Music: Mambo or Samba?

[Robin12]

When you hear a new fast latin song, how do you tell if it's a mambo or a samba?

[tangotime]

When you hear a new fast latin song, how do you tell if it's a mambo or a samba?


Speed has nothing to do with genre .

[Indiana_Jay]

When you hear a new fast latin song, how do you tell if it's a mambo or a samba?

For me, it depends on the beat. Typical ballroom samba music has a "one-uh-two" rhythm to it. Typical mambo music seems to lack that "dotted" rhythm.

[tj]

I agree with tt - it's like asking if you hear a fast song, how do you know if it's thrash metal or blues?

[tangotime]

For me, it depends on the beat. Typical ballroom samba music has a "one-uh-two" rhythm to it. Typical mambo music seems to lack that "dotted" rhythm.


Mambo is anything but " typical ", that,s like saying all swing is identifiable by speed because of its rhythm.

This is really an " apples and oranges " situation.
To the beginner in dance, yes, many things "sound " the same, but to pigeon hole it and define by speed is factually not always true .

Add to this-- where,s the clave and tumbao ?

[Angel HI]

Ah...at last, the real answer to the quesion?

Add to this-- where,s the clave and tumbao?

Robin's real task is to learn how to hear this. Bonne chance.

[Claire_Brummell]

Typical ballroom samba music has a "one-uh-two" rhythm to it.

Well phrased :)

[dldbm]

For me, it depends on the beat. Typical ballroom samba music has a "one-uh-two" rhythm to it. Typical mambo music seems to lack that "dotted" rhythm.

Hi Robin12, I agree with IndianaJay. Being relatively new to dance, I found it really hard as a newbie to distinguish songs, but I'm finding that listening carefully to the beat, I'm now able to figure out many. I do struggle with Mambo versus Salsa quite a bit, but Samba is now a bit easier for me to figure out. IndianaJay's comment is a great place to begin. Best of luck and great question.

[dldbm]

Mambo is anything but " typical ", that,s like saying all swing is identifiable by speed because of its rhythm.

This is really an " apples and oranges " situation.
To the beginner in dance, yes, many things "sound " the same, but to pigeon hole it and define by speed is factually not always true .

Add to this-- where,s the clave and tumbao ?

Any further quidance on clace and tumbao to answer the original poster's question? You seem to be very clear on this, so it would be great to impart your wisdom to the less clear amongst us.

[tangotime]

Any further quidance on clave and tumbao to answer the original poster's question? You seem to be very clear on this, so it would be great to impart your wisdom to the less clear amongst us.

Clave-- the " instrument ",2 wooden sticks , hand held , that are struck on specific beats during the course of the 2 bar phrase .

Defined as Son clave or Rumba Clave. They (the " clicks " ) are divided into a pattern of..3/2 and or 2/3 .
This rhythmical sequence can, and is, also played on Bass.
The Tumbao ( conga ) is also a major part of this equation .

rather that go into a longer dissertation, I suggest reading Sweavos excellent article that breaks down the musical notation ( posted on Salsa Forums )

The old method of counting this rhythm ?-- " Shave, hair cut-- pause-- 2bits ".
Latin musicians have a saying" NO clave ?-- its not mambo / salsa ".

This " rhythm " by the way, also should be present in Rumba ( the foundation for Mambo being " Danzon " --- a form of Sq. Rumba)

And again, I do appreciate your frustration. I,ve been teaching this for multi yrs, and with few exceptions ,it can take many months before one can attune ones ear.

There are several good CDs with strong clave intros- will see if i can "dig" one up.

By the way, as a matter of interest, Cumbia , the music and dance( frequently included in some salsa songs, for several bars ) has a pulse rhythm that could be mistaken for Samba. In fact, the basic is much like a very tight Samba whisk ( 5th posit break )

[MacMoto]

This link may be useful in answering the question:

Latin Rhythms: Mystery Unravelled (http://www.midwestclinic.com/clinicianmaterials/2005/victor_lopez.pdf)
http://www.midwestclinic.com/clinicianmaterials/2005/victor_lopez.pdf

See the rhythm patterns shown on page 9 (son montuno/salsa), 11 (mambo) and 16 (samba).

Also, page 19-21 for incorporating bossa nova & samba rhythms, and page 22 onward for "salsifying" the rhythm section.

To answer the OP's question, mambo and samba are based on different rhythm patterns. They simply *sound* different. Try getting hold of 10 mambo songs and 10 samba songs and listen. If you still can't tell the difference, try listening to some more. Eventually, it will become obvious to you which is which.

Note: I know a few salsa/mambo tunes that switch to samba in the middle, just to confuse you... :twisted:

[MacMoto]

I do struggle with Mambo versus Salsa quite a bit,
Some say salsa is just mambo with a new name, all salsa is mambo...
Others say all mambo is salsa, but not all salsa is mambo...

They can't both be right, right? Or can they... :roll:

[tangotime]

This link may be useful in answering the question:

Latin Rhythms: Mystery Unravelled (http://www.midwestclinic.com/clinicianmaterials/2005/victor_lopez.pdf)
http://www.midwestclinic.com/clinicianmaterials/2005/victor_lopez.pdf

Note: I know a few salsa/mambo tunes that switch to samba in the middle, just to confuse you... :twisted:

Please name a few

[MacMoto]

This link may be useful in answering the question:

Latin Rhythms: Mystery Unravelled (http://www.midwestclinic.com/clinicianmaterials/2005/victor_lopez.pdf)
http://www.midwestclinic.com/clinicianmaterials/2005/victor_lopez.pdf


I forgot to mention this:
http://www.oldyorksalsa.com/apps/salsamerlizer/

Developed by our own sweavo, this is just about the best thing you can get for understanding the backbone (rhythm) of salsa. Try turning everything off (by pressing the green buttons on the left) except the clave and conga (tumbao). What you are left with is the clave/tumbao combination tangotime mentioned, which forms the basis of the salsa/mambo sound. When you hear it, you know it's salsa/mambo.

I don't know if there's a samba equivalent of the salsamerlizer.

[sweavo]

Hello peeps!

My knowledge of samba extends far enough for me to spot it and tell it apart from mambo, but not enough to know all the right terms for instruments and parts. Another disclaimer is that I don't know whether ballroom samba is danced to what I'd call real samba music.

In general, I find samba music has a "loping" quality, a sort of circular, tumbling-over -itself ness, whereas mambo rhythms swing a different way. If it's got a strong 1,3,5,7 on a low drum and has lots of subdivisions, it'll be samba. If it seems to dance around the beat with emphasis on "4 and" and "8 and" then it'll be mambo.

All this is rather heuristic, mind. Don't get hung up on following everything, just see what works for you when listening.

Here are some cuban vs. brazilian parts that help you spot which continent you're coming from.


1.2.3.4.5.6.7.8.
..x.x...x..x..x. <- reverse son clave (cuban)
..x..x..x..x..x. <- samba clave (brazilian)
Note that beat 3 is struck exactly by the son clave, but not by the samba clave. The samba clave is equally spaced throughout its two-bar pattern, except at the end when it resets. The spacing of the cuban clave varies throughout the two bars, giving it more of a start-stop feeling.



1 . 2 . 3 . 4 . 5 . 6 . 7 . 8 .
x xxx x x x x x x xxx x x x x x <- maracas, shaker (cuban)
x-- x x x-- x x x-- x x x-- x x <- guiro, scraper (cuban)
Xxx Xxx Xxx Xxx Xxx Xxx Xxx Xxx <- Chocolo, shaker (brazilian)
Conga drum (cuban) accents the slap (X) and open (o) tones

1.2.3.4.5.6.7.8.
X oo X oo
Surdo (brazilian) a loud, large tom tom struck with a soft beater, high and low.

1.2.3.4.5.6.7.8.
h O o h O o
There's also bossa nova which is strongly samba influenced, but slower and usually played on a kit:


1.2.3.4.5.6.7.8.
x x x x x <- rim shot
o oo oo oo o <- kick drum
Xx xXx xXx xXx x <- shaker

[tangotime]

Hello peeps!

.



Another disclaimer is that I don't know whether ballroom samba is danced to what I'd call real samba music.





Its always followed a fairly clear pathway, and it has started to embrace a much more cultural rhythm in recent yrs .

The 1st Orch. based in the UK of any note with a brazilian orch. leader was Edmundo Ros.
He tended in those days (40s--50s ), to orchestrate songs with more of a " pop " flavor.
Today, most of the B/room world relies far more on indigenous brazilian artists .

The dance , however, is far removed from the carnival type that one sees in Brazil. ( at least-- they got the music right ! )

[Dancing Diva]

I never really determine the genre of songs, only if their very popular do I.

[Angel HI]

Some say salsa is just mambo with a new name, all salsa is mambo...Others say all mambo is salsa, but not all salsa is mambo...
They can't both be right, right? Or can they...

Surprised Sweavo didn't chime in on this. Simplifying, mambo was first, and is a faster, harder (more pronounced) rhythm. For the greatest examples, find some Tito Puente. Salsa is a hybrid of Medio, Cumbia de Salsa, Cumbia Tropical, and Mambo, and is the same but slower, softer rhythm as Mambo. Many of the Hispanics/Latins call the dances Salsamambo because of their closely shared traits.

[carolzhong]

Listen to the conga

[chachachacat]

Samba is the only Latin dance with this distinctive timing:
3/4, 1/4, whole count.

3/4 - One
1/4 - ah
1 - two

3/4 - three
1/4 - ah
1 - four

[Ron Obvious]

Yes, the only thing I know about samba is that it's in 3/4 timing, whereas mambo and salsa is in 4/4 timing. So the identification should be easy just based on that: if you can count to four then it's salsa; if you can count to three then it's samba (or maybe waltz).

[tangotime]

Yes, the only thing I know about samba is that it's in 3/4 timing, whereas mambo and salsa is in 4/4 timing. So the identification should be easy just based on that: if you can count to four then it's salsa; if you can count to three then it's samba (or maybe waltz).




Samba is written in a 2/4 time sign.

many teachers (?) count it as 1,2,3, which is incorrect .

Should be counted...1 a 2 a 3 a 4..... and 2 a 2 a 3 a 4

the rhythm allocation ( which confuses many ) is... 3/4-- 1/4... 3/4--1/4 ... 3/4--1/4....... the last move is one WHOLE beat thus comprising the 2 bars in the musical sequence as in 4 whole beats .

[Ron Obvious]

So it seems I should go back to the school bench then. Maybe we should start a brand new thread for time signature versus rhythm structure.