casino

[Jack]

Is Casino more difficult to learn? We have a place that teaches it here, I've been thinking about checking it out .......You thoughts?
It looks like a lot of fun to me

[Sagitta]

I think that casino should be learnt by people who at least know the salsa basics, and preferably by intermediate level salsa dancers. Having said that I know some people who have learnt casino without really learning salsa first, but the difference is there and can be seen.

Some previous threads on casino for you to peruse...if I am guessing correctly on the salsa style that you are referring to:

request = casino rueda step (http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=2447&highlight=rueda)

Casino Rueda-Too Structured, No individuality? (http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=2399&highlight=rueda)

Followers and Leaders in Rueda (http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=2226&highlight=rueda)

Rueda (http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=1090&highlight=rueda)

[Sabor]

If it is Rueda u mean (the wheel) - i support Sagitta's opinion in that is best to do it after beginner phase .. solidify the basic knowledge first and foremost then start style 'tasting' in a manner of speaking..

A big problem i noticed .. some salsa scenes teach salsa to beginners thru Rueda so as to maximize class numbers and easier for the instructor cause they deal with the whole group at once.. this .. to my eyes.. have ultimately lead to dire results.. as the those beginners who sarted learning with rueda became 'move executors' if u can call it that.. ie.. their interpretation to music is really hampered because they learned salsa thru a group of moves called by the circle leader and they got limitted to that.. so.. when they try dancing in couples they dish out the moves like mimics ..one after the other as they did in the circle disregarding the music high/lows/pauses/speed etc.. it looks mighty ugly when the music pauses and the couple are in mid-routine motion because they can only go on with the move they memorized..

Plus also it takes away from the lead because as a rueda dancer the lead is by one guy only - the one who is calling the move.. the other guys are following the order down.. so as a beginner.. u go into that scene you very possibly might end up less creative and a 'move disher'

BUT..

If u do it in the intermediate / advanced phase.. then by all means its mighty fun and would add to u in terms of moves and sharing the dance with as many people as possible .. which when done well.. is nothing short of fabuloso! :D

[MacMoto]

.. as the those beginners who sarted learning with rueda became 'move executors' if u can call it that.. ie.. their interpretation to music is really hampered because they learned salsa thru a group of moves called by the circle leader and they got limitted to that.. so.. when they try dancing in couples they dish out the moves like mimics ..one after the other as they did in the circle disregarding the music high/lows/pauses/speed etc.. it looks mighty ugly when the music pauses and the couple are in mid-routine motion because they can only go on with the move they memorized..
I don't think this problem is limited to people learning salsa through Rueda... I've danced with many 'move executors' who pay no regard to the music. Many group classes are too focused on teaching moves to pay enough attention to lead/follow skills or musicality (one of my pet gripes).

[Sabor]

yes MacMoto.. it isn't limitted to Rueda teaching.. just one of the major contributing factors.. but hey.. :idea: maybe the move dishers u danced with learned salsa as beginners in rueda too aye LOL

[SDsalsaguy]

So Jack, were you talking about Rueda or just Casino?

My term for your 'move executors' MacMoto, is "Pattern Dancers"... for exactly the reasons you describe.

[Jack]

Thanks for the input.....

[Jack]

I think in this stage of the game if I was in the Casino wheel, it would get a flat tire......
So be it though !

[john]

I live in Miami, Florida. When I first got into Salsa, the only style being taught down here was Casino. I was lucky enough to afford private classes, so I never took group classes and I never got into the Rueda thing.

Most people, however, can not afford private classes so for them it's either Rueda in a group or nothing.

Undoubtedly, no instructor can afford to pay attention to detail when he or she is teaching a group of 30 to 50 people, much like a chef can't expect to prepare his best meal when he is cooking for a mob of 50 people who are all going to enter the dining hall at once.

As for its complexity:
Now that Miami, however fledling, has it's L.A. style(my prefered) and Mambo schools, you will notice by visiting these schools that the majority of students who frequent them are either students who were in advanced levels of Casino, or people who moved to Miami from somewhere else and danced L.A. or Mambo style where they came from.

In any of the numerous Casino schools, you will see people of all ages taking classes, becuase it is way more social a style. I have personally witnessed many beginners and elderly dancers walk out of an L.A. class the moment they saw their first dip being performed, and just about run for the door at the site of a neck drop.

[Sagitta]

And so it is John... Welcome to df and thanks for sharing your experiences. :D

[Jack]

I Have been in non Rueda casino style group lessons since my salsa puberty, here in Orlando.
I may keep doing this because timing, rhthym, etc: are most inportant to me. I know moves now, I feel more will be easier with timing and rhythm.

I dont want to be a pattern dancer at 100 mph.

[Sagitta]

Defintely not Jack. It always is good to go at a pace that works for you, and to amke sure you get those basics right. :)

[salsachinita]

IMHO, you get pattern dancers/move dishers no matter what style. In my local scene these people are generally L.A. style dancers.

But I will say that while casino *not soley taught in the Rueda formation* is great fun for everyone, the absolute beginners who started in this style can [1] & tend to present a complete lack/disregard of techniques which makes them poor leaders/followers. I have no idea why.

In comparison, L.A. schools teach a lot of moves/tricks which requires/demands greater techniques, so they tend to churn out students with better frames, and often (but not always, some don't lead, they just point :shock: ) better leading skills.

So when asked, I tend to send newbies to a more general kind of salsa instructor/school, where they are not heavily into one style or another. The newbies can make up their own mind after the absolute beginner stage as to which direction they'd like to head. Just my two cents.....

[1]Disclaimer: NOT in all cases. These are personal observations only, based on my local scene.

[peachexploration]

But I will say that while casino *not soley taught in the Rueda formation* is great fun for everyone, the absolute beginners who started in this style can [1] & tend to present a complete lack/disregard of techniques which makes them poor leaders/followers. I have no idea why..

Right SalsaChinita. It's because Rueda is focus more on moves. Hence the caller calls them out and the group executes them. It's really not good for beginniners. I also recommend learning good technique in one on one classes, then go on to rueda. :)

[Jack]

Well, I danced the Casino Rueda last nite at one of the studios here.
And I must tell you it was all together different. It is a more social way to learn, with caller and the moves to change partners, and a different basic
between moves. The circle or " casino" is quite interesting and we danced hard the whole lesson. The moves are ones that I learned in other classes.

The down side to this style is that there may not be as much emphasis on timing, and gaining club style " one on one" experience.
I will go back though it was a lot of fun, maybe one nite casino, one nite regular lessons.

[Sagitta]

Glad that you enjoyed yourself Jack. There definitely is less of that one-to-one experienec one has during partner dancing, but I'm hooked. I take a lesson in rueda on Tuesday night, practice it with a group of people on Thursday night, and try and do demos whenever and wherever I can. As I get better I'm sure that my opportunities to do so will increase. Anyway, I'm glad that we have another rueda dancer to join "us". :D

[peachexploration]

Well, I danced the Casino Rueda last nite at one of the studios here.
And I must tell you it was all together different. It is a more social way to learn, with caller and the moves to change partners, and a different basic
between moves. The circle or " casino" is quite interesting and we danced hard the whole lesson. The moves are ones that I learned in other classes.

The down side to this style is that there may not be as much emphasis on timing, and gaining club style " one on one" experience.
I will go back though it was a lot of fun, maybe one nite casino, one nite regular lessons.
:cheers: Ditto what Sagitta said. :D

[Danish Guy]

Yeah, Casino is fun!

Many of the moves can easily be used in social dancing in the clubs.
Just remember to finish with a dile que no or likewise instead of running to the next
lady.

There are a few drawbacks in the way of learning salsa.
Just pay this attention, and it wont be a major problem.

The girls are leading themselves. :shock: :? :shock:
Because of the caller is setting the moves, they know exactly what to do.
Even if your lead isn't good. Sometimes they even try to take over.

You don't get much feedback on your lead due to the fact above. :shock: :? :shock:
Go to the clubs, try the moves, and find out if your lead is working.

[peachexploration]

Yeah, Casino is fun!

Many of the moves can easily be used in social dancing in the clubs.
Just remember to finish with a dile que no or likewise instead of running to the next lady. . :lol: :lol: Yeah, I see alot of people getting upset on the dance floor if your forget.


The girls are leading themselves. :shock: :? :shock:
Because of the caller is setting the moves, they know exactly what to do.
Even if your lead isn't good. Sometimes they even try to take over.. Yeah, I had that problem. (Rueda was my introduction to Salsa) That's why it's better to take one on one classes before you go to Rueda.

[salsachinita]

:idea: Maybeb that's why Cuban schools churned out so many mediocre leads :idea: The poor guys never had a chance :( .......

:oops: I have to admit it's too easy for the girls to take over, especially if the guys let us :oops: .........I am guilty of this (a bit) but totally aware.

Sometimes, as followers, the less we know, the better :? .

[Genesius Redux]

Hey Salsachinita! Been a while since I talked to you! :kissme:

Jack--salsa puberty??? :lol: :lol: :lol:

I will as usual play :twisted: advocate, and speak up on behalf of teaching patterns. In group classes, patterns make it easier for each partner to learn their own steps. That way, as Salsachinita points out, if the girls get stuck with guys who can't lead the pattern, they can at least practice their own steps, and even learn how to back lead a little, which I think of as a survival skill on the social floor.

Second, the patterns give newbie dancers a way of pulling different steps together for the first time. No, they're not interpreting the music at this point--but give em a break! They're just starting!

The key to teaching new dancers music interpretation, I think, is doing a lot of different but overlapping patterns. Different ways to end patterns, so they start to see there are choices they can make. I was playing around a couple of nights ago with a cumbia pattern, which was originally taught to me with she goes-he goes right turns to end it. But then an alternative ending is a forward spot turn into a cross-body lead. Do you do a spin in the cross-body lead? One or two? Inside or outside?

You build up a repertoire of choices by increasing patterns. Patterns are the way people learn. True, people who only come to one or two group classes and get only one or two patterns are never really going to learn the complexities of dance. But they get a little bit, and they have fun, so what's the harm?

This has nothing whatever to do with the thread on casino, which I don't know but would love to learn. Just that patterns are not always a bad thing, and that different dancers learn to break out of their patterns at different stages of a dancing career.

Cheers,

Genesius

[Jack]

dile que no is my top move !

[Sagitta]

A good thing too!! :)

I've been thinking about this and realized that rueda, dancing in a circle, has actually helped my dancing significantly. There are many things I did not get learning salsa, but I got through rueda. I know that if I started with rueda in Ithaca I would have learnt to dance salsa well, and not just sort of know the moves....My class was 3-4 couples when I started so perhaps this is why this is the case. It's not necessarily a particular dance, per se, but the environment in which it is taught, and how it is taught.

This isn't an advocation that one learn rueda before one learns salsa. I still think learning salsa makes learning rueda easier, and is the better approach because in learning salsa you are dancing with one person and with rueda many so you affect, have an effect, on a lot more people.