Please, please, please

[Tinydancergirl]

Sigh. I hope I'm not being a pest. I have read many posts here regarding pro/am pricing,(and I know what a touchy subject it is!!) but I don't think I can find or remember if this question has ever been answered, so please bear with me? I have danced pro/am and I know most of the costs/fees involved. However, I'm curious about hotel room accomodations for an upcoming event, so here's the question: how many nights do I pay for the pro's hotel room accomodations? This pro is going to compete professionally with another pro, regardless whether I compete or not, so do I have to pay for the whole hotel stay (4 nights), or just for the hotel time in which I compete (which is 1 day). And yes, I plan to ask my pro, but I was curious/eager for everyone's opinion here. THANK YOU SO MUCH IN ADVANCE FOR ANY ADVICE YOU CAN GIVE, IT IS MUCH APPRECIATED!!!!!

[Chris Stratton]

There's no universal answer.

But if you want to try to connect hotel nights to your events vs. the pro events, you should look at what day the pro events are, when it's reasonable to travel, etc.

Personally, if I was going to do a pro/am comp it would have to be a local one. I'd travel with a partner, but would not ship a pro and myself elsewhere in order to dance.

[Laura]

It all depends on what arrangement you have with the pro. Different people have different arrangements. All of the scenarios you mentioned have been used at different times by different pros.

[fascination]

what the pro chooses to ask for is the pro's perogative...but if he was going anyway, I would only pay for the night before and after the day on which I was due to dance...and if that wasn't acceptable to him...he could simply attend without me...that is also his choice

[BallandChange]

what the pro chooses to ask for is the pro's perogative...but if he was going anyway, I would only pay for the night before and after the day n which I was due to dance...and if that wasn't acceptable to him...he could simply attend without me...that is also his choice

Ditto. Good answer!

[Tinydancergirl]

what the pro chooses to ask for is the pro's perogative...but if he was going anyway, I would only pay for the night before and after the day n which I was due to dance...and if that wasn't acceptable to him...he could simply attend without me...that is also his choice

Thank you so much! That was my reasoning too; it's nice to have someone confirm it! I'm all for paying for a pro's time, they have the right to ask and expect it. However, I'm also all for being reasonable and fair with costs, and I hope that any pro that I work with will be too!

[fascination]

thanks...let me add...I wouldn't complain and gripe and moan(and I am not implying that you are doing so in any way)...I would just simply inform of my intent and accept his decision...too many accept a term they don't like and then whine...it either works for you or it doesn't...

[danceronice]

Demonstrating how lucky/spoiled I really am, you pay for your pro's hotel room? Ouch.

[Larinda McRaven]

Of course. You expect the teachers to actually be able to afford going to a competition to work for you don't you?

DOI your scenario is FAR from normal or even plausable in any other situation but the ones your teachers manage.

[danceronice]

Some manage other ways. I like the system I pay under. I can see paying travel/lodging outright if a pro has only one student. Though in the OP's situation, it sounds a bit like a racket if he's already going to be there to compete himself--if I were her, paying for one night would be reasonable. Travel and other nights would not be.

And in skating, coaches also don't get their airfare or hotels covered (if you've got a REALLY good student who makes it Worlds, USFSA will cover a little bit, but only for certain days.) They charge the students they're traveling with lost wages--good if they're relatively cheap ($60-$80/hour) or they have LOTS of students going, bad if they're top coaches ($100+/hour) with one or two skaters at the competition and lots at home they could be teaching. For tests for dancers or pairs skaters without partners (like me) it's usually a lesson fee or a half-lesson fee to skate the test with you. If they have to drive anywhere, it's cost of doing business. (Deductible, at least--I deduct the milage on my car from driving to different rinks on weekends, since it's rink to rink, not commuting, and I'm an independent contractor for the skating school.)

[fascination]

well....in my experience attending about 30 comps in the last 3 years, I have yet to meet a student who wasn't responsible, and rightly so, for some portion of their pro's room...and again, no one has a gun to their head to compete much less with one particular pro under circumstances which they find unacceptable....it is also possible that the pro signed up to dance w/ his partner there with an understanding that his student was going...if not, then my original post still stands...I would never expect my pro to pay for his own room or his meals or anything else that he wouldn't normally be doing...but then again, he is a reasonable man

[Easy]

Fascination has a great perspective of the dance business. I wish there were more students like you. I'm sure there are, but I'd like a few of you in my studio :)

When I went to The Heritage this last time, my student's dancing was done by friday night. We knew it would be that way. I would have loved to stay for saturday night, but I would have ended up spending the money I made in going, hence no real profit. She paid for the extra night and tickets for herself through my studio(I didn't mark up the extras)....I went home and mowed my lawn. I didn't expect her to pay for my extra night and expenses, and she didn't expect me to stay. She's a big girl. She had fun on her own. I love dancing with her, but had I spent my own money in staying the extra time with no profit, what would have been the point in me going? This is my living.

In the dance business, paying for your pros expenses in getting to the competition and competing with you is expected. If they need to stay an extra night or have expenses added because of bringing their partner...that's their business. If a student wants to support this couple...great, but it is certainly not expected.

[WaltzElf]

I must say, it’s fascinating just how different the US dance scene is. In Australia there just isn’t a pro-am circuit, so there’s none of this paying pros to go somewhere and dance with you.

I’ll be honest and say I can’t see why in the world you’d want to either. Again, perhaps because the Pro-Am circuit here is dead, you’re better off just finding an amateur partner and competing “properly”. There’s no prestiege in winning the few pro am comps out there either.

[ThisIsNotMe]

I must say, it’s fascinating just how different the US dance scene is. In Australia there just isn’t a pro-am circuit, so there’s none of this paying pros to go somewhere and dance with you.

I’ll be honest and say I can’t see why in the world you’d want to either. Again, perhaps because the Pro-Am circuit here is dead, you’re better off just finding an amateur partner and competing “properly”. There’s no prestiege in winning the few pro am comps out there either.

I agree - it's just so different here. But I can also see the advantage in Pro-am, given the difficulty in finding any partner at all, let alone the "right" partner to compete with. There are an awful lot of people out here who want to compete but can't because they don't have a partner. Of course, they could compete in either pro-am or individual events - but as you said, those events are pretty much dead here, so noone wants to compete in them.

[Easy]

The thing is, if she could find an amateur partner with skill and the same mindset as her(driven, skilled, and willing) then she probably wouldn't need me and would politely drop me. It just so happens she wants to be a champion and so do I.

[chocolatchica]

Ouch..... I don't know how you guys afford pro/am. I wish I could but unfortunately it's super out of my budget at the moment. Kinda bums me out because it seems very fun and a great learning experience. Maybe you could dance for the both of us :-) Please keep us up dated on hoe everything goes (if you feel comfortable doing so). I am interested in seeing how this goes.

[Joe]

Dang, this is a very descriptive post subject! :rolleyes:

[fascination]

I must say, it’s fascinating just how different the US dance scene is. In Australia there just isn’t a pro-am circuit, so there’s none of this paying pros to go somewhere and dance with you.

I’ll be honest and say I can’t see why in the world you’d want to either. Again, perhaps because the Pro-Am circuit here is dead, you’re better off just finding an amateur partner and competing “properly”. There’s no prestiege in winning the few pro am comps out there either.
please don't take this personally b/c your quote only hearkens back to hundreds since I have been on DF that prompt me to make a comment which isn't neccesarily specific to your quote.... but I have really had enough of hearing how unwise pro am is from AM dancers and how it doesn't count and they know b/c they are AM dancers...no one knows anyone else's experience ...and no sweeping generalizations such as that should be made, b/c if they can be then I am going to be tempted to start unilaterally labelling AM dancers as arrogant....and since I know some really charming ones, I think that would be horribly unfair of me

[fascination]

NOW, BOT, sigh....pro/am is expensive and I feel for folks who are limited...heck I'm loaded and I'm still limited but folks can shop around...there are great pro's out there who are transparent in their accounting and reasonable in their cost...and willing to explain when something seems unreasonable....folks have to learn to communicate and then stick with someone whose perception of how it's gonna be jives with your own

[Laura]

I have really had enough of hearing how unwise pro am is from AM dancers
Yeah me too.

[samina]

There’s no prestiege in winning the few pro am comps out there either.
There is here...those ladies & gentleman who are competitive in the open division can really kick some ballroom butt. And they are both admired & respected.

Anyway, to each his own in one's own time and way, as there are many relevant ways of looking at these things.

[Joe]

Not trying to stir up any trouble, but I suspect they are admired and respected by mainly other pro/ams, because as an am I don't have any idea who any of them are (in order to be respected and admired by me). I expect that is because I do not watch a lot of pro/am competition. Do many amateurs?

[samina]

The thing is, if she could find an amateur partner with skill and the same mindset as her(driven, skilled, and willing) then she probably wouldn't need me and would politely drop me. It just so happens she wants to be a champion and so do I.

FWIW, until I reach a certain level of accomplishment, I would not stop competing with my pro if I found an amateur partner. There's so much to be gained from training & dancing with an accomplished professional. And when the time comes to enter an am-am partnership, I want to bring as much as possible to the table in all areas, such as technique, energy, competitive experience, and knowledge.

[Laura]

It depends, Joe. One thing it depends on is how the events are scheduled -- obviously if none are scheduled in the sessions you tend to be around in, then you're not going to see it. Also, it can admittedly be difficult for people to keep track of the various student & teacher combinations (I've been doing this for years and sometimes I can't recall who is dancing with who either). I've personally found that, perhaps because people have come to know me over the years, a sort of 'fan base' has developed, and there is a good number of Amateurs in my area who do watch. So it seems to me that the 'personal interest' angle is a contributing factor -- it's not as much fun to watch an event where you know no one in it, and haven't even heard of the people.

[samina]

Not trying to stir up any trouble, but I suspect they are admired and respected by mainly other pro/ams, because as an am I don't have any idea who any of them are (in order to be respected and admired by me). I expect that is because I do not watch a lot of pro/am competition. Do many amateurs?

If open pro-am scholarships were all typically held in the evenings, as for the equivalent pro and am events, I bet you would have an opportunity to take notice.

[Joe]

It depends, Joe. One thing it depends on is how the events are scheduled -- obviously if none are scheduled in the sessions you tend to be around in, then you're not going to see it. Also, it can admittedly be difficult for people to keep track of the various student & teacher combinations (I've been doing this for years and sometimes I can't recall who is dancing with who either).
LOL, not to mention the vast ocean of age/skill categories--and whether or not you care about who has been winning the Ladies D3 Open Gold Star Rhythm, even if you are a pro/am? ;)

[samina]

And someone like Rz O comes to mind...

[Joe]

If open pro-am scholarships were all typically held in the evenings, as for the equivalent pro and am events, I bet you would have an opportunity to take notice.
I dunno...see comment(s) above. Not only would you need to remember the people in the finals, you'd need to remember several sets of them--just for one style!

[Joe]

And someone like Rz O comes to mind...
How's that?

[Laura]

LOL, not to mention the vast ocean of age/skill categories--and whether or not you care about who has been winning the Ladies D3 Open Gold Star Rhythm, even if you are a pro/am? ;)
Some people might care, some might not. Your example case doesn't even exist, so I don't care. I don't expect people to keep track of the single-dance stuff anyway. It's not like Open-level Amateurs remember all the zillions of collegiate syllabus dancers that pass through a comp, either. At some point a person can only keep track of so many other people, regardless of age or style or division. However, in the past couple of years when I've danced in Scholarship events run in the evening sessions, I've gotten a lot of support. This was not always the case, and I chalk it up in part to the fact that over the years I've come to know (at least by sight) pretty much every Amateur on the West Coast.

[Joe]

Yeah I was just using that example as hyperbole. :)

[samina]

I dunno...see comment(s) above. Not only would you need to remember the people in the finals, you'd need to remember several sets of them--just for one style!
There's no difference to seeing an exceptional open pro-am scholarship event as compared with a pro or am event...memorable dancing is memorable dancing.

[samina]

How's that?

Meaning, I've seen him compete pro-am and it served him well...and he is known & well-regarded.

[Joe]

There's no difference to seeing an exceptional open pro-am scholarship event as compared with a pro or am event...memorable dancing is memorable dancing.
Perhaps, but nothing about the dancing itself will automagically make you know who those people are who are dancing...

[Joe]

Meaning, I've seen him compete pro-am and it served him well...and he is known & well-regarded.
While I know about him, I know absolutely nothing about his pro/am career...

[Laura]

Perhaps, but nothing about the dancing itself will automagically make you know who those people are who are dancing...
Well isn't that true of everybody? If I didn't know anything at all about the people who are dancing in, say, the Pro events, I wouldn't know anything more than a name and a number -- and that's only if I had a program.

The bottom line is that if you care to know anything about a particular division or style (be it Pro Rhythm or Amateur Smooth or Pro/Am Standard or whatever), then you have to take the time to watch some of the events, and if you don't care to, that's fine, but don't complain to me about not liking or understanding something that you've already expressed little to no interest in. (And by "you" I mean the "generic" you here, not necessarily Joe specifically.)

[fascination]

Not trying to stir up any trouble, but I suspect they are admired and respected by mainly other pro/ams, because as an am I don't have any idea who any of them are (in order to be respected and admired by me). I expect that is because I do not watch a lot of pro/am competition. Do many amateurs?
well there is the thing...If you don't know you don't know and that is perfectly fine...it is those who don't know but think they do based on some narrow observation who ought to withold judgement...I don't chime in on many AM based threads b/c I am not in a position to evaluate the circumstance

[samina]

Perhaps, but nothing about the dancing itself will automagically make you know who those people are who are dancing...

well, duh, joe... that takes time with any competitive group.:rolleyes:

the point is, an elite pro-amer is going to draw your attention, be memorable, and be the sort to actually make you ask "who is that?".

[Laura]

But only if the observer doesn't immediately write-off the entire event on the floor simply because it's Pro/Am. Which does happen.

The whole thing is kind of a chicken-and-egg problem and the only way I see out of it is for people to make the effort to change things for themselves. I've put years into my effort -- I'll have to say that working my butt off at comps and so getting to know most of the Amateurs pays off when I dance a comp. You make friends with people, and they see you as a person and a dancer, and their perspective on things shifts, and they start taking an interest.

[ChaChaMama]

Point 1: As a silver syllabus dancer, I accept my lowly place in the dance universe with equanimity. I am part of an amateur partnership, and I'm sure no one knows who we are because of our dancing. (CCP's photos = another story.) I'm sure I would be equally anonymous were dancing Ladies B1 Intermediate Silver cha-cha pro-am, and again, I'm fine with that.

Point 2: The very top people in the amateur world and the pro-am world are much better known, but probably only within their own competitive worlds. The adult division in amateur international style events enjoys somewhat broader fame than others.

Point 3 (or possibly just a corollary of Point 2): I think it's true that the average amateur competitor neither knows nor cares who the top pro-am dancers are. The reverse is probably true as well, though. Would the average pro-am dancer (i.e., Registrar Laura is not in this category!) be able to name the top 3 amateur standard couples or the top 3 amateur smooth couples from this year's nationals? They might be able to name the #1 amateur latin couple, Valentin Chmerkovskiy and Valeriya Kozharinova, but would they be able to name the #2 couple in the latin division? How about #3-6?

I think everyone is a bit selective about the events and divisions they watch, and there's nothing wrong with that.

I personally deeply enjoy watching all age divisions of latin and 10 dance, but I'm sure there are many amateur competitors who don't care about the junior and youth divisions, and that's fine.

And I know--thanks to the presence of this exceptionally annoying young man sitting near me on Sunday at Nationals--that some 20-somethings consider the mere existence of Senior I Latin or Senior III Standard risible. Their problem. (Well, I gave this particular guy The Evil Eye after his nth loud and untoward comment, so he has other problems coming his way, but that too is another story.)

[Dancebug]

I think the disrespect for pro/am is rooted in the fact that it involves a lot of money. Only rich people can afford it. We hear complaints, surprises, boasts (sometimes) how expensive it is. And look how all these pro/am discussions start on this forum. Because there is a lot of money involved, it is tempting to conclude that it does not have much to do with one’s dance skill. It almost appears that the richer you are, the better chance you have to succeed as a pro/am dancer. A lot of pro/am dancers on this board will argue how hard they work to get better, but as long as money is one of the biggest issues that is discussed when it comes to pro/am, it will be very hard to beat disrespect that non-pro/am dancers have for pro/am students.

[Laura]

Yeah ChaChaMama, everyone ultimately cares most about their own little box. I laugh every time someone comes up to me when I'm working at a comp and says something like "Do you have the marks from the Latin?" And I have to answer "WHICH Latin -- what age, what proficiency level?" To them there is only ONE level that matters, THEIRS, and they don't even think that there are many many "Latin" events and that I need a little more detail to help them find the right one. If I had a dollar for every time this has happened over the years, I wouldn't have to pay for my next plane ticket to the East Coast.

[Larinda McRaven]

BOT. (And can we take the pro-am vs am-am out of the discussion... it isn't at all what the OP's question was about.)

The other side of the coin...

Pro could say they would be going to do pro-am regardless of whether or not they were doing Pro, and therefore they only need to cover their own expenses on the Pro night and the student should cover all else.

Because believe me after having done both, together and seperate, for many many years... the weekend expenditure is far more when I have to include pro-am than when I do only pro and can just fly in, dance, and fly out immediatley.

[samina]

Only rich people can afford it.

to be fair, i am not rich. i am a hard-working single mother with no trust fund, no alimony, no one covering my expenses.

[Laura]

I think the disrespect for pro/am is rooted in the fact that it involves a lot of money. Only rich people can afford it. We hear complaints, surprises, boasts (sometimes) how expensive it is. And look how all these pro/am discussions start on this forum. Because there is a lot of money involved, it is tempting to conclude that it does not have much to do with one’s dance skill. It almost appears that the richer you are, the better chance you have to succeed as a pro/am dancer. A lot of pro/am dancers on this board will argue how hard they work to get better, but as long as money is one of the biggest issues that is discussed when it comes to pro/am, it will be very hard to beat disrespect that non-pro/am dancers have for pro/am students.
I think people use the money issue as an excuse for dissing Pro/Am, not as an actual reason. Because if it came down to just money, and people reasoned through it, they would acknowledge that *all* DanceSport is quite expensive, especially as you climb higher in the levels. Sure, when you start out you and your Amateur partner can split a lesson every week or two, and you can wear a practice skirt to compete in, but later on you start getting into tail suits and expensive dresses and lessons with coaches brought in from Europe and so on. And don't even get me started on what my various teachers have spent time and money wise on training for their Pro events.

The Pro/Am-money connection is an easy target, though, made even more so by the various cases of actual exploitation that have cropped up over the years.

[Easy]

FTR competitions are long. I only watch the events I'm interested in. Some of the Pro events, some of the Am events, and some of the Pro/Am events. I see arrogance in all three, and I see beauty and humbleness in all three as well. For someone to say there is no prestiege in winning a Pro/Am event is just ludicrous. There is a high level of competition in all of these divisions. Am/Ams love to downtalk studios, yet they love to go to them for the coaching and the socials...go figure.

In the States at least, if there weren't any Pro/Am competitions, there wouldn't be enough business to keep most of the competitions going. There wouldn't be any donors to help with the Pro competitions, which I think is silly to begin with. The Pros and the Ams with their one or two division entries couldn't support a competition. Basically I just love watching great dancing as well as watching people I am familiar with. Unless it's a very high level, when the Ams compete, I usually use this time for my prestigious cigarette break. I really have no idea what I'll do once I quit smoking ;)

[BasicsFirst]

It almost appears that the richer you are, the better chance you have to succeed...

Not to hijack your point (or the thread), but... the SAME can be said in the Am-Am world. WITH exception, the one with the most lessons wins, (and for more reasons than just that you/they are taking more lessons).

Speaking from the Am/Am side, from what I hear (and IMO) it's not because of the money. I'd say it's because a lot of Am's feel it's 10 times easier (or whatever factor you hear quoted that day) to dance with a pro, than with another Am. Personnally I disagree with this mentality.

[samina]

Pro could say they would be going to do pro-am regardless of whether or not they were doing Pro, and therefore they only need to cover their own expenses on the Pro night and the student should cover all else.

Because believe me after having done both, together and seperate, for many many years... the weekend expenditure is far more when I have to include pro-am than when I do only pro and can just fly in, dance, and fly out immediatley.

i know that my own pro has an in-and-out attitude for competing... they don't generally stick around. so it seems a no-brainer to me to cover hotel & food when it requires staying over for competing the next day, or finishing late. at the same time, i plan on attending comps i know my pro is already planning to attend.

i am grateful that i have a frugal-minded pro who is focused only on what matters, the dancing and the social connection surrounding the event. and i regularly bring food & drink for convenience and savings.

[skwiggy]

The other side of the coin...

Pro could say they would be going to do pro-am regardless of whether or not they were doing Pro, and therefore they only need to cover their own expenses on the Pro night and the student should cover all else.

Because believe me after having done both, together and seperate, for many many years... the weekend expenditure is far more when I have to include pro-am than when I do only pro and can just fly in, dance, and fly out immediatley.

Are the pro's travel expenses tax deductible? Is this ever factored in when calculating reimbursement from the student for expenses? Just curious.

[Larinda McRaven]

Only if we don't take compensation for it in the first place. If it is covered, then no. But still deduction is only a Percentage... not the whole amount.

BACK ON TOPIC PLEASE. Take the am-am vs pro-am debate out of here.

[Laura]

I'd say it's because a lot of Am's feel it's 10 times easier (or whatever factor you hear quoted that day) to dance with a pro, than with another Am. Personnally I disagree with this mentality.
So what, are they jealous or something? Another excuse. If said Am thought it through, they'd realize that even if it is easier to dance with a Pro than with another Am, then when the Pro/Am student tried Amateur they'd be back on the same playing field as all the other Ams, so the whole thing becomes a wash.

Sometimes I think it's all arguing for argument's sake. Or that a subset of dance competitors is so needy and narcissistic that they feel that their little segment of the DanceSport world has to be the most important, and that the way to make that happen is just to look down on everyone else, be it Pro/Am, or Amateur Rhythm dancers, or Senior dancers, etc.

[tanya_the_dancer]

Point 1: As a silver syllabus dancer, I accept my lowly place in the dance universe with equanimity. I am part of an amateur partnership, and I'm sure no one knows who we are because of our dancing. (CCP's photos = another story.) I'm sure I would be equally anonymous were dancing Ladies B1 Intermediate Silver cha-cha pro-am, and again, I'm fine with that.

Point 2: The very top people in the amateur world and the pro-am world are much better known, but probably only within their own competitive worlds. The adult division in amateur international style events enjoys somewhat broader fame than others.

Point 3 (or possibly just a corollary of Point 2): I think it's true that the average amateur competitor neither knows nor cares who the top pro-am dancers are. The reverse is probably true as well, though. Would the average pro-am dancer (i.e., Registrar Laura is not in this category!) be able to name the top 3 amateur standard couples or the top 3 amateur smooth couples from this year's nationals? They might be able to name the #1 amateur latin couple, Valentin Chmerkovskiy and Valeriya Kozharinova, but would they be able to name the #2 couple in the latin division? How about #3-6?

I think everyone is a bit selective about the events and divisions they watch, and there's nothing wrong with that.

I personally deeply enjoy watching all age divisions of latin and 10 dance, but I'm sure there are many amateur competitors who don't care about the junior and youth divisions, and that's fine.

And I know--thanks to the presence of this exceptionally annoying young man sitting near me on Sunday at Nationals--that some 20-somethings consider the mere existence of Senior I Latin or Senior III Standard risible. Their problem. (Well, I gave this particular guy The Evil Eye after his nth loud and untoward comment, so he has other problems coming his way, but that too is another story.)

It's a very good point. I think ultimately most people watch the events they care about and most of the time don't remember the results or the names unless it was someone they know personally. Most of the time, when I am at a competition, I would watch just pro events, because I think they're more interesting to watch (and I might not be coming to evening sessions at all, depending on the ticket price). I certainly don't keep track of top am-am competitors.

[Laura]

As far as expenses go, there are reasonable and customary expenses in every field, and just because things are done one way in one area doesn't mean that they can or should be done the same way everywhere. In some "lecture circuits," the speakers are pretty much treated like rock stars and get everything paid for plus a speaking fee (or everything is covered by a rather large speaking fee). In others, the speakers are expected to pay their own expenses (including international plane tickets) to attend the conference, and just get into the conference for free and maybe get a dinner party thrown in.

In Pro/Am the student is paying a professional for their time and services. There are MANY different expense arrangements, I've heard of everything from "since I'm going to dance Pro you don't have to pay for my hotel" (rare) to "there's a $10k flat fee for this comp" (rare but high-profile). Between these two extremes there are MANY MANY MANY variations. Everyone has their own "value point" that balances what they think is fair versus what they'd like to get or what they'd like to spend.

It is extremely important to find out when getting into Pro/Am what your teacher plans on charging. It seems that a good number of people never have this discussion, and then when it comes time to go to a comp the student ends up being surprised and even hurt when they find out the fees. And there are even a few teachers out there who are kind of duplicitous about it, but I don't think that's as much as an issue as it was about 10 years ago when I first started out.

If you don't like the terms your teacher sets for dancing in a comp, then your options are to try to talk about it or to find another teacher. I say "try" to talk about it because it's quite possible the teacher isn't open to negotiation. But on the other hand, if you don't ask nicely, then you won't know. But also don't get all huffy and indignant about it, the vast majority of Pros are very aware of how much things costs and what it costs the in terms of time/money/effort to dance a comp, and so sets their prices accordingly.

The bottom line is that competitive dancing, no matter how you do it, is an expensive hobby. It's also an elective hobby. No one is making you dance, no one is making you spend money that you don't want to spend. Believe me, no one understands the frustrations and disappointments involved in this hobby, on both the Amateur and Pro/Am side, better than I. Okay, that sounds really full of hubris, but I've heard so many stories and talked to so many people over the years that I really feel I have a good handle on this. When there is a strong enough will, there is a way, although sometimes that way is so long and convoluted that it seems impossible. Railing about the unfairness of it all will only get you so far, and after a while it gives you a bitter attitude.

[Chris Stratton]

The Pros and the Ams with their one or two division entries couldn't support a competition.

Actually there are many thriving amateur-only competitions doing quite well.

Part of the reason you get the impression that amateur entries can't support a competition is that the triple-format competitions you are going to are not generally the best place to dance in amateur divisions below championship. The fuller (often huge) lower-division amateur fields are found instead at the am-only competitions, which evolved largely to support them in a practical, inexpensive way that the triple-format competitions were not. They are a reaction to things like ballroom-entry tickets on top of registration fees, hotel costs, complicated entry procedures, prohibition of same sex couples even in basic syllabus, bans on private camcorders, and yes, even sanctioning organization registration fees. Higher level amateur competitors grow into a near-professional role where being part of the evening session at a triple-format comp is very much worthwhile, but at the lower development levels they have much less to offer.

In terms of the amateur division, the different sorts of competitions really have their focus at different levels - syllabus at some will be misleadingly small, open at others misleadingly weak or with large gaps between one or two couples and the remainder. To get a true impression of the people out there, you have to watch each level at a competition that's known for hosting that level of that division.

[Larinda McRaven]

As far as expenses go, there are reasonable and customary expenses in every field, ...

thank you

[Laura]

However, I'm curious about hotel room accomodations for an upcoming event, so here's the question: how many nights do I pay for the pro's hotel room accomodations? This pro is going to compete professionally with another pro, regardless whether I compete or not, so do I have to pay for the whole hotel stay (4 nights), or just for the hotel time in which I compete (which is 1 day).
By the way, I never really answered this specifically.

I had one teacher who initially never charged for travel expenses because he basically never took students out of town. After a couple of out-of-town comps, he started charging a flat fee of a couple hundred bucks on top of his per-dance fees. After a few more comps, he started adding up his hotel and plane ticket expenses and dividing it amongst all the students who he danced with that weekend. I was fine with all these arrangements, and we never got into splitting hairs like "well she danced two styles on different days and I only danced one" or "but he was also dancing in his Pro events." It was just split up evenly, and I thought it worked out quite well.

I had another teacher who didn't do any of that, but charged a much larger per-dance fee, designed so that it would cover his expenses while being proportionally spread out amongst his students: in other words, the ones who danced with him the most ended up paying him the largest percentage of his expenses. That seemed fair to me, too.

[Dancebug]

We all know there are always exceptions, but what I described in my first post is general impression among non-pro/am dancers. I don’t think a few exceptions can beat that impression.

I think Laura’s attitude is admirable and is the right way to go. However I wonder how many pros or NDCA comp organizers would do pro/am competitions if there is not a lot of money to be made.

[Larinda McRaven]

However I wonder how many pros or NDCA comp organizers would do pro/am competitions if there is not a lot of money to be made.

Obviously most of them... since I have only broke even on pro-am comps for years.

[Laura]

Based on how my various teachers have charged for comps (and I would get actual invoices, so I know the numbers weren't being pulled up out of the air), I can't say that my teachers were doing much more than breaking even either!

[Dancebug]

But if Larinda and Laura’s experiences are the norm and common expectation, this kind of thread would not have started in the first place, would it?

[Chris Stratton]

We all know there are always exceptions, but what I described in my first post is general impression among non-pro/am dancers. I don’t think a few exceptions can beat that impression.

It's not the money that creates the bad feelings, it's the unsustainable-without-the-money situations that it sometimes builds. The more someone becomes used to dancing with a "perfect" partner, they lesser the chance that they will ever be able to dance with a "human" one. And while advancing skills helps, the further into the dance world you go, the smaller it gets, meaning that there become fewer and fewer potential partners to choose from.

Really the best partner-finding prospects are in honest bronze and silver - there are some real skills that make things possible, but there's not yet a life-altering-scale training investment separating dancers from potential dancers.

But in terms of comp costs like pro's hotel room, my reaction is more rolling-of-eyes than criticism - I'd debate the decision that the expense follows from, rather than the straightforward logic of it following from that decision.

[fascination]

I think the disrespect for pro/am is rooted in the fact that it involves a lot of money. Only rich people can afford it. We hear complaints, surprises, boasts (sometimes) how expensive it is. And look how all these pro/am discussions start on this forum. Because there is a lot of money involved, it is tempting to conclude that it does not have much to do with one’s dance skill. It almost appears that the richer you are, the better chance you have to succeed as a pro/am dancer. A lot of pro/am dancers on this board will argue how hard they work to get better, but as long as money is one of the biggest issues that is discussed when it comes to pro/am, it will be very hard to beat disrespect that non-pro/am dancers have for pro/am students.well look, there are crappy rich dancers and there are excellent rich dancers and there are average rich dancers...resist the temptation....

[fascination]

bottom line...regarding OP...the pro has set the standard, the student has the perogative to accept or decline

[Larinda McRaven]

But if Larinda and Laura’s experiences are the norm and common expectation, this kind of thread would not have started in the first place, would it?

Yes it would, because the assumption that teachers are overcharging the students is so stupidly prevalent...and is what promts these threads.

No one but the teachers (who obviously are not here to defend themselves) and an occasional student, who does enough pro-am to see the expenditures weekend after weekend, really understand just how hard it is to make a buck at a pro-am weekend.

[Chris Stratton]

Yes it would, because the assumption that teachers are overcharging the students is so stupidly prevalent...and is what promts these threads.

I don't know about that. I think the expense is unreal even when they do charge fairly. Put simply, people are expensive, regardless if they are teaching you a dance lesson, checking your blood pressure, or working on your car.

For many in the amateur dance world, our lesson are the nearly the only area where we habitually pay out of pocket for what is obviously another person's clock time. For some segments of the pro/am population, dancing is just one of many areas in which they habitually pay for other's time.

[Laura]

Put simply, people are expensive, regardless if they are teaching you a dance lesson, checking your blood pressure, or working on your car.
Yes, people are expensive. When I was sewing, non-dancers would sometimes ask me how much it would cost for me to make them something. For instance, I have this really cute reversible fake fur-polar fleece jacket. Someone at a party asked me how much it would cost to make them one, and I told them it would be about $225. They were aghast. Well, too bad, but based on the amount of time it took me to construct the jacket, plus the materials etc., that is what it costs. Everyone always wants to pay the absolute cheapest for things, but some things just cost -- a good car mechanic, dancing with your teacher at a comp, having someone custom-make you a fake fur jacket.

[fascination]

just as a case in point...my pro...for a short comp involving only his thursday eve through saturaday schedule would be missing at least the cost of 6 lessons on thurs, fri an saturday...I also expect that if he is going to be ready to dance at the crack of dawn on thurs and until dinner on saturday that he is going to need wed thurs fri and saturday eve at the hotel at my expense and or some shared proportion dependent upon who else is going...I also do not expect that he will be packing the inexpensive nutritious homegrown meals to which he is accustomed when he is at home and that room service prices and meals out are an expense that he would not otherwise incur...if he had a pro partner and they were dancing at that comp, it wouldn't much change my expenses as I would likely be going b/c they were or visa versa...

a prudent approach might be for a student to have a number ($$$$) beyond which they are not willing to go and base what they are going to do uon that...and let the pro collaborate and flex accordingly...must go to gratitude thread and post how grateful I am for pro again

[gingerbread]

Based on how my various teachers have charged for comps (and I would get actual invoices, so I know the numbers weren't being pulled up out of the air), I can't say that my teachers were doing much more than breaking even either!

you got actual invoices? I am impressed. Years ago I had a teacher who never charged for his hotel or airfare because he was planning to compete professionally, but I'm afraid the world has changed much since then. In the city where I live, the professionals I know wouldn't even understand such an idea. I do believe they do ProAm and bring students to comps because that is the only way to support their own training costs and travel. Here the trend is to charge a flat fee. I imagine in some comps, depending on number of students going, it's a nice amount that helps pay their debts. I think teachers talk to new arrivals (from Europe) on how to go about doing ProAm so the system becomes widespread in the geographic region. When one teacher raises his fee, teachers of a similar rank then raise theirs also. It certainly is wise to discuss rates before beginning to study with someone rather than be surprised.

[fascination]

I don't know about that. I think the expense is unreal even when they do charge fairly. Put simply, people are expensive, regardless if they are teaching you a dance lesson, checking your blood pressure, or working on your car.

For many in the amateur dance world, our lesson are the nearly the only area where we habitually pay out of pocket for what is obviously another person's clock time. For some segments of the pro/am population, dancing is just one of many areas in which they habitually pay for other's time.and so????does that mean that the pro-ammer feels no compunction to actually learn and benefit from that expense?...nevermind, we aren't going there....look, good instruction whether it be a coach or AMs, pro/ams, or a pro/am lesson, is costly...and what one does with it has nothing to do with what category under which one dances...nuff said

[Chris Stratton]

look, good instruction whether it be a coach or AMs, pro/ams, or a pro/am lesson, is costly...and what one does with it has nothing to do with what category under which one dances...nuff said

No, but the category determines if you pay only for instruction, or for instruction and every other minute that you dance with a partner.

I like Laura's jacket example - often people are too expensive for most of us to contemplate using their time other than in the form of mutual recreation. Most people couldn't afford to have me make them something, but under some circumstances I might do it for fun.

It's the same thing with dancing - if you can't afford someone's time to dance with you, then you have to dance with someone who will dance with you for their own enjoyment. Yes, you still have to pay for a persons time out of pocket to get lessons - but only for lessons.

If you look at what someone's time is worth in terms of what it would cost to purchase some of it from our employers... I don't think my partner and I could afford to practice together!

[fascination]

well...be that as it may...some folks enjoy what they are paid to do and are equally invested in it...beyond that, and more germaine to the OP, those are generally the ones who are reasonable

[Tinydancergirl]

Wow. :o Ask a simple question and seven pages later....lol. No, really, this thread has been fascinating to read, thank you one and all. I know how a thread can get sidetracked, especially regarding pro/am. If I may, maybe I can clear up something regarding my pro, so that you do not think ill of him. First, he has been nothing short of fantastic to me. We click/mesh together fanstatically. And besides being pro-am dance partners, we are very good friends. He would never, ever take advantage of my financial situation. I'm not afraid to ask or pay his fees, I was just curious as what I should pay regarding hotel stays (we've only danced locally so far). As to the discussion regarding am/am vs. pro/am, I am very glad that I have him teaching me, because he is relentess, always pushing me to do better. I truly don't think I could have learned as much dancing am/am. However, I am always on the lookout for a amateur partner, and my pro is looking for me too. So, I see everything as a win/win situation, for both parties. :D
Tinydancergirl

[tuftufwang]

Wow. :o Ask a simple question and seven pages later....lol. No, really, this thread has been fascinating to read, thank you one and all. I know how a thread can get sidetracked, especially regarding pro/am. If I may, maybe I can clear up something regarding my pro, so that you do not think ill of him. First, he has been nothing short of fantastic to me. We click/mesh together fanstatically. And besides being pro-am dance partners, we are very good friends. He would never, ever take advantage of my financial situation. I'm not afraid to ask or pay his fees, I was just curious as what I should pay regarding hotel stays (we've only danced locally so far). As to the discussion regarding am/am vs. pro/am, I am very glad that I have him teaching me, because he is relentess, always pushing me to do better. I truly don't think I could have learned as much dancing am/am. However, I am always on the lookout for a amateur partner, and my pro is looking for me too. So, I see everything as a win/win situation, for both parties. :D
Tinydancergirl

That's a nice situation that you are in. Some Pros don't want to help their students look for am partners for selfish reasons obviously. With a little help from DF discussions plus using some judgment on your own, you can probably figure out if you are being exploited or not. I found out through reading lots of threads in DF that my Pro was really being more than fair to me and is always considerate towards my budget. Money is usually quite a sensitive topic as evident from the many heated discussions here regarding Pro/Am but as long as you bring it up in a tactful and reasonable manner, I'm sure your Pro would give you a straight honest response.

[fascination]

Don't you also have to reward your pro lavishly with special gifts, especially if you scored well? I happen to believe that there are also skillful vendors who corner us students to buy expensive gifts from them for our excellent pros who helped us to win. In such a situation, it's difficult to be penny pinching. Are there any students who were in this situation?I have put "have" in bold b/c I think that is the optimal word...no one HAs to be generous or fair or anything else...if they choose to do so , they choose to do so....and I think most good relationships involve a fair amount of reasonable charges and reciproal generosity...not at all b/c anyone feels pressured by anyone else

[Laura]

Some Pros don't want to help their students look for am partners for selfish reasons obviously.
I've heard this stated many times over the past decade, and I'm curious: is there anyone here for whom this is a first-hand experience and not hearsay? Because every teacher I've ever worked with in Pro/Am has made it his priority to teach his students to dance, and is happy and supportive of them forming amateur partnerships. (And after all, if a student gets a partner, the Pro can coach them both, make the same amount of money, and have less wear and tear on his body.) I'm thinking hard and I don't know anyone who has been told this.

Well, I was sort of once, but the Pro was joking.

Maybe this should be a new thread?

[Laura]

I have put "have" in bold b/c I think that is the optimal word...no one HAs to be generous or fair or anything else...if they choose to do so , they choose to do so....and I think most good relationships involve a fair amount of reasonable charges and reciproal generosity...not at all b/c anyone feels pressured by anyone else
I don't think I've ever given gifts at a comp, or even given any regularly. If I'm moved to gift I'll do it (bought teacher a pair of cuff links once) but it's not like I make out my Christmas list and go "and I need to buy something for teacher." Oh, and once I was so happy to be "in the money" at a comp that I gave teacher the entire check as a present. But it's a spontaneous thing, nothing is expected or necessary in my opinion.

[fascination]

exactly...from time to time I am aware that there is something on the "needs to be replaced " list or the "isn't that cool?" list...and from time to time b/c I am quite certain that my pro is on the low end of the pricing continuum, I may feel inclined to do something, particularly b/c I am usually primarily responsible for the destruction of whatever he wears ;) but I have never once had the impression that I was obligated

[fascination]

I've heard this stated many times over the past decade, and I'm curious: is there anyone here for whom this is a first-hand experience and not hearsay? Because every teacher I've ever worked with in Pro/Am has made it his priority to teach his students to dance, and is happy and supportive of them forming amateur partnerships. (And after all, if a student gets a partner, the Pro can coach them both, make the same amount of money, and have less wear and tear on his body.) I'm thinking hard and I don't know anyone who has been told this.

Well, I was sort of once, but the Pro was joking.

Maybe this should be a new thread?
this is my experience as well

[tangotime]

Don't you also have to reward your pro lavishly with special gifts, especially if you scored well?




I have had numerous pro and amat. champ. winners and NEVER had a gift of any kind--- nor would I want one.

The reward is always in their success .

[samina]

...but some things just cost -- a good car mechanic, dancing with your teacher at a comp, having someone custom-make you a fake fur jacket.

yep. c'est la vie...

[BallandChange]

I've heard this stated many times over the past decade, and I'm curious: is there anyone here for whom this is a first-hand experience and not hearsay? Because every teacher I've ever worked with in Pro/Am has made it his priority to teach his students to dance, and is happy and supportive of them forming amateur partnerships. (And after all, if a student gets a partner, the Pro can coach them both, make the same amount of money, and have less wear and tear on his body.) I'm thinking hard and I don't know anyone who has been told this.

Well, I was sort of once, but the Pro was joking.

Maybe this should be a new thread?

I hope to believe that this didn't happen to me but I had recently asked a woman to consider the start of an AM/AM partnership and she agreed. I did get a sense from her instructor (and by the way he is also my coach) that he was lukewarm about our partnership. Nonetheless, after our first practice session she decided to rescind on the possibility of us working together. She stated that, although she was thrilled with the thought of working with me since I dance above her current level and that she was flattered that I asked, she wanted to concentrate all of her efforts on working with her instructor towards her pro/am goals. I accept her at her word but it does make me wonder.

[gingerbread]

I too work with a professional who is very considerate of my low finances, which he certainly doesn't need to be, and I am most appreciative. And no one has ever pushed me harder, or taken me more seriously, which makes me glow inside, even when he is being his toughest. Reading some of the comments makes me realize that I do forget how much he would earn a day if he were back home rather than at a competition. What I mean is, yes, he would be going to the competition anyway to compete professionally, but if he goes one day early because my event is one day early (and he does grumble about it a bit), then yes, he does deserve the flat rate which will compensate him for that. I still think that some of the pros do make a nice profit, but they usually need it to recoup their own training expenses. I personally am a a low point financially these days because I have spent too much on dancing (sigh), but it's my own doing, no one else's. The addiction of dance. There is nothing like it. I giggle when I hear the Dancing With The Stars celebrities discovering how addictive it is, but that is not this thread, I know.

[BallandChange]

I don’t have any issues with paying the pro for their time (a cost per heat plus some fixed cost fee), personal travel and living expenses and all the competition expenses for them to compete with me at a pro/am event. I do have an issue in that my studio (a franchised studio) also adds on an additional studio fee for independent comps even though there is no loss of the pros time to the studio. I don’t know whether this is SOP procedure for all studios, other franchised studios or just my studio. I don’t know whether this is to discourage the participation at independent comps so as to bolster attendance at franchised sponsored events. I was wondering if other experiences the same expenses and/or what are the opinions of other in this regards.

[fascination]

oh lordy...chuckle...it's just gonna be one of those days around here

(perhaps some of our active pros can handle this)

[BallandChange]

oh lordy...chuckle...it's just gonna be one of those days around here

(perhaps some of our active pros can handle this)

LOL

[Larinda McRaven]

If your teacher is independant there is no studio overhead. It has nothing to do with franchise or not, and if the pro is going to the competition ... there IS loss of time at the studio. And the studio neds to pay the pro for the service and pay the rent... same as they do when they sell you lessons. You pay X to the studio and the studio pays X-Y to the pro.

The studio is selling a service. Like a dryer repair man that comes to your house. You pay the company a markup, they pay the repair man for the labor.

What is the question?

[BallandChange]

The studio is selling a service. Like a dryer repair man that comes to your house. You pay the company a markup, they pay the repair man for the labor. What is the question?

In this instance, I write a check to the pro for their expenses & comp fees and then a second check to the studio for the studio fees (for loss of service), the fixed cost for pro's time at the comp and the pro's fees per event). I guess it would be easier to swallow if it was included as a markup rather than another itemized expense. It is also understandable if the pro's time at the comp is depriving the studio of their services but this is usually not the case on a Saturday evening. I appreciate that the studio is entitled to be compensated for providing the pro's services but the cost per event and fixed cost that is paid to the studio is fairly sizeable. At the end of the day having my instructor dance with me at an independent event is significantly higher than the cost at a franchised event.

[wooh]

I've heard this stated many times over the past decade, and I'm curious: is there anyone here for whom this is a first-hand experience and not hearsay?

Me. Old teacher, got it in his head he was going to start competing with his students. (He had hated competitive dancing, but that went out the window when he'd gotten divorced and had child support to pay and couldn't pay that and his mortgage with just social dancers anymore. Old teacher (amongst many other problems) was totally against me competing with my husband but thought it a brilliant idea that I compete with him (and strangely, I'd prior to this shown no interest in competing with him OR my husband). And there's no giving him the benefit of the doubt, it was totally because he'd make more money with me as a pro-am student than with me and husband as am-am competitors. Of course, by then I was smart enough to realize that if I did want to compete, I'd go elsewhere, and if I was going to compete pro-am, I'd probably like to find someone that wasn't a full 6 inches shorter than me. And not long after that, I got tired of listening to him whine about poor him getting caught sleeping with his students and how hard it was for him getting divorced, especially since he'd just spend our lessons screwing with my head making me think I couldn't dance when the fact was, he just couldn't teach me any more. But all is good now, because my current instructor rocks.
But the point of that long rant was, yes, sometimes there are dance instructors that will push you to pro-am to make themselves money even if there's a good partner available for you.

[wooh]

And after all, if a student gets a partner, the Pro can coach them both, make the same amount of money, and have less wear and tear on his body.

A lot of the lessons are part practice time, part learning time in pro-am though, are they not? If I dance with teacher, not only do I need to learn, but I need to practice it with him. If I dance with am partner, I can take the 10 minutes in a lesson to learn it, then take the 2 hours it takes to get it passable with my am partner. With pro, I'm paying pro for 2 hours and 10 minutes. With am partner, I'm paying pro for 10 minutes. So in essence, a pro makes more money off of 1 pro-am person than off of one amateur couple. Although, if amateur couple were able to practice and STILL have time to take all those lessons that pro-am half would have taken, they'd possibly be awesome. Ehh, who knows.

[Larinda McRaven]

I have no idea what you just said...

[Chris Stratton]

Made sense to me. She's implying that something requires 10 minutes of instruction and two hours of practice. In pro/am she pays for all of that, in am/am she pays for 10 minutes and practices for free.

Of course there are some problems with the numbers. You can't get a ten minute lesson (which is too bad, as it's a model with a lot to recommend it) so you have to cover several things in your allotted time and remember them all. You often can't practice them as well with your partner as you could with your teacher (though sometimes the reverse is true, in that you take more of it onto yourself), and finally practice often isn't free.

(On ten minute lessons, what I mean is instead of teaching couple A, B, C , D sequentially 45 minutes each, the teachers does ABCDABCDABCDABCD all evening while they practice, hopefully getting back to them just as they need some more input)

[Laura]

I accept her at her word but it does make me wonder.
Take her at her word. Some people do feel that way -- or at least I've definitely met people who do.

[Laura]

I do have an issue in that my studio (a franchised studio) also adds on an additional studio fee for independent comps even though there is no loss of the pros time to the studio. I don’t know whether this is SOP procedure for all studios, other franchised studios or just my studio.
It was SOP when I was dancing at a franchise, it has never been part of the picture when I've been dancing at independent studios and/or with independent teachers.

[Larinda McRaven]

Yup. That is how it goes. He works for them. You pay the studio and they give a cut of it to him for his service.

The only thing that seems wonky is that they want two seperate checks. Seems like they are just avoiding getting taxed on money that goes to him, which is fine I guess... But really waht does it matter if it is one check or two if in the end if $X is worth it to you. If $X is too rich for your blood, then you can always try to talk them down, or not go.

[danceronice]

Don't you also have to reward your pro lavishly with special gifts, especially if you scored well? I happen to believe that there are also skillful vendors who corner us students to buy expensive gifts from them for our excellent pros who helped us to win. In such a situation, it's difficult to be penny pinching.

:shock: Uh....no. I think the most I do is Christmas cookies (and that's my stock gift for everyone except my two closest friends, ie the bridesmaid-for-each-other level.) Not only would that feel bizarrely awkward, I'm not sure it's even entirely appropriate. In any case my pros know I can't afford it and if I did have extra money they'd prefer I spend it on lessons (which I would--I'd take two a week EACH with them if I had the money and they had the schedule time.) How many different jobs I work has become something of a running gag. Except where I flaked and had to stop and count because *I* couldn't remember! There are ways to do pro-am without being rich. They just involve a lot of work and accepting that you can sleep when you're dead.

Okay, so I periodically give one of them some of my home-baking experiments. But I also randomly gift coworkers the same way. There I'm just a sucker for an appreciative audience. (Compliment my baking, you have me for life.) It's unrelated to performance.

To me, if you have more than a couple students, a flat-fee system or a method of spreading the expense between all the students evenly seems to be a lot more logical, if only from an accounting perspective. Besides the expense, I'd go mildly nuts keeping track of anyone's expenses but my own. If travel expenses/gas prices/other general cost of doing business goes up, the fee goes up. One student, yes, I can see that, though I still consider it fuzzy to charge for everything if the pro was going to be there regardless. If it ads an extra day, you charge for the extra day, not the ones you were going to be there anyway, and maybe split the airfare.

[wooh]

I have no idea what you just said...
:)Not surprised, reading back, doesn't make a lot of sense to me.:)
Sorry, studying today for a class I'm taking and when I'm taking breaks, my brain is only half-functioning.
So since not sure which post you meant or both:
First post:
Yep, I've had a teacher that tried to push pro-am instead of amateur partnership simply to make himself more money. He was a bad person in other ways, so I don't find his ways indicative of dance instructors as a whole. But there are bad apples here and there.
Second post:
Theoretically, pro-am should bring a pro more money.
I dance with pro, and need an hour to learn something and 2 hours to practice it, I have to pay pro for 3 hours, because he's not just my instructor, but he's also my practice partner.
I get an amateur partner, then pro only gets 1 hour out of me, because the 2 hours I need to practice, I'm doing with my amateur partner instead of with pro.
In theory. In practice other factors come into play.
And to be clear, I'm not against pro-am, or think it's "less" than amateur or pro. So hope I'm not raising any hackles with my post. Just giving my reasons for why I think the "greedy pros trying to stop their students from getting an amateur partner" idea sometimes comes up, in response to Laura's question if it ever really happens.

[Larinda McRaven]

They just involve a lot of work and accepting that you can sleep when you're dead.
:uplaugh:

[Another Elizabeth]

Theoretically, pro-am should bring a pro more money.
I dance with pro, and need an hour to learn something and 2 hours to practice it, I have to pay pro for 3 hours, because he's not just my instructor, but he's also my practice partner.
I get an amateur partner, then pro only gets 1 hour out of me, because the 2 hours I need to practice, I'm doing with my amateur partner instead of with pro.
In theory. In practice other factors come into play.
One such factor is the demand for the pro. If he can fill his teaching time with the teaching hours, without needing the practice hours to fill out his schedule, then he earns the same amount of money with less wear and tear on his body.

[wooh]

One such factor is the demand for the pro. If he can fill his teaching time with the teaching hours, without needing the practice hours to fill out his schedule, then he earns the same amount of money with less wear and tear on his body.

Very true. I wonder how many pros that currently do pro-am could fill those extra hours with couples? Especially pros that have a few students that take LOTS of hours each week. A basic business principle is you can get more clients or you can sell more to each client (the second tends to be easier in a lot of businesses.) So say a pro wants to work 40 hours a week. Marketing to, tracking and maintaining 20 couples at 2 hours each per week instead of 5 ladies at 8 hours each might create more mental wear and tear (and take more non-lesson time) than the 5 ladies were causing physical wear/tear.
But theories, schmeories. I guess to each their own, whether as an instructor or a student, do what you want with who you want that makes you happy and financially sound.

[Laura]

I think it depends on the pro and his or her reputation. In my experience, competing Pros (or retired Pro competitors) tend to coach more couples than those that only ever do Pro/Am. My teacher, a currently competing pro, has a mix of adult couples, kid couples, and Pro/Am students. He also teaches a couple of group classes each week.

[Easy]

At competitions you'll see all different types of pros in the pro/am sector. The sleezy kind that ogle over expensive things in front of their students saying how much they'd like it...hint hint, the ones that actually dress their students, do their hair, make-up etc., the kind who could care less about their students, and the real professionals. They all charge differently...some outrageous and some more fair. You really have to shop around. It can be costly anywhere you go, but in the end, the quality and attention are what makes the difference. Meaning, if you're getting the return for what you're paying, then it's not expensive...it just costs a lot.

All of you have jobs. If you were expected to go on a business trip, would you really expect to pay for the expenses of the trip with your own money? No...it's your job! I know I'd never expect my instructors to go to a competition, miss their teaching income, and pay for the work they would do at the competition with their own money. They'd never survive. Because dancing is fun and caring instructors do have a great time and really look forward to competiting with their students, some people seem to forget that they are still working. It's not all business, but it is still business.

It'll always cost a lot when you have to pay double expenses for hotel, travel, packages, etc. This is the cost of doing pro/am. When an instructor has more students competing, the costs can be spread out. If an instructor is competing on a day you are not, then the cost of that day is on them, unless the both of you have come to some other kind of agreement. If an instructor was already going to be at a competition, as I read earlier....because they are already there doesn't necessarily mean they should include you in their day for free! They will have to devote time and attention to you. Why should they be expected to do this for nothing? I could see possibly some kind of discount or something, but remember, they were there already for themselves. If you want to be included in their day and activities, then you'd better be ready to pay for their time and effort.

[wooh]

At competitions you'll see all different types of pros in the pro/am sector...

I think I have the most fun at comps just people watching. I get kind of bored watching the same couples dance over and over. (One year at SRC, watching a woman do both latin and rhythm in every level and age she could, and in a rumba, i rumba and bolero she had this same move, so I guess I saw it something like 9000 times? Argh!) But the people watching, that's always something new and interesting. I love at pro-am comps, watching the pros especially. My heart just smiles when I see a really great pro taking care of their students in a professional manner, it's what dancing should be about. And then when I see the slimy ones, oh how I want to go smack some sense into the stupid women paying them money to be taken advantage of! But I guess if they're happy, that's what counts. Still want to smack the slimy pros though.


All of you have jobs...

I think everybody's work experience colors their perception of things. How their work handles things. Some places nickel and dime you so much, that you sometimes are paying for the privilege to go to work. Of course, I think bigger than that, I think it's hard for a lot of people that see dance as a hobby to recognize it as a job for the instructors.

It'll always cost a lot when you have to pay double expenses for hotel, travel, packages, etc...
Perhaps if all the pros were to just room on cots in a neighborhood high school gym it would cut the costs down?:p

[Easy]

Lol Wooh :)

[Josh]

Not trying to stir up any trouble, but I suspect they are admired and respected by mainly other pro/ams, because as an am I don't have any idea who any of them are (in order to be respected and admired by me). I expect that is because I do not watch a lot of pro/am competition. Do many amateurs?

Nice try, but I think you did anyway ;-) But seriously, aren't you stating the obvious anyway? Most accountants, truckers, CEOs, tennis players, and anyone else not involved in ballroom dancing have no idea who Mirko Gozzoli is, or even quintessential ballroom figures like Marcus and Karen Hilton, John Wood and Anne Lewis, etc, but they're revered very highly in the ballroom world.

Similarly, why should pro/ams expect amateurs to know who they are? They're in totally separate events, often on different days, or at least times of the day, and often even in totally separate competitions. On the flip side, I doubt many pro/ams know who any amateurs are. I personally know all of maybe 4 or 5 couples, and that's because they are active at my studio. I don't care about the results of amateur events, though if I see some good am dancing, I'll watch. I couldn't tell you who the top amateur couples are in the US or anywhere, nor could many pro/am dancers, nor could much of anyone else not directly involved in the am circuit.

We all have our scopes of interest, and they're often quite narrow because we are focused on what we need to focus on to do the best we can. Whether the event is a big competition in another part of the world, an amateur competition, a pro/am competition, etc., if the results aren't pretty related to our level of interest, then we likely won't give it a glance.

[Joe]

Assuming you don't compete professionally, do you care about the results of the professional events?

[fascination]

ya know, other than my personal favorites? not really...same for the AMs and the pro/Ams....

[tanya_the_dancer]

Assuming you don't compete professionally, do you care about the results of the professional events?

Just my personal favorites. I like watching pro events though. And I try to watch open pro-am events, since they are the events I am hoping to compete in one day, but I don't pay a lot of attention to the results.

[Joe]

The Q was directed to Josh, since he said he doesn't care about the amateur results.

[fascination]

sorry ;) ....I thought other POVs might also be welcome :)

[Cashmere]

Fascination, I like what you said in several posts and agree.

I'm sorry to see people put down Pro/Am. I'm not expereinced with any of this. But I know that if I couldn't do Pro/Am I could not compete. My husband won't and I would not be able to find a partner, to suit my schedule, or perhaps travel. There is not just practice/learning time, there is the travelling. I might want to travel and my partner won't (AM) and vice versa. But that is just me.

I see it as competing in that catagory and it counts for me. It is what it is, Pro/Am, I'm the Am and I know it and I'm happy. I'm a little hurt when people say it doesn't count.
Count for who? For what? It counts for me. I don't know about anyone else, but I dance for myself, for many different reasons, but all of them are for myself. I'm proud of my accomplishments. Why put down and spoil someone elses happiness/pleasure?

Why the putdowns on Pro/Am? Why can't it count for something to the person doing it? What is the difference between two Am's competing, maybe they don't count for the Pros? Why do we always have to judge and be hurtful and put others down?. Don't we dance because it makes us happy and we love it?


Easy I also agree with what you said. I had my first comp, I had no clue about anything, it was where I lived so no travel expenses. He did not charge his students for his time.

I didn't think about anything, he didn't even charge us for his entrance fee. I didn't think, I had no clue. I didn't even read all of the stuff here yet.

He did such a good job and he took such good care of me, if I needed some water he got it for me, he got me tissues, he didn't just leave me, and not just me, he was like that with the other students too, that I wanted to give him a gift. He didn't ask for it, he even said it wasn't necessary but I insisted.

My Pro recently gifted me a pair of new 3" heal dance shoes to get me into higher heals. I wanted to pay, he insited they are a gift.

I think in the end if you find a decent person, and you are fair you will be treated fairly. I like to treat my PRO like I would want to be treated if the situation were reversed.

I know that he enjoys what he is doing. I know when I tell him that I'm happy when I dance, that when people see pics of me dancing at the comp, they say they never saw me so happy. I know when I write out another check and say my hubby is happy to pay for my lessons because it puts me in a good mood. My cardiologist promotes ballroom dancing to his patients as good exercise, he is happy too.

Maybe because he doesn't expect he gets treated better, maybe because he is a nice person and treats people like people and not like $$$ that he is treated fairly. I know that all his students are happy. Yes, we had one little issue before my frist comp and that all got resolved. Thanks actually to many of you here, especailly Fascination.

In the end I agree, it's all a business and up to each individual to decide what works for them and that is for Pro, Am, Pro/Am and whatever else might be included in the mix.

[fascination]

thanks cashmere...I am glad you find all of that to be the case....the world of experiences is so vast...most of what anyone posts has an element of truth to it...we just...all of us...need to be careful that our posts don't imply that we possess the wealth of it, while those who disagree are simply in a fog...shrug...it's all good

[Cashmere]

thanks cashmere...I am glad you find all of that to be the case....the world of experiences is so vast...most of what anyone posts has an element of truth to it...we just...all of us...need to be careful that our posts don't imply that we possess the wealth of it, while those who disagree are simply in a fog...shrug...it's all good

Once again I agree.

[Purr]

Negative opinions about pro am abound on this forum. That's just the way it is.

[Josh]

Assuming you don't compete professionally, do you care about the results of the professional events?

With my new partner I begin in July, and yes, I care as they are people I take coaching from, and enjoy watching dance in general.

[contracheck]

I have had numerous pro and amat. champ. winners and NEVER had a gift of any kind--- nor would I want one.

The reward is always in their success .

If not expensive gifts, I've also heard that students should consider buying competition dresses for their pro-am coaches. I've heard that coaches know many ways of putting subtle pressure to the students. From coaches perspective, is this true?

[fascination]

pressure can be ignored

[contracheck]

pressure can be ignored

I wish that Life is that simple and I have your will power.

[fascination]

it is simple...just not easy....two different things...

[Larinda McRaven]

If not expensive gifts, I've also heard that students should consider buying competition dresses for their pro-am coaches. I've heard that coaches know many ways of putting subtle pressure to the students. From coaches perspective, is this true?

No, I had a student recently offer to "subsidize' a beautiful dress I was oogelling. I put a stop to the offer immediately, by saying I already had parents.

[contracheck]

No, I had a student recently offer to "subsidize' a beautiful dress I was oogelling. I put a stop to the offer immediately, by saying I already had parents.


High standard of integrity.

[fascination]

I think it is very important that folks who work hard for their money see bonuses as things they have earned...and I think that most smart pros understand when strings are attached

[Easy]

You can buy me a dress if you like contracheck. I'm a guy, but it might be nice to frolick in when nobody else is around. ;)

[chocolatchica]

You can buy me a dress if you like contracheck. I'm a guy, but it might be nice to frolick in when nobody else is around. ;)
Maybe you could let me borrow it sometime;)

[contracheck]

You can buy me a dress if you like contracheck. I'm a guy, but it might be nice to frolick in when nobody else is around. ;)

No problem, but can you show me the dress you like? I am always interested in dresses and costumes. If I have to pay for it, I think that I should like it, too. I don't think that Edyta's costume is good for a guy. Btw, can any one tell me what kind of stones are on Edyta's costume? Crystal AB?

[Cashmere]

I think it is very important that folks who work hard for their money see bonuses as things they have earned...and I think that most smart pros understand when strings are attached

I totally agree with this.

My Pro didn't ask/hint/whatever for a gift. I did it becuase I saw what was going on around me at the competition, I saw how he treated me, vs how others were treated, there were no strings attached on either side. I also read what people wrote here, about charges. He paid his own ticket into the competition. $180. Yes it would have been split between 5 of us but he paid it himself. He didn't charge for the day. He doesn't charge if I have to cancel last minute. I get a full hour not 45 min.

He never looses patience with me, he listens to me, not only did he deserve his gift/bonus, and btw Facination, I like that term better, bonus, better than gift, he earned that bonus.

When I worked in the business world, and still to this day, employes including CEO's receive bonuses for a job wel done. I buy my husband's secretary gifts through the year for her thoughtfulness, for her going above and beyond what is expected. Why should I treat my dance teacher/partner/Pro differently?

[Joe]

No problem, but can you show me the dress you like? I am always interested in dresses and costumes. If I have to pay for it, I think that I should like it, too. I don't think that Edyta's costume is good for a guy. Btw, can any one tell me what kind of stones are on Edyta's costume? Crystal AB?
I dunno...very few people have the abs required to pull off wearing any of Edyta's costumes. ;)

[contracheck]

I totally agree with this.

My Pro didn't ask/hint/whatever for a gift. I did it becuase I saw what was going on around me at the competition, I saw how he treated me, vs how others were treated, there were no strings attached on either side. I also read what people wrote here, about charges. He paid his own ticket into the competition. $180. Yes it would have been split between 5 of us but he paid it himself. He didn't charge for the day. He doesn't charge if I have to cancel last minute. I get a full hour not 45 min.

He never looses patience with me, he listens to me, not only did he deserve his gift/bonus, and btw Facination, I like that term better, bonus, better than gift, he earned that bonus.

When I worked in the business world, and still to this day, employes including CEO's receive bonuses for a job wel done. I buy my husband's secretary gifts through the year for her thoughtfulness, for her going above and beyond what is expected. Why should I treat my dance teacher/partner/Pro differently?

I beleive that to everything there are exceptions. Unlike dance coaches, CEOs always get fat bonuses in the US, and perhaps only in the US. CEOs like Angelo Mozlo (Countrywide) and Mitchel Caplan (E-Trade) nearly destroyed their respective companies but they still received fat compensations.

Regarding the coaches charges for pro-am participation, my case is very simple and easy. My coach decides our entries and present me the total cost she needs to collect from me. She knows that I am not a rich man and that I don't like micromanaging. It just doesn't look manly to me too quibble with a young lady for a few dollars. She, however, knows that if her price is too high, I'll bow out. Her charges are therefore quite reasonable.

[Easy]

A believer, I believe :)