A Night of "Ah-ha's!"

[Peaches]

Not sure where else to put this--maybe the General Dancing forum, but most is pretty particular to AT, so here it is.

Saturday night I went dancing, and had several "Ah-ha!" moments.

I finally understood what people here meant by dancing "fast tango" to a milonga. I'd never gotten that before--same steps, albeit a subset particularly suited to milonga, but still very much the same dance. Until this weekend, dancing with a relative beginner, and we definitely danced a fast tango...not a milonga. Now, I get it. I know I'd felt that before, but it never clicked with me just what didn't feel right about a particular lead's milonga. Good grief, what a difference! (And, I'm happy to note, I'm pretty sure I've always danced my part as an actual milonga.)

I also finally understood what Angel has been saying about really passing weight through a step (or however it's been phrased; apologies, Angel, for not remembering your wording, which is much better than mine). I was watching a performance and was just absolutely mesmerized by the woman's walk. It was stunning. It had this beautiful quality of looking both sharp/clean and relaxed/waiting at the same time. And as I was watching, I came to realize how much she was emphasizing the middle points of each step. It was like there was this little, infinitesimal delay before fully moving to each new step. Absolutely gorgeous!

Lessee...what else... Oh yeah.

I finally felt, and understood, the difference between active and passive following. Granted, not for long, and only with one leader in particular. I was dancing with this one (very good teacher) guy, who I've danced with a couple of times in the past and it's never gone well. Of course, with the memory of each additional failure on my part to follow nicely, the head game gets worse and I follow even more poorly than before. But on Saturday, I just kind of force myself to relax and kept telling myself that he's a good and considerate enough leader to know to start out very basic. And, he did. He's an unbelievably subtle leader, and I really need to get better to dance better with him. But when I closed my eyes, I found I was OK, and things were good. (Of course, I couldn't close my eyes much b/c the floor was crowded w/ lots of dangerous and inconsiderate leaders.)

So, anyway. We were dancing milonga (of course it had to be milonga just to add to the stress level--couldn't have been a nice vals). He dances a very sober, traditional, subtle style. And I don't know what possessed me--probably a good song and some happiness that I wasn't totally screwing up--but I just started...moving. Still following (!) of course, but moving my body more. Torso and shoulders. I just couldn't help it; I wanted to move! And then...I felt him moving with me, and playing with it, and the next thing I knew "it" was going back and forth between us and it was wonderful! Now, if only I could get the hang/feel of that more often! (But hey, journey, single step, blah blah blah.)

And then there were just a couple of really nice dances (for me, at least...hopefully they were at least mildly pleasant for the leaders) with two different teachers. One guy I met a couple of years ago, and he was the absolute nicest guy. I didn't know then that he was a teacher. He's stood out in my mind b/c he refused to let me get nervous, refused to let me apologize for a mistake, and just had the absolute kindest way of dealing with things. He made me laugh at myself, and at him, and relax and have fun and feel OK about being a beginner. And I got to dance with him again, and it was the same way. Ahhh...heaven.

And a similar thing happened with another teacher Saturday. Again, I didn't realize that he was a teacher. Things were going fine, then I messed up and immediately (and reflexively) apologized. And he "snapped" at me, and told me not to say things like that. Perhaps it sounds mean, but it totally wasn't. It was like he was saying I had no "right" to feel like I did something wrong, or that I had not "right" to feel bad about it. Very liberating. One time when I screwed up (and knew it as soon as I did it), I could just about see the look of "huh, that's not what I meant...oh well!" And he just smiled and went on leading like he meant me to do what I'd screwed up doing. Didn't hurt that his musicality was amazing, and his embrace...*swoon*

To those leaders out there--thank you, thank you, thank you when you can be gracious like that. It means the world to some of us, and we certainly don't forget it. (And certainly puts a different spin on the "better dancers=snobs?" thing being discussed in the ballroom forum, that's for sure.)

[Me]

Not sure where else to put this--maybe the General Dancing forum, but most is pretty particular to AT, so here it is.

Saturday night I went dancing, and had several "Ah-ha!" moments.

Funny! This must be the weekend of "Ah ha" moments. :) I had an "ah ha" r-e-f-r-e-s-h-er course this weekend. I told my coach, "My tango doesn't feel right. Can you fix it?" So we spent some time on basics where he gave me all these great little fixes that made a huge difference in the overall look and feel of the dance.

I also finally understood what Angel has been saying about really passing weight through a step (or however it's been phrased; apologies, Angel, for not remembering your wording, which is much better than mine). I was watching a performance and was just absolutely mesmerized by the woman's walk. It was stunning. It had this beautiful quality of looking both sharp/clean and relaxed/waiting at the same time. And as I was watching, I came to realize how much she was emphasizing the middle points of each step. It was like there was this little, infinitesimal delay before fully moving to each new step. Absolutely gorgeous!.)

That's great! Many people resist this idea because they hear 'middle' and completely misinterpret the meaning. Since you are on the verge of understanding this movement quality, it's too bad he isn't in your area right now. From what you write here, you seem to be in touch with how the dance 'feels,' so I think you would get a lot out of what he has to offer.

Things were going fine, then I messed up and immediately (and reflexively) apologized.

Oh don't worry - I do it, too, though usually it is not an apology so much as it is a "Tee hee" or a "Whoops!" Sometimes I just giggle. (I think the leads sometimes just don't know what to make of this nutcase girl who dances with her eyes closed and laughs when something screws up... and says, "weeee!" during nice colgadas.)

[Peaches]

Funny! This must be the weekend of "Ah ha" moments. :) I had an "ah ha" r-e-f-r-e-s-h-er course this weekend. I told my coach, "My tango doesn't feel right. Can you fix it?" So we spent some time on basics where he gave me all these great little fixes that made a huge difference in the overall look and feel of the dance. I'm thinking I need something like that. Seems I had been on a plateau for a damn long time, then everything started changing all at once. How I used my body, how I used my feet, delaying certain movements, my walk, everything. And now it's all gone to hell in a handbasket. It's like I got it, then everything--including stuff that didn't change, really basic stuff--all just fell apart. DH keeps telling me this is a natural and very important part of the learning process, and is good, and that it will come back together, but...oy!

That's great! Many people resist this idea because they hear 'middle' and completely misinterpret the meaning. Since you are on the verge of understanding this movement quality, it's too bad he isn't in your area right now. From what you write here, you seem to be in touch with how the dance 'feels,' so I think you would get a lot out of what he has to offer. Oh, believe me. I wish he was anywhere nearby. Even relatively nearby...I'd drive for a few lessons. Alas, it's not to be. Too bad I can't take a vacation to HI and squeeze in a few lessons while I'm there! :-) That would definitely skew my per lesson cost, lol.

I this case, I wasn't so much resisting it, as really just not getting it. Now, having seen it, it makes perfect sense. ...if only I could figure out how to do it myself...

Oh don't worry - I do it, too, though usually it is not an apology so much as it is a "Tee hee" or a "Whoops!" Sometimes I just giggle. (I think the leads sometimes just don't know what to make of this nutcase girl who dances with her eyes closed and laughs when something screws up... and says, "weeee!" during nice colgadas.)Heh. That's better than the "Ack! What the F was that?!?!" that came out of my mouth without proper screening on Saturday. (Missed a lead for a volcada.)

Unfortunately, I couldn't do much dancing with my eyes closed. The floor was just too dangerous--not slick, but pretty crowded and a bunch of people who didn't know (care?) enough to dance responsibly. One partner got his heel stepped on really badly, I got kicked in the thigh (thigh!!!), there were numerous colisions (despite my best efforts to warn my leaders--sometimes people would just come out of nowhere). And, not surprisingly, all incidents happened with the same subset of repeat offenders--there were four leaders who should have been spoken to. (Uncharacteristically for me, I turned down an invitation to dance. It was one of the four men, and I wasn't going to put myself or others in that kind of danger with him.)

[kieronneedscake]

Congratulations Peaches, you've been chasing these ideas with the tenacity of a bloodhound, and you made it! You'll never dance the same from now on, because you only have to "feel" the difference once to change your perspective. Now you'll chase it like a drug-addict...

I attended a 6-person workshop recently. I told a friend about it, and how we worked on posture (women not sending their bottoms backward along with their legs), embrace, relaxing shoulders - her comment was "That sounds a bit basic". What my friend has yet to realise is that these basic revisions are what we 6 needed to help us up to the next plateau. Our little bad habits inhibit everything else, from figures to connection, to dancing stamina.

Moral of the story is that every time you learn something, you have to unlearn a load of other things and put them back together in light of the new improvements. You learned them incompletely before, and have to retrain your reflexes. It's a necessarily destructive and reconstructive process, and by God, it's sometimes a painful transition!

[Angel HI]

I am remembering our little chat of how /when things come together. I am happy for you because you are one of those who sincerely tries hard. And, yes, alas, I am not in your area, but I am stateside (Gulf Coast) for what appears to be quite a while. Who knows?

What my friend has yet to realise is that these basic revisions are what we 6 needed to help us up to the next plateau.

Moral of the story is that every time you learn something, you have to unlearn a load of other things and put them back together in light of the new improvements. (my bold)

So happy to read this post. What an important thing you have written. Wish more would read it, reread it, and reread it again until they understand it.

[delamusica]

Yay Peaches! Those nights are so few and far between - congrats on finding one.

[Light Sleeper]

Thanks for sharing, Peaches. Good stuff! Though from the title I thought you might be sharing your experiences of an Abba-themed milonga ;)

And couldn't agree more with Kieron's comments about revising the fundementals. How many times do you hear people saying that they can do more advanced stuff than what's being taught and generally crab a lot yet their basic technique is skew-wiff? :doh:

[Peaches]

Yeah, but sometimes you've got to do stuff beyond the basics in order to gain the perspective and experience to actually be able to go back and revisit the basic stuff and make it better.

I thought my walking was fine. Now I've progressed, and I want to go back and re-work it, but there is no way I could have done the current re-working before...I just wouldn't have had the perspective. I'm sure there will be further rounds of going back and re-doing my walk and other fundamentals as i continue to progress. I think I learn in a spriraling fashion.

That said...yeah... Some people can pull crappily-executed "fancy stuff" out of their pockets, but can't lead a basic weight change nicely.

[Mario7]

I finally understood what people here meant by dancing "fast tango" to a milonga. I'd never gotten that before--same steps, albeit a subset particularly suited to milonga, but still very much the same dance. Until this weekend, dancing with a relative beginner, and we definitely danced a fast tango...not a milonga. Now, I get it.

It is very positive to read all of the enthusiasm and beaming over the learning
gains that the posters are experiencing. I want to ask that they please post details no matter how small and how seemingly personal they may appear.
IE: to have a walk 'fixed' or to unlearn small 'bad habits' , I would really appreciate reading what those littel 'fixes' and 'bad habits' were...it would be a help and maybe a BIG help to myself and others..even if only one little tid bit got thru and made a difference...
As for the 'Dancing Tango to the Milonga'....hmmmm, would you please detail what made the dance a 'Tango'?? Was it some step sequences or a movement like a back ocho? Any details are sure to help me and others to picture what you are referring to.
I'm new to the A.T. scene (6th mos.) and I'm getting the impression that many posters in different forums are very shy about saying too much detailed info. about where they are at (dance-wise) and their opinions on specifics of the dance because it seems that the A.T. dancers are a very critical lot... please, don't make this last paragraph a new topic for this thread...I'm just posting my wish for more details here and elsewhere..thks:|

[Peaches]

It is very positive to read all of the enthusiasm and beaming over the learning
gains that the posters are experiencing. I want to ask that they please post details no matter how small and how seemingly personal they may appear.
IE: to have a walk 'fixed' or to unlearn small 'bad habits' , I would really appreciate reading what those littel 'fixes' and 'bad habits' were...it would be a help and maybe a BIG help to myself and others..even if only one little tid bit got thru and made a difference...
As for the 'Dancing Tango to the Milonga'....hmmmm, would you please detail what made the dance a 'Tango'?? Was it some step sequences or a movement like a back ocho? Any details are sure to help me and others to picture what you are referring to.
I'm new to the A.T. scene (6th mos.) and I'm getting the impression that many posters in different forums are very shy about saying too much detailed info. about where they are at (dance-wise) and their opinions on specifics of the dance because it seems that the A.T. dancers are a very critical lot... please, don't make this last paragraph a new topic for this thread...I'm just posting my wish for more details here and elsewhere..thks:|LOL!!!

1)I'm always perfectly happy to talk more about AT. (You've got to be new to D-F...give it some time, I'm sure you'll hope I stop, or at least stop rambling about it! Lol.)

2)I've got to laugh, b/c your question about the fast tango v. milonga difference is one I first heard mentioned here, and I just could never understand what people were talking about...until the other night. Like I said, I'd felt it, but never made the connection to the descriptions.

3)I'm not sure how enthusiastic I am about posting overly personal details, but I don't mind answering questions...if it's too personal I can pm.

So, lessee...

Fixes and unlearning bad habits... For me, the big thing recently has been delaying changing weight even more. I've stopped the rushing, but need to really delay and wait, while extending my free leg where it's been told to move. I still "react too quickly."

Another thing would be keeping my posture (up, core tight/toned) ALWAYS. I have a tendency to drop and collapse in open embrace, particularly when I become unsure/unstable, which just makes things worse. Basic stuff, but I need to fix it. As my teacher put it a few lessons ago, "I'm tired of telling you this. You should know better. I don't want to have to tell you again." Ouch. Got my attention, though.

Walking. My walk is changing a lot right now. I'm thinking about collecting through my knees (instead of my feet/ankles). Combine this with delaying, and keeping my core toned, and it feels completely different. It's like a world of separation happens between my ribcage and my hips, my hips feel very "loose" and "fluid," and it generally feels extremely powerful and feminine and (dare I say it?) sexy.

I'm bending my knees a lot more than I used to, as well, and trying to really move by working my torso and contracting the side of my standing leg to lengthen the side of the moving leg, and having the movement really originate in my torso and hips, instead of just from the hips down. (How's that for a run-on sentence? In my defense, I'm an economist, not an English major.)

About the fast tango v. milonga...I'll try to describe it, although it's already been described on various threads, and I don't know that I'll have any better luck conveying it. It wasn't particularly steps or sequences, but that was part of it. I think of milonga as focusing more on the rhythm. As such, small and simple rhythmic steps just feel better. The action is different, too. It's less stately (although stately is challenging, given the speed and feel), and more playful. I really feel the movement as a "spring-y-ness" in the knees and ankles. Which isn't to say that you're bopping around... I'm not helping very much, am I? ;-)

[Mario7]

Thanks for the details, I'm glad I asked!... anyway, all (except the Tango/Milonga:confused:) is very clear and very helpful.:)
Perhaps, what you're saying is that you've learned to dance and feel the music in the Milonga?..I have heard that Portenios do not like having the Milonga nor the Vals referred to as Tango...not even Tango-Vals. So, I am interested in hearing how you were able to link them.

[Ampster]

IMHO, My biggest Ah-ha! Was captured in this thread that I started: "Don't impress her with your..." http://dance-forums.com/showthread.php?t=20204

It took me the longest time to reach "Simplicity" in order to concentrate on connection and leading skills, while being able to incorporate the "Fancy stuff" only when appropriate.

When I first started out, I thought that "Fancy was cool." I was wrong. At least not in AT, not all the time.

In order to allow Peaches to achieve her epiphany, the leader must do his part also. Tango after all, is a conversation between two bodies trying to move in unison, as one, without words. But, with feeling, passion, and a deep level of intimacy.

Thus, I think for a leader's part, my old thread would compliment Peaches' (Just MY opinion)

[kieronneedscake]

My fine details:

Not getting lured into a muscular embrace - the tendency when dancing with beginners and "heavy" dancers is to use a lot of muscle to initiate turns and balance. The key ones for me were on the front of the shoulder. The muscles one would use for doing push-ups are the guilty party. I have been taught (several times, d'oh!) to think more about using the muscles underneath and behind the shoulder. The knock-on effect of this is an elbow that points downward. It is incredibly difficult to maintain this arm position and correspondingly relaxed shoulder if your partner does not do likewise.

Point number 2 is so obvious it's ridiculous - actually holding my partner's hand. Even and gentle pressure, ideally palm to palm. My reflexive tendency is to provide the palm, but to leave the fingers out of the equation, but I am told that they help as long as they do not over-tighten.

In the big scheme of problems leaders have to deal with, these are fairly minor, but the purpose of my recent workshop was to make me more communicative.

[Peaches]

Thanks for the details, I'm glad I asked!... anyway, all (except the Tango/Milonga:confused:) is very clear and very helpful.:)
Perhaps, what you're saying is that you've learned to dance and feel the music in the Milonga?..I have heard that Portenios do not like having the Milonga nor the Vals referred to as Tango...not even Tango-Vals. So, I am interested in hearing how you were able to link them.Lol. I didn't think I'd be very helpful with that description, despite my best effort.

It was not, for me, a matter of learning to dance and feel the rhythm of the milonga. I feel confident in saying that I'd always felt it, and always danced it. (Not well, I'll grant you.) When I FIRST started, and was FIRST introduced to milonga, my teacher made the comment that I was the only student he'd ever had who understood and "got" milonga from the very beginning. Con traspie, no less! :-) (It wasn't until later that I learned that milonga could be danced w/o traspie...I was taught with it from the beginning, and never struggled with it, and it felt absolutely natural to me, because I could hear it in the music.) OK, enough bragging. :oops:

My struggle with the fast tango thing wasn't a matter of dancing it, but rather a matter of understanding what other people meant by that description. Previous to this weekend's revelation, I just thought of it as "bad milonga" and left it at that. This weekend it clicked as to why it felt bad to me.

Regarding milonga as tango, or vals as tango, or tango vals, or lord-knows-what-else... Personally, I really just don't care. No offense intended. All I mean is, we all know what a milonga or a vals or a tango is...I see no reason to deal with huffy Portenos about what to call it...I'd prefer if we all just shut up and danced to it. If I dance a vals like a vals, as does he, I don't see how it matters if i call it "tango vals" and he thinks that's heresy. Really, there are bigger issues in the world to deal with, and I don't have time for quibbling. And besides, I've heard plenty of honest-to-goodness Portenos call it "tango vals," so...whatever.

It's reminiscent of other hot topics (amongst people who somehow find the energy to get hot-n-bothered about such things...god knows I've got about enough energy to get me through the day, and that's only with caffeine and naps) such as dancing tango to nuevo or alternative music, or needing to know the composer/orchestra/arranger/color of the tie the bandoneonist was wearing when he made that particular recording, or needing to understand Castellano, or needing to have gone to Argentina, or...blah blah blah. Too much talking, not enough dancing. If other people want to get their knickers in a twist about such things, that's fine and good...meanwhile, I'll be dancing what they're arguing about.

[Peaches]

Point number 2 is so obvious it's ridiculous - actually holding my partner's hand. Even and gentle pressure, ideally palm to palm. My reflexive tendency is to provide the palm, but to leave the fingers out of the equation, but I am told that they help as long as they do not over-tighten.Interesting. I don't generally care about that hand much at all in close embrace. (In open, it's a whole different ballgame.) No hand hold (I'll usually put my right hand on the guy's torso, along his ribcage), fingertip hold, palm to palm (actually, that's often my least favorite, unless a guy does it well), whatever. Doesn't matter to me. Finger matter even less to me.

Take a look at my pics online. Do you see the hand hold I've got with my teacher. Perfectly useful, very comfortable, one of my favorite holds. No fingers on his part involved (except his thumb, of course), and not really palm to palm connection. It was more a connection between the outside edge of my hand to the muscle along the thumb side of his palm. Wonderful...

Edit to add: I thought I had a pic in there that showed it. Guess not. I've submitted a photo, and it's awaiting approval.

[kieronneedscake]

Point taken, there are many possible holds, and many of them are good. I trust the teacher in question very much and that was her preference, but there is an underlying truth here - regardless of exact hand geometry the teacher wanted, it was mobile and connected with no restrictions.

I have seen truly excellent dancers using all sorts of exotic hand holds, but this one was quite sociable and not too posey. What it has made me concentrate on more now is avoiding some kind of coat-hanger arrangement.

[Mario7]

My struggle with the fast tango thing wasn't a matter of dancing it, but rather a matter of understanding what other people meant by that description. Previous to this weekend's revelation, I just thought of it as "bad milonga" and left it at that. This weekend it clicked as to why it felt bad to me.
.

I just re read your first post in the thread. I think I get it now...that the fast-tango interpretation of the Milonga, feels WRONG.
When I first read it, I thought that you were saying that it was great discovering that way to
dance it. Did I get it, this time? thks:confused:

[jhpark]

yup, that's what she said.

now i'm sitting here wondering whether i dance fast tango to milonga or actually dance, you know, milonga to milonga :)

sadly, it's no longer a moot point as i do sometimes actually dance to milongas now

[spectator]

At last people are getting what jfm and I have been saying for aaaaaaaages!

[Angel HI]

Indeed. 2 completely different dances.

[Peaches]

At last people are getting what jfm and I have been saying for aaaaaaaages!Yep! Now it makes perfect sense! (Jeez, that was so simple...why didn't I realize that before!)

[bafonso]

For me milonga is all about having fun and using the traspie in a non-overboard way. The steps that you should use are simple so that's one way to see how the musical leaders are.

A lot of them keep on doing the same and same, while they could just be varying slightly and playing with the music.

There's so much fun to have with milonga music. But it also requires musicality and technique. From the use of syncopation to the ability to do really small steps fast but maintaining the height and connection to the floor, it is damn hard to get it right. But, at the same time, if you keep it simple and dance to the level of your follower, it's a blast.

Sadly, I see a lot of ppl doing tango (fancier) moves to milonga music...<sigh>