Advice on overtaking, please.

[Cortado]

In most milongas, there is enough floorspace for two lanes of dancers in the line of dance and it is customary for the "better" dancers to keep to the outside lane. I have noticed that many of them will remain stationary for quite a while at the beginning of a track and then start with a giant sidestep left across the other track. One or two of them will also dance more slowly than the rest and force the rest to dance at their pace.
What is the general advice on overtaking? Is it done only at the last resort and only on the inside. What is the best way of knowing if the way is clear left and behind you. Generally speaking how many times would you expect/have/choose to change lanes in a tanda?

[Ampster]

In most milongas, there is enough floorspace for two lanes of dancers in the line of dance and it is customary for the "better" dancers to keep to the outside lane. I have noticed that many of them will remain stationary for quite a while at the beginning of a track and then start with a giant sidestep left across the other track. One or two of them will also dance more slowly than the rest and force the rest to dance at their pace.
What is the general advice on overtaking? Is it done only at the last resort and only on the inside. What is the best way of knowing if the way is clear left and behind you. Generally speaking how many times would you expect/have/choose to change lanes in a tanda?

General rule: Holding up the line of dance is RUDE. Overtaking is even RUDER. The expectation is that you will NOT overtakeas it is considered dangerous (collisions happen), upsets the line of dance... and bad decorum. Only impatient and inexpereinced tango dancers do this. its a milonga, not a race.



However, that being said, here are a few things you can do:


Dance in Giros
You can see all around you but still keep moving even if youre almost stationary. Allows you time to plan your next move
Lead Patterns... as a delaying tactic
Lead your partner well into patterns that keeps the motion moving, but still moving forward
Dance small
Reduce the size of your steps and patterns even smaller due to the lack of space
Ride the slow poke
Dance "On his heels." This is a polite way to tell the rude person to, "Please move... you are causing a log jam." Don't give him time and space to movr backwards. eventually he'll get the idea.


If you must overtake...
Do it only as a last resort
Overtake on the left... the leader's right side is blinded and he can't see you. This is courting a collision

[Peaches]

See, around here it's not so strict. People will meander across different "lanes," (which is to say, there are no lanes), or veer off into the middle a bit to do things or veer off into corners to do things.

I don't see what the big deal is, so long as you're not racing around and causing problems.

[kieronneedscake]

In the UK, the whole lanes thing gets decidedly sloppy. I would say that the customary "better dancers on the outside thing" is not generally observed. The general accumulated skill and experience of the dancers is not sufficient to carefully select length of step, fully predict the finishing direction or to maintain well-mannered circulation (in my opinion).

What Ampster says is an ideal case, and rather assumes the dance floor is not continually clogged by selfish dancers or exceedingly new beginners. My experience of logjams in the UK is of there being insufficient space front, rear or side to continue dancing in the way we are used to. Of course there are still ways to dance, but it requires significantly more skill to achieve anything other than marking time.

In particular, sitting on the heels of the blocking couple is it seems to me a rather risky business, since quite a few people are pattern-bound and cannot resist stepping backward. This would lead to harm and distress for my partner, an unforgiveable offence.

I would strive to change lanes as little as possible if it is crowded. If you have a slow person to deal with, work with them unless they continually stop when the music is calling for motion. I find any motion at all frees up opportunities to dance in circular fashion, whereas a total stoppage is a bigger problem.

I guess the bottom line is this: Don't collide with other couples. If that means staying in your blocked lane, so be it. If you have ample space to escape, take it.

NOTE: If in Buenos Aires, or any other place with mega-crowded floors, do not ever relinquish your space in the outside track. It's just easier if you can stay out of the scrum in the middle.

[Gssh]

Ride the slow poke
Dance "On his heels." This is a polite way to tell the rude person to, "Please move... you are causing a log jam." Don't give him time and space to movr backwards. eventually he'll get the idea.

I agree with "don't overtake, ever", but i want to add to the "on his heels part" - if you really feel the need to push somebody like that, do it after you have turned enough that he will step you YOU, and not your follower if he doesn't pay attention and does this huge backstep. Most of the time couples like that are not very aware of the "flow" of the dancefloor, and see other dancers more as obstacles than as partners who help create the energy and flow of the milonga. And above all, your follower is not a battering ram. And be aware that this is not really all that polite - the other leader will remember this, especially if he is actually waiting for a couple in front of him to move.

In general i would suggest just slowing down yourself - really, nobody is judging a tango by how many laps the couple managed to do.

I think this is a big deal because once a certain percentage of couples start overtaking, switching lanes, and crossing through to middle as a shortcut it becomes very difficult to navigate safely for everybody, and its kinda annoying to be forced into tiny, tiny tango to protect your partner because if there is any gap anywhere four different couples are going to rush and try to get into it. It probably depends on how many couples couples are on the dancefloor on average - if there is a lot of space it really doesn't matter, and if it is crowded enough nobody can overtake anyway, but there is a middle ground where zig-zagging couples can become really, really annoying.

Gssh

[Steve Pastor]

I may be misunderstanding this,
"the "better" dancers to keep to the outside lane. I have noticed that many of them will remain stationary for quite a while at the beginning of a track and then start with a giant sidestep left across the other track", but guys who do that are NOT better dancers.
"Better dancers" know that in general you don't move anywhere without knowing if you are going to either rum into someone, or cut them off. I'd say it's like changing lanes on the highway. If you can do so safely, by all means change lanes. Blocking two lanes of traffic is borish behavior.
Your other example of "better dancers", I think, who go really, really slow, is something you have to put up with. But, even though some places it is frowned upon, I'd say go ahead and change lanes if you can do so safely.
And heck, go to the middle of the floor to blow off some energy every now and then if you need to (if you don't mind the other crazies).
One famouse tango personality here in the Nortwest inevitably passes me on the outside of the "lane" I'm in, and gets run into. (Yes, he's trying to "sneak by" in my opinion. See teh last item in Ampster's post.) This has happened every single time he and I are on the floor at the same time.
For me the most annoying thing is when there is an energetic milonga being played, and people dance in place. (Hello! Listen to the energy in this song! Anyhow...)

"Riding someone's heels" is best done with the man dancing backwards, as has been noted. What you do is slowly move forward until you touch the other man. You are trying to tell him non verbally that he is holding up the line of dance.
You have to know when to back off with this, too. You can REALLY annoy soemone and make an "enemy", as has also been noted.
Weigh your options carefully.
If you decide to go there, you should know ahead of time that there may be conequences.
I'd say that technique is best left to the most experienced and established men.

All of this having been said, you will hopefully at some point take a lesson or two where they go over things you can do while "dancing on your own tile". Close embrace / apildao works really well for this, and it can really be not only a fun challenge, but very rewarding.

I've found that as I got better, I could handle these things more easily.
I like it when I have navigational challenges, but my partner has to be up to it, too.

[Cortado]

I may be misunderstanding this,
"the "better" dancers to keep to the outside lane. I have noticed that many of them will remain stationary for quite a while at the beginning of a track and then start with a giant sidestep left across the other track", but guys who do that are NOT better dancers.

I did not want to say this, but this criticism often applies to some teachers and other well known leaders who try to strut their show stuff even when it is crowded. They are definitely more skilled but not very considerate or modest.

I am normally very patient when dancing behind people who dance slower than the general flow because I enjoy "perfecting" the moves rather than dancing like a lunatic.

What I find difficult to deal with is dancers who stand there at least 15 seconds into the second or third track of a tanda chatting. Then they do a few balanceos and take a side step and pause.

Many a time I have started dancing on the spot, hoping that they will move and i find myself having to dance on the spot some more, and some more. Should I not start until they do? To me personally, if I have a had a good first dance, I do not want to go into a lengthy chat up to break the mood, a nice smile and we confortably get ready for the next one. What do people talk about anyway between dances? please educate me.

[kieronneedscake]

Oh dear, you've fallen afoul of an Argentinian custom. Over there, it is common for nobody to move until 30 seconds or a minute into a track, there is this game of chicken going on of who dares to start dancing first at the risk of looking silly, even if you don't have anything to talk about. Some people obviously can't leave that one behind or have pretenciously adopted it.

I would think there would be no objections to maneuvering around a non-dancing couple if the whole rest of the floor is in motion. In my opinion, it should be considered rude to block up the dance floor as a chatting pedestrian, just as it is rude to walk straight across the middle to get to the bar.

[Twirly]

Oh dear, you've fallen afoul of an Argentinian custom. Over there, it is common for nobody to move until 30 seconds or a minute into a track, there is this game of chicken going on of who dares to start dancing first at the risk of looking silly, even if you don't have anything to talk about. Some people obviously can't leave that one behind or have pretenciously adopted it.

I find it quite normal to wait before starting to dance, but maybe I'm just being pretentious. Seems to me that most tangos have a clear intro, and after a while they get going properly. I don't normally think about it, but I think I usually do talk for a bit first and then start dancing. Whenever my partner does not do this, but start dancing in the first few seconds, I feel a bit surprised.

[Twirly]

About overtaking, as mentioned already it doesn't seem to be a big deal here in the UK. As a follower I don't notice much if we're going fast or slow or stay in the same place for a bit. I quite enjoy doing half giros and ocho cortados anyway, much nicer than running around on the floor.

I do notice if the leader gets stressed out, which is a shame. And most of all I notice if I get kicked or am made to walk into another couple... So for me, the best option is to try to relax, dance in one spot if need be and turning frequently to see if there is a free spot somewhere.

But it's easy for me to say, I don't have to deal with it myself as I don't lead.

[Joe]

What's the problem with dancing around a couple that's just dancing in one spot?

[kieronneedscake]

I find it quite normal to wait before starting to dance, but maybe I'm just being pretentious. Seems to me that most tangos have a clear intro, and after a while they get going properly. I don't normally think about it, but I think I usually do talk for a bit first and then start dancing. Whenever my partner does not do this, but start dancing in the first few seconds, I feel a bit surprised.

Note that an intro of a 3 minute tango is very rarely an entire minute long. I have absolutely no problem with people taking a moment to adjust to the new music, breathe or exchange a few words. Standing around chatting because "it's what you do" while the floor bungs up behind you is a different matter.

When there's a conversation to be had, why not sit down and take a load off those aching tootsies?

[Peaches]

What's the problem with dancing around a couple that's just dancing in one spot?Generally considered bad etiquette. As the OP suggests, passing other couples on the dance floor is often/sometimes/possibly considered to be bad manners. Cutting across the middle definitely is. You're supposed to work with the space you've got, which is one reason I've heard for the way tango has so many stationary figures to it. Conversely, though, people are supposed to keep moving.

IMO, a lot depends on the size of the floor and how much open space there is. When things are really crowded, the "rules" become more important as it becomes kind of evident that they're there for a reason. But on comparatively big floors, where there's plenty of room, then I don't see the big deal. Then, as usual, so long as you're not gumming up the works or hurting your partner or others, then I fail to see why people get their knickers in a twist about a lot of stuff. Passing included.

[Twirly]

Generally considered bad etiquette. As the OP suggests, passing other couples on the dance floor is often/sometimes/possibly considered to be bad manners. Cutting across the middle definitely is. You're supposed to work with the space you've got, which is one reason I've heard for the way tango has so many stationary figures to it. Conversely, though, people are supposed to keep moving.

IMO, a lot depends on the size of the floor and how much open space there is. When things are really crowded, the "rules" become more important as it becomes kind of evident that they're there for a reason. But on comparatively big floors, where there's plenty of room, then I don't see the big deal. Then, as usual, so long as you're not gumming up the works or hurting your partner or others, then I fail to see why people get their knickers in a twist about a lot of stuff. Passing included.

I agree!

Rules are important when the floor is crowded, as it's about being considerate towards others. Not following rules just for the sake of it.

And yes, if everyone starts to dance around you, it is probably a bit rude to just stand around and chat. So everyone should be sensitive to what's going on on the floor as a whole.

[Dave Bailey]

Ride the slow poke
Dance "On his heels." This is a polite way to tell the rude person to, "Please move... you are causing a log jam." Don't give him time and space to movr backwards. eventually he'll get the idea.
Ummm, not sure about that, isn't it poor etiquette to use the follower as a bumper?

In the UK, the whole lanes thing gets decidedly sloppy. I would say that the customary "better dancers on the outside thing" is not generally observed.
I thought it was the opposite? In that, you're less likely to be blindsided on the outside, surely it's safer? I always assumed the inner area was for the more experienced dancers. :confused:

I'm sure a teacher's told me that, at least once, but I could be wrong...

I guess the bottom line is this: Don't collide with other couples. If that means staying in your blocked lane, so be it. If you have ample space to escape, take it. .
Absolutely.

[Dave Bailey]

Oh dear, you've fallen afoul of an Argentinian custom. Over there, it is common for nobody to move until 30 seconds or a minute into a track, there is this game of chicken going on of who dares to start dancing first at the risk of looking silly, even if you don't have anything to talk about. Some people obviously can't leave that one behind or have pretenciously adopted it.
That seems a bit strange. Why stand around when you could be dancing? Isn't the cortina for standing around in?

But yes, I've noticed that too at a few London venues - I didn't realise it was a custom. It's tempting to tap them on the shoulder to say "Any time you're ready..." - but I guess, that way lies Tango Nemesis-dom :)

[Peaches]

That seems a bit strange. Why stand around when you could be dancing? Isn't the cortina for standing around in?

But yes, I've noticed that too at a few London venues - I didn't realise it was a custom. It's tempting to tap them on the shoulder to say "Any time you're ready..." - but I guess, that way lies Tango Nemesis-dom :)No. The cortina is for switching partners. In between dances of the tanda (and overlapping into the start of each new song) it's customary to stand a chat a bit. Chat for a full 30 seconds into the new song?...well, that seems a bit much, but it happens. You're not "supposed" to start dancing right away. (Granted, not being good at small talk myself, I really hate this custom.) But neither are you supposed to be still standing around talking while other people have taken up dancing.

[timbp]

That seems a bit strange. Why stand around when you could be dancing? Isn't the cortina for standing around in?

But yes, I've noticed that too at a few London venues - I didn't realise it was a custom. It's tempting to tap them on the shoulder to say "Any time you're ready..." - but I guess, that way lies Tango Nemesis-dom :)

I know nothing about customs in Buenos Aires or London.

I am just a beginner, but I try not to crash (or even bump) my follower into others, and I try to dance to the music.
When a track starts, I have to both find the beat (and the 1), and find space before I can move. If there is someone close ahead of me, I must wait for him to move (giving me space), then for the next 1 to move myself. 30 seconds seems minimal for the process to propagate around the entire dance floor.

[Twirly]

I thought it was the opposite? In that, you're less likely to be blindsided on the outside, surely it's safer? I always assumed the inner area was for the more experienced dancers. :confused:

I'm sure a teacher's told me that, at least once, but I could be wrong...



As a general rule "better" dancers dance on the outside. They know that it's a good place just because you have more control as there is nobody next to you on one side, and they don't mind moving slowly around the floor. It's also a good place for showing off your lady and/or yourself to the people around the dance floor.

People who want to do complicated figures / nuevo stuff go to the middle as there is usually more space there. This is also a good place for beginners who feel uncomfortable in the crowded outside lane and who might want to hide a bit from everybody watching on the side.

And then we have the ones who run around all over the dance floor. There are quite a lot of them, unfortunately. And it's very common that dancers are considered (by themselves or beginners) to be "advanced" just because they like doing flashy moves badly.

Anyway, it's best to keep in mind that a lot of the rules about what one "should" do and what the "good" dancers do are based on traditional settings in Bs As with crowded floors and a very close, simple way of dancing.

[dchester]

What is the general advice on overtaking? Is it done only at the last resort and only on the inside. What is the best way of knowing if the way is clear left and behind you. Generally speaking how many times would you expect/have/choose to change lanes in a tanda? For me, it's as simple as only passing if you are confident you can do so without bumbing/disrupting others. Obviously, if the dancers in front of you have room and are not advancing, then that couple (actually the leader) is causing a disruption. If it continually happens, I'd pass that couple.


What I find difficult to deal with is dancers who stand there at least 15 seconds into the second or third track of a tanda chatting. Then they do a few balanceos and take a side step and pause.

Many a time I have started dancing on the spot, hoping that they will move and i find myself having to dance on the spot some more, and some more. Should I not start until they do? To me personally, if I have a had a good first dance, I do not want to go into a lengthy chat up to break the mood, a nice smile and we confortably get ready for the next one. What do people talk about anyway between dances? please educate me. IMO, 15 seconds is a typical/reasonable amount time to wait before starting (and at least where I dance, it's the custom). Also, a lot of dancers start off with a side step (or a salida). Basically, a lot of this stuff is based on customs that started a long time ago in Buenos Aires, and everyone still continues these rituals (even if the reasons for doing them long ago, no longer exist today). As the saying goes, when in Rome, do as the Romans do.

[bordertangoman]

..... then start with a giant sidestep left across the other track. One or two of them will also dance more slowly than the rest and force the rest to dance at their pace.

What is the general advice on overtaking? Is it done only at the last resort and only on the inside. What is the best way of knowing if the way is clear left and behind you. Generally speaking how many times would you expect/have/choose to change lanes in a tanda?

If not in Bs As overtake if there is room to do so; we are relaxed here beginners tend to gravitate toward the middle.

I've had the experience of being barged into by a very experienced dancer who was talking (ie teaching his partner ) for a good half a song before moving. It nearly came to blows. I was furious. My partner took the brunt of the impact but it knocked us both sideways.

[Ampster]

Ummm, not sure about that, isn't it poor etiquette to use the follower as a bumper?

Yes, it is poor etiquette to run into anyone or anything. That's a no-no. I was not advocating that. I was suggesting that you approach the log jamming person and dance close enough in order for him to get the hint that he needs to move/dance small.

Also, in my first reply, those rules are there to use when you dance in a packed milonga, where there is hardly any room to move, let alone dance large, or obstruct traffic.

[kieronneedscake]

What do people talk about anyway between dances? please educate me.

I believe the most contemporary answer is to use those few seconds to carefully flatter your partner in order to relax them and make the next dance even better. It may also serve as a golden moment to woo if you are so inclined.

Practically speaking, my lack of Spanish meant the time waiting for the floor to grind into motion was spent trying to understand and communicate anything nice to my partners. Back home I talk a lot less on the floor, preferring to keep my partner's mind in the moment rather than wandering into discussions of work, health or holidays.

[Ampster]

I agree!

Rules are important when the floor is crowded, as it's about being considerate towards others. Not following rules just for the sake of it.

And yes, if everyone starts to dance around you, it is probably a bit rude to just stand around and chat. So everyone should be sensitive to what's going on on the floor as a whole.

Quite correct. To give a perspective on why these rules for lines of dance exist, imagine a space no bigger than a garage with at leat 10 couples there dancing. It's THAT crowded. So, if you don't move, move to big, or, move haphazzardly, you become a navigation hazard to your partner and to everyone else around you.

Some milongas here in Seattle are like that. So, people follow the lines of dance. On the other hand, there are venues with gobs of space where it is not such a big deal.

[Ampster]

That seems a bit strange. Why stand around when you could be dancing? Isn't the cortina for standing around in?



As Peaches said, the Cortina is for changing partners. The reason you stand around a bit, emphasis on... A BIT, is for you and your partner to absorb the rhythm of the song, and to position yourselves on the same foot prior to moving off.

This delay gives the leader the chance to "Read the music" in order for him a chance to express his musicality.

[Ampster]

I thought it was the opposite? In that, you're less likely to be blindsided on the outside, surely it's safer? I always assumed the inner area was for the more experienced dancers. :confused:


The general rule is that the more experienced dancers dance on the outside because the line here goes faster, and you are totally blindsided on the right. you keep that track because any farther, and you'd hit the tables or the wall.

If you want to be more comfortable with space and also at a slower pace, stay on the inside, as it gets progressively wider and slower. The widest and slowest being in the center where you simply can just dance in place.

[Ampster]

What do people talk about anyway between dances? please educate me.

Given the right partner, we just stand there for a few seconds in a sweet embrace :friend:... Then move off before we create a traffic jam.

[Peaches]

Given the right partner, we just stand there for a few seconds in a sweet embrace :friend:... Then move off before we create a traffic jam.Ah, yes. My favorite thing to do between songs of a tanda...nothing at all. Never break the embrace, don't talk, don't move. Just stand and feel. *swoon*

[Me]

If I am with a competent partner who is weary of the couple in front of us who simply will not move, dancing past them in a skillful and non-disruptive manner does not bother me at all. I just follow. I'll probably twirk off some DFrs here but I couldn't care less if 'passing' a couple is considered 'rude' in Argentina. My fellow Southerners have adopted the dance and love it and strive to understand the culture, and thankfully, blindly following a 'norm' that is foreign to ourselves is something along the lines of ignorance and superstition, not respect. We absorb, adapt and respect... but not necessarily do we conform. Can't we just dance?

But I would like to know this - In ARGENTINA - If you pass a couple and do not interrupt their dancing, what is hurt? Pride? Somebody enlighten me - Why is this 'rude'? Around here it's root hog or die (my poor partner cringes every time I say this) Okay... things are a bit more civilized on the dance floor albeit, but nonetheless...

[Peaches]

If I am with a competent partner who is weary of the couple in front of us who simply will not move, dancing past them in a skillful and non-disruptive manner does not bother me at all. I just follow. I'll probably twirk off some DFrs here but I couldn't care less if 'passing' a couple is considered 'rude' in Argentina. My fellow Southerners have adopted the dance and love it and strive to understand the culture, and thankfully, blindly following a 'norm' that is foreign to ourselves is something along the lines of ignorance and superstition, not respect. We absorb, adapt and respect... but not necessarily do we conform. Can't we just dance?

But I would like to know this - In ARGENTINA - If you pass a couple and do not interrupt their dancing, what is hurt? Pride? Somebody enlighten me - Why is this 'rude'? Around here it's root hog or die (my poor partner cringes every time I say this) Okay... things are a bit more civilized on the dance floor albeit, but nonetheless...Whole-heartedly agree.

As for the Argentina thing...I'm not sure. The milongas (all three of them) that I saw there were exceptionally crowded by my (American?) standards. I've only ever encountered that once here. And in those situations, passing people would have been more disruptive than dancing in place. If, in fact, you could have even passed people w/o bumping them. Which could be the origin for the tradition.

[Twirly]

And in those situations, passing people would have been more disruptive than dancing in place. If, in fact, you could have even passed people w/o bumping them. Which could be the origin for the tradition.

I believe this is correct. One of the most important things by far when dancing should be to protect the lady so she feels safe and can relax. If you try to change lanes on a crowded floor chances are you'll bump into someone.

A bit like driving a car, really.

[Dave Bailey]

Yes, it is poor etiquette to run into anyone or anything. That's a no-no. I was not advocating that. I was suggesting that you approach the log jamming person and dance close enough in order for him to get the hint that he needs to move/dance small..
Hmmm, I suspect that anyone insensitive enough to be a logjam is likely to be insensitive enough to ignore hints.

But I dunno, I've never tried that technique - does it work well, in your experience?

[Joe]

I believe this is correct. One of the most important things by far when dancing should be to protect the lady so she feels safe and can relax. If you try to change lanes on a crowded floor chances are you'll bump into someone.

A bit like driving a car, really.
So...is it OK to pass couples who are standing in the left lane, on the right (reverse directions for those living in Blighty and Commonwealth)?

[Peaches]

One of the most important things by far when dancing should be to protect the lady so she feels safe and can relax. Exactly. We can't do what we do if we can't relax and trust the leader. And there's no way we're going to relax and trust the leader if he's being an a$$ and bumping us into other people, or taking risks that make us think we'll be bumping other people.

[Peaches]

A bit like driving a car, really.Perhaps I shouldn't ask how flashing one's headlights at the offender comes into play in this analogy.

[Twirly]

Perhaps I shouldn't ask how flashing one's headlights at the offender comes into play in this analogy.

;)

[Ampster]

Hmmm, I suspect that anyone insensitive enough to be a logjam is likely to be insensitive enough to ignore hints.

But I dunno, I've never tried that technique - does it work well, in your experience?

There are people who just don't care. Some try to emulate and do a "Gavito" and do huge dramatic looooong pauses, some are the nuevo people who do these big huge moves in place for a loooong time.... :headwall: AGGRAVATING!

Anyway, IME, yes it does work. People do the "Log jamming" things because they tink "they can." Also, because of a lack of education... If you don't let them, they'll move along. Just be sure that you do it while protecting your partner. You do it with giros so you can be aware of things all around you.

[Gssh]

There is another side to the "overtaking" question, and that is how it is experienced by the follower. During a class on navigation one of my teacher once explained that to her it was very important that the leader was in general moving in one direction only, and that switching lanes and overtaking other couple felt frazzled and indecisive to her. And when i follow at a crowded practica i feel something similar - it is noticable when the leader starts hunting for gap in the other line, instead of dancing. My idea is that i want my follower to feel like we are just floating with the music and the other dancers, and that all ebbs and flows of the dance are natural. I think it shoudl almost feel like we are alone on the dancefloor, and that my navigation is more like musicality - picking up patterns and interpreting them, than it is avoiding obstacles.

Gssh

[Ampster]

There is another side to the "overtaking" question, and that is how it is experienced by the follower. During a class on navigation one of my teacher once explained that to her it was very important that the leader was in general moving in one direction only, and that switching lanes and overtaking other couple felt frazzled and indecisive to her. And when i follow at a crowded practica i feel something similar - it is noticable when the leader starts hunting for gap in the other line, instead of dancing. My idea is that i want my follower to feel like we are just floating with the music and the other dancers, and that all ebbs and flows of the dance are natural. I think it shoudl almost feel like we are alone on the dancefloor, and that my navigation is more like musicality - picking up patterns and interpreting them, than it is avoiding obstacles.

Gssh

Well said!

[Angel HI]

Interesting thread. I've been away, but have read the entire thing, now. Indulge me, please, while we do some clarifying....

1. The "tradition" of waiting for a few moments at the beginning of the song, was not to chit chat, but as Amp said, to listen to, and appreciate, the musiclaity of the new song, then move (remember, the earlier dancers were not interested in which pattern should I do this time...thye danced because of the music). Incidentally, in BsAs, for those who still believe that we have to do it because they do, most know the aforementioned, and start relatively at the same time.

2. In BsAs, we/they have encountered places where overtaking was simply, because of crowds, not an option...hence, neither an issue. Yet, there were other palces where space was available and dancers took it if there was a need/desire to do so. I have been to workshops with argentines where one would teach to never pass, and the other would come rigt behind them and say that it is OK. The bottom line...be courteous of the music, your parrtner, and the other dancers, and whether behind of; in front of; beside of; or passing...just dance.

3. LOD is just the law. It has been around since way before tango, and is simply what dancers are to do...follow the d*&! Line of Dance, or get off of the floor. Level of expertise gives no one carte blanche to dance all over hell and back (inside lane/ outside lane, crap) and be discourteous to others. Dancers, including so-called pros (teachers, etc) who are not following LOD, or who are slinging kung fu voleos/planeos (I stole that term from someone...) all over the place, should be; a) politely reminded, b) politely reprimanded, c) asked to leave the floor.

Be courteous...just be courteous, and common sense will happen.

[kieronneedscake]

Interesting thread. I've been away, but have read the entire thing, now. Indulge me, please, while we do some clarifying....

1. The "tradition" of waiting for a few moments at the beginning of the song, was not to chit chat, but as Amp said, to listen to, and appreciate, the musiclaity of the new song, then move (remember, the earlier dancers were not interested in which pattern should I do this time...thye danced because of the music). Incidentally, in BsAs, for those who still believe that we have to do it because they do, most know the aforementioned, and start relatively at the same time.

It's so easy to appreciate the new song when you're talking and the general hubbub of the room masks any subtlety there may be in the music. Every little nuance wafts subliminally into my brain even while I am discussing the price of vegetables.

While I think Ampsters ideal of actually listening to the music before dancing good and something I actively do, I think the practical application is one of talking out of habit because you can't do anything else until the merry throng collectively decides to dance.

To select an alternative viewpoint, some of your real veteran dancers of a decade or more must surely recognise almost every piece of music played in an evening, and thus slide into it without prelude. No need to listen so closely if it is already playing in the mind.

[Angel HI]

To select an alternative viewpoint, some of your real veteran dancers of a decade or more must surely recognise almost every piece of music played in an evening, and thus slide into it without prelude. No need to listen so closely if it is already playing in the mind.

Very true, yet the appreciation comes not from already knowing the song, but from the variances of each maestro and orquesta who/that plays it, and allowing the partner to do the same...to one's self and in sharing conversation with partner.

[Cortado]

Very interesting replies. Thank you.

Another point spring to mind -

Some of you are saying that the outside lane goes faster than the inside lane and the people right in the centre (?) effectively dance on the spot, effectively like a spinning wheel.

Others say that the outside lane dancers dance soulfully and slowly while the inside lane dancers go around like demented maniacs. In effect the outside dancers would cover just a fraction of the circle whilst the inside dancers could have gone round once. They would be passing by on the inside.

what is you opinion on this?

[Angel HI]

That it is the same as in BR...wonderful in theory, but just doesn't always work out in reality (often to no one's fault...it just doesn't always).

[Twirly]

Some of you are saying that the outside lane goes faster than the inside lane and the people right in the centre (?) effectively dance on the spot, effectively like a spinning wheel.

Others say that the outside lane dancers dance soulfully and slowly while the inside lane dancers go around like demented maniacs. In effect the outside dancers would cover just a fraction of the circle whilst the inside dancers could have gone round once. They would be passing by on the inside.

what is you opinion on this?

In my personal experience the outside lane is considered the best place to dance, which means that there are more people dancing there, which makes it more crowded, which makes it slower. It also seems to be the preferred place to dance particularly for dancers who like to dance in a more simple way, and who are not in a hurry.

To me, if you dance in the outside lane it means you are accepting a more traditional way of dancing. If you go closer to the middle anything can happen.

But again, it all depends...

[bordertangoman]

if in the outside lane you can also pinch food and drink from tables as you go past so less need for pit stops. ;)

[kieronneedscake]

if in the outside lane you can also pinch food and drink from tables as you go past so less need for pit stops. ;)

Or fire random voleos off through doors and other empty spaces...

[dchester]

if in the outside lane you can also pinch food and drink from tables as you go past so less need for pit stops. ;)
They never cover moves like that in any of my classes. I need to find a new teacher.

:tongue:

[Peaches]

Seems to me that's a new level of profiency. There's the "Can you dance and chew gum at the same time?" level...and then there's "Can you swipe food while dancing?" level.

[bastet]

Seems to me that's a new level of profiency. There's the "Can you dance and chew gum at the same time?" level...and then there's "Can you swipe food while dancing?" level.

Yes...there could be a new game...how to direct your boleos to swipe pretzels off tables and catch them as they fall off the stiletto on the rebound. :p