Let's say it is time to find a new instructor...

[Me]

How do you choose a new tango instructor? Is it important to you that the person teach tango full-time? Is it important to you that the person teaches out of a professional dance studio? What sort of qualifications do you seek out in a new tango instructor (paid performance experience, certification, workshop teaching experience)? What are the warning signs of a bad instructor? What would you do differently now, as an educated dancer, as opposed to when you began dancing and chose your first instructor?

Thoughts? Opinions? Please share!



(Note: This thread was inspired from many thoughts and discussions from the ballroom forum in regard to defining professional, amateur, and establishing/not establishing standards of education/certification for professionals.)

[pascal]

I would not choose an A.T. teacher who is a ballroom teacher.
I would not choose a teacher whose students can't be seen in milongas.
I would not choose a teacher who asks you to pay for the whole year when you sign up.
I would not choose a teacher who picks a pupil to demonstrate things.
I would not choose a teacher who was trained before the years of Gustavo/Fabian
I would not choose a teacher who is not inspiring (role-model) when you see him/her dancing.
I would not choose a teacher who never went to BsAs
I would not choose a teacher who says that there is only one way to dance A.T.

Well this eliminates most of the bad teachers with whom I took classes ;)

[Lilly_of_the_valley]

I look at the person in question. Does he/she go to milongas, how he/she dances, how he/she makes the partners look on the floor? Is he/she a sought-after partner? I dance with him/her, and see what happens.
I look at their students, dance with them.
I go to their group lessons/workshops to see about their teaching style.
I ask people who have taken private lessons with that person.
I check their biography, where had they lived and studied/taught before.
Oftentimes I go to a lesson shared with a partner before committing to a private lesson.
Being a full-time teacher is somewhat important to me, but not a deal-breaker. I know of one great local teacher who has a day job ( along with many, many bad ones, alas). So, one has to look at each case individually.
Being an instructor of Argentine tango exclusively is very important.

[Steve Pastor]

What sort of qualifications do you seek out in a new tango instructor (paid performance experience, certification, workshop teaching experience)?

The most important thing to me is that the teacher is able to clearly explain why a particular movement, or series of movements works the way it does. Something like, when you do this, she feels that, and using these few simple principles, she responds like this.

Musicality has always been important to me, and someone who does not include the music in nearly every lesson would not get a yes vote from me.

paid performance experience - performing is SO different than teaching social dance
experience - if you can explain it.... I guess you are experienced
certification - by whom?
workshop teaching experience - if you mean as in festivals, etc, I know excellent teachers who don't go there because they have lives to live.

Style, and the opinion of others in the community, or my own experience in being on the same floor as someone, are both very important to me. (You run into me on the floor, or I have to watch out for you, I don't see the music in your dance... What is it you can teach me?)

If someone allowed taking one class at a time, even if it was a series of classes, I would be more likely to sample them to check the fit between what I was looking for and what/how they teach.

[Peaches]

What sort of qualifications do you seek out in a new tango instructor (paid performance experience, certification, workshop teaching experience)?

The most important thing to me is that the teacher is able to clearly explain why a particular movement, or series of movements works the way it does. Something like, when you do this, she feels that, and using these few simple principles, she responds like this.

Musicality has always been important to me, and someone who does not include the music in nearly every lesson would not get a yes vote from me.

paid performance experience - performing is SO different than teaching social dance
experience - if you can explain it.... I guess you are experienced
certification - by whom?
workshop teaching experience - if you mean as in festivals, etc, I know excellent teachers who don't go there because they have lives to live.

Style, and the opinion of others in the community, or my own experience in being on the same floor as someone, are both very important to me. (You run into me on the floor, or I have to watch out for you, I don't see the music in your dance... What is it you can teach me?)

If someone allowed taking one class at a time, even if it was a series of classes, I would be more likely to sample them to check the fit between what I was looking for and what/how they teach.Steve, I'm in complete agreement with you.

Don't care if they also teach ballrom. I'm biased, as that would eliminate my current teacher. Incidentally, it would also eliminate Angel.

Don't care if they've been to BsAs or not. it's a nice bonuse, but not a requirement. Certainly they can learn in other locations.

Don't care if they do it full time or not, or teach out of a "regular studio" or not. Hell, the regular studio requirement would eliminate a lot of teachers (very good ones) I know of who teach from space in their home.

Don't care if they use a student to demonstrate in a group class setting. Lack of a partner doesn't imply lack of skill or teaching ability.

[Tricia]

Don't care if they use a student to demonstrate in a group class setting. Lack of a partner doesn't imply lack of skill or teaching ability.

my current favourite teacher has a regular demonstrator, but also makes a point of demonstrating in each class with someone randomly picked from the class, to illustrate the point that the leader's job is to make the follower look good; not just the followers who can already dance, but really with any of us.

And he can.

It's terrifying for us as followers at first, but i think it makes the point really well. And in doing so, has set the standard for who I chose to take regular classes from. For me, the criteria are different for special guest teachers.

[Ampster]

Knowing what I know now...

1) Regarding Style:

As a more experienced tanguero, if I wanted a new instructor, first determine WHAT style of AT you want to dance to (i.e. Milonguero, Salon, Nuevo, etc.) this should pair down your list of selections. Instructors do have their specialties.


2) Regarding "Quality of movement"

Now that you know what style of AT you want, go to the milongas. Look for the dancers who move well (i.e. Technique, musicality, connection) and you like to watch dancing AT. Watch for qualities that an experienced Tanguero/Tanguera would spot. Then ask them who they learned from


3) Regarding the instructors

IMHO, doesn't matter if they've been to BsAs or not. There is no scientific evidence that if your from there, you'll dance any better. [On a side note, I know people who've been to BsAs, who don't dance any better--but think they do. They just developed swollen heads]

Not having their own studio should not disqualify them.

If they teach Ballroom, they must be able to "cross over" without "bleed over" (i.e. their AT should not have the big frame, nor look "Waltzy," etc.) I personally know several ballroom instructors who teach AT. They look too ballroomy when they move. Even if they're good at "steps," In a milonga, it looks silly. If your instructor teaches both, make sure these dances do not meld. If they can isolate the two VERY distinctively, then it's a plus for the instructor.

Teach for a living... Should'nt be a problem. I know several REALLY good AT instructors WITH day jobs (some dance better than the pros)

Of course, ethics plays a big part in the decision making.

Performances... well, if the instructors stand out dancing socially would be a big factor. To me, that brings a level of expertise elevating the simple "Walking" into an art form. The performances, well, anyone can perform. Its the level of expertise that matters. I would not want to be taught steps (performance). I develop those on my own already. I want to be taught techniques of movement in AT.


(4) Regarding "Bad Signs"
Can only teach steps
Cannot communicate/hard to understand regardless of how good they think they are.
Sleazy
Charges too much upfront/upsells, hidden fees, contracts, has a regimented curricullum
Can only dance in performances
Will only dance with good dancers (cannot/does not drive beginners)
Cannot dance socially
Does not understand the essence of AT (i.e. just knows steps)
Does not know, understands, nor appreciates AT traditions (i.e. cabeceo, lines/speed of dance, abbrazzo, etc.)


So, knowing wah I know now: (1) + (2) + (3) = A good idea of the next instructor I would consult

[Gssh]

This is a very difficult question. My personal strategy has been that when i felt that it was time to change teachers to not get a new teacher but instead spend the time/money on going to milongas and practicas.

After a while it became obvious that there was some aspect of my dance that i wanted to work on in more detail, like incorporating more nuevo, or making things flow more, or doing some classsical milonga. Or i saw a somebody on the dancefloor that impressed me with something. Then i researched who in my community was well regarded in that aspect, and i took a few lessons from them. If the things i learned meshed with my tango, and had a positive effect on my social dance i took more, if the things were not working for me i didn't. I had teachers who were quite unable to communicate, i had teachers who taught only steps, i had teachers who were quite ballroomy, and i learned interesting things from them. I had also truly excellent, amazing teachers that did not do anything for me personally. Some of them i revisited after a few years and i had developed enough to gain from their instruction. Some of them were still useless for me.

The test of a teacher is for me if their instruction does something for me at the next milonga i dance at.

Gssh

P.S. What i would do different now that i am not a raw beginner anymore? Nothing really, except skipping my first instructor - and the reason i switched away from her was in sync with what i wrote above: I took classes, i thought i had a basic grasp on things and when i went to a milonga it didn't work. I was not able to lead followers i did not know, i was not able to follow the flow of the dancefloor, i was not able to react to anything happening on the dancefloor.

[nucat78]

Insisting on a teacher who only teaches tango would pretty much end my Argentine "career" as I know of nobody within 40 miles of here who teaches strictly tango. Perhaps I'm not hardcore enough but driving back into Chicago proper for lessons a couple times a week is not practicable, nor is staying late in the city.

But my teacher here does own his own ballroom studio and hosts his own milongas.

[kieronneedscake]

Well put nucat78, how sweet it would be if we all had such choices to make.

[jennyisdancing]

Well put nucat78, how sweet it would be if we all had such choices to make.

Guess I'm lucky that way, there are quite a few tango-only teachers in my area. However, that doesn't mean all of them are good. (I've well-documented my struggles in the "newbie lost in tango" thread).

Now I've finally found a good tango teacher, and I think what makes a good one is largely what makes any kind of teacher a good one:

1. Knows the material
2. Can organize the material into a teaching plan
3. Can clearly communicate
4. Can adapt teaching methods to student's learning style
5. Monitors and evaluates the student to find areas to correct or improve
6. Is a 'people person' who makes students feel comfortable and encourages them to do their best

My wonderful new tango teacher is not from Argentina, is not a 'famous name' tango dancer, and her name never came up when I asked other dancers to recommend a good teacher. She is, however, a former schoolteacher, which explains why her tango lessons are so excellent; she meets all the criteria above. And for what it's worth, she is also an excellent social dancer and very much believes in welcoming newcomers to the tango community. :)

[Me]

Just wanted to say I didn't post and run! Am just quietly reading. :) Thank you everybody for your thoughts so far. Interesting stuff!

[bordertangoman]

I would not choose an A.T. teacher who is a ballroom teacher.
tick
I would not choose a teacher whose students can't be seen in milongas.
tick
I would not choose a teacher who asks you to pay for the whole year when you sign up.
tick
I would not choose a teacher who picks a pupil to demonstrate things.
Sometimes happens if my co-teacher is busy prattling to someone
I would not choose a teacher who was trained before the years of Gustavo/Fabian
tick
I would not choose a teacher who is not inspiring (role-model) when you see him/her dancing.
Too modest to know if I inspire others
I would not choose a teacher who never went to BsAs
Cross; I'm the world's worst traveller havn't been abroad
I would not choose a teacher who says that there is only one way to dance A.T.
tick

( Do you like Green Eggs and Ham?)

[Novice]

As I am in search of a new instructor myself (and we debatably have too many to choose from in our community), I have been weighing a bunch of factors.

I look at them on the floor. Is this a style that I want to learn? Do their partners look comfortable? Do they look creative? Subtle? Smooth? If the instructor is a follow, I want to look at her and think "I want to dance like that!" If the instructor is a lead, I want to look at him and be able to see some of the intricacy of his connection (musicality, creativity, tiny movements, smoothness, consideration for/adaptation to his partner). As a follower, navigation skills are minor. If I were taking leading instructions it would be a different matter, but I primarily want someone who makes the dance feel good.

I find that one of the more important things I want to know is why they teach AT. If they teach purely because they enjoy it and teaching allows them to make a living off of something they enjoy, it's a bit of a red flag. It's fine if that's only one motivation, but I want someone who is teaching to reach out to others and improve their community. These are the ones who have the highest standards for themselves as well as for their students, and thus will give me the greatest challenge and gain.

Finally, I ask questions of instructors at practicas. This is the ultimate test, as the ones who make the biggest difference are the ones I want to seek for private lessons. Are they helpful/clear? Do they make a lasting impression? Is what they tell me reasonably consistent with what else I know of AT? If I end my time with them more confused than before and have to ask another instructor about it, I'm obviously not going back!

On the other hand, one man has twice drastically changed my dance for the better long term (and given me at least 6 months of material to work on) in a matter of a couple tandas. He doesn't have his own studio. He has a day job. He appears to be a bit of a snob. He can be condescending at times. But he is respected in our community. He teaches purely because he wants the rest of us to improve. He has years of experience, is clear, and makes me want more. So when I have funds to take private lessons again, I'm going back. :)

[Angel HI]

I would not choose an A.T. teacher who is a ballroom teacher.


hmm. Many argentines teach BR in BsAs.

I would not choose a teacher who picks a pupil to demonstrate things.

hmm. IMHO, demonstrating with each student that one can shows that the step can be done, enhances camaraderie and fellowship, gives each pupil a moment of personal attention, ...need I go on?

I would not choose a teacher who was trained before the years of Gustavo/Fabian

WHAT??

I would not choose a teacher who never went to BsAs

With so many argentines and other expert AT dancers around the world, what's the point...or, necessity of going to BsAs?

[Heather2007]

At school my English teacher was brilliant. My maths teacher on the other hand was rubbish. Little wonder then that I passed my English exams and failed miserably in Maths. Note, though, that both teachers knew their onions, went to Uni and obtained their teaching degrees. My point here is that no matter how good somebody looks on the dancefloor, does not always mean they will excel at passing that brilliance over to their student.

A good teacher should excel at being brilliant people person. Thus:

Demonstrates sympathy and support towards student

"Put right" without making the student "feel wrong" (nobody likes feeling like a prat even when they have just demonstrated brilliantly how to do a prattish thing).

100% undivided attention at all times (and no clock-watching). Be there not elsewhere.

Let the student feel as if they are the only person in the world when talking to them.

Recognise the differing abilties in a student - and teach accordingly. Never ASSUME or PRESUME. Nothing. Ever.

Never have favourites. (Okay, we all do - but never show it).

In that 90 mins, your students become your bezzy mates and you want the best for each and every one of them.

At end of class ask the students to stop by with any questions/problems. ANYTIME

And of course, lastly, know how to dance AT.

[Heather2007]

Musicality has always been important to me, and someone who does not include the music in nearly every lesson would not get a yes vote from me.

You and me both. Unfortunately (here anyway) many do not.

[Joe]

Is it important to you that the person teach tango full-time?
Since I suspect it's difficult to earn a living teaching tango full-time, I'd have no problem with a teacher who does something else for a living. Ya gotta eat, as you've pointed out in another thread.

[Peaches]

In thinking about this a bit more...

I want a teacher who can teach me. He may be a great teacher, but if he can't explain in ways that I can understand, it just isn't going to work. Some people I click with and learn well from, others I don't. And, along those lines, I generally want my teacher to be a man.

A lot has been mentioned about style. I like the style I've learned so far, and it's probably the style I'll stay with for a good long time. That said, as I look for another/a new teacher, I'm specifically going to be looking for a teacher who either 1)dances a different style, or 2)focuses on something different. I want a difference in perspective. I may choose to neve dance that different style, but I want to learn from someone who does, to get that insight.

Along similar lines of getting a different perspective, DH keeps urging me to find an older teacher--someone with more life experience and possibly more dance experience. It's his opinion, coming from a music standpoint, that an older teacher will have a different way of looking at things solely by virtue of more experience in life, and that it will translate to dancing. It's something to think about at any rate.

[Heather2007]

DH keeps urging me to find an older teacher--someone with more life experience and possibly more dance experience. It's his opinion, coming from a music standpoint, that an older teacher will have a different way of looking at things solely by virtue of more experience in life, and that it will translate to dancing. It's something to think about at any rate.

Hmm - Interesting. And you've touched upon something that came up in a discussion with some ladies recently and why they preferred older (male) teachers.

A New Thread on the topic perhaps? Do Followers prefer the older guys or the younger ones - and why?

[Peaches]

Granted, my current teacher is older than me. By six years.

DH is of the opinion that finding a teacher who's 20-30 years older would be interesting.

[bordertangoman]

A good teacher should excel at being brilliant people person. Thus:.

Well I'm going to disagree with this since I'm not a brilliant people person although I agree it helps but I am a brilliant body person:
I can get people's bodies to start doing what they need to do.

Demonstrates sympathy and support towards student

"Put right" without making the student "feel wrong" (nobody likes feeling like a prat even when they have just demonstrated brilliantly how to do a prattish thing).

100% undivided attention at all times (and no clock-watching). Be there not elsewhere.

Let the student feel as if they are the only person in the world when talking to them.

Recognise the differing abilties in a student - and teach accordingly. Never ASSUME or PRESUME. Nothing. Ever.

Never have favourites. (Okay, we all do - but never show it).
And of course, lastly, know how to dance AT.

Fine; nothing wrong with that; I prefer carrot to stick when teaching

In that 90 mins, your students become your bezzy mates and you want the best for each and every one of them.
At end of class ask the students to stop by with any questions/problems. ANYTIME



That's going way too far; they can ask questions in the class or in a practica but when I'm dancing I am no longer a teacher; and that takes an effort on my part

[Heather2007]

Well I'm going to disagree with this since I'm not a brilliant people person

You could be?

That's going way too far; they can ask questions in the class or in a practica but when I'm dancing I am no longer a teacher; and that takes an effort on my part

Did I say anything about going up to a teacher while they're dancing and asking them questions? No. (Although I get questions during a milonga, even whilst I'm dancnig. Am I bovvered - am I heck. But that's me). My statement was meant to mean IMMEDIATELY after the class. Clear now?

[Me]

Well so far I am finding this very interesting!

I can understand some of the points people are making, but the most profound trend here that puzzles me is an apparrent bias toward AT instructors who also teach ballroom. Some respondents here cite this as an immediate deal breaker.

Can some of the people who feel strongly about this please elaborate as to why you would not chose an AT instructor if they also teach ballroom? Can others who are riding the fence or have at least heard this argument made before provide input as well? Thanks!

[kieronneedscake]

I'm guessing that the ballroom presence might imply that teachers treat AT as just another dance in the syllabus, and have not delved into its depths to the degree necessary to really understand AT. Take a look at some of the strictly come dancing video clips and you'll see exactly what I'm talking about.

Their skills in the ballroom allow them to create something that looks like AT, but may not have the emphasis in the right place - showy tango for an audience as opposed to a movement dialogue between two dancers, frames instead of embraces. That's my interpretation.

None of this says that ballroom teachers cannot understand AT, I'm sure many pure AT teachers also make mistakes like these. It is all too common for people to blinker themselves and totally miss a whole dimension to a dance, and multi-discipline teachers have more chance of not "getting" it.

[Lilly_of_the_valley]

Well so far I am finding this very interesting!

I can understand some of the points people are making, but the most profound trend here that puzzles me is an apparrent bias toward AT instructors who also teach ballroom. Some respondents here cite this as an immediate deal breaker.

Can some of the people who feel strongly about this please elaborate as to why you would not chose an AT instructor if they also teach ballroom? Can others who are riding the fence or have at least heard this argument made before provide input as well? Thanks!

I think I just want to learn from a person whose specialty is AT. We are spoiled here, we have that choice.
When I was going to compete in International Standard, I did the same thing -- found an instructor whose specialty was International Standard. Somebody who had a successful competitive experience in that form of dance, was a great instructor and a coach for competitive couples, whose students did very well.

Same with AT. If I aspire to be a beautiful tango dancer and a desirable partner in milongas, I want to learn from somebody who is all that, and a great instructor on top of that. Perhaps, there are ballroom dance teachers who are all that, but I have not seen any of them yet. Although, I have seen those who used to teach ballroom, but then made AT their specialty.

I have been to classes given by ballroom dance teachers. Their approach to AT seems to be very different. (Of course, there are instructors, who are exclusive to AT, and their approach is different from what I seek in a tango instructor, too).

Tango teachers in Argentina teaching ballroom too is not the same thing, I believe. That happens within a different culture context.

Again, that is just my experience in a given community inundated by teachers (AT and ballroom), local and visiting. Very possibly, wonderful AT instructors and milongueros who also teach ballroom dancing exist out there. If I meet one, I will be very happy to learn from that person. It is not a religious question.
That is a question of supply and demand, also. For example, my former dancesport instructor didn't have time to teach merengue on the side even if he wanted to :) He had his hands full with his Standard students. I understand that in many geographical areas, a dance teacher cannot survive if he or she doesn't teach several, sometimes very different, dances.

[jennyisdancing]

Granted, my current teacher is older than me. By six years.

DH is of the opinion that finding a teacher who's 20-30 years older would be interesting.

Peaches - I've had a couple of older male teachers and actually they weren't the best thing for me. They are wonderful leaders and delightful to dance with, just not the best teachers for women, necessarily. Possibly the older guys take a paternalistic attitude where they see all the dance technique as the man's responsibility, and that the lady should be made to feel comfortable, and not be criticized. That's very gallant and nice in a social dance setting, but not if you're paying them to teach you. That's just my experience, I'm not saying every older guy is this way.

My new teacher is a woman, and I'm finding her much more helpful. It's so useful to have someone who fully understands the follower's role.

[bastet]

I'm guessing that the ballroom presence might imply that teachers treat AT as just another dance in the syllabus, and have not delved into its depths to the degree necessary to really understand AT. Take a look at some of the strictly come dancing video clips and you'll see exactly what I'm talking about.

Their skills in the ballroom allow them to create something that looks like AT, but may not have the emphasis in the right place - showy tango for an audience as opposed to a movement dialogue between two dancers, frames instead of embraces. That's my interpretation.

None of this says that ballroom teachers cannot understand AT, I'm sure many pure AT teachers also make mistakes like these. It is all too common for people to blinker themselves and totally miss a whole dimension to a dance, and multi-discipline teachers have more chance of not "getting" it.

So far- the only people I have met who have danced and taught both ballroom and AT have fit in to this category...making AT more like just new steps to learn and not giving me the impression of fully understanding the dance or how it operates and what makes it different from ballroom.

As Kieron said, that doesn't mean there aren't a few teachers who can cross the lines and do each dance justice...but so far, the few I have met have not done that.

[bordertangoman]

One of my co-teachers has come from a ball room background she teaches just fine but it it her a while to 'get' AT.

I also pick up students who migrate from an AT class taught by a ballroom couple. The feedback I get is that the focus is on steps not leading and following (and I heard through the grapevine that they had a plan to take over the AT universe through a piece of legislataion that would require AT teachers have a formal qualification and quite honestly i am done with studying and exams. The legislation hasn't happened because, I believe, of opposition by folk dance teachers. I'll stop there before I go off om an anarchic rant)

[Peaches]

Peaches - I've had a couple of older male teachers and actually they weren't the best thing for me. They are wonderful leaders and delightful to dance with, just not the best teachers for women, necessarily. Possibly the older guys take a paternalistic attitude where they see all the dance technique as the man's responsibility, and that the lady should be made to feel comfortable, and not be criticized. That's very gallant and nice in a social dance setting, but not if you're paying them to teach you. That's just my experience, I'm not saying every older guy is this way.

My new teacher is a woman, and I'm finding her much more helpful. It's so useful to have someone who fully understands the follower's role.*shrug* To each their own, I suppose. I "can't" learn from women. I get pig-headed and competitive and resentful, no matter how much or how hard I try to control it.

[Steve Pastor]

There is a not so common saying among AT dancers (I haven't seen it for a while), "Ballroom competes, Argentine Tango connects."

This comment from a post at another site. "I usually just tell them that Argentine tango is a social dance and does not have competitions."

There are a few AT competitions, but they are very rare. And I have yet to hear someone say that they are taking lessons because they will be in a competition and want to do well.
There is also the grading, and "levels" that are used frequently in ballroom. It all seems to be very set in stone. AT is much freer.
"Strictly Ballroom" is still one of my favortie movies.
The freedom to develop your own style is very appealing. Being told you must hold your hand like this or you will lose points because someone will be judging you, either as a competitor, or to determine if you are in X level... Is something else entirely.
AT isn't about you and someone who will judge you. It is about you and your partner and the music and the people on the dance floor with you.
Although many AT dancers will agrue about style, etc, when all is said and done, no one is in charge.
These attitudes carry over into other aspects of "Argentine Tango life in general" in some cases. For instance in the kind of people that stick around for a while, or the laissez faire attitude about drop in classes vs. one year contracts.

As with all stereotypes, there is a reason they exist; but we should all be aware of the fact that in any particluar situation, the stereotype might not apply.

[Gssh]

AT isn't about you ___and someone who will judge you._
It is about you ______and your partner and the music and the people on the dance floor with you._

I fail to see the difference ;)

Gssh

[Joe]

Yeah, you may not be being judged for a numerical score, but you're certainly being judged for whether or not you're worth another tanda (or even the next dance of the current one!). ;)

[Peaches]

Yeah, you may not be being judged for a numerical score, but you're certainly being judged for whether or not you're worth another tanda (or even the next dance of the current one!). ;)Ahh...but it's a question of who you're dancing for. Dancing for a judge, versus dancing for yourself and your partner. Dancing to look good, versus dancing to feel good. Technical excellence, versus emotional and musical excellence. Less than stellar technique will still get you pretty far with AT, if you can truly connect with your partner.

And it (generally) takes a whole hell of a lot to not merit the next dance of the current tanda.

[dchester]

Yeah, you may not be being judged for a numerical score, but you're certainly being judged for whether or not you're worth another tanda (or even the next dance of the current one!). ;)
Not to mention that at some places, you are also being judged by the people watching, to determine if you are worthy of them accepting an invitation to dance.

IMO, to the person you are dancing with, it's how you feel (or connect), but to observers, it's how you look (or what they see). Like you are saying, it's not a numerical system, but it's still there.

[Ampster]

I can understand some of the points people are making, but the most profound trend here that puzzles me is an apparrent bias toward AT instructors who also teach ballroom. Some respondents here cite this as an immediate deal breaker.

Can some of the people who feel strongly about this please elaborate as to why you would not chose an AT instructor if they also teach ballroom?

Let me try to explain this. In MY experience, I would not have a problem with a teacher who teaches AT and ballroom IF he/she can DISTINCTLY SEPARATE the two. Why? Let me explain...

I have several friends who are both professional Ballroom + AT instructors. I also have friends who are professional AT only instructors.

My friends in AT, who are the AT only professionals do better, because they have a deep understanding of "Connection" and excellent lead/follows within the parameters of AT. They also have the right muscle memory to activate the appropriate muscle groups appropriate to AT. So when they go to a milonga, they look like they belong, and are beautiful to watch because of the quality of their movement.

My friends who teach both AT and Ballroom, teach with a "Ballroom mentality," (i.e. step patterns and sequences) with little connection. Also a less understanding of a dynamic lead/follow concept. They rely more on memorized movement. Furthermore, their muscle memory in Ballroom overwhelms the AT muscle memory, because of the rigor in the forms necessary for ballroom. So, when they go to a milonga, they don't look quite right because they look "Ballroomy" (e.g. Big frames (NOT an embrace), head back, heel leads, too big a stride, lead through connection point (Not leads via chest), etc.)

[jennyisdancing]

My friends who teach both AT and Ballroom, teach with a "Ballroom mentality," (i.e. step patterns and sequences) with little connection. Also a less understanding of a dynamic lead/follow concept. They rely more on memorized movement. Furthermore, their muscle memory in Ballroom overwhelms the AT muscle memory, because of the rigor in the forms necessary for ballroom. So, when they go to a milonga, they don't look quite right because they look "Ballroomy" (e.g. Big frames (NOT an embrace), head back, heel leads, too big a stride, lead through connection point (Not leads via chest), etc.)

I would ask, if their posture, frame, footwork and leading are ballroom style, then are they really doing AT at all? Or is it more accurate to say they are doing AT-influenced ballroom dancing? And I'm curious to know if they, or their students are able to lead and follow well with others who have been trained more traditionally in AT?

[bordertangoman]

I would ask, if their posture, frame, footwork and leading are ballroom style, then are they really doing AT at all? Or is it more accurate to say they are doing AT-influenced ballroom dancing? And I'm curious to know if they, or their students are able to lead and follow well with others who have been trained more traditionally in AT?

I have noticed that ballroomies can't cope with cross system and try to maintain parallel feet by hopping onto the 'wrong' foot (and getting their toes trodden on in the process)
they also seem to hook onto patterns eg if I do the same sequence of steps twice they will assume its coming a third time.

[Steve Pastor]

The difference between being judged in a performance by a judge, and being judged by your peers is that the judges, wittingly or otherwise, create a standard. Dancers who seek the approval of the judges will respond to the standards of the judges in determining how they dance. Thus, a small number of people create the community standard.

When there are no judges who are formally, and quite obviously set above the community, the community itself, or rather everyone in the community, creates their own standard (or has the choice of deciding which standard they want to adopt).

Judges who are set apart and above are characteristic of a top down system.
Not having judges, or rather, when you are judged only by your peers, is more characteristic of a bottom up system. Or at the very least, is a much more flexible environment.

Again, these are generalizations, but I DO think they are helpful in answering Me's question.

[spectator]

I think it depends on where you live, in a big city, ones you see at milongas dancing in *sensible* and musical way when everyone else around is being frankly dangerous i.e. negracha some nights. In a provincial area there are usually two types of tango instructor: one lot who are professional dance teachers and have ballroom/latin classes too and the other lot who danced Tango some where else and moved to the area and wanted to start their own community for the love of it. my preference would be for the latter, cheerful amateurs. They want to teach you how to dance socially and to get more people so they can dance with them rather than seeing it as another business opportunity.

[Angel HI]

I have found it very interesting to sit in the dark, and just read this thread. It has missed, or danced around (pardon the pun) some key things.

IMO, to the person you are dancing with, it's how you feel (or connect), but to observers, it's how you look (or what they see). Like you are saying, it's not a numerical system, but it's still there.

This pretty much caps that conversation.

Let me try to explain this. In MY experience, I would not have a problem with a teacher who teaches AT and ballroom IF he/she can DISTINCTLY SEPARATE the two.

Exactly. What has been missed is it's not whether one dances/teaches BR or AT, rather what one dances/teaches well.

My friends in AT, who are the AT only professionals do better, because they have a deep understanding of "Connection" and excellent lead/follows within the parameters of AT. ...they look like they belong, and are beautiful to watch because of the quality of their movement.

This is only part of the reason, and the second part, at that. I vest to say that the principal reason is that it is all that they do. If one does AT 24/7, all things equalled, one will learn/exceed further than the dancer only doing it p/t.

My friends who teach both AT and Ballroom, teach with a "Ballroom mentality," (i.e. step patterns and sequences) with little connection. Also a less understanding of a dynamic lead/follow concept.

And, this has been a huge argument of mine for a very long time.

BR should not be taught like this, either! Int'l Fox is one of the most beautiful dances on the planet. Though, taught and danced the way it is...he// no! Most of us have never seen a "real" IFT danced with all that it offers. BRers are trained to destroy their dancing by minimizing it to what you have very eloquently called the "BR mentality". But know that "good" ballroom is every bit taught with the same connection, understanding of a dynamic lead/follow concept, and even improvisation as AT. I know...I've had it shoved down my throat thay way!