more tango nuevo

[bordertangoman]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLnl8asahy8&feature=related

[kieronneedscake]

Yuck. That felt like an exercise in architecture rather than dancing. Technique sound, but it felt like it was more strength than flow. Respect for the slowness of it, and I hasten to add, far better than I can do.

[Me]

Thank you for posting the clip!

First I would like to say the dancers are not bad. They are, however, in dire need of some originality.


My opinions on the style they are dancing, and why I wish they would find something different for themselves:

- For starters, I have grown to truly detest that horribly, horribly overplayed Narcotango song. I watched the first part of this dancing clip only because it was posted to the DF. If I had been browing Youtube and found it, I would have immediately clicked out.

- I am also bored with nuevo dancers using the same stock moves.

Lady's part: Walk walk walk, big leg swing, walk walk walk, wrap my leg around the guy, walk walk walk, another big leg swing...

Guy's part: Walk walk walk, pause, walk walk walk, pause, walk walk walk, ZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...

- Lastly, I am also completely bored with nuevo dancers using the same, thoroughly deadpan, "bored magazine model" expression on the face. Models are coached to use these expressions to draw attention away from themselves and to the clothing. It's the kiss of death for any performance, in my opinion, and so many nuevos dancer seem to use it.

Again, not ripping the dancers - and again, thank you for posting the clip!

[kieronneedscake]

Actually, Me's post has struck a chord with all the social nuevo dancing I have seen. It lacks heart and emotion, being mostly a continual challenge of choreography and balance.

The really great nuevo dancers can bring their style to life, but those less accomplished (read: most) tend to kill it in favour of fanciful leg motion. I think perhaps the gymnastic element of nuevo is really really difficult to master enough to remain connected the whole way through.

Perhaps they love every single second they dance together, but the message they convey to the outside world is one of disinterest and routine. Only nuevo can make a 45 degree lean look dull.

Narcotango is probably one of the most difficult pieces of music to make anything interesting out of since it is so uniform for so many minutes.

[bordertangoman]

- Lastly, I am also completely bored with nuevo dancers using the same, thoroughly deadpan, "bored magazine model" expression on the face. Models are coached to use these expressions to draw attention away from themselves and to the clothing. It's the kiss of death for any performance, in my opinion, and so many nuevos dancer seem to use it.



that's an interesting comment and could apply to pretty much any style of social tango dancer that I know in fact a smile only happens if we make a mistake and start giggling about it.

And maybe one could make the same observation about Chan Park's Zen tango dancers?

If my partner smiled more than the Mona Lisa during a dance I would turn round to looka t whatever she was looking at!

[bordertangoman]

Anyway i was trying to figure out what the essence of this style is as I am trying to work out to teach people how to move with flow and not get stuck in everything being rhythm. I have no problem in doing things slow but I see my students crumple mentally if they can't hear a tac tac tac in the music.

[Angel HI]

Reserving comment. Interesting posts, though. Glad Me picked up on some interesting things about the maojoral misconception of what nuevo is.

[bordertangoman]

so what is the majoral misconception of what nuevo is and what is nuevo?

[bordertangoman]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNeMrWtF_N4&feature=related

what about this?

[Peaches]

Liked the first clip better, but have to admit I found it kind of boring. But that's just my take on their take of the music...I just didn't care for their interpretation.

Regarding the deadpan expression--I see that on the vast majority of dancers, regardless of style. I know I'm the same way. It's not lack of emotion, necessarily, just concentration on anything and everything other than what my face is doing. If I wanted to think about facial expressions and emoting for other people, I'd be interested in ballroom. Which I'm not. (In fact, I hate the ballroom emoting.)

I don't see how it's a big deal, though, that they look like they're not enjoying it. I'm sure they probably are enjoying themselves--else, why would they spend enough time practicing and dancing together to get to the point that they're performing, eh? How many times have we all said, on this forum, that so much of the joy of AT is what goes on between the dancers themselves, invisible to anyone watching. Why should this be any different?

(And, ftr, I like nuevo just as I enjoy salon and apilado and any mix of them and anything else. If it's done well, it's great.)

[jhpark]

so, this is probably a stupid question, but what makes the first video tango nuevo? okay, i only watched the first two minutes (the song bored me pretty quickly), but i saw lots of sacadas, ganchos, blocks, leg wraps, colgadas, etc. all in open.

wasn't all that done in 'traditional' tango as well? what's new about it? is it the predominance of those kinds of motions?

i guess i'm curious because i don't see myself as adhering to any particular style, at least not consciously. definitely not 'milongeuro' -- definitely not nuevo. elements of both, probably... but whenever i read that such and such is supposed to be a distinctive of one style or other, i end up thinking, isn't that just a subset of tango?

when i care to think about it, i get confused...

[Peaches]

Er...I know it when I see it???

It is a subset, though, I'd say.

[Me]

Regarding the deadpan expression--I see that on the vast majority of dancers, regardless of style. I know I'm the same way. It's not lack of emotion, necessarily, just concentration on anything and everything other than what my face is doing. If I wanted to think about facial expressions and emoting for other people, I'd be interested in ballroom. Which I'm not. (In fact, I hate the ballroom emoting.)


Yes I agree 100%! Paso Doble in dancesport is probably one of the worst for this. The reason I hate this mugging and prancing so much is because it is a prime example of bad theatrics. It is extremely fake and bad to the point that it is painful to watch and detracts from the dancing. Part of performing is to make things convincing. Make the foxtrot look easy. Smile as though you are enjoying it - don't plaster a big ole Joker smile on your face and stick your chin in the air!


I don't see how it's a big deal, though, that they look like they're not enjoying it. I'm sure they probably are enjoying themselves--else, why would they spend enough time practicing and dancing together to get to the point that they're performing, eh? How many times have we all said, on this forum, that so much of the joy of AT is what goes on between the dancers themselves, invisible to anyone watching. Why should this be any different?


I believe this should be different because it is a performance that should (ideally) engage peoples' interest and make them feel involved. And you are right - many people say the tango is about what those two people feel, period, regardless of what others might see or think. I think this is part of the "Tango performances aren't real tango" debate.

[Me]

so, this is probably a stupid question, but what makes the first video tango nuevo? okay, i only watched the first two minutes (the song bored me pretty quickly), but i saw lots of sacadas, ganchos, blocks, leg wraps, colgadas, etc. all in open.

wasn't all that done in 'traditional' tango as well? what's new about it? is it the predominance of those kinds of motions?

i guess i'm curious because i don't see myself as adhering to any particular style, at least not consciously. definitely not 'milongeuro' -- definitely not nuevo. elements of both, probably... but whenever i read that such and such is supposed to be a distinctive of one style or other, i end up thinking, isn't that just a subset of tango?

when i care to think about it, i get confused...

I admit I have the sort of idea that Peaches has... "I'll know it when I see it." Nuevo is my least studied style to date. (Not because I don't like it - There's just so much out there!)

I don't know if you have access to any of the recent Cosmotango DVDs but the last two have quite a bit of good nuevo.

[Peaches]

I believe this should be different because it is a performance that should (ideally) engage peoples' interest and make them feel involved. And you are right - many people say the tango is about what those two people feel, period, regardless of what others might see or think. I think this is part of the "Tango performances aren't real tango" debate.Heh...that debate... I think it depends on the audience. If it's for an experienced AT-dancing crowd, then making them feel involved is vastly less important, and engaging the interest comes from good musicality and good technique.

If it's for a non-AT-dancing crowd, then...well, flashy and showy wins the day.

[spectator]

so, this is probably a stupid question, but what makes the first video tango nuevo? okay, i only watched the first two minutes (the song bored me pretty quickly), but i saw lots of sacadas, ganchos, blocks, leg wraps, colgadas, etc. all in open.

wasn't all that done in 'traditional' tango as well? what's new about it? is it the predominance of those kinds of motions?

i guess i'm curious because i don't see myself as adhering to any particular style, at least not consciously. definitely not 'milongeuro' -- definitely not nuevo. elements of both, probably... but whenever i read that such and such is supposed to be a distinctive of one style or other, i end up thinking, isn't that just a subset of tango?

when i care to think about it, i get confused...
my impression was that ganchos, leg wraps, big sacadas and definately colgadas are all nuevo tango, or things that are social faux pas in traditional tango. I'm no expert, and happy to accept that I'm wrong, but friends who have come back from BA say they only see those at places like practica X.

[Angel HI]

Heh...that debate... I think it depends on the audience.

Though your post is understood, it is indeed about the audience, but more about the intent. If one is dancing socially, the intent (making the audience feel involved is moot). If one is performing, then the intent (making the audience feel involved is of the utmost importance. And, it should be mentioned that a good couple can do this w/wo flashy nonsense.

my impression was that ganchos, leg wraps, big sacadas and definately colgadas are all nuevo tango, or things that are social faux pas in traditional tango. .... but friends who have come back from BA say they only see those at places like practica X.

Partly correct. Voleos/ganchos/wee sacadas are mainstays of traditional tango, though not as prevalent in all styles. The big, flashy crap that most people "think" is impressive is a social faux pas in most places. In BsAs, all of it is done. It's just that, in many places, there is a time and place for doing it, and unlike many places in the U.S., this is respected.

[bordertangoman]

Voleos/ganchos/wee sacadas are mainstays of traditional tango, though not as prevalent in all styles. The big, flashy crap that most people "think" is impressive is a social faux pas in most places. In BsAs, all of it is done. It's just that, in many places, there is a time and place for doing it, and unlike many places in the U.S., this is respected.


i would agree with this but I would say that the 'fancy stuff' is more done on stage;
Small sacadas and boloes are very nice but here is hard to find dancers who do them well enough to keep them as a small fiure suitable for a busy dance floor

[Steve Pastor]

I finally had a chance to look at "Tango Bar" again. I seemed to remember that there was an awful lot of the moves that are usually thought of as nuevo in there. There is in particluar one scene in which dancers dance to "La Comparsita'. They appear to be in very close proximity to each other, based on the positions of their feet. You see, the first 2/3 of the scene shows only their feet and legs. Again, many many, very complicated movements and "foot play". Finally, we see the dancers from the chest up and note they they are all probably in their 60s or older.
The film has a 1988 copyright.
Fabian Salas states that the first meetings of their "Tango Investigations" happened "before 1990", and most sources list the years 1995 - 1997 as the years for the Tango Investigation Group". So it is extremely unlikely that the filmed performances were influenced by "Nuevo".
One thing to take away is that it is possible to do these things on the social dance floor by taking small steps and small movements. But it would take both partners would have to be pretty good to pull it off. What is very difficult is to do these things precisely enough to not run into or kick others. And what is probably most difficult is to do them as an expression of the music.

[Angel HI]

Exactly.

[opendoor]

...what about this?

I like their dancing, look at their faces. Look at the audience. Its fun. Does it matter then, that he is shaking with his arms like a policeman?

[Me]

Welcome to the DF opendoor!

I LOVE your avatar. :) Where did you find that hilarious picture? It reminds me so much of Buster Keaton.

[opendoor]

... Where did you find that hilarious picture? It reminds me so much of Buster Keaton.

Hi Me,

you are right, that is Buster Keaton, and thats the story: I´m just dancing for a short time (2 years) and I am an autodidact. That means, I am my own teacher. About Christmas I saw a couple dancing the carpa and I knew that it would be my next lesson. So I browsed the web to get the steps and the vids. And somehow, with the keywords carpa, calesita e.g. I came across that picture of Keaton. The day over I tried out the steps with socks on the floor alone and in the evening with shoes in a milonga...

Greetings from Hamburg
Andreas

[Me]

Oh my goodness! It is the great stone face himself? I would love to have that image! Can you remember where you found it? If so, would you mind sending me the link?

Thank you for the reply. :) It is great to meet you.

[bordertangoman]

Regarding the deadpan expression--I see that on the vast majority of dancers, regardless of style. I know I'm the same way. It's not lack of emotion, necessarily, just concentration on anything and everything other than what my face is doing. If I wanted to think about facial expressions and emoting for other people, I'd be interested in ballroom. Which I'm not. (In fact, I hate the ballroom emoting.)

I don't see how it's a big deal, though, that they look like they're not enjoying it. I'm sure they probably are enjoying themselves--else, why would they spend enough.


REreading this thread I am reminded of "Strictly Ballroom"
and the hairspray smiles that Ballroom dancers have to have!

[opendoor]

... It is great to meet you...

. . . and I am disappointing you: everthing lost, the copy, the link. Searched the web over, last night, but I could not find the image again. I remember it was on a tango page concerning "calesita" or "carpa" or "steps". I deleted the file after writing opendoor to it with photoshop - great mistake ! And the avatar is to small to get the writing off.

So sorry, Me !

Andreas

[Me]

. . . everthing lost, the copy, the link. Searched the web over, last night, but I could not find the image again. I remember it was on a tango page concerning "calesita" or "carpa" or "steps".

Andreas

Aw, well thank you for trying! I will search for it... Maybe one day I will find it. :)

I just absolutely love Buster Keaton. Always have! I have videos of his dancing but don't have one of a tango situation. Maybe he falls into a carpa in one of them as a joke... I will go look!

[bordertangoman]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnOE7VYss8k&feature=related

this looks a bit nuevo to me

[Ampster]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnOE7VYss8k&feature=related

this looks a bit nuevo to me

It looks very nuevo to me. However, I like their style. They have that "connection" more than anything else happening. They can "Walk!" :applause: This is so R e f r e s h i n g to see.

Unlike them, many nuevo couples put so much emphasis on to embellishments and fancy moves that their nuevo style AT looks mechanically cold and awkward.

[Peaches]

Beautiful!

So much connection. And, despite it being nuevo with the reputation that nuevo has, I could see the vast majority of that being danced socially.

Thank you.

[opendoor]

.. this looks a bit nuevo to me
It looks very nuevo to me ..

I join your applause. But, I would use different terms. Nuevo was danced 30 years ago. This couple is dancing actually a modern way of Salón Style: v-frame, flowing, elegant, on own axis but with a certain touch of centrifugal energy. Whereas the footwork and the room management reminds me of NeoTango. Alltogether contemporary dancing.

[Ampster]

I join your applause. But, I would use different terms. Nuevo was danced 30 years ago. This couple is dancing actually a modern way of Salón Style: v-frame, flowing, elegant, on own axis but with a certain touch of centrifugal energy. Whereas the footwork and the room management reminds me of NeoTango. Alltogether contemporary dancing.

Call it what you want. In our part of the world, if its not viejo, its nuevo.

We don't feel the need to over-categorize, nor over-analyze.

[opendoor]

Hi Ampster,
there is much more than black and white! And its only fun to analyze and to figure out all the influences and styles. And it makes me wonder, because you should know, my heroes are Arquimbau, Tete and Gavito:

hence, when I started, Nuevo meant "old-fashioned" and viejo "modern", if you know what I mean.

Peace :neutral:

[Heather2007]

Okay, I can't access reel from this computer so will view from home office computer and report back with verdict as to whether "is it live or is it Memorex".

To the peeps across the pond: Happy Independence Day:D

[Ampster]

To the peeps across the pond: Happy Independence Day:D

Thank you! :rocker:

My regards to her Majesty :cool:

[rui resende]

I don,t like call it Tango Nuevo because for me, Tango it,s just one, i prefer to call it a Evolution of tango, a diferent aproach.

But the video it,s not a good example,
for a example i prefer this one:
(hyperlinks not allowed for new members, contact a Moderator or Admin if you have questions. Larinda)