Issues with Practising

[SwingWaltz]

Well I'm not sure if anyone has had similar issues, but this is relatively new to me. As the partnership of 10 weeks is going really good, I feel like it's to the stage that we can take dancing to a new level. We are 1 win away from elevating and potentially from competing in adult open championship level. Therefore we'd like to think that we can self evaluate instead of relying on our professional coach all the time. (we are dancing am-am by the way)

However, my partner thinks that neither of us should be in a position to evaluate the dancing of the other person. Which makes improving very hard and practice seem redundant. If we don't point out mistakes, we'll never correct them. Also, she thinks it's rude if I tell her that she's doing something wrong because I am by no means a significantly better and more knowledgeable dancer. I do realize that I do things wrong too, but instead of announcing to the world that I made a mistake, I just tell me self quietly that I'll try doing it correctly next time. What do you think I should do?


Also when we dance in open position, with single hand hold (as in american smooth, but we call new vogue) A lot of the times our arms are not level, extended to same degree, angel, speed of arm extension and extend of body extension is not equal. Making us look very unsynchronized. Do you think that it's is the man who sets the "boundary" so to speak, as the man leading the timing and shaping. I don't want to tell her what to do etc but if no one says a word, we'd be doing everything out of proportion and time from each other.

[fascination]

I don't think it's the man who sets the boundary, but if you are merely trying to be analytical I think it is very problematic to have a partner who is resistant to this sort of evaluation of your dancing...you can't leave it solely to a coach...the two of you should IMO be able to be candid with each other

[BallandChange]

I think it is very problematic to have a partner who is resistant to this sort of evaluation of your dancing...you can't leave it solely to a coach...the two of you should IMO be able to be candid with each other

I agree with Fascination. My coaches have always encouraged my partner and I to be able to recognize when things are not right and to use the knowledge in which we have been imparted by them to work at correcting the issue. I really don’t know the value of your practice if you are not having discussions about your dance as a couple. Now, I must say that I have found that if I begin the discussion with “WE” versus “You” then it tends to be a productive discussion. An example, I might say something like “It seems that when we do the turning lock that it is not comfortable”. I begin this discussion by initiating it without blame, unless it is towards me. I have found that when you initiate the discussion in this manner it allows each to begin a positive discussing what in may seem uncomfortable from each of your perspectives (what you might be feeling or expecting when doing the element without pointing fingers). After that you can begin a discussion about what each of you are doing during that element and finally how to make it better. If you cannot come to an agreement or cannot resolve the issue then you need to put the discussion to the side for the moment and bring these concerns to the attention of your coach. You should also discuss with your coach the things that you and your partner worked on during your practices since it is good to get the professionals opinion on you went about correcting the concerns. I think you will find that this approach will also help you and your partner grow as dancers since it will teach you both how to develop yourselves and give you a better understanding of your dance. Ballroom dancing is about partnering and that cannot occur without good positive honest discussion.

[fascination]

even in my relationship with pro I am encouraged to evaluate what I think is happening, what I am feeling from him, how we might adjust etc....and I have learned to take his evaluations as what they are not a critique but toward the common goal of good dancing...no matter what one dances, IMO, that is essential

[skwiggy]

The best feedback you can get is from your partner. He/she knows your dancing better than anyone. If you can't communicate about what each of you is feeling and seeing in each other, then you are missing out on a huge opportunity to improve.

If your partner doesn't recognize the value of that, I would consider that to be a problem.

Although it is common for partners to correct each other in a way that is not constructive. This can be in the form of blaming each other, or just phrasing things in a way that is rude or hurtful. Obviously I don't know anything about your particular situation, but is it possible that your partner is put off by the way that you are phrasing things, or the type of feedback you are offering? Every comment you make should be constructive, and without assigning blame. Or if you see a problem and don't have a suggestion or solution, then the comment should be opening a discussion to finding the answer together.

It's also important to stick to your interest, instead of your position. Your interest is improving the dancing of the partnership. Your position may be that your partner is doing something wrong. In exploring the issue, always keep your mind open to the possibility that the error might be on your end, even if it feels otherwise. As you delve into issue, you might be surprised what you find. But stick to the idea that the goal is to improve the partnership, not simply to correct your partner. Then the two of you will always be working together towards a common goal instead of fighting against each other about who is right, who is wrong, and who has the knowledge and right to correct whom.

I recommend examining what you are saying and how you are saying it. And if the problem really is that your partner will not accept any input from you, then I would open a discussion about it. Perhaps you two can spell out your points of view, and find a way to compromise. Or perhaps you will find that your views are too different, and there is no compromise. But at least you'll be communicating about it.

[Chris Stratton]

Assume you are right, but that the information will be more effective coming from a respected outside party.

At this stage of a partnership, probably the best thing to do is take a ton of lessons with coaches you are willing to (provisionally, for the moment) trust completely, and just dance without thinking. Just do it for a while and see what happens.

Competitions are rarely won by the couple that is the most correct, instead they are won by the couple that fully dances what they are capable of. Improving the correctness of you dancing will help slowly, but the big differences come from making the most of what you have at the moment.

[Ithink]

I think the way critiques are stated is KEY. I agree with the "we" idea - that is what I always try to do when making comments about what I'm feeling from my partner. And it's not a patronizing kind of "we" but one that's is totally accurate. Anything your partner is doing *can* be a product of what you are doing so telling her what she is doing incorrectly is assuming that everything you are doing is correct. That's a pretty big assumption to make and she may be responding to that assumption with somewhat justified hurt feelings that you are being "rude". If you are putting your comments as "you are doing something wrong" and you are NOT the more knowledgeable dancer (and by that I don't mean her more knowledgeable partner, I mean a coach), then you really are being rude.

If you say something like: "I feel something that you are doing and it's probably me who is causing it so let's try to figure out what it is both of us are doing and see if we can fix it", I seriously doubt she'll think you're being rude. So try that.

The best thing about my 8.5-year-old partnership has been that we are always able to say what we're feeling from each other and try to collaboratively fix it ourselves in practice. This has allowed us to be a great partnership that improves. When we are not able to fix it ourselves, we take it to a coach and that leads to further improvement. Communication in a partnership is the end all and be all, period. If you cannot do it, there really is no point in maintaining it beyond a point where either of you is able to find another partner with whom good communication is possible.

[samina]

Competitions are rarely won by the couple that is the most correct, instead they are won by the couple that fully dances what they are capable of.

well-put... something to remember always... go for it and dance...

[Lorelei]

I think the way critiques are stated is KEY. I agree with the "we" idea - that is what I always try to do when making comments about what I'm feeling from my partner. And it's not a patronizing kind of "we" but one that's is totally accurate. Anything your partner is doing *can* be a product of what you are doing so telling her what she is doing incorrectly is assuming that everything you are doing is correct. That's a pretty big assumption to make and she may be responding to that assumption with somewhat justified hurt feelings that you are being "rude". If you are putting your comments as "you are doing something wrong" and you are NOT the more knowledgeable dancer (and by that I don't mean her more knowledgeable partner, I mean a coach), then you really are being rude.

If you say something like: "I feel something that you are doing and it's probably me who is causing it so let's try to figure out what it is both of us are doing and see if we can fix it", I seriously doubt she'll think you're being rude. So try that.

The best thing about my 8.5-year-old partnership has been that we are always able to say what we're feeling from each other and try to collaboratively fix it ourselves in practice. This has allowed us to be a great partnership that improves. When we are not able to fix it ourselves, we take it to a coach and that leads to further improvement. Communication in a partnership is the end all and be all, period. If you cannot do it, there really is no point in maintaining it beyond a point where either of you is able to find another partner with whom good communication is possible.

I agree.

SwingWaltz, have you tried positive reinforcement? Like, "that turn felt good (light, sharp, nice shape, etc.), let's try to repeat that" or I like the shape that you are doing in this spanish drag."

[skwiggy]

I agree.

SwingWaltz, have you tried positive reinforcement? Like, "that turn felt good (light, sharp, nice shape, etc.), let's try to repeat that" or I like the shape that you are doing in this spanish drag."

Those kinds of statements serve as more than just positive reinforcement. They are an important part of the communication that serves mutual improvement. If you do something well, how will you know that you did it well and should try to repeat it, if you don't get that kind of feedback?

[Lorelei]

Those kinds of statements serve as more than just positive reinforcement. They are an important part of the communication that serves mutual improvement. If you do something well, how will you know that you did it well and should try to repeat it, if you don't get that kind of feedback?

Ditto.

And besides, if saying that something felt/looked good is not objectionable (provided that it is communicated), saying that something did not feel as good as usual, or does not feel quite comfortable yet and has room for improvment, is likely to be accepted than considered rude...

[cantskiforlife]

Communication is a must in a partnership. If you cannot discuss how either one of you are feeling, this is a major problem. I have ended many partnerships simply because the woman was not willing to/ unable to communicate with me.

A few notes of advice:

Since I am under the impression that you guys are at a similar level, comments such as, this feels wrong, can you try this, that doesn't work, etc... won't help. She may think that you are trying to be the boss and may also get the impression that you think you are better than she is.

You could try to work around this by:

1) Find out how she wishes to communicate in the relationship. Ask her preferred style of communication is.

2) When you feel something is not working, stop and say, "something doesn't feel right, can you help me figure out where we are loosing eachother?"

This will give her the chance to open up to you before she hears your comments. (She will feel less attacked).

[Rugby]

Sometimes no matter how you try and say it, it never comes across the way you intend it. Video your practice then go back and look at it together. Remember the spots where you had problems and check it out on the video so that each of you see what you are doing. What you think you are doing and what you really are doing is often not the same. It may be better that your partner sees herself and realizes how your and her arms don't match and so forth. You telling her may be seen as criticism.
One thing you may find is that its a 50/50. You may be surprised how many problems you think are her's actually stems from you and vice versa.
Remember to look at the things you are doing well along with the things you are doing wrong. The best thing is to video tape doing some moves, watch it, then go back and try it again and see if it improved or needs another tactic or tweaking to attain it.
Video cameras allow you to match how your body will feel, or where you need to put it to achieve a certain look.

[WaltzElf]

Ok. I’ve had some very different partnerships, so here’s my perspective.

My last partner, though I was (am) deeply in love with her, was very criticial of my dancing, in the sense that she would instantly point out what I was doing wrong, and our practices would consist of “you need to this” “Ok, you’re not doing this,” “Remember what our teacher said about this?” and so on.

She is a blunt person by nature, and I knew it was just stemming from a desire for us to improve and dance better, and when we weren’t practicing we were very close, right up till the day she left.


My current partner doesn’t criticise. She concentrates on her dancing, and if I feel something’s not right, I’ll ask her if she needs something else from me, and if so, what. If it is me, she’ll say what she needs. Otherwise, we just dance together.



Now, I’m capable of taking criticism, God knows I’m critical enough of myself. But I can promise you, the latter partnership has been much a more productive and healthy working relationship. I feel better about my dancing with the new girl, I’m happier with my own dancing since I’m not getting a constant stream of “you’re not doing it right,” and my dancing is improving much more quickly.



In short, I’m not a fan of criticising or “evaluating” what your partner is doing.









Also, please don’t forget that the man’s job in ballroom dancing is to make the lady feel like she’s on top of the world. Everything we should be doing is to make her feel good, not the other way around.

Men’s steps, holds etc etc work that, if you’re lady is looking and feeling good, you’re going to look good yourself.




That ususally means it's our fault. Simply because, even if the lady makes a mistake, we should be able to keep her comfortable.

[fascination]

well waltzelf...I respect your differing view, but I do disagree...A) there is a big difference between being blunt and criticizing and being reflective and collaborative...just b/c you don't want her opinion unless you ask for it doesn't mean you aren't missing something valuable for not having it.. and B)I am not even sure I totally agree with your characterization of what the man's job is but, as in other arenas, when a woman senses that a man doesn't want input, she can easily settle and fake it, doesn't mean she's unhappy mind you, just means that it probably isn't going to get as good as it could...for either of them

[samina]

Ok.

Men’s steps, holds etc etc work that, if you’re lady is looking and feeling good, you’re going to look good yourself.

But the lady has her responsibility in the pair...a good lady will make the man look good. When they both do their part, there is so much harmony and comfort.

True to life..:)

[Dancebug]

I would love to have a partner like WaltzElf! I do not know what's got into my partner's head. I cannot do two figures in a row without him criticising me. Arrrrr.....

[fascination]

did he say he doesn't criticize her? or just that she doesn't criticize him?.....and again, I wonder why we can't make the distinction here between evaluating and criticizing

[fascination]

Ok. I’ve had some very different partnerships, so here’s my perspective.

My last partner, though I was (am) deeply in love with her, was very criticial of my dancing, in the sense that she would instantly point out what I was doing wrong, and our practices would consist of “you need to this” “Ok, you’re not doing this,” “Remember what our teacher said about this?” and so on.

She is a blunt person by nature, and I knew it was just stemming from a desire for us to improve and dance better, and when we weren’t practicing we were very close, right up till the day she left.

My current partner doesn’t criticise. She concentrates on her dancing, and if I feel something’s not right, I’ll ask her if she needs something else from me, and if so, what. If it is me, she’ll say what she needs. Otherwise, we just dance together.

Now, I’m capable of taking criticism, God knows I’m critical enough of myself. But I can promise you, the latter partnership has been much a more productive and healthy working relationship. I feel better about my dancing with the new girl, I’m happier with my own dancing since I’m not getting a constant stream of “you’re not doing it right,” and my dancing is improving much more quickly.

I hope this doesn't sound like I am picking on you waltzelf, but I wonder if the degree of emotional investment in lady #1 influenced how you percieved the feedback...I think often when we are emotionally invested in someone we have a very difficult time recieving correction from them whether blunt or subtle, b/c we tend to have some difficulty setting our feelings aside...I would wonder if lady #2 could say something and you wouldn't find it far less difficult to take...just a question

[Dancebug]

What I like about WaltzElf's approach is in the following quote.


Also, please don’t forget that the man’s job in ballroom dancing is to make the lady feel like she’s on top of the world. Everything we should be doing is to make her feel good, not the other way around.

Men’s steps, holds etc etc work that, if you’re lady is looking and feeling good, you’re going to look good yourself.




That ususally means it's our fault. Simply because, even if the lady makes a mistake, we should be able to keep her comfortable.
If both partners share this attitute, it is hard to imagine a partnership problem.

[samina]

it's also true that some personality types are just generally emotionally sensitive to critique, even gentle feedback.

i've also experienced how a conflict in values can cause difficulty when practicing. with my last SO, we were studying latin together, and the ONLY time in a year and a half of being together that we really argued was our first and second time practicing together. we had different values concerning our dancing, different practice goals & methods, different learning approaches... Eventually, I said we just weren't compatible partners for studying & practicing latin. And that happens...

[fascination]

well I guess the two of you know what to do if you are both available at the same time ;)...and it's cool how some folks are just in sync in the way they think...I find that I would not care for that perspective overly much...shrug...thank goodness we are all different

[biggestbox]

Ok guys, my advice is to stop talking. It has taken a long time for me to come to this conclusion. Women are very good at molding to their partners. i mean there is definitely a skill to being a good lady, and the lady can help her man out tremendously. The guys has to be the best he can be. Sometimes in standard, you can only see the quality (of lack of quality) of the lady when the man is absolutely amazing. As guys we have to work with ourselves first and worry about her second.

[fascination]

sure...but one way to work on yourself is to actually listen to what others are saying...

[Dancebug]

I agree with you, biggestbox. Sometimes the best thing to do is just not saying anything. We have a figure where I often bobble at the end of it. My partner often complained. After a while he stopped saying anything mainly because it did not make it any better. Last week we had a lesson with our female coach (we work with a man and wife team, and we rotate them). My partner led our coach to this same figure, and she bobbled. She did not say anything about it because she was preoccupied with something else she felt we needed to fix. But my partner immediately began to work on his own part of this figure. He realized that it was actually something he was doing wrong that caused me to bobble. In this case I could have said something negative about what he was doing when he comlained. But I am glad that I did not, because he eventaully figured out himself.

[BlueBambue]

Sure the person making a mistake may come to realize what they are doing after a bit, but I would think it would be more effective to tell them when you realize what they are doing. That way both partners become better faster.

[skwiggy]

Yes, certainly more efficient to tell them. And it doesn't have to be negative. Because how did you know for sure that the bobble was caused by him until it happened to your coach? And how would you ever find out where the problem was coming from until you explored it further? What's wrong with saying -- "I seem to be bobbling there. Maybe it's because of X, or maybe it's because of Y. Can we try these things to see if it helps? Do you have any ideas on how to fix it?"

That's not negative, or critical. It's collaborative and constructive, and will work much faster than waiting for him to maybe eventually figure it out on his own. ;)

[Dancebug]

Of course I would tell my partner if I know how he can fix the problem, but most of time I do not know well enough about man's part to tell how to fix the problem. If the problem is something simple as him pulling me in a wrong way, then I do tell him. But most of our problems are not that simple.

[fascination]

but here's the thing...maybe you can puzzle it out together...

ie...my right knee is really hurting on this oversway...hmmm maybe if you turn your foot more...hmmm that would be easier if I could get you to try a bit more contra ...etc...trial and error...problem solving together as opposed to blaming

[skwiggy]

but here's the thing...maybe you can puzzle it out together...

ie...my right knee is really hurting on this oversway...hmmm maybe if you turn your foot more...hmmm that would be easier if I could get you to try a bit more contra ...etc...trial and error...problem solving together as opposed to blaming

:cheers:

[fascination]

;) thanks (absolutely no one breathes a word to my pro that I am on the same page with him on this)

[samina]

Am so with fasc & skwigs on this...I find that sort of collaboration deeply pleasurable.

[delamusica]

Yes.

Also, if I'm doing something to make a figure harder for my partner, I would hope he would tell me about it! And I would like to dance with someone who would return the favor. No sense in practicing if you're just going to let mistakes get repeated. Also, just continuing to feel like your partner isn't fixing something that bothers you will just lead to resentment somewhere down the line.

[Joe]

In this case I could have said something negative about what he was doing when he comlained.
You didn't need to say anything negative, but if you knew what the problem was why wouldn't you say something, period? You basically just wasted a bunch of time waiting for him to "get it" himself.

[Dancebug]

I feel I was misunderstood. Actually we are very communicative, often overly communicative. (See my first post on this thread.) I said sometimes it is helpful not saying anything. Actually because we can be too communicative with each other, adopting WaltzElf's and biggestbox's line of thinking can be helpful for us.

[fascination]

you have a point there...some days are just shuddupandance days

[samina]

you have a point there...some days are just shuddupandance days

yep. even with my pro i'll often say, shhh, no talk... dance :)

[WaltzElf]

well waltzelf...I respect your differing view, but I do disagree...A) there is a big difference between being blunt and criticizing and being reflective and collaborative...just b/c you don't want her opinion unless you ask for it doesn't mean you aren't missing something valuable for not having it.. and B)I am not even sure I totally agree with your characterization of what the man's job is but, as in other arenas, when a woman senses that a man doesn't want input, she can easily settle and fake it, doesn't mean she's unhappy mind you, just means that it probably isn't going to get as good as it could...for either of them

Yes, there is a difference between being blunt and reflective. The difference, in my experience (as someone who's had partners on, literally, both sides of the fence) is that reflection comes when your partner initiates the dialogue. Criticism comes when you do.

It's a simple shift in attitude. I prefer to initiate a dialogue with "ok, what do you need from me for this to feel better." This more productive, it's more enjoyable, and it's criticism free. "You need to do this" is, however good the intentions, direct. Delivery can make it something less than rude, but it will always be direct.

On the other hand I've seen couples function perfectly well where one partner will literally yell at her partner. It's a matter of understanding your partner and the best way to be productive with them. The ultimate point of dancing is to improve, and if your partner is percieving you as being critical, then you're not going to improve as quickly, and a rethink of practice strategy is needed.


I guess my overall point is that there are different ways to train, and improve, and have productive practice sessions. Some partners prefer to work on themselves, themselves, which is what the OP's partner sounds like. In that case, she's like me, and a better practice strategy would be to let her figure out for herself why something doesn't feel right.


I hope this doesn't sound like I am picking on you waltzelf, but I wonder if the degree of emotional investment in lady #1 influenced how you percieved the feedback...I think often when we are emotionally invested in someone we have a very difficult time recieving correction from them whether blunt or subtle, b/c we tend to have some difficulty setting our feelings aside...I would wonder if lady #2 could say something and you wouldn't find it far less difficult to take...just a question

When we have moments of frustration and my new partner says something blunt, then no, I dont' handle it well.

Of course the stakes were higher with my ex partner because of the romantic interest, but in all areas (not just dancing), I'm an independent learner. I'm critical of myself, and in team environments I'm not proud, I'm quite capable of asking what they need from me if I can't sort it out for myself, but yes, actual criticism from team mates is not team behaviour, as far as I'm concerned.

I think my new partner understands this better than the last - perhaps because she herself is quite a sensitive and stubborn person when it comes to her dancing, so there's a better natural understanding about effective practice techniques that took a lot of work in the last partnership to understand.

did he say he doesn't criticize her? or just that she doesn't criticize him?.....and again, I wonder why we can't make the distinction here between evaluating and criticizing

There's no need to criticise or evaulate my partner's performance. That's why we hve teachers. I'm there to support and trust in my partner and the progress we're making. When something is going wrong with our dancing, we go "ok, that's crap, what do we need to do to fix it," and we work from there. In a team environment where, intentionally or otherwise, there's no condensation.

For the record, I find "evaulation" just as condescending as "criticism". It's a negative attitude where one parter, temporarily or otherwise, is putting themselves as the superior team member. Some people prefer to work with their dance partners on an equal level ;-) Teachers evaulate, and I'm not paying my partner to dance with me.

[Dancebug]

Reading WaltzElf's post makes me realize why I do not like my partner's current approach. I am super-critical of my own dance already. I do not need someone (except our coaches) to tell me each time when I do not do things right. It just hurts my feelings.

[fascination]

hmmm...well, I appreciate your responses I just can't quite figure out how two people evaluating what it feels like for both of them and what it feels like the other person is doing would be at all condescending...I mean neither person is claiming to be speaking from on high as one who pssesses the objective truth but rather, both are merely analyzing and sharing in order to come to a solution....regardless of the nature of the partnership, that seems like wisdom, not condescension...BUT, as you have said, you have found someone who shares your perspective on how things should work and ultimately that is all that really matters

[skwiggy]

From my perspective it is helpful for me to have my partner evaluate whether or not I have adopted what the coach told me to do. Sometimes it is easier for your partner to feel what you're doing than for you to feel it yourself. So if he was there when my coach told me to do something, it helps me to get feedback on whether or not I am accomplishing that, getting closer, or if things start to revert after some period of time. Especially in this context, it's just a matter of maximizing the information that we got from the coach.

[dbk]

Coming from the perspective of someone who can't (well, can and doesn't want to) afford the money and time that a ton of lessons with a pro cost, I find partner evaluation absolutely necessary. And so does my entire team. I certainly point out the problems my partners have, and they do the same to me. It improves our dancing, and it's been helping a LOT lately.

Heck, my boyfriend pointed himself into gold in several styles on five or six privates a year and ~three hours of practice a week. He and his partner are the absolute model of communication within a partnership -- they do a step for an hour, each time evaluating and discussing how it felt, what might be going wrong, etc. A lot of times, they solve it between themselves; when they can't solve it, no matter how long they try, they eventually take a lesson to get it corrected.

When a partner evaluates your dancing s/he is not trying to insult you, any more than a professional teacher is; the only difference is that a professional has more experience. Both are still simply evaluating your (and their) dancing and trying, within their capabilities, to improve it. It's in no way an exertion of power. Whoever made that comment that evaluation means one partner temporarily becomes "superior" to the other really sounds like they're in competition with their partner, instead of working together with them.

Like a lot of people have already said, I think people are confusing "evaluation" with "attack" or "criticism", and are assuming that "evaluation" means "badgering your partner until s/he gets it right". That's just not the case. Evaluation means being honest in your partnership, telling your partner what you feel when dancing, pointing out problems within the partnership so they can be fixed.

God, I can only imagine using this other "shut up and let him/her get it" attitude in sex, since everyone likes to make the "vertical expression of a horizontal desire" joke. Would you want a sex partner to simply "shut up and wait for you to get it yourself" when something was uncomfortable or not working right for him/her in sex? Would you want to wait until you have sex with other people or until you see a sex therapist for him/her to notice the problem and fix it? Probably not. So you shouldn't take that attitude in dancing either, especially given that dancing is a lot less personal than sex, and you're not going out on an competition floor to show off your technique for the judges.

Being in a partnership where my partner expected me to stay silent about partnership problems would make me give up on dancing. It would make me zone out during practice, since my input isn't needed. It would make me feel like my partner isn't interested in improving. Our connection would suffer. I would start being passive-aggressive. And I would feel absolutely lost about how well *I* was dancing, since my partners are my main source of feedback on the connection.

I mean, really. If you don't want feedback and evaluation from your partner, just practice alone, since that's essentially what you're doing.

[Chris Stratton]

I mean, really. If you don't want feedback and evaluation from your partner, just practice alone, since that's essentially what you're doing.

Actually, no it's not the same thing at all. Practicing dancing with a partner requires a partner, but it doesn't require that you communicate with each other at all, outside of the communication in the dancing itself.

Practice and study are two different things.

In study, you try to understand. Practice is mostly about doing.

There are points in a dance career where it becomes necessary to simply do, and not to think, because ultimately you cannot fully do both at the same time.

Yes, there can be a role for studying something together with your partner without your coach involved, if you are sufficiently on the same page to do so - but that's not the same type of work as practicing it.

[star_gazer]

Coming from the perspective of someone who can't (well, can and doesn't want to) afford the money and time that a ton of lessons with a pro cost, I find partner evaluation absolutely necessary. And so does my entire team. I certainly point out the problems my partners have, and they do the same to me. It improves our dancing, and it's been helping a LOT lately.
...
I mean, really. If you don't want feedback and evaluation from your partner, just practice alone, since that's essentially what you're doing.
Some dancers are just not very good at communicating. Sometimes it works better to just shut-up and dance. Sometimes...not always.

[WaltzElf]

God, I can only imagine using this other "shut up and let him/her get it" attitude in sex, since everyone likes to make the "vertical expression of a horizontal desire" joke. Would you want a sex partner to simply "shut up and wait for you to get it yourself" when something was uncomfortable or not working right for him/her in sex? Would you want to wait until you have sex with other people or until you see a sex therapist for him/her to notice the problem and fix it? Probably not. So you shouldn't take that attitude in dancing either, especially given that dancing is a lot less personal than sex, and you're not going out on an competition floor to show off your technique for the judges.

This is pretty much where you lost all credibility. How utterly ridiculous.

Beyond the silly comparison between dancing and sex, what you’ve done here is taken what I and others said and blew it way out of proportion. There’s a huge difference between being silent during practice, and what we do. I guess you missed the part where I said that for quite a few of us (bolded for emphasis, just so you don’t miss this one), a healthier partnership is where we initiate our own evaluation, and the partner is there to help us figure out how to make them feel and look better on the dance floor.

I do hope the rest of the people in the thread realise that I was never advocating silent “by-the-numbers” practicing.

Being in a partnership where my partner expected me to stay silent about partnership problems would make me give up on dancing. It would make me zone out during practice, since my input isn't needed. It would make me feel like my partner isn't interested in improving. Our connection would suffer. I would start being passive-aggressive. And I would feel absolutely lost about how well *I* was dancing, since my partners are my main source of feedback on the connection.

Well, again, aside from the bit where you missed my entire point (silent about partnership problems? Dunno where I said that), I’d never want to dance with someone as aggressive as you either.

Lucky we’re not having a tryout, eh.

[soshedances]

I'm brand-new here, but I thought I'd throw my 2 cents in...;)

From my experience in ballroom (it's only been 9 months really, but I'm on my second amateur partner) it's best if both partners express not only what could be improved, but also what doesn't feel right/should be evaluated and correct it, if necessary. In my current partnership, I'm generally the one giving feedback, on both things that worked and things I think didn't work, but in my previous partnership he gave the feedback and I listened.

I've found that neither way is the most effective...both partners have to speak up while you're dancing. What generally works for me is avoiding the words "I" and "you" at all costs, no matter how nicely you try to say it, it just never works. Granted, some tension still can occur, but when this happens, we leave the figure alone and go back to it later, if it still doesn't work, then we know to ask someone who knows more than we do! :D

[fascination]

This is pretty much where you lost all credibility. How utterly ridiculous.

Beyond the silly comparison between dancing and sex, what you’ve done here is taken what I and others said and blew it way out of proportion. There’s a huge difference between being silent during practice, and what we do. I guess you missed the part where I said that for quite a few of us (bolded for emphasis, just so you don’t miss this one), a healthier partnership is where we initiate our own evaluation, and the partner is there to help us figure out how to make them feel and look better on the dance floor.

I do hope the rest of the people in the thread realise that I was never advocating silent “by-the-numbers” practicing.



Well, again, aside from the bit where you missed my entire point (silent about partnership problems? Dunno where I said that), I’d never want to dance with someone as aggressive as you either.

Lucky we’re not having a tryout, eh.um...let's tone it back down to respectful please...thanks

[WaltzElf]

um...let's tone it back down to respectful please...thanks


I don't consider snide comments like this:

"I mean, really. If you don't want feedback and evaluation from your partner, just practice alone, since that's essentially what you're doing"

overly respectful either, for the record.

[fascination]

that's fine... point made...fair enough...moving right along

[WaltzElf]

that's fine... point made...fair enough...moving right along


Fair enough. I shall do as the green lady asks :D

[latingal]

And to be fair, dbk - please remember this is a PG-13 board (as stated in our guidelines), analogies other than sexual relationships would be appreciated. Thanks!

[SwingWaltz]

Thanks for all your inputs guys. But this is bloody unbelievable.
I told my partner that if she identifies something I'm doing wrong, she's encouraged to tell me and we can work something out. So today we had a new step, and when we practice later on, she's telling me that I was doing it wrong (mind you that the teacher said nothing about it in lesson), kept saying I wasn't doing enough. But I replied that I honestly don't think what she said was right and she was over doing it. She sort of dragged me into the mirror and told me off to look at it myself in the mirror. Now she's pissed off at me cause I told her to point out my mistakes but when she does, I'm not agreeing with her.

I mean I did say for her to point our my mistake, but what if I don't think I was doing anything wrong. We are at the same level, no one could guarantee that she's always right. So am I allowed to even express my own opinion about my own dancing even though she said it was wrong?

[QPO]

If you asked her to point them out (your mistakes) then you have to take it for what it is, even if you think you did it right. She was telling you because she wants you to do your best, and you would tell her for the same reason, So if you are both doing it for the right reason, then it is the delivery. Some like the direct approach and others like it to be more diplomatic.Work out the approach that is best for your partner. Remember you both love dancing and be gentle to save hurt feelings.:friend:


I mean I did say for her to point our my mistake, but what if I don't think I was doing anything wrong. We are at the same level, no one could guarantee that she's always right. So am I allowed to even express my own opinion about my own dancing even though she said it was wrong?[/quote]

[Peaches]

If you're just going to override her whenever she points out something that you don't notice, why should she bother? I'd be ticked, too. You're not going to notice and feel what she does, and just because it wasn't caught in a lesson doesn't mean it's not happening now (or wasn't happening at the time). She's feeling SOMETHING, obviously, and it certainly doesn't seem overly productive if you respond by telling her she's incorrect and overreacting.

[fascination]

Thanks for all your inputs guys. But this is bloody unbelievable.
I told my partner that if she identifies something I'm doing wrong, she's encouraged to tell me and we can work something out. So today we had a new step, and when we practice later on, she's telling me that I was doing it wrong (mind you that the teacher said nothing about it in lesson), kept saying I wasn't doing enough. But I replied that I honestly don't think what she said was right and she was over doing it. She sort of dragged me into the mirror and told me off to look at it myself in the mirror. Now she's pissed off at me cause I told her to point out my mistakes but when she does, I'm not agreeing with her.

I mean I did say for her to point our my mistake, but what if I don't think I was doing anything wrong. We are at the same level, no one could guarantee that she's always right. So am I allowed to even express my own opinion about my own dancing even though she said it was wrong?yes you are...and frankly she is simply being unfair to be po-ed that you disagree...NOW is a good time to leave that alone til your coach sees it...but every exchange of candor isn't going to end in agreement but it shouldn't have to mean that it devolves into a spat...look its a new partnership...these things take time and lots of interpersonal discomfort and mistrials before the two of you (even if you are both mature people) learn how best to navigate one another....it's like the dancing, won't happen over night

[SwingWaltz]

If you asked her to point them out (your mistakes) then you have to take it for what it is, even if you think you did it right.

Well I think the idea of one of us pointing out a mistake, whether done by the other person or just not working together is to evaluate the issue together, not simply me doing what ever is told by my partner. Because I don't believe that one of us is a better dancer than the other. We can only point out what doesn't feel right and evaluate together.

If you're just going to override her whenever she points out something that you don't notice, why should she bother?

Not when ever she points something out. 90% of the time I do change to the suggestion. Just to try if things do work better if done differently. But sometimes clearly I was told 10 mins ago in the lesson to do something completely different, I hold my ground, until our teacher evaluate it next time.

She's feeling SOMETHING, obviously, and it certainly doesn't seem overly productive if you respond by telling her she's incorrect and overreacting.

A lot of the times we dance with single hand hold, my shape does not affect her shape. Obviously she can't feel anything. She's just trying to tell me to do this and do that. Not saying that she is incorrect, but in a way, what is correct for the female may not be so correct for the male.

[skwiggy]

Not when ever she points something out. 90% of the time I do change to the suggestion. Just to try if things do work better if done differently. But sometimes clearly I was told 10 mins ago in the lesson to do something completely different, I hold my ground, until our teacher evaluate it next time.


Instead of holding your ground, why don't you just try it her way a few times? Even if you point out that you disagree and why, you can still give her the benefit of the doubt by being open to her ideas, even if you don't agree with them. This will also encourage her to keep contributing ideas in the future. Why don't you point out that you don't agree, but that you'll try her way a few times to see what happens, and then maybe she can try your way a few times too. Then the two of you can discuss the differences. Maybe one of you will be swayed. Maybe not. And if not, then instead of holding your ground until the next time you see the teacher, perhaps it would be best to table it and agree to disagree until you see the teacher. Maybe even write it down, and keep a list of issues to address on the next lesson that you weren't able to agree on. I'm sure there are 100 other things you can spend your time working on that you do agree on. That would probably be a more productive use of the time until the next lesson.

My 2 cents, for what it's worth.

[Dancebug]

When it comes to dance partenrship, holding one's ground is never a good idea, even if one's partner's suggestion is everything contradictory to what one was just taught by one's coach. I fully understand it is easily said than done. It is still something we constantly struggle... being open-minded.

[SwingWaltz]

It is still something we constantly struggle... being open-minded.

Does that translate into "Do something to make your partner happy, even though it may not make yourself happy"?

[Dancebug]

Does that translate into "Do something to make your partner happy, even though it may not make yourself happy"?
Think this way. If your partner is happy, you will be happy. If both of you are happy, your practice will be productive and your dance will improve quicker.

[skwiggy]

I read it to mean something like -- trust and respect your partner and the value he/she brings to the partnership, even when you don't agree.

[WaltzElf]

Does that translate into "Do something to make your partner happy, even though it may not make yourself happy"?


Generally speaking that’s what I think is the males role in a dance partnership, both on and off the floor. He’s there to support her and make sure she’s feeling great. In turn this really does make the man feel good about his own dancing, and it’ll be a good partnership. From what I’ve observed, the partnerships where the man is trying to be as much the focus as the lady are the ones with no soul, and don’t generally last long.

The lady’s the picture. If she needs something from her partner for a figure to feel right, then the male should endeavor to give her that.


That said, the way she’s treating you is obviously upsetting you, possibly because it’s a new partnership and she hasn’t worked out how to relate to you as yet (and vice versa). Sit her down and explain this – don’t let it stew. Explain to her how you’d like to work during practice sessions.



Just don’t forget that it’s your job to make her look and feel good on the floor. If she isn’t you’re not doing your job right.

[dbk]

I would stop dancing with a partnership if we stopped communicating and evaluating each other. It's the only way to improve your dancing, unless you have the time and money to take a million privates a week.

Plus, dancing for me is all about my connection with my partner - so if there's something going wrong on my end of the connection, or on his, we are the only ones who can really, really tell. A partner who expected me to be quiet about something I think was going wrong in our dancing/connection? I'd drop him in a second.

Connection is about communication, both physical AND, at times, verbal.

[gclarke]

I would stop dancing with a partnership if we stopped communicating and evaluating each other.I think this subject is one that covers all aspects of life not just dance.

People are sooooo different when it comes to criticism no matter how it's wrapped up.

Personally I HATE the 'WE' have a problem approach. I know it's just my personality but it smacks of 'you have a problem but are too touchy to be told'.

Some things I absolutely hate to be criticised about. Some I welcome the input. Isn't that what you men love about us women, the challenge of working out which is which? ;)

I am lucky in that Hubby and I can argue/discuss as to who is right or wrong and treat it as a bit of fun when we find out. Having said that, we used to play bridge and I used to get quite furious at a slightly raised eye-brow when I made a mistake. So what's the difference between dancing and bridge? I think the answer is one of confidence. We're both learning at dancing but I felt I was never quite as good at bridge as he was.

We sorted the bridge thing out with a quick comment from me along the lines of 'if that eyebrow goes up once more it will be the last time I play with you', followed by an apology and the promise not to do it again.

Seriously, back to the point in question, if you can't find a way of sorting out communication, by whatever means that takes, I think the partnership is doomed from the start.

Anyway, good luck with sorting it out, all those who asked for advice.

[SwingWaltz]

Personally I HATE the 'WE' have a problem approach.I absolutely HATE the "WE" approach too. Sometimes I need to know specifically what I did wrong, or what the lady is doing wrong. So we can fix specific problems. For example, this happened one day. Our coach said we need to get lower and use our knees more, when we practice I looked at the mirror and I became clearly shorter than my partner (I'm naturally 5cm taller with shoes). Hence clearly I was getting lower and using my knees more than my partner. I suggested that SHE needed to get even lower, yet she almost cracked it and came back to me as that WE need to get lower. No argument there, so WE both got even lower. Guess what happened? She claimed that I'm even getting more lower than before, and she couldn't keep up cause she didn't know I was lowering more. Yea...she's blaming me for her not being able to keep up.

So it would be better if the lowing part only applied to ONE of the partnership instead of both, because one is already lowered to start off with.

[SwingWaltz]

What I would like to see in our communication is to point out that something didn't feel right, whether due to one part of both. Then we can work on it together or if we can't agree on something, wait for our coach.

Instead of one pointing out the other's mistake and tell him/her exactly what need to be done. I find it hard to accept the fact that one can learn his/her own part flawlessly AND ON TOP OF THAT learn the counter part flawlessly.

Working things out together is more acceptable to me than being taught by my partner. Teaching can be done by the coach thank you.

[SwingWaltz]

The lady’s the picture. If she needs something from her partner for a figure to feel right, then the male should endeavor to give her that.

Yes I have heard that before "The lady is the picture and the guy is the frame"

So now I'm saying, what if the picture itself is distorted? Should the frame change to accommodate the distorted picture? Or should the picture be corrected whilst the frame remain it's rigidity?

[gclarke]

So now I'm saying, what if the picture itself is distorted? Should the frame change to accommodate the distorted picture? Or should the picture be corrected whilst the frame remain it's rigidity?I think the point here is not so much who/what needs correcting, but working out how to get the job done without either party getting ruffled feathers. ;)

[fascination]

What I would like to see in our communication is to point out that something didn't feel right, whether due to one part of both. Then we can work on it together or if we can't agree on something, wait for our coach.

Instead of one pointing out the other's mistake and tell him/her exactly what need to be done. I find it hard to accept the fact that one can learn his/her own part flawlessly AND ON TOP OF THAT learn the counter part flawlessly.

Working things out together is more acceptable to me than being taught by my partner. Teaching can be done by the coach thank you.
sure...and I don't think anyone here is advocating that a partner take the position of knowing their part flawlessly and telling the other how to do it...that really has nothing to do with collaborating and evaluating

[fascination]

Yes I have heard that before "The lady is the picture and the guy is the frame"

So now I'm saying, what if the picture itself is distorted? Should the frame change to accommodate the distorted picture? Or should the picture be corrected whilst the frame remain it's rigidity?neither, imo...and am i the only one who hates the analogy to begin with?...I mean yes, in theory that is what it is supposed to look like, but it isn't how 2 dancers should approach effecting it, IMO....i.e. "la la la it's just my job to hang here and look pretty, while you take care of me"....while it MAY be the look, it certainly doesn't represent the task at hand, imo...

[Dancebug]

For example, this happened one day. Our coach said we need to get lower and use our knees more, when we practice I looked at the mirror and I became clearly shorter than my partner (I'm naturally 5cm taller with shoes). Hence clearly I was getting lower and using my knees more than my partner. I suggested that SHE needed to get even lower, yet she almost cracked it and came back to me as that WE need to get lower. No argument there, so WE both got even lower. Guess what happened? She claimed that I'm even getting more lower than before, and she couldn't keep up cause she didn't know I was lowering more. Yea...she's blaming me for her not being able to keep up.
I found ladies are at disadvantage in lowering because of heels. Ladies need to work harder to achieve the same amount of lowering with men.

[Ithink]

SwingWaltz: if you are lowering to the point where your partner, who is 5cm shorter than you and also lowering, looks taller, isn't it at all possible that you're lowering too much? Just because your coach told you to lower doesn't mean it then becomes a competition of who can lower more. Also, if she doesn't "know you're lowering even more", are you leading the lowering?

You want this girl to communicate what she feels and doesn't feel and when she does you claim she is wrong in what she feels? Why would I ever communicate anything to you when that's the case? She can't feel the extent of your lowering - do you automatically think it's her fault because "she can't keep up"? Keep up with what when she can't feel it?

I think communication is more about *listening* than talking. Sounds to me like you're not really listening to her now that you got her talking.

[SwingWaltz]

isn't it at all possible that you're lowering too much?
Our pros says we have another forearm length more to lower. I'm simply using it as an example where the "WE" approach may not work as well as the "YOU" approach.

Just because your coach told you to lower doesn't mean it then becomes a competition of who can lower more. Also, if she doesn't "know you're lowering even more", are you leading the lowering?
Same again, I'm lowering more to start with, then she tells me to lower more. I'm not trying to see who can lower more, I was told by my partner. Just cause she doesn't like the idea that she has to do more than what she's already doing without me doing more too. I think that idea is silly. If she has to do more, than it got to be done by her but not me on top of that.

[LatinDancer006]

What dance are you talking about here? Because in the waltz, I have the same problem with the ladies not lowering enough too. And I'm having problems driving out with most of the ladies. There are a few ladies who I don't have this problem with.

[WaltzElf]

Yes I have heard that before "The lady is the picture and the guy is the frame"

So now I'm saying, what if the picture itself is distorted? Should the frame change to accommodate the distorted picture? Or should the picture be corrected whilst the frame remain it's rigidity?


At no stage should the male be “rigid”, that’s for sure.

Reading your posts, you don’t seem like you’re even trying to respond to what your partner is doing. For example, if you’re lowering so much that your partner starts to feel uncomfortable (or worse, looks taller than you), then you’re not doing your job. You’re just focusing on yourself and expecting your lady to match you.

It’s like the old “lead follow” argument. It applies on the social floor where you may never have danced with a lady before, and therefore you do need to take a firmer hand. With a comp partner though, leading and following don’t exist. The man isn’t making the lady do anything, and the lady isn’t just responding to what the man wants. There’s a communication going on, where both partners, through the movement of the other partner’s body, is understanding what is going on, and what they need to do.

I really recommend you try just doing whatever it takes to make your partner feel happy about the dancing. Which means rather than “Is” and “Wes” you’re saying “what do you need from me for this to feel better”. Best thing that ever happened to my dancing was when I realised that I wasn’t out there to make myself look good.

neither, imo...and am i the only one who hates the analogy to begin with?...I mean yes, in theory that is what it is supposed to look like, but it isn't how 2 dancers should approach effecting it, IMO....i.e. "la la la it's just my job to hang here and look pretty, while you take care of me"....while it MAY be the look, it certainly doesn't represent the task at hand, imo...

Yeah, but it’s the frame of mind that’s important with that analogy. Nothing looks worse on the dance floor than the male forgetting the reason he’s out there. The good male dancers are the ones that take that analogy to heart.

[gclarke]

Reading your posts, you don’t seem like you’re even trying to respond to what your partner is doing. For example, if you’re lowering so much that your partner starts to feel uncomfortable (or worse, looks taller than you), then you’re not doing your job. You’re just focusing on yourself and expecting your lady to match you.WaltzElf, I would be wrong but whilst I agree with you to some extent, what I'm picking up from SwingWaltz's comments is quite a bit of resentment. I think the issue here is way more than who is lowering how much. It's how they learn to communicate. This week it's about lowering, next week it will be something else. If they can't talk about this and work out how to discuss something and agree to differ until they can ask their coach (if need be), then their path to success is going to be a very bumpy one.

And when I say agree to differ, that needs to be something they are relaxed about. I imagine harbouring feelings of frustration and resentment will affect their dancing and maybe even encourage a 'nit-picking' contest of other minor irritations.

Just my two 'pennorth. :)

[WaltzElf]

WaltzElf, I would be wrong but whilst I agree with you to some extent, what I'm picking up from SwingWaltz's comments is quite a bit of resentment. I think the issue here is way more than who is lowering how much. It's how they learn to communicate. This week it's about lowering, next week it will be something else. If they can't talk about this and work out how to discuss something and agree to differ until they can ask their coach (if need be), then their path to success is going to be a very bumpy one.

And when I say agree to differ, that needs to be something they are relaxed about. I imagine harbouring feelings of frustration and resentment will affect their dancing and maybe even encourage a 'nit-picking' contest of other minor irritations.

Just my two 'pennorth. :)


I agree there's definately a communication issue between the two of them. But just from these posts, it seems to me that SW is expecting is partner to dance to suit him, when in reality it should be the other way around.

Ultimately I firmly believe that the best dance couples are those where the man dances to suit the lady.

[SwingWaltz]

Ultimately I firmly believe that the best dance couples are those where the man dances to suit the lady.

Well what kind of partnership is that if everything I do have to suit the lady whether if she's doing her stuff right or wrong. So if she makes some mistake, do I have to intentionally make the same mistake to match her? I think we need to first learn our own steps before she telling me I need to do this or that.

For example, if you’re lowering so much that your partner starts to feel uncomfortable (or worse, looks taller than you), then you’re not doing your job.

So you are saying that if the lady isn't doing her job, the man should stop doing his job to accommodate the lady? Actually at the moment my coach is telling me to lower more, so does my partner. It's a bit hypocritical for her to tell me to lower whilst blaming me for lowering.

[SwingWaltz]

What dance are you talking about here? Because in the waltz, I have the same problem with the ladies not lowering enough too.

We are dancing the Waltz. The other day we video taped one routine of the waltz. The lady is virtually dancing on straight knees.

[SwingWaltz]

With a comp partner though, leading and following don’t exist.

No less than 10 times every practice she tells me that I can't lead. Then when I ask her to dance our routine independently, she does everything in wrong direction. Well how can I lead the correct thing when every single step she expects is wrong.

Also we were dancing New Vogue, basically I have a single hand to hold. She tells me I'm not leading. Well listen to the music, 4 bar intro, we've done it 1000 times and she said I'm not leading the star. By the time she anticipates, I lead, she feel the lead and responds, we are out of time. Instead of actively dancing her steps, she's always waiting for me to pull her around. And compares me to our coach who leads her "beautifully" on the floor, no bull he's 6ft3 and literally lifting her off her feet, of course she has no choice but "follow"

[Joe]

Ultimately I firmly believe that the best dance couples are those where the man dances to suit the lady.
And I disagree.

[fascination]

ditto

[gclarke]

No less than 10 times every practice she tells me that I can't lead.What's coming across loud and clear to me is that this is way beyond how much either of you is lowering. You need to sit down, well away from the dance floor and find out whether this sense of disatisfaction you are both clearly feeling is something that can be mended.

I use that phrase deliberately as it sounds very much as though, if not 'broken' already, it soon will be unless you can sort this out.

Although I'm in favour of blunt speaking in many cases, telling my husband he 'can't lead' would be a totally destructive comment. In no way is that helpful. I suspect that stems from resentment or frustration on her part for whatever reason.

I would just say something here which I hope you don't take offence at. Venting your feelings here is a good thing if stops you venting in anger with your partner. BUT it is easy to dwell on all the hurtful things that have been said, and look for support that it isn't you that's at fault.

This simply won't solve your problem and has the potential to make it a great deal worse.

Let me ask you a question.

Do you want to carry on partnering this girl? What is GOOD about your partnership?

Maybe you should make a list of the pros and cons and ask yourself how much you want to fix this problem.

As usual, this is just my take on this and we all have our own ways of handling problems :)

[Ithink]

Tritto:) Each partner has to dance his or her body first and foremost. If everything the man does is about the lady then he has no idea what his body is doing, does he? He only knows what he has to do to make the lady feel good. However, when he does that, HE does not look good himself and if we're talking about competitive dancing, well, that's just not good. In addition, when he constantly helps the lady feel good and does two jobs instead of one, the lady has no idea what she is doing wrong because the many just drags her around and compensates for her.

You guys have serious communications issues that cannot be solved by bickering in practice. You need to talk outside the dancefloor and figure out how it is that you communicate and what's lacking. You want her to tell you what she feels, then, when she, does, you take issue with it. That's fine - you can take issue but at least give her commentary a chance to be proven wrong rather than just dismiss it because you feel she is wrong. That's a really bad way to communicate.

[SwingWaltz]

Do you want to carry on partnering this girl? What is GOOD about your partnership?

Sounds crazy that I say this, but reality speaks. We are actually wining competitions. Since the partnership started 10 weeks ago, we have won two championships in one style and finish top 3 in two championships in the other styles (all championships contains no less than 30 couples in our category)

[gclarke]

Sounds crazy that I say this, but reality speaks. We are actually wining competitions. Since the partnership started 10 weeks ago, we have won two championships in one style and finish top 3 in two championships in the other styles (all championships contains no less than 30 couples in our category)OK let me put it another way. Are you happy to stay together in spite of these issues or do you want to fix them?

What I'm getting at is, can you live with the current situation, given the opportunity to vent here now and again, or do you feel you need to do something about it?

[JANATHOME]

Oh I hear you gclarke!
I know at the end of the lesson my husband and I are going to get in the car and go home together so nothing is more important than having a mutual respect for each other while we are in either a lesson, practice or at a social dance.

It just takes time to learn when it is the right time to to speak and when it is not.... If I find my husband is fustrated over something, that is not the time LOL!!... Often when we compete and get on the floor to practice he gets really worked up and starts telling me everything I am doing wrong... I have learned not to be offended by it because he is just working through getting his nerves in tact.... I look him directly into his eyes and firmly say "Stop it!!", and it works everytime.... It took me a long time how to figure out how to help him, and that it was not about me at all. If you can get past all this stuff though the break through in the partnerships is really rewarding.

[skwiggy]

SwingWaltz -- what exactly were you looking for when you started this thread? We have all been answering as if you were asking for help. I'm thinking that you weren't looking for advice after all, but perhaps just validation that you are "right" and your partner is "wrong". Otherwise, I don't see why you would take every constructive suggestion and tell us that WE are wrong.

Or maybe you were just looking for someone else to tell that they were wrong, because your partner wasn't enough? :rolleyes:

Honestly, if practicing with you is anything like trying to give you advice, I don't see how you and your partner accomplish anything at all. We have only heard your side of the story, and it's still nothing but argumentative and frustrating.

[gclarke]

I think we need to make allowance for age here.

At 20 I wouldn't have handled this scenario very well. When you feel 'under attack' it's pretty normal to look for support and vindication that it's not your fault.

As I got older, the speed at which I realised I was venting my frustration rather than looking for an answer improved ;)

[fascination]

partnerships are hard...they can really press your nut buttons and threaten your inner self...if you let them...the dancing is hard enough...terribly hard...but it isn't the hardest part

[samina]

Sounds crazy that I say this, but reality speaks. We are actually wining competitions. Since the partnership started 10 weeks ago, we have won two championships in one style and finish top 3 in two championships in the other styles (all championships contains no less than 30 couples in our category)

that is impressive, swingwaltz. sounds like there's something with the two of you that is very worth the effort of sorting out your current frustrations & differences.

[fascination]

yep...cuz it wouldn't be the first time two talented successful folks split for reason sthat had nothing to do with dancing

[dbk]

And to be fair, dbk - please remember this is a PG-13 board (as stated in our guidelines), analogies other than sexual relationships would be appreciated. Thanks!

Will do, sorry :)
I'll edit it if that is allowed/preferred here.

And - not to start anything again - but what I meant by my comments was
A) not focused on any one person or any one comment, and
B) based on what to MY senses seemed like a complete lack of communication. If there was another form of communication, it was either not mentioned, or it's just so completely different from the way everyone I know practices that I misunderstood it. As I'm sure I said, communication is the most important thing in a partnership to me; everything I said was in response to a lack thereof, not simply a difference.

My apologies to anyone I offended - although, again, my comments were not directed at one person.

[latingal]

no worries dbk, we understand it takes members a while to get the hang of a new environment...

[cornutt]

If I may... I've got two suggestions, one specific and one general. First, the specific: I've recently been having to rebuild a lot of things in my waltz. The reason why stems from a misunderstanding of something I was taught some time ago. I guess it must have been pretty subtle, since I've been doing it for a while and it got by several coaches. (Or maybe it didn't, and they tried to fix it, but I didn't understand what they were telling me... :???:) Anyway, my instructor and another instructor in our studio recently figured it out, and they're helping me fix it now.

Our problem was: our waltz had no flow. It jerked back and forth; it moved in tiny steps. In body contact, we were constanly moving apart and then re-contacting as if we were connected with a bungie cord. We both hated it, but we couldn't seem to fix it.

What she felt: She kept telling me that I was leaning forward at her. She said that she couldn't feel a lead that made any sense -- it just felt like a bunch of random pushing and shoving to her. She said she also felt like we were dancing much faster than the tempo (that part really confused me).

What I felt: I felt like I pushing a boulder uphill. When I initiated movement, my partner didn't move until I bodily made her move. It was exhausting. And unsatisfying, since the dance had no flow; I was constantly being balked and having to accelerate from a dead stop, over and over. If I held my right arm rigid, then on every forward step my right hand would come off of her back as much as 6 inches.

We tried all kinds of things. I was concentrating really, really hard to keep my upper body back. I was looking at the ceiling as we danced. She was trying to add back the swing and sway that I was losing. Nothing worked.

My problem had to do with lowering, but not like you might think. A long time ago I had misunderstood how the lowering and acceleration of the first step in waltz works. I was trying to move out of my standing foot and extend my moving foot foward at the same time. It's kind of hard to explain precisely, but the result was that I became top-weighted, moving through my upper body. She felt this as leaning forward -- that's one of the things I got hung up on, because I could look in the mirror and see that I wasn't leaning forward. But, my upper body was passing my feet during the step. That's the definition of top-weighted: it doesn't matter if your back is actually at a forward angle or not, if you are letting your upper body get ahead of your feet, then you aren't moving through your center and your partner will feel pressure to move through th upper body instead of the center.

Now, on to the more general thing: In aerospace, there is a saying that a crash is never the result of a single thing going wrong -- it's the result of a chain of events, a series of things all done wrong. If you can prevent just one of those events from happening, then the chain is broken and the crash doesn't occur. What we had going was an accident event chain -- a series of things that all went wrong and crashed our waltz. We had to break the chain. What I did was to work on my lowering. I have to get the moving leg out and stabilized before I try to move off of the standing foot, so that my upper body doesn't get ahead of my feet. I have to really work on lowering first without moving forward, getting that leg out and the heel edge on the floor (without over-reaching), pushing out of the standing leg, and then collecting at the end of the movement so that the forward motion translates into rise, and my upper body balances over the new standing foot.

What she had to do was work on her head position and balance. She was taking her head back far enough that it was causing her to bend at the waist. Besides making her feel off-balance, the bend at the waist restricts the backwards range of motion of the leg. (Try it; get in position and then take your head back a little farther than normal, and feel how your hip joint balks when you try to step back.) She took some lessons with another instructor and made major changes to her head position and balance, plus did some work on staying in the lead's right hand.

So last Friday, we did a bronze waltz with all of our new tricks. And it was amazing! That is, for about two minutes, until my feet and knees got too fatigued. Still, I had a lot to take away from that. I know now that we're on the right track, and I have some things to work on: foot strength, staying soft in the knees, and proper sway as a part of the momentum. The point is: sometimes you have to do something different to try to break the chain. There are times when you have to more or less ignore what your coaches are telling you, either because they aren't understanding your situation (it does happen) or because you aren't properly understanding what they are telling you. When that happens, do something, anything, different to see if you can get a different result. When you do, figure out what happened and take it from there.

[and123]

:applause:
BTDT. Totally agree, and well said.