Social Foxtrot

[gclarke]

Hi Guys - I'm back!

Hands up all those who groaned and I will strike you off my Xmas card list :mad:

Had a great time in Sri-Lanka but very frustrated that there was absolutely nowhere to dance. Came back to classes and the start of the Foxtrot.

Guess what - I'm confused again.

I'm told the social foxtrot (is that the same as the slow foxtrot?) is quite easy but I found it very hard to get the rythm and kept stepping with the wrong foot even though we had very little to learn.

I got home and grabbed my books and videos only to find what we were learning wasn't there.

I watched the basic step on the video and had no problem but what we have been taught is a sort of box where we tap (brush?) but don't transfer the weight.
Lady
S Back left
S Back right (tap/brush left foot to right)
Q Left foot to side
Q Tap right to left
S Right Forward
S Left Forward (tap right foot to left)
Q Right foot to side
Q Tap left foot to right

From there we repeat. I find it incredibly difficult to tap rather than put the foot down after the second quick, especially before we repeat. I almost always transfer the weight and start on the right foot instead of the left.

When I try and find it in my books or videos they seem to start on the right not the left and DO transfer the weight rather than tap to use the same foot.

Have we learned a completely different step?

Edit: As usual, it is quite possible I have the timing wrong.

[fascination]

welcome back...I am not bright enough to answer your question...but welcome back

[Bailamosdance]

I am not familiar with the social foxtrot in your area of the world, but in North America there is no 'tap' step.

[gclarke]

Thanks both.

Hubby says I have it wrong - It's
Lady
S Back left
S Back right (tap/brush left foot to right)
? Left foot to side
? Right foot to left
? Left foot to side
? Right Foot taps to left
S Right Forward
S Left Forward (tap right foot to left)
? Right foot to side
? Left foot to right
? Right foot left
? Left foot taps to right

Ready to go back with left foot to repeat.

And now I've completely lost the plot with the timing.

[Josh]

? Left foot to right
? Right foot left


Welcome back gc--

Think about what you wrote above... :-) :confused:

So social foxtrot is not the same as slow foxtrot, though it's a good introduction to it in many ways. Particularly, as long as you don't dance social foxtrot like it's often danced socially, you'll be just fine :-) Most people in the US will call it American Bronze Foxtrot.

Not sure what you've been learning, but it typically goes something like this:

1) RF back
2) LF back
3) RF side, turning 1/4 to R
4) LF closes to RF
---
1) RF fwd
2) LF fwd
3) RF side, turning 1/4 to L
4) LF closes to RF

This will get you around the floor and is just a forward and back basic turning. The "tap/brush" you're referring to may be the natural path of the foot under the body. Though in real dancing the actual brush action doesn't really happen a lot, it's often used for beginners to get them to keep their legs and feet under their body and to take actual forward and back steps instead of forward/side and back/side steps.

[gclarke]

Thanks Josh. That's what I'm seeing on the videos and I suspected the tap may be something put in for beginners. What I am really struggling with is the fact that we start on the opposite foot to what seem the norm, ie lady goes back on left.

The hardest part is as we move from the side steps (side close side tap) to go forward (or the reverse) the weight is not put on the tapping foot so we are stepping forward with what seems like the wrong foot.

Either I'm describing it very badly or maybe this is something peculiar to the UK.

In my simple mind it goes (lady)
Back SStap side close side tap
Forward SStap side close side tap
Repeat then promenade SSQQ

But always the foot that taps makes the next step which is not something that seems to happens in the videos.

[fascination]

I have never gone back on my left to start a social foxtrot in my life

[Purr]

I have never gone back on my left to start a social foxtrot in my life

That's because you don't. Women start with their right foot. Why? Because women are always right.






Ok, it's an overused saying, I know, I'll go back into lurk mode now, thank you.

[etp777]

It looks right for first half, but then yeah, I'm with fasc, seems like second half is either somethign I've never seen, or it's a description of what guy is doing whiel woman is doing first half.

[BlueBambue]

I also have never encountered a social foxtrot like that, and don't reall know what to tell you.:confused:

[tangotime]

Simple answer-- English style 1/4 turns ( right ) start with mans left foot .

Social f/t is based on q/step , hence the usage .

[etp777]

Ahhh, never touched QS yet, so might explain my cluelessness.

[gclarke]

That's because you don't. Women start with their right foot. Why? Because women are always right. My sentiments exactly and hubby is just learning that it applies to dancing also. I never tread on his toes because I made a mistake - it's always that he puts his feet where they can be trod on ;)

Well from everyones comments, it looks like there is a good reason why I can't find it in my books or on video. I really hate this since I seem to be the only one in class that feels the need to know the timing of what I'm doing. I know he said the basic rythm was SQQ but it doesn't seem to fit that.

I know we sometimes learn stuff in a way that helps large numbers not bump into each other, ie compact boxes in the Waltz which he will 'open up' later. This is a sort of 2 box set before the promenade.

I'm going to have to make a nuisance of myself and ask what it's called. Why does it only seem to me that asks questions or wants something repeating? I suppose I shouldn't whinge. The new beginners class is 24 couples on a small dance floor. Hardly room to breathe :-|

BTW, will all the music recommended on this forum for foxtrot be for ballroom? ie too fast for social foxtrot?

[nucat78]

Hmmm, American Bronze FT is SSQQ with a foot brush between the slows. If you do a sidestep (?), it's side-tap, side-tap, QQ. Man's : Left to left, right tap to left foot, right to right, left tap to right foot, left to left and right closes to left. At least that's the way I was taught it.

No clue on Standard version though.

We do a SQQ if we're turning to promenade or doing a FT box step for example.

I'd suggest looking into obtaining some ISTD or DVIDA or similar manuals. I bought a DVIDA American Bronze Smooth manual and it's helped me with step names and terminology as well as other things.

[gclarke]

Simple answer-- English style 1/4 turns ( right ) start with mans left foot. So I'm guessing, being a UK instructor, you aren't familiar with any social foxtrot steps where the man goes forward right, lady back left? Especially to start a routine?

[Gorme]

I watched the basic step on the video and had no problem but what we have been taught is a sort of box where we tap (brush?) but don't transfer the weight.
Lady
S Back left
S Back right (tap/brush left foot to right)
Q Left foot to side
Q Tap right to left
S Right Forward
S Left Forward (tap right foot to left)
Q Right foot to side
Q Tap left foot to right

From there we repeat. I find it incredibly difficult to tap rather than put the foot down after the second quick, especially before we repeat. I almost always transfer the weight and start on the right foot instead of the left.

When I try and find it in my books or videos they seem to start on the right not the left and DO transfer the weight rather than tap to use the same foot.


What you described sounds like American Foxtrot Bronze syllabus, except you got the steps wrong. The woman's steps are:

1. RF back on S
2. LF back on S
3. RF to the right side up to 1/4 turn on Q
4. LF close up to RF on Q

Leader faces DW, makes 1/4 turn left and moves with his back to DC, then your 2nd half of the steps would be:

1. RF fwd on S
2. LF fwd on S
3. RF to the right side up to 1/4 turn to left on Q
4. LF closes up to RF on Q

There is no tap at the end.

[gclarke]

What you described sounds like American Foxtrot Bronze syllabus, except you got the steps wrong.Lol I'm sure you are right about the American Bronze and I did get the steps wrong first post
BUT (right or wrong) we are definitely taught
Lady
back left back right tap side close side tap
forward right forward left tap side close side tap

I know he described the back and forward steps as slow and the side steps as quick but not very precisely, and I know we sort of complete a square ending back where we started, beyond that, I'm clueless :mad:

[Chris Stratton]

in North America there is no 'tap' step.

There most certainly is one, it's just not real popular at the moment.

Looks like what gclarke is learning is not the same set of figures commonly danced in the US at the moment.

That doesn't mean it's right or wrong, it just means it's different.

It would seem like the skill to be learned here is the difference between moving through a foot onto the next foot, vs. staying stable over a foot. That's in addition to the difference between moving quickly through a foot and moving slowly through one (so as to be able to take up an entire 'slow' count with the step)

[Me]

gclarke all I can say is, from what you have described, you are not dancing any version of the Foxtrot that I know. Tapping your foot and not transferring the weight will create the exact problems you are having - It will put you on the wrong foot and it will throw you off rhythm.

[Chris Stratton]

I'm really appalled by the narrowminded attitudes being displayed here about what can constitute a workable social foxtrot.

Really the only constraint is that you do something that works for two bodies and you communicate it clearly.

There are things I'd like to see in terms of quality of movement, which are what define foxtrot as a dance for me, but not even all teachers will agree on them.

The figure patterns themselves... are irrelevant. All that matters in the end is the communication between bodies.

[Me]

I'm really appalled by the narrowminded attitudes being displayed here about what can constitute a workable social foxtrot.

Really the only constraint is that you do something that works for two bodies and you communicate it clearly.

There are things I'd like to see in terms of quality of movement, but not even all teachers will agree on that.

The figure patterns themselves... are irrelevant. All that matters in the end is the communication between bodies.

Good job insulting the entire board Chris! :uplaugh:

[gclarke]

.. and it will throw you off rhythm.Well that's exactly what I feel like but it may just be me. I always get VERY frustrated learning new steps when I don't pick it up quickly.

This kind of feels like I am trying to cope with a switch in pace or rythm before I've learned what the rythm actually is.

I've been practicing those few steps on and off during the afternoon and it feels better until I switch to the promenade, but I think that's becuase I'm not really sure of the earlier timing.

I'm counting SStap to begin with but it feels more like a SQQ
followed by a side close side tap (QQQQ?)
Well that's the rythm I'm dancing to but I have no idea if it's right.

[gclarke]

It would seem like the skill to be learned here is the difference between moving through a foot onto the next foot, vs. staying stable over a foot. That's in addition to the difference between moving quickly through a foot and moving slowly through one (so as to be able to take up an entire 'slow' count with the step)I did notice on the video I have, that they sort of brush (almost tap) before moving to the side. As Josh intimated, I did wonder whether our taps were a form of this. [Sort of like we are taught 234wait in the rumba. I was quite shocked to find out there wasn't really a wait in it :o]

[Me]

I admit I'm just having a difficult time understanding your questions.

People can tap as they pass their feet (as an embellishment) and it looks quite nice really, and it can act as a way to keep time... but opting to tap when you should close and transfer weight will throw you off.

I'm thinking a great deal is being lost in translation. When you yourself are confused about something and try to ask a question from a different audience, each person will interpret differently and answer differently, possibly increasing your confusion.

I think, based on all of the various answers here, your best bet is to ask your instruction for clarity.

[Chris Stratton]

but opting to tap when you should close and transfer weight will throw you off.

As will closing and transferring weight when your partner opts to tap...

Either is valid, you simply both have to do the same thing in the context of a consistent whole that supports what you both did.

[gclarke]

I'm thinking a great deal is being lost in translation. When you yourself are confused about something and try to ask a question from a different audience, each person will interpret differently and answer differently, possibly increasing your confusion.

I think, based on all of the various answers here, your best bet is to ask your instruction for clarity.Yes I know. It's just that when I start to ask something I assume it's just me that it is a puzzle to and to everyone else it will be patently obvious. As usual there are a thousand and one things I'd like to ask in class but never enough time or opportunity.

I was hoping to get a couple of private lessons with him but the new class is 24 couples and life will be hectic for a while. I would desperately like to get into the next class up which had just 2 couples last night, but without the extra lessons .......:(

On another subject, I emailed an instructor on YouTube about something I saw on her video and she was so helpful, emailing me her class notes. I would LOVE to have class notes. I would happily pay more for my classes but it's a majority rule. We only pay £3 an hour which I think is VERY low but then I used to play bridge and when they put the fee up from £1 to £2 for 3 hours including tea and biscuits, some people left. First increase in years. Go figure!

[and123]

Thanks both.

Hubby says I have it wrong - It's
Lady
S Back left
S Back right (tap/brush left foot to right)
? Left foot to side
? Right foot to left
? Left foot to side
? Right Foot taps to left
S Right Forward
S Left Forward (tap right foot to left)
? Right foot to side
? Left foot to right
? Right foot left
? Left foot taps to right

Ready to go back with left foot to repeat.

And now I've completely lost the plot with the timing.

This kinda sounds like a mutated/extended version of the sway step in American Bronze Foxtrot. Timing for that is S-tap-S-tap-QQ. You seem to have an extra side chasse in your version, in addition to taking a forward or backward step in between the side steps. The sway step is taken to the side only. For your sequence above it seems like the timing should be SSQQQQ, but since there are so many other strange things going on there, anything is possible. The only reason I can think of for the lady going back on the left foot initially is to keep the rest of the pattern in the traditional "box" shape going back/side/forward.

[gclarke]

This kinda sounds like a mutated/extended version of the sway step in American Bronze Foxtrot. Timing for that is S-tap-S-tap-QQ. You seem to have an extra side chasse in your version, in addition to taking a forward or backward step in between the side steps. The sway step is taken to the side only. For your sequence above it seems like the timing should be SSQQQQ, but since there are so many other strange things going on there, anything is possible. The only reason I can think of for the lady going back on the left foot initially is to keep the rest of the pattern in the traditional "box" shape going back/side/forward.I suspect much of what we do in our classes is governed by the size of the dance floor although we could just as easily do the 'box' starting on the right or left, one going clockwise, the other anti-clockwise. No doubt there will be a reason that I've missed :)

Hubby says in the second round of the 'box, we do the promenade INSTEAD of the chasse not after it. That makes me groan even more. I'd kind of got my head round the boxes being SSQQQQ SSQQQQ x2 followed by SSQQ for the promenade.

Now my 'mathematical' brain is groaning at the idea of the second box being SSQQQQ SS (tap?) SSQQ(promenade).

Bring back the waltz where I can count 123 123 ..... :confused::cry:

[Chris Stratton]

The problem here is that worrying about the patterns is really getting in the way of learning to dance...

You should not be trying to know what comes next, you should be trying to feel what your partner is doing right now.

Learn to feel the difference between a tap and a step, and then you won't need to worry about which it was supposed to be, you'll just both do the one that it came out to be. That's when you'll be dancing.

[gclarke]

You should not be trying to know what comes next, you should be trying to feel what your partner is doing right now.Well if hubby actually knew what HE was doing .....;)

Seriously, I know you're right. I wish we would spend more time on 'dancing' rather than learning the steps, if you know what I mean. The only time Dave gets frustrated is the few occasions we are let loose to try and get round the floor. It's absolute chaos and gridlock.

I feel I am always struggling to find a way I can learn it and feel it so I can relax and start to 'dance'. Does that make sense?

It is working to some extent though Chris. Some of the dances I'm finding are starting to feel more natural and I'm even managing a few avoidance tactics which was unimaginable not so long ago.

[Gorme]

The other way to look at this is what Chris has been saying. Just relax and feel it. It doesn't matter if your husband is doing the steps completely wrong as long as both feel good moving along. When the follower stops thinking about the steps that the leader is doing, she will have a wonderful time out there.

Often times, my followers do not realized I mixed up the patterns from waltz, foxtrot, and QS together. They just know that it seemed to have worked and we're still dancing smoothly around the floor.

[soshedances]

I agree with Gorme. I've found that it's more enjoyable as a follow if I just try to let go, relax, and focus on just feeling the lead. I try to turn my brain off, which is hard to do if you're analytical like me, but it helps me avoid anticipating which figure the lead is going to try next...if I try to guess, it'll always be wrong!

Good leading and following takes lots of time and practice, it's a never-ending process!

[Chris Stratton]

The only time Dave gets frustrated is the few occasions we are let loose to try and get round the floor. It's absolute chaos and gridlock.

It might be worth finding another time or place to practice. Social foxtrot can fit in a largish living room, a wide building hallway, etc...

Also he may find it easier to just use a few of the most basic steps for these experiments. Gradually as he gets able to do that without thinking, he can introduce some of the more complicated things from class, knowing that when the going gets tough he can always drop back to the already familiar stuff without needing to think about that.

Personally, there's only three steps I use in social rhythm foxtrot ;-)

[gclarke]

Gorme, I understand what you are saying but we aren't dancing here, as such, we are going over parts of a routine in the class, ie we are expected to master the steps that particular week so that when we return to that dance 3 or 4 weeks later, we can learn new steps.

To leave the class without knowing I have the steps or at least can work them out when I get home, would be absolute torture for me.

I know most others in the class will take a much more relaxed view as will my husband but the bottom line is that even he would get quite grumpy if the rest of the class coped and he didn't.

In fact I suspect most people struggle with bits and pieces and happily muddle through but that just isn't in my nature. And I guess most people here have probably realised that by now :):)

Ultimately, when we have enough of the routine to get round the floor, we are let loose to try, and believe me, it is usally a disaster, at which point it's back to the drawing board..

I am heartened by the fact that we can get round in our waltz with all it's weaves and turns, when other are still struggling, but it took quite a bit of blood sweat and tears to keep up with the steps. Now we have time to relax and learn to 'dance' instead of just 'doing the routine'. Other dances aren't quite so easy to swot up on.

[gclarke]

It might be worth finding another time or place to practice. Social foxtrot can fit in a largish living room, a wide building hallway, etc...
Personally, there's only three steps I use in social rhythm foxtrot ;-)We have a social dance every month. The last one I went to was great. We had just enough to be able to practice most dances.

Sadly we missed the last one. They changed the date due to a wedding and we were on holiday. I have high hopes for the next one.

Which 3 steps Chris?:)

soshedances, I can relate to what you're saying. I think I am getting closer to that point now. I found for the first time this week that some steps I had forgotten came back when I 'switched off' and just danced through it. Until now, it's been pure concentration just to remember enough to get by.

Added to which I have CFIDS, which I hope I am recovering from after 11 years, but fatigue and mental fog don't always help. Mind you, sometimes it's hard to tells what's plain old age creeping up when it comes to 'senior moments' at 56.

[Chris Stratton]

Which 3 steps Chris?:)

1) Quarter turns basic (maybe that should count as two)

2) Hesitation step - sort of two steps of quarter turn, back up and go in a new direction instead (use when blocked)

3) Waltz-like reverse turn

[soshedances]

I find it also helps when I write down new figures ASAP after I've been shown them. Then I can review my notes even when I'm not in a good space for dancing (in class...at work...hehe) or when I'm practicing without a partner. Even if I can't remember certain parts, I'll write down what I do know, attempt to figure out as much as I can on my own, then I'll ask at the next class.

Sometimes I'll write down a neat figure I've been led through at a social, then ask my coach about it. I've learned some interesting stuff that way!;)

[Mostly Ballroom]

From there we repeat. I find it incredibly difficult to tap rather than put the foot down after the second quick, especially before we repeat. I almost always transfer the weight and start on the right foot instead of the left.

If you consciously make your self aware that the tap step is coming and you're planning ahead to make your feet do what you want then when the time comes you won't be surprised by the tap. You're gunning for it. Of course, you may drop a few earlier balls as you start this juggling routine but that's the price to pay when you learn to juggle more balls.

Someone may have mentioned this but if the tap were a brush it wouldn't be so tempting to change weight. You would just keep moving the moving foot through. It's just now the moving foot is forced to tap before it keeps moving through.

[BM]

I agree with Gorme. I've found that it's more enjoyable as a follow if I just try to let go, relax, and focus on just feeling the lead. I try to turn my brain off, which is hard to do if you're analytical like me, but it helps me avoid anticipating which figure the lead is going to try next...if I try to guess, it'll always be wrong!

Good leading and following takes lots of time and practice, it's a never-ending process!

Ditto to all of that. Social dancing, be it with regular partner or someone new, should be the epitome of the term "lead and follow." We use these terms so readily in regards to what we're dancing, but how frequently do we REALLY apply it? How often are we practising, and as "follows," dance ourselves rather than waiting for the indicator, because we "know" what's next in our routines? Perhaps that's one of the many reasons why I love social dancing in addition to competing: for a while, at least, I force myself to "shut down" and enjoy "real" partner dancing. I wait for an invitation to any figure, and even if dancing with a beginner, the thrill is there because I STILL don't know what's coming next. :)

[Terpsichorean Clod]

I think your desire to dance well is at odds with your class schedule. I really think you're doing wayyyyy too much. If I recall correctly, over the last few months, you've been doing tango, jive, quickstep, social foxtrot. You've been covering a plethora of figures in each dance - even silver/gold figures. :shock:

How about picking one dance - say, quickstep? Stick to quarter turns for a few weeks, maybe even a month or more. Live it, breathe it, sear it into your bones. When you've reached a high level of comfort, when you and Dave can lead/follow it without much conscious thought, add one or two more figures. Again, get comfortable with these new figures before adding some more. Then apply this process to another dance. I think you'll find it much, much easier to pick up the next dance. The pace of your class is geared towards those who want to learn at a very superficial level - to get steps. By concentrating on a dance, you won't be learning just steps that might be unique to that dance, but rather developing core dancing skills that are applicable to all your other dances.

It's wonderful that you have such enthusiasm for learning dance! I know teachers over here who wish they had more inquisitive students like you in their classes.

[Me]

I think your desire to dance well is at odds with your class schedule. I really think you're doing wayyyyy too much. If I recall correctly, over the last few months, you've been doing tango, jive, quickstep, social foxtrot. You've been covering a plethora of figures in each dance - even silver/gold figures. :shock:

It's wonderful that you have such enthusiasm for learning dance! I know teachers over here who wish they had more inquisitive students like you in their classes.

AGREED!!!!

[samina]

I think it's helpful to remember that there are many different temperaments with many different learning styles, and that there isn't one right universal approach. Some people do better to proceed steadily & methodically, some are more spherical with numerous levels explored at once. I think gay may be more of the latter sort. Seems to me she's having a blast learning just as she's doing it...

I remember joining a very special open gold standard group class taught by a world-class coach when I had no experience with foxtrot and that was the month's dance. I spent nearly six months in that class and it still resonates in my mind... There's something to be said for "beginner's mind" when you don't know much at all and are so receptive. I loved the exposure to advanced choreo, but it's the bits of technique I learned that still often guide my practice.

[Easy]

That's the strangest and most complicated form of beginning social foxtrot I have ever seen. Assuming either of the first two descriptions were correct, it just seems odd to put taps in beginning social foxtrot. They're very difficult for a novice dancer to lead, but maybe I'm just assuming the pattern/s are basic.

The only piece of advice I can offer is in order to lead the taps in a social way would be to relax in the supporting leg(non-tapping) with some slight sway. When your husband wants to lead a tap, ask him to do this with an emphasis on the relaxing heaviness in the supporting leg ;)

[gclarke]

Thanks everyone. It's clear I'm not going to get a magic answer to what steps we may be doing but I get such a lot out of these discussions.

Samina, you are right. Despite the accute frustrations almost every week, I am very much enjoying it. I get bored very easily and a lot of my hobby's I 'work' very hard at then lose interest once mastered. Dancing I think, will be different. When I feel a bit down and put on the music, it really cheers me up.

Easy, you can't imagine how grumpy I get to get home and realise what we're doing isn't 'standard' and I can't check things I'm unsure of. Many people here of mentioned following, and trust me, I am listening, but at the moment Dave doesn't have the skills to lead. It's absolute bliss when I get the few seconds chance to dance with our instructor or occasionally one of the more experienced dancers. It will come though, and he's very good at humoring my need to do better.

I think your desire to dance well is at odds with your class schedule. I really think you're doing wayyyyy too much. If I recall correctly, over the last few months, you've been doing tango, jive, quickstep, social foxtrot. You've been covering a plethora of figures in each dance - even silver/gold figures. :shock:.......
The pace of your class is geared towards those who want to learn at a very superficial level - to get steps. By concentrating on a dance, you won't be learning just steps that might be unique to that dance, but rather developing core dancing skills that are applicable to all your other dances.
Terps, I think you have probably hit the nail on the head and I try to remember that the rest of the class, including Dave, is happy to have their lesson and switch off till the next one.

BTW, you forgot the cha cha, waltz, samba, rumba :)

The next class after ours is an hour, after that I think we may have chance to practice a little. Remembering the advice I've been given here, I think I manage to rope Dave in to just enough discussion/home practice to improve where can without going too far.

I'm going to switch off from Foxtrot now as I clearly can't practice without risking getting it all wrong until we do more in class.

Next is the Samba which I absolutely love. So around a dental trip and todays work load I will be working on that a little, less on steps, more on technique. I so love those videos of Jukka Happalainen and Sirpa Suutar on Youtube.

Thanks again everyone.

[nucat78]

How about picking one dance - [...] The pace of your class is geared towards those who want to learn at a very superficial level - to get steps.

So it would seem, but that's the "jewel in the lotus" isn't it?

I have some issues with my teachers having us do more complex choreography when some of us are still learning steps in beginners Bronze. But the number of people in technique classes is very small compared to the number at group classes and the beginners classes are for absolute beginners - dance position and box steps. I'd expect a pretty high drop-out rate if the intermediate group classes were mainly doing box steps while concentrating on frame, technique, etc. Good technique is hard, at least for me at this point.

Perhaps another thread...

[Gorme]

Good technique is hard.

Most social dancers are not interested in technique. As long as they can imitate the complex choreography, they feel they got their money worth. If the instructor spends the majority of the hour on improving technique, the studio gets alot of complaints that the class taught nothing.

[Mostly Ballroom]

Most social dancers are not interested in technique. As long as they can imitate the complex choreography, they feel they got their money worth. If the instructor spends the majority of the hour on improving technique, the studio gets alot of complaints that the class taught nothing.
lol I used to just do bronze Am. foxtrot since since it was all I could do correctly. Then one day I realized that most people were doing silver out there and didn't have a clue of how to do it so I decided what the heck. lol

[JANATHOME]

Samina brings up a great point, we all do learn different. I do not take group classes, instead 2 priviate am/am a week, and I just started latin pro/am once a week. But we generally work on one dance in our lesson, work it on our own during the week, come back the following week and work the same dance again. We may do this for 4 or 5 weeks mainly because I need it kind of drilled into me, and think overall am a slow learner. 90% of our lessons are not new steps, but technique. The down side is no instruction on all the other dances, even though we do run through them in our practice sessions. Lately though we have changed our game plan and are rotating the dances weekly in our lessons and will see how that goes.

[gclarke]

Most social dancers are not interested in technique. As long as they can imitate the complex choreography, they feel they got their money worth. If the instructor spends the majority of the hour on improving technique, the studio gets alot of complaints that the class taught nothing.

I agree. That's why I find it hard sometimes. I want to do better and I so want to say 'stop with new steps and lets get the ones we have right'.

I don't though as I do realise it's me that's out of line with the others and my husband is one of the 'others'.

Samina brings up a great point, we all do learn different. I do not take group classes, instead 2 priviate am/am a week, and I just started latin pro/am once a week. But we generally work on one dance in our lesson, work it on our own during the week, come back the following week and work the same dance again. We may do this for 4 or 5 weeks mainly because I need it kind of drilled into me, and think overall am a slow learner. 90% of our lessons are not new steps, but technique. The down side is no instruction on all the other dances, even though we do run through them in our practice sessions. Lately though we have changed our game plan and are rotating the dances weekly in our lessons and will see how that goes.

I would love to do something like this, maybe alternating weeks with the whole lesson or a good chunk of it on one dance. Or maybe just an occasional week where we look at technique a litle more.

But as Samina says, we all learn differently and it is a group class.

In past threads most of you have advised private lessons but our instructor just doesn't have the time due to a full time job outside of dancing. I won't leave the class for elsewhere as I do enjoy this and would be at odds with Hubby wanting so much more. Also I rang over 20 studios and none were keen to give private lessons. Guess the big money here at the moment is 'pack 'em in' beginners.

[Gorme]

You are in a strange area. Instructors who rather teach group class than a private lesson?!

[gclarke]

You are in a strange area. Instructors who rather teach group class than a private lesson?!
It's a sign of the times I think. With all the current TV coverage, it's so popular. Our instructor only charges £3 but most charge £5 or more. Take 50 people at £5 that's £250 for the hour. If they can correctly judge what stops the fall out and keep a good number of those it's not so hard to see what's happening.

And good luck to them while it's so popular. Tough on people like me though who want more :(

I used to teach public sector NVQ for a while. The payment to the industry was structured so it became what we call 'bums on seats', meaning the financial incentive was to get the numbers up with a smaller percentage of the income left for achievment, leaving it very hard to do what you became a teacher for. I left that industry because of the pressure to push people through quickly turning a blind eye where help was needed in order to get the next batch in.

I think this is similar. With the best will in the world, people are almost always going to follow the money. It takes a strong man or woman to say I should keep this free hour for my students to take a private lesson even though I could start another class and earn way more.

Once again, this is just my perception of something I know very little about ;)

[Josh]

You are in a strange area. Instructors who rather teach group class than a private lesson?!

For one thing: Volume => more money => good.

[Josh]

With the best will in the world, people are almost always going to follow the money. It takes a strong man or woman to say I should keep this free hour for my students to take a private lesson even though I could start another class and earn way more.

It wouldn't take a strong man or woman, it would take a rather foolish one, IMO! It's about smart business, and earning a living and building wealth. If this guy/girl doesn't have the hours, then someone else should be sought out, plain and simple. But please don't make it sound like your instructor is in the charity business--he/she has a right to make money, just like everyone does...

With that being said, a situation arose just yesterday where I'm teaching a group of 16 kids that I originally thought was going to be 4. Because I really like the mother and spoke to one of the girls and found her to be an exceptional young person, I'm making about 40% of what I should be making over the next few weeks and honoring my original price, because I feel it's the right thing to do and like to give to others. So please don't think that what I wrote above means to never give--in fact, my partner and I frequently perform at charity events with hundreds of people that would normally pay us $1000+, but we do it because we enjoy doing it. Just wanted to clarify that seeking ways to make more money in the dance business such as group classes, videos, etc., is a smart way of making money, and if the time for other things is not there, it's just not there.

[gclarke]

But please don't make it sound like your instructor is in the charity business--he/she has a right to make money, just like everyone does.
Sorry Josh, just trying to be tactful and avoid a flood of replies saying what the instructor 'should do' in the interests of dancing. I was trying hard not to imply that everyone puts money above all all whilst at the same time fully understanding that business is business.

Actually my own feelings are just the opposite about our instructor. I feel he doesn't charge enough. I think he would like to expand the dancing as he's desperately short of time due to a full time job, although he works for himself there also. His wife isn't keen though so I guess it won't happen.

I have a way to go before I have to decide whether it's enough for me. I would like to do my bronze etc. as I like to feel I have achieved something. I think he could probabaly sort this out for me but I don't know where it would become a nuisance to him, ie if I wanted to continue with silver/gold etc.

Early days though. I may find I don't have the skills to get that far or Dave gets fed up of my 'enthusiasm'. Quick thought, can one do that sort of thing without a partner?

[nucat78]

For one thing: Volume => more money => good.

Think Wal Mart or discount gas stations. Not that I'm comparing Josh to either! ;)

Compare $55 for a one hour private to a one hour group class with say 10 people at $12 a head. Offset that b/c some are on volume discount or monthly cards, but one is still making more per hour with the group.

Plus I've seen that the group classes usually produce one or two people who decide to take privates as well b/c they had a good experience in group.

And consider the good will and word of mouth advertising that can be generated by a large group class.

[Josh]

Sorry Josh, just trying to be tactful and avoid a flood of replies saying what the instructor 'should do' in the interests of dancing. I was trying hard not to imply that everyone puts money above all all whilst at the same time fully understanding that business is business.

It's all good, I tried not to sound like a meanie though I'm sure it came across that way ;-)

Think Wal Mart or discount gas stations. Not that I'm comparing Josh to either! ;)

Er, thanks, I think.... ;-) hehe

[piimapoika]

This thread seems to have gone from foxtrot to economics in just one week but if I could go back to the beginning for a moment:

I don't know gclarke's teacher, have never been to her class, and have difficulty understanding written dance steps. Nevertheless I think that the "tap" isn't intended to be a separate step at all, but something more like the "gathering" or "collection" taught in Argentine tango classes (there is probably a proper Spanish word as well). The idea is that you don't dance with your legs apart as if you were wearing diapers; but that you try to brush your thighs, knees, and ankles together at every step. Marina Palmer in "Kiss and Tango" likens this to making love to yourself at every step. She says the effect is enhanced if you wear fishnet tights.

When I started learning ballroom in 1961, the social foxtrot wasn't taught as a separate dance. We were simply told that if there wasn't room to dance a genuine slow foxtrot, you could do tiny quickstep quarter turns instead. Actually this dance sounds a lot like the Finnish hidas foksi. It is like the Argentine (or, come to that, Finnish) tango in that it is possible to go into a sort of trance and you cease to be two individuals and become a new sort of creature with four legs and two hearts beating in perfect unison.

[ILikeToJive]

The idea is that you don't dance with your legs apart as if you were wearing diapers;



Location: Bristol -----> Diapers??? Nappies all the way!

[tangotime]

When I started learning ballroom in 1961, the social foxtrot wasn't taught as a separate dance.

.



But it was taught as one, in the States , before the 40s , and as usual ( and yes, i am from the UK ) the english were yrs behind what was developed as a simple social standard that is still being taught today .


The American Smooth is currently being taught in several areas of the UK, but mainly from a Silver concept..
I dont believe the latin will meet with the same success .

[Joe]

American "social foxtrot" is basically rhythm dancing anyway...

[tangotime]

American "social foxtrot" is basically rhythm dancing anyway...


Not exactly.... that term means something different to an english trained dancer .

I recently showed 2 of my colleagues basics in several of the Bronze Smooth and Rhythm dances. They were quite surprised at the variety, and duly noticed the differences from the English system which is still quite rigid in its approach .

They were totally unfamiliar with Sq. Rumba ( they have been teaching for 50 yrs )

[BallandChange]

American "social foxtrot" is basically rhythm dancing anyway...

Hi Joe, what do you mean by American "social foxtrot" being basically rhythm dancing since American "Social Foxtrot" is definitely an American Smooth dance (Waltz, Foxtrot, Tango, Vienesse Waltz) versus American Rhythm (Rumba, ChaCha, Swing, Mambo & Bolero)?

[Chris Stratton]

Hi Joe, what do you mean by American "social foxtrot" being basically rhythm dancing since American "Social Foxtrot" is definitely an American Smooth dance (Waltz, Foxtrot, Tango, Vienesse Waltz) versus American Rhythm (Rumba, ChaCha, Swing, Mambo & Bolero)?

The reference to "rhythm dancing" has nothing to do with "American Rhythm" but instead to a simple pair of foxtrot/quickstep type dances for basic instruction and crowded settings used in the British tradition. There's "slow rhythm" and "quick rhythm" Figures won't be exactly the same as American social foxtrot, but the intent is comparable, and some variation on the quarter turns type of pattern is to be found in each.

[BallandChange]

Thanks Chris, I thought that it would mean something different. I appreciate your response.

[fascination]

my guess (and I could be wrong) was that joe was just being his usual adorable self ;)

[Joe]

Nope, Chris understood what I meant perfectly.

[kayak]

In my area, social Foxtrot and social 2-step almost blur. The smooth aspect of Foxtrot is lost in favor of rhythm movements. So there aren't many heal leads in the Foxtrot and the beginning 2-steppers aren't very careful about avoiding heal leads. The better dancers are the ones that distinguish the smooth techniques of Foxtrot and the fun challenges of the 2-step rhythm turns. I think it takes some time for dancers to understand why they are different and how they are different.