Volcada - Strength or Technique?

[Heather2007]

One chap with whom I was talking last night insisted that leading a Volcada was all about the man having good upper body strength. Not that this 5ft.8in bird with a bit of muscle on her doesn't pause for tbreath when a short thin bloke leads me a volcada - BUT - I still think its more about the technique. So chaps (or chappettes) is it all in the red fibre or more about good execution.

[newbie]

One chap with whom I was talking last night insisted that leading a Volcada was all about the man having good upper body strength. Not that this 5ft.8in bird with a bit of muscle on her doesn't pause for tbreath when a short thin bloke leads me a volcada - BUT - I still think its more about the technique. So chaps (or chappettes) is it all in the red fibre or more about good execution.

After leading a dozen consecutive volcadas during a private with a couple of teachers I felt a bit tired and asked them precisely that question, would I need less strength if I had a better technique? Their answer was that some strength is needed anyway.

It also depends on what you call a volcada. Luciana Valle teaches a volcada that is a dynamic thing, you keep moving (no "bridge") and absolutely no strength is needed.

[Peaches]

I think it's got to be a bit of both. I find that true of following them.

But I think it's more to do with technique than pure strength. I say this because the difference between following one with bad technique vs. following one with good technique (understanding that whole counter-balancing thing, funny how that makes a difference, innit?) is the difference between night and day. Done well, they're very relaxed, IMO.

Also, when I was first taught volcadas, the couple teaching me were rather mis-matched in size. He's short, but not small; she's itty-bitty. I watched her lead him into a volcada without much trouble. Yes, I could tell she had to use muscle, but if it was only a matter of strength, I doubt it would have been possible.

[BlueSkies]

Ah, I love Volcadas, been learning these recently...

When my technique was (very) weak initially, the volcadas needed significant strength... once the technique improved I felt:-
a) Less strength was needed
b) The remaining strength requirement was placed on stronger muscles better able to deliver it.

At first, when shifting my (our) weight backwards towards me, I was also leaning my chest backwards, even at times to the extent that my chest was behind my legs and centre of gravity. This meant I needed a major effort of strength to regain equilibrium. As this placed my back in a weak position this meant the strength had to be exerted with my arms and not my core. I would describe this as a curving movement of my upper body like an upside down pendulum or the arm of a metronome. Obviously this was something of a disaster.

My teacher saw this very quickly and sorted it out, such that now I aim to keep my chest/upper body angled slightly forward as in a normal walk, and shift weight backwards in a straight line. This means less strength is needed as my body is well placed to take a little extra weight, and also means that the forward movement to bring the follower back on axis is driven by the strong muscles of the abdominal core and thighs. As a former ju-jitsu "dancer", this made total sense once it was pointed out to me.

A few final notes on this:-
a) I believe the better technique feels dramatically more secure and pleasant for the follower.
b) My teacher also emphasised that I should start with small volcadas and build up over time, and that small volcadas are equally pleasant for the followers, there's no need for massive steps and major "off-axis".

Perhaps these fundamentals are too basic for most of the guys, I found them essential as a beginner new to these. Hope it's interesting anyway,

Blue

[Peaches]

You've touched on something near and dear to me..."dramatically more secure" equates, IMO, to "dramatically more pleasant" for the follower. At least wrt volcadas.

Volcadas still unnerve me a bit with leaders I don't know well. I'm not a large girl, but I'm not small boned and not particularly thin, either. With some guys, who are just about my size, I do wonder if they'll have the ability--both strength and technique--to support me in a volcada. That line of questioning isn't exactly pleasant. Not only do I not care to ponder if I'll get dropped on my face on the floor, but I also don't care to ponder my size quite that much.

With some guys--the ones with better technique, notably--everything feels fine and I don't have to worry. With other guys, though, I can feel them struggling and I really just wish they wouldn't lead them after that first time. Inevitably, though, they still do.

...this is one reason why I have a preference for dancing with very "solid" guys...not only do I feel more "normal" sized, but they also feel so much more secure...

[Me]

I think it is about the strength required for good execution! :) But, I speak mainly of the elements we should employ in all of our tango - taking care to not let the elbows fly out behind the torso, not let the upper body collapse, not let the lower body sway in the back or collapse in the belly, etc. If any of this occurs, volcada is going to feel very heavy, as will all of our tango.

I wonder if the lead you were talking to is holding weight of his follows during volcada instead of balancing the weight.

[bastet]

I tend to think it's a little bit of both, but lean towards technique. The reason I say this is because I have danced with the same person for years, and when we first learned them we had horrible technique and they weren't very comfortable things, now they are very relaxed and easy. Neither of us are any stronger, but the technique is so much better. Granted- there's follower's technique for good volcadas also, that can help make the amount of weight the guy takes not feel like so much (like not arching and bending the back) but I think a guy who has good technique should be able to lead them fine. Luciana is smaller than Alex, but she leads him through them in classes....

[Heather2007]

I was also leaning my chest backwards, even at times to the extent that my chest was behind my legs and centre of gravity. This meant I needed a major effort of strength to regain equilibrium.

I have seen this quite a bit.

My teacher saw this very quickly and sorted it out, such that now I aim to keep my chest/upper body angled slightly forward as in a normal walk, and shift weight backwards in a straight line. This means less strength is needed as my body is well placed

Exactly.

Good response.:D

Rather than start another Thread:

One woman remarked after seeing her husband lead me a wide circular volcado (beginners: that is leaning well forward off my axis and allowing the back leg of a cross to move in a wide circle to the side and then ending up in front of other foot into a cross and repeated a few times) that she tells her husband not to lead it becuse she messes it up all the time. (?)

So, Question to Followers: Have you ever been in a "oh, was that a volcado I was meant to have done back there" situation, or, how did you overcome the first hurdle of either not performing it well/learning to perform it to its maximum.

[Dave Bailey]

So chaps (or chappettes) is it all in the red fibre or more about good execution.
I've had two whole lessons on volcadas, so I count as an expert :)

But I've had some experience in dips / drops / aerials in other dance forms, so I think the same principle applies. Basically, it's technique that's the most important part of these things, but if you don't have it, then things like strength, and relative weight / height, can substitute for technique.

In other words, your chap was Wrong.

[Peaches]

Oh, good question.

Yeah, I've been in that situation. It's tended to be with one leader in particular who just seems to have a very odd way of leading them--almost with no lean at all. Bizarre. And, yet, exceptionally followable--except for the "was that supposed to have been a volcada?" question niggling in the back of my mind.

Other times I've had that question come to mind is when they've been led extremely badly--and the question is usually phrased more like, "What in bloody freakin' h**l was that supposed to have been?!?!" Usually followed by, "Ow, my back!" That tends to come from leads who feel the best way to get a volcada to happen is to grip tightly and haul me off balance. Not appreciated.

I got past the first hurdle (and for me it was a huge one) by having a private lesson where we worked on them--and the couple wouldn't put up with my fear and insecurities. And it helped to have him leading and her doing hands-on adjustments. The revelation from that lesson was to bend the knee of the standing leg just a bit, enough to pull my heel up off the floor a touch, and to really press with the ball of my foot into the floor. Once I learned that, it was much easier.

Following that private lesson, I took a workshop with the same teachers on volcadas. The started with very basic exercises of having the lead control the followers center and free leg...then moving to counterbalancing one another...then moving to volcadas. It was an amazing demonstration of how relaxed a volcada could feel, and how little "energy" it took.

From there it's just been practice, albeit, not nearly enough.

[kieronneedscake]

A topic close to my heart, literally. Firstly I will bang the drums about girls being afraid of how heavy they are.

I don't care how huge you are, a good social volcada (i.e. not one that sweeps half the dance floor) puts only a tiny percentage of your mass onto the leader UNLESS you, the follower collapse in the middle, banana-back. Your average man can support his drunken mates and get them home, and I assure you that a drunken man is a significantly tougher person to maneuver than you, a moderately (or better - volcadas not for beginners methinks) skilled dancer.

When the follower is well connected and supporting herself, and everything else is good, volcadas are delightfully easy and require very little raw power. They can be executed with only half an embrace and no more than a firm hold.

When mine go a bit wrong, it stresses me most in the lower back and sides as I try to compensate for unexpected wobbles or a poorly positioned foot.

Therefore, ladies and gentlemen, it is not a question of upper body strength at all. Smooth motion, good technique, and a nice strong core for when it goes wonky. The only time power ever comes into it is when the technique goes out the window.

I am a light weight, average height man. I have no qualms about leading volcadas in women who are taller or heavier than me, as long as they are dancing with confidence. Why am I so vehement about all this?

"I am afraid I might break you"
"I've put on a bit of weight"
"I feel safe doing them with <insert tall heavy man here>"
"Oh wow, that was really easy"

When chaining volcadas together, they get progressively more difficult. I put this down to gradual shifting of positions away from the optimal, and increasing amazement that it's still working...

[Peaches]

Firstly I will bang the drums about girls being afraid of how heavy they are.Ha! In all the time my regular teacher tried to get me to trust him and do a volcada with him, this was always on the back of my mind. Not that I'd ever tell him that, but it was there. Rather prominently.

And then when I had the one lesson with the other set of teachers, the woman picked up on this right away. She flat-out asked me if I was reluctant because I was afraid of feeling heavy. Gotta love being put on the spot like that.

[Steve Pastor]

"a good social volcada (i.e. not one that sweeps half the dance floor) puts only a tiny percentage of your mass onto the leader "

Perhaps some of you may role your eyes as I play the Dance Geek, with the calculator, spreadsheet, and all, but here goes...

If you google images for "susana miller apilado", you find what I think is a nice picture of exactly that. She appears to be "leaning on" the man, is what most people would conclude.
Actually, the amount of weight she has "on" or toward him, is exactly the same as teh amount of weight he has "on" or towards her.
He, however, does not have to lean as much as her to put the same weight towards her. (Assumptions and qualifies later)

If she is at an angle of 30.7 degrees, her forward weight will equal his if he is at an angle of 25 degrees.

If she is at an angle of 45 degrees, her forward weight will equal his if he is at an angle of 36.4 degrees. Note the increased difference between the angles of the two parnters.

When apilado dances move together, they make adjustments to keep the the respective "forward weights" balanced.

When during a volcada, it is possible for the man to match the increasing forward weight of the woman as she "falls forward", because his feet are actually "moving backward", thus putting more of his weight "into her", balancing her forward weight.

The less skilled the man is at this, the more he has to substitute muscle strength to compensate. Both partners have to have the strength to maintain their "sides of the triangle" of course, along with the "frame" involved if not dancing chest to chest as in apilado.

It's interesting to note, too, that the more the woman picks up and moves forward the free leg, the more weight she will send forward. And of course the man has to compensate.

After looking at Physics and the Art of Dance, I did some calculations on the amount of acceleration there would be when you "free fall" forward with your foot on the floor. This is the feeling that is so discomforting for the woman when doing the volcado.

It turns out that the shorter you are, the faster the angle away from vertical increases!

Assumptions and Qualifiers:
The is a model, a gross simplification that is hopefully helpful in understanding the physical forces involved in the physical interaction of partners when dancing tango.

Calculations were done using a weight of 180 for the man and 120 for the woman.
Weight was treated as a vector, which was the hypotenuse of a right triangle.
The "short side" of the triangle increases in length as the angle increases, and represents the amount of "forward weight".
A "triangle calculator" was used to calculate the forward vector. http://www.csgnetwork.com/righttricalc.html

Pretty Geeky, no?

P.S. Actually spent some time a volcadas this past Sunday, but my partner kept letting her hips go sideways, we finally figured out, as I couldn't "feel" when her free leg had gone (or not).

[kieronneedscake]

Thank you Steve, I was going to spare everyone the mechanics homework in favour of more general assertions, but your description reminded me of some reasoning I did recently.

Banana-back makes followers "heavy" because they move their centre of mass closer and lower to the leader. /\ to /|_

Given that the contact point is where it normally is, the follower's weight now effectively hangs down from the shoulders with much less support from the legs, the bulk of the body is much further away from weightless situation of being directly over the feet. In effect, it's like leaning much further than someone who does it correctly, with the added bonus of bending your back far from its strongest position and risking injury.

[bordertangoman]

It all depends on the strength of the woman; if she has muscle tone it is easy to support her; if she's wobbly then strength is required; but it is a combination of technique- being well grounded taking the weight in your legs while keeping your back straight (in other words good heavy object lifting technique) and strenght but its easier if you are the same size or smaller than the woman as you just become a pit prop and all the load is in compression.For the taller man and the shorter woman I'm not sure how this works

[Heather2007]

Your average man can support his drunken mates and get them home, and I assure you that a drunken man is a significantly tougher person to maneuver than you,

Ha, ha, ha. Big laughs. Bromley Town Centre on a Friday night comes to mind.

[elnuevotango]

'For the taller man and the shorter woman I'm not sure how this works'- That's what I wonder. When a taller man leads me a volcada, I usually find it difficult to keep connection . I don't know what the problem is: the connection point or my axis? And how to control?

[Peaches]

Hey, there! :-)

Can you elaborate a bit more about the problem you're feeling? (And are you a leader or a follower?)

I'm short (5'3", 5'6" or 7" in heels) and my teacher is taller (probably 5'11" in shoes), so I have some experience following a volcada from a taller leader.

[bastet]

Hey, there! :-)

Can you elaborate a bit more about the problem you're feeling? (And are you a leader or a follower?)

I'm short (5'3", 5'6" or 7" in heels) and my teacher is taller (probably 5'11" in shoes), so I have some experience following a volcada from a taller leader.

Same here...I'm pretty short (under 5'4") and my other half is 6' in shoes and I dance in heels from anywhere between 2-3".

I'm assuming you talking about a volcada in a closed embrace? (We do them both ways). Where is your connection point normally when you are dancing with a taller leader?

[Peaches]

Same here...I'm pretty short (under 5'4") and my other half is 6' in shoes and I dance in heels from anywhere between 2-3".

I'm assuming you talking about a volcada in a closed embrace? (We do them both ways). Where is your connection point normally when you are dancing with a taller leader?Er...don't know if you're asking me, but I'll answer just in case.

I generally think about connecting roughly in the area of the upside-down V of the sternum. I don't think that feel changes very much in a volcada. I don't think. Perhaps I feel more pressure through my boobs than normal? But I wouldn't consider my connection to have really changed.

[bastet]

Er...don't know if you're asking me, but I'll answer just in case.

I generally think about connecting roughly in the area of the upside-down V of the sternum. I don't think that feel changes very much in a volcada. I don't think. Perhaps I feel more pressure through my boobs than normal? But I wouldn't consider my connection to have really changed.

oops- sorry- nope- I meant the person with the question, but thanks for answering. I'd give the same answer (minus cleavage, of which I have none to speak of...) :rolleyes:

[elnuevotango]

To Peaches: I'm a follower. Can you tell me ur experience?

In a volcada with a taller man, I lose connection: my connection point usually drop down. After a volcada, I cannot stand in my own axis & have to lean on the leader :( I've tried by stand on tiptoe, but it doesn't work.

[bordertangoman]

Oh, good question.

Yeah, I've been in that situation. It's tended to be with one leader in particular who just seems to have a very odd way of leading them--almost with no lean at all. Bizarre. And, yet, exceptionally followable--except for the "was that supposed to have been a volcada?" question niggling in the back of my mind.

Other times I've had that question come to mind is when they've been led extremely badly--and the question is usually phrased more like, "What in bloody freakin' h**l was that supposed to have been?!?!" Usually followed by, "Ow, my back!" That tends to come from leads who feel the best way to get a volcada to happen is to grip tightly and haul me off balance. Not appreciated.

I got past the first hurdle (and for me it was a huge one) by having a private lesson where we worked on them--and the couple wouldn't put up with my fear and insecurities. And it helped to have him leading and her doing hands-on adjustments. The revelation from that lesson was to bend the knee of the standing leg just a bit, enough to pull my heel up off the floor a touch, and to really press with the ball of my foot into the floor. Once I learned that, it was much easier.

Following that private lesson, I took a workshop with the same teachers on volcadas. The started with very basic exercises of having the lead control the followers center and free leg...then moving to counterbalancing one another...then moving to volcadas. It was an amazing demonstration of how relaxed a volcada could feel, and how little "energy" it took.

From there it's just been practice, albeit, not nearly enough.

I think that comes with time and practice. I once tried a volcada in a milonga ( my partner was aware that it was coming) and it worked without breaking the rhythm of the dance.

It worked because it was small, relaxed and fast. Something like leading a woman to a forward step but taking her weight before it arrives at her foot.

[bastet]

To Peaches: I'm a follower. Can you tell me ur experience?

In a volcada with a taller man, I lose connection: my connection point usually drop down. After a volcada, I cannot stand in my own axis & have to lean on the leader :( I've tried by stand on tiptoe, but it doesn't work.

It could be that if your connection is dropping down, you may be bending (arching) your back. There were some previous posts about this and how it feels for the leader.

In a volcada, the better technique for the follower is to keep her back from arching towards her partner (ie- she needs to keep the back and hips from dropping forward to her partner causing a sway back in herself), and to keep it as straight as the embrace allows. I'd say in any embrace, close or open, the follower needs to actively work to keep the hips from sagging forward as a good rule of thumb.

It would not be surprising at all that if you are arching your back during a volcada, that you aren't able to get back on axis during the recovery from it. as your hips may still be sagging from the volcada and then it spirals down in to a mess from there unless you can get yoru hips back up under your shoulders.

My guess from your brief description would be that you may be experiencing this less with shorter leaders becasue you may actually be a little "propped up" on them and though your back may still be arching, it may be less noticeable to you becasue there's less height difference. I can almost guarantee, though, that the leader feels it and notices even if you don't.

This would be my best guess with the info available right now.

If you have a person you can practice with, one technique thing we did in classes was to do this in open, connected at the hands and have the leader take the follower a little off axis while the follower practiced her "Plank" position of staying as straight as possible, then put her back on axis. I think it helped drive home to the follows not to arch their backs.

[Lilly_of_the_valley]

To Peaches: I'm a follower. Can you tell me ur experience?

In a volcada with a taller man, I lose connection: my connection point usually drop down. After a volcada, I cannot stand in my own axis & have to lean on the leader :( I've tried by stand on tiptoe, but it doesn't work.


In general, while your upper body has to "grow up", your lower body goes down to allow you to stay as grounded as possible. Going on the tiptoes would do just the opposite. Dancing with taller guys, even more so. The more grounded you are, the better.
During a volcada, pushing your standing leg down, into the floor and keeping that hip leveled will create a contra-force, and will help your leader to feel better where you are, and you, to find your balance sooner in case you're taken off it.

Also, elnuevotango, what is happening might not be entirely your "fault". Perhaps, your leader goes too far back during a volcada, or/and doesn't feel where your are and where your free leg goes, which results your finding yourself off balance when you are to transfer your weight. It would be great to ask somebody, a teacher, perhaps, take a look during a practica and advice.

[Peaches]

I'll just echo what others have said.

It sounds like you're not keeping your abs nice and toned, and are letting yourself get sway-backed. That makes things infinitely harder--more stressful (and painful) for your back, harder to keep your position and connection, hard to stand back up. Try to keep a nice plank position, and it will be much easier.

Also, no going up on your toes. Pull your heel (of the supporting leg) off the floor--A BIT!--not by raising up on your toes, but by bending that knee forward a little. At the same time, press the ball of that foot into the floor. Don't let one hip sag lower than the other--keep them level.

Last, but not least, bring your free leg further underneath you than you probably think you should at first. It should stay under your joined center, at least. It'll feel like you're sticking your foot way out there, but it's not as far as you might think.

Definitely ask a teacher--either in a practica or a private lesson--to work on this with you. It's not a very hard move, but I can tell you from experience that if you don't do it right (or the guy doesn't) you can end up hurting your back.

[tangomaniac]

It really depends on how far the woman is pulled off her axis. The greater the lean the more weight the man has to support. Besides, he's supposed to use his frame to support the woman, not just his arms.

[hbboogie1]

Perhaps some of you may role your eyes as I play the Dance Geek, with the calculator, spreadsheet, and all, but here goes...

So Steve what you are really trying to say is the angle of the dangle must be in correct proportion with the swingy of the thingy so if you really gotta do the volcada your partner won't end up with the mass of her ass in the grass.
Am I on the right track?

[jantango]

I must admit that I didn't know what a volcada was until a few days ago when I viewed YouTube. I've been dancing in Buenos Aires for the past ten years, and I never saw one done in the milongas.

The only partner who executed a volcada with me was Carlos Gavito, and that was 12 years ago in Chicago. It was one of his signature moves for stage. It requires space and knowing that your partner will be comfortable with it. If you don't know that a woman has back problems, it could cause injury.

Who would go to a milonga in Buenos Aires, invite a total stranger to dance, and then execute a volcada with her? It's not part of social tango here. Or is it polite to ask her before you dance the tanda if she minds if you throw in a volcada or two?

[opendoor]

The volcada is a typical "women´s technique" . I can lead hundreds if the follower knows how it works, but only one if not. But then I got an aching sholder lasting one week.

By the way: Supporting tangomaniac´s view, I found this funny pic (http://picasaweb.google.com/trames.realestate/AdriaTangoSplitTangoTanzenBerlinKomiza2008#5238800 427292180370) in the web. Hope the people don´t mind that I put the link here.

[Steve Pastor]

So Steve what you are really trying to say is the angle of the dangle must be in correct proportion with the swingy of the thingy so if you really gotta do the volcada your partner won't end up with the mass of her ass in the grass.
Am I on the right track?
Aside from the entertainment value...
I do find it a bit perplexing that many people involved with dance block out any argument/analysis that use physics. Other members would be in a better position to explain why that is.
I find it useful to understand things on as basic a level as possible. When I dance, I'm not thinking math, but if you understand how something works, I think you have a better understanding of how to actually do it.
Doesn't mean you can't do it without understanding the physics involved. If that were the case, there would be very few dancers!

This is one of the reasons I'm teaching myself to read and play music. People can say what they want. When you look at the actual scores, though, you see a complexity that goes way beyond the Cliff Notes versions of things that are usually served up.
Again, you don't have to read or play music to be an adequate dancer. I hestitate to write the you can actually be good if you don't get into the music, if only as a listener, and as a responder. Because if you don't hear and respond to the music....
In Balanchine's words, see the music, hear the dance.

OK. Done with the stream of consciouness.

[larrynla]

Years ago in the military we were taught martial arts, including the use of knives.

One day they brought in this tiny little Oriental man. We big guys all snickered - very quietly because our sergeant was there. WE were too smart to believe all those movies about mysterious samurai warriors or whatever.

Until those of us who were unlucky enough for our sergeant to catch us snickering. And he had us spar with the little guy.

Oww, oww, oww.


Laer Carroll

[newbie]

Years ago in the military we were taught martial arts, including the use of knives.

One day they brought in this tiny little Oriental man. We big guys all snickered - very quietly because our sergeant was there. WE were too smart to believe all those movies about mysterious samurai warriors or whatever.

Until those of us who were unlucky enough for our sergeant to catch us snickering. And he had us spar with the little guy.

Oww, oww, oww.


Laer Carroll

You lost because of your lack of technique, not because of your bigness. As demonstrated by Anton Geesink a bigger guy can defeat a tiny oriental.
For volcadas I rely on strength. If the lady has no technique then only my strength will prevent her from falling. If she has technique then it does not matter to her whether I use technique or strength.

[Angel HI]

Aside from the entertainment value...
I do find it a bit perplexing that many people involved with dance block out any argument/analysis that use physics. Yeah, same here. I find myself saying often on a lesson, "This has nothing to do with dance; it's basic physics".
For volcadas I rely on strength. Unfortunate. Firstly, if the lady lacks the proper tech for a volcada, one shouldn't be leading it. Secondly, certainly, if the lady is lacking, then some degree of strentgh might be required, just because. However, to default to strength seems incredibly unnecessary to me.