small community issues

[spectator]

So I've heard on the grapevine that a small tango community (not in london so I don't know the ins and outs hence I won't name it or go into too much detail) has been having a big email fest over things that seem to have been brewing for a while.
The main issues raised were:

It is unfair that the 'good' leaders only dance with young/pretty/good women.
Young/pretty/good women hog all the best leaders
They should introduce tandas/cortinas to prevent 'hogging' of decent partners
men should never ever turn down an invitation to dance
men and women should be free to dance with who they want and not to dance with who they don't want.
There are too many women
there are not enough good leaders
leaders don't have any incentive to improve because the women are all so desperate to dance that they'll dance with any one no matter how awful and painful they are to dance with.

My answer to this when I was moaned to at length by someone who recieved the million emails was:
Why don't the women just learn to lead?

has anyone else encountered these types of problems in their community?
If so what was done about it?
Did things change?
Are issues above that much of a problem?
Should we ban all young/pretty/good female dancers from milongas?

Am very intertested to hear what people think.

[Sagitta]

Tandas and cortinas are pretty common in most milongas that I have been to. And being "bitchy" does not make you appealing to those whom you want to dance with. In any dance scene you will see that the prettier/younger ones get asked to dance more than the older ones. The tango scene may be a little harder as many places have the rule of ladies not asking gents to dance...but I often say that what you get out of a dance is what you make of it and it often is true.

[nucat78]

You'd think that a situation like that would self-destruct or boil down to "great" leaders and young, thin, pretty women which would be analogous to inbreeding and the thing would die.

Now I'm all in favor of only allowing beautiful young women to attend but as I'm far from a great lead, I'd expect allowances to be made for newby chuckleheads like me.

[bafonso]

You'd think that a situation like that would self-destruct or boil down to "great" leaders and young, thin, pretty women which would be analogous to inbreeding and the thing would die.

Now I'm all in favor of only allowing beautiful young women to attend but as I'm far from a great lead, I'd expect allowances to be made for newby chuckleheads like me.

They're desperate. They will take anyone! Where is this place exactly? :-)

Followers are sometimes used to having it the easy way and don't put enough effort on improving their follower skills. I wouldn't worry too much about the situation. You just need to get your game better. Any good leader will enjoy dancing more with a great follower than with a pretty face. Otherwise, they're not good leaders, so your whole problem is non-existing. ;-)

At any rate, the ladies should just learn to lead. Everyone will improve and everyone gets to dance.

[kieronneedscake]

I think a lot of these perceptions might be somewhat illusory.

"It is unfair that the 'good' leaders only dance with young/pretty/good women."

It is unfair that sexual predators get all the girls rather than the guys who will not use and abuse them. Life is full of imbalances driven by looks and charm, and warped perceptions tainted with jealousy. The milonga reflects this too. We're all competing whether we like it or not. The solution is to compete on our own terms.

Should the few better dancers all choose to sacrifice what I will call "artistic and emotional" fulfillment and forego dancing with each other because everyone else feels left out? I personally find that my musical soul is crushed when wonderful tunes and possibilities are reduced to an exercise in muscular tension and for want of better words, damage limitation. There are no absolutes here, because some people are a delight to dance for reasons that go beyond skill or physical beauty. I am not a fan of "partner hogging" either, but you can't make people be generous if they don't feel it. You can only encourage it, by for example playing tandas and by being generous yourself. I like tandas.

If you legislate a leisure activity too heavily, you start to take away the things that make it an appealing hobby, by for example denying your better dancers the very thing that fulfills them - dancing with their favourites. My local school has a "Nobody can say no to an invitation" policy, and there are no gender rules either, but that still hasn't stopped these sorts of attitudes, or people from disobeying the rules.

"Why don't the women just learn to lead?"

Why not indeed? Sadly, the most proactive women are quite often the best dancers, who have no shortage of partners in the first place. A friend of mine has had to deal with more than a couple of suggestions that she might prefer female company. What a bunch of homophobes we all are!

I think the major problem here is lack of will to do something about the situation. It's much easier to whinge and be put upon than it is to take action. You can't shortcut the long hard road to tango heaven, you can only avoid some of the traffic jams, and enjoy some heavenly stops along the way.

The attitude that leads to this big e-mail barny is not equality and justice. What your avaricious self-described "average" woman here is saying is "I deserve the attentions of the good leaders too", but what does she offer in return? She declares all the other men are inadequate, thus proving that she too has standards and a streak of elitism. She wants the best, but doesn't want to work for it. It is hypocrisy.

I would do the following under these imagined circumstances (unproven solutions, but hey).

Get out recruiting more men. That means publicity and community events. Most people in the UK think tango is that strutty ballroom thing, and most guys would rather die than wear sequins.

Tandas + Cortinas. They're nice, they give structure and differentiation to the musical course of the evening. No need to enforce partner changing, as that might kill some passion before it even starts.

Take action to improve the collective standard of dance. That means spending a bit more money, but mostly effort on really doing something to improve rather than attempting to learn passively. With a bit of collective focus, the community can get more skilled dancers in circulation and share the benefits, rather than hanging onto the few good ones like desperate groupies.

[Dave Bailey]

The main issues raised were:

It is unfair that the 'good' leaders only dance with young/pretty/good women.
Young/pretty/good women hog all the best leaders
Yep. Happens everywhere. It's called "life". Life isn't fair. There are some similarities for men, but I appreciate it's not so extreme.

My solution is : you're not going to get younger, you're not likely to get any prettier - but you can get good. So get good.

They should introduce tandas/cortinas to prevent 'hogging' of decent partners
How's that again? Why would that make any difference? :confused:

men should never ever turn down an invitation to dance
My view is more nuanced - people should never ever turn down an invitation to dance, unless they have a good reason (pee break / change of clothes / etc. - and then an attempted follow-up is polite), or unless their partner is dangerous, pervy or smelly.

Those caveats are important.

men and women should be free to dance with who they want and not to dance with who they don't want.
Again, I'm more nuanced - everyone should be free to ask everyone. Refusals - see above.

There are too many women
there are not enough good leaders
Again, that's true in every partner dance scene in the UK.

leaders don't have any incentive to improve because the women are all so desperate to dance that they'll dance with any one no matter how awful and painful they are to dance with.
Ooooh, sounds good - PM me the location? :D

My answer to this when I was moaned to at length by someone who recieved the million emails was:
Why don't the women just learn to lead?
My answer would be more - learn to be a superb follower, you'll be fighting men off with a stick.

[Angel HI]

Kieron's post is a good one. I'd like to add...

It is unfair that the 'good' leaders only dance with young/pretty/good women.

A character and social problem, and perhaps a human problem. You are right to find it offensive, or at the least, rude.

Young/pretty/good women hog all the best leaders

Rudeness has no gender, I guess.

They should introduce tandas/cortinas to prevent 'hogging' of decent partners

Though I understand what you are posting, this will not help. The offender/s will simply go to other favored partners. I am wondering what type of milonga is being sponsored that doesnpt have a tanda/cortina system in place, already?

leaders don't have any incentive to improve because the women are all so desperate to dance that they'll dance with any one no matter how awful and painful they are to dance with.

This, IMO, is the most profound part of the post. I agree 200%. This is indeed a problem. I am not suggesting that a woman nag and coach a partner to death at a milonga. For this, she will certainly become one of those referred to in paragraphs above. However, I do believe that she need not ever say anything. The right time/place, and perhaps accompaniment, would be well deserved and probably well received in the long run.

has anyone else encountered these types of problems in their community?

Always. As another poster put it...it's life.

[Heather2007]

Crikey...all the do's and don'ts - next there'll be CCTV cameras installed at every milonga to ensure that said rules are being followed, if only to continue the Big Brother Surveillance "1984" Society that Briitain is fast coming. There are some men who will always dance with followers of - what they consider - high standard and vice versa. There are some men who prefer the pretty frock, pretty faces: the Babes. Likewise, there are the older women who prefer the Babe Boys. Women outnumber men in the world so little wonder that often times they outnumber them in a class/milonga. Much of what is occurring in a milonga is handbag mirror of what is happening in the outside world. People have their likes and dislikes and we cannot, nay should not, force them to be otherwise. Matters not that we are anti their outlook. That's life. That's tango. I learned to lead because I was fed up with the countless guys with whom I danced that hadn't a clue about rhythm, leading me on the beat. So when I hear a piece of good music to which I want to enjoy dancing to, I grab a gal rather than wait for a guy. If some choose not to learn to lead, that's their choice, prerogative etc. As for the man lacking the incentive to improve due to there being so many women desperate to dance, I disagree. Man has an Ego and Man will always strive to improve their game in no matter what field of activity. That said, what I may view as a bad dancer may be viewed by another as good. The bad dancer thinks he's the dog's bollocks. I think he's crap. There are many followers who I see and think "ooo - bad posture", "no grace", "zero-sensuality" but hey, they're on their feet dancing all night and so doesn't matter what I think. Horses for courses. It's what makes AT different. The variety. The differing standards. The pretty mini-dresses. The pretty faces. The plain faces. The hurdles. The flats. The pigging hard challenge of it all. That's what makes AT so hard, yet so exciting. Let's not force it to change. The longer you're in it, the easier it gets. Believe me.

[Joe]

Tandas and cortinas won't do squat if they're trying solve the good men + pretty women issue. The good men will dance the tanda with one pretty woman, then swap to another one.

[DancePoet]

So I've heard on the grapevine that a small tango community (not in london so I don't know the ins and outs hence I won't name it or go into too much detail) has been having a big email fest over things that seem to have been brewing for a while.
The main issues raised were:

It is unfair that the 'good' leaders only dance with young/pretty/good women.
Young/pretty/good women hog all the best leaders
They should introduce tandas/cortinas to prevent 'hogging' of decent partners
men should never ever turn down an invitation to dance
men and women should be free to dance with who they want and not to dance with who they don't want.
There are too many women
there are not enough good leaders
leaders don't have any incentive to improve because the women are all so desperate to dance that they'll dance with any one no matter how awful and painful they are to dance with.

My answer to this when I was moaned to at length by someone who recieved the million emails was:
Why don't the women just learn to lead?

has anyone else encountered these types of problems in their community?
If so what was done about it?
Did things change?
Are issues above that much of a problem?
Should we ban all young/pretty/good female dancers from milongas?

Am very intertested to hear what people think.
Hmmm ... plenty of topics here, some have likely been covered somewhere on this forum, yet regarding these as being issues in a small community of AT dancers, not easy.

:arrow: Perhaps the real issue is that the community is small? ;)

There likely needs to be an effort made to grow the number and skill of dancers. Offering complimentary lessons at the beginning of milongas could help. Working co-operatively with a dance studio that has AT lessons being taught, and setting up a milonga on location to encourage newer folks. Also, having at least some experienced dancers understand there is a need to grow the number of dancers, and that this takes an investment of time and effort, could help. These kinds of things set the foundation for resolving some of this.

[DancePoet]

At any rate, the ladies should just learn to lead. Everyone will improve and everyone gets to dance.
I'm not sure this will really improve the situation that much. I'm not sure ladies need to be required to lead anymore than men need to be required to follow. Having a knowledge of both could be helpful from a skill perspective and maybe even improve one's understanding of dance, yet I find it hard to believe that ladies leading is the cure for such an environment as the original poster describes.

[DancePoet]

I think a lot of these perceptions might be somewhat illusory.

"It is unfair that the 'good' leaders only dance with young/pretty/good women."

It is unfair that sexual predators get all the girls rather than the guys who will not use and abuse them. Life is full of imbalances driven by looks and charm, and warped perceptions tainted with jealousy. The milonga reflects this too. We're all competing whether we like it or not. The solution is to compete on our own terms.

Should the few better dancers all choose to sacrifice what I will call "artistic and emotional" fulfillment and forego dancing with each other because everyone else feels left out? I personally find that my musical soul is crushed when wonderful tunes and possibilities are reduced to an exercise in muscular tension and for want of better words, damage limitation. There are no absolutes here, because some people are a delight to dance for reasons that go beyond skill or physical beauty. I am not a fan of "partner hogging" either, but you can't make people be generous if they don't feel it. You can only encourage it, by for example playing tandas and by being generous yourself. I like tandas.I find that at milongas in small communities of AT dancers, an experienced dancer will only find quality tango that meets their version of joy with those who show up to provide it. Sometimes this will cause certain pairings to happen more than others, which seems natural. Yet if one is hoping to have more joy that measures up to their standard of such, in a small community this could require a long term commitment of helping to grow the skills and size of the community.

If you legislate a leisure activity too heavily, you start to take away the things that make it an appealing hobby, by for example denying your better dancers the very thing that fulfills them - dancing with their favourites. My local school has a "Nobody can say no to an invitation" policy, and there are no gender rules either, but that still hasn't stopped these sorts of attitudes, or people from disobeying the rules.
True, instead education could help, although not entirely improve the situation. There will always be somebody who is greedy in the short run, and ignores the longer term health of the community.

"Why don't the women just learn to lead?"

Why not indeed? Sadly, the most proactive women are quite often the best dancers, who have no shortage of partners in the first place. A friend of mine has had to deal with more than a couple of suggestions that she might prefer female company. What a bunch of homophobes we all are!
Ok, yet if this is a responsibility of women, then perhaps the guys have a responsibility to learn to follow?

My view is those that would like to do either is ok with me, yet forcing folks to learn doesn't seem correct nor the best way to attempt to improve the situation the original poster provides.

I think the major problem here is lack of will to do something about the situation. It's much easier to whinge and be put upon than it is to take action. You can't shortcut the long hard road to tango heaven, you can only avoid some of the traffic jams, and enjoy some heavenly stops along the way.Excellent point! :notworth:

The attitude that leads to this big e-mail barny is not equality and justice. What your avaricious self-described "average" woman here is saying is "I deserve the attentions of the good leaders too", but what does she offer in return? She declares all the other men are inadequate, thus proving that she too has standards and a streak of elitism. She wants the best, but doesn't want to work for it. It is hypocrisy.
This could be a good point.

I would do the following under these imagined circumstances (unproven solutions, but hey).

Get out recruiting more men. That means publicity and community events. Most people in the UK think tango is that strutty ballroom thing, and most guys would rather die than wear sequins.

Tandas + Cortinas. They're nice, they give structure and differentiation to the musical course of the evening. No need to enforce partner changing, as that might kill some passion before it even starts.

Take action to improve the collective standard of dance. That means spending a bit more money, but mostly effort on really doing something to improve rather than attempting to learn passively. With a bit of collective focus, the community can get more skilled dancers in circulation and share the benefits, rather than hanging onto the few good ones like desperate groupies.
Exactly, these kinds of ideas can work! :banana:

[dchester]

Should we ban all young/pretty/good female dancers from milongas?

Am very intertested to hear what people think. I think the number of men attending these milongas would rapidly decline.

:eyebrow:

[bafonso]

I'm not sure this will really improve the situation that much. I'm not sure ladies need to be required to lead anymore than men need to be required to follow. Having a knowledge of both could be helpful from a skill perspective and maybe even improve one's understanding of dance, yet I find it hard to believe that ladies leading is the cure for such an environment as the original poster describes.

Men would learn to follow if there was a huge shortage of followers. It seems to be the other way around though...

I really enjoy following and I've done so in practicas where there were no women. No big deal.

[jennyisdancing]

Get out recruiting more men. That means publicity and community events. Most people in the UK think tango is that strutty ballroom thing, and most guys would rather die than wear sequins.

Tandas + Cortinas. They're nice, they give structure and differentiation to the musical course of the evening. No need to enforce partner changing, as that might kill some passion before it even starts.

Take action to improve the collective standard of dance. That means spending a bit more money, but mostly effort on really doing something to improve rather than attempting to learn passively. With a bit of collective focus, the community can get more skilled dancers in circulation and share the benefits, rather than hanging onto the few good ones like desperate groupies.

Great suggestions -

And there's just plain old common courtesy to think about. When you refuse to circulate, or only dance with people who look a certain way or are a certain age, it's just plain rude. At the very least, it sends a bad message even if not meant that way.

The one thing I disagree with is the tandas. Yes, I know it's the traditional tango way. But it discourages circulation. Typically, there is a surplus of women so if a woman does not have a partner for a tanda, that means she has to sit out for a pretty long period of time (several songs) until the tanda is finished. That's frustrating. I like the way they do it at one of my local milongas. They don't play tandas, but a couple can informally choose for themselves to dance several songs, if they want. Or if they want to change partners after one song, that's okay too.

[nucat78]

The bad dancer thinks he's the dog's bollocks. I think he's crap.

Heather, I think I'm falling in love with you. ;)

[Heather2007]

Heather, I think I'm falling in love with you. ;)

:together: - aaaaahhh

[DancePoet]

Great suggestions -

And there's just plain old common courtesy to think about. When you refuse to circulate, or only dance with people who look a certain way or are a certain age, it's just plain rude. At the very least, it sends a bad message even if not meant that way.

The one thing I disagree with is the tandas. Yes, I know it's the traditional tango way. But it discourages circulation. Typically, there is a surplus of women so if a woman does not have a partner for a tanda, that means she has to sit out for a pretty long period of time (several songs) until the tanda is finished. That's frustrating. I like the way they do it at one of my local milongas. They don't play tandas, but a couple can informally choose for themselves to dance several songs, if they want. Or if they want to change partners after one song, that's okay too.
I'm wondering if tandas were really created for mixing up the couples :?:

I suppose tandas could encourage it, and yet those that are greedy will continue to be such at the expense of growing a small community of AT dancers.

It is my understanding that tandas are also used as a way for a couple to learn how to connect with one another over a series of songs so as to have the best dance towards the end of the tanda. Although I'm not sure if this is why the tanda concept developed :?:

I can see why a sitting out for three songs would be frustrating. At the milongas organized locally, although the songs are typically played in sets of three, everyone realizes that dancing one or two songs in a row is ok as well. Also, the sets of three songs seem to serve as a way of organizing the music which communicates to the dancers what is possible next and next. Sometimes the sets of three can also provide a measurement for to sit out and socialize for a bit while resting.

[Dave Bailey]

It is my understanding that tandas are also used as a way for a couple to learn how to connect with one another over a series of songs so as to have the best dance towards the end of the tanda.
I assume that also - that they were created to allow couples to develop a connection without rushing into things - which takes time.

But, obviously, the more time you spend with one partner, the less time you spend flitting around, mixing, mingling and helping to create a good social atmosphere. Life's a compromise.

[Angel HI]

As for the man lacking the incentive to improve due to there being so many women desperate to dance, I disagree. Man has an Ego and Man will always strive to improve their game....

The bad dancer thinks he's the dog's bollocks. I think he's crap.

You disagreed, yet acquiesced at the same time. The bad dancers do not perceive of themselves as bad, and when many...not all...women tell them how good they are, no, they do not improve. Would for a dime for every time a woman has come to me complaining about a guy's dancing. my response is always the same, "Tell them...not me". Their reply is also always the same, "Oh no, he'll never ask me to dance again, and men are at a premium as it is".

[Light Sleeper]

Would for a dime for every time a woman has come to me complaining about a guy's dancing. my response is always the same, "Tell them...not me". Their reply is also always the same, "Oh no, he'll never ask me to dance again, and men are at a premium as it is".

But that requires a great deal of sensitivity - presumably someone would most likely get very offended by being told about their shortcomings when they're just dancing socially?

[The Bear]

As for the man lacking the incentive to improve due to there being so many women desperate to dance, I disagree. Man has an Ego and Man will always strive to improve their game in no matter what field of activity.Sometimes true, sometimes not. It could also be said that Man is Lazy and will do as little as possible to achieve the desired result. Reality check - not all men are the same. And in fact even the same man isn't always the same about everything.

... The pretty mini-dresses... I've been hanging out at the wrong places!

[nucat78]

But that requires a great deal of sensitivity - presumably someone would most likely get very offended by being told about their shortcomings when they're just dancing socially?

Depends on the wording and delivery. And with whom you're dancing. E.g. if a teacher or somebody who I know is quite experienced tells me I'm doing something wrong, I listen. If a random follow were to say something, I might be inclined to put her on the do-not-dance-with list; maybe she's wrong, maybe she's snooty, who knows?

[Heather2007]

You disagreed, yet acquiesced at the same time. The bad dancers do not perceive of themselves as bad, and when many...not all...women tell them how good they are, no, they do not improve. Would for a dime for every time a woman has come to me complaining about a guy's dancing. my response is always the same, "Tell them...not me". Their reply is also always the same, "Oh no, he'll never ask me to dance again, and men are at a premium as it is".

"Dog's Bollocks" roughly translates as "Bees Knees" - or more easily - "quite good". So no contradiction at play here but merely explaining the difference between one's meat and another's poisen. And you say, The bad dancers do not perceive of themselves as bad. I disagree. I have spoken to many a lead (sorry guys, to date no woman) who have shyly admitted to being "bad" or "not good" or "rubbish" - even some on this site. And as for improvement - who is to say that they aren't already at a level where they perceive themselves as having improved. May not be to my liking or to your agreement but are not measuring their ability to, say, the dancer with whom danced just before? And: Tell them...not me". Disagree. There are already enough ill-mannered people in the milonga, why add to it. Followers: Just smile sweetly, say thank you and take your leave. Also: when a following lodges a complaint my way about a particular leader, I tend to focus on her when she nexts dances before I then watch him. You know, just in case the Trademan is resorting to blaming his tools rather himself. If you see what I mean.

[Steve Pastor]

I've stayed out of this so far, but my initial thought when this thread was started was that large communities have the same issues as small communitites, but they are much more apparent in small communities.

I just read this on another site, and I find it to be very true. "In time you will be very selective with those that you dance with because tango dancing could be a pain when danced with the wrong person."
Personally, I don't throw stones at people who only dance with one, two, or just a handful of other folks. It's their choice. I know I've become very selective myself.

I love talking about tango almost as much as I enjoy dancing it with a good partner (I get lots of reward out of helping people learn good basics, too.) So I relish the chance to discuss things with someone at a practica, or even on the sidelines at a milonga. And I enjoy the fact that I can demonstrate the things I say. One time a woman said to me, after I told her I could "show her" what I meant, that I should be able to "just lead it" and shouldn't have to show her. (bad news for all you teachers out there!) Sometimes you just can't win.

One of my former teachers, who I respect highly, once asked me why I didn't just tell women who, for instance were not collecting between their steps, that that is what they should be doing. (She was my first teacher and sees me dance often (if she happend to notice. Sheesh, she used to ask me to follow when her regular partner wasn't there to help her teach a beginner lesson) My reply to her was that I get myself into enough trouble as it is by trying to get women to correct an obvious problem.
The alternative to not bringing something up is to just not dance with that person anymore.

[dryrain]

I saw a small and unhappy dance community like that. There was also a shortage of good leaders. A lot of women wanted to dance with the few best leads and are unhappy there wasn't nearly enough of them to go around. They also made their preferences clear for other guys to see. To put it mildly the community was not very friendly to beginner leaders. It took a long time for a guy to becomes a good lead, and in the mean time he has to put up with the second class treatment. Well after being snubbed a few too many times most of them just gave up. So the women competed all the harder for the few good ones remained, and wondered why there wasn't enough guys to dance with.

[Angel HI]

"Dog's Bollocks" roughly translates as "Bees Knees" - or more easily - "quite good".
And you say, The bad dancers do not perceive of themselves as bad. I disagree. I have spoken to many a lead (sorry guys, to date no woman) who have shyly admitted to being "bad" or "not good" or "rubbish" - even some on this site.
And: Tell them...not me". Disagree. There are already enough ill-mannered people in the milonga, why add to it.

This is taking a wrong turn. Re the 1ere comment, I understood the slang completely. Re the 2e, I agree, and did not mean these persons. I am referring to the know-it-alls whom these women are complainng about. The ones whom you mentioned are trying desperately to be better. Yet, there are they who already know everything; are difficult to dance with; and, have follows comign to me. My point, re your 3e comment, simply is that these guys don't wish to listen to us. They feel that they are the dog's bollocks. I have had them say to me, "The ladies don't complain." To which I reply, "They do to me".

[MaggieB]

I have also just tried to stay out of this one, because frankly I don't think there really is an answer... so I flushed my first three replies... but here goes again...

My husband & I host a weekly social milonga for our small tango community. Of course we expect to have all the trials & tribulations of any dance group. We have found tango more challenging than our old swing community any day! Don't ask me why, it just is.

At our milongas we specifically do not have tandas to actively promote our dancers to change partners more often. We encourage everyone to seek a partner, not just leads. We encourage those that have some experience to help the new dancers & even help us out with the free beginner class when there is a gender inbalance so that they get to know and help to hone a more interactive group.

We encourage everyone to bring new people and offer a free beginner lesson to get them on the dance floor asap.

I have to say I do not encourage my husband to dance with every single lady anymore. Those of us that come with partners end up sitting more than the single ladies did because while the single leads thought to ask the single ladies too they don't think about us so much. So we are sometimes stingy with our regular partners after we think they have done their bit. After all this is my social night out too. I find that many of our wives that have experienced leads for husbands feel the same. So single ladies you have us to blame too, sorry.

But in the end... remember going to weddings to find women dancing with other women???
It has always been like that and will not be going away anytime soon. Men gravitating towards young pretty women, not going away soon... its life, we just need to realize this, realize that its magnified in a small dance community... and just live with it... and adapt to it.

[Heather2007]

I just read this on another site, and I find it to be very true. "In time you will be very selective with those that you dance with because tango dancing could be a pain when danced with the wrong person.".

Somebody told me once when I first started out - "get good, but take care not to get too good". At the time I hadn't understood what she meant but now I do. You get good, you get selective. I am no longer what I now considered myself to have been back then - a Tango Whore - (believe me, I was. Terribly so) and now adopt a healthy balance in an evening. Good dancers target me so there I am fortunate but likewise, as follower as well as lead I target the intermediates and beginners.

One of my former teachers, who I respect highly, once asked me why I didn't just tell women who, for instance were not collecting between their steps, that that is what they should be doing.
The alternative to not bringing something up is to just not dance with that person anymore.

Quite. It is better to advise as your teacher had said rather than to resort to the "don't tell me, tell them" (i.e. that they're crap dancers) advice of earlier. Dancers of all levels will always be open to advice but will, and quite rightly, slam the door hard on rudeness.

Perhaps milongas should adopt the same rule as is adopted at one milonga (my favourite) that I attend. Alan (teacher then DJ) starts the milonga with an open-armed welcome. He thanks the people already there for attendnig and asks any newcomers to raise their hands. Something akin to an AA meeting we clap the newcomer. Alan then reminds us of the free beveages and cakes in the corner and leaves us with this message "remember everybody. We're here to have fun. It's just a dance. So remember to dance with everybody, even those that you don't know...." He sets a good example by he, himself, targetting women who have been seated for too long. And people pick up on this and so it makes for a milonga where all levels are dancing with each other. Faces that I have seen from other milongas arrive and those that don't like to "share" as it were never come back, those that do, do. And so, when it comes to getting a good attitude at a milonga perhaps it is those that organise it should be setting an example :bkick:

[Heather2007]

Sometimes true, sometimes not. It could also be said that Man is Lazy and will do as little as possible to achieve the desired result. Reality check - not all men are the same. And in fact even the same man isn't always the same about everything.!

Even if Man is lazy he has still strived to be such. Laziness is a decision not a curse from birth. And so, he has no desire to improve on his game. But view more as - perhaps that may be due to the fact that as he views himself is different to how we are view him.

I've been hanging out at the wrong places!

You need to get to London. The Crypt in Farringdon on a Saturday has the shortest skirts known to Man. Yup, one sweet dear when she was being held tightly by her partner, the rim of her already shortened dress rode high over bum and nope, she wasn't wearing knickers. Needless to say she was well targetted that evening. Ha, ha, ha.

[Heather2007]

This is taking a wrong turn. Re the 1ere comment, I understood the slang completely. Re the 2e, I agree, and did not mean these persons. I am referring to the know-it-alls whom these women are complainng about. The ones whom you mentioned are trying desperately to be better. Yet, there are they who already know everything; are difficult to dance with; and, have follows comign to me. My point, re your 3e comment, simply is that these guys don't wish to listen to us. They feel that they are the dog's bollocks. I have had them say to me, "The ladies don't complain." To which I reply, "They do to me".

Ha, ha, ha - Angel I recognise the French numbering in your text. Which has reminded me about something I have to do tonight - thanks.

But back to tango. Big apols, if I crossed your telephone line with mine. But I will reiterate that it isn't nice for anyone to tell anyone how bad their dancing is. I recall some years back and a few short months into my dancing I mistakenly stumbled into a class which was way above my head. Yes, I got the impatient rolling of the eyes from almost all the guys and those that mimicked a Carl Lewis at the end of a track follower. But one (Spanish) chap, forgetting that a lot of Londoners speak another language decided to give me a huge dressing down in Italian to the Italian teacher. I just stood there as I heard myself being described as crap, not following his lead, shouldn't be in the class etc. etc. I laughted when he left. (My humour). But still it is rude and my advice would not to be "don't tell me...tell him". Only Buddhist monks and their students understand what it is to work without the Ego - the rest of us are light years behind and thus get offended, mortified as one poster said, don't go back.

I feel sorry for one such guy. He has been dancing for several years but still walks like a showhorse when leading. Most women have complained to me about him - (shamefully) described him as "hideous", "appalling" and "really bad". They don't have the guts to stab him in the chest so they do it in the back. It is far easier for themselves at least to just say no thank you.

[Heather2007]

My point, re your 3e comment, simply is that these guys don't wish to listen to us.

And this is how I have dealt with it in the past. Yep. I'm going to name and shame. Wayne comes to mind who has mastered the art of being a total wanker with the (especially) beginning ladies. I let my arms drop and replied, "okay, I'll lead, you show me as the follower what it is that I am doing wrong". Now, in the unfamiliar spot of being follower Wayne was stumped. "What, you can't follow?" I whooped. "But I thought you could" (no I didn't) " And so if you can't follow then shut the f*ck up and stop telling me what to do". Admittedly, this was a really bad session and he fully deserved by outburst but it was the memory of all the women he has reduced to tears and those he has simply p*ssed off in the past. So I was glad when he came up to me last year and asked if he could practice an advanced move with me. And yes, of course I knew he had't a clue on how to follow and yes I deliberately fluffed the moves he was just trying to lead. You can still see him in the corner of every milonga instructing somebody but he is no longer as unforgiving and gives me a wide berth whenever he sees me. If they're rude, be rude back but some friendly advice will always be welcomed.

[elisedance]

If they're rude, be rude back but some friendly advice will always be welcomed.

When people are rude they are trying to achieve something - either to get a rise out of you or to humiliate or dominate you. Reacting with rudeness may give an instant gratification but it basically justifies their initial stab - no one else knows that they started it and you are likely to not feel very good about yourself - which was, of course, their original objective.

I find it more effective - and a better way to retain my dignity - to simply smile and then ignore them. Ignored rudeness hits back at the offender.

[calandra]

I’ve thought of a number of ways to post to what I think is a very pertinent thread – from basic pleas of humanity, to why are all so many leaders such fr*aking jerks.

Having spent hundreds of £ on lessons, shoes, music, etc. boy do I feel like a big schumck every time I go to a milonga. Not being the prettiest or the ugliest or the best dancer or the worst dancer, I do seem to wear the crown for sitting out the most. I can’t go out very often, and last time, having looked forward to going to a milonga for 2 weeks, I went there, did the lesson (went well, got to know some nice leaders, so I thought) and then preceded to be passed over for the next 5 tandas. I didn’t dance once, and feeling like I distinctly did not need it, I subsequently left in near tears.

So I think next time (if there is one) I might just go up and ask one of the ‘lurkers’ who stand there scanning the room, walk past, etc. – exactly why it is that they won’t ask me.

[The Bear]

Perhaps milongas should adopt the same rule as is adopted at one milonga (my favourite) that I attend. Alan (teacher then DJ) starts the milonga with an open-armed welcome. He thanks the people already there for attendnig and asks any newcomers to raise their hands. Something akin to an AA meeting we clap the newcomer. Alan then reminds us of the free beveages and cakes in the corner and leaves us with this message "remember everybody. We're here to have fun. It's just a dance. So remember to dance with everybody, even those that you don't know...." He sets a good example by he, himself, targetting women who have been seated for too long. And people pick up on this and so it makes for a milonga where all levels are dancing with each other.I like this. Setting a good example. Nice.

A few things come to mind with regard to this thread, some of which have probably been said already so apologies if it seems like I'm plagiarising.

There's an old prayer regarding the gifts of
A. Serenity to accept that which we cannot change,
B. Courage to change that wich we can
C. Wisdom to know the difference.

As has been said, the problems of the small community are also prevalent in larger communities, and indeed in life, generally.
Accomplished dancers like to dance with other accomplished dancers. Hey, what'd be the point of learning loads of fancy stuff then not being able to dance it with anyone?
But of course, new people are the lifeblood of any scene. Without them, natural attrition means that the the scene withers and dies. So these new people need encouragement (and dances) so they stay and become part of the scene themselves.
So whilst we're selfishly dancing with all our favourites, it's also in our own interests to (selfishly) dance with beginners etc in the hope that maybe one day they'll be our favourites too. I guess we could look at it along the lines of speculation, investment and reward.

So, my solution, such as it is;
If you want to dance with someone, ask them to dance. I have very little time for people who have a chip on their shoulder because they never get asked, when they never ask anyone themselves.
When you get asked for a dance, accept - unless you have a valid reason not to. I think there can be many valid reasons, but it's polite to explain what they are. I'm not for a moment suggesting you're answerable to anyone that asks for a dance. I'm just saying that it's polite to explain a refusal. If the refusal is for reasons that may offend, ie bad smell/painful to dance with etc, then if it was me I'd definitely want to know. If for another reason, suggest you'll try to dance with 'em later/next time, and then actually follow this up.
Someone being a beginner is NOT a valid reason not to dance with them.

If there's someone you want to dance with and they don't want to dance with you because you're "not good enough" then either accept it and dismiss them accordingly, or if you still want to dance with them, work hard to improve so they will want to dance with you.

We all live in the real world. Let's deal with but if we can, let's deal with it in a positive way. If there's stuff we can change for the better, then go for it. If we can't change it, then decide whether we want to stick around or not. If not, then don't, if we do, then stick around, but let's stop moaning.

- Incidentally, it's possible I'm a bit of a fraud as I've never yet been to a milonga. I do however have years of experience dancing salsa and the issues detailed in this thread (excepting those pertaining to tandas, of course) are just as prevalent there.

[DancePoet]

Men would learn to follow if there was a huge shortage of followers. It seems to be the other way around though...

I really enjoy following and I've done so in practicas where there were no women. No big deal.
I've done some following of AT (interestingly I can't recall ever doing some following with other dance forms, yet likely it would be good to try). I will likely do some more because of the perspective it provides on dancing as a whole. However, it really isn't my preference. The SO enjoys following, and actually isn't thrilled by leading in even the slightest way.

By the way, my apology for missing your post previously.

[DancePoet]

I assume that also - that they were created to allow couples to develop a connection without rushing into things - which takes time.It could be worth me researching this. :cool:

But, obviously, the more time you spend with one partner, the less time you spend flitting around, mixing, mingling and helping to create a good social atmosphere. Life's a compromise.Very true. I'm not sure I'd be in favor of eliminating tandas because of the cultural tradition this is, and yet I do believe it is important for leads to move around to various followers while dancing in a small community of dancers. Interestingly, in a small community of dancers, if the leads move around a bit, their is likely always time to get back to a favorite follower another time before the milonga comes to an end. Life can be best when there is a balance achieved. :D

[Heather2007]

When people are rude they are trying to achieve something - either to get a rise out of you or to humiliate or dominate you. Reacting with rudeness may give an instant gratification but it basically justifies their initial stab - no one else knows that they started it and you are likely to not feel very good about yourself - which was, of course, their original objective.

I find it more effective - and a better way to retain my dignity - to simply smile and then ignore them. Ignored rudeness hits back at the offender.

You're right of course but as for not feeling good about myself after my outburst with said fellow? I felt good. It doesn't gratify me to be rude to others (which I very rarely am outside the policital or legal arena) but it gratifies me to highlight the limitation in one that is bursting with ego and is insulting to others. Many women in and out of tango are lost (some friends too) as to how to react to or challenge these types and rather than resort to being dignified they either cry or stomp off never to return.

[DancePoet]

I've stayed out of this so far, but my initial thought when this thread was started was that large communities have the same issues as small communitites, but they are much more apparent in small communities.
Good point. :cool:

I just read this on another site, and I find it to be very true. "In time you will be very selective with those that you dance with because tango dancing could be a pain when danced with the wrong person."
Personally, I don't throw stones at people who only dance with one, two, or just a handful of other folks. It's their choice. I know I've become very selective myself. ...
In the end, people are going to likely be who they want to be. Yet in a larger community it seems as if being selective could be more acceptable(?) because of the number of dancers available, and at the same time, in a larger community perhaps there isn't as much of a need to grow it, because it is larger. In a smaller community, it seems likely that growth in size and skill could best done through education, although having leads that move around could certainly help with this.

[DancePoet]

I saw a small and unhappy dance community like that. There was also a shortage of good leaders. A lot of women wanted to dance with the few best leads and are unhappy there wasn't nearly enough of them to go around. They also made their preferences clear for other guys to see. To put it mildly the community was not very friendly to beginner leaders. It took a long time for a guy to becomes a good lead, and in the mean time he has to put up with the second class treatment. Well after being snubbed a few too many times most of them just gave up. So the women competed all the harder for the few good ones remained, and wondered why there wasn't enough guys to dance with.
Interesting story. Thanks for sharing. It certainly helps if the follows are as equally patient with new leaders as leads could be with new followers.

This causes me to imagine a dance community that grows through having both leads and follows being understanding enough so that the small community grows into one where there can be many more quality dancers to dance with, and yet at the same time never stops working with the new folks on the block so that the community can continue to thrive beyond the current balance achieved. Wouldn't that be wonderful! :D

[DancePoet]

I have also just tried to stay out of this one, because frankly I don't think there really is an answer... so I flushed my first three replies... but here goes again...

My husband & I host a weekly social milonga for our small tango community. Of course we expect to have all the trials & tribulations of any dance group. We have found tango more challenging than our old swing community any day! Don't ask me why, it just is.

At our milongas we specifically do not have tandas to actively promote our dancers to change partners more often. We encourage everyone to seek a partner, not just leads. We encourage those that have some experience to help the new dancers & even help us out with the free beginner class when there is a gender inbalance so that they get to know and help to hone a more interactive group.

We encourage everyone to bring new people and offer a free beginner lesson to get them on the dance floor asap.

I have to say I do not encourage my husband to dance with every single lady anymore. Those of us that come with partners end up sitting more than the single ladies did because while the single leads thought to ask the single ladies too they don't think about us so much. So we are sometimes stingy with our regular partners after we think they have done their bit. After all this is my social night out too. I find that many of our wives that have experienced leads for husbands feel the same. So single ladies you have us to blame too, sorry.

But in the end... remember going to weddings to find women dancing with other women???
It has always been like that and will not be going away anytime soon. Men gravitating towards young pretty women, not going away soon... its life, we just need to realize this, realize that its magnified in a small dance community... and just live with it... and adapt to it.
Somehow there does seem to be slightly more of an issue with this in the AT community's. Perhaps it is because of the tandas. And if so, then it is something that will always be encountered a little bit more in AT, and particularly in the smaller settings. However, doing away with all tandas could lose abit of the AT experience. Perhaps a balance of these things would be good :?:

Hmmm ... maybe I'll try incorpating the following at one of the milongas I host some time soon. Maybe have some single songs for the first half hour, then proceed to two song tandas for the next half hour, and then provide the usual longer tandas for the remaining hours of the dance ... hmmm.

Anyway, I like the idea of both leads and follows seeking out partners. I know there will be some resistence to this, and this is somehting I encounter in ballroom as well. Also, encouraging the experienced dancers to help with the newer one's is good, but like you say, those that come as couples are often having their nightout together for the week, and therefore it could be ok for the the singles to recognize this. Having free beginner lessons prior to milongas is a smart move, and saving the more intermediate to advanced stuff for the workshop events could be best.

Thanks a bunch for sharing your views! :D

[Heather2007]

I’ve thought of a number of ways to post to what I think is a very pertinent thread – from basic pleas of humanity, to why are all so many leaders such fr*aking jerks.

Having spent hundreds of £ on lessons, shoes, music, etc. boy do I feel like a big schumck every time I go to a milonga. Not being the prettiest or the ugliest or the best dancer or the worst dancer, I do seem to wear the crown for sitting out the most. I can’t go out very often, and last time, having looked forward to going to a milonga for 2 weeks, I went there, did the lesson (went well, got to know some nice leaders, so I thought) and then preceded to be passed over for the next 5 tandas. I didn’t dance once, and feeling like I distinctly did not need it, I subsequently left in near tears.

So I think next time (if there is one) I might just go up and ask one of the ‘lurkers’ who stand there scanning the room, walk past, etc. – exactly why it is that they won’t ask me.

I feel for you. My advice, stay with it. As I said in one post the longer you go on the easier it gets. If you happen to be sitting next a guy, make conversation. Comment on on the music, the temperate, a particular dancer or teacher. Get talking and then ask if he'd like to dance. The majority of leaders do not turn down a dance. And most leads need to see a woman dance to guage her level (sad, but true) before they ask her. Also, target a female lead if you see one. Even when I've just come off the dancefloor tired and sweating and a woman comes up and asks me to lead I'll never turn down them down. (I turn down leads, but never followers). Same ruling applies to other female leads I know/know of also.

Where are you based (you used the pound note symbol) so am assuming England. If you are/or can to London on a weekend, drop me a PM and we'll hook and I'll introduce some good male leads I know.

[DancePoet]

And this is how I have dealt with it in the past. Yep. I'm going to name and shame. Wayne comes to mind who has mastered the art of being a total wanker with the (especially) beginning ladies. I let my arms drop and replied, "okay, I'll lead, you show me as the follower what it is that I am doing wrong". Now, in the unfamiliar spot of being follower Wayne was stumped. "What, you can't follow?" I whooped. "But I thought you could" (no I didn't) " And so if you can't follow then shut the f*ck up and stop telling me what to do". Admittedly, this was a really bad session and he fully deserved by outburst but it was the memory of all the women he has reduced to tears and those he has simply p*ssed off in the past. So I was glad when he came up to me last year and asked if he could practice an advanced move with me. And yes, of course I knew he had't a clue on how to follow and yes I deliberately fluffed the moves he was just trying to lead. You can still see him in the corner of every milonga instructing somebody but he is no longer as unforgiving and gives me a wide berth whenever he sees me. If they're rude, be rude back but some friendly advice will always be welcomed.
I'm disappointed that a name was named. True, it's only a first name, yet still seemingly something not quite appropriate about it for me. And I'm also disappointed with the use of langauge in the manner that has happend above. It's true that there is less of a reason to be respectful to someone who is abusing one's self, and yet there can be a way, despite the need for being creative, to side swipe such situations without using similar rudeness.

[DancePoet]

When people are rude they are trying to achieve something - either to get a rise out of you or to humiliate or dominate you. Reacting with rudeness may give an instant gratification but it basically justifies their initial stab - no one else knows that they started it and you are likely to not feel very good about yourself - which was, of course, their original objective.

I find it more effective - and a better way to retain my dignity - to simply smile and then ignore them. Ignored rudeness hits back at the offender.This could be a very good point. :cool:

[fascination]

yes...please leave names out and take it easy on the foul talk...there is a reason that we have filters...and it isn't so that folks will take creative license to get around it and still be somewhat lewd...we have minors on the forum...thanks

[DancePoet]

I’ve thought of a number of ways to post to what I think is a very pertinent thread – from basic pleas of humanity, to why are all so many leaders such fr*aking jerks.

Having spent hundreds of £ on lessons, shoes, music, etc. boy do I feel like a big schumck every time I go to a milonga. Not being the prettiest or the ugliest or the best dancer or the worst dancer, I do seem to wear the crown for sitting out the most. I can’t go out very often, and last time, having looked forward to going to a milonga for 2 weeks, I went there, did the lesson (went well, got to know some nice leaders, so I thought) and then preceded to be passed over for the next 5 tandas. I didn’t dance once, and feeling like I distinctly did not need it, I subsequently left in near tears.

So I think next time (if there is one) I might just go up and ask one of the ‘lurkers’ who stand there scanning the room, walk past, etc. – exactly why it is that they won’t ask me.
Hmmm ... not all leaders are "jerks". At the milongas I attend in my small community of AT dancers, I ask all follows at one time or another to dance. Even the ladies I struggle with. I am not rude, nor am I a "jerk".

If you attend a milonga in my area, I'd be happy to dance with you. We need followers just as much as we need leads. :D

[DancePoet]

I like this. Setting a good example. Nice.
And the example descibed is worth duplicating which I'll tryout soon at a milonga nearby. :cool:

A few things come to mind with regard to this thread, some of which have probably been said already so apologies if it seems like I'm plagiarising.

There's an old prayer regarding the gifts of
A. Serenity to accept that which we cannot change,
B. Courage to change that wich we can
C. Wisdom to know the difference.
Very nice. :notworth:

As has been said, the problems of the small community are also prevalent in larger communities, and indeed in life, generally.
Accomplished dancers like to dance with other accomplished dancers. Hey, what'd be the point of learning loads of fancy stuff then not being able to dance it with anyone?
But of course, new people are the lifeblood of any scene. Without them, natural attrition means that the the scene withers and dies. So these new people need encouragement (and dances) so they stay and become part of the scene themselves.
So whilst we're selfishly dancing with all our favourites, it's also in our own interests to (selfishly) dance with beginners etc in the hope that maybe one day they'll be our favourites too. I guess we could look at it along the lines of speculation, investment and reward.
More excellence above. :notworth:

So, my solution, such as it is;
If you want to dance with someone, ask them to dance. I have very little time for people who have a chip on their shoulder because they never get asked, when they never ask anyone themselves.
When you get asked for a dance, accept - unless you have a valid reason not to. I think there can be many valid reasons, but it's polite to explain what they are. I'm not for a moment suggesting you're answerable to anyone that asks for a dance. I'm just saying that it's polite to explain a refusal. If the refusal is for reasons that may offend, ie bad smell/painful to dance with etc, then if it was me I'd definitely want to know. If for another reason, suggest you'll try to dance with 'em later/next time, and then actually follow this up.
Someone being a beginner is NOT a valid reason not to dance with them.Someone's perfume or cologne could be a smell issue, maybe even smoking, but it could be good to handle this delicately. An explanation of the pain being caused is good. Offers to dance another time, followed up on and fulfilled, can be a good thing as well.

If there's someone you want to dance with and they don't want to dance with you because you're "not good enough" then either accept it and dismiss them accordingly, or if you still want to dance with them, work hard to improve so they will want to dance with you.

We all live in the real world. Let's deal with but if we can, let's deal with it in a positive way. If there's stuff we can change for the better, then go for it. If we can't change it, then decide whether we want to stick around or not. If not, then don't, if we do, then stick around, but let's stop moaning.

- Incidentally, it's possible I'm a bit of a fraud as I've never yet been to a milonga. I do however have years of experience dancing salsa and the issues detailed in this thread (excepting those pertaining to tandas, of course) are just as prevalent there.
Probably not a fraud ... these kinds of issues are similar in different dance circles.

[nucat78]

So whilst we're selfishly dancing with all our favourites, it's also in our own interests to (selfishly) dance with beginners etc in the hope that maybe one day they'll be our favourites too. I guess we could look at it along the lines of speculation, investment and reward.


Bravo! Very well put!

[Cortado]

A lot has been said on this thread about the characteristics of some leaders who will only dance with pretty young things when there is a surplus of followers.

Although I am a leader and not a follower, I do not personally have a problem with people with such an attitude. If they want to manhandle some new follower around the floor and give her the illusion that she can dance, good luck to them. Some of these leaders will stick like glue to the same person the whole evening.

As a leader it gives me a bigger choice of followers. The followers see the shallow side of the "good dancers" who abandon them completely for an unknown beginner. The followers have an opportunity to make an impression and earn goodwill with newer leaders.

I have also been to places where there have been more leaders than followers. I am afraid to say that the situation is similar there. Some followers will only dance with goodlooking guys even if their dancing skills and "level of social acquaintance" are lower.

Does not worry me either way, you soon get to know the people who are consistent and trustworthy whatever their level of skill, age or beauty.

[jennyisdancing]

Perhaps milongas should adopt the same rule as is adopted at one milonga (my favourite) that I attend. Alan (teacher then DJ) starts the milonga with an open-armed welcome. He thanks the people already there for attendnig and asks any newcomers to raise their hands. Something akin to an AA meeting we clap the newcomer. Alan then reminds us of the free beveages and cakes in the corner and leaves us with this message "remember everybody. We're here to have fun. It's just a dance. So remember to dance with everybody, even those that you don't know...." He sets a good example by he, himself, targetting women who have been seated for too long. And people pick up on this and so it makes for a milonga where all levels are dancing with each other. Faces that I have seen from other milongas arrive and those that don't like to "share" as it were never come back, those that do, do. And so, when it comes to getting a good attitude at a milonga perhaps it is those that organise it should be setting an example

Word!
I do think the milonga hosts really set the tone and make a big difference. My favorite local milonga is similar; the couple who host it are very friendly and welcoming, and each of them seeks out and dances with the newcomers. There are still a few cliquey folks who won't mingle but the number is small; most people follow the hosts' example. :D

[Dave Bailey]

But I will reiterate that it isn't nice for anyone to tell anyone how bad their dancing is.
Agree.

I get this occasionally from followers at Milongas. And, with the best will in the world, I can't bring myself to appreciate it much, even though I know it's usually meant as constructive feedback. Milongas are for dancing, practicas are for practicing.

I’ve thought of a number of ways to post to what I think is a very pertinent thread – from basic pleas of humanity, to why are all so many leaders such fr*aking jerks.
Possibly a little harsh...

So I think next time (if there is one) I might just go up and ask one of the ‘lurkers’ who stand there scanning the room, walk past, etc. – exactly why it is that they won’t ask me.
Well, if it's that bad, why not go crazy and, you know, ask them to dance?

[MaggieB]

I was just reading an email detailing a milonga held last weekend in a city not too awfully far from us that hosted a very well known tango teacher that week...

This teacher did not allow ladies to ask a lead to dance at the milonga. The teacher insisted that they use the Buenos Aires "look" to let the men know you wanted to dance.
Well, that raised the hairs on the back of my neck... this is 2008 right??? At our small milongas I have to remind the new ladies to not be shrinking violets and to stand or be seen where the men will realize that, YES, they DO want to dance so they think to ask them! There is no way they are going to flirt with their eyes! It might have worked at the particular milonga in question that night because I imagine it would become part of a "game" but I cannot see it succeeding for very long in any open tango community that is embracing newcomers regularly.


"Anyway, I like the idea of both leads and follows seeking out partners. I know there will be some resistence to this, and this is somehting I encounter in ballroom as well. Also, encouraging the experienced dancers to help with the newer one's is good, but like you say, those that come as couples are often having their nightout together for the week, and therefore it could be ok for the the singles to recognize this. Having free beginner lessons prior to milongas is a smart move, and saving the more intermediate to advanced stuff for the workshop events could be best.

Thanks a bunch for sharing your views!" :D

[dryrain]

I have also been to places where there have been more leaders than followers. I am afraid to say that the situation is similar there. Some followers will only dance with goodlooking guys even if their dancing skills and "level of social acquaintance" are lower.



I think most guys know women can be choosey and accept it as a fact of life. More women seem to have trouble with the fact that in this situation, guys who are thought after can be choosey too.

[Heather2007]

I was just reading ......! There is no way they are going to flirt with their eyes! It might have worked at the particular milonga in question that night because I imagine it would become part of a "game" but I cannot see it succeeding for very long in any open tango community that is embracing newcomers regularly.

I agree. One place here at 10pm the milonga is stopped for what is known as Ladies Chance. At this hour for the next two tandas it is for the ladies to ask the men to dance. And yes, even then many ladies remain seated, embarrassed or shy to a bloke to dance, never mind flirting with the eyes. :oops:

[nucat78]

I agree. One place here at 10pm the milonga is stopped for what is known as Ladies Chance. At this hour for the next two tandas it is for the ladies to ask the men to dance. And yes, even then many ladies remain seated, embarrassed or shy to a bloke to dance, never mind flirting with the eyes. :oops:

And re: the guys that aren't asked? How do they react?

[dryrain]

And re: the guys that aren't asked? How do they react?

Write on Dance Forum and complain about how unfair it is women don't ask them?

[nucat78]

Write on Dance Forum and complain about how unfair it is women don't ask them?
:cheers:

[Heather2007]

And re: the guys that aren't asked? How do they react?

Welcoming the break?

[spectator]

Cheers for all the replies it's interesting to hear people's views on this. For what it's worth I'm glad the tango scene I'm involved with doesn't seem to have those issues, or if it does people keep their complaints to themselves.

Quite a few people on the email list started suggesting that they organise a load of taxi dancers to keep the ladies happy and to encourage beginner leaders to keep coming back. Have any of you lot heard of this being tried and did it make a difference.

[bordertangoman]

maybe names should be drawn out of two hats the same way football teams are selected to play.

[Steve Pastor]

"taxi dancers to keep the ladies happy and to encourage beginner leaders to keep coming back. Have any of you lot heard of this being tried and did it make a difference."

I know of at least one town (which shall remain nameless) where the organizers adress this need by having men show up specifically to provide partners where men are in short supply. It's all done sort of "on the sly". These events have continued to be popular for several years, so I guess it must be working.
To me the term "taxi dancer" implies payment for dance, and the only place I'm sure this goes on is in Buenos Aires, based on my readings. From what I read it is a pretty common thing there.

I have thoughts about how most of us think about paying for things with money, which aren't fully formed and which I should proabably keep to myself.
You would know best whether such an idea would be accepted in your community. But maybe you don't mean "taxi dancer" in that sense.

Cruise lines have "Gentlemen Host" programs. Cruise in return for dancing with the ladies.
What can you offer these men? Free lessons? Free admission to the milonga?

One instructor here in Portland allows anyone who has taken one of his classes to take his "Tango from the Ground Up" class free of charge. Having experienced dancers who aren't total beginners in the class is (hopefully) a benefit to those who are complete beginners. But that's a suggestion for teachers, rather than organizers, I guess.

[Cortado]

One of the places I used to go to had a free Practica after the lessons and there were always loads of "experienced leaders" who would come after the class to dance with the pretty young beginners. Unfortunately they were not the type that you would like to see dancing with your sister.

[Dave Bailey]

Quite a few people on the email list started suggesting that they organise a load of taxi dancers to keep the ladies happy and to encourage beginner leaders to keep coming back. Have any of you lot heard of this being tried and did it make a difference.
Yes, Ceroc do this - they even have a manual (http://www.cerocscotland.com/taxi.pdf)- that's what I call organised :)

Taxi dancers are a great way to up retention numbers for new dancers.
I'm not aware of any other organisation using them.

Taxi-dancers have been used historically in dance halls - there's a Wikipedia description here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxi_dancer). And I love this quote:
A "taxi" is not a prostitute, and no sexual favors may be expected off the dance floor.
Makes me wonder what sexual favours may be expected on the dance floor... :)

[elisedance]

"A "taxi" is not a prostitute, and no sexual favors may be expected off the dance floor."
Makes me wonder what sexual favours may be expected on the dance floor... :)

:uplaugh:

My father used to talk about such men in dance floors - I wondered if maybe he was one himself for a while - but I had never heard the term 'Taxi dancer'. thats very usefl since the only one I had was 'gigolo' which, depending on the source, generally included favors beyond the floor, ahem, the dance floor.

However, I also see 'Taxi boy' as a male prostitute - according to Wik thats the term in Argentina http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gigolo so maybe one should use the term with some caution?

[DancePoet]

Word!
I do think the milonga hosts really set the tone and make a big difference. My favorite local milonga is similar; the couple who host it are very friendly and welcoming, and each of them seeks out and dances with the newcomers. There are still a few cliquey folks who won't mingle but the number is small; most people follow the hosts' example. :D
A milonga can be a place to dance and socialize. It's good when the host sets a positive example in both tone and actions. This can really pay off over time.

[bordertangoman]

I'd like to ba taxi: specifically the cartoon one in Roger Rabbit

[DancePoet]

I was just reading an email detailing a milonga held last weekend in a city not too awfully far from us that hosted a very well known tango teacher that week...

This teacher did not allow ladies to ask a lead to dance at the milonga. The teacher insisted that they use the Buenos Aires "look" to let the men know you wanted to dance.
Well, that raised the hairs on the back of my neck... this is 2008 right??? At our small milongas I have to remind the new ladies to not be shrinking violets and to stand or be seen where the men will realize that, YES, they DO want to dance so they think to ask them! There is no way they are going to flirt with their eyes! It might have worked at the particular milonga in question that night because I imagine it would become part of a "game" but I cannot see it succeeding for very long in any open tango community that is embracing newcomers regularly.
Didn't allow ladies to ask for dances? :shock:

The "flirt with your eyes" might work in Argentina (does anyone know if they still do that there :?: ), but not in New England. True, maybe as a one time idea for experimenting with cultural tradition sake, yet I'm wondering how this would even work. :roll:

[DancePoet]

And re: the guys that aren't asked? How do they react?
My suspicion is ... more than one way. ;)

[DancePoet]

Write on Dance Forum and complain about how unfair it is women don't ask them?
:lol:

Probably not. ;)

[DancePoet]

Welcoming the break?
That's it? :shock:

[DancePoet]

Quite a few people on the email list started suggesting that they organise a load of taxi dancers to keep the ladies happy and to encourage beginner leaders to keep coming back. Have any of you lot heard of this being tried and did it make a difference.
Kind of like what I've heard termed as "dance hosts".

It might be a good idea to have a person or two volunteer for this once in awhile. :cool:

[DancePoet]

maybe names should be drawn out of two hats the same way football teams are selected to play.
Or have folks share this roll on a rotating basis.

[DancePoet]

"taxi dancers to keep the ladies happy and to encourage beginner leaders to keep coming back. Have any of you lot heard of this being tried and did it make a difference."

I know of at least one town (which shall remain nameless) where the organizers adress this need by having men show up specifically to provide partners where men are in short supply. It's all done sort of "on the sly". These events have continued to be popular for several years, so I guess it must be working.
To me the term "taxi dancer" implies payment for dance, and the only place I'm sure this goes on is in Buenos Aires, based on my readings. From what I read it is a pretty common thing there.

I have thoughts about how most of us think about paying for things with money, which aren't fully formed and which I should proabably keep to myself.
You would know best whether such an idea would be accepted in your community. But maybe you don't mean "taxi dancer" in that sense.

Cruise lines have "Gentlemen Host" programs. Cruise in return for dancing with the ladies.
What can you offer these men? Free lessons? Free admission to the milonga?

One instructor here in Portland allows anyone who has taken one of his classes to take his "Tango from the Ground Up" class free of charge. Having experienced dancers who aren't total beginners in the class is (hopefully) a benefit to those who are complete beginners. But that's a suggestion for teachers, rather than organizers, I guess.
Hmmm ... not sure I like the idea of having ladies pay a guy for a dance.

Perhaps it could be good to give a guy free entry into the dance in return for his time as a dance host?

[bordertangoman]

Hmmm ... not sure I like the idea of having ladies pay a guy for a dance.

Perhaps it could be good to give a guy free entry into the dance in return for his time as a dance host?

Gawd the people round here are real skinflints; I got invited to DJ and still had to pay to get in!

[DancePoet]

Taxi dancers are a great way to up retention numbers for new dancers. I'm not aware of any other organisation using them.

Taxi-dancers have been used historically in dance halls - there's a Wikipedia description here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxi_dancer).
Interesting ... so it was orginally something businesses did to attract men. Why am I not surprised. :lol:

[DancePoet]

My father used to talk about such men in dance floors - I wondered if maybe he was one himself for a while - but I had never heard the term 'Taxi dancer'. thats very usefl since the only one I had was 'gigolo' which, depending on the source, generally included favors beyond the floor, ahem, the dance floor.

However, I also see 'Taxi boy' as a male prostitute - according to Wik thats the term in Argentina http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gigolo so maybe one should use the term with some caution?
Ayuh, "dance host" seems like an improvement. :cool:

[DancePoet]

I'd like to ba taxi: specifically the cartoon one in Roger Rabbit
:lol:

What an entertaining movie that was, haven't seen it in a very long time. Need to look it up sometime soon, and watch it again. :cool:

[DancePoet]

Gawd the people round here are real skinflints; I got invited to DJ and still had to pay to get in!
Sheesh. :roll: When we have a teacher help with the complimentary lesson, or a person dj, or even someone who co-ordinates the food, we let them in to the milonga for free. Seems like a no brainer to me.

[Hock Siew]

Perhaps milongas should adopt the same rule as is adopted at one milonga (my favourite) that I attend. Alan (teacher then DJ) starts the milonga with an open-armed welcome. He thanks the people already there for attendnig and asks any newcomers to raise their hands. Something akin to an AA meeting we clap the newcomer. Alan then reminds us of the free beveages and cakes in the corner and leaves us with this message "remember everybody. We're here to have fun. It's just a dance. So remember to dance with everybody, even those that you don't know...." He sets a good example by he, himself, targetting women who have been seated for too long. And people pick up on this and so it makes for a milonga where all levels are dancing with each other. Faces that I have seen from other milongas arrive and those that don't like to "share" as it were never come back, those that do, do. And so, when it comes to getting a good attitude at a milonga perhaps it is those that organise it should be setting an example :bkick:

I guess the `leader` does influence the environment (although, certainly, the dancers themselves should play a part). Here in Kuala Lumpur, our local teacher cum DJ will always walk over and introduce herself, if she sees someone new show up at the venue. She will talk to them and make them feel at home. If they haven`t already met the other dancers, she will also introduce them to us. I guess it helps that the other dancers here are friendly as well. But without her, the scene here might probably not have survived (there are very few dancers here to begin with - just enough to keep going).

[elisedance]

Gawd the people round here are real skinflints; I got invited to DJ and still had to pay to get in!

BTM, but I would just have said, no thanks and gone home. Thats just plain abusive.

[elisedance]

Ayuh, "dance host" seems like an improvement. :cool:

Dance host is probably the best term but it sounds very much like a euphomism [aside: a euphomism or an euphomism - the former seems better - where are the grammar police when you need them...]. Its a verbal quagmire. As soon as you have young men, favors and possibly payment in any phrase or word, there is an immediate mental link to sexual antics of some sort.

[Joe]

Euphemism.

[bordertangoman]

Euphonium: a brass instrument smaller than but resembling a tuba and having a range from B flat below the bass staff upward for three octaves

w w w.merriam-webster.com/art/dict/euphoniu.htm for a pic

[elisedance]

Euphonium: a brass instrument smaller than but resembling a tuba and having a range from B flat below the bass staff upward for three octaves

w w w.merriam-webster.com/art/dict/euphoniu.htm for a pic

Know it too well - used to play one in the school band!

telephone

[Heather2007]

Hmmm ... not sure I like the idea of having ladies pay a guy for a dance.

Corrrrr - I would. Especially if he resembled the 'just out of the shower' Dolce & Gabbano model I saw in the magazine this morning. Quids in. Yum, Yum;)

[nucat78]

As soon as you have young men, favors and possibly payment in any phrase or word, there is an immediate mental link to sexual antics of some sort.

Isn't there a group for people who are sex antics analogous to Alcoholics Anonymous?

[Joe]

Antics?

[nucat78]

Antics?

Oui. Wanted to see if anyone would catch it.

So the license plate is waltz, foxtrot, quickstep, etc?

[elisedance]

So the license plate is waltz, foxtrot, quickstep, etc?

actually, its joe's longest post abbreviated....

[DancePoet]

Dance host is probably the best term but it sounds very much like a euphomism [aside: a euphomism or an euphomism - the former seems better - where are the grammar police when you need them...]. Its a verbal quagmire. As soon as you have young men, favors and possibly payment in any phrase or word, there is an immediate mental link to sexual antics of some sort.
This isn't the approach used in my area at all. A dance host doesn't need to be young, and the dance hosts are permited into a dance complimentary by the organizer in return for being certain to ask the various ladies without dance partners to dance. It is done quite honorably wiht everyone undertsanding what is happening. :cool:

[elisedance]

I'm sure that is correct - and I have seen teh same term used. However, if you asked someone that was not in the dance field what it meant I can bet an alternative interpretation would cross their minds.

[tsb]

"taxi dancers to keep the ladies happy and to encourage beginner leaders to keep coming back. Have any of you lot heard of this being tried and did it make a difference."

I know of at least one town (which shall remain nameless) where the organizers adress this need by having men show up specifically to provide partners where men are in short supply. It's all done sort of "on the sly". These events have continued to be popular for several years, so I guess it must be working.
To me the term "taxi dancer" implies payment for dance, and the only place I'm sure this goes on is in Buenos Aires, based on my readings. From what I read it is a pretty common thing there.


also for ballroom in japan.


I have thoughts about how most of us think about paying for things with money, which aren't fully formed and which I should proabably keep to myself.


cultural thing. but it's not uncommon for instructors charge by the hour to accompany a private student to a dance.


You would know best whether such an idea would be accepted in your community. But maybe you don't mean "taxi dancer" in that sense.

Cruise lines have "Gentlemen Host" programs. Cruise in return for dancing with the ladies.


pretty nice deal except we're not allowed to accept tips and/or fraternize with passengers - but that doesn't stop some of them from slipping room keys into our pockets!


What can you offer these men? Free lessons? Free admission to the milonga?


i get work as a dance host/escort for dance events, primarily ballroom. market rate here (S. CAL) is $150/1st three hours, new year's eve events pay considerably more, but it's *WORK* - the main goal is generally limiting injury from vulcan death grips, arm-pinning shoulder clamps, and avoiding open flame when partners exhale (we're talking blotto, folks!).

i heartily subscribe to the concept of reaching out and engaging newcomers and beginners - the goodwill generally comes round when said newcomer/beginner eventually becomes a sought after partner and remembers your kindness. but the situation in certain ballroom circles is that the majority of followers simply have not improved appreciably. in these cases like these, just getting in for free just isn't worth it IMO.

====================
not so long ago, males were relegated to dancing and practicing with each other to get good enough to dance with the women. i love the irony.

but things have changed. the standards of dance etiquette are changing. but as i understand it, etiquette has always been about courteous behavior geared towards the minimizing of giving offense. so IMO, what is most significant is that the consequences of giving offense have changed.

back when the consequences of boorish behavior included a risk of not getting invited to social events, people were more inclined to observe the niceties. nowadays, being a sought after partner pretty much mitigates any potential downside to rude or discourteous behavior.

[nucat78]

pretty nice deal except we're not allowed to accept tips and/or fraternize with passengers - but that doesn't stop some of them from slipping room keys into our pockets!


So how do you deal with that? Seriously. Toss the key overboard?


the main goal is generally limiting injury from vulcan death grips, arm-pinning shoulder clamps, and avoiding open flame when partners exhale (we're talking blotto, folks!).


:lol:

[tsb]

So how do you deal with that? Seriously. Toss the key overboard?

:lol:

apparently you are not aware of the "why did the chicken cross the road?" thread.

i usually just leave the key where a porter can "find it" and return it.

[elisedance]

apparently you are not aware of the "why did the chicken cross the road?" thread.


must have missed that one. can you recycle?

As the belgian hare said, I'm all ears...

[tsb]

must have missed that one. can you recycle?

As the belgian hare said, I'm all ears...

it's a thread, years old, probably in the dancers anon. forum - a search on "cross the road" should probably unearth it. rumor has it that thread won some sort of DF award that year.