Why don't guys dance?

[dancin_feet]

Just curious to know whether this is a worldwide phenomenon, or just our slack Aussie men, but why don't men want to learn to dance? Don't they realise that women are far more attracted to the way a guy moves, than the way he drinks his beer? :?

Even in a nightclub atmosphere here, you will get girls dancing together and the guys standing around the dancefloor, beer in hand checking out all the girls. I find it really frustrating, and feel like saying sometimes "Don't look at me with that lecherous look in your eye, come and join me!". :x

What are your thoughts, and feedback you have had from males who just will not dance, or think that it is not "manly"? And what can we do to change it and get them out there and take classes?

[Spitfire]

I think a lot of men just think it's not really a thing for guys. Now, when I was a kid I along with other boys thought it was something for sissies. (how I've grown up since :lol:).

But isn't it kind of interesting how some movie dancers are portrayed as tough guys - Patrick Swayze, John Travolta and the former Menudo member in the movie Salsa?

[pygmalion]

I didn't know he used to be in Menudo. Hmm. You learn something every day. 8)

[Pacion]

Alas Dancin_Feet, it is a worldwide phenomenon. :(

But, it was a couple of guys in Sydney that made me want to throttle them! :evil: I was at a salsa place, standing at a corner of the dancefloor. A couple of guys came in and were basically leering at the girls who were dancing. They then started making comments about, why do people bother to dance, or why even buy the girl a drink? Why don't they just skip it and just get straight "into it" and I was like: :shock: which caveman movie did YOU just crawl off of! :shock:

[danceguy]

Hmm, since I've started dancing I'm still surprised at how many women I talk with who do not dance. Most will say "oh yea I've gotten drunk and shaken my booty in a club a few times," but I've met next to none who have actually taken lessons to learn a particular style.

Before I got into dance, any girl I was courting who asked about dancing would send me running in the other direction! Now that I enjoy to dance and its a big part of my life...I wonder where all the women who want to dance have gone? At most dances there are very few women to dance with in my area...and even less that are my age and single.

Hmm...maybe its time to relocate? Where are you ladies? :?

SG

[salsachinita]

But isn't it kind of interesting how some movie dancers are portrayed as tough guys - Patrick Swayze, John Travolta and the former Menudo member in the movie Salsa?

Maybe because (at least in the world of salsa clubs), these "top dogs" (read: "alpha males") tend to be like that, with huge egos to go with their dancability :x :roll: :lol: !

[salsachinita]

I didn't know he used to be in Menudo. Hmm. You learn something every day. 8)

His name is Robby Rosa. My biggest movie crush....EVER! He was in Menudo with Ricky Martin (the youngest one!)....and now I believe he's part of the production team for Ricky.

Robby Rosa was my catalyst for learning salsa in the first place (*a young Salsachinita thought: Learn salsa, get THAT guy :roll: *)!

:roll: things we do....! :roll:

[voilsb]

I live in a lead-heavy scene. So, around here at least, guys do dance ;)

And lots of my friends who aren't into partnered dancing are still into the b-boy/club scene.

[ShyDancer]

His name is Robby Rosa. My biggest movie crush....EVER!

Robby Rosa was my catalyst for learning salsa in the first place (*a young Salsachinita thought: Learn salsa, get THAT guy :roll: *)!

:roll: things we do....! :roll:

I adore him, (even with that terrible 80s style hair!) honestly if he were to step out of scene 8 (y'know the billboard scene) and ask me to marry him Id probably say yes! I unashamedly admit to playing that scene over and over..even downloaded the sone Puerto Rico I love it so much!


Hmm back on topic though..... I have NO idea why guys dont dance! The few that I do know have girls practically swooning at their feet...I wonder why that doesnt encourage their friends!

[pygmalion]

I live in a lead-heavy scene. So, around here at least, guys do dance ;)

And lots of my friends who aren't into partnered dancing are still into the b-boy/club scene.

Hi voilsb. Welcome. 8) :D

[salsachinita]

The few that I do know have girls practically swooning at their feet...I wonder why that doesnt encourage their friends!

Tell me about it.......! These guys who have 'made' it realised that they have the PICK of a large number of females (thus tend to grow an ego) & can get away with murder :x .....(yes, I keep meeting them :roll: )!

If more guys (read: their friends) would get into it, there will be some competition for the "top dogs"........maybe they will actually have to be NICE for a change 8) !

[dancin_feet]

Alas Dancin_Feet, it is a worldwide phenomenon. :(

But, it was a couple of guys in Sydney that made me want to throttle them! :evil: I was at a salsa place, standing at a corner of the dancefloor. A couple of guys came in and were basically leering at the girls who were dancing. They then started making comments about, why do people bother to dance, or why even buy the girl a drink? Why don't they just skip it and just get straight "into it" and I was like: :shock: which caveman movie did YOU just crawl off of! :shock:

Unfortunately this is the type of man we have to choose from. :cry: No wonder I'm still single!!! :twisted: The whole "Aussie occa" attitude really annoys me at times.

So what can we do girls? I've tried to get the few guys who do come to class to start writing on the back of public toilet doors things like "dancing is cool" or "wanna get chicks? go dancing". Hasn't worked so far! For you guys, what made you start? Was it through a woman you were seeing, or did you start of your own accord?

[Spitfire]

Hasn't worked so far! For you guys, what made you start? Was it through a woman you were seeing, or did you start of your own accord?

My own accord; it just looked like something fun and exiting to me. It actually started in the freestyle rock and roll club environment for me when I watched other guys as well as women dancing and realized if these guys are doing it why can't I? I later progressed from this to ballroom and swing.

[tsb]

Just curious to know whether this is a worldwide phenomenon, or just our slack Aussie men, but why don't men want to learn to dance? Don't they realise that women are far more attracted to the way a guy moves, than the way he drinks his beer? :?

Even in a nightclub atmosphere here, you will get girls dancing together and the guys standing around the dancefloor, beer in hand checking out all the girls. I find it really frustrating, and feel like saying sometimes "Don't look at me with that lecherous look in your eye, come and join me!". :x

What are your thoughts, and feedback you have had from males who just will not dance, or think that it is not "manly"? And what can we do to change it and get them out there and take classes?

the processes of dancing and learning to be a good leader provide so many opportunities for us to look like idiots, and we men are basically nothing more than lumps of insecurity held together by skin to begin with. and since i'm one of the few guys who's available & generally in demand as a leader i'm not sure i want to give you any hints as to how to overcome that!



i have many friends who've seen me dance and marvel at the number of attractive women i meet through dance yet still won't go for it.

[salsachinita]

we men are basically nothing more than lumps of insecurity held together by skin to begin with.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Can I quote & frame this one.....?

and since i'm one of the few guys who's available & generally in demand as a leader i'm not sure i want to give you any hints as to how to overcome that!

:lol: Why not........? :wink: you will be doing us all a favour.... :D !

[Hank]

Some men find it easy to meet and attract women. They tend to find dancing unnecessary and won't dance unless they have some special interest in it.

Other men find it more difficult to meet women, and they might have heard that dancing will make them more attractive to women, so they give it a try. I've met a lot of men like this, they frequently seem disappointed in the results, and they tend to quit. They often comment that the age of the women at the dances is not what they're looking for and that the women seem to be there just to dance and aren't really interested in a relationship. Also, dancing does not seem to make up for whatever made it difficult for them to attract women in the first place. Thus, whatever problems they had pre-dancing, they brought with them to dancing, and they still have post-dancing. A man who dances might be a plus for some women, but it does not make up for a lack of physical attraction, emotional closeness, or whatever else it is that women want.

As for me, I've never met a girlfriend through dancing. Dancing does not make me more attractive to non-dancing women because they see it as a time-consuming and expensive hobby requiring skills that they do not possess. Dancing does not make me more attractive to dancing women for all the reasons I described above. In addition, in the dancing culture, knowing how to dance is commonplace, so it does not make me special. Taking more lessons and becoming a better dancer does not make me more attractive; instead, it actually makes me less attractive because it moves my ability further away from the median level of the women at the dance.

[dancin_feet]

and since i'm one of the few guys who's available & generally in demand as a leader i'm not sure i want to give you any hints as to how to overcome that!

:lol: Why not........? :wink: you will be doing us all a favour.... :D !

Probably for the same reason the dancing guys that I know like to be in the minority and in demand from all these beautiful ladies.

Male ego at work I think!! :lol:

[brujo]

His name is Robby Rosa. My biggest movie crush....EVER!


Should see him now. He is a really big producer and one of the singers in the forefront of Spanish Rock. He is the author of Ricky Martin's Living La Vida Loca.

Back to the topic at hand. I think fear of dancing is a cultural thing. Some cultures are musical, very in touch with feelings ( 'tango is a feeling danced' ... etc ), others are more puritanical and view dancing as wrong.

Some stereotypes of dancers is that they are lazy, dancing, seeking useless enjoyment instead of working hard, which is a big part in the Asian cultures.

I think the whole 'Bart Simpson dances Ballet' fear that I see in guys in North America seems to come from the fact that the culture is not a very musical one. Those who grew up with Dominican parents or in latin countries are used to having lots of birthday dances, weekend dances, etc. It is easier for people in these countries to get over the idea that dancing is gay. But at the same time, dancing never seems like something that needs to be learned because it is already taught to them by the older people in their own populations ( parents, etc ).

If partner dancing was more frequent and more socially acceptable, it would be easier to convince guys to learn to dance. But for now, it will carry a stigma, just as yoga to westeners seems like a girls only phenomena, or martial arts and hockey a guys only thing.

I think men and women are equaly insecure, but the men seem to have a harder job when it comes to dancing. They have a much higher learning curve, forcing a lot of us to quit before we get any enjoyment out of it ( The lady that is always screaming at you for being offbeat or doing something wrong ).

[danceguy]

There were some very good and honest points brought up here....tsb you really hit the nail on the head. Its quite tough to establish yourself as a good lead (I'm not there yet) and I know at times I feel somewhat inadequate to dance with the more advanced women.

I've said before that I got into dancing due to a woman I was interested in...but I had been talking about doing it for years. Although I've had my ups and downs...overall I keep a very positive attitude about dancing.

I go to dances for myself first...to be part of the community, to have fun and meet others. If I happen to meet a lady there, that's great, but its not my sole reason for dancing. If it was I would be in for a lot of disappointment (been there a few times)...so its important to keep things in perspective.

Most of my guy friends who are terrified of dancing either are afraid to look stupid, and/or have had bad experiences related to dance. I remember my big dance scare...many years ago when I was in high school and didn't dance at all, I was at a seminar and a very attractive girl literally tried to drag me onto the dance floor, and I ran out of the building and refused to talk to her for the rest of the weekend. :shock:

Many guys have had experiences like mine....so all of this will come back to haunt us if we let it. I embraced my fears and have made quite a breakthough...but its quite easier said than done! :wink:

SG

[tsb]

we men are basically nothing more than lumps of insecurity held together by skin to begin with.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Can I quote & frame this one.....?

why not? it's true. even the scriptures suggest that harlots seduce their men not by looks or perfume but by flattery!

and since i'm one of the few guys who's available & generally in demand as a leader i'm not sure i want to give you any hints as to how to overcome that!

:lol: Why not........? :wink: you will be doing us all a favour.... :D !

and i benefit because .... i create competition for myself? :P

seriously, the guys i know that are my age and younger seem to fall into the following categories (at least when it comes to ballroom):
- won't dance - ever;
- tried to dance but gave up due to difficulty factor / bad experience on floor / relationship ended;
- use dance as a means leading to some sort of carnal knowledge, if not sex then groping/leering;
- start dancing but are already in an exclusive relationship;
- dance but are gay!


off to an argentine tango lesson - new instructor is supposed to be good in getting people to do the basics correctly.

[dancin_feet]

Thanks for sharing guys. A little insight into the male psyche is always helpful. :D So you are saying that it is mainly a fear based thing? Fear of failure, rejection, looking stupid, etc. And the possible benefits don't come close to being worth taking the risks.

Interesting as I went through the same thing when I started dancing again, procrastinated for over 12 months before I actually picked up the phone to call the studio to make an appointment. Maybe it is a case of as you say, going into it for the wrong reasons (wanting to pick up women) and then being disappointed, or just dismissing it as not worthwhile instead of wanting to do it for themselves.

The "pub" culture being a central part of the Australian way of life, I suspected that it was that guys just didn't want to look like a "poof" in front of their mates. Interesting to know that it is probably more than that. Not that I think that I can change centuries of ingrained behaviour, but I would like to try and change guys' attitudes towards dancing, but am at a bit of a loss as to how to do it. Maybe we need to work on the male peer group, instead of trying to sway the individual? :?:

[salsachinita]

Back to the topic at hand. I think fear of dancing is a cultural thing...........

Some stereotypes of dancers is that they are lazy, dancing, seeking useless enjoyment instead of working hard, which is a big part in the Asian cultures.

You bet...! I don't even want to go into details about how I nearly got kicked out of home for learning to salsa........ :roll:........and my parents were considered "cool"......(can you imagine the other families?)

If partner dancing was more frequent and more socially acceptable, it would be easier to convince guys to learn to dance.

I think the change is already in place. I can only comment on the changes I've observed locally, of course.

15 years ago, salsa was always one of those "cultral" things that only Latinos get into (family/community dances etc.).....a lot of Latino kids my age didn't even get into it until much later. Sure, there were salsa clubs, but non-Latinos (who were not regulars) were generally there to watch/get drunk. Apart from a few of us (non-latin girls, with TWO Aus guys :shock: ), you can just about play "Spot the White Guys" on the dancefloor :shock: !

Now that the dance (mainly ballroom) studios (previously considered salsa/street latin somehow 'improper') have cottoned on the fact that there is money to be made from salsa/street latin, as the popularity of the music/dance/clubs became too important to ignore. A lot of ballroom dancers are starting to 'cross over'.......guys included.

So these days you are getting a more even ethnic/gender mix on the club floor. A lot more of these Aussie guys are starting to brave into the world of salsa (ok, not NEARLY as many as we like them to be, but it's a heathy start).

[I think men and women are equaly insecure, but the men seem to have a harder job when it comes to dancing. They have a much higher learning curve, forcing a lot of us to quit before we get any enjoyment out of it ( The lady that is always screaming at you for being offbeat or doing something wrong ).

:!: This might just be the main deterance :!:


His name is Robby Rosa. My biggest movie crush....EVER!


Should see him now. He is a really big producer and one of the singers in the forefront of Spanish Rock. He is the author of Ricky Martin's Living La Vida Loca.

Oooooohhh......! *flutter, flutter!*

:oops: ok, sometimes getting older doesn't mean getting wiser :roll: :oops: !

[GalacticDancer44M]

There is an interesting thread regarding "do only seniors citizens BallroomDance". I'm a 43 yr old single man and started taking Ballroom lessons a year ago. I received a phone solicitation asking if I'd be interested in a few free dance lessons. Seeing that I always loved dancing, primarily to rock and roll and alternative music, I took them up on the free offer and now I'm going on my 50th lesson and just signed up for 30 more! But, I'm finding out that there aren't any 30-40 yr old single women in Ballroom. Pretty dissappointing. I'm going to start learning more of the Salsa, Mambo, Merengue & Hustle dances in order to find a suitable partner I guess. But, I'm still continuing with the Ballroom dances because I really like them too. I used to date a young lady about 7 yrs ago who was in Modern Dancing and was fantastic, but it never occurred to me that I should take lessons. Just didn't think guys did that! What first inspired me to dance was being at a club in Vegas (off the strip where the locals hung out), I asked a gorgeous brunette to dance. She explained that she was tired and had been dancing all day. Turns out she was a professional Dancer in the stage show "Splash". She was with 2 other vegas show girls and one of them grab my hand and took me out on the dance floor and gave me a dance show I'll never forget! My brother who was with me hung out shooting pool with some locals while I was out dancing with showgirls!! They invited me to see them in the show the next day, so of course I extended our stay and we got front row dead center seats (thanks to a nice tip!) When the curtains opened the brunette I first asked to dance came swimming by in her mermaid outfit in a huge aquarium. She came right up to the glass where we were sitting and blew me a kiss under water. I about died! Then after the aquarium was removed they did a huge formation with rain falling down on the stage and everytime she danced by, she'd splash water at me. Her 2 girlfriends were teasing us too. They really knew how to work us up! Turns out that her girlfriend who danced with me at the club was the Madonna impersonator in Vegas. She did the Madonna routine in another set. So, I still remember the night I danced with Madonna (sort of!) I thought to myself, what am I doing working behind a desk , I should be a professional dancer. Well, it took me some years later and a phone call for lessons before I finally jumped in. Glad I did, but wish I had started sooner!

[Spitfire]

You centainly don't have to be madly in love with someone to enjoy dancing with them; must be, I've yet to date someone I met dancing, but then I'm not into it for that purpose.

None of my close friends are the slightest bit interested in dancing and you couldn't pay them to get out on a dance floor. My one very good longtime friend probably had a hard enough time doing so at his own wedding!

And yet they feel that since it's something I enjoy doing so much they would encourage me to stick with it.

Certainly don't need to be encouraged though.

[danceguy]

Maybe it is a case of as you say, going into it for the wrong reasons (wanting to pick up women) and then being disappointed, or just dismissing it as not worthwhile instead of wanting to do it for themselves.

Hmm, despite that I am into dancing regardless of my relationship status...I remember another post on DF that mentioned like 95% of all men take dance lessons in hopes of meeting women? I also recall DanceMentor mentioning that a lot of couples met in his classes who later got married...

I wonder how many of us guys are being completely honest about this? :wink:

[etchuck]

I'm not sure.. it's probably a cultural thing too.

First off, I'm not sure when dancing became an issue of machismo. Salsa dancing of course I see lots of men and women dancing it. But I think for men, those sort of movements just don't feel natural for some men. Heck, to generalize, white men can't jump or dance. ;) Maybe it's biological: men would rather fight than dance?

I'm glad to meet a lot of women when I'm out dancing. Of course, even being a good dancer, women still would rather dance with me than go out. What's up with that :?:

[etchuck]

To follow up on what There is an interesting thread regarding "do only seniors citizens BallroomDance". .... She was with 2 other vegas show girls and one of them grab my hand and took me out on the dance floor and gave me a dance show I'll never forget! ... the brunette I first asked to dance came swimming by in her mermaid outfit in a huge aquarium. ... Turns out that her girlfriend who danced with me at the club was the Madonna impersonator in Vegas. She did the Madonna routine in another set. ... Well, it took me some years later and a phone call for lessons before I finally jumped in. Glad I did, but wish I had started sooner!

Damn... I've been taking lessons and dancing for years and this never happened to me. I can't believe I've been wasting my time for so long... :wink:

[voilsb]

Hi voilsb. Welcome. 8) :DThanks. I'd been around about a year ago when the board was a fledgling, stopped visiting (and never registered) because it was tiny, and subsequently forgot about it. Then I followed a link to it recently thinking "I wonder how it's doing now?" and found it to be much more active, so after lurking a bit, I ponied up the e-mail addy and registered, lurked a bit more, then finally made myself known with a smart-alecky remark :twisted:

But to seriously address the question, I agree it's partly due to fear/rejection/insecurity, and partly because somewhere along the line (probably when partnered dancing fell to the wayside) it became "unmanly" or whatnot to be a dancer. It took on negative connotations somehow.

[SDsalsaguy]

Hi voilsb. Welcome. 8) :DThanks. I'd been around about a year ago when the board was a fledgling, stopped visiting (and never registered) because it was tiny, and subsequently forgot about it. Then I followed a link to it recently thinking "I wonder how it's doing now?" and found it to be much more active, so after lurking a bit, I ponied up the e-mail addy and registered, lurked a bit more, then finally made myself known with a smart-alecky remark :twisted:
:lol: I'm sure there are actually many people out there who, if they haven't checked us out in a while, would be quite surprised! :D

Glad to have you "back" voilsb! :D

[pygmalion]

Yes. It is nice to have you back. 8) DF has grown heaps in the past year, and it's nice to have some former lurkers making themselves known. Smart alecky remarks are perfectly okay. It's remarks we want. :wink: :D

[KevinL]

1. Men are supposed to be good at physical activities.
2. Dance takes training ( either classes or imitating elders).
3. Guys hate to admit they don't know what they are doing.
4. Dancing puts you _this_ close to women, and guys brains shut down, especially if it's a woman they are interested in knowing better.

What guy would want to put themselves out there and prove to the woman they are interested in that they don't know what they are doing? It's much safer to sit back and drink beer with the guys.

But lets say a guy does start dancing. Most women have probably been dancing with thier friends for years and so can hear the music and move to the beat. Because of lack of experience our guy can't hear the beat and looks like an idiot. (To himself, the women are probably excited that he's trying.)

But our guy keeps going, and keeps trying. Then he finds that his learning curve is much steeper than the woman, and she keeps leaping ahead of him. But our guy keeps struggling along proving dance after dance, class after class, that he is less competent than the lady, which is something that all guys just _love_ women to know. (That was sarcastic, by the way.)

Then he finally gets the nerve to go out dancing and is overwelmed by all the guys who actually do know how to dance. He finally gets up the nerve to ask someone to dance, and she grabs his hands in her lobster-claw grip and immediately starts nagging away that he's not moving to the music, and that he's doing it "wrong".

So he quits and never comes back.



[quote=brujo] ( The lady that is always screaming at you for being offbeat or doing something wrong ).

:!: This might just be the main deterance :!:

[quote="brujo"][quote="salsachinita"]

I obviously don't need to tell the DF audience this, but give beginners a break, just showing up is a big step.

Kevin

[Sabor]

If more guys (read: their friends) would get into it, there will be some competition for the "top dogs"........maybe they will actually have to be NICE for a change 8) !

Sshhh!! leave then ''top dogs'' be.. we paid a high price to be at the top of our game u know! LOL .. so where's the harm in a little confidence here and there... 8)

say YES to 'top dogs'! LOL .. j/k :wink: .. i really dont think its that bad chinita.. really .. there are many great dancing guys out there with a personality to match their dance.. i mean check out the guys in this forum for example.. from their posts .. SD and Boriken for example strike me as being great in both regards .. (yeah i'm biased to salsa i guess) surely there are many others too :D

[HothouseSalsero]

I know this wasn't exactly the original question, but it's come up enough: yes, I absolutely started taking (salsa) dance lessons in order to meet women (although I had always enjoyed dancing). To a large extent it took on a life of its own (or became an end in itself), but would I have been as intense about it as I was for a while if I hadn't also been motivated by the thought of meeting (etc.) women? I don't think I can be entirely sure what the answer to that question is.

A guy starts learning to dance and suddenly women who would not have noticed him before are smiling at him invitingly. They may only be inviting him to ask them to dance, but it's still a big change from before. That's the sort of experience I've had. My love life has not improved beyond my wildest dreams (or even enough to match my wildest dreams), but it has improved.

Anyway, a man who already has no trouble meeting women isn't going to have that motivation for learning to dance. If anything, dancing is an unnecessary risk. Why do something that could make him look stupid, or clumsy or what have you? Then there is the whole thing about it being unmasculine, though I never took that seriously. Fortunately, my family was always somewhat relaxed about gender roles, and even my older brother (who was the biggest gender role enforcer in my family, at least when it came to me) didn't have a problem with dancing, so I never really learned that it was "gay" or wimpy or whatever.

[Vin]

I agree with most of what has been said here. Anybody who starts dancing in order to meet people to date will not last long in dancing unless they actually learn to enjoy dancing for it's own sake. In fact for many(me included) it becomes a matter of thoughts changing from
If I learn to dance I may meet someone(at the beginning)
to
If I meet someone they had better dance.
In my own experience dancing has not helped me pick up women who dance. In fact many women in the dance scene don't want to date in the local dance scene. It seems most want to date somebody who dances well, lives in the area, but is not involved in the local dance scene.
On the other hand I have seen that it is actually not so difficult to pick up women who are new to dancing. For me personally I prefer those women that are dancers.
Back to topic, for me it took 2 years before my dancing was at a level where I felt I could meet the women I wanted to meet due to my dancing alone. I stuck with it because I did enjoy it but unless one does enjoy it for it's own sake that is a pretty long time to put effort into something and not get results. Most guys just aren't going to stick with it.
I have tried to convince my male friends to learn how to dance, but that really never works and actually I think some of the blame goes to the women dancers. I have seen women that I know stop dancing with new guys mid-song because the guy was not leading enough things to keep her interested or because he was having trouble keep beat. One friend of mine that was interested in learning and dated a dancer for a period of time wasn't learning from her because she did not want to teach him, she thought he should learn from someone else. I have even had women who dance ask me to teach there boyfriends how to dance.
One thing that can be done by women is teach your male friends and/or Boyfriends how to dance, not in a nightclub or bar but get together once a week or so in private and teach someone how to dance. Then after a while start taking him out to clubs so he can see the beautiful women dancing. I bet most of you know some guy that would be more than happy to learn how to dance with you.

[HothouseSalsero]

I agree with most of what has been said here. Anybody who starts dancing in order to meet people to date will not last long in dancing unless they actually learn to enjoy dancing for it's own sake. In fact for many(me included) it becomes a matter of thoughts changing from
If I learn to dance I may meet someone(at the beginning)
to
If I meet someone they had better dance.

Yes, this happened for me practically overnight. One moment I was telling a female friend I was taking salsa lessons to meet women; the next moment I was telling her that I definitely wanted to go out with a woman who dances salsa.

One thing that can be done by women is teach your male friends and/or Boyfriends how to dance, not in a nightclub or bar but get together once a week or so in private and teach someone how to dance.

This assumes that a woman (usually the follower) is going to be able to teach a male (usually the lead) how to lead. I know how to lead reasonably well, but I am not sure I would be able to teach much about following. I haven't seriously tried it, so maybe I would be able to help more than I think, but I have my doubts.

[salsarhythms]

I am very dissapointed with all you men who responded... :evil:

Why are you giving tips and advice to the other guys...the less
of them, the more for us... :D

Ok, seriously, here's my advice.

GUYS!!! DO YOU SEE WHAT'S HAPPENING HERE...

You've got a group of beautiful women ASKING you to dance so that
they can dance with you...

Wake up, smell the coffee and get to your dance lessons.

That's it.

[Sagitta]

Don't ever stop plugging away. Persistence works. I've got quite a few people involved with dancing that way... :)

[cupojoe2]

I remember another post on DF that mentioned like 95% of all men take dance lessons in hopes of meeting women?

I do not know if I agree...

Dancing is a great way to meet people and have fun, but as a way to meet women (or men), it is not very efficient. If your primary goal is to meet/date women or men, there are about 1000 easier ways.

For example, one evening about 3 weeks back, I spent 2 hours (1 private, 1 group lesson) working on my “dancing.” On the way home, I stopped for a coffee at one of my favorite spots, in the 2 minutes I was standing in line, a very attractive young women noticed the book I was carrying -- she had read another book by the same writer – we started talking about it and ended up hanging out until the place closed (about 2 hours), talking and drinking coffee by the fireplace. I am going to see her again this weekend. :wink:

I can see the commercial now…


1 large hazelnut coffee, two sugars and cream - $1.65,

1 oatmeal raisin cookie – to share -- $0.95

1 copy of “The Elephant Vanishes,” a collection of short stories
by Haruki Murakami -- $11.20.

Sharing that raisin cookie by a warm fire with a beautiful and intelligent women – without stepping on her feet, counting 1,2,3,4 to yourself or paying hefty lesson fees – PRICELESS.

That said, I am learning to dance for me…

[borikensalsero]

I say blame it on rock and roll. :tongue:

we are too macho to show weakness and emotion. Dancing is full of giving and taking and just to darn much emotional togetherness. That we can't do in public. In public and at times in private we are the stone cold sense of EGO bursting at the seams, of how strong we are to everything that requires to get intouch with emotion... All surounded by a coat of insecurity of course....

[tsb]

if we're going to share our motivation on learning how to dance, i'll confess to being a closet romantic (only my closer friends know i'm not spock like most people who've met me tend to think) and collecting videos & DVDs of all the old fred astaire/ginger rogers movies and wanting to be able to dance like that. fortunately i was too oblivious to realize how bad i truly was for the first 3-4 years - but it was as much a reflection of my attitudes as much as poor technique.

[TemptressToo]

To quote my boyfriend, dancing is "gay." I'm also told by male dancers that do indeed know how to twirl a lady AND who are definitely NOT gay...that the "gay" thing is definitely the majority's reasoning for not participating.

I have to admit...SOME dancing does require a more "femininesque" approach to make it look good.

You might want to try attending a social swing dance or two...there seems to be a lot of male swing dancers. Perhaps, if a friendship is forged...you might easily convince him to cross over. Generally, the swing dancing types enjoy a chance to improve their skills (which can be utilized towards making them look even better on the swing dance floor).

[Porfirio Landeros]

As long as ladies give in to men that don't dance, they'll get what they ask for, because men will do what it takes, but no more than that... and if they don't HAVE to be a dancer, then they won't.

You don't bring a truck home from the dealer, and try to make it a sports car ;-)

[danceguy]

Maybe it's biological: men would rather fight than dance?

Yes! Grrr....*flexes muscles* (hmm, I think its time to start pumping iron again). :?

There's been a lot of talk about getting into dance for potential romance, and it may work for some, not for others. Myself, I used to be terrified of asking women out on dates. Same when asking them to dance. After a few months of dancing asking women to dance has becoming fairly easy for me. I have also noticed that in my day to day life, I'm much more friendly and outgoing to others, I make more eye contact with women I talk to...strike up conversations (see a trend here?)...and I have dancing to thank for that.

Part of the reason I stayed with dancing was that I did meet women I found attractive, and while I may not have dated any of them...at least I got to dance with them! I'd rather share a 5 min dance with a beautiful woman that sit at home and watch TV any day!

Plus ...I've found that if you even say the word "Salsa" around any women of Hispanic/Latino descent...you will suddenly be the center of attention!

Dancing helps us communicate with others on so many levels. Before dance, I could easily be swept away by a woman who was totally the wrong type for me. I've met MANY of these in dance...that person may catch your eye, make your blood surge...but then you dance with her...she's rude, backleading, giving you the deathgrip and/or noodle arms...

Then suddenly...:oops:

All you can think of doing is running away! :car: :headwall:

Being involved in a partner dance with teach you a lot about someone. People who you find attractive suddenly lose their glow when you're holding them close and the masks are off. Or, the person you never would have consider may sweep you off your feet...and just maybe...that stunning person may be even more attractive after you dance with them! :D

So when I admire the female gender now...I may look a lady over but I always think "I wonder if she dances?"...how would it be to dance with her? The few women I knew before dancing were few in number...and I would easily be disappointed if I asked one out and it didn't go well.

Now I have many more options to choose from to have my heart broken! Many opportunites to ask for a dance/date and get rejected, or talk to a woman and see what she's about.

If that's not progress, then I don't know what is. ;)

SG

[cupojoe2]

To quote my boyfriend, dancing is "gay." I'm also told by male dancers that do indeed know how to twirl a lady AND who are definitely NOT gay...that the "gay" thing is definitely the majority's reasoning for not participating.


I think your BF is on to something here... not that dancing is a “gay thing,” but that most men are terrified of doing anything that might cause someone to doubt which team they play for...

Do you remember what Jennifer Lopez said to Matthew McConaughey in the “Wedding Planner” after he told her that he learned to dance in ballroom class?

It is the reason we act so silly about touching each other and won't comment on how other men look.

It is sad...

[salsachinita]

i really dont think its that bad chinita.. really .. there are many great dancing guys out there with a personality to match their dance.. i mean check out the guys in this forum for example.. from their posts .. SD and Boriken for example strike me as being great in both regards .. (yeah i'm biased to salsa i guess) surely there are many others too :D

! Claro! papi....that's why I've spent so much time here 8) ! This is the place (my santuary) where I can share my thoughts/fellings/ideas of salsa/dancing/related issues to these guys who share my passion & will not get the wrong idea (say, if i wanted to talk/share thoughts)...!

I wish nothing more than to one day dance with my DF salseros......

[salsachinita]

Now I have many more options to choose from to have my heart broken! Many opportunites to ask for a dance/date and get rejected, or talk to a woman and see what she's about.

If that's not progress, then I don't know what is. ;)

:uplaugh: :notworth: :notworth: :notworth: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Gotta lov' ya....! :lol: :lol: :lol:

[salsachinita]

One thing that can be done by women is teach your male friends and/or Boyfriends how to dance, not in a nightclub or bar but get together once a week or so in private and teach someone how to dance.

This assumes that a woman (usually the follower) is going to be able to teach a male (usually the lead) how to lead.

HHS hit the nail on its head.......I've had countless requests from guys (friends as well as potential dating interests) who asked me to teach them how to dance. Two reasons why this idea doesn't work:

1. Just because someone is a good dancer at a club does not automatically make them a good teacher. Many great dancers I know have trouble breaking down/explaining the moves.

2. I am a follower (100%! If the lead is NOT there I physically have NO idea what to do :shock: ).......I can't show guys how to lead. I can only work with them once they know how to lead......that's when I can take them to a different level.

8) So guys, take SalsaRhythms' advice.....off to dance lessons.....
so we can dance with YOU :wink: !

[dancin_feet]

I agree that it is very difficult for a follow to teach a leader's steps and lead. Though it is possible. I usually do the step myself and think of the lead I am waiting for and then try to simulate that lead with the person I am teaching. I basically know what I am looking for to tell me to do the step, so if I teach a lead and then get them to dance with me, I know whether it is right or not by how it feels. Kinda like taking the finished product and working backwards.

That's how I teach anyway without having official "lead" classes. I also listen very closely to the lead's steps in group class!!! If I am uncertain though, I won't even attempt it.

I do agree though that leads need to take proper classes in how to lead. This could be a non-confronting start, though. Give 'em a head start before they go out to a public class!

[brujo]

When I was in high school, we had a cafeteria owner who was a good dancer. He was confident when he had to dance, and he seem to know what he was doing. He was not NY salsa flashy, and could never win any competitions, but whenever there was a school event or an assembly and the girls would grab profs out of the crowd to dance with them, he was the only one that laughed and went beyond the simple two-step of the other embarassed white men. His confidence attracted me and made me not think twice when the opportunity came up to dance.

I think something that I don't see too much of anymore is that sheer joy of just dancing that I saw in him. People seem too preocupied with others judging, critisizing, feeding on the insecurities of each other. Don't exactly know where this is going...

[tsb]

One thing that can be done by women is teach your male friends and/or Boyfriends how to dance, not in a nightclub or bar but get together once a week or so in private and teach someone how to dance.

This assumes that a woman (usually the follower) is going to be able to teach a male (usually the lead) how to lead.

HHS hit the nail on its head.......I've had countless requests from guys (friends as well as potential dating interests) who asked me to teach them how to dance. Two reasons why this idea doesn't work:

1. Just because someone is a good dancer at a club does not automatically make them a good teacher. Many great dancers I know have trouble breaking down/explaining the moves.

2. I am a follower (100%! If the lead is NOT there I physically have NO idea what to do :shock: ).......I can't show guys how to lead. I can only work with them once they know how to lead......that's when I can take them to a different level.



i personally learned the nuances of leading from a leader, then developed that skill by practicing with partners of different following ability. i submit that a single follower will only be able to teach a leader how subtle a lead works for her.

my lead can vary depending on the following skills of my partner. example: basic salsa underarm turn. any decent follower will interpret raising her right arm correctly so that she turns underneath it. but let's say she's so inexperienced that she doesn't even know the basic footwork (step straight forward on her left foot, etc.). i raise her right arm AND maintain contact on her shoulder with my right hand until she's completed 180 degrees of her turn and do the 'polish the halo/wipe the inside of the bowl/whatever you call it' with the left hand. with a really experienced partner i can drop her right hand and just do a slight rolling action with my right palm as she steps forward with her left foot and she'll go into a free right turn.

[johnnywalker]

Hi
I'm only new new here but after reading through the threads for the past couple of weeks I decided to sign up and join in the fun. Anyway, i'd like to think i'm a typical Aussie male; the difference being that I love dancing (ballroom, salsa, swing...you name it). I've been dancing for approx. 5 years now and enjoy it immensely. Not realy that good but i'm in it for fun. However, when I first told friends of my intention, quite a number looked at me strangely or made some unpleasant remarks such as 'that's so gay' etc. These type of comments even came from some female acquaintances. Anyway, I didn't care for their opinions (i'm a little arrogant that way; if I want to do something, which isn't harmful, i'll do it) and into dancing I plunged. Although now some friends have become a little enlightened I still come across so many so called 'blokes' who would never think of trying it. Just recently a new guy at work laughed at me when he found out. But I still don't care. I enjoy it and also enjoy so many other activities. They never tease me about doing martial arts but then I guess that's perceived as being 'cool'. To me it's all movement and that's what I love; the liberation in motion. Most guys i've spoken to about dancing give me the impression they're inhibited and fear being perceived as someone other than one of the guys. No thanks, i'd rather be happy on the dance floor (preferably surrounded by women) than to look like a moron on the edge of it faking masculinity.
BTW - Great forum :D

[pygmalion]

Welcome johnnywalker! :D

Yes. I've often had the impression that a lot of guys do want to try it -- they're just afraid of how their friends will perceive them. I'm a little surprised that women would make negative remarks to you, though. Most of the women I've met are just glad to have a dancing guy around.

Glad you're having fun! :D

[Vin]

I agree that it can be difficult for a follow to teach a lead.
However you should still be able to teach a lead the basic and how to lead a couple of turns. Enough to get anyone started. I learned alot through videos and with the help of a female friend.

[KevinL]

Welcome to the forums Johhnywalker!

[Genesius Redux]

Hi everyone--I'm new to the site, and I usually like to lurk for a bit--but I had to laugh when I read some of these posts.

Good Lord, as if growing up as an actor and musician wasn't enough--I wouldn't have been caught dead going to dance class. You know, it's not that easy being a boy, and where I grew up in NY if you wanted to dance you'd better know how to fight too....

Much of growing up as a boy involves avoiding dance--if you're always in a show, you never have time to attend school dances anyway, and if you find yourself on the other side of the bandstand--musicians have a very convenient excuse not to dance. Even grown up, finding guys who will bother to learn to dance is hard--usually only married guys who decide to do something with their spouse.

On the other hand, I have to say, finding women who *actually* dance is not an easy task either. I have many friends who are relatively young, unattached actresses--and getting them to go out even social dancing for a night is like pulling teeth. And there doesn't seem to be a lot of interest in taking the time to really learn, like everything else. Women are maybe less repressed than men in being willing to attempt something on the floor, but finding someone, anyone outside of studios and competitions--man or woman--who can lead/follow is like stumbling onto El Dorado after hacking through jungle foliage for weeks and months.

So, I'm sorry that the gals are having a hard time finding guys in the club scene who dance--but it's not easy from the other side of the gender divide either, though I imagine I'm going to hear a veritable orchestra of the world's smallest cyber violins playing a sad song....

Cheers,

Genesius

[pygmalion]

Hehe! Another of life's great mysteries solved. That explains why my musician guy friends always wanted to play the big, burly instrucments (like trombone). That way, they could beat up the bullies on the way home. LOL.

Good point about dancing on either side of the gender divide, Genesius. There aren't exactly tons of women out the who are great dancers, either. This particular board is a little... Okay a lot skewed in favor of dancers. But if you go out to a nightclub, you'll see many weird gyrations in the name of dancing, but, often, dancing it ain't.

btw. Love your signature line. Shakespeare? Other?

[pygmalion]

Uh oh. Better post a disclaimer. There are many, many salsa addicts on this board. LOL. If you go to a top 40, pop-type, dance club, you'll see many weird gyrations ... etc.

If you go to a salsa club, you'll likely see some good dancing. :wink: 8)

[Genesius Redux]

Hehe! Another of life's great mysteries solved. That explains why my musician guy friends always wanted to play the big, burly instrucments (like trombone). That way, they could beat up the bullies on the way home. LOL.

Good point about dancing on either side of the gender divide, Genesius. There aren't exactly tons of women out the who are great dancers, either. This particular board is a little... Okay a lot skewed in favor of dancers. But if you go out to a nightclub, you'll see many weird gyrations in the name of dancing, but, often, dancing it ain't.

btw. Love your signature line. Shakespeare? Other?

Funny you should mention the trombone, because that is in fact my axe of choice--although for a long time I tried to play in the sensitive ballad-style of the 30s and 40s before I grew up and gave myself over to a burly be-bop style masculinity. :wink:

Signature line is from "Twelfth Night" (I. iii. 112-116). I'm glad it appealed to your classical soul, since your handle comes either from Ovid or Shaw. Or is it by way of Lerner and Lowe?

Cheers,

Genesius

[Christina75]

As for the top-40, pop style dance clubs, a guy I knew called that "cheese dancing" lol He would go swing dancing or salsa dancing several nights a week and then declare that he needed a break and was going cheese dancing. :D

And as for the lack of guys dancing, a sad time in my dance life was when I was swing dancing. There had been a few dozen of us "old regulars" who had been dancing together for quite some time, mostly a balance of guys and girls. Eventually the scene became more popular and unfortunately the new dancers were more girls than guys. My long time dance partners began to have to tell myself and the other girls to "take a number". One guy literally kept a list in his pocket of dances he had promised. Occasionally feelings would get hurt over broken promises and missed dances. (there's only so many songs in a night) I know the guys couldn't help it really and I was happy that dancing was becoming so popular but it did make me miss the way it had been, you know?

Some of the girls did learn to lead pretty well and we sometimes danced with each other. In my case, this dancing situation allowed me to be bold and forward. I would get up my nerve and approach some guy who was leaning against the bar and watching. I would look for the guy who looked like he might really want to dance but for some reason wasn't. (curious but cautious) I wasn't a great teacher for those who didn't know how to dance and sometimes I would get refused but other times I would find a diamond in the rough. Now if I could just learn to be forward in the rest of my life :oops:

Christina
p.s. I like JohnnyWalker's name :D welcome!
p.p.s. why are my posts always so long?

[Christina75]

finding someone, anyone outside of studios and competitions--man or woman--who can lead/follow is like stumbling onto El Dorado after hacking through jungle foliage for weeks and months.

lol! amen! If I hear a hint of a guy who might be even interested in dancing (even if he's never had a lesson) I swear I hear the chorus of hallelujah angels. Gotta love living in a small town. :)

Christina

[pygmalion]

Funny you should mention the trombone, because that is in fact my axe of choice--although for a long time I tried to play in the sensitive ballad-style of the 30s and 40s before I grew up and gave myself over to a burly be-bop style masculinity. :wink:

For some reason, trombone and trumpet were considered macho enough for the guys to get away with it. The poor guys who played flute ... it was sad indeed. :lol: :wink:

Signature line is from "Twelfth Night" (I. iii. 112-116). I'm glad it appealed to your classical soul, since your handle comes either from Ovid or Shaw. Or is it by way of Lerner and Lowe?
I guess it would have to be Lerner and Lowe. I saw My Fair Lady first, and Pygmalion several years later.

[tsb]

for those of you who've seen "shall we dance". the premise for the secrecy was that mainstream japanese culture assumed that guys who pursued ballroom dance were somehow... a little "off" (although in aoki's case that was probably on the mark).

[Genesius Redux]

For some reason, trombone and trumpet were considered macho enough for the guys to get away with it. The poor guys who played flute ... it was sad indeed. :lol: :wink:

Unless the flute guys hid it away in their bari or tenor case. Or learned to play like Ian Anderson.... 8)

But I don't know how macho the trombone looked--it sure felt dorky and awkward on the bus. I feel a lot more like a guy now that I can dance bolero! :wink:

[pygmalion]

Then it's obvious you know nothing of my high school heart throb Anthony, the trombone player. Ahhh. I swoon just thinking about him. He was no dork. He was a hottie ... With swollen, kissable lips. :oops: :lol: The trombone guys and trumpet guys were the best of the bunch. I stayed away from the violin and flute guys ... even though I played both. Gotta have a brass player, myself. LOL. :lol: :lol: (either that, or piano)

[Genesius Redux]

Then it's obvious you know nothing of my high school heart throb Anthony, the trombone player. Ahhh. I swoon just thinking about him. He was no dork. He was a hottie ... With swollen, kissable lips. :oops: :lol: The trombone guys and trumpet guys were the best of the bunch. I stayed away from the violin and flute guys ... even though I played both. Gotta have a brass player, myself. LOL. :lol: :lol: (either that, or piano)

Well, yes, you do have to have the embouchure for that upper register--but IMO the real test of kissability would have to be a rich lower and middle register--don't waste your time with the guy who never dips below middle C, and demand nothing less than a two and a half octave working range--3 or more is even better!

At the risk of being accused of shameless e-flirtation, my first sweetheart was a flute player as well--as were three of my later girlfriends. In those days, though, to get semi-back on topic, we didn't dance. The byword was disco sucks, but it was all around us, especially for musicians. Maynard was the man, and he was putting everything to disco--Rocky, Star Trek, "Maria" (from West Side Story), Scheherezade (yes, Rimsky-Korsakoff to disco, I kid you not!), and the tenor aria "Vesti la giubba" from "Pagliacci." Amid such commercial absurdity, how could one face the music and dance?

I will, however, admit thus much--I brought in some old Maynard the other day for my dance teacher, when she wanted to do some hustle. She was dying when she heard the disco percussion and the cheesy vocals. David Hamilton was in the studio that day, and when he heard the "Theme from Rocky," he burst into laughter, and said he remembered doing his audition for the high school cheerleading squad to Maynard's version of the song....

Cheers,

Genesius

[salsachinita]

Then it's obvious you know nothing of my high school heart throb Anthony, the trombone player. Ahhh. I swoon just thinking about him.

I LOVE saxaphone & trumpet players myself :D ! For some reason I go weak at the knees when they do a solo during a descarga....... :P

My one true crush (we ALL have one, right, girls :wink: ?) is a saxaphone player........in his presence I turned from a dignified salsera into a hoplessly besotted teenage groupie :roll: .........

(ok, that was years ago....but parts of us never grow up...!)

[salsachinita]

And as for the lack of guys dancing, a sad time in my dance life was when I was swing dancing. There had been a few dozen of us "old regulars" who had been dancing together for quite some time, mostly a balance of guys and girls. Eventually the scene became more popular and unfortunately the new dancers were more girls than guys. My long time dance partners began to have to tell myself and the other girls to "take a number". One guy literally kept a list in his pocket of dances he had promised. Occasionally feelings would get hurt over broken promises and missed dances. (there's only so many songs in a night) I know the guys couldn't help it really and I was happy that dancing was becoming so popular but it did make me miss the way it had been, you know?

I do. I know EXACTLY what you are talking about. Change the word 'swing' to 'salsa' and that'd be my story.

I would get up my nerve and approach some guy who was leaning against the bar and watching. I would look for the guy who looked like he might really want to dance but for some reason wasn't. (curious but cautious) I wasn't a great teacher for those who didn't know how to dance and sometimes I would get refused but other times I would find a diamond in the rough. Now if I could just learn to be forward in the rest of my life :oops:

:shock: SEE...!!?? All you guys out there, see what we girls go through to get you guys onto the dancefloor....?

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[danceguy]

Hmm, I think another thing that really scares the guys away from dancing is the men that are more experienced, the "wolf/shark pack" that are there to descend upon the women and show off how big their ego's are...err I mean their well polished dance skills. :roll:

I was talking with one of my teachers a while ago about this...that a newbie a guy (especially a shy one like I used to be) will get a lot of "sympathy dances" at first. But after a while, you gotta start asking and as soon as you become somewhat proficient...you are competition for those wolves and sharks. I watch what these guys are doing when I'm looking to ask a lady to dance, and sometimes you gotta be quick to get there first. You snooze, you lose in most cases. :P

I saw it happen tonight...and man I swear its almost as bad as watching animals on the Discovery Channel. Right at the start of the dance a guy I've seen many times before just beelined for the youngest, prettiest girl at the dance and then danced with her many times...showing her the dances and using every oppotunity to place his hands on her for some mild groping. Doesn't matter the venue...these guys are everywhere.

I have promised myself that if I ever become a really good dancer, that I will not be like this. I like to dance with beginners...but not in a sleazy way like that. Just not my style.

Back when I was a total novice these guys used to intimidate the hell out of me. Now, I actually find it kind of funny! :D

So, don't let em' get to you guys...get out there and ask those ladies to dance! :wink:

SG

[voilsb]

:shock: SEE...!!?? All you guys out there, see what we girls go through to get you guys onto the dancefloor....?Lead-heavy scene! Hello? Why don't you ladies come here, where the boys are plentiful? Turn it into this: :ladiesma:

[MacMoto]

I would get up my nerve and approach some guy who was leaning against the bar and watching. I would look for the guy who looked like he might really want to dance but for some reason wasn't. (curious but cautious) I wasn't a great teacher for those who didn't know how to dance and sometimes I would get refused but other times I would find a diamond in the rough.

Same here! This has become my mission; when a song starts and nobody asks me to dance, I make for any guy looking at the dancefloor and beg him to get up and dance with me on the assumption that

1. He's come to a dance (in my case salsa) venue, so he cannot be totally uninterested, right?
2. He's a man, of course he'll be flattered by the fact that a young woman wants to spend the next 4 minutes with him. :lol:

If he knows the mambo step (i.e., been to a class before), I let him lead -- if he doesn't know anything other than the basic step, that's fine by me. If he's never danced salsa before, I show him the basic step (I'm a lousy teacher and that's the only thing I can teach :oops:). The emphasis is always on fun ("don't worry if you screw up, just listen to the music and move with it :) "), in the hope that the experience is pleasant enough for the guy to decide to take up lessons... We always need more men in our scene!

Lead-heavy scene!
I thought such a thing only existed in my dreams...

[tsb]

Well, yes, you do have to have the embouchure for that upper register--but IMO the real test of kissability would have to be a rich lower and middle register--don't waste your time with the guy who never dips below middle C, and demand nothing less than a two and a half octave working range--3 or more is even better!


yes! pedal b flat!

(tuba/trombone/baritone horn)

(and violin/viola/piano/guitar/bass guitar/alto sax)


Maynard was the man

no doubt! give it one/chameleon/birdand/shaft/the theme from star trek/ the list goes on...

he gave a seminar at my high school. some poor schlub asked him "how do you play so high?" not to be outdone in schlubness, his response was: "just put your lips together and blow."

[Genesius Redux]

Maynard was the man

no doubt! give it one/chameleon/birdand/shaft/the theme from star trek/ the list goes on...

he gave a seminar at my high school. some poor schlub asked him "how do you play so high?" not to be outdone in schlubness, his response was: "just put your lips together and blow."

That would be Maynard lol! Though there was an intersting tune by Louis Prima years earlier that did the same thing. It was called "The Lip" and it's on his album "The Wildest." I don't know if you know Prima--like Maynard he was a huge popularizer who surrounded himself with some of the best sidemen in the biz. Most dancers know Prima because of "Shake, Rattle, and Roll." But I first discovered him because my favorite Disney movie of all time was "The Jungle Book," in which Prima did the voice of King Louie, singing "Oobie doo! I wanna be like you-hoo-hoo...." And yes, I wanted to be like him-im-im. 8)

[Vin]

I also live in a lead heavy scene. More often than the other way around in my area you will see two guys dancing together. Last night at a small(break time) salsa gathering stats-
5-8 leads
1-3 follows
Of course when we get alot of new beginners it turns around a bit, but only for a short time. The good female dancers hate it because they never get to learn how to lead :D .

[danceguy]

My one true crush (we ALL have one, right, girls ?) is a saxaphone player........in his presence I turned from a dignified salsera into a hoplessly besotted teenage groupie .........

Yikes, did I tell you I used to play the sax? My chops are pretty rusty but I can still play ok...its been a while though.

I never could get into playing a flute...it just didn't have the same feel as a bari or tenor sax that belted out some serious sound. I used to play a little trombone, but I was never very good at it. Of course, my friends who played the t-bone just loved to put strings on their spit valves so they could nail us sax players in the front row. Jerks. :)

SG

[NeoDevin]

I play the flute and the piccolo... there's just something about the sound... seems much more emotional to me than any other instrument I've heard.

[cupojoe2]

I also live in a lead heavy scene. More often than the other way around in my area you will see two guys dancing together. Last night at a small(break time) salsa gathering stats-
5-8 leads
1-3 follows
.

:idea: It sounds like a few of us located in lead heavy areas need to move to Australia, Scotland or - if it wouldn’t be stepping on TSB’s toes - Pasadena 8).

...it also sounds like I should take up playing the sax... :wink:

[tsb]

Yikes, did I tell you I used to play the sax? My chops are pretty rusty but I can still play ok...its been a while though.
I never could get into playing a flute...it just didn't have the same feel as a bari or tenor sax that belted out some serious sound. I used to play a little trombone, but I was never very good at it.

brass and woodwind embouchres are almost mutually exclusive. after playing low brass (tuba, trombone, baritone horn) for over 20 years i started alto sax. for a while i had to play with a '4' reed just to get my chops tired enough to loosen up (then i'd switch to a 1) to get a decently silky tone.

Of course, my friends who played the t-bone just loved to put strings on their spit valves so they could nail us sax players in the front row. Jerks. :)


i've never seen that. good idea! our way of retatliating at hecklers while in marching band (especially when away at michigan state & ohio state - i went to michigan) was emptying our third valves in their general direction.

[tsb]

It sounds like a few of us located in lead heavy areas need to move to Australia, Scotland or - if it wouldn’t be stepping on TSB’s toes - Pasadena 8).


LOL. you mean i'm going to need to start marking my territory?! :shock:

seriously, if you're talking salsa scene, it's probably as lead heavy as anywhere else. ballroom is another matter. last night there were plenty to go around - i had four ladies show up (when i was expecting one)!

[danceguy]

brass and woodwind embouchres are almost mutually exclusive. after playing low brass (tuba, trombone, baritone horn) for over 20 years i started alto sax. for a while i had to play with a '4' reed just to get my chops tired enough to loosen up (then i'd switch to a 1) to get a decently silky tone.

Cool. Alto was my first sax and was my fav till I picked up Tenor...this old jazz cat that I used to practice with told me one day "Hate to tell you this, but with the way you blow, you're a tenor man. Stop playing that Alto!" Needless to say, he was right. :)

What kind of reeds do you use? Funny...I started with Rico...then went to every brand under the sun (Vandoren Javas come to mind)...then eventually I went back to Ricos...the really cheap ones. Best sound I ever had was on those...once I knew how to pick the good ones out of the box. ;)

i've never seen that. good idea! our way of retatliating at hecklers while in marching band (especially when away at michigan state & ohio state - i went to michigan) was emptying our third valves in their general direction

Uh...marching band...part of my life I'd rather forget! There was one guy that used to do this all the time...or he'd get all the bone players to shoot their valves at us...the only thing I could do to relatiate was to turn the bell of my sax upside down and dump it on some unsuspecting sap. :D

Man I'm glad those days are far behind me...;)

[delamusica]

brass and woodwind embouchres are almost mutually exclusive.

Mind if I disagree? I'm a professional orchestral flutist, and I've played tuba and euphonium in my high school and college ensembles with no problem! The trick is just to practice them both equally so that all of the muscles get trained correctly.

[mhgroove]

[quote="borikensalsero"]I say blame it on rock and roll. :tongue:

I agree with Boriken on this one. But..I would add R&B and Hip-Hop to that list as well. Most of American music doesn't emphasize partner dancing. Think about it...pop, disco, jazz..etc you don't dance to these types of music with your partner. Most of our popular music is very individualistic. I know there's C&W, ECS, WCS, Ballroom that is partner-oriented dancing. Growing up in Florida...I learned how to dance from R&B, Disco, and Pop. I didn't learn how to dance with a woman until I learned salsa. I still have a long way to go..but I must I'm glad I took lessons 2 years ago, it has made a big difference in my life.

Now, why guys don't dance? Well..I'm going to be politically incorrect...actually culturally incorrect. I have friends from all ethnicities and I've notice most white American men don't dance when they go out to nightclub unless it's C&W or Top 40. Personally, I can't go out to a nightclub to just drink and shoot the breeze with folks. I need to dance...to relieve the stress of being a mortgage loan officer(I love my job..but it can be stressful). Most black American men(I'm black) will dance when they go out to a nightclub..but it's dancing to R&B, Hip-Hop, or Top 40. And that type of dancing is more about the individual than partner-dancing. Also, the Hispanic men do dance..but here in Texas is more Tejano, C&W, than Salsa. So I truly do believe it is a cultural thing here in America. I know there are exceptions to every generalization..but this is what I've seen when I'm out dancing.

[Genesius Redux]

brass and woodwind embouchres are almost mutually exclusive.

Mind if I disagree? I'm a professional orchestral flutist, and I've played tuba and euphonium in my high school and college ensembles with no problem! The trick is just to practice them both equally so that all of the muscles get trained correctly.

Originally, this was all about kissability--and I believe that it had been suggested that we brass players were more kissable than reed-men, b/c of the way we use our lips. Now that's the closest thing to a nice compliment of that sort that I've gotten in a while, and I don't know about the rest of y'all, but I'm printing it off so I can show it to people! :wink:

It had also been suggested that we were just generally hotter and more masculine. So I'm going to go with that too, instead of remembering the many years I spent trying to cruise chicks with my lovely horn playing--and getting many compliments. On my horn playing. I remember one flute player in particular I was just dying to ask out; in my year book she writes how much she's always loved my trombone playing and valued my friendship. Shoot, I shoulda been working on my dancing!

[pygmalion]

Let me just say for the record that brass players ARE mucho kissable. Don't ask me how I know. Just trust me. I know. LOL.

[tsb]

brass and woodwind embouchres are almost mutually exclusive.

Mind if I disagree? I'm a professional orchestral flutist, and I've played tuba and euphonium in my high school and college ensembles with no problem! The trick is just to practice them both equally so that all of the muscles get trained correctly.

good point. it would have been much more acccurate for me to say that i found it exceedingly difficult to unlearn about 20 years of muscle memory. given the difficulty i had with sax, there's no way i could imagine trying to play a flute.

[tsb]

brass and woodwind embouchres are almost mutually exclusive. after playing low brass (tuba, trombone, baritone horn) for over 20 years i started alto sax. for a while i had to play with a '4' reed just to get my chops tired enough to loosen up (then i'd switch to a 1) to get a decently silky tone.

Cool. Alto was my first sax and was my fav till I picked up Tenor...this old jazz cat that I used to practice with told me one day "Hate to tell you this, but with the way you blow, you're a tenor man. Stop playing that Alto!" Needless to say, he was right. :)


i regret not starting on tenor. i kinda like the ben webster kinda feathery kind of tone vs. R&B honk though.


What kind of reeds do you use? Funny...I started with Rico...then went to every brand under the sun (Vandoren Javas come to mind)...then eventually I went back to Ricos...the really cheap ones. Best sound I ever had was on those...once I knew how to pick the good ones out of the box. ;)


rico jazz nowadays. and i've got a pile of old ricos i want to try and shave to see what (if anything) i can do to their sound.

trying to find the perfect reed - that'll only last for so many hours anyway!

i'm much more inclined to annoy the neighbors with my old baritone horn on holidays like july 4th.


i've never seen that. good idea! our way of retatliating at hecklers while in marching band (especially when away at michigan state & ohio state - i went to michigan) was emptying our third valves in their general direction

Uh...marching band...part of my life I'd rather forget! There was one guy that used to do this all the time...or he'd get all the bone players to shoot their valves at us...the only thing I could do to relatiate was to turn the bell of my sax upside down and dump it on some unsuspecting sap. :D

Man I'm glad those days are far behind me...;)

i had more fun in drum & bugle corps. low brass players are definitely capable of twisted behavior.

[dirty_hound]

As a non-dancing New Zealand male, I find all lot of what being said here to be serious generalisations and mis-truths. Since most of the guys responding are guys that enjoy dancing, it makes it hard for them to truly understand why the rest of us don't dance.

My friends and I who don't dance, don't because we fail to find the enjoyment that females and the small selection of guys (perhaps these guys are more in touch with their feminine side). We are not likely to participate in an activity we don't enjoy and the sooner females realise this, the sooner there will be harmony in the universe. Our female "dancing" friends/girlfriends understand that we don't enjoy it, don't force us to and tend to paticipate with us in activities that we all enjoy like a good game of pool. They also know that we will go dancing with them on special occasions as we are not self-centered and will put our feelings aside just so that they can partake in an activity they enjoy.

[pygmalion]

Understood, dirty_hound. You don't enjoy dancing. No problem. 8)

And yes. This is a dance website, so both men and women here are skewed toward dance insanity. We can't help it.

But here's a thought for you. Dancing with your wife/girlfriend will earn you brownie points like you never imagined possible. (Um. Brownie points, in case you don't know American slang, means bonus special treatment.) Your wife or girlfriend will appreciate your willingness to take her dancing. Think about it. Isn't it worth a try? :wink: :lol:

[mhgroove]

As a non-dancing New Zealand male, I find all lot of what being said here to be serious generalisations and mis-truths. Since most of the guys responding are guys that enjoy dancing, it makes it hard for them to truly understand why the rest of us don't dance.

My friends and I who don't dance, don't because we fail to find the enjoyment that females and the small selection of guys (perhaps these guys are more in touch with their feminine side). We are not likely to participate in an activity we don't enjoy and the sooner females realise this, the sooner there will be harmony in the universe. Our female "dancing" friends/girlfriends understand that we don't enjoy it, don't force us to and tend to paticipate with us in activities that we all enjoy like a good game of pool. They also know that we will go dancing with them on special occasions as we are not self-centered and will put our feelings aside just so that they can partake in an activity they enjoy.



Dirty_hound,

With all due of respect...I almost jumped out of my seat when I read that guys who dance are more in touch with their feminine side.

For me, there has been anything more masculine..then dancing salsa with a woman. I hate that this perception exist. You can't be wimpy or feminine dancing salsa or you won't get to dance much. Period!!!

I'm a Christian and in scripture, men & women danced to celebrate the events in their lives(Luke 15:24-25). So dancing has always existed for both sexes. I usually refrain from bringing my Christianity to this forum..but I have to challenge this perception that men who dance are less masculine then men who don't dance.

[Warren J. Dew]

Groove,

Please don't disabuse hound of his misconceptions. The male ballroom dancers' conspiracy has worked very hard to get those misconceptions out there to limit the number of men who dance. We like getting the first pick of the women, and we'd just as soon not share that with any more men than we have to.

[tacad]

Wow! Definitely got to read this thread. In the meantime I may as well put in my two cents since I missed this one. I agree with dirty_hound. Guys don't dance because they don't get it. No clue as to why you would want to dance. In fact dirty_hound sounds like a capital guy being willing to dance with a friend so she has a good time. It's not like guys are on the sidelines feeling afraid of dancing, or unable to express themselves. Grinding of course is an obvious exception I would think. Hip hop may be too I don't know. If dancing is in the culture then guys are raised with it and they do get it then. Like hip hop among teens or salsa in latin countries (or cumbia or whatever). Of course in these cultures a guy dancing is very masculine. But I guess our culture doesn't get it.

EDIT: Hmmm. That sounded more combative than I meant it to. I just got in after driving on the freeway for an hour. I must still have road rage or something. I agree with you pygmalion, that guys earn major brownie points with their ladies for taking them dancing. One dancer I knew said that a woman will put up with a lot if you take her dancing twice a month. A female friend present wholoheartedly agreed with that.

Ok, lots of smiles and good thoughts, no combatants here! :D :D :D :D :D :D

[DWise1]

My friends and I who don't dance, don't because we fail to find the enjoyment that females and the small selection of guys (perhaps these guys are more in touch with their feminine side).
Actually, guys dance in order to get in touch with her feminine side. And back. Of course, if you believe that having physical contact with a woman is not manly, well then de gustibus non disputandum est ("there's no accounting for taste").

Having spent the first 48 years of my life not dancing, I can recall that the reason I didn't dance was because I had absolutely no idea how to and I remember the terrifying feeling of being totally lost when I would try.

[motardmom]

I haven't read this entire thread, so perhaps this has already been touched on...?

I was wondering if perhaps a preference to watch may stem from the tendency for men to enjoy visual stimulation...? Not in all cases, of course, but perhaps there is a segment of men who would rather just watch the show...

It still seems like it would be more fun to be visually stimulated up close where you get to actually touch a little bit too, but to each their own, I suppose.

[blue]

edit Goodness, now I see I this thread has pages and pages... probably all this has already been said. Blasted, I don't erase my post. If it don't contain anything new, just skim through it.


I met a guy at a class who had been dancing for a year, but could not keep the beat to save his life. He asked me to count for him to get started on the right beat, and I did that. Still, he just could not keep the tempo of the song... this is an impossible situation, because the roles demands that he is in charge. If I keep the beat, then I am backleading. I refused to do it, and I am not sure if he thought I was a very bad dancer or simply cruel to him... Had he been a woman, this would not have been the same problem. If I had been the leader and him the follow, we would have danced along just fine! Sometimes, I am surprised that the excess of women in partner dancing is not bigger.


I started dancing at a dance camp, where they gave a beginner's course. Before that, I had only take three classes. Most of us women did some dancing in the evenings - some more, some less. I guess most of us found one or two leaders we felt we could ask once or twice each night, and who happily danced with us sharing their drug with us and helping us getting hooked on it. (Let's forget about those who did dance with us but in such a way they made sure we did not ask them again.) Most of the men in our beginner's group did not dance in the evenings - almost only those who already were able dancers in other types of dances did even go there.


Before starting partner dancing, my stereotype image of it was it was the man's market to make his choice - humiliating for the women who do not get picked. Now, I think of the dance situation as so much more tough for the men than for the women - in each moment they risk a lot more. Indeed, both men and women ask in my nicks of the woods - I am not sure this is the whole difference though.


Why men won't dance - the complete and true story :mrgreen:

* When they are young, dancing is not seen as something manly.

* Most men have less average control over their bodies than most women. They are afraid of looking silly - indeed most of us do when we first try.

* The leader's part is much more difficult than the followers - esp. in the beginning. Alas, we ask more of the poor bastards than of the women.

* The game of dancing contains a fair amount of wanting to impress your partner, and much more so for the leader as it is him who takes the follower for a ride. If you don't think you will ever manage to be impressive, you probably won't even try. The ladies really don't need to be impressive. A nice smile and/or a nice cleavage gets you far. Men do usually not have this possibility. (I know a newbie leader who gets along fine with a smiling, talking and doing what he knows - but I see him as an exception. Most men who do start dancing don't have the nerve, but go to classes "until they dance good enough" and if they stay in their classes forever, they never will be. Or, they stand around the walls not daring to approach the ladies.)

* Partner dancing involves being physically close to persons of the opposite sex that you don't know. This takes a while to learn to handle - probably more for men. Probably one only really get past this one after one truly has felt the joy of dancing - and this takes a little skill.

[blue]

Although this is in the Ballroom section, the discussion har turned pretty general. This link has been before, but find it highly relevant here: Lloyd Nicholas's Why Men Won't Dance (http://www.staff.ncl.ac.uk/nikolas.lloyd/evolve/menwont.html)
It is a fun theory, although I do not believe it for a minute.

[Flat Shoes]

Any special reason this thread is in Ballroom? Is the question why men don't do ballroom dance, or why they don't dance in general?

I'll go for the last, and add my two bits from my experience dancing mainly Lindy Hop and a little bit of Argentine Tango. My experience is that people in general don't dance. And among those who do, men are almost just as plenty as women.

In beginner classes, there seems to be some more women than men, but this evens out. And among those who dance regularly, there are just as many men as women. And actually, I've been to several Tango Lessons where women were in short order.

But this is, as I said, Tango and Lindy.

When it comes to dances like Salsa and generally shaking it to disco music, women seems to be in the majority.

I think the reason for this difference are two twings. Women seems in general to be more inclined (genetically or socially) to move to music and dance. And women seems to more often follow trends, and Salsa is a trend right now. But when dance becomes a thing of serious interest, it evens out.

[tanzsegler]

Why don't guy's dance? Honey, you need to take a trip to Seattle WA USA, where there are 2 or 3 times as many leads as follows.

[MacMoto]

Why don't guy's dance? Honey, you need to take a trip to Seattle WA USA, where there are 2 or 3 times as many leads as follows.
:!: :D Now I have one more reason why I should visit my cousin in Seattle as soon as possible! Does this also apply to salsa?

[amrimi]

I took up ballroom dancing when I was 12 years old. At the time my little brother was 5. Back than everything is big sister did was very cool and so he started dancing to and he really enjoyed it to. But then he started school, as soon as the other boys found out about it, they started to call him sissy. So that was the end of dancing for him. Evenso he is grown up now, he couldn't be convinced to try it can. The last time i tried to persuade him to take up some dancing he told me he can't start dancing, since he is a man and men don't dance.

I really think it is a cultural thing. After having not danced for several years, I started to do salsa about three years ago. In most salsa venues here there are about an equal number of leads and followers. Only while the followers are mostly german women, most of the leads are either latinos or africans with only a few germans. Furthermore, the german leads get rejected more often when they ask for a dance ( I have to admit I do that to) because they don't seem to be able to get the right connection to music ( of course exceptions prove the rule).

[mamboqueen]

I think if they changed the word "dancing" to something like "floor engineering to music", a lot more men would get involved. After having read this message board for over 6 months, I get a sense that many men look at dance, steps, patterns and technique in mathematical (geometrical?) terms. It's very interesting.

[MacMoto]

This link has been before, but find it highly relevant here: Lloyd Nicholas's Why Men Won't Dance (http://www.staff.ncl.ac.uk/nikolas.lloyd/evolve/menwont.html)
It is a fun theory, although I do not believe it for a minute.
I, on the other hand, think he's on to something here...

This, in particular, caught my attention:
Women seem to get an innate joy from moving to music, like those women dancing round their handbags at the night club. Men by contrast, seem to get joy from dancing well, but not nearly so much from the mere act of dancing.
Over-generalisation, of course, but I certainly see these tendencies... The article basically goes on to say that, as the flip-side of this, men have an in-built terror of dancing badly, which is why men don't dance.

What do you guys (and gals) think?

[Sagitta]

This link has been before, but find it highly relevant here: Lloyd Nicholas's Why Men Won't Dance (http://www.staff.ncl.ac.uk/nikolas.lloyd/evolve/menwont.html)
It is a fun theory, although I do not believe it for a minute.
I, on the other hand, think he's on to something here...

This, in particular, caught my attention:
Women seem to get an innate joy from moving to music, like those women dancing round their handbags at the night club. Men by contrast, seem to get joy from dancing well, but not nearly so much from the mere act of dancing.
Over-generalisation, of course, but I certainly see these tendencies... The article basically goes on to say that, as the flip-side of this, men have an in-built terror of dancing badly, which is why men don't dance.

What do you guys (and gals) think?

I get an inate joy from moving to the music, however, I do want to dance with someone otherwise I can do what I normally do at home and stay at home.

[Pacion]

Groove,

Please don't disabuse hound of his misconceptions. The male ballroom dancers' conspiracy has worked very hard to get those misconceptions out there to limit the number of men who dance. We like getting the first pick of the women, and we'd just as soon not share that with any more men than we have to.

:shock: ROTFL :lol: Warren, are you married or do you have a significant other? If not, would you mind if I proposed to you one leap year :wink: :lol:

One of the "encouraging" things a former dance teacher would say is that dance is one of the few activities where a man could touch/hold a woman on her back/waist and NOT fear getting smacked for doing so :lol: All the more reason for men taking up dancing. If said man is already in a relationship, then there is no need for him to be/want to take up dancing is there :? but then again, that might be a generalisation :wink:

Oh yes! The dance world is full of stories of guys who say they took up dancing because they wanted to impress a certain young lady and even though the friendship came to an end, they remember and are "grateful" to this certain young lady. Therefore, at the risk of making YET another generalisation, I think it could be suggested that a number of men take up dancing (that is, if they didn't grow up with it) for reasons connected to the ego more than their "feminine side" :?

We are not likely to participate in an activity we don't enjoy and the sooner females realise this, the sooner there will be harmony in the universe.

This may be a generalisation but it looks like the above comment could also be applied to... not taking out the garbage, not putting down the toilet seat and not putting the cap on the toothpaste... :roll: or am I being mischievous :wink: :lol:

[rails]

The article basically goes on to say that, as the flip-side of this, men have an in-built terror of dancing badly, which is why men don't dance.

What do you guys (and gals) think?

I think that's true. I like the example in the article:

If you ask a grandmother why she fell in love with her husband, the answer will often be that he was such a good dancer. Conversely, if you ask a grandfather, he is likely to say “Well, she was such a sweet little thing then. The prettiest girl in the room.” It is very rare for a man to fall in love with a woman just because she is a good dancer.

I think this is just as true today as it was then. The consequences of being a bad dancer are more serious for men than for women. Generally speaking.

[Pacion]

If you ask a grandmother why she fell in love with her husband, the answer will often be that he was such a good dancer. Conversely, if you ask a grandfather, he is likely to say “Well, she was such a sweet little thing then. The prettiest girl in the room.” It is very rare for a man to fall in love with a woman just because she is a good dancer.

I think this is just as true today as it was then. The consequences of being a bad dancer are more serious for men than for women. Generally speaking.

I also suspect that if you were to ask a grandfather what made him take up dancing in the first place (if he didn't not grow up with it), I have a feeling that he will say that he wanted to impress a sweet little thing, even if she was a few years old then him and or was his older sister's best friend. :wink:

[lim_96]

Hi, I just discovered this forum. Your question as to why there are so few men dance is only true for ballroom dance not disco. I think mainly because men doesn't want to deal with the pressure.

If you come to California, USA, you will find lots of men to dance with. :D

[tacad]

Hi lim_96. Welcome to the Dance-Forums. :D So I take it that you dance disco? I like to watch it but have a difficult time doing it.

[Sagitta]

Hi, I just discovered this forum. Your question as to why there are so few men dance is only true for ballroom dance not disco. I think mainly because men doesn't want to deal with the pressure.

If you come to California, USA, you will find lots of men to dance with. :D

Welcome lim_96. :)

[lim_96]

Hi Tacad,

I am not into disco. I only disco once in a long while. I actually just started to learn ballroom dance on and off about 3 years ago and enjoyed it very much. :shock:

I found ballroom dancing extremely challenging because as a guy you have to not only remembering the steps but you also have to lead and choreograph at the same time. What's worse is that the beat of the music does not seem to allow you time to do all that and look good while doing it. :headwall: I am not very good at it yet and still trying to learn when I have the time.

[Sonny]

I think most men donot dance because they are afraid of failure and rejection. Imagine getting on the floor trying to get to know a lady and thinking to yourself how bad, un-coordinated, unrythmic, etc. I look. Most men donot handle rejection and failure very well. Why risk it when you can be part of the majority of men who don't dance.

[mamboqueen]

...because the guys that can dance get all the girls!! :D

Seriously, men are not the only ones who have confidence issues. My teacher always tells me that his female students are incredibly hard on themselves, always finding something wrong with their dancing or their bodies. We are at an advantage because you guys have to do the leading, so your missteps are more apparent, for the most part.

If you truly enjoy doing it, keep at it. Like any other discipline, it just takes lots of time and practice (and a few bucks!).

Welcome to the forum!

[Sagitta]

What Mamboqueen says is true!!

And welcome to df Sonny. Glad to have you. :D

[Doug]

I think that I have commented on this before, but it bears saying again. In my experience, men seem to have a much harder time just getting the most basic steps. And so even men who do give dance a chance tend to become discourged sooner and drop out sooner than women. We teach Lindy & Balboa and begin every class with one or two songs of just basic footwork (& I do mean basic!) ala aerobics class. The men struggle a LOT more than the women and take weeks to get what the women seem to get in the first class or two.

[pygmalion]

Hmm. I wonder why, Doug. :?

[Sonny]

Let's see what response we get with this reason why most men don't dance.

Alot of ladies tend to change personality after you know them for while. For a man to learn to dance he has to spend quite some time with one in a difficult situation at best. Maybe most men don't dance because they can't or won't take the verbal punishment required to learn to dance. :roll: :shock: :(

[Sagitta]

Let's see what response we get with this reason why most men don't dance.

Alot of ladies tend to change personality after you know them for while. For a man to learn to dance he has to spend quite some time with one in a difficult situation at best. Maybe most men don't dance because they can't or won't take the verbal punishment required to learn to dance. :roll: :shock: :(

I just don't understand this. :?

Those whom I know are not like this at all.

[new-ish]

I started on vacation a couple of years ago. I was staying at the Club Med in Cancun Mexico and thought that the woman I was chasing said she was going to the ballroom latin class they had at the time.

She didn't show up, but I'm still taking lessons. :?

[dTas]

Let's see what response we get with this reason why most men don't dance.

Alot of ladies tend to change personality after you know them for while. For a man to learn to dance he has to spend quite some time with one in a difficult situation at best. Maybe most men don't dance because they can't or won't take the verbal punishment required to learn to dance. :roll: :shock: :(

nope... don't agree... this implies that you have to have the same dance partner for an extended amount of time in order to learn how to dance. that's the only way you're going to notice the change of personality.

i don't think its because of the personality changes but i do think there is some merrit to the "verbal punnishment". men has big soft egos and don't want to be embarrased, don't want to look stupid, don't want to feel clumsy. thus... they don't dance.

[tj]

Let's see what response we get with this reason why most men don't dance.

Alot of ladies tend to change personality after you know them for while. For a man to learn to dance he has to spend quite some time with one in a difficult situation at best. Maybe most men don't dance because they can't or won't take the verbal punishment required to learn to dance. :roll: :shock: :(

I'd put it this way - the initial learning curve for guys is daunting. Add in that students often beat each other up by pointing fingers and blaming... and well, it can frustrate guys to the point of quitting.

One solution is to find yourself fellow classmates/instructors/studios who will encourage you in your dancing rather than discourage you.

Everyone has a different way of learning. I'd recommend going to different places until you find yourself an environment which suits you best.

[blue]

Add in that students often beat each other up by pointing fingers and blaming... and well, it can frustrate guys to the point of quitting.

Both genders do this. I am very bad at taking it, too.

[tj]

Add in that students often beat each other up by pointing fingers and blaming... and well, it can frustrate guys to the point of quitting.

Both genders do this. I am very bad at taking it, too.

I remember when I was first learning to dance, that I was having problems getting the beat. After practicing it for a while, I felt like I was finally getting the hang of it, and what happens? The sister of the gal that I was dancing with started to critique both of us. I was like :cry: and my partner told me to not mind her sister cuz she's mean.

And yeah, looking back at it, it was kinda mean.

[dancin_feet]

Wow, this thread has taken on a life of it's own!

men has big soft egos and don't want to be embarrased, don't want to look stupid, don't want to feel clumsy. thus... they don't dance.

From when I originally posted this, we have had quite a few new guys walk through the door at our studio, so it's getting much better for leads. Though I do tend to think that dTas has the main reason. Maybe women can get over this feeling quicker than guys and that's why they stick with it?

Sure the learning curve is bigger for guys, having to learn the patterns and leads, but most women don't make them feel bad that they missed a lead (in my scene anyway). We only try to encourage so that they realise that this is a part of learning to dance.

I still don't know why guys don't dance, but a couple of us have been teaching each other how to lead, so it's less of a problem as when I first posted this thread!! :D

[DWise1]

men has big soft egos and don't want to be embarrased, don't want to look stupid, don't want to feel clumsy. thus... they don't dance.

Close, but I think it runs deeper than that. Dance is something that he's doing with a woman and for the woman's pleasure. If he can't do it right, then he's not pleasing her. It becomes a performance issue, kind of a fear of being exposed as being rhythmically impotent. Yeah, his ego's undoubtedly involved and feeling endangered, but by something worse than mere embarassment. It's being endangered by the inability to perform for a woman.

Yes, I've always felt above such petty ego issues; after 28 years of marriage to "The Spanish Inquisition", what ego could I possibly have left. But my social dancing has been in a horrendous slump for the better part of this year and as best as I can track down the cause, it was the look of disappointment in my partners' faces that had shaken my confidence so profoundly (these were girls I had known for a long time from class and who had advanced considerably and could not understand why I had not also advanced). Fear of embarassment is trivial compared to the fear of disappointing.

[dancin_feet]

Dance is something that he's doing with a woman and for the woman's pleasure.

I don't know if I see it that way. Sure, generally he leads, but it is not for his enjoyment as well? :?

[DWise1]

Dance is something that he's doing with a woman and for the woman's pleasure.

I don't know if I see it that way. Sure, generally he leads, but it is not for his enjoyment as well? :?

Yes, he does, once he has progressed to that point. But we're talking about the guys who are just starting out or even have not quite yet started. If the newbies are being recruited by the implied promise of women or more directly by their girlfriend or wife, then women's (or that particular woman's) appraisal of and reaction to their dancing ability will be seen as being important.

Of course after the guys start to enjoy the dancing itself, then his priorities can adjust accordingly.

[tacad]

It's being endangered by the inability to perform for a woman.
I think DWise1 is onto something here. If we can perform for a woman we think we are studs. If we cannot perform for a woman we think we are wusses. Yes this has a very direct R-rated analogy. Ironically as we have courage and go for it we start having successes most likely after a bunch of failures, are able to perform for women, start thinking we are studs, and can't wait to get out there and perform some more.

Ahem. :roll:

[dancin_feet]

Dance is something that he's doing with a woman and for the woman's pleasure.

I don't know if I see it that way. Sure, generally he leads, but it is not for his enjoyment as well? :?

Yes, he does, once he has progressed to that point. But we're talking about the guys who are just starting out or even have not quite yet started. If the newbies are being recruited by the implied promise of women or more directly by their girlfriend or wife, then women's (or that particular woman's) appraisal of and reaction to their dancing ability will be seen as being important.

Of course after the guys start to enjoy the dancing itself, then his priorities can adjust accordingly.

Ahhhh, understand you now!! I suppose with everything he has to learn, I guess it's not just for him, even if he has decided to learn of his own accord. I guess the trick is to keep them coming back during this "performance anxiety" time. A good looking female instructor or lighthearted feel to the lesson would help here I guess! :wink:

[DWise1]

Dance is something that he's doing with a woman and for the woman's pleasure.

I don't know if I see it that way. Sure, generally he leads, but it is not for his enjoyment as well? :?

Yes, he does, once he has progressed to that point. But we're talking about the guys who are just starting out or even have not quite yet started. If the newbies are being recruited by the implied promise of women or more directly by their girlfriend or wife, then women's (or that particular woman's) appraisal of and reaction to their dancing ability will be seen as being important.

Of course after the guys start to enjoy the dancing itself, then his priorities can adjust accordingly.

Ahhhh, understand you now!! I suppose with everything he has to learn, I guess it's not just for him, even if he has decided to learn of his own accord. I guess the trick is to keep them coming back during this "performance anxiety" time. A good looking female instructor or lighthearted feel to the lesson would help here I guess! :wink:

I dunno, a good looking female instructor would mean more pressure to perform, hence greater anxiety. BTW, did I ever mention that JLo was my salsa instructor; of course, that was John Lopez. [grin]

But seriously, I think that encouragement and positive reinforcement would go a lot further. Plus letting them know that all beginners go through the same problems they're having and mistakes they're making. And that those really great guys out there on the dance floor have years of experience.

As the song says, you can bet that he's doin' it for some doll. But there is a variety of detail in each guy's motivation. For example, there's one couple in my WCS classes (and formerly the Country classes) in which the guy's a beginner and having problems but he's really motivated. You see, this is his second marriage and his first wife kept telling him that he couldn't dance and could never learn to. So when she remarries, he is definitely going to dance at her wedding. Revenge is a dish best served in swing time!

In my own case, my main reason was so that my wife and I would have something to do together. But I was also very motivated to prove her and everybody else wrong who for the previous 30 years had pounded it into my head that I have absolutely no sense of rhythm nor could ever learn to dance. In a way, I kind of won my vindication in a class a year ago when we were shown a new step and I picked it up right away, leading on of my partners to tell me that I'm a natural-born dancer.

During that initial period, while proving everybody wrong was my motivation, I also went in with the attitude of laughing at myself, since I knew that I would make so many mistakes. By not taking myself too seriously, my ego was not at stake (what little was left of it). And since my background in aikido from years before gave me from the start both a sense of my own body position and movement and also a sense of connecting with my partner and affecting her body's movement, all my partners immediately gave me positive feedback on my strong and (relatively) smooth lead.

It's only been much later, especially as my marriage has been disintegrating in the past year, that my attention and motivation has been redirected to the actual three-minute relationships, wherein I've started to experience the performance anxiety that the other guys are hit with from the beginner (and of which we had been speaking). Too bad there aren't any blue pills for enhancing one's dancing performance.

[dTas]

i love this last tangent that DWise1 has taken us on ! ! !

now dance has evolved to the right of passage that men see as a means to procreate. to dance or not to dance... if i try it and fail then i will look like a fool in front of women and will not please her thus will not have the opportunity to spread my seed. :lol:

(sorry it just hit me funny like that :lol: :lol: )

[dancin_feet]

We have a stunning female instructor at our studio just started taking on students and private lessons in the last six months. The increase in the number of guys started around that time.

I'm not sure of her teaching methods as I've never taken a class with her, but from the outside looking in, she seems to keep it very lighthearted and pressure free. Dunno if it's that or the fact that she is an absolute stunner that keeps the guys coming back. I'm just thankful that she is there.

Of course all the instructors keep the lessons lighthearted and fun, or they probably wouldn't be teaching at our studio. But the male student population only started to noticebly increase when she started to take on new students.

Coincidence ....... maybe, maybe not!! :wink:

[DancePoet]

We have a stunning female instructor at our studio just started taking on students and private lessons in the last six months. The increase in the number of guys started around that time.

I'm not sure of her teaching methods as I've never taken a class with her, but from the outside looking in, she seems to keep it very lighthearted and pressure free. Dunno if it's that or the fact that she is an absolute stunner that keeps the guys coming back. I'm just thankful that she is there.

Of course all the instructors keep the lessons lighthearted and fun, or they probably wouldn't be teaching at our studio. But the male student population only started to noticebly increase when she started to take on new students.

Coincidence ....... maybe, maybe not!! :wink:

I just figured it was you, Dancin_feet, that was bringing them in. ;)

[dancin_feet]

I just figured it was you, Dancin_feet, that was bringing them in. ;)

You are so sweet, but no. Considering I started at the studio 12 months before she started to take on students, I think it has little to do with me!! Would be nice though ........ :lol:

[Sagitta]

I just figured it was you, Dancin_feet, that was bringing them in. ;)

You are so sweet, but no. Considering I started at the studio 12 months before she started to take on students, I think it has little to do with me!! Would be nice though ........ :lol: perhaps you suddenly started making a difference. One day you are a person-in-the-corner kind of person, and the next everyone is noticing you....

[dancin_feet]

Can I come and live with you guys????? :oops: :lol:

[DancePoet]

I just figured it was you, Dancin_feet, that was bringing them in. ;)

You are so sweet, but no. Considering I started at the studio 12 months before she started to take on students, I think it has little to do with me!! Would be nice though ........ :lol:

I'd say it just took awhile for the word to get around. ;)

[DancePoet]

Can I come and live with you guys????? :oops: :lol:

I suggest a visit first. Then if you decide you like one of us, sure! Maybe I'll even visit you! ;)

[Sagitta]

Can I come and live with you guys????? :oops: :lol:

I suggest a visit first. Then if you decide you like one of us, sure! Maybe I'll even visit you! ;)

Ditto!! :)

[Twilight_Elena]

I've been ballroom dancing since August with a friend of mine, and I've noticed this: Guys our age (17) would laugh at the idea of ballroom dancing, and practically everyone would say it's all for homsexual chaps. You know how it goes: they think "hip movement, elaborate hand technique... it MUST be gay!"
:P Does it sound as silly as it does to me?
Now, about guys that are in univ., I've only seen some that are dragged by their girlfriends, and only a handful of some that are doing it just for the fun of it. Older men are almost always with their wives.
There is an irritating portion of guys/men/boys/whatever who come because they want to get laid, and don't actually give a damn about dancing. Someone should tell them it's very bad form. :x
Anyways, men are generally too protective of their masculinity, as dancing has always been connected with women, at some level. It's like you can't find many male ballet dancers: the taboos surrounding it are discouraging.
My advice to all those male closet dancers out there: give it a try. Superstitions are challenges, and we must find the courage to fight them. And as a last resort, find a female friend of yours that's at the same level as you and go for it!

Elena

[etchuck]

Hi Twilight_Elena.

It's a difficult stereotype to get over, but once the guys see how hot some of the women they get to be close to are, they won't laugh so much.

[Sagitta]

All reasons why some guys don't do it. Welcome to df Elena. :)

[DL]

bump[

[wonderwoman]

Ah, the age old question... the eternal mystery. :)

[Chopin]

Ah, the age old question... the eternal mystery. :)

You go somewhere for 2 reasons:
1. - you have no choice
2. - all you friends are going there
3. - you are looking for new friends

1. In my case, I started to take dance lessons because I was in Grade 12 and I knew I will have to go to Prom and I would have to dance. Some guys go with their girlfriends to learn at least The 1-th dance during their wedding.
When you start, you will like dances you’ve already learned. I started with Waltz, Quickstep, Cha-Cha and Jive and I liked them the most and hated Tango Samba and Passo-Doble. Later when I learn them I started to like them.
So, if we want boys like dancing it has to be a compulsory dance program in schools (like in some countries (Russia in ex.).

2. Before that, if your parents are not taking you there, nobody will go to take any dance lessons, unless your friends will go there. Boys will follow their friends to the baseball, basketball or to the hockey ring. Because some parents take boys there (sport arenas) and girls to the ballet, more girls start dancing and their girlfriends follow them.
So it’s again mainly parent’s choice – where their kids will find new friends.

Girls are usually first asked to dance (by boys/ men) so they have no much choice – unless they want to be call rude, when they refuse. That way they start learning earlier and will develop the desire to learn dancing earlier.
At that point, boys are far behind them and are not going to ask girls, who already know how to dance. And because they have to ask, they will avoid that and stay even further back.
So, don’t tell boys they have to ask girls, because they don’t want to be rejected. Make it 50/50. Boys and Girls choice!
Another reason is that girls are following and most of the times they don’t know even the steps, blocking, and pulling men, not giving even 50% the power of men. Not even listen to the music…
They think, I can follow and learn fast, give me just a good partner.
Well, first they should see their video how they look with a good dancer and why that good dancer is not looking as good with them!

3. The last category, men who are looking for new (female) friends are either single (looking to get laid) or just separated/divorced. I would avoid the first ones and look for the other ones.
There is usually more men at the Single Dance places and sometimes Lady get there for free.. So it looks like at certain age, there are more men dancing than women.
But those who get that dancing bacillus will dance for life.

[wonderwoman]

I know why guys dance. Why DON'T guys dance?

[Chris Stratton]

Dance programs often end up being good at recruiting more of who they already have, rather than who they need to balance who they already have. Studios are often eternally short on men, yet the occasionally class or college team that ends up short on women may also find that pattern hard to break.

There could be many reasons, but two are probably key. One is that the dominant demographic is probably the one that the setting can well serve, and the missing may well have needs that it is not ready to provide (example - its not uncommon for those male dominated classes to have a woman dancing as a leader, because that is ultimately the role for which the class has greater value). Second, the presence of visibly succesfull advanced students in a given role plays a large role in the appeal to new students in that role, but if the few students in ones role are stuck in awkwardness, this is a major disincentive - and perhaps rightly so, because it may indicate a lack of resources to help them outgrow that.

[drejenpha]

1. In my case, I started to take dance lessons because I was in Grade 12 and I knew I will have to go to Prom and I would have to dance. Some guys go with their girlfriends to learn at least The 1-th dance during their wedding.
When you start, you will like dances you’ve already learned. I started with Waltz, Quickstep, Cha-Cha and Jive and I liked them the most and hated Tango Samba and Passo-Doble. Later when I learn them I started to like them.
So, if we want boys like dancing it has to be a compulsory dance program in schools (like in some countries (Russia in ex.).

Compulsory dance programs would cause more boys to dislike dance really. Being forced to do something would show some that they like it but a lot would not simply because they were forced to do it.

Another reason is that girls are following and most of the times they don’t know even the steps, blocking, and pulling men, not giving even 50% the power of men. Not even listen to the music…
They think, I can follow and learn fast, give me just a good partner.
Well, first they should see their video how they look with a good dancer and why that good dancer is not looking as good with them!

I refuse to blame women for men not wanting to dance, save the women who won't dance with beginning men... the last thing that I want as a guy is to have a useless skill because no one will dance with me (I was one of the guys that didn't have a partner most of the time in my intro ballroom class... it was discouraging but I ended up partnered with a TA most of the time).

3. The last category, men who are looking for new (female) friends are either single (looking to get laid) or just separated/divorced. I would avoid the first ones and look for the other ones.

I almost agree with this. The percentage of guys looking to get laid is pretty high (I would say most of us are, we enjoy it) and that translates into guys who dance as well. I'm always looking for more female friends because people that I can stand for continuous extended periods of time are hard to come by and more often than not they're girls. Plus I know I wouldn't have found a guy willing to call and wake me up every day because I was in the habit of sleeping into the afternoon if I had a choice.


Weighing in on the original topic, I think that guys don't dance because ballroom is much less mainstream now. Guys do dance, just much less formally.

[jennyisdancing]

Weighing in on the original topic, I think that guys don't dance because ballroom is much less mainstream now. Guys do dance, just much less formally.


Less mainstream? With all the dance shows on TV now? I wouldn't say that.

Anyway, what non-dancing guys tell me is that basically they don't dance because they feel awkward and uncoordinated and feel like they will make a fool of themselves. What they don't say (but is obvious) is, looking like a fool will defeat the idea of impressing women.

Of course, the answer is to take lessons, but I think many men don't even want to try that for fear they won't succeed and will look bad in front of women in the meantime. Beginner dancer's hell really keeps some guys away (and some women, too, who also fear looking foolish). I personally did fine with group classes, but I had previous dance background and didn't have as much social anxiety about dancing, as so many people do.

I wonder if it would help if more studios offer an affordable beginner's package which would include a few discounted private lessons with no long-term commitment. Then the beginner could get up to speed with no one watching except the teacher. At most of my local studios, the privates seem to be marketed more for advanced dancers, or for wedding couples.

[DancingMommy]

I know why guys dance. Why DON'T guys dance?

Because they aren't exposed to it from a young age. If it's a normal progression in the scheme of life, then it's just what they do.

For example, my son doesn't know anything other than "everyone in our family dances". He's in ballet/tap and is the one and only boy in the "baby classes". I think he's the only boy under 12 in the entire studio. But his little backside will be in dance class until he leaves home.

[Gorme]

I think it has become alot more acceptable now with the TV exposure. DWTS is the only thing that the non-dancing audience sees and for the men, they can see that the leaders in the show do not act or look feminine. For men who do not dance, you can point out that:

1. The man can become graceful while still remaining mighty and dominant.
2. Be accepted by his male peers.
3. Get a great workout.
4. Interact with alot of women.

I put the list in that order because guys care more about their own image first.

[Chris Stratton]

I wonder if it would help if more studios offer an affordable beginner's package which would include a few discounted private lessons with no long-term commitment. Then the beginner could get up to speed with no one watching except the teacher. At most of my local studios, the privates seem to be marketed more for advanced dancers, or for wedding couples.

This could work, but only if the typically low rankng teachers who end up doing the work are able to teach a path out of the kind of awkwardness that the lessons are meant to overcome. Often they are not, because their knowledge is more of patterns layered on top of a personal natural ease than the kind of precise functional expertise needed to turn the unnatural into ease. In effect, the moderately masked problems you can see in the teachers own dancing end up as unconquered obstacles to their less natural students.

[jennyisdancing]

This could work, but only if the typically low rankng teachers who end up doing the work are able to teach a path out of the kind of awkwardness that the lessons are meant to overcome. Often they are not, because their knowledge is more of patterns layered on top of a personal natural ease than the kind of precise functional expertise needed to turn the unnatural into ease. In effect, the moderately masked problems you can see in the teachers own dancing end up as unconquered obstacles to their less natural students.

Well, of course it would depend on the teacher's skill. If the studio is smart, they will assign beginners to the type of teachers who can really handle this assignment well.

Why is it that "low ranking" teachers are assigned to beginners anyway? My view is, you need the best teacher at the beginning, to have a positive experience, lay a solid foundation for your learning, not learn bad habits, and be motivated to continue your lessons. Fundamentals are everything and if you don't have that, the patterns don't mean much, as you point out.

I'm happy to say that my studio does not reserve its top teachers only for advanced levels. Even the beginner classes are handled by excellent instructors who are, for the most part, national-level competitors. It's been a big help to me to learn from these people.

[jjs914]

Why is it that "low ranking" teachers are assigned to beginners anyway? My view is, you need the best teacher at the beginning, to have a positive experience, lay a solid foundation for your learning, not learn bad habits, and be motivated to continue your lessons. Fundamentals are everything and if you don't have that, the patterns don't mean much, as you point out.


I don't teach at a studio...but I imagine teacher who have been at a studio longer have already (to some extent) established a group of students they work with. Newer teachers have more availability schedule-wise to take on new students...perhaps.

[pruthe]

Compulsory dance programs would cause more boys to dislike dance really. Being forced to do something would show some that they like it but a lot would not simply because they were forced to do it.


Not necessarily. Following is a link to MSNBC Making a Difference segment of Nightly News back in May. Chicago schools has implemented mandatory program for kids. (remove spaces in www)

w w w.msnbc.msn.com/id/22425001/vp/30833505

[etp777]

It works well too. My sister was involved with it a bit when she was a teacher with Chicago public schools, and my pro is one of the dance teachers. Also know one person involved in administration of it. All of them say the kids love it, boys and girls.

[Chopin]

My view is, you need the best teacher at the beginning, to have a positive experience, lay a solid foundation for your learning, not learn bad habits, and be motivated to continue your lessons. Fundamentals are everything and if you don't have that, the patterns don't mean much, as you point out.

I agree with that….

Low ranking teachers don’t teach the presentation, movement, top line, controlling of the toes and ankles and even proper timing.
In Quickstep, for example, there is not big difference between “Slow” and “Quick”. For me it’s dancing off time (not on beat). The same is in other dances….

Those low ranking teachers are not paying enough attention to ladies. For them ladies will follow, if the man is good. Many ladies are lacking energy , mostly because they don’t know the steps, alignment, don’t even follow the timing.

Dancing is not just up to the men – it’s 50/50 partnership and if the lady doesn’t know the steps, how can she help the partner?
Man is the driver, but he’s not a mover or the one who's holding her in the air…
She has to produce some energy as well, for example when she moves forward to the man’s right side (i.e. Running Finish)

I know one guy who was so frustrated with women, because they don’t want to learn, but listening how good they are, who were using him to teach them and later dump him to take more advanced dancer…. , that he stopped taking any lessons and going dancing.

[DancingMommy]

Low ranking teachers don’t teach the presentation, movement, top line, controlling of the toes and ankles and even proper timing.

I think this is a very dangerous generalisation. EVERY teacher started out as "low ranking". Just because someone is new to the profession - which is what I'm assuming you mean by "low ranking" - doesn't mean they aren't meticulous about the *details* or even care about both halves of a student partnership.

Further, if by "low ranking" you actually mean "hasn't placed in a professional competition", then I would disagree even MORE strongly with your statement. Competitive rank is not a guarantee that a teacher will be any GOOD at communicating effectively.

[tanya_the_dancer]

So, if we want boys like dancing it has to be a compulsory dance program in schools (like in some countries (Russia in ex.).[/SIZE][/FONT]


Can someone tell me when Russia made a compulsory dance program in schools? Just curious, because I spent the first 20 years of my life there and I don't recall dance ever being part of required educational program. We had music (aka signing) and drawing, both ended somewhere in 6th or 7th grade. I graduated from HS there in 1990.

[Chopin]

Just because someone is new to the profession - which is what I'm assuming you mean by "low ranking" - doesn't mean they aren't meticulous about the *details*...

Further, if by "low ranking" you actually mean "hasn't placed in a professional competition", then I would disagree even MORE...

It’s not what I mean by “low ranking” professional. When our previous amateur national champions turned “pro” they were at once high profile professionals. Most of the top amateur couples wanted to book some private lessons (even they’re very expensive).
But when couple years ago another guy, who couldn’t find a dance partner (Silver Level), started giving some lessons to beginners at the social club, has made himself “pro” – but in my opinion “very low ranking”.
Still now I don’t know of any competitors taking lessons from him and I don’t see him dancing at the Pro-Am competitions as well.
The quality of students (and demand from them) makes the teacher low or high ranking.

Competitive rank is not a guarantee that a teacher will be any GOOD at communicating effectively.

Yes, I agree with that ...
and if he/she won’t “communicating effectively” they will loose good dancers and will become “middle or even low ranking” “pro”.

Last weekend I saw one of the previous top teachers in the region, in a social club, dancing with completely beginners and looking for a job.
He is not organizing any competition, has not his own studio any more, is not judging any competition for the last couple of years….
He advertises himself even on Internet but has not too many students and the only lady competing Pro-Am with him was his girlfriend.
He is about 70 years old, but not only his age, but rather reputation among competitors and competition from new professionals lowered significantly his ranking among professionals.

[Wolfgang]

Alas Dancin_Feet, it is a worldwide phenomenon. :(

But, it was a couple of guys in Sydney that made me want to throttle them! :evil: I was at a salsa place, standing at a corner of the dancefloor. A couple of guys came in and were basically leering at the girls who were dancing. They then started making comments about, why do people bother to dance, or why even buy the girl a drink? Why don't they just skip it and just get straight "into it" and I was like: :shock: which caveman movie did YOU just crawl off of! :shock:

This may have had something to do with those guys having realized that 'The Guy Who Can Dance Gets The Girl' is a fairy tale.
In reality, the tallest, most aggressive guy with the biggest wallet gets the girl.

[DancingMommy]

This may have had something to do with those guys having realized that 'The Guy Who Can Dance Gets The Girl' is a fairy tale.
In reality, the tallest, most aggressive guy with the biggest wallet gets the girl.

Oh really? That's not been my experience. My experience is that the tall, aggressive guys with the big wallets need an iron skillet upside the head to keep them in line. They think they can drag a girl off by her hair and she's supposed to be impressed by them. Blech.

Give me a compact, energetic guy with mad dance skillz and I'm a happy camper. Height/looks not an issue.

[waltzguy]

In reality, the tallest, most aggressive guy with the biggest wallet gets the girl.

What do you mean, "get the girl"? For dancing? Or for more? It's not clear (at least to me) from your post.

[waltzguy]

Oh really? That's not been my experience. My experience is that the tall, aggressive guys with the big wallets need an iron skillet upside the head to keep them in line. They think they can drag a girl off by her hair and she's supposed to be impressed by them. Blech.

Give me a compact, energetic guy with mad dance skillz and I'm a happy camper. Height/looks not an issue.

I fully agree with this.

[samina]

Oh really? That's not been my experience.

has not been my experience, either. it may be true that the tallest, most aggressive guy with the biggest wallet may indeed get the trophy-wife...who's looking for the tallest, most aggressive guy with the biggest wallet.

but with those that have richer, more heart-felt values, there are oodles of cases of unattractive or geeky men getting beautiful women...because they tap into deeper veins of satisfaction for the women they love.

a man who can dance definitely adds value of the latter sort...:cool:

[jennyisdancing]

I fully agree with this.

Me too. Any woman who dances with, or dates a guy only because he's tall, aggressive or rich, is not a woman worth having anyway, IMO. Find a woman with a brain and good judgment. :rolleyes:

[waltzguy]

Love your post, Samina. So inspiring.

[danceronice]

Point: it's also possible that sometimes, the taller and/or better-looking guy with the bigger wallet is nicer and/or less needy than the geeky less-attractive one because he's not bitter, insecure and/or resentful, or walking around with a huge chip on his shoulder about how all the women are going to ignore him because he's not taller/richer/handsome one and that's really, really off-putting. I'm not looking for a man (date or dance partner) who needs a mommy or a therapist and if you're putting off the woe is me and all good-looking men are jerks vibe, I'm gone.

I dont' think it's about just an ability to dance that started the reputation about the guy who dances getting the girl. It's not so much the actual dancing, it's the attitude/bearing it creates. Most of the male pros and good ams that I know or have seen are attractive when they dance, not because what their faces or bodies look like but because dancing, ESPECIALLY competitive dancing, requires a man to tap into some very primal things--it's really sexy when a guy can walk out on the floor and without even making a great big posturing deal out of it, claim his space and be confident in holding it. There are some competing pros whom frankly I wouldn't look twice at if I passed on the street who are HOT when they are out on the floor just because of how their bearing changes. (No, men of my studio, I'm not telling if any of you are included in that. ;) ) A guy can have some technique and know some steps, but without that confidence that says "Now we dance", it's still not going to magically make him hot.

[DL]

Point: ...

Nice one.

[etp777]

Ditto

[and123]

:applause: Yep, leave your emotional baggage off the dance floor.

[jennyisdancing]

:applause: Yep, leave your emotional baggage off the dance floor.

True for women also.

[jjs914]

I dont' think it's about just an ability to dance that started the reputation about the guy who dances getting the girl. It's not so much the actual dancing, it's the attitude/bearing it creates. Most of the male pros and good ams that I know or have seen are attractive when they dance, not because what their faces or bodies look like but because dancing, ESPECIALLY competitive dancing, requires a man to tap into some very primal things--it's really sexy when a guy can walk out on the floor and without even making a great big posturing deal out of it, claim his space and be confident in holding it. There are some competing pros whom frankly I wouldn't look twice at if I passed on the street who are HOT when they are out on the floor just because of how their bearing changes. (No, men of my studio, I'm not telling if any of you are included in that. ;) ) A guy can have some technique and know some steps, but without that confidence that says "Now we dance", it's still not going to magically make him hot.

DOI: Nicely put. This attitude can be seriously swoon-worthy.

[Terpsichorean Clod]

Why is it that "low ranking" teachers are assigned to beginners anyway? My view is, you need the best teacher at the beginning, to have a positive experience, lay a solid foundation for your learning, not learn bad habits, and be motivated to continue your lessons. Fundamentals are everything and if you don't have that, the patterns don't mean much, as you point out.
I don't teach at a studio...but I imagine teacher who have been at a studio longer have already (to some extent) established a group of students they work with. Newer teachers have more availability schedule-wise to take on new students...perhaps.
I understand the need for the advanced students to work with the most senior instructors. And someone has to take lessons from the junior instructors. However, I think it would be good for the newbies/beginners to have their training periodically reinforced by the senior instructors, even if just a group class. Maybe FADS's system with buddy teachers is kinda like this?

To me, the generally prevailing studio system I've seen is as if we're saying the newbies have to prove themselves and survive long enough to get to the real stuff (unfortunately the newbies don't know that). Some people luck out and somehow manage to get the best instructors when they start out. Others get inexperienced instructors (perhaps with just weeks of experience). They either persevere long enough to get to a senior instructor who gets to undo all the bad habits they've built up, or they quit, frustrated with dancing, never having become aware of the fundamentals that would have made it fun and physically comfortable.

[Albanaich]

competitive dancing, requires a man to tap into some very primal things--it's really sexy when a guy can walk out on the floor and without even making a great big posturing deal out of it, claim his space and be confident in holding it

Which, to get back to the start of thread, is one of the reason's guy's don't dance.

It's also why men good at martial arts are also often good dancers - the late Patrick Swazye and Bruce Lee come to mind.

The skills and personality traits that make a good dancer also make a good fighter.

There is theory that see's dance as form of 'ritual combat' where no blood is drawn but the winner gets the girl of his choice :-), which let's be honest here, is what happens with the best male dancers. They get the pick of the partners.

[biggestbox]

boys don't dance b/c we don't know how to teach boys. Boys need male role models, they have shorter attention spans than girls and the dance needs to be physically disciplined and challenging. Boys are stronger and have different dispositions. They have huge jumps and turns that's why they are taught separately in ballet academies. My favorite memory of dance class was when the girls put on their point shoes, my teacher would come up to me and ask “how’s your double tour?”

[Gssh]

Because a beginning follower can get a huge kick out of "being danced" by an even a little bit more advanced leader, while a beginning leader will experience dancing with any follower as mostly frustrating, with more advanced followers being even more frustrating than fellow beginners.

Gssh

[flashdance]

Ditto

tritto... great post danceronice...

I could rattle the world at times with society's perceptions when it comes to men dancing... and what you wrote DOI. Teleport me back to the 1920's/30's/40's please :)

[Terpsichorean Clod]

Because a beginning follower can get a huge kick out of "being danced" by an even a little bit more advanced leader, while a beginning leader will experience dancing with any follower as mostly frustrating, with more advanced followers being even more frustrating than fellow beginners.

Gssh
Given the difference in initial learning curves for leaders and followers, a solution might be to teach men and women both to lead and to follow. :)

[DancingMommy]

@TC - that's my focus in group settings in a perfect world...

[Terpsichorean Clod]

@TC - that's my focus in group settings in a perfect world...
:notworth:

Plus mad costuming skillz.

And you like "compact" guys.

Marry me!! ;)

So what sorts of issues do you encounter with this class format?

[etp777]

Moree women need to like us compact guys. :)

[DancingMommy]

:notworth:

Plus mad costuming skillz.

And you like "compact" guys.

Marry me!! ;)

So what sorts of issues do you encounter with this class format?

Issues? Well, some people don't like having to actually *learn*. Le sigh. And some people don't like leading/following if that's not "their part".

But I swear the biggest breakthroughs my husband or I have ever had in dancing is to become proficient at the *opposite* role.

Too bad I'm already taken... But if you think my boy is cute... If you can just hang on 10 more years... I'll have a daughter that I can pawn off on ya. ;) She's something else all right. Lemme see...http://hphotos-snc1.fbcdn.net/hs192.snc1/6454_1195150397544_1191978295_584283_6548944_n.jpg

She made the dress herself! ;) Takes after her ma, she does. Guaranteed not to be tall, too!

[etp777]

ok, you definitely have cute kids, plural. :)

I never really picked up the sewing thin gfrommom. i limit myself to hemming pants. ANd making sure to have black safety pins around for our (mine and the male pros from studio) numbers at competitions. :P

[DancingMommy]

Thanks! The middle kid isn't so bad either, lol.
http://hphotos-snc1.fbcdn.net/hs192.snc1/6454_1200473010606_1191978295_605771_4756826_n.jpg

[Nybz]

More bars in more places? :uplaugh:
You should send that picture to At&t(cingular?)
Very cute picture.

[tanya_the_dancer]

Because a beginning follower can get a huge kick out of "being danced" by an even a little bit more advanced leader, while a beginning leader will experience dancing with any follower as mostly frustrating, with more advanced followers being even more frustrating than fellow beginners.

Gssh

Why is it even more frustrating for a beginning guy to dance with an advanced follow, who supposedly knows what she's doing? I can see how it can be frustrating for the follow, but what's the guy's problem in this situation?

[Chiron]

Why is it even more frustrating for a beginning guy to dance with an advanced follow, who supposedly knows what she's doing? I can see how it can be frustrating for the follow, but what's the guy's problem in this situation?

I remember when I was first starting I was dancing with a very advanced follow, and unfortunately she followed (unfortunately my leads at that point didn't match what I thought I was leading). I think I was giving her an impetus to go and then not going anywhere and cutting her off really badly in turns. That was the hardest time I ever had dancing right and left turns in waltz. A begining follow wouldn't have picked up on most the bad information I was transmitting would just be trying to guess change step or turn, and then doing the step like I wasn't there.

[DancingMommy]

More bars in more places? :uplaugh:
You should send that picture to At&t(cingular?)
Very cute picture.

Yup. That's code for "everybody line up and hold hands". I'd need two more to have the AT&T bars, lol. And uh... NOT GOING THERE!!! 8) Stick a fork in me because these three... Give me a run for my money, lol. Although... if subsequent ones were like the last one... I might end up with a dozen, lol.

[psittac]

Give me a compact, energetic guy with mad dance skillz and I'm a happy camper. Height/looks not an issue.

That sounds like a personal ad... ;-)

Seriously, I was quite intrigued that this thread got going again. It's certainly something I've been mulling for quite a while. Having observed our University dance club, as well as various dance socials and studios around town, I would agree that cultural barriers to dance are probably still the dominant factor contributing toward the relative paucity of males starting dance. Most of the athletic guys in high school, who would probably make for better dancers, get laughed at by their fellow athletic peers if they participate in dancing (the new TV comedy series "Glee" seems to be addressing this very well!). Interestingly, our male University dance club population is quite over-represented by nerdy guys (including myself). However, the presence of male role models on Dancing with Stars has gone a long way toward making this more acceptable an activity even for athletes. As a result, I've started seeing hockey jocks showing up to beginner dance classes with their girlfriends, for example--and even enjoying themselves dancing!

I read with some interest the article by Lloyd Nicholas that was cited by somebody a while back in this thread (which, incidentally, has moved to http://www.lloydianaspects.co.uk/evolve/menwont.html). While I agree with some of his points, I think my experience within my various ballroom circles (including both competitive and social dancers) does not really jive with his evolutionary analysis of male behaviour. First of all, there is actually a fair degree of camaraderie among the male dancers, rather than the kind of cut-throat competition one might expect for an activity that is supposedly for males to demonstrate their prowess before the females. I find the females, curiously enough, far more cut-throat in their tactics, particularly in partner selection, with this extending even to partner poaching. Moreover, I disagree with Nicholas' contention that most males don't derive pleasure from rhythmical movement to music. I think that's largely cultural in North America. In many Latin cultures, it is considered the social norm for guys to dance; indeed, the guys who are the best dancers are considered the most 'macho'. Even in North America, many guys do love and respect music in many forms, and a good many are musicians themselves. Those who play musical instruments have to possess some understanding of the movement associated with creating music.

[latingal]

Good to see you posting again psittac! I enjoyed your post!

[psittac]

I remember when I was first starting I was dancing with a very advanced follow, and unfortunately she followed (unfortunately my leads at that point didn't match what I thought I was leading).

You know, a current pet peeve of mine is that I'm finding that a lot of the intermediate level followers in the competitive circuits (i.e., Silver and Gold levels in IDSF syllabus), worry much more about honing their stylistic skills, than about connection and follow. A lot of the ladies seem to rely upon having memorized routines to follow, rather than truly reacting and responding to a partner's lead. Among the Standard dances, I find this particularly true in International Tango, while this problem seems to plague all the Latin dances. I know that as leaders, we are probably responsible for a good 75% of ensuring that the lady gets the message; however, having danced with a variety of ladies, it seems there's a huge range of sensitivity to leads among the female dance population.

[Chris Stratton]

You know, a current pet peeve of mine is that I'm finding that a lot of the intermediate level followers in the competitive circuits (i.e., Silver and Gold levels in IDSF syllabus), worry much more about honing their stylistic skills, than about connection and follow. A lot of the ladies seem to rely upon having memorized routines to follow, rather than truly reacting and responding to a partner's lead. Among the Standard dances, I find this particularly true in International Tango, while this problem seems to plague all the Latin dances. I know that as leaders, we are probably responsible for a good 75% of ensuring that the lady gets the message; however, having danced with a variety of ladies, it seems there's a huge range of sensitivity to leads among the female dance population.

I've seen this too, and perhaps the fairest thing to say is that dancing is different things to different people.

[j_alexandra]

You know, a current pet peeve of mine is that I'm finding that a lot of the intermediate level followers in the competitive circuits (i.e., Silver and Gold levels in IDSF syllabus), worry much more about honing their stylistic skills, than about connection and follow. A lot of the ladies seem to rely upon having memorized routines to follow, rather than truly reacting and responding to a partner's lead. Among the Standard dances, I find this particularly true in International Tango, while this problem seems to plague all the Latin dances. I know that as leaders, we are probably responsible for a good 75% of ensuring that the lady gets the message; however, having danced with a variety of ladies, it seems there's a huge range of sensitivity to leads among the female dance population.

Can I dance w/you, huh huh can I can I? I could use the practice in following. Which is how I think of social dancing as, anyway: practice in following.

BOT: I recently went to a beginner group class in a studio in a city far away from where I live, and it was overpopulated w/guys, mostly young. More leads than follows, some with enough experience to actually lead, instead of trying to remember what to do with their feet. I thought I'd died and gone to heaven. So maybe things are changing, and more guys have started dancing, we just haven't seen the ripple effect yet in socials and comps?

[Chris Stratton]

BOT: I recently went to a beginner group class in a studio in a city far away from where I live, and it was overpopulated w/guys, mostly young. More leads than follows, some with enough experience to actually lead, instead of trying to remember what to do with their feet. I thought I'd died and gone to heaven. So maybe things are changing, and more guys have started dancing, we just haven't seen the ripple effect yet in socials and comps?

My suspicion is that there are always pockets like that, mostly resuting from dancing being presented in a different way.

[etp777]

I would suspect the followers that have gotten to point they worry more about style than follow, and being used to/insiting on a routine, are a side effect of areas where there aren't enough leads. So the women in question get used to just dancing/competing pro am. Gives them same routine with same lead, likely an experienced leader with a strong lead, etc. In their position, stylistic improvement often can be biggest thing to concentrate on. I know I got a huge response (I'm a lead, but still) this last competition when I went out there and worried less about technique during the heats and more about just style.

[Chris Stratton]

I would suspect the followers that have gotten to point they worry more about style than follow, and being used to/insiting on a routine, are a side effect of areas where there aren't enough leads. So the women in question get used to just dancing/competing pro am.

Quite understandably. But it becomes circular on the occasions when guys do wander in, see this going on, and realize that this evolution has made them unecessary.

Its a tricky thing to carry on in the abscence of one half of the picture, while retaining the opportunity to make use of it if it should happen to show up.

[etp777]

Agree absolutely. :)

That is one advantage to fact my main studio concentrates on social dancing, not competitive. THe followers tend not to be looking just for their regular routine, etc. Course, for last month or so (and probalby at least for another month now), I'M stuck in my routines just because that's what I'd been practicing every day for comp last week. But haven't had any complaints yet. :)

[j_alexandra]

I would suspect the followers that have gotten to point they worry more about style than follow, and being used to/insisting on a routine, are a side effect of areas where there aren't enough leads. So the women in question get used to just dancing/competing pro am. Gives them same routine with same lead, likely an experienced leader with a strong lead, etc. In their position, stylistic improvement often can be biggest thing to concentrate on.<snip>

Teach would drop dead before he let this happen to any of his women students. We are all taught to follow. (Some of us with more success than others.:oops:) Which is partly why I was so impressed with so many of the guys at this group class. A good many of them were *leading* me.

[The Trippmeister]

I dance, but I've definitely noticed the tendency of other guys not to. In fact it wasn't until I arrived at college a year ago that I myself started, though that's partly because I didn't have time to start anything new...

Actually that tendency helps out here... it balances out the 3 to 1 male-to-female ratio at my school ;). We usually have pretty equal numbers.

[fascination]

Agree absolutely. :)

That is one advantage to fact my main studio concentrates on social dancing, not competitive. THe followers tend not to be looking just for their regular routine, etc. Course, for last month or so (and probalby at least for another month now), I'M stuck in my routines just because that's what I'd been practicing every day for comp last week. But haven't had any complaints yet. :)
although...alot of leads who social dance are also regurgatating whatever their most recent group lesson on that style was...and so the ladies who were at that group are at an advantage...not neccessarily following either...alot of times those of us with an over-abundance of competitive experience are, in fact, very accustomed to an unambiguous lead, true...but, in a social venue the problem is partly that we may have a limited reperatoire and partly that the lead may be far more ambiguous...so, the ladies who have been to many groups may fare better perhaps b/c they are better followers but, just as likely, b/c they are better at guessing what the pattern is due to having participated in the same group lessons...m2c

[Albanaich]

Just back from a Social Dance - what a trip!!! New set up with a live dance band so everyone (frow Swing and Ballroom) was there to see what would happen. I did West Coast Swing, Lindy, Cha Cha Cha, Samba, Waltz, Balboa, and Ballroom Jive. . . . a rather crazy but wonderful evening.

My Swing class think I'm superhero because I can fumble my way through social ballroom :-)

It was a trully bizarre evening, marvellous fun, with few barriers between the different dance forms.

[fascination]

glad to hear it

[BR-folk-square]

First, at the begining levels, it is harder for men than for women, especially because lead dancing is multitasking: He must dance one figure, while giving the lead for the next, and planning the one after that, all while keeping track of the speed and direction of several nearby couples so that he can change midstream what he is going to do in order to avoid a collision. And women's brains are wired for multitasking, men's are wired for intensity and single tasking. That is one block to keep the men out. It's much like a modern computer, prefetching instructions for multiple instruction paths, prefetching operands, then adjusting and resetting when operands are changed by another processor, or branch prediction failed. LOL

Second, a woman dancing with a more experienced man, can probably be led through a number of figures she doesn't officially "know", making it more fun than dancing with an equal. A woman dancing with a man who knows less than her is bored doing a fraction of what she would like to do, and shows it, or avoids beginner men when they come looking for a partner. Thus, there aren't enough women, past the absolute basic class (at dances), who want to dance with the beginner men. Those men, already being insecure, detect that, give up and quit.

Yes, most advanced beginner classes I go to also have more men than women. And at the open dances for advanced beginners, many of the women go home early, the few remaining ones only dance with the few higher level men, so the beginner men don't get to dance. I am close to giving up on ballroom dancing.

--Carey

[tanya_the_dancer]

For me, the reason why I leave the socials early is that women considerably outnumber men (at least around here) and I know if I stick around longer, I won't get as many dances anyway (and I don't get a lot unless I do the asking). So, after I had some dances and my fill of socializing, what I usually end up doing is make my last dance a good one (by picking one of my favorite leaders) and head home, usually about 1 hour - 90 minutes after I got there.

[and123]

If you're saying that the "advanced" ladies refuse dances with beginner men, that's just wrong. There should be a legitimate reason for refusing a dance, and the guy being a beginner isn't one of them.

[fascination]

Second, a woman dancing with a more experienced man, can probably be led through a number of figures she doesn't officially "know", making it more fun than dancing with an equal. A woman dancing with a man who knows less than her is bored doing a fraction of what she would like to do, and shows it, or avoids beginner men when they come looking for a partner. Thus, there aren't enough women, past the absolute basic class (at dances), who want to dance with the beginner men. Those men, already being insecure, detect that, give up and quit.

Yes, most advanced beginner classes I go to also have more men than women. And at the open dances for advanced beginners, many of the women go home early, the few remaining ones only dance with the few higher level men, so the beginner men don't get to dance. I am close to giving up on ballroom dancing.

--Careythis is not my experience at all...personally, I will dance with any man who asks

[BR-folk-square]

If you're saying that the "advanced" ladies refuse dances with beginner men, that's just wrong. There should be a legitimate reason for refusing a dance, and the guy being a beginner isn't one of them.

They don't refuse, but it is clear (with about half) that they don't like it.

As you approach to ask them, they may turn away, or they will have a drink in their hand, when a beginner asks say they are taking a break (and they do follow the rules, not dancing with anybody else that piece of music), but if an advance dancer asked them, they would put the drink down and dance.

Even before the music has died out completely, they turn tail and are off to the other end of the room.

And, as I said, it don't blame them, it's gotta be boring be only do only do 8-10 figures when you know 25, and could be doing 40 with a good lead.

I didn't say I had a way to fix it.

--Carey

[fascination]

I disagree...strongly...most follows would prefer well done basics than a bunch of poorly led fancy stuff all day long...now, sure, if a guy can lead well and lead a myriad of things...sure...he will be in higher demand

[etp777]

I know a tparties I tend to stick with basics, and often (most of time? I hope? ;) ) I just do basics but still have follows leave floor with smile on their face. During salsa band at our last comp, I stuck almost all to basics, and still got compliments, even from pros. Well, "basics", as I wouldn't have tried to pull 3-4 spins in peekaboos wiht just anyone, but with two pros I did that they certainly appreciated it. Or so they said. ;)

[BR-folk-square]

For me, the reason why I leave the socials early is that women considerably outnumber men (at least around here) and I know if I stick around longer, I won't get as many dances anyway (and I don't get a lot unless I do the asking). So, ...I head home, usually about 1 hour - 90 minutes after I got there.

At the dances I have been to, there might be 3-5% extra women as the open dancing starts (after the "free" lesson). Anyway, no more than 30 minutes later enough have left, or are tired enough to be sitting out, that the balance is even, and another 15 minutes later more men than women.

I quit the argentine tango class when it got to the point that there were 3 times as many men as women before the class started. I just didn't go in, and went home. A couple of women would come for the milonga, but ONLY to dance with the instructor.

One ballroom teachj/dance run by a membership club started with 8 extra men (way down at the end of a long narrow hall where they couldn't even see the instructor who positioned himeslf at the end by the music), they didn't rotate partners, and the female president of the club looked, saw there were extra men, then went back to dancing lead because she wanted to learn to dance lead. I walked out and will NEVER return to that club. The extra men were all new, since before the teach started, the women were chatting up the experienced male dancers who probably didn't need the class in the first place. Perhaps the experienced female dancers didn't arrive until after the teach, I will never know.

--Carey

[BR-folk-square]

I disagree...strongly...most follows would prefer well done basics than a bunch of poorly led fancy stuff all day long...now, sure, if a guy can lead well and lead a myriad of things...sure...he will be in higher demand

So you say you disagree strongly, then you agree.

And, anyway, the advanced dancers will know MORE figures as well as LEAD BETTER. The beginners will never get good because they don't have the chance to practice. Or maybe you can tell me how a beginner can get better at leading if he only gets to dance with a broomstick on his living room carpet....

--Carey

[and123]

Sounds like you may be attending socials full of clique-y stuck-up people. Try some different venues.

[samina]

this is not my experience at all...personally, I will dance with any man who asks

not my experience either. and i will actively invite less experienced men to the floor... and certainly would *never* be so rude as to express boredom. crikey... if that were my attitude, i would most definitely leave and not inflict such a horrible lack of graciousness on other dance attendees.

[etp777]

Heh, probalbly good choice, as if you rudley express boredom, I ccertainly won't ask you again. Now if your'e bored, and ask for something more complicated, that's a whole differnet story. I'll be happy to try more complicated patterns. And if you don't get them, I'll be happy to take blame and say problem is lack in the lead. so if you do happen to feel bored, ask for something more complicated! If you phrase it right (You're leading those great, so how about se try something a bit toughter), NO lead ias ever going to say now or be upset with you. :)

[CANI]

They don't refuse, but it is clear (with about half) that they don't like it.

As you approach to ask them, they may turn away, or they will have a drink in their hand, when a beginner asks say they are taking a break (and they do follow the rules, not dancing with anybody else that piece of music), but if an advance dancer asked them, they would put the drink down and dance.


--Carey

Hi Carey -

I echo what someone else said that you may want to try another place. I do understand what you are saying, and I have seen it, and I have seen beginner leads pick up on it. It.is.awful. It is subtle, but not so subtle that the beginners don't notice it. However, thankfully, I do not believe it is the norm in ballroom. I have a really nice place to dance...and hope you find one too.

I've always loved dancing with beginners...and it doesn't matter if they only know 1 step...and I hope you don't give up on ballroom dancing because of this. I do believe there are many nice followers out there who truly enjoy dancing with beginners. Hope you find a better situation.

CANI

[BR-folk-square]

Hi Carey -

I echo what someone else said that you may want to try another place. I do understand what you are saying, and I have seen it, and I have seen beginner leads pick up on it. It.is.awful. It is subtle, but not so subtle that the beginners don't notice it. However, thankfully, I do not believe it is the norm in ballroom. I have a really nice place to dance...and hope you find one too. ...

CANI

Thank you Cani

I notice that the one person who agrees with me is a (at least on this forum) a beginner too.

There is one ballroom studio where at least half the dancers are in the same vicinity as my leel, and I feel more comfortble there. Unfortuntely that is the place where the dancing starts out with more men (dancing) than women, and becomes very lopsided within 30 minutes. Or I can go to a squre dance, a beer garden or single dance (where people normally just wiggle randomly) and some women will love to dance with me, and even bystanders will compliment me...because there I am a relative expert. But there is no future in that either.

[and123]

hmmmm, kinda sounds like you and Wolfgang need to get together and commisserate ;)

[Terpsichorean Clod]

Hi Carey.

Don't worry about Wolfgang. He is he and you are you. :)

I'm sorry to hear about your experience. I have experienced similar snubs. It's unfortunate that there are some men and women who don't understand that the advanced dancers of tomorrow come from the beginners of today. Thankfully in my case, those have been far outnumbered by the advanced ladies who have graciously given me a dance or two, or more (thank you so much, Laura!)!

If you aren't already, I think you should consider private lessons and/or technique classes. You mentioned that you go to advanced beginner classes. Perhaps you could look for a partner or practice buddy in the regular beginner class.

When you become advanced, encourage your less experienced brethren. Remind the beginner women waiting in line to get on your dance card that it is in their best interest not to neglect their peers.

All the best!

[Terpsichorean Clod]

Issues? Well, some people don't like having to actually *learn*. Le sigh. And some people don't like leading/following if that's not "their part".
I was also thinking that even if everyone in the class were capable of both roles, it would likely fall apart on contact with the regular world/social as people reverted to their traditional role.
But I swear the biggest breakthroughs my husband or I have ever had in dancing is to become proficient at the *opposite* role.
:cheers:
Too bad I'm already taken... But if you think my boy is cute... If you can just hang on 10 more years... I'll have a daughter that I can pawn off on ya. ;) She's something else all right. Lemme see...

She made the dress herself! ;) Takes after her ma, she does. Guaranteed not to be tall, too!
LOL! Absolutely adorable! 10 years, eh? I'll be far into my dotage, but I can wait. ;)

[Gorme]

There is one ballroom studio where at least half the dancers are in the same vicinity as my leel, and I feel more comfortble there. Unfortuntely that is the place where the dancing starts out with more men (dancing) than women, and becomes very lopsided within 30 minutes. Or I can go to a squre dance, a beer garden or single dance (where people normally just wiggle randomly) and some women will love to dance with me, and even bystanders will compliment me...because there I am a relative expert. But there is no future in that either.

I had a similar problem as you when I first started dancing. The studio I was at had more men than women (2:1) and majority of the dancers were intermediate level. So I went to another dance party where the highest level of dancers were advanced beginner. I started out with the absolute beginners and worked my way up as I got better. I continued to take lessons and group classes at the former location and practiced at the latter location. One year later, I was dancing with the best the latter location had to offer and went to try out the former studio's party. I found out I could dance with the intermediate ladies and even had the advanced ladies seek me out for dances. It was a rewarding experience.

[fascination]

So you say you disagree strongly, then you agree.

And, anyway, the advanced dancers will know MORE figures as well as LEAD BETTER. The beginners will never get good because they don't have the chance to practice. Or maybe you can tell me how a beginner can get better at leading if he only gets to dance with a broomstick on his living room carpet....

--Carey
A)not sure how you get a double negative out of that
B)there are plenty of men who have been dancing for years with no improvement to their ability to lead, only an increase in their number of steps b/c they never take privates focusing on lead and technique...thus they have no advantage over you
C)the ones who do, are rare...very very rare...so whehter or not woemn prefer them has no real impact on how often you get to dance with a good follow
D) I appreciate your frustration...every newcomer has it...all I am saying is that it is unlikely that things are as grim as you percieve and, even if they are, that perception will likely hamper you if you choose to see things through that lens
E)when one posts to a public forum, one will not always get full agreement, and it is assumed that that is not what one is seeking
F) I wish you continued enjoyment of your dance journey

[fascination]

Thank you Cani

I notice that the one person who agrees with me is a (at least on this forum) a beginner too.

There is one ballroom studio where at least half the dancers are in the same vicinity as my leel, and I feel more comfortble there. Unfortuntely that is the place where the dancing starts out with more men (dancing) than women, and becomes very lopsided within 30 minutes. Or I can go to a squre dance, a beer garden or single dance (where people normally just wiggle randomly) and some women will love to dance with me, and even bystanders will compliment me...because there I am a relative expert. But there is no future in that either.
another thing to bear in mind is that few of us, if any, find a constantly ideal social setting in which to dance ....you go, you take what you get...you focus on what you can do rather than what you can't otherwise it will frequently be a let-down

[Chris Stratton]

They don't refuse, but it is clear (with about half) that they don't like it.

As you approach to ask them, they may turn away, or they will have a drink in their hand

Learning to read other's non-verbal signs is every bit as important to social dancing as anything you do while dancing. The AT folks are quite a bit ahead with that whole cabaceo tradition of non-verbal invitations.

[Chris Stratton]

the advanced dancers of tomorrow come from the beginners of today.

Yes, however both advanced dancers and beginners constitute a minority of the social dance population, which really changes the conclusions you can draw from this. Actual beginners and experienced dancers often turn out to have a lot in common in how they approach dancing. But both may often find themselves at odds with the typical social attender who has many years of experience but has been dancing about the same way for most of them.

And that is an easy state to fall into, even by accident. A number of posts here have made a connection between intricacy of patterns and interest, which is a perfect example of how to get stuck in your dancing. Real capability in dancing does not come from the search for variety, but in the effort to really master essentials - an effort that requires not only personal dedication, but seeking out classes or lessons that teach capability, not routines that are all too frequently well beyond practicality.

[jennyisdancing]

They don't refuse, but it is clear (with about half) that they don't like it.

As you approach to ask them, they may turn away, or they will have a drink in their hand, when a beginner asks say they are taking a break (and they do follow the rules, not dancing with anybody else that piece of music), but if an advance dancer asked them, they would put the drink down and dance.

Even before the music has died out completely, they turn tail and are off to the other end of the room.

And, as I said, it don't blame them, it's gotta be boring be only do only do 8-10 figures when you know 25, and could be doing 40 with a good lead.

I didn't say I had a way to fix it.

--Carey

It's interesting for me to hear about this - since, everywhere I dance, there is a surplus of ladies. I'd love to know what it's like to have extra guys around! :)

In either case, seems to me the same principles apply, more or less. The better dancers are in more demand; and the more attractive people are in more demand. So, unless you're in a very friendly, egalitarian venue, it works like this:

Excellent/advanced dancer + attractive: top demand
Excellent/advanced dancer: also top demand if you are in a place with experienced dancers who just want and appreciate skilled partners
Attractive + beginner or poor skills: you'll get some dances (this is especially true for younger, hot women) but not as many as the good dancers
Unattractive + beginner or poor skills: harder to get dances - though good dance etiquette dictates that people should still dance with you anyway to be polite, but they don't always do this, unfortunately.

I am not in any way condoning what you are saying some ladies are doing. It's bad form to refuse you, the beginner, but then agree to dance that same song with someone else more advanced. It's completely wrong. But if you can't find more beginner-friendly venues, then the way to get more dances is to improve your skills and, secondarily, your appearance. I agree with the suggestion for private lessons, which will more quickly increase your skills. As for appearance, maybe dress better or get a different haircut?

[fascination]

Learning to read other's non-verbal signs is every bit as important to social dancing as anything you do while dancing. The AT folks are quite a bit ahead with that whole cabaceo tradition of non-verbal invitations.
on the other hand...it is also wise not to take any of it too personally...as an advanced dancer, at least as one who is percieved to be in social settings, I have trouble getting new guys to ask me...so wherever one is in their dance journey, IME it is just best to accept the situation and do what one can do about it rather than bemoan the things over which one has no control

[tanya_the_dancer]

...
I am not in any way condoning what you are saying some ladies are doing. It's bad form to refuse you, the beginner, but then agree to dance that same song with someone else more advanced. It's completely wrong. But if you can't find more beginner-friendly venues, then the way to get more dances is to improve your skills and, secondarily, your appearance. I agree with the suggestion for private lessons, which will more quickly increase your skills. As for appearance, maybe dress better or get a different haircut?

He didn't say that the ladies agree to dance the same song with someone else after they declined. He said that they do follow that part of the etiquette, but if a better dancer asked them to dance first, they would have set aside whatever they were doing and danced.

[samina]

And, as I said, it don't blame them, it's gotta be boring be only do only do 8-10 figures when you know 25, and could be doing 40 with a good lead.


carey, it's not the number of figures that makes the dancing fun and appealing though...it's the connection, the attitude, and the quality of the basics, IMO. if you've got 8-10 basics you can do quite well, you have, in my view, an excellent base for a great time...with the proper attitude.

you could preface your dances with more experienced ladies with something along the lines of "i only know some basic moves, but let's see how much fun we can have with them! :D "

i may be wrong, but i suspect that your repeated rejection, or your perception & interpretation & conclusions about that rejection, has sullied your attitude & expectations at socials, which becomes a far more critical liability as far as attracting partners. even the most generous-hearted social dancer is likely to go out of her way to avoid a dour sourpuss with a negative outlook, so imagine how the more self-involved will respond.

however you can find a positive spin on your dance journey, it may help you considerably to locate it. will be like planting a seed for much happier dance experiences to grow from there...

[jennyisdancing]

He didn't say that the ladies agree to dance the same song with someone else after they declined. He said that they do follow that part of the etiquette, but if a better dancer asked them to dance first, they would have set aside whatever they were doing and danced.

in any case, I guess his point was that the ladies are clearly eager to dance with more advanced guys, and reluctant to dance with beginners, which is a shame.

I agree with samina's advice here:

it's the connection, the attitude, and the quality of the basics, IMO. if you've got 8-10 basics you can do quite well, you have, in my view, an excellent base for a great time...with the proper attitude.

you could preface your dances with more experienced ladies with something along the lines of "i only know some basic moves, but let's see how much fun we can have with them! :grin: "

I love it when beginner guys do this! Now, if BR-folk-square takes this approach, and the women still don't want to dance with him, it's time to find a different venue. Some places just are very cliquey and unfriendly and they can't be changed. :headwall:

[samina]

I love it when beginner guys do this!

from a follower's perspective, i do this all the time when i hit the floor with experienced WCS leads i've never danced with before, and i've found it sets a friendly tone from the beginning and diminishes the anxiety i might otherwise feel as a newb "failing" the hopes and expectations of a more seasoned WCS dancer. being open and warm in this regard inspires those dancers to *want* to dance with me again, and help cultivate another member of their community. i believe that, with social dancing, attitude is perhaps THE most important thing.

Now, if BR-folk-square takes this approach, and the women still don't want to dance with him, it's time to find a different venue. Some places just are very cliquey and unfriendly and they can't be changed. :headwall:

i agree. i've been to places that weren't open-armed to single females showing up without partners. i didn't take it personally...i just stopped going to those venues unless i had a partner...or i'd adjusted my expectations to enjoy whatever came my way.

[waltzguy]

I also agree with the approach of doing basics well. In social occasions, especially where you don't know the level of the lady, use advanced figures as the icing on the cake.

[samina]

The better dancers are in more demand; and the more attractive people are in more demand. So, unless you're in a very friendly, egalitarian venue, it works like this:

Excellent/advanced dancer + attractive: top demand
Excellent/advanced dancer: also top demand if you are in a place with experienced dancers who just want and appreciate skilled partners
Attractive + beginner or poor skills: you'll get some dances (this is especially true for younger, hot women) but not as many as the good dancers
Unattractive + beginner or poor skills: harder to get dances - though good dance etiquette dictates that people should still dance with you anyway to be polite, but they don't always do this, unfortunately.


interesting. does this fit with others' experience as well?

for my part, i judge the desirability of a social dance partner by one criteria...how do i feel when i dance with him?

honestly, i don't give two fiddles what he looks like or how old he is. he could look like slavik but he'd be far lower on a scale of desirability as a dance partner than an overweight, buck-toothed man in his 60s (or 70s, or more...) who knows what to do with a woman in his arms...and graciously, patiently, pleasurably delivers. he'd be a dance god to me on the floor as compared with mr. GQ-but-clueless. :cool:

[waltzguy]

Personally, I don't care much about looks. The looks of a lady will catch my eye first. But the positive attitude and skills of the lady dancer trumps looks, by far.

[jennyisdancing]

interesting. does this fit with others' experience as well?

for my part, i judge the desirability of a social dance partner by one criteria...how do i feel when i dance with him?

honestly, i don't give two fiddles what he looks like or how old he is. he could look like slavik but he'd be far lower on a scale of desirability as a dance partner than an overweight, buck-toothed man in his 60s (or 70s, or more...) who knows what to do with a woman in his arms...and graciously, patiently, pleasurably delivers. he'd be a dance god to me on the floor as compared with mr. GQ-but-clueless. :cool:

I agree with you....please understand that my previous list does not reflect my own preferences. I don't care what my dance partners look like either. It's just my observations from the dance venues in my area. And it seems to be pretty common....I remember a number of previous threads in which a general consensus seemed to be that a young, beautiful woman will get lots of dances even if she's not very skilled. And to be fair, if Brad Pitt or George Clooney walked into a ballroom dance, the women would line up even if those guys had two left feet. Maybe not all women, but a good number of them. It's just human nature.

[samina]

I agree with you....please understand that my previous list does not reflect my own preferences. I don't care what my dance partners look like either. It's just my observations from the dance venues in my area.

gotcha! :D

[fascination]

interesting. does this fit with others' experience as well?

for my part, i judge the desirability of a social dance partner by one criteria...how do i feel when i dance with him?

honestly, i don't give two fiddles what he looks like or how old he is. he could look like slavik but he'd be far lower on a scale of desirability as a dance partner than an overweight, buck-toothed man in his 60s (or 70s, or more...) who knows what to do with a woman in his arms...and graciously, patiently, pleasurably delivers. he'd be a dance god to me on the floor as compared with mr. GQ-but-clueless. :cool:
honestly and sincerely, while I will not fail to notice a good-looking, good-smelling, kind guy who leads well, I simply do not order my preferences at a social dance...I dance with whomever asks, I don't hide from anyone...on the rare occasion that I do the asking, it is generally about picking whoever is leftover and/or whom I know feels a fair level of comfort dancing with me...in that order of priority...

[fascination]

frankly, there are some good leads who are so arrogant and so out to prove themselves that I don't enjoy dancing with them, b/c I know they are all about trying to prove something to me...as to good looks...meh...it's just a bonus if the important stuff is there

[waltzguy]

honestly and sincerely, while I will not fail to notice a good-looking, good-smelling, kind guy who leads well, I simply do not order my preferences at a social dance...I dance with whomever asks, I don't hide from anyone...on the rare occasion that I do the asking, it is generally about picking whoever is leftover and/or whom I know feels a fair level of comfort dancing with me...in that order of priority...

We can only hope that everyone in every community, ladies and men alike, all play as fairly as you do.

[fascination]

well thanks but I am not trying to be a saint...I simply don't choose to warm the bench all night long by being picky...and I don't see any other rational way to approach a social...

[Albanaich]

Or Attractive Dancer + Attractive Phisque wins everytime. . . .

[fascination]

um...no...not every time...as I said...if he happens to be arrogant and needs to continue to try to prove himself...no...he won't be on my list of men to ask unless he is the last one standing

[fascination]

BUT, heavens yes...yes yes yes yes yes... If he is perfect...if he is the total package ...if all other things are equal...if he isn't a horse's hinquarters of a person...yes yes yes albanaich...I would agree with you...you would be ...in my view ...correct...I certainly hope we can now move on from that much overplayed tune

[samina]

honestly and sincerely, while I will not fail to notice a good-looking, good-smelling, kind guy who leads well, I simply do not order my preferences at a social dance...I dance with whomever asks, I don't hide from anyone...on the rare occasion that I do the asking, it is generally about picking whoever is leftover and/or whom I know feels a fair level of comfort dancing with me...in that order of priority...

i don't either, fasc...not when it comes to responding to requests, never.

i was responding to the levels of desirability jenny had highlighted about dancers at a social venus, and shared my own different criteria as to who become my favorite dance partners, that it has nothing to do with looks.

clean-smelling isn't a positive so much as bad-smelling is a serious deterrent.

[fascination]

i don't either, fasc...not when it comes to responding to requests, never.

i was responding to the levels of desirability jenny had highlighted about dancers at a social venus, and shared my own different criteria as to who become my favorite dance partners, that it has nothing to do with looks. clean-smelling definitely helps. :D
yes...I only quoted you b/c I was addressing the same point...and largely agreeing

[samina]

gotcha. :D <<sounding like broken record..>>

[jennyisdancing]

frankly, there are some good leads who are so arrogant and so out to prove themselves that I don't enjoy dancing with them, b/c I know they are all about trying to prove something to me...as to good looks...meh...it's just a bonus if the important stuff is there

True story: When I was a beginner, hardly anyone wanted to dance with me. There were times that I sat most of the night, and was near tears when I left. :(

I went home, licked my wounds and decided to avoid social dances for a while. Many months later, when I returned to social dances with good skills, I began to get asked to dance a lot more. Some of the leaders acted literally as if they had never seen me before...these were the same guys who previously snubbed me! I guess beginner dancers actually are invisible to them. :rolleyes:

I guess if I really cared about 'getting even' I should refuse dances with those guys. But two wrongs don't make a right. I always vowed that when I became a decent dancer, I would show others courtesy and respect, be encouraging to beginners, and try to break the snobbery cycle.

[fascination]

honestly, I only know of maybe one woman who is snobbish wrt whom she will dance with....there are a decent handful of men however who will only dance with the "elect"...but they are in the minority...most folks (men and women) are decent civil folks...I prefer to focus on that...and like you, to be part of the solution rather than part of the problem...and kudos to you jenny...for taking the high road

[tanya_the_dancer]

I guess his point was that the ladies are clearly eager to dance with more advanced guys, and reluctant to dance with beginners, which is a shame.

It's kinda natural human reaction, though. Some are just better at hiding it. As a follow, I know it can be very frustrating to dance with a newish guy. Especially if I am trying to work on my following skills and he sends out a lot of mixed messages in his leads - do I do what I know he wants to do, or do I do what he actually leads (doing the latter usually freaks them out, btw).

Eventually, I just adjusted my expectations of a social. Instead of coming there with intention to dance as much as I can, I come there with intention to socialize and hopefully to get 4-5 good dances, depending on who showed up.

[samina]

I guess if I really cared about 'getting even' I should refuse dances with those guys. But two wrongs don't make a right. I always vowed that when I became a decent dancer, I would show others courtesy and respect, be encouraging to beginners, and try to break the snobbery cycle.

beautiful...love your choices...good for you. that's the way to really win.

[BR-folk-square]

It's interesting for me to hear about this - since, everywhere I dance, there is a surplus of ladies. I'd love to know what it's like to have extra guys around! ...

I am not trying to be critical, but most women around here all claim there always an excess of women, though times I have gone, they have admitted there were more men that night. There is, of course the natural tendency to remember the bad times (last Friday there were not enough men) and forget the good times when one got to dance all the time. Or, perhaps some women just "don't see" the beginner men, leading them to believe there are more women than men? On the other hand, in western square dancing, where I did have experience dancing around the country some years ago, it was true that in the Chicago metro area singles square dances had at most a slight excess of women, but elsewhere had a severe shortage of men, maybe a similar pattern exists in ballroom dancing.

... I agree with the suggestion for private lessons, which will more quickly increase your skills. ...

first I can't afford (enough) private lessons, and without then immediately going and dancing, I would forget what I learned, making them a complete waste. I can't do 10 private lessons, retain that and go dance it. Even formal classes for singles spend over 50% of their time on review for what people (including me) forgot because they did no other dancing for a week, or for people who missed, so it takes forever to make any progress.

I don't want to take the time to master, say, just waltz, then for 3 months go to dances and sit the 90% of the time they aren't doing a waltz, go master foxtrot, then go sit 80% of the time, etc. In English country dancing a newcomer can go and dance 80-100% of the dances the first time they go, depending on the group.

... . As for appearance, maybe dress better or get a different haircut?

My appearance is above average, IMHO. I am not bald and my hair is cut short. There are a few guys whose appearance is bad, I have not kept track of how much they danced. I see other beginner men not dancing, and I see some dancing who don't seem to care that the women they dance with clearly don't want to.

So, yes, I could be dancing 50% percent of the time if I was aggressive about asking women and indifferent to their displeasure at dancing with me. And, to be honest, I probably remember the bad more than the good (see above), maybe it's only 25% of the women who clearly don't want to dance with beginners. Still, it is enough to put me off and make me somewhat afraid to ask any woman to dance.

carey, it's not the number of figures that makes the dancing fun and appealing though...it's the connection, the attitude, and the quality of the basics, IMO. if you've got 8-10 basics you can do quite well, you have, in my view, an excellent base for a great time...with the proper attitude....

Improving one's connection and doing the basics "quite well" cannot be done without practice......

I try to find new women to take lessons with (even maybe semi-private). After one dance, they have decided they didn't want to continue with ballroom, some are now doing other kinds of dancing. Just last wednesday one came out and said in no uncertain terms that was because she felt the other ballroom dancers were unfriendly. She felt snubbed completely during the mixer. She is young, think and plain but pretty.with lovely long hair. For my part, nobody danced with me until they made sure there were no other men available, looking from side to side desperately, avoiding my eye contact, till overcome with a look or resignation, they let me walk up to them..

I think there were several other posts that I am not responding to because they are repetitious, or were just critical of me.

I said I did not have a solution. Here are three ideas, I suspect only the third has a chance of working.

1. A mixer in which everybody is in a circle (and not allowed to move) and every 45 seconds moves on to the next person. This could be used for ECS, WCS, salsa. Most likely many of the good dancers would sit that out, but if there were several, at least the beginners would get to dance with other beginners and the more helpful intermediate dancers. The "line of men and line of women" mixer is similar to this, but much time is wasted standing in line, and the changing of partners is less frequent. Maybe put everybody into one circle, then break it up into mini circles of 6-8 couples, and only rotate within each group? The problem is you would still need 3-6 per evening in different rhythms, not just the typical one mixer in Foxtrot.

2. Probably unenforceable, but label dances or parts of dances as bronze/silver/gold, or even bronze-1 and bronze-2, etc. Maybe the first hour of a dance would be bronze only. Who is going to be policeman to make people get off the floor for dancing a silver move during he bronze time?

3. More or many "women's choice" dances--If there are women who want to encourage beginner men, and they ask beginner men for these dances, it would let us know which women would be receptive to us asking them next time. If there are dances with many more women than men, perhaps giving them numbers 1-5 as they come in and for a given dance, women 1,2,4,5 would ask men first, but that does get complicated.

FWIW, in every other kind of dancing I have done, international folk, various ethnic, modern and traditional square dancing, the people are MUCH more friendly and most go out of their way to help beginners. This may be true to some extent of country western dancers too, there are just fewer dances avaialble, so checking this is on my to-do list. One of my first forays into Ballroom was with a country western dancer. Besides distance (for her) to the ballroom dance, she thought that CW dancers were more friendly.

--Carey

[Anchovynist]

True story: When I was a beginner, hardly anyone wanted to dance with me. There were times that I sat most of the night, and was near tears when I left. :(

I went home, licked my wounds and decided to avoid social dances for a while. Many months later, when I returned to social dances with good skills, I began to get asked to dance a lot more. Some of the leaders acted literally as if they had never seen me before...these were the same guys who previously snubbed me! I guess beginner dancers actually are invisible to them. :rolleyes:

I guess if I really cared about 'getting even' I should refuse dances with those guys. But two wrongs don't make a right. I always vowed that when I became a decent dancer, I would show others courtesy and respect, be encouraging to beginners, and try to break the snobbery cycle.

I often seek out the beginners, partly because I'll look like a hero to them (an ego-boost for me, you see), but also because if I botch a step they won't be able to tell. But really because they enjoy it and I do too.

[etp777]

I'd say it boils down to you dancing in the wrong places. because that unfriendliness definitely doesn't exist the places I've danced ballroom. A nd not just the places where I'm well known, but will show up at others occasionally and definitely do'nt see that around here.