leading

[Jack]

I posted someting like this a while back, I have been getting input on leading techniques from one of the male teachers where I take lessons.
I was steered in this direction from one of the female teachers. She said that she could tell me if it felt right, and maybe more, but the male teacher could show me technique.......Your thoughts.

[Estella]

My opinion is... if you are a MAN you need a teacher who´s a man, too! :wink:
I think your female teacher is right... :roll:

[peachexploration]

Jack, both male and female can teach you technique. However, the follow can tell you better how it feels, whether your signals are interpreted the correct way. The leader can teach you lead form, lead styling better I think. If you can, take classes from both male and female or someone who can do "both" roles.

[Sagitta]

Depends on the instructor and the dance. For salsa I would say that it would be difficult to find one who knows both roles of leader and follow equally well.

[KevinL]

I don't dance salsa much, just a few basic steps. I was out at a dance Saturday night, and a lady I know (I think she helps assist one of the local salsa teachers) asked me to follow, and I did and it was fun.

Except that at one point she raised her left arm (my right arm) straight up. Then she motioned with her eyes that I should do an underarm turn. I said that I didn't feel any lead to turn, and she replied that you don't need to feel a lead to turn in salsa. If the arm goes up, you are supposed to go under it.

That does not agree with what I teach in other dances, and doesn't agree with what I've heard from several of the salsa dancers here. It is my opinion that the lead begins with raising the hand, but then also has to include a direction (inside turn vrs outside turn).

Opinions? Is the lead for an underarm turn merely raising the hand, or is there a directional component?

Kevin

[peachexploration]

....Opinions? Is the lead for an underarm turn merely raising the hand, or is there a directional component?...Kevin

Kevin, I've heard both. The directional component (they way I learned) comes when the lead makes a "small" halo above the head using the fingers, particularly with multiples spins or a subtle push with a open palm to palm. I think these are much clearer and better. As for just raising the hand, it depends on what arm your using and the count your on that makes in work in a particular move but that's too fuzzy to work every time. :)

[borikensalsero]

KevinL...
Philosophical views of dancing is really what she is talking about, hence, the ultimately I’m right, you spin when I put my hand up. I dislike a dance where the girl automatically flies as soon as my hand is raised. She doesn’t know, neither direction, nor what purpose the hand is up for, and if a spin, how many times. All she knows is that it means something, and assumes it means spin. What if I change my mind and want to do something completely different? Assumed dances are the worst for me.

I rather dance with a person who waits for me to finish what I have to say to answers back. Not one where I start talking and in the middle of the sentence, finishes it with what she thought I meant. That assumption takes away from the overall connection of the dance, leads to breaks of interpretation of the song, etc. We are trying to communicate but you keep assuming what I want to say. A no no for me, but hey if you and I have been dancing together for a 100 years chances are that you will assume right, until then, I rather you wait for me.

I noticed that a lot of the ballroom oriented ladies I danced with tend to go as soon as the hand is up. I'm not sure if it is something they are taught... all I know is that my lead has been stolen...

[pygmalion]

Well said, as usual, borikensalsero. The only problem is that some guys do lead every component of a turn. Others simply raise their hand and expect you to know what to do. Not every lead even knows how to lead a turn. I've danced with guys who could, through their lead, indicate direction of turn, which foot your weight should be over and when, how fast you should turn, and how many times you should spin. I've also danced with guys who simply raise the arm and wait, as if somehow the follow knows all that stuff by osmosis. No sarcasm intended, here. What I usually do is wait. Then, just as I'm about to be late, if I don't feel a clear indication of what to do, I turn once at medium speed. And if the lead leaves the arm up as if to say he wants another turn, I'll add that one in, also after waiting for some other indication. It's a guess, but what else can you do?

[borikensalsero]

Well said, as usual, borikensalsero. The only problem is that some guys do lead every component of a turn. Others simply raise their hand and expect you to know what to do. Not every lead even knows how to lead a turn. I've danced with guys who could, through their lead, indicate direction of turn, which foot your weight should be over and when, how fast you should turn, and how many times you should spin. I've also danced with guys who simply raise the arm and wait, as if somehow the follow knows all that stuff by osmosis. No sarcasm intended, here. What I usually do is wait. Then, just as I'm about to be late, if I don't feel a clear indication of what to do, I turn once at medium speed. And if the lead leaves the arm up as if to say he wants another turn, I'll add that one in, also after waiting for some other indication. It's a guess, but what else can you do?

lol... Yeap, alrighty then, how much sillier can you make me look dude? Tell me something, please, I tried osmosis in college walking around with the books under my arms and it didn’t work. I don’t think it will work here either. Please, please, please… What do I do? I’ve seen it many a times where the leader raises the hand and just stares at the lady. Ahhh, poor thing, I feel so bad, especially if the lady is just starting out. Give her at least a little something to go by.

I know this particular girl who loves to spin, I finally got tired of her flying 8 spins to a sloooooooooooow song that I stopped using one hand to spin her now I use both. I grab both her hands and when she is about to fly I really put the breaks on her. I can sense her searching for momentum, then she tries to whip those shoulders around and bang, she goes no where and I force her to take a sloooooow sensual spin. He he he… Every time I do she looks at me with wide eyes, wondering what happened to her 20 out of places spins. Hehehe… I stole them! I want one spin and one is what you will give me!!! :twisted: :twisted:

[vey]

The only problem is that some guys do lead every component of a turn. Others simply raise their hand and expect you to know what to do. Not every lead even knows how to lead a turn. I've danced with guys who could, through their lead, indicate direction of turn, which foot your weight should be over and when, how fast you should turn, and how many times you should spin. I've also danced with guys who simply raise the arm and wait, as if somehow the follow knows all that stuff by osmosis.

That's an excellent point, Pygmalion!!!
I was going to mention exactly the same thing. Many of us, followers, are instinctively trying to compensate for poor leading and sometimes it backfires. It usually happens to me when I'm dancing with a leader that I don't know - but as soon as I "get" his manner of leading and feel that no compensation is required there's no problem...

Another aspect of compensating for poor leading: I'm not or almost not doing it in classes, I think it can be very damaging for learning proper leading techniques.
Even on the dancefloor, in cases like Pygmalion has described, overall, I do compensate but once or twice I intentionally miss a poor lead. My take on it is that to a leader who's willing to work on his skills, it'll work as a feedback ( of course to a leader who thinks that he's great, it'll be just irritating)

[pygmalion]

LOL. The upside is that you learn to create some fast spins! Waiting around for leads that never come has its benefits, as well. :wink:

[vey]

LOL. The upside is that you learn to create some fast spins! Waiting around for leads that never come has its benefits, as well. :wink:

I know what you mean :wink: :wink: :wink:
I've even developed a styling of a sort: I'm staring at my partner with this dramatic look, as if I can't part with him even for one turn and then at the last moment, when it's almost late, I quickly turn around ....

[vey]

Pygmalion, I keep forgeting to tell you how much I like this Balanchin's quote in your signature!!!
It's just nails it, isn't it?!

[tsb]

I don't dance salsa much, just a few basic steps. I was out at a dance Saturday night, and a lady I know (I think she helps assist one of the local salsa teachers) asked me to follow, and I did and it was fun.

Except that at one point she raised her left arm (my right arm) straight up. Then she motioned with her eyes that I should do an underarm turn. I said that I didn't feel any lead to turn, and she replied that you don't need to feel a lead to turn in salsa. If the arm goes up, you are supposed to go under it.

That does not agree with what I teach in other dances, and doesn't agree with what I've heard from several of the salsa dancers here. It is my opinion that the lead begins with raising the hand, but then also has to include a direction (inside turn vrs outside turn).

Opinions? Is the lead for an underarm turn merely raising the hand, or is there a directional component?

Kevin

i would agree that, when an arm is raised, the natural mechanics of our physiology prompts us to step and turn underneath it while stepping forward.

but even in a general verbal conversation, things can go seriously wrong when we assume that some basic term means the same thing to everyone. even though spanish is the main language spoken in south america (except brazil), from country to country words have different colloquial meanings, many of them pejorative if not downright profane!

similarly, when it comes to dance, not only is there a chance that your partner will have a different vocabulary but also differing verbal & decibel tendencies! i've been taught that being a good leader means making your signals clear enough to whomever you're dancing with while using the least amount of force. how explicit my communication is depends on how responsive my partner is. and so the first moves with a new partner are generally very basic and chosen for the purpose of determining whether i need to shout a lot or i can get by with whispering.

in general i do add a slight directional component through the raised arm through the turn, but generally i also try to prep her footwork as needed and also set up compression in our connection before guiding the turn - like in doing a swing tuck turn. i personally find that the compression in the connection (and it doesn't need to be forceful) to be as vital a component as the raising of the arm for communicating turns, especially for dances performed to faster tempos or when you're dancing in open position.

IMHO, if i'm not sure of my partner's ability to follow even a simple lead, better to be overly clear than to leave my partner a chance to do something that might throw her (and me) off balance, or worse, lead to an injury. so for an underarm turn, besides whatever level footwork prepping and or compression i may try to signal, i may also add signals with my right hand. it may be as subtle as a gentle rolling/cupping motion with my right palm, or it may be as complete as to use my right hand to guide her around and not releasing contact until i reach the point of imminent sexual harassment! on left turns, i generally catch my partner's shoulder with my right hand while she's still facing away. if i'm thinking single turn (or final furn i generally move it 'lock' it back in place in closed position, or if i'm thinking multiple turns i make contact with just my fingers and give a little nudge suggesting that she continue her rotation.

while i know some leaders prefer to have their partners complete their (single) turn completely underneath their own power, i also generally continue to lead/guide/assist the turn through the connection in her right arm (that directional component/polishing the halo/stirring the bowl).
and besides bringing the arm down to end the turn, the compression in the connection is also a means of signalling single vs. multiple turns. if i don't feel a responsive compression, i don't lead a multiple turn rather than risk injuring her shoulder (& i don't try any more multiple turns during that dance). multiple turns are probably the only time when i do use a lot of force/torque - but the torque is not applied equally throughout the turn - the majority of the force is applied when the follower's arm goes from 9 o'clock to noon or maybe 1 o'clock (i generally start a turn with her right hand somewhere between 6 & 9 o'clock as i've usually signalled/compressed her to prep slightly to her left so that she's facing down my 5:30 rather than 6:00). applying a lot of force before reaching the 9 o'clock position tends to throw the partner off her axis to the side to her right (my left).

if she drifts through those multiple turns, i move with her to maintain her axis, and (finally!!!) if i find that she's losing control (going off her axis, arm starts flying) while i'm cranking her through multiple turns, i bring my arm down & lock it (and brace my frame accordingly) in place like gibraltar and at an angle where so she can use our connection like an anchor to maintain her balance and come to a smooth-looking stop.

i've been told that by a lot of followers that they're able to complete more consecutive multiple turns with me than with anyone else they've ever danced with. while technique comes into play, i think it's the last part that's the main factor - when they've come to a stop needing that arm to be there, during the pause she needs to regain her equilibrium, the look in their eyes changes from whoa! to wow...... and they generally respond more positively to my lead thereafter because i've just communicated that i'll be there if something goes wrong and still keep them looking smooth.

[Sarah]

Opinions? Is the lead for an underarm turn merely raising the hand, or is there a directional component?


No lead - no move. IMNSHO a good lead is intuitively obvious in the way it affects the body position and the balance of the couple. It should not have to be interpreted through the follower's brain. The follower's responsibility is to maintain a state in which that can happen (which includes all that good stuff like posture, frame, balance, having your weight at the right place at the right time.......)

I have spent quite some time training myself to not follow leads that aren't there. This is more difficult than it sounds, and non-leads like the one described effectively un-train those non-responses.

Does that make sense?

Cheers
Sarah

[pygmalion]

Yup. That makes sense to me. The only problem is that, especially at the beginning stages, guys genuinely believe that, by raising the arm, they ARE leading a turn. Layers of complexity in leading come later. So the guys are leading. Not optimally, maybe, but they're leading (at least in the scenario I described), so I would find myself ungracious not to follow, however nondescript the lead.

[SDsalsaguy]

Opinions? Is the lead for an underarm turn merely raising the hand, or is there a directional component?
Ack! :shock:

To me one of the most basic signs of an unskilled follower (which, in a newer dancer, is easily understood) is exactly the auto-spin you are talking about.

No, the lead for an underarm turn is certainly not just a raising of the hand! How could you lead all of the fantastic face/head loops and hair-comb type arm patterns if the woman always turned when her hand was elevated? What I always try to teach newer follows is to realize that her elbow is a direction signal which will indicate the direction of her next action... so, if I raise her hand in a manner that brings her elbow outside (to her right) than that's the direction of her turn... and an arm/hand raise that brings her elbow inside (across her) than that's the direction of her turn (in this case an inside turn) ...and an arm raise without a lateral vector indicates that she not turn at all.

[Sarah]

I would find myself ungracious not to follow, however nondescript the lead.

Oh yes, I can be ungracious[1] at times[2]. Have you ever tried, with a mediocre lead, to follow what he's actually leading rather than what he thinks he's leading. Good practice for both sides - if you can convince him that you're not just being bloody minded and obstructive.

Cheers
Sarah

[1] read `evil'
[2] Class times rather than social times - usually.

[danceguy]

Hmm, I meet a lot of those "auto turners"...grabbing your arm and spinning off it...its totally understandble for a beginner, the same for a lead giving incorrect signals. If I dance with a lady who does this...I can't do more of the flavorful moves that SD was mentioning...so with a complete beginner I have to keep things simple.

I'm finding this interesting as I'm now working on developing my lead for double and triple (or more) spins, and I've found that you have to have a very strong and clear lead for this to work. One of my main problems is getting some of the women I dance with to slow down as they are spinning machines, but that's almost another subject altogether. ;)

One reason I enjoy dancing with a variety of women is that many intrepret the lead differently. The way I turn one lady may not work as well with another...but I'm finding as I dance with more and more Salseras I can usually find a technique that works for all of them.

Once I have an idea how they respond to my lead and we've got a good connection, well then its time to have fun! :D

SG

[pygmalion]

I would find myself ungracious not to follow, however nondescript the lead.

Oh yes, I can be ungracious[1] at times[2]. Have you ever tried, with a mediocre lead, to follow what he's actually leading rather than what he thinks he's leading. Good practice for both sides - if you can convince him that you're not just being bloody minded and obstructive.

Cheers
Sarah

[1] read `evil'
[2] Class times rather than social times - usually.

You're hilarious. And with me, it depends on the day. I usually opt not to go for evil, but, what the hey, you never know. I can imagine that would be entertaining at times. :twisted: :wink: :lol:

[cupojoe2]

Oh yes, I can be ungracious[1] at times[2]. Have you ever tried, with a mediocre lead, to follow what he's actually leading rather than what he thinks he's leading. Good practice for both sides - if you can convince him that you're not just being bloody minded and obstructive.


As a lead that hopes with much practice to one day become mediocre,
I wish my instructor was more helpful in this area. I find that she
backleads so strongly, even when I ask her to stop, that I honestly have
no more idea how to lead today than when I started. :headwall:

[pygmalion]

Yes. Backleading is SO WRONG. It undermines the lead's ability to learn his part. How's he ever going to become a decent lead, if the follow won't let him?

btw (and totally off subject) Are you going to the new Scoobie Doo movie when it comes out? (End of the month, right?)

[Vince A]

As a lead that hopes with much practice to one day become mediocre, I wish my instructor was more helpful in this area. I find that she backleads so strongly, even when I ask her to stop, that I honestly have no more idea how to lead today than when I started. :headwall:
cupojoe2,
It's difficult to tell you what to do here . . .

-Maybe, talk to her again, and tell her your concerns . . . and especially if you are paying for privates, not group classes . . . you are the boss!
-Or listen to and learn what she is instructing, and then go dancing and practice, practice, practice with as many different followers as you can get to . . .
-Find another instructor . . .

There is so much to leading, but remember it's not just about leading moves or patterns . . . it's about having fun with the follower (your dance partner for that song) and playing to the music.

You lead with your body, your eyes, your head, your actions, which could mean, at times an ocassional arm and lastly, even your feet. There are specific moves that I do, and when I plant my feet in a certain way, the follower knows that I want to "play here" and I let her meander by me, go down between my legs, walk around me as I'm planted, etc., . . . so just remember, it's the total package. You will get there . . . don't rush it . . . enjoy the jouney!!!

You will never be a perfect dancer . . . there is no such thing!

[KevinL]

go down between my legs

Perhaps only while dancing at the server farm?

[cupojoe2]

. . don't rush it . . . enjoy the jouney!!!

You will never be a perfect dancer . . . there is no such thing!


Vince A. Thanks for the great advice!!!

Yes... I know what you are saying is true...in many ways, I am like a little kids that thinks they are all grown up... :oops:

....a little knowledge is a dangerous thing... and with my head, I know I should still be splashing in the kiddie pool…

but sometimes, I just want to jump in the deep end to see if I really can swim without my floaties...

I will do as you say and 1) mention my concern to her and 2) "practice, practice, practice with as many different followers as you can get to . . ."

Thanks again!

[cupojoe2]

btw (and totally off subject) Are you going to the new Scoobie Doo movie when it comes out? (End of the month, right?)

Yes!!! I'm going opening night and I'm taking 10 lovely young ladies with me... how'd you know? :?

[pygmalion]

LOL! Wild guess. :wink: :lol:

[cupojoe2]

LOL! Wild guess. :wink: :lol:

Hmmmm.... :wink:

BTW, of the 10 young ladies going with me... 1 is 28 and the others are all 9 or younger...

[Sarah]

I wish my instructor was more helpful in this area.

Well you could get yerself over here and I could be ungracious and obnoxious at you until you get it.

Failing that you could try some group classes, so you get a variety of different follows, or you could do as you say, leap in the deep end, get out to some clubs and parties and dance with some people. Just remember that doing the basic in time to the music and a couple of real simple moves is quite enough to have some fun with.

Cheers
Sarah

[cupojoe2]

Well you could get yerself over here and I could be ungracious and obnoxious at you until you get it.


Thanks for the good advice!!! and you never know, I might just hold you to your offer of being "ungracious and obnoxious" one day -- that is after I work my way up to mediocre. :wink:

[MapleLeaf Salsero]

No lead - no move. IMNSHO a good lead is intuitively obvious in the way it affects the body position and the balance of the couple. It should not have to be interpreted through the follower's brain.

Does that make sense?


Makes perfect sense to me Sarah. 8) This is exactly what I look for in a dance partner. You are a rare breed. :D

[Sarah]

Well you could get yerself over here and I could be ungracious and obnoxious at you until you get it.


Thanks for the good advice!!! and you never know, I might just hold you to your offer of being "ungracious and obnoxious" one day -- that is after I work my way up to mediocre. :wink:

Hi Joe

I bet you're quite mediocre enough already, to know enough to be asking these questions. :D ;)

Cheers
Sarah

[Sarah]

No lead - no move. IMNSHO a good lead is intuitively obvious in the way it affects the body position and the balance of the couple. It should not have to be interpreted through the follower's brain.

Does that make sense?


Makes perfect sense to me Sarah. 8) This is exactly what I look for in a dance partner. You are a rare breed. :D

:D :oops: Yep. Brainless. Thats what I'm aiming for. :lol:

It's harder than it sounds. The `zone' if you like, for following well, is almost a meditative state. Being in the moment, not analysing what went wrong a second ago, nor anticipating what will happen a second from now.... I actually achieve that sometimes. Occasionally surprises he** out of me when it happens, but feels really good.

Cheers
Sarah

[MapleLeaf Salsero]

:D :oops: Yep. Brainless. Thats what I'm aiming for. :lol:

It's harder than it sounds. The `zone' if you like, for following well, is almost a meditative state. Being in the moment, not analysing what went wrong a second ago, nor anticipating what will happen a second from now.... I actually achieve that sometimes. Occasionally surprises he** out of me when it happens, but feels really good.


I love it when my partner "clears her mind" and completely abandons herself to my lead. This can lead to the most transcending experiences you can ever have on the dance floor. I often reach nirvana when this happens. :D

If the girl doesn´t do what I expected, I know for certain it is my fault. She has abandoned herself to my lead. It´s a great learning experience and it keeps me on my toes (avoid getting sloppy). On those rare ocasions when I reach nirvana, I don´t even notice the mistakes...

[Sabor]

If the girl doesn´t do what I expected, I know for certain it is my fault.

hmm.. not necessarily.. depends really on the type of dancer she is and the type of dancer u are.. her sense of the lead may not be attuned to yours due to her dancing with a certain style and u in another for example.. that does not mean its your fault or hers specific.. just how it turns out and this is a major way of learning for both parties.. to accomodate.. reach a common place and connection.. 'it takes two to tango' .. and so it takes two to make an error.. following needs to include a certain degree of acute sensitivity and open mind and some creativity to accomodate the lead.. it is the more difficult role of the two in my opinion.. and some salseras are just not there yet.. just as there are some salseros lack the flexibility to accomodate the followers level.. or the music for that matter ..

Yet, the simple fitting of roles leader is actor and follower is reactor makes it a little lifeless for me.. its more like a conversation.. using dance in a give and take action exchange .. the lead just provides the outline or frame to that .. its the music that directs the convo .. and its both parties resposibilty to make a poem out of the convo exchange.

[Vince A]

Anticipating??? . . . NO!

Brainless??? . . . NO!

I wouldn't like my dance partner to be brainless. Why???

Well, what if, while in a move, the music did a sweep up to the next chorus/verse/chord, etc., wouldn't you want her to do something cool like a ronde or a leg lift???

How about if "she wanted to take the lead for a few beats?

Dancing is meant to be fun, and I want my partner to think on the floor, becasue thinking leads to play, and play leads to the word "FUN." ANd if you are not having fun, versus working, on the dance floor, then maybe you shouldn't be there.

Make your dancing fun. When I discovered "how to play" on the floor, instead of trying to show off (which I still do to a point), my dancing skyrocketed.

[Genesius Redux]

Anticipating??? . . . NO!

Brainless??? . . . NO!

I wouldn't like my dance partner to be brainless. Why???



Brainless wouldn't be the way I describe it either, but what about which area of the brain we're talking about? I would hope that in dancing, you're getting pretty close to brain-stem reactivity (mutual), so that you're responding rather than thinking about it. That seems to be what you're ideally looking for in any sport, no?

[Vince A]

Anticipating??? . . . NO!

Brainless??? . . . NO!

I wouldn't like my dance partner to be brainless. Why???



Brainless wouldn't be the way I describe it either, but what about which area of the brain we're talking about? I would hope that in dancing, you're getting pretty close to brain-stem reactivity (mutual), so that you're responding rather than thinking about it. That seems to be what you're ideally looking for in any sport, no?
GR,
Great way to put it!!! I agree . . .

[MapleLeaf Salsero]

[quote]If the girl doesn´t do what I expected, I know for certain it is my fault.


hmm.. not necessarily.. depends really on the type of dancer she is and the type of dancer u are.. her sense of the lead may not be attuned to yours due to her dancing with a certain style and u in another for example..


Well, I’m not sure what you mean by style. By style, do you mean LA/Cuban/NY/Columbian or certain small details or unique things that the follow does while dancing the same style (ex: LA)?

Anyway, I was referring to a fairly good follow dancing the same style with a fairly good lead. If she abandons herself to his lead and misreads something, I would have to say it’s the guys fault because he didn’t make it crystal clear. He didn’t finish the sentence, was talking too low, or there was too much noise disrupting the sound wave, which resulted in a lack of communication. The lady should "subconsciously" do it because it feels comfortable not because she knows the move or guessed what he would do. I would say it’s sort of an instinct reaction from her body to maximize comfort (or in some cases avoid pain or injury).

If she is a beginner, inexperienced dancer or technically deficient person (can’t do a simple turn even by herself without getting off balance for instance), then I wouldn’t blame the lead for her off-balance (even though he should dance at her level).


following needs to include a certain degree of acute sensitivity and open mind and some creativity to accomodate the lead..


Well I would much prefer that she just clear her mind and do what is being lead. If every girl I dance with accommodates my lead, I will ultimately think I’m a perfect lead which isn´t true. Even though I only dance socially, I want to progress as a dancer. The only way I can learn from my mistakes is if I recognize them. If they are camouflaged, I will never know, and it will undermine my learning process.


Yet, the simple fitting of roles leader is actor and follower is reactor makes it a little lifeless for me.. its more like a conversation.. using dance in a give and take action exchange .. the lead just provides the outline or frame to that .. its the music that directs the convo .. and its both parties resposibilty to make a poem out of the convo exchange.

Yes, I agree with you Sabor, however just because she "abandons herself to his lead" does not make him the actor and her the reactor. I love it when girls do this, not because I feel in control but because of where it takes me. It is as if we are no longer two people dancing but one person. I may initiate the move but I feed off her energy and in turn do what she tells me to do. From my experience it’s the best communication you can have with your partner.

About 2 months ago in salsa class our instructor taught as a new pattern. This pattern was made up of several moves. Half way through the pattern the guy was supposed to bend the girls arm behind her back. My friend was having some problems with this part of the pattern because the girls weren’t letting him do that. After seeing that I had no problems leading the pattern, he felt a little frustrated and asked me to be the follow to see what he was doing wrong. Well, even though I have little experience in being a follow, he managed to lead it with ease. Why? Because I abandoned myself to his lead. I just did what felt natural and comfortable. I then realized that the girls in my class were being “defensive” when they danced with him for some reason or other and with me they completely abandoned themselves. I think it has to do with trust. If you trust your partner it’s much easier to just let yourself go and it feels great for both parties.

Regards,
ML

[Sarah]

Anticipating??? . . . NO!

Brainless??? . . . NO!

I wouldn't like my dance partner to be brainless. Why???

Note to self: facetiousness doesn't travel well over the internet. ;)

Well, what if, while in a move, the music did a sweep up to the next chorus/verse/chord, etc., wouldn't you want her to do something cool like a ronde or a leg lift???

How about if "she wanted to take the lead for a few beats?
Donno, but in my universe, rondes are definitely lead, and hijacking ain't done much in salsa.


Dancing is meant to be fun, and I want my partner to think on the floor, becasue thinking leads to play, and play leads to the word "FUN." ANd if you are not having fun, versus working, on the dance floor, then maybe you shouldn't be there.

Make your dancing fun. When I discovered "how to play" on the floor, instead of trying to show off (which I still do to a point), my dancing skyrocketed.

Believe it or not I agree completely, but before I could get really playful on the dancefloor I had to get both the music and the lead-follow connection working on a subconscious level. Thats why I like merengue - it was the first dance that let me play.

Cheers
Sarah

[Genesius Redux]

Anticipating??? . . . NO!

Brainless??? . . . NO!

I wouldn't like my dance partner to be brainless. Why???

Note to self: facetiousness doesn't travel well over the internet. ;)



Thank goodness for the little winkie faces.... :wink:

[Sarah]

Anticipating??? . . . NO!

Brainless??? . . . NO!

I wouldn't like my dance partner to be brainless. Why???

Note to self: facetiousness doesn't travel well over the internet. ;)



Thank goodness for the little winkie faces.... :wink:

But I used three and still got taken seriously. Maybe I have to use a dancing banana - now where would I get a thing like that?

:banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :kitty: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana:

[cupojoe2]

Oops -- I missed this one...



Hi Joe

I bet you're quite mediocre enough already, to know enough to be asking these questions. :D ;)



You are too kind! :wink:

[Sabor]

Very nice reply MapleLeaf.. thanks for taking the time :) the way u wrote that and broke it down makes alot of sense.. i just had got your earlier post in the general sense and replied accordingly.. salsa on amigo.. but quit dancing next to giraffes or salseras may get the wrong impression and start dancing with u wearing 20 inch heels LOL minimum :lol:

[salsachinita]

No lead - no move. IMNSHO a good lead is intuitively obvious in the way it affects the body position and the balance of the couple. It should not have to be interpreted through the follower's brain.

Does that make sense?


Makes perfect sense to me Sarah. 8) This is exactly what I look for in a dance partner. You are a rare breed. :D

Not so rare.......I am one, too. I let my muscle memories do my thinking 8) ....much more fun that way........ :wink: !

I wrote this earlier in "Why would peopledance NY style?" under 'salsa':

Salsa dancing should be as such: flowing water, able to take the shape of any vessel that contains it. ........As a female follower, I know no lead; nor is it my role to lead. The more I dance with different people (no matter what style/timing/level) the more I learn. I submit myself as a 'blank' in the presence of a lead. I am water, I will assume the shapes of vessels that contains me.

I realized that the more I learn, the less I 'know' , and the more 'empty' or 'blank' I've become. This is making me a better follower, a little bit everyday.

Now, MapleLeaf, are you gonna take part in the grand tour downunder :wink: :lol: .....? Both Sarah & I are on this side of the globe!

[MapleLeaf Salsero]

Very nice reply MapleLeaf.. thanks for taking the time :) the way u wrote that and broke it down makes alot of sense.. i just had got your earlier post in the general sense and replied accordingly.. :

Hi Sabor! Sorry for the late reply, I´ve been away. :( Thanks for the nice words. Yes, I agree with you in the general sense, it would be nice for the follow to have "a certain degree of acute sensitivity and open mind and some creativity to accomodate the lead.." (Very nicely put, by the way). Some time ago, these were the follows I most enjoyed dancing with. Nowadays, I honestly prefer those seasoned follows who "flow brainlessly". It makes me become "brainless" (completely forget about the outside world) and concentrate on the lady and the fabulous experience we are having together on the dance floor.


salsa on amigo.. but quit dancing next to giraffes or salseras may get the wrong impression and start dancing with u wearing 20 inch heels LOL minimum :lol:

LOL! Actually I really enjoyed dancing with my partner on that day (she was much shorter than the giraffe :wink: ) . Even though we were dancing on dirt, I felt a real connection and besides it was very amusing. :wink: I had danced with her for the first time two days before (she was Scandanavian and was on holidays here in Portugal). The first time we danced, it felt so comfortable and smooth that it seemed we had been dancing for years. We just clicked. Something very rare...

[MapleLeaf Salsero]

Now, MapleLeaf, are you gonna take part in the grand tour downunder :wink: :lol: .....? Both Sarah & I are on this side of the globe!

Well Salsachinita, I belong to a big group of salseros here at the DF who are just dying to get a dance with you. :D After you dance with the "big boys" (Boriken, SD, Salsarhythms and Sabor), I expect you to save a dance for me. Count me in for the grand tour downunder. BTW, do kangaroos salsa? I know they boxe, not sure if they can dance though...

And Sarah, I´m looking forward to our "brainless" dance together. :wink:

[squirrel]

I, as a follower, hope to run into a guy who knows how to lead... neither too strong nor too weak... i expect the leader to know what he wants and give me the correct signal and not to make me lose my balance...
but, as a teacher, i can tell you from experience that both males and females can teach leading techniques... and why not?! all you need is a deep understanding of the music and dance and a lot of practice...

[Sabor]

LOL! Actually I really enjoyed dancing with my partner on that day (she was much shorter than the giraffe :wink: ) . Even though we were dancing on dirt, I felt a real connection and besides it was very amusing. :wink: I had danced with her for the first time two days before (she was Scandanavian and was on holidays here in Portugal). The first time we danced, it felt so comfortable and smooth that it seemed we had been dancing for years. We just clicked. Something very rare...

see.. i read a post from a salsero like that and i know salsa is doing juuust fine 8)

After you dance with the "big boys" (Boriken, SD, Salsarhythms and Sabor)

strange u say that ML, cause i would've said - Boriken, SD, SR and ML - for sure.. now, i do appreciate the compliment mucho.. yet truth is truth after all :D

[MapleLeaf Salsero]

After you dance with the "big boys" (Boriken, SD, Salsarhythms and Sabor)

strange u say that ML, cause i would've said - Boriken, SD, SR and ML - for sure.. now, i do appreciate the compliment mucho.. yet truth is truth after all :D

Thanks for the compliment Sabor. Unfortunately, I still miles away from you guys. Still have a lot to learn. Hope to get there someday though... :D

[borikensalsero]

After you dance with the "big boys" (Boriken, SD, Salsarhythms and Sabor)


Indeed thank you MapleLeafSalsero for the sweet thought,
Must admit I don't think of myself as a big boy. Now SD, and Rhythms, those I think of as big boys. My interests are so into making a connection and becoming one with the girl and the music that you'll almost never see a "big boy" move out of me, well once I learn a move it isn't a big boy move :wink: , even if it is.

The explosion of my soul onto the dance floor is more along the lines of what I love to do. Ahhhhhhhhh, the music, the lady, and I, all in a journey of love soothed by brass, molded by percussion and held together by passion... The lovemaking scene so reminiscent of our first love’s clothed journey to the nude, even when the nude is the mere thought of the innocence of a hold because we are too afraid to venture into the unknown. Passion!!!!!

[etchuck]

Opinions? Is the lead for an underarm turn merely raising the hand, or is there a directional component?

No, the lead for an underarm turn is certainly not just a raising of the hand! ... What I always try to teach newer follows is to realize that her elbow is a direction signal which will indicate the direction of her next action... so, if I raise her hand in a manner that brings her elbow outside (to her right) than that's the direction of her turn... and an arm/hand raise that brings her elbow inside (across her) than that's the direction of her turn (in this case an inside turn) ...and an arm raise without a lateral vector indicates that she not turn at all.

Gosh... I'm so late to this thread. If this hasn't been covered already...

A suggestion that I had picked up from dancing turns is that the lady follows the direction of her wrist (not her elbow), since she should ideally be looking at or following it.

Consequently, the leader should not just raise his arm but also turn his hand at the wrist to make a slope of a triangle. The lady's hand may also wind up doing the same (so that your hands look like an upside-down V [chevron], contact at the fingers and not full palms). If an arch/outside turn is desired, the man's left hand should be such that his fingers are pointing out (to his left), and ideally the woman's wrists should be slightly leaning to her right. Conversely, an inside/loop turn means the man's fingers are pointing to his right, the follower's wrist to her left.

The more experienced you are as a leader, the less the leader has to bend the wrist (which on the competitive floor looks bad, but on social floor isn't too bad I think).

[MapleLeaf Salsero]

After you dance with the "big boys" (Boriken, SD, Salsarhythms and Sabor)

The explosion of my soul onto the dance floor is more along the lines of what I love to do. Ahhhhhhhhh, the music, the lady, and I, all in a journey of love soothed by brass, molded by percussion and held together by passion... The lovemaking scene so reminiscent of our first love’s clothed journey to the nude, even when the nude is the mere thought of the innocence of a hold because we are too afraid to venture into the unknown. Passion!!!!!

Like I said Boriken, one of the big boys... :)

You just described my definition of dancing (I´m not there yet unfortunately :( )...

[borikensalsero]

After you dance with the "big boys" (Boriken, SD, Salsarhythms and Sabor)

The explosion of my soul onto the dance floor is more along the lines of what I love to do. Ahhhhhhhhh, the music, the lady, and I, all in a journey of love soothed by brass, molded by percussion and held together by passion... The lovemaking scene so reminiscent of our first love’s clothed journey to the nude, even when the nude is the mere thought of the innocence of a hold because we are too afraid to venture into the unknown. Passion!!!!!

Like I said Boriken, one of the big boys... :)

You just described my definition of dancing (I´m not there yet unfortunately :( )...

:oops: :oops: :tongue:

[Genesius Redux]

I, as a follower, hope to run into a guy who knows how to lead... neither too strong nor too weak... i expect the leader to know what he wants and give me the correct signal and not to make me lose my balance...

:lol: An entirely reasonable request! Why is it so hard to find? :lol:

Guys are so used to applying force to a problem. The door's stuck? Ram it open with your shoulder. The chair you're assembling doesn't quite fit? Force the piece together. Computer problems? Try a baseball bat.

Be patient with us--gentle and subtle is not something we often get, as a sex. And when we're told we're too forceful, we frequently overcompensate by being excessively timid. After all, we wouldn't want to break you! :wink:

Under the gentle guidance of your patience, love, and understanding (and if women weren't patient and loving and uncerstanding, wouldn't the whole species have died out centuries ago), we eventually learn what you very reasonable women have known all along. We may be slow, but we have good hearts! :wink:

[SDsalsaguy]

After you dance with the "big boys" (Boriken, SD, Salsarhythms and Sabor)
I'm a "big boy"??? :shock: What does this mean???

Heck, Boriken, Salsarhythms, and Sabor are all scholars of this stuff... they know music, history, etc., ...and their all poets to boot!
Me? I'm just a little dude who lives to dance...

[MapleLeaf Salsero]

I, as a follower, hope to run into a guy who knows how to lead... neither too strong nor too weak... i expect the leader to know what he wants and give me the correct signal and not to make me lose my balance...

:lol: An entirely reasonable request! Why is it so hard to find? :lol:

Guys are so used to applying force to a problem. The door's stuck? Ram it open with your shoulder. The chair you're assembling doesn't quite fit? Force the piece together. Computer problems? Try a baseball bat.


Genesius, I think this goes back to caveman time. We were used to grabbing our women by the hair and dragging them on the floor. We would choose the path with most pebbles to make it more interesting and exciting... :wink: Could this be why us guys have such problems in leading gently and smoothly. :shock:

Boriken, care to give some insight on this?

[MapleLeaf Salsero]

After you dance with the "big boys" (Boriken, SD, Salsarhythms and Sabor)
I'm a "big boy"??? :shock: What does this mean???


A salsa guru, someone with great knowledge and skill (both in theory as well as in practice).

[SDsalsaguy]

After you dance with the "big boys" (Boriken, SD, Salsarhythms and Sabor)
I'm a "big boy"??? :shock: What does this mean???


A salsa guru, someone with great knowledge and skill (both in theory as well as in practice).
And I'm supposed to have/be this... :shock: :shock: :shock:

[borikensalsero]

I, as a follower, hope to run into a guy who knows how to lead... neither too strong nor too weak... i expect the leader to know what he wants and give me the correct signal and not to make me lose my balance...

:lol: An entirely reasonable request! Why is it so hard to find? :lol:

Guys are so used to applying force to a problem. The door's stuck? Ram it open with your shoulder. The chair you're assembling doesn't quite fit? Force the piece together. Computer problems? Try a baseball bat.


Genesius, I think this goes back to caveman time. We were used to grabbing our women by the hair and dragging them on the floor. We would choose the path with most pebbles to make it more interesting and exciting... :wink: Could this be why us guys have such problems in leading gently and smoothly. :shock:

Boriken, care to give some insight on this?

lol... Yeap, that sounds good to me. Mind says make her yours and testosterone reacts by tugging her everywhere so she can see how strong and masculine we are. I'll show you how I can take care of you my gentle lady, as if she was asking for help against an assailant. All that topped with an EGO and we have the making of a great dancer battling prehistoric beliefs with a sense of new world egotistical order. Yeah, baby, let me show you what I can do! Just like Rams bang head against each other to prove dominance for the final take of a female, we just can’t figure out that our animal instinct isn’t best suited against the object of our attraction. God, and that is with the use of a brain, imagine how brutalistic we would be with out its use. Dancing would still be grabbing the girl by the hair and dragging her all over the floor...

[borikensalsero]

After you dance with the "big boys" (Boriken, SD, Salsarhythms and Sabor)
I'm a "big boy"??? :shock: What does this mean???


A salsa guru, someone with great knowledge and skill (both in theory as well as in practice).
And I'm supposed to have/be this... :shock: :shock: :shock:

Yes you are, big dawg you... :tongue:

[SDsalsaguy]

After you dance with the "big boys" (Boriken, SD, Salsarhythms and Sabor)
I'm a "big boy"??? :shock: What does this mean???


A salsa guru, someone with great knowledge and skill (both in theory as well as in practice).
And I'm supposed to have/be this... :shock: :shock: :shock:

Yes you are, big dawg you... :tongue:
:oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops:

[Danish Guy]

What a thread, sorry I’m a little late :oops:

Except that at one point she raised her left arm (my right arm) straight up. Then she motioned with her eyes that I should do an underarm turn. I said that I didn't feel any lead to turn, and she replied that you don't need to feel a lead to turn in salsa. If the arm goes up, you are supposed to go under it.


Yes, I have meet two teachers teaching exactly that. (One male, one female). They where both heavily into the Cuban style. I don't like this "lead", and still go for the halo lead, even if I'm dancing the Cuban style.

[Danish Guy]

[quote=KevinL]I have spent quite some time training myself to not follow leads that aren't there. This is more difficult than it sounds, and non-leads like the one described effectively un-train those non-responses.

Does that make sense?


This makes perfect sense. I wanna dance :D

This way to respond is gold for the leaders doing classes too. Then you don’t have to wait for the club dances to see if your lead is working. :D :D :D

[Danish Guy]

...and an arm raise without a lateral vector indicates that she not turn at all.

I'm still working on getting this lead to succeed in the clubs. She is most likely to chose a right or left side turn, if I don't hold her back with the other hand. :?

[SDsalsaguy]

...and an arm raise without a lateral vector indicates that she not turn at all.

I'm still working on getting this lead to succeed in the clubs. She is most likely to chose a right or left side turn, if I don't hold her back with the other hand. :?
Yeah, the idea that a raised hand in and of itself means turn makes it really difficult to do a lot of arm movements and patterns, i.e. hair combs, etc., . . . one of the reasons I hate the up = turn idea! :evil:

[MapleLeaf Salsero]

After you dance with the "big boys" (Boriken, SD, Salsarhythms and Sabor)
I'm a "big boy"??? :shock: What does this mean???


A salsa guru, someone with great knowledge and skill (both in theory as well as in practice).
And I'm supposed to have/be this... :shock: :shock: :shock:

Yes you are, big dawg you... :tongue:
Yeah SD, even Vince wants to dance with you...

[MapleLeaf Salsero]

Genesius, I think this goes back to caveman time. We were used to grabbing our women by the hair and dragging them on the floor. We would choose the path with most pebbles to make it more interesting and exciting... :wink: Could this be why us guys have such problems in leading gently and smoothly. :shock:

Boriken, care to give some insight on this?

lol... Yeap, that sounds good to me. Mind says make her yours and testosterone reacts by tugging her everywhere so she can see how strong and masculine we are. I'll show you how I can take care of you my gentle lady, as if she was asking for help against an assailant. All that topped with an EGO and we have the making of a great dancer battling prehistoric beliefs with a sense of new world egotistical order. Yeah, baby, let me show you what I can do! Just like Rams bang head against each other to prove dominance for the final take of a female, we just can’t figure out that our animal instinct isn’t best suited against the object of our attraction. God, and that is with the use of a brain, imagine how brutalistic we would be with out its use. Dancing would still be grabbing the girl by the hair and dragging her all over the floor...

Thanks Boriken, I knew there was some scientific theory behind this behaviour.

[Genesius Redux]

God, and that is with the use of a brain, imagine how brutalistic we would be with out its use. Dancing would still be grabbing the girl by the hair and dragging her all over the floor...

Hey, somebody's gotta control the hair. There was someone I used to dance with who had the most gorgeous long blonde hair--cascading down her back, and thick. She used to put it in a single braid if she had planned on dancing for an extended period of time. Then--you tuck turn that girl, you'd better watch out. You could end up with a black eye, broken ribs. Lethal weapon, I'm tellin ya!

[D-spot]

Except that at one point she raised her left arm (my right arm) straight up. Then she motioned with her eyes that I should do an underarm turn. I said that I didn't feel any lead to turn, and she replied that you don't need to feel a lead to turn in salsa. If the arm goes up, you are supposed to go under it.


Allardes?
I think that is the right word. Hand drop or hair combs in English. I raise the ladies hand and drop her hand behind her head. I request people (students) not to turn unless there is a lead.No lead, then no turn.
It depends on the school you are at. Some schools may not use other moves that involve raising the arm, in that case the raised arm may be the lead. Remember, there are four different ways of leading physical, weight shift, shaping and visual (check the IDTA books for more info). So, some people may use one of the forms for leading and be as correct as another persons IF (IF IF IF, please note the qualifier) the circumstances are correct (e.g. the example given above).

To stop and over-enthusiastic spinner I place my forearm alongside hers to hold her in place until I want her to spin. I then raise my elbow to free her arm and then supply the lead (halo). That way I can control timing, direction, speed and number of spins. To stop the spinning I lower my elbow again to make contact with her forearm, effectively putting the brakes on. I don't do it with a poor dancer if her arm is to the side, obvious reasons apply (watch the nose).
D-spot