Ultimate Partnering

[pygmalion]

What exactly does it mean to lead and follow in social dance? Does the leader dictate and initiate movement? what is the role of the follower?

Here's an interesting article that puts a slightly different spin on the subject. What do you think about this view?

http://dance.stanford.edu/syllabi/partnering.htm

[Adwiz]

Richard makes some good points in the article. I tend to agree with him. It isn't following as much as interpreting what the leader wants. That's a subtle distinction, but a worthy one.

Still, the terms are with us and for what it's worth, I think they do convey well enough the roles.

As a leader, I find this to be the most difficult part of partner dancing. When I dance with strangers, I'm always troubled when they don't "catch" the lead I'm giving them, tending to blame myself for not leading well enough. But in retrospect, there are also other reasons why they didn't interpret properly, so it probably isn't always my fault.

Some women seem to go into automatic mode. You lead a fan and they assume it will turn into a Hockey Stick (maybe because that's what they were taught or because their normal partner always does this instead of an Alemana). No matter how much you "stir the pot" there they are in Hockey Stick position two feet away from you. In cases like that I know it wasn't me.

I find it much more difficult to lead in the Standard dances, especially Waltz and Quickstep. So many of the steps involve such subtle leads that I often don't give a clear enough indication of what I intend to do. But even here there are many cases where women work too hard to think about what is coming next instead of just relaxing and letting it happen.

I don't think many women understand all the challenges that men have as leaders. We have to think of the next two or three moves, which are often determined by where other dancers are positioned and what they are likely to do next, affecting the space we have available. We have to protect our lady from problems on the floor, like someone's elbow or heel. Our role is to present her and let her look sexy and smooth and perfect, so when she does misunderstand a lead, we have to make it look like we planned it that way and quickly find another ending to what we are now doing, all the time checking for available space. And all of that happens while we are also thinking of our own footwork and body shaping technique.

So I find it somewhat amusing that some women don't want to "give in" to the idea of just relaxing and letting the man take control of all that stuff, giving themselves up to just looking sexy and presenting themselves. In our modern culture, there is more of an acceptance that women can be in control just as much as men, which is fine. But on the dance floor, the rules may seem a little old fashioned, but when both parties accept them as what they are, everything just works. I think it adds to the sex appeal of dance, but maybe I'm just old fashioned. What do you think?

[Kitty]

So I find it somewhat amusing that some women don't want to "give in" to the idea of just relaxing and letting the man take control of all that stuff, giving themselves up to just looking sexy and presenting themselves.

why do you think they don't want?
try it for once and you'll find out that no matter how hard you try to relax it is sometimes very difficult not to anticipate. couple of my friends - guys, who were good experienced dancers - tried following (for the experience). Guys who lead them said that most of following guys were anticipating all the time. With only a few exceptions, guys (who themselves know how important it is for a follower not to anticipate) were the worst followers ever.
Just try it. And don't say afterwards that women just "don't want" to follow.

In our modern culture, there is more of an acceptance that women can be in control just as much as men, which is fine. But on the dance floor, the rules may seem a little old fashioned, but when both parties accept them as what they are, everything just works. I think it adds to the sex appeal of dance, but maybe I'm just old fashioned. What do you think?

If both people lead - there isn't any order, you will not go anywhere. Either one person leads, or they alternate. And it is easier when the follower is smaller than the leader. So that's why men lead and women follow, and not because men are simply in charge, or because it is sexy when males dominate. - that's my opinion.

I don't think many women understand all the challenges that men have as leaders.
Why do you think that?

[Sagitta]

I like this article...

In terms of dance roles it depends on what one means by lead and follow. What I got from Richard's article is that it is not about one person being submissive and the other controlling, but rather a mutually dependant relationship, where both parties to the relationship have agreed what their roles should be. That's the way all successful relationships work. :)

[Adwiz]

why do you think they don't want?... Just try it. And don't say afterwards that women just "don't want" to follow.

You seem a bit touchy about this. I certainly wasn't trying to offend. Several women have told me as much, that they find it hard to just let go and follow instead of being in control of what comes next. I didn't say this is the case with all women. Just some.

[pygmalion]

Hmm. That's interesting. The way I read the article, what the author is suggesting is that, once the lead give signals pointing to a certain pattern, the follow is in control of what happens next. She may not initiate the patterns, but she is in control of her own movement through space. So there is a balanced partnership, with shared control. Or am I misinterpreting what was said?

[Adwiz]

I think she is in control of how she does her step. In my opinion it would be boring if she had to do her step exactly a certain way. Just like you say, she can control her body's movement through space as long as her end point is legitimate: something that allows the man to carry on from there.

What I was referring to is more of the aspect of women who want to have more control than this. They want to control what the next step is as well, or to have the man respond to their movement on the fly rather than have him call the shots as to what the steps will be. Only some women seem to have this view, but it does exist.

I guess in Salsa there is more freedom for this, and it could be quite enjoyable in some situations. But it doesn't belong in ballroom, IMHO.

[tsb]

So I find it somewhat amusing that some women don't want to "give in" to the idea of just relaxing and letting the man take control of all that stuff, giving themselves up to just looking sexy and presenting themselves.

why do you think they don't want?
try it for once and you'll find out that no matter how hard you try to relax it is sometimes very difficult not to anticipate. couple of my friends - guys, who were good experienced dancers - tried following (for the experience). Guys who lead them said that most of following guys were anticipating all the time. With only a few exceptions, guys (who themselves know how important it is for a follower not to anticipate) were the worst followers ever. Just try it. And don't say afterwards that women just "don't want" to follow.

following is a skill, and the effort it takes to master that skill should not be underestimated. having said that, i do follow from time to time, and for me, the greatest difficulty is unlearning muscle memory in terms of starting with the other foot. once my footwork is off, forget it! but if i try to dances where i'm already comfortable with the footwork, i find following to be much less demanding than leading; asides from the tasks that are generally associated with leading, leaders also have to respond and adapt to how the follower interpreted the lead, and basically follow the follower and THEN decide what to lead next.

[tsb]

Hmm. That's interesting. The way I read the article, what the author is suggesting is that, once the lead give signals pointing to a certain pattern, the follow is in control of what happens next. She may not initiate the patterns, but she is in control of her own movement through space. So there is a balanced partnership, with shared control. Or am I misinterpreting what was said?

no, i don't think so; i've taken classes with richard powers and danced with a lot of stanford students. most of the training i've had as a lead has been geared towards leading my partner through specific footwork so that i have a pretty good idea of where she'll end up at the end of the figure. while at camp at stanford i was able to lead a lot of partners through unfamiliar moves and have them execute them smoothly (and hear them express surprise that they could do these moves they'd never seen befoer), this concept was completely unfamliar to the leaders who've taken classes exclusively with richard; when i tried to explain the lead for new moves and getting to the part of prepping their partners for pivots or setting the direction for a series of chaine turns i got a lot of blank stares.

i think this is a reflection of the atmosphere at stanford, where the coeds tend to be (besides quite intelligent) pretty independent & likely to take the initiative in many life situations.

i have personally heard richard to go as far as to suggest that if a leader chooses to lead a certain move or try to set a direction and the followers respond with something different, the odds were that the leader made a bad choice. while hearing that stated baldly tends to make me itch a lot, i don't think richard advocates followers backleading or hijacking the lead ad infinitum, but more in certain contexts where the follower who sees someone in the leader's blind spot that is threatening to cause a violent collision can in an act of self preservation choose to move in a different direction. more subtle in this is the idea that the follower can influence a leader's floorcraft in a good way by taking their momentum in a direction towards the optimum direction for the next figure, with the hope that the leader is one who does his best to be aware of that momentum and factor that into the decision making process in terms of the next move/direction to choose.

[Genesius Redux]

I thought the article was pretty good--I know a lot of women who don't dance and who bristle at the terms "lead" and "follow." I've sometimes heard the word "indicate."

I like "interpret" for "follow," because it actually does say something about what the girl is doing. Yes, we guys have a lot on our minds when trying to lead--but following is an underappreciated skill as well. The poor ladies often have to make rational sense of the gobbledygook we give them, and especially when we sometimes present mixed signals or--I'm particularly bad about this--I'll *change my mind* after starting to indicate a pattern. One of the things that continually amazes me about a really responsive partner is the way she reads my mind--I'll be thinking about something, and she'll start to do it. I've been asked to be the girl every now and then and boy, it's hard. I'm a lousy girl.

But yes, I agree with what's been said--interpret doesn't mean a partner has freedom to choose multiple paths. That's where the subtlety of the lead or indication comes in--so many patterns start in the same way, but subtle indications suggest the particular direction. When my partner doesn't follow what I *think* I've indicated, I generally ask myself what I need to do to make that direction a little more clear.

At the same time, I do think my partner needs to take some responsibility for her own movement. UAT in Cha Cha, for example, my left hand goes up and it stays there so my partner can use it to turn herself. Then if I want to do a double turn, I indicate with a slight motion of my hand near the end of the first turn. If I give her that in-connection at the outset, I shouldn't have to stir the pot.

The problem with the terms "lead" and "follow," beyond the implicit social hierarchy they convey, is also that they seem to be slow, as if one thing happens first, and then the partner responds. Ideally, I think, what feels and looks good in a partnership is a fluid, simultaneous movement.

One final note--while I do lead, meaning that it's my job on the floor to lay out the patterns and do the driving as it were, it's also my responsibility to show my partner a good time. Even if you don't know someone that well, you can usually figure out what they like to do pretty quickly, when you're paying attention. A good lead gives his partner access to the patterns she likes to perform. Someone who follows well makes poetry out of the sometimes inchoate mess of signals we give her while trying to avoid train wrecks on a crowded floor.

Cheers,

Genesius

[tsb]

So I find it somewhat amusing that some women don't want to "give in" to the idea of just relaxing and letting the man take control of all that stuff, giving themselves up to just looking sexy and presenting themselves. In our modern culture, there is more of an acceptance that women can be in control just as much as men, which is fine. But on the dance floor, the rules may seem a little old fashioned, but when both parties accept them as what they are, everything just works. I think it adds to the sex appeal of dance, but maybe I'm just old fashioned. What do you think?

i've heard richard lecture about this; apparently one of his students went as far as to write an essay about a rhapsodic experience she had during a dance class. for him it was just another dance, but for her the stars basically aligned themselves as she gave herself to his lead. (i think it was an exercise where she had to close her eyes, but i'm not sure.) afterwards, she tried to tell him how wonderful that dance was for her and his response was something like:

"oh. um...., that's nice."

[Carylin]

To take some of the sex differenciation out of dance, the club I'm in refers to leaders as leaders and follows as follows. There is no guys/gals, men/women. Either sex can dance either part. I don't take offense at the terms "lead" and "follow" because they aren't meant to be sex discriminitory. I do take offense that the sexy part of ballroom is the woman giving herself over the the powers of the man. The sexy part is the give and take between lead and follow. And it's all about give and take.

CAB

[KevinL]

It used to be Mens part and Womans part.

It has slowly become Leaders and Followers.

I've heard it suggested that the next change will be to Suggester and Interpreter.

I try to use Lead and Follow because there are often women doing both roles, and occassionally there are men doing both roles. Lead and Follow avoids gender issues, but still leaves social hierarchy. Not perfect, but acceptable to me.

Kevin

[D-spot]

New to the board here, so sorry for bringing to the fore an older topic.

I use the terms passive following and active following.
I teach it by getting the man/leader to place his hands on the ladies shoulders and then leading as normal (easy steps, as this is an early lesson).
Then I get the lady/follower to place her hands on the mans shoulders and getting her to follow as the man repeats easy steps (all freestyle). Sole contact in both cases of course. Remove as many variables as possible for the lesson to be learnt (even if not immediately functional)
I describe it as being a transmitter and a receiver. To 'communicate' then both parts need to be functioning.
Good exerciseto be reveresed as well. Whoever is going forward provides the power and acts as a leader in some ways, hence the man also needs to learn how to follow, only way they can stay together in standard.
I have several lessons in which to indicate and practice the different aspects of lead and follow, this being the first one.

D-spot
(cos so many people make the typo of 'dance -dacne).

[danceguy]

Carylin and D-Spot - Welcome to Dance Forums - Nice to have you aboard! :P :D

Sincerely,

ScorpionGuy

[pygmalion]

Yes. Welcome to you both. :D

[DancePoet]

I hope to find someone willing to reverse roles with me and take some lessons this way. Probably will help with my usual role.

An aside, while learning bronze level steps, I have often seen the follower moving first during the dance. (The leader then becomes the follower! Oh my!) Obviously not recommended, because if it's not in time to the music then it's not very nice to look at nor feel.

Encouraging dance as a partnership where communication is a central skill to excellence is very important.