Starting a ballroom orchestra

[Robin12]

Hi:

I've started working on creating a 13-piece orchestra specificially for playing ballroom music. So far, I've talked to some of the dance instructors in town (they all seem enthusiastic with the idea), found most of the musicians interested, and have started to work on the sheet music arrangements. And this is where my query lies.

With each sheet music arrangement taking several hours to write, and needing at least fifty of them just to start to do dances, I have to choose songs that will be dancable. In other words, I need to know what dancers want.

So...

1) What tunes are perrenial favorites?

2) What kind of tunes and in what ratio should there be? How many swing, how many latin (and what kind), how many waltzes and slow songs, etc.

3) any other advice on what makes a good ballroom band (and how to avoid being a bad one) would be appreciated.

[fascination]

have a clue about appropriate beats per minute...and keep it steady....

[jwlinson]

have a clue about appropriate beats per minute...and keep it steady....

I have to definitely echo this. We have a local band that does a lot of the ballroom dances around here. They're good to listen to, but as far as dancing goes...

They're danceable, but 1) their tempo changes throughout many of their songs and 2) some songs are either way too fast or way too slow. One year they played a completely unbearable tango... so sloooooow.

To their credit, they're constantly asking the dance community for input and they're heeding our advice.

As far as the OP's questions:

1) Lots of big band favorites. Just about anything done by the major big bands of the 40's and 50's, such as Glenn Miller, Benny Goodman, etc. You'll almost always hear "String of Pearls," "Woodchopper's Ball," "Tuxedo Junction," "In The Mood," "Sing Sing Sing," etc. "La Cumparsita" is a classic tango, "Brazil" a samba, and "Tea For Two" a cha-cha. Our local band also always does "Tequila." Some bands we've danced to even compose their own, or find good uncommon pieces to play. That always adds to the mix.

2) Just give a good variety. Most big bands play many swings, quicksteps, and foxtrots, a few cha-chas and rumbas, and the occasional tango and viennese. Personally I don't mind several foxtrots in a row, but other people may not think so. Just try to throw in a good variety.

3) see above. I also have to add you should try to keep your songs somewhere around the 3-4 minute mark. Many bands we've danced to will do those long marathon pieces where they play a medley of songs all at once. It's great to listen to, but murder to dance to.

I personally love dancing to a live orchestra. It definitely adds to the ambiance, and it's timeless. Good luck to you!

[Chris Stratton]

Good to hear you are tackling this project.

First thing to do is to attend an assortment of the kinds of dances you would like to play, and get an idea of what is going on there, what is popular, and just the general dynamic.

For music, most of the issue is how you play it, not the tune itself.

Picking an appropriate tempo and sticking to it is very important. The appropriate tempo will vary by setting though - for example, foxtrot with people shuffling around the floor could be as much as 140 bpm or even faster, with more advanced dancers gliding around the floor it should be a little under 120. Slow waltzes should be 90 bpm or less for the more gliding movements, but can be a little faster in beginner contexts, country style vs. ballroom, etc - in both cases, watching the floor can help: do people look like they are falling over waiting for the beat, being rushed to catch it, or simply ignoring it? On the latin side, an american rumba will be faster, an international one slower, but also having a different character in the percussion.

Beware of bridge sections having a different character that may not fit the style of a dance very well, even if the rest of the chart does.

When starting out it may make sense to initially do mixed gigs that alternate you with recorded music. That gives you a break, but it also gives you feedback - if people who were sitting out your sets get up and dance to the recorded music, you may have missed the target (that or they were really enjoying listening to you)

Another idea is that with a teacher or some experienced dancers or two, you could probably 'audition' ideas with just a rhythm section (what's really important) and optionally a piano or even melody instrument approximating the tune - if they think it will work, then you can go to the effort of doing the arrangement.

[delamusica]

Avoid meter changes like the plague.

Keep a steady tempo.

Don't play more than two of the same style song in a row.

Maybe ask your dancer friends to lend you a few of their practice cds for song ideas. There are a ton of ballroom cds with compilations of really well-known dance songs on them, usually listed along with the speed and appropriate dance style for the song.

[suburbaknght]

I strongly recommend looking at the MIT dance DJ page (http://ballroom.mit.edu/dancesport/dj.html). While designed for DJs, the advice is useful for anyone putting together a set of music.

[fascination]

and now...fo rmy two cents on the other stuff;....I really don't nee dthe tired old favorites...juyst make sure if you call it a rumba, its a rumba, and if you call it a wlatz it isn't some fast country thing that just happens to be in 3/4 time...as for ratios;...my preference is 50/50 smooth to rhythm...but realistically speaking it is probably smarter to do 2 rhthym to every 1 smooth song...just my opinion

[Chris Stratton]

but realistically speaking it is probably smarter to do 2 rhthym to every 1 smooth song...just my opinion

Strongly disagree, even if the floor seems too crowded for the more moving dances. If you only play the smooth songs once per several rhythm, it means everyone will dance them and it will stay too crowded. But if you play a balance, enough will sit out any given number that crowding is more reasonable.

Also, personally I think playing by style group is a very bad idea - the only conceivable benefit is if someone wants to change shoes, but few do that, otherwise is just does weird things to the group dance/rest dynamics - much better to keep the assortment evenly spread so that deciding to dance or sit out can be more about who you are dancing with, and less about "this is my one opportunity to do ___ so I have to take it"

Another way of expressing that - a social should be about

1) people
2) dancing
3) music

In another order, it's concert or a competition

[fascination]

not certain how my post says all that you read into it...but I'll clarify...

seems like most folks like to dance rhthym around here...the vast majority...many smooth numbers aren't participated in as much(never mind even considering QS, or jive)...if the orchestra/band is playing for a paying group...my view is that the overall satisfaction level will be higher if the ratio is slightly higher in the rhythm genre...(again, I would personally rather dance the others, but that is my honest assessment...and therefore...that does mean more people(1), dancing(2), to the music(3).

[Robin12]

and now...fo rmy two cents on the other stuff;....I really don't nee dthe tired old favorites...juyst make sure if you call it a rumba, its a rumba, and if you call it a wlatz it isn't some fast country thing that just happens to be in 3/4 time...as for ratios;...my preference is 50/50 smooth to rhythm...but realistically speaking it is probably smarter to do 2 rhthym to every 1 smooth song...just my opinion

Now when you say smooth and rhythm songs, is that also differing the swing from the latin - can we way four different kinds of music: hot & smooth swing, and hot & smooth latin? Should all waltzes be played slow and smooth, or can you mix the waltz ballads with fast Viennese ones? How many waltzes would one want to dance to in an evening? And how many tangos polkas and other non-mainstream dances would be appropriate?

Also, I'm guessing that there's certain styles that also fit with certain age groups, that younger dancers prefer a hotter song list and tempos.

[Chris Stratton]

Robin, we seem to be speaking different languages ;-)

Please take a look at the MIT DJ'ing page linked above to get an idea of dance style names/families from the ballroom perspective. C&W, specialty types of swing (as opposed to the somewhat plain ballroom variety), and Argentine style tango will also have their own unique views.

[Chris Stratton]

that does mean more people(1), dancing(2), to the music(3).

Only somewhat related, but one point I was trying to make is that having everyone constantly on the floor should not be the goal. It tends to suggest that quantity of experience is more important than quality. This can come up for a variety of reasons - the group doesn't really click with each other so nobody has what feel like great dances, or everybody is trying to dance at once at simply making it too crowded, or there's an artificial scarcity of some dances meaning that when they are played people who have been waiting for them feel compelled to take the opportunity.

Instead, I think it works best when there's a slight over-supply of opportunity such that people don't feel compelled to take every single one and can put a bit more thought into who they'd like to dance with and how, instead of "this is my one shot at a waltz or samba for the next hour so I'd better take it" - when they can instead say "actually I don't really need to dance this one" then the situation has developed from one of desperation ruled by the playlist to one with time for appreciation of dancers and dancing.

[fascination]

chris...I agree though it would probably help if we knew precisely what venue robin was targeting...

robin--
there are for main styles of ballroom dance, latin, rhythm, smooth and standard...the various dances you are referencing fall with one of those 4 categories for the most part...perhaps you might consider going to a studio dance party to get a better sense of the distinctions.......good luck

[Robin12]

chris...I agree though it would probably help if we knew precisely what venue robin was targeting...

robin--
there are for main styles of ballroom dance, latin, rhythm, smooth and standard...

I'm going for a middle-aged audience who are dancing for the fun of it. People who are 35-65. I'm already having a modest success playing concerts at retirement centers.

I think the confusion is what constitutes the four styles; I'm thinking more about the music than the steps taken to them. Can a piece of music be smooth and latin? Is rhythm another way of saying hot swing? Does standard mean 2-beat?

[tanya_the_dancer]

I'm going for a middle-aged audience who are dancing for the fun of it. People who are 35-65. I'm already having a modest success playing concerts at retirement centers.

I think the confusion is what constitutes the four styles; I'm thinking more about the music than the steps taken to them. Can a piece of music be smooth and latin? Is rhythm another way of saying hot swing? Does standard mean 2-beat?

You really, really, really need to check out what the tempo should be for different dances. The #1 reason I avoid live bands is that their tempos are mostly all wrong. Most common situation is that they will play a piece of music which could be either swing or foxtrot but with tempo too fast to be a good foxtrot and too slow to be a good swing.

Standard does not mean 2-beat. Each dance style covers several different dances. There is some overlap between smooth and standard dances, and between latin and rhythm dances. So a piece of music can be suitable for both smooth and standard or for rhythm and latin, but probably not smooth/latin, there is one exception - a piece suitable for quickstep (standard) can also work for swing (rhythm).

[fascination]

I'm going for a middle-aged audience who are dancing for the fun of it. People who are 35-65. I'm already having a modest success playing concerts at retirement centers.

I think the confusion is what constitutes the four styles; I'm thinking more about the music than the steps taken to them. Can a piece of music be smooth and latin? Is rhythm another way of saying hot swing? Does standard mean 2-beat?
well...one CAN. dance just about anything to anything...again, that is why I am suggesting that you go to a studio dance for clarity...and I don't have the foggiest clue as to what hot swing means..nor do I get the question about standard...really think you would benefit from some ballroom CDs...hard to find but possible at places like virgin records...and more importantly at ballroom studio parties...if your focus is the social ballroom dancer

[Chiron]

I think it would really cool if you had a live band that could play good ballroom music. I would suggest taking some basic ballroom classes if you have the time. You would be exposed to the different music typically used and understand why and what things would really annoy the dancers (i.e. a fluctuating tempo). If you don't have the time for lessons definately go to a studio and check out their social parties, while not as good as the understanding you would get from dancing it should help to clue you into some of the things. To understand what people mean by standard, smooth, latin, and rhythm I would suggest you check the dance section of the wikipedia entry on ballroom dance or ballroomdancers.com. Good luck with the project!

[Chris Stratton]

I think the confusion is what constitutes the four styles; I'm thinking more about the music than the steps taken to them.

That's sensible from your perspective, but leads to conclusions that look mixed up from ours.

the smooth/standard family: waltz, tango, foxtrot, viennese waltz, quickstep (, peabody, polka)

the latin/rhythm family: cha cha, rumba, samba, swing/jive, mambo, salsa and other rhythms

From a music perspective this looks a bit mixed up: for example swing isn't really a latin rhythm, but the dance techniques are closer to those of the latin rhythm dances, so it's placed there. But yes, there's music that works for swing or foxtrot, or for very fast swing or quickstep.

How to handle the same-music-different-dance situation depends on the setting. In more casual contexts you can play things that work for both and the dancers will respond as suits their preference. In more determined ballroom circles you need to play a tempo that really fits one or the other so that there's a group consensus on what it is and a compatible traffic flow results.

And then there's things that you can push one way or another by interpretation - Tea for Two for example can be played as either a rumba or a foxtrot, probably off the same page if you have a creative rhythm section and a band ready to take the cue from them.

[Joe]

Tea for Two is also a cha-cha!

Robin, my suggestion to you is to listen to a bunch of ballroom music to get a feel for what people actually want to dance to. Supposedly there's a bunch of suggestions in the Dance Music Guide link at the top right of each page here.

[Indiana_Jay]

Musicians use terminology that has some similarities to dance terminology but often has different meanings. This could be causing some confusion here.

For example, what the leader of a big band might call "swing" might well be music to which a quickstep is best danced. An example would be any "straight ahead" tune with a tempo of around 200 beats per minute. And around here, the quickstep is rarely danced at a social dance.

What a band leader might call a jazz "standard" might not be appropriate for any of the dances we call "standard" (slow waltz, slow foxtrot, quickstep, Viennese waltz, tango), especially if the tempo is below 112 beats per minute.

What a band leader might call "rockabilly" might be more appropriate for what dancers call "east coast swing" than what the band leader would call "swing."

So, to avoid the terminology confusion, I agree that Robin or any other band leader would do well to listen to some recordings of music created especially for dancers to get a feel for the tempi and style (particularly rhythm style) each dance requires. To help Robin out, perhaps we could list here at least one "classic," recognizable tune used for each of our favorite dances. For example:

Foxtrot: Orange Colored Sky (I particularly like Natalie Cole's recording).
Cha-cha: Oye Como Va (Santana or Puente)
Slow waltz: Fascination (played 84 - 120 beats per minute)
Rumba: Perfida (note the characteristic half note-quarter note-quarter note bass rhythm).
Tango: Hernando's Hideaway (note, however, that the same tune is set as a cha-cha in Debelah Morgan's "Dance with Me." This provides a good example of how style is nearly as important as tempo.)

Below are the tempo standards for competitions (taken from the USA Dance web site). While social dances need not be restricted to these regulation tempi, they provide a useful guide. I'd be interested in hearing from other posters how a band that's playing a social event should decide between an international tempo and an American style tempo when they are different. For example, international foxtrot and rumba are slower than their American style counterparts.

Robin, dancers list tempi in measures per minute, not beats per minute, so you'll have to do your own math. Be aware that everything is four beats per measure except the waltzes (obviously) and the samba, which is in two. Also be aware that the Viennese Waltz and quickstep are not usually taught to beginners, so fewer people at a social dance might know them. I've never seen a Paso Doble danced socially.


Dance
MPM
International Waltz
28-30
International Tango
31-33
International Viennese Waltz
58-60
International Slow Foxtrot
28-30
International Quickstep
50-52


International Samba
50-52
International Cha Cha
30-32
International Rumba
25-27
International Paso Doble
60-62
International Jive
42-44


American Waltz
28-30
American Tango
30-32
American Foxtrot
30-32
American Viennese Waltz
54


American Cha Cha
30
American Rumba
32-36
American East Coast Swing
34-36
American Bolero
24-26
American Mambo
47-51


American Peabody
60-62
American Merengue
29-32
American Paso Doble
58-60
American Samba
52
American West Coast Swing
28-32
American Polka
60-62
American Hustle
28-30

[DennisBeach]

Mix varies with the area. So check with dancers in your area. Mix it up well. It you are planning on doing three tangos, spread them out over the program for example.

It may save some work to have some ballroom dancers listento the songs you know and tell you which ones fit a ballroom dance and possibly how to adjust some of the others. That may reduce how much music you have to put together. A lot of popular songs from the last 80 years, were originally record as excellent dance music. Using some of them, may reduce your work in getting going. The one big band in this area, that does good ballroom music, uses that approach.

Big thing is to ask the dancers. We have an excellent big band and 5 piece ballroom combo, they really listen to us and keep getting better.

If you put together some good ballroom music, you may find your group getting a lot of other bookings, such as weddings.

[madmaximus]

Hi:
any other advice on what makes a good ballroom band (and how to avoid being a bad one) would be appreciated.

Learn ballroom dancing.





m

[Robin12]

The leader of a big band might call "swing" might well be music to which a quickstep is best danced...any "straight ahead" tune with a tempo of around 200 beats per minute. And around here, the quickstep is rarely danced at a social dance. What a band leader might call a jazz "standard" might not be appropriate for any of the dances we call "standard" (slow waltz, slow foxtrot, quickstep, Viennese waltz, tango), especially if the tempo is below 112 beats per minute.

Jay, you've hit the nail on the head of what I've been trying to find out. A huge thanks for those tempo markings.

Unfortunately, time doesn't allow me to take ballroom dancing. However, there's a dance studio owner who already seems interested in this project and has been helping my out tremendously. I think she wants the band to give public rehearsals - a mutual backscratching, so to speak.

Now the only thing left is to try to figure out how many of which kind of tunes. With 13 musicians, written sheet music charts are a must, and with a dance needing about 50 songs or so, it's better to make sure you don't waste time writing out too many of the wrong kind.

[Indiana_Jay]

Jay, you've hit the nail on the head of what I've been trying to find out. A huge thanks for those tempo markings.

Robin:

Very glad to be of assistance. As you might have guessed, I'm a fellow musician who only recently took up ballroom dancing. I've played on occasion in jazz big bands.

Now the only thing left is to try to figure out how many of which kind of tunes. With 13 musicians, written sheet music charts are a must, and with a dance needing about 50 songs or so, it's better to make sure you don't waste time writing out too many of the wrong kind.Yeah, I think some other posters to this thread gave you some good ideas there. I think a pretty even number of foxtrots, slow waltzes, rumbas, cha-chas and east coast swings (60s rock/rockabilly) would be a good start, with a sprinkling of quickstep and Viennese waltz (maybe one or two of each per night) and a few (two or three) mambos, sambas, jitterbugs (what we dancers sometimes call "single swing" -- most of the stuff on Big Bad Voodoo Daddy's CDs) and tangos would serve you pretty well for starters.

To find out what specific tunes are popular for each dance, have a look at the Dance Music Guide (http://www.dance-forums.com/music/) on this forum. Then, you just gotta make sure your charts are in the right tempo and style (especially with regard to background rhythms) for each dance.

Good luck!

-IJ

[Robin12]

For all of you that have replied to this thread, thank you. You've been a great help.

Anyway, the book has been written (enough for a 3-hour dance. Whew!), and I've finally got the musicians into practice. Without going into all of the songs, the breakdown is:

5 Jitterbug
6 East coast swing
8 fox trot
4 rumba
10 cha-cha
5 fast latin (style depending upon the drummer's mood)
7 slow waltz
2 Vienneze waltz
2 tango
---
1 polka
2 peabody
2 bossa nova
3 box step

Interesting side note: The musicians keep saying I'm counting off the waltzes too slow. I have to explain to them that it's the proper dance tempo.

Does anyone think I need more of ____________?

[Indiana_Jay]

5 Jitterbug
6 East coast swing
8 fox trot
4 rumba
10 cha-cha
5 fast latin (style depending upon the drummer's mood)
7 slow waltz
2 Vienneze waltz
2 tango
---
1 polka
2 peabody
2 bossa nova
3 box step

Does anyone think I need more of ____________?

Robin:

I think this is a very good start! Just a few comments:



I'm not sure what you mean by "box step." Perhaps its a regional thing.
I know what bossa nova music is and I don't know a dance by that name (it probably exists, but I don't happen to know it) but I believe rumbas can be danced to most bossa nova tunes.
You might be a tiny bit heavy on cha-cha vs. foxtrot and slow waltz. At most social dances I attend, the floor is usually most crowded during the slow waltz (indicating it's the most popular dance).
Maybe one more tango. If you play the first one and don't get many dancers, you can drop the third, but the third would be good if tango turns out to be popular on a given night.

I'd love to hear your group! Maybe you'll make a few mp3 excepts sometime.

-IJ

[kayak]

5 Jitterbug
6 East coast swing
8 fox trot
4 rumba
10 cha-cha
5 fast latin (style depending upon the drummer's mood)
7 slow waltz
2 Vienneze waltz
2 tango
---
1 polka
2 peabody
2 bossa nova
3 box step


I was just going to comment that in a social dance, most people will combine Jitter Bug and ECS as basically one dance type. So you have 11 swing dances.

Also, around my area dancers would be looking for west coast swing songs.

Also in my area, there are tons more dancers who dance 2-step in place of Foxtrot. A lot of our ballroom dances actually pick a tempo for their Foxtrots that is a little fast for an actual smooth Foxtrot and a little slow for a 2-step, but it ends up being perfect for a social mixed Foxtrot/2-step.

They do kind of the same thing with picking fast waltz music that allows the ballroom trained to do VW and the CW trained to do country waltz to the same songs.

Just a couple idea to add otherwise it looks good.

[Robin12]

Robin:



I'm not sure what you mean by "box step." Perhaps its a regional thing.

It's a simple dance: basically a slow waltz in 4/4.





I know what bossa nova music is and I don't know a dance by that name (it probably exists, but I don't happen to know it) but I believe rumbas can be danced to most bossa nova tunes.

Possibly, but it would be a little fast. Perhaps one can also cha-cha to it.



Maybe one more tango. If you play the first one and don't get many dancers, you can drop the third, but the third would be good if tango turns out to be popular on a given night.

I was thinking the same thing, but trying to find a good tango that fit's the band's sound difficult. I tried Scott Joplin's 'Solace' a few times, but it kept losing it's delicate beauty.


I'd love to hear your group! Maybe you'll make a few mp3 excepts sometime.


-IJ

And I'm looking forward to posting it. We have a few tricks, like 'The Beautiful Ohio Waltz," "The Beatles Swing," and "The Blue Danube Cha-Cha."

[Indiana_Jay]

... trying to find a good tango that fit's the band's sound difficult. I tried Scott Joplin's 'Solace' a few times, but it kept losing it's delicate beauty.

What tango tunes do you have so far?

And I'm looking forward to posting it. We have a few tricks, like 'The Beautiful Ohio Waltz," "The Beatles Swing," and "The Blue Danube Cha-Cha."

What part of the world are you in? Maybe some of us can hear you live some time.

[tsb]

besides tempo, did anyone mention duration? 3-4 minutes per song is ideal IMO, though with some crowds, shorter songs might be appreciated - it would allow more dances with different partners. i have seen this more in the swing world though - some follows would rather dance two short dances in a row with a lead they enjoy dancing with and avoid the possibility of dancing a longer dance with a lead who is... less enjoyable(?) - and they will avoid bands who have a reputation for playing songs of lengthier duration.

also, assuming you are playing 2-3 sets; i would suggest cutting a CD or two with assorted standards to play during the breaks, monitored by the guy at the sound board (i assume you'll be miked & mixed for balance?)

vocalist? if so, you'll need to make sure to remind them not to take many liberties with the tempo.

[Joe]

What will you do during breaks?

[Easy]

Wish you lived in Naples in case you need a male vocalist :(

[Robin12]

What tango tunes do you have so far?


"Blue Tango" & "Hernando's Hidaway"


What part of the world are you in? Maybe some of us can hear you live some time.

Southwest Ohio. The dance studio owners in town that I've talked to seem excited by the project, but right now we're still rehearsing and trying to get our promo package together.

[Robin12]

besides tempo, did anyone mention duration? 3-4 minutes per song is ideal.

Yes, most of our songs are of that duration.

also, assuming you are playing 2-3 sets; i would suggest cutting a CD or two with assorted standards to play during the breaks, monitored by the guy at the sound board (i assume you'll be miked & mixed for balance?)

vocalist? if so, you'll need to make sure to remind them not to take many liberties with the tempo.

Actually, most of us will be playing without amps, and there's no vocalist at this time.

[Robin12]

What will you do during breaks?

The plan was to just give folks a chance to converse, socialize, and partake of food and drink*. Why, is that wrong?

*I wonder why I can't write *******ments here?

[Joe]

Well, some people might actually be there to dance...I'd play some recorded music in between sets.

(The website censors the word "r e f r e s h" due to some security issue.)

[Chris Stratton]

Well, some people might actually be there to dance...I'd play some recorded music in between sets.

At a dance venue, it may be better that the venue provide between-sets recorded music, because they (should) know what their participants want.

For the band, watching what happens at this point is key. If people dance less during the recorded music, your performance was probably good. If they dance more during the recorded music than they did to the live, then you've played a concert rather than a dance. Nothing wrong with concert performances of course, it's just that they are different than dances.

[Robin12]

If people dance less during the recorded music, your performance was probably good. If they dance more during the recorded music...then you've played a concert.

Then I'll have to make sure the recorded music is played softly. ;)

[waltzguy]

Also, it makes sense to end the evening with a (slow) waltz.

There's an old thread on the final dance on DF. I recall a (slow) waltz was a popular choice.

[Robin12]

Also, it makes sense to end the evening with a (slow) waltz.

:cool: Yes, I found a lovely waltz that seems perfect for ending an evening: "Via con Dios."

Still trying to find a good opening theme song, though. I wanted to use a swing version of "The Joint is Jumpin' ", but the band is finding it a difficult chart to play right off the bat. Right now we're using "Rock around the clock," but would like to find a good swing song that really says dancing.

[Joe]

"Boogie Woogie Bugle Boy of Company B?"

"Choo Choo Ch'Boogie?"

"It Don't Mean A Thing?"