter and Eddie Dvd though. It’s got to have something of interest.

ps

In this months edition of Pianist Magazine (no 40) in the letters page some guy is having problems with rhythm and the teachers answer is......
Note Heavily edited.

"The best place to start is with some sort of physical movement....Small children are often excellent at picking up tricky rhythms, quite simply because they are often unaware of what they are actually doing. Get children to dance around a room to a steady beat and they seem to have no trouble at all. Adults, on the other hand, seem fixated on the notes. Dancing to the beat, as silly as it may sound is probably the most method for improving this skill.”

Looks like next month Salsa teachers may be seeing some Pianists in their classes.

[Don Silver]

<snip>
This is the important question. Where are the studies?
How does having a higher music perception hinder you?
What is the specific universal factor that hinders them?

Gee... you're one of the few people I've seen that can write longer posts than me. That is hard to do! ;)

Earlier in this thread I reference an article I wrote last fall about my theories on musicians not dancing. (I've been a musician for over 30 years, a dancer for about 5 years now...)

Is the salsa community scared of music theory? "If I learn music theory I will lose my ability to feel music?"

Many dancers feel if they learn to count, they will be stiff and won't feel the music. Knowing music theory doesn't make you stiff, since you can find a wide set of musicians who read music but play with an excellent feel.

(PLUG ALERT) I wrote another article last summer about this subject:
http://www.unlikelysalsero.com/2007/06/too-stiff-you-must-know-too-much.html (END PLUG)


Musicality isn't taught in my scene so the scene relies on luck. Pretty much the ONLY leads dancing on time are musicians. A lot of girls who lead in class, dance on time. This could be down to having more dance experience.


Musiciality isn't taught in most scenes, because it first depends on you hearing the music. Everybody has different ears, and while you may be hearing the bass line, piano groove, clave or conga rhythms, 80% of the people around you aren't hearing those instruments when the complete band is playing.

I spend a ton of time teaching dancers about the music, and I used to be amazed at the differences between what people hear. Even picking out a simple bass line in a commercial tune can be difficult for most people, salsa music tends to much denser.

Dancing relies more on physical skill just how to find 1 or 2.. I could do that on day 1. It didn't make me a dancer .I still had to learn the steps and let them soak in before I could dance with the music.
Previous sports experience would be more of an advantage than just musical perception.

Agreed... I could hear the music on day one, but that doesn't mean I know how to use my body to reflect those sounds. Great dancers will still invest 3-5 years (or more) to become strong musicians. Just because dancers hear music all day long, doesn't mean they can play the music. Two complimentary skills, both requiring some practice.

That said, in the longer term, knowing the music is a huge advantage over time as your dancing grows, but that assumes the musicians actually get through to the point where they can dance like they play... Not a trivial task and often frustrating after investing years in learning to play the music.
<snip>
In a general sense……… yes. I don't find it usual to see people off-time. The general public want moves not music theory so the result is predictable.

I sometimes think I'm dancing in an alternate universe because those around me are so off the time. In LA there are a large set of people who do get it right. Tons of serious dancers, and a set who totally get the music and how it relates to the dance.

I've rarely even heard of anyone teaching timing to their students. I've read stories here and on SF about how hard it is to teach. The students aren’t interested.

Very tough to teach in group settings and most people want to do the physical part of dancing. Music requires some head work, and that is just not as fun in the initial stages.
<snip>
Another teacher does teach timing to a degree but sometimes dances on the 3 or 4 depending on the song. Also the teacher says a bar is 8 beats not 4 so it gets confusing when he uses the term.
I avoid this teacher because when you have to practice a sequence with the music he was counting for you over the music. Very annoying.

Oh... you'd hate my classes since I count with beginners. I want them to hear how the counts of the step work with the music. That said, dancers generally count 8th notes (8/8 time) and musicians count in 4/4. As a musician I had to translate in the beginning, now I can go back and forth without thinking about it. One is still the same, and they fit together like a hand in glove.

Going past the concept of just dancing on the beat which is nothing in my opinion.........what about dancing to the song? Songs have a structure. Does your social dancing (if you are a lead) reflect this?

I think you need both... To know the structure you need to know the time. Sure you can feel it sometimes, but to know you know (and be right) is a different level.

I'm ok at it but now as good as I'd like yet. I find it difficult to find new ideas as all I see on youtube or from other dancers is 50 spins before the singer starts the 1st verse, dancing through the breaks etc…. Not musical at all.

I must get that Peter and Eddie Dvd though. It’s got to have something of interest.


The Peter/Edie DVD is great, and I like their pattern DVD as well.

[almo100]

Although music and dancing are intertwined I don't see any direct correlation between a musicians dancing ability and his choice to play an instrument. Sounds like a stereotype to me that personal I have never heard of.

How about a Latin Salsa band? Can those guys and girls dance? :)

[Don Silver]

Although music and dancing are intertwined I don't see any direct correlation between a musicians dancing ability and his choice to play an instrument. Sounds like a stereotype to me that personal I have never heard of.

How about a Latin Salsa band? Can those guys and girls dance? :)

There are exceptions to everything but as a generalization, musician's don't dance well. Singers (who are also musicians) often dance better than the rest. It's expected of singers, so they work at it but their thing is generally repeating footwork patterns, not partnering.

We have live bands at most venues in LA, and I've seen the same bands for a few years.

Being a musician I've talked to many of the guys on the breaks, and I recognize their girl friends at the gigs. The musicians occasionally dance on the breaks, and I'll simply say they fit the stereotypes.

Again, there are exceptions but I'd state the more serious someone is about music, the odds are they are weaker dancers.

[Indiana_Jay]

Well, I'm a musician (have a college music degree, even). Don't know if my dancing is any good, so I can't really use myself as a case in point.

But I can share these experiences:

My LW (who also has music degrees) and I, unlike other beginning (and not-so-beginning) ballroom dancers we've seen, have never had any trouble finding the beat or the beginning of a measure or the beginning of a phrase.
We don't have any trouble identifying beat two in mambo music (and breaking on it).
We don't have any trouble identifying whether a piece of music is in triple meter (i.e. a waltz) or duple meter (just about everything else).
We don't have any trouble identifying stylistic differences between cha-cha music, foxtrot music and tango music, even if they're all played at the same tempo.Again, I'm a "barely bronze" dancer (in technique and figure repertoire) and can't say how good or bad I am. But I can say that I've found the abilities listed above to be helpful as I've learned to dance.

FWIW.

-IJ

[Don Silver]

Well, I'm a musician (have a college music degree, even). Don't know if my dancing is any good, so I can't really use myself as a case in point.

But I can share these experiences:

My LW (who also has music degrees) and I, unlike other beginning (and not-so-beginning) ballroom dancers we've seen, have never had any trouble finding the beat or the beginning of a measure or the beginning of a phrase.
We don't have any trouble identifying beat two in mambo music (and breaking on it).
We don't have any trouble identifying whether a piece of music is in triple meter (i.e. a waltz) or duple meter (just about everything else).
We don't have any trouble identifying stylistic differences between cha-cha music, foxtrot music and tango music, even if they're all played at the same tempo.Again, I'm a "barely bronze" dancer (in technique and figure repertoire) and can't say how good or bad I am. But I can say that I've found the abilities listed above to be helpful as I've learned to dance.

FWIW.

-IJ

I have to be careful... I'm a musician too. While MOST musicians don't dance well, if they stick with it a little while, they have huge advantages over other adults learning to dance. The best dancers tend to know the music well, and few understand it like the musicians who can read music.

Musicians can become much better dancers, in shorter periods of time overall compared with others without a music background, assuming they stick with it. Many musicians don't dance long enough to get past the beginning stages, but the ones who do can leverage their musical background and progress faster than many others.

In your case, you are hearing the timing in the music long before most dancers get that straight, and for you it will be effortless. You can focus on other areas and grow quickly because the timing is already part of your experience. That is a big win as some non-musicians struggle with the time for years.

[tsb]

Being a good dancer takes a lot of time and so does being a good musician. I think just the time issue, makes it difficult to be good in both. I have met quite a few people, since I started dancing and none that were also serious musicians. Also the opportunities for both conflict. Dancers occur same time as musicians opportunities to perform occur.

The musicians who took the time to learn dancing on dancing with the Stars, seemed to do fine.

learning a choreography isn't necessarily the same thing as learning how to dance.

i submit that individual temperment that might be more a factor.

some musicians might be technically competent, even brilliant at producing a superior sound with appropriate tone and timbre - but can still be lousy at improvisation or sight reading. i would expect those with greater proficiency with the latter skills to have more natural floorcraft skills - and might pick up some concepts more quickly.

some musicians can be brilliant soloists yet indifferent as ensemble musicians. i would expect the latter to have more natural partnering skills - in particular, accompanists, ensemble jazz musicians - people who are more or less forced to have to be aware of what others are doing at any given moment vs. having a conductor oversee everything for them.

some musicians have perfect pitch and/or can play by ear, while others can only play what's written in front of them. i would expect the latter to be more comfortable with learning steps and choosing dances that have syllabi - while they may pursue them, i would not expect them to be enthusiastic about or be particularly creative in their styling while dancing WCS or AT, etc.

mix and match just the 3 qualities mentioned and we can probably think of people who fit those - and their tendencies in one should result in few surprises in how they pursue the other.

[ThisIsNotMe]

learning a choreography isn't necessarily the same thing as learning how to dance.

i submit that individual temperment that might be more a factor.

some musicians might be technically competent, even brilliant at producing a superior sound with appropriate tone and timbre - but can still be lousy at improvisation or sight reading. i would expect those with greater proficiency with the latter skills to have more natural floorcraft skills - and might pick up some concepts more quickly.

some musicians can be brilliant soloists yet indifferent as ensemble musicians. i would expect the latter to have more natural partnering skills - in particular, accompanists, ensemble jazz musicians - people who are more or less forced to have to be aware of what others are doing at any given moment vs. having a conductor oversee everything for them.

some musicians have perfect pitch and/or can play by ear, while others can only play what's written in front of them. i would expect the latter to be more comfortable with learning steps and choosing dances that have syllabi - while they may pursue them, i would not expect them to be enthusiastic about or be particularly creative in their styling while dancing WCS or AT, etc.

mix and match just the 3 qualities mentioned and we can probably think of people who fit those - and their tendencies in one should result in few surprises in how they pursue the other.

These are great points! That said...I think that as a musician, before I started dancing, I fell squarely into the categories which would mark a less proficient dancer. Once, however, I had been dancing about a year, my proficiency in these areas increased massively(the emotive quality to my music improved, my improvisation and sight reading both improved, even my pitch improved). Maybe it's a coincidence, and I just reached a more 'mature' stage as a musician at the same time as my dancing was really starting to get off the ground, but I'm inclined to believe that my skills as a musician, and my learning as a dancer were really working off one another at that stage of exponential improvement in both areas.

[DennisBeach]

I think that's true off all categories of people. It seems most male social dancers are from problem solving and analytical fields. But that does not mean everyone in those fields can be a good dancer. Within a category, there are a great deal of differences, like you pointed out so well for musicians. I see those same characteristics in the computer field.

[devane]

The one fellow always thinks his partner is off time as she wants to lower on the end of three in waltz to arrive on the one. He will not go until he hears the one which puts him behind the time.


I don't know how to waltz but it is clear that the problem lies in his dancing knowledge/perception. His musical perception isn't the problem. He doesn't appreciate the lag he is creating by his method by starting when he hears the one. I'm presuming the first step is finished/placed on the one? I must learn a few moves for the next wedding I'm at.

He has problems coordinating himself (not too unusual for us guys). He should practice without the music and learn his steps well, feel the rhythm of the steps and when he can do that he can learn the synchronize it properly with the music and not react to it in the way he is doing.

[devane]

Gee... you're one of the few people I've seen that can write longer posts than me. That is hard to do! ;)

Well I like to cover everything in 1 post :rolleyes: Sometimes I'm a bit busy to come on boards everyday following threads so I cover all points.
Some subjects have many aspects so you need to be clear of what you mean.


Musiciality isn't taught in most scenes, because it first depends on you hearing the music. Everybody has different ears, and while you may be hearing the bass line, piano groove, clave or conga rhythms, 80% of the people around you aren't hearing those instruments when the complete band is playing.
I spend a ton of time teaching dancers about the music, and I used to be amazed at the differences between what people hear. Even picking out a simple bass line in a commercial tune can be difficult for most people, salsa music tends to much denser.


Yes the range of musical skill is broad. There are people who are really musically challenged. But there are a lot of people who only need a lesson to two to get them dancing on time, given the opportunity of getting this information.




Just because dancers hear music all day long, doesn't mean they can play the music. Two complimentary skills, both requiring some practice.

Science Alert!
This is particularly true because I've had this explained to me from a scientist doing research on Absolute Pitch. I have perfect pitch which is considered unusual for a late beginner given the popular belief ideally you should start playing piano between the age of 4 and 6. Oh.... and also being able to speak a tonal language like Cantonese or Mandarin to have a chance of having it.
Your brain cuts off connections when you are very young so this perception is set. You can't gain new connections. You have to make do with what you've got. Which is why you hear it's difficult to learn tonal languages as an adult. I believe unfamiliar grammar structures make it difficult too.
This is echoed in this documentary "my brilliant brain" Discovery channel. This is part one of a three part series on the brain.
http://smashingtelly.com/2007/10/23/my-brilliant-brain-born-genius/
from about 13 mins in ..
Perfect pitch test at 25 min though misrepresented slightly.

I don't have any problems with relative pitch because of perfect pitch. I can hear the intervals. Memorising the spellings is the pain.
So apparently I'm a freak of nature who's shocked a few music teachers because my perception of music is higher than it should be (technical skill/experience being nill :( ) until I did a bit of research. The first thing I learned was that "music starts in the brain". Musical perception and technical skill are seperate.
The second thing was "meaningful exposure"

It's not unusual for someone to say they are exposed to something and this exposure made some difference.
The term "exposure" by itself means nothing. This is why the thread on SF about Latinos having a special insight into music is bull. "Meaningful exposure" is what counts. You have to engage in the given activity in a "meaningful" way. Passive listening does not improve musical skill. Playing an instrument, singing, playing music in your head, theory etc does.
Watching football for 20 years on TV doesn't make you an expert on football strategy (even though even football fans think so).
At school we all didn't get the same grades even though we all shared the same exposure to the classes. It all depends on aptitude, interest, work put in etc
It makes perfect sense if you think about it.




I sometimes think I'm dancing in an alternate universe because those around me are so off the time. In LA there are a large set of people who do get it right. Tons of serious dancers, and a set who totally get the music and how it relates to the dance.


You are lucky that you live in an area that has a big enough scene where they are some really good dancers. If you're in small scene where the classes cater for people whose main or only reason is to socialise, it's hard to find inspiration to improve your dancing.

Oh... you'd hate my classes since I count with beginners. I want them to hear how the counts of the step work with the music.

I don't have problem if the teacher is on time. But hearing a teacher say "1,2,3,.." off time and force you to dance off time by making the class dance on cue is torturous.
Ok, conversion takes getting used to once you learn what they mean. Like when Dr Dre or Jay-Z boasts about how much it costs for them to drop 16 bars on your song. They mean really 32.;)


The Peter/Edie DVD is great, and I like their pattern DVD as well.
It'll be my next dance DVD purchase. I remember reading her article YEARS AGO (2000 I think). Didn't make much sense when I'd just started as I had no moves. But I've read it plenty of times since. I think Josie Neglia did one too about levels of dancing. Pretty interesting.


Edit
I forgot about this....proof that pianists can dance
liszt- Hungarian Rhapsody no 2
http://youtube.com/watch?v=wHjwNp6gbss

A little better than Tom Hanks........

[quixotedlm]

Yes, musicians are bad dancers.

[quixotedlm]

No, they are not bad dancers.

[tsb]

These are great points! That said...I think that as a musician, before I started dancing, I fell squarely into the categories which would mark a less proficient dancer. Once, however, I had been dancing about a year, my proficiency in these areas increased massively(the emotive quality to my music improved, my improvisation and sight reading both improved, even my pitch improved). Maybe it's a coincidence, and I just reached a more 'mature' stage as a musician at the same time as my dancing was really starting to get off the ground, but I'm inclined to believe that my skills as a musician, and my learning as a dancer were really working off one another at that stage of exponential improvement in both areas.

i can say that in some ways dancing has improved my musicianship - in the past my musical background prompted me to fixate on the technical aspects of a performance - analyzing chord progressions/substitutions, tone/timbre, intonation, etc. and not pay as much attention to lyricism, emoting, etc. but when the music became just one factor, my mind was more or less forced to process the music as phrases so as to choose figures that facilitated breaks as well as ending figures at the end of phrases, etc.

[tsb]

I think that's true off all categories of people. It seems most male social dancers are from problem solving and analytical fields. But that does not mean everyone in those fields can be a good dancer. Within a category, there are a great deal of differences, like you pointed out so well for musicians. I see those same characteristics in the computer field.

there's a high correlation between musical aptitude and computer aptitude - that awareness prompted me to pursue both in college. in a previous life i used to be in software development and i know from experience in both that writing code can be very similar to composition in terms of artistry displayed, though in reality a lot of coding consists of taking boilerplate and/or cloning similar programs so as to minimize the time doing repetitive stuff like defining storage, error routines, main logic flow depending on whether it's an online vs. a batch program vs, a subroutine or stored procedure, etc.

but i'm more a big picture kinda guy, plus i have the ability to speak actual english and translate that into gearhead language and vice versa which made enterprise data modeling/data warehousing my eventual niche.

DBAs would probably be step learners IMO.

[tsb]

I don't know how to waltz but it is clear that the problem lies in his dancing knowledge/perception. His musical perception isn't the problem. He doesn't appreciate the lag he is creating by his method by starting when he hears the one. I'm presuming the first step is finished/placed on the one? I must learn a few moves for the next wedding I'm at.

He has problems coordinating himself (not too unusual for us guys). He should practice without the music and learn his steps well, feel the rhythm of the steps and when he can do that he can learn the synchronize it properly with the music and not react to it in the way he is doing.

well, we can't see this so we have to take your word for it.

[tsb]

Science Alert!
This is particularly true because I've had this explained to me from a scientist doing research on Absolute Pitch. I have perfect pitch which is considered unusual for a late beginner given the popular belief ideally you should start playing piano between the age of 4 and 6.


not necessarily - one of my instructors (who spent her formative summers either at interlochen or aspen) suggested that at that early an age you don't necessarily have the digital dexterity so you don't gain *that* much advantage.


Oh.... and also being able to speak a tonal language like Cantonese or Mandarin to have a chance of having it.



hmmm. i speak both dialects - and cantonese has nine tones while mandarin has only 4.


Your brain cuts off connections when you are very young so this perception is set. You can't gain new connections. You have to make do with what you've got. Which is why you hear it's difficult to learn tonal languages as an adult. I believe unfamiliar grammar structures make it difficult too.


one of my friends (actually, it would be more accurate to say i dated his daughter) worked on the first talking computer so he spent a lot of time studying phonemes. my understanding is that our ability to absorb new phonemes ends around the age of 2 or 3

(one of his favorite jokes was about the japanese creating a lifesize doll of englebert humperdink (sp?) unfortunately, when you pulled the string, the doll sang: "PREEEEEEEZE REREASE ME, RET ME GOOOOO".)


This is echoed in this documentary "my brilliant brain" Discovery channel. This is part one of a three part series on the brain.
http://smashingtelly.com/2007/10/23/my-brilliant-brain-born-genius/
from about 13 mins in ..
Perfect pitch test at 25 min though misrepresented slightly.

I don't have any problems with relative pitch because of perfect pitch. I can hear the intervals. Memorising the spellings is the pain.


hmm. for me, all i do is recall a melody of musical phrase that starts with a certain note and voila!


So apparently I'm a freak of nature who's shocked a few music teachers because my perception of music is higher than it should be (technical skill/experience being nill :( ) until I did a bit of research. The first thing I learned was that "music starts in the brain". Musical perception and technical skill are seperate.
The second thing was "meaningful exposure"

It's not unusual for someone to say they are exposed to something and this exposure made some difference.
The term "exposure" by itself means nothing. This is why the thread on SF about Latinos having a special insight into music is bull. "Meaningful exposure" is what counts. You have to engage in the given activity in a "meaningful" way. Passive listening does not improve musical skill. Playing an instrument, singing, playing music in your head, theory etc does.
Watching football for 20 years on TV doesn't make you an expert on football strategy (even though even football fans think so).
At school we all didn't get the same grades even though we all shared the same exposure to the classes. It all depends on aptitude, interest, work put in etc
It makes perfect sense if you think about it.


one of the first things i've discovered while working on my PhD in psych is that all symptoms are overdetermined; that is to say, even when there are perfectly obvious reasons to explain what has occurred, the obvious reasons are seldom totally comprehensive - our equations are generally too simplistic (kinda like neglecting to include a constant of integration when trying to reintegrate a derivative).



You are lucky that you live in an area that has a big enough scene where they are some really good dancers. If you're in small scene where the classes cater for people whose main or only reason is to socialise, it's hard to find inspiration to improve your dancing.

I don't have problem if the teacher is on time. But hearing a teacher say "1,2,3,.." off time and force you to dance off time by making the class dance on cue is torturous.
Ok, conversion takes getting used to once you learn what they mean. Like when Dr Dre or Jay-Z boasts about how much it costs for them to drop 16 bars on your song. They mean really 32.;)


It'll be my next dance DVD purchase. I remember reading her article YEARS AGO (2000 I think). Didn't make much sense when I'd just started as I had no moves. But I've read it plenty of times since. I think Josie Neglia did one too about levels of dancing. Pretty interesting.


Edit
I forgot about this....proof that pianists can dance
liszt- Hungarian Rhapsody no 2
http://youtube.com/watch?v=wHjwNp6gbss

A little better than Tom Hanks........

[tsb]

No, they are not bad dancers.

are you assuming that all musicians are good musicians?

[devane]

not necessarily - one of my instructors (who spent her formative summers either at interlochen or aspen) suggested that at that early an age you don't necessarily have the digital dexterity so you don't gain *that* much advantage.


Music starts in the brain and Perfect Pitch is just perception. It isn’t dependent on the physical structure of your ear or the technical skill required to play an instrument. But playing an instrument early is associated with keeping it. You play along the song in your head when playing.




hmmm. i speak both dialects - and cantonese has nine tones while mandarin has only 4.


Thanks , that was a question I needed answering. A report I read about the tonal language connection had somewhere around 75% (this figure is from memory) perfect pitch possession when students started early playing early. My question was how many tones are there? Enough for an advantage, but not a guarantee. I would even be interested in a correlation with people with certain accents.



one of my friends (actually, it would be more accurate to say i dated his daughter) worked on the first talking computer so he spent a lot of time studying phonemes. my understanding is that our ability to absorb new phonemes ends around the age of 2 or 3


Another question answered. The documentary and articles talk a lot about the brain of a 3 year old having double the connections of an adult and there are cut-off points where the brain does some pruning etc but the creation of connections in the first place is vital too. There is belief that most people have this potential but loose it quickly if not used.




hmm. for me, all i do is recall a melody of musical phrase that starts with a certain note and voila!


That’s what I do too. I perceive the notes as 11 distinct sounds that repeat as you go up and down. A “C” is distinct from any another note. I could do this from day 1.
To associate the names of the notes with the sounds I used the same method. One Bach minuet starts with “G” and bar 17 “E”.
The guy in the documentary (and a lot of threads on the internet) gives the impression that we memorise 88 frequencies by memory. Giving the impression that the notes just get higher or lower which is wrong. I’ve never heard of an artist quote me frequencies when talking about paint. I do use Eyedropper to get the RBG values when stealing a colour I like that I see on someones website. ;)




one of the first things i've discovered while working on my PhD in psych is that all symptoms are overdetermined; that is to say, even when there are perfectly obvious reasons to explain what has occurred, the obvious reasons are seldom totally comprehensive - our equations are generally too simplistic (kinda like neglecting to include a constant of integration when trying to reintegrate a derivative).

Totally agree. Every time I read one of these articles, I always see factors that have been totally ignored. They just putting across a point of view based on their research, ignoring a million other factors that may or may not have relevance. It is not possible to cover everything. I just keep reading all I can and go from there.
Articles can be misleading. Like lateralization of the brain articles. They give the impression if you are dominant on one side you are crap on the other. When you read into you realise you don’t use one side solely to do a certain activity associated with the right or left side.

I’m supposed to right-brain dominant but my hand righting is terrible (really, really bad).

I program too which makes me wonder if you were to do a survey about non-dance professions, how well would the science and maths people do in dance? - Without previous sports experience.





Back to the original topic about musicians being bad dancers, the factor of gender should be an important consideration too.
It would be interesting to see how well percussionists do against the others, or what problems they had.

[quixotedlm]

are you assuming that all musicians are good musicians?

no really. i was trolling ;)

[Don Silver]

no really. i was trolling ;)

:cool: Yea... I got that... When I saw your first answer, I guessed as much and decided not to answer. Then when you posted your second, with the opposite, it was obvious what you were doing. I had a good laugh.

[Don Silver]

Music starts in the brain and Perfect Pitch is just perception. It isn’t dependent on the physical structure of your ear or the technical skill required to play an instrument. But playing an instrument early is associated with keeping it. You play along the song in your head when playing.

<snip>

Totally agree. Every time I read one of these articles, I always see factors that have been totally ignored. They just putting across a point of view based on their research, ignoring a million other factors that may or may not have relevance. It is not possible to cover everything. I just keep reading all I can and go from there.

Articles can be misleading. Like lateralization of the brain articles. They give the impression if you are dominant on one side you are crap on the other. When you read into you realise you don’t use one side solely to do a certain activity associated with the right or left side.


The "experts" argue about almost everything. Any one article is highly likely to have some points which are summaries/conclusions. I agree you have to read a wide set of materials to get a feel for the center of the discussion/research.


I’m supposed to right-brain dominant but my hand righting is terrible (really, really bad).
<snip>
Back to the original topic about musicians being bad dancers, the factor of gender should be an important consideration too.
It would be interesting to see how well percussionists do against the others, or what problems they had.

FWIW - I'm a percussionist and I got started with my brain research because drummers need to be ambidextrous when performing. In high school I started practicing writing (primarily printing) with my left hand during boring classes. I then started eating, brushing my teeth and trying to do everything possible with my non-dominant hand. Today I can switch most things quickly, even if I learn it one way. I mindlessly switch my mouse from right and left hands if one is tired for a reason. (I often mouse with my left hand these days, but that is just my mood this month.)

As for dancing, being a drummer helps dramatically in some areas, but dancing still requires significant practice. Some things dancers do naturally are very difficult as a drummer. My mind tends to track where movements are relative to the time and that helps greatly but occasionally gets in the way.

BTW - We discussed this earlier in the thread. Musicians are at all different levels just like dancers. Jazz musicians (my background) will have a different set of strengths/weaknesses compared to symphony musicians. Musicians who read music will have different experiences than those who primarily play by ear.

I still believe most musicians don't dance well, but that is NOT because they can't. It's more the startup takes some time and they have already paid their dues on their primary instrument. While most will grow faster than the average adult learning to dance, they still have to put in the effort, and often it's not worth it to them. Strong musicians generally have a well developed practice habit and work ethic and if applied to dancing, they grow faster than most.

If they keep going, the musicians can be excellent dancers, assuming they put in the effort.

[LatinDancer006]

There are exceptions to everything but as a generalization, musician's don't dance well. Singers (who are also musicians) often dance better than the rest. It's expected of singers, so they work at it but their thing is generally repeating footwork patterns, not partnering.

We have live bands at most venues in LA, and I've seen the same bands for a few years.

Being a musician I've talked to many of the guys on the breaks, and I recognize their girl friends at the gigs. The musicians occasionally dance on the breaks, and I'll simply say they fit the stereotypes.

Again, there are exceptions but I'd state the more serious someone is about music, the odds are they are weaker dancers.


The relationship you guys are drawing here from a musician and a dancer is correlational at best and by no means causational. I haven't seen any scientific study that came to a conclusion that because you are a musician you therefore are not / or can not be a good dancer. Some of you may have sited some circumstantial evidence, but it wasn't really convincing. To be good at anything you have to put your sweat into it. I think if you have poor cordination, balance and flexibility you'll not be very good at dancing or any other sport regardless of whether you're a musician. However, if you compare two people with the same/similar physical condition and ability and one is a musician and the other isn't, the musician is more likely to learn to dance faster. just my two pennies.

[LatinDancer006]

These are great points! That said...I think that as a musician, before I started dancing, I fell squarely into the categories which would mark a less proficient dancer. Once, however, I had been dancing about a year, my proficiency in these areas increased massively(the emotive quality to my music improved, my improvisation and sight reading both improved, even my pitch improved). Maybe it's a coincidence, and I just reached a more 'mature' stage as a musician at the same time as my dancing was really starting to get off the ground, but I'm inclined to believe that my skills as a musician, and my learning as a dancer were really working off one another at that stage of exponential improvement in both areas.

What instrument do you play or are you a signer?

[ThisIsNotMe]

What instrument do you play or are you a signer?

I play piano, clarinet and flute, I also sing. I play a little bit of guitar (badly) as well. Piano is my primary instrument, and I hold my highest qualification in that area.

[dancin/dj]

Im a musican have been for 35 years(quitar,bass& sing) i also dj, for me its been an advantage in my dancing,but i must say it was hard for me a first to learn how to do proper dancing in the sense of ballroom,salsa/counting,hustle new york style,& west coast ,because there different motor skills & i takes time and work to them together, but afterwards its both a blessing and a curse in the sense that dancers who are (not musically inclined) dance like robots, not that one HAS to be a musican to be musically inclined, but most dancers i"ve met from high level to low level seem to only know 1 tempo & cant weave in and out of the timing while being on time, but when someone can i luvvvvvvvv it.thers more to dancing than stepping & theres more than 1 tempo and sometimes songs change tempo mid sentence and dancers dont hear & feel the difference.my 2 cents of course with inflation my 1000 dollars , lol

[Don Silver]

The relationship you guys are drawing here from a musician and a dancer is correlational at best and by no means causational. I haven't seen any scientific study that came to a conclusion that because you are a musician you therefore are not / or can not be a good dancer. Some of you may have sited some circumstantial evidence, but it wasn't really convincing. To be good at anything you have to put your sweat into it. I think if you have poor cordination, balance and flexibility you'll not be very good at dancing or any other sport regardless of whether you're a musician. However, if you compare two people with the same/similar physical condition and ability and one is a musician and the other isn't, the musician is more likely to learn to dance faster. just my two pennies.

You're 100% right, I have no studies to prove musicians aren't strong dancers. I doubt you have studies that prove otherwise. I only have my personal experience, so I agree my point of view (POV) could be skewed and your input is welcomed. (I'm constantly learning, so bring it on if I'm missing something.)

If you watch most music DVDs where there are pro dancers backing a singer, the vast majority of the time the dancers are much stronger, but they can't sing as well. That doesn't mean there aren't some singers who dance at the pro level, and while they look great on their own, when you put them in an ensemble, it's easy to see the pro dancers usually have much more depth, cleaner lines, more overall control.

And being a musician, I see it a huge advantage over time and I don't have the belief that musicians can't be great dancers, but I know why I didn't dance for years and I see similar issues with other serious musicians. I may be projecting my bias on others (most studies do that...) In my case, the startup was not fun and as I talk to other serious musicians, I hear them saying similar things so they don't get past the startup stages.

It has been a huge help for me, and I see it really making a positive difference the longer I dance.

I've also social danced for the last 5 years, averaging 3-5 nights per week in the stronger salsa clubs in LA, taught salsa classes with a few thousand students total over the years. My experience is primarly related to social dancers in the salsa world so I'll stand by my statements that the stronger musicians are weaker dancers in that setting.

That is a generalization, and I agree that it doesn't have to be that way, but that is how it's played out in my real world experience. Your scene/experience may vary and of course, it's dependent on how we define "musician". I tend to think of them as the people with 5 years or more of experience, who get paid to perform regularly, so that may also skew my POV.

I think dancers would benefit greatly from some musical training, just like I see dancing certainly helps musicians see their music from a different perspective.

All input welcomed!