Following, Technique, Musicality--How to Keep it All Going?

[Peaches]

OK, so I don't know about any of you, but it seems like I can focus on about 2 things (or maybe 3, on a good day) at once, but the rest of it all goes to hell. I can focus on the music and my technique, or following and my technique, or following and the music...but invariable trying to do all of it well means that I end up doing none of it well. Does anyone have any tips for putting it all together? Or is this just a situation where it's going to take time and practice and experience so that more and more can run on autopilot?

[jhpark]

pick one or two things to focus on but rotate them every tanda?

[Lilly_of_the_valley]

OK, so I don't know about any of you, but it seems like I can focus on about 2 things (or maybe 3, on a good day) at once, but the rest of it all goes to hell. I can focus on the music and my technique, or following and my technique, or following and the music...but invariable trying to do all of it well means that I end up doing none of it well. Does anyone have any tips for putting it all together? Or is this just a situation where it's going to take time and practice and experience so that more and more can run on autopilot?

I usually focus on one or two things while practicing. Well, I would not pretend that it is really possible to turn the rest of them off completely or hold my focus on one thing the entire practice session :) but at least I try to prioritize.
Hopefully in the long run the improvement happens, and, yes, more and more can run on autopilot when I am dancing and getting in the zone at a milonga.

I also found out that working on the advanced stuff helps. Some things simply do not happen unless quite a few right habits have already been internalized by the body. There I cannot get away with not-so-good technique or with too much thinking (while on the simplier steps I probably could and have got). Great for improving your dancing overall.

[Steve Pastor]

I don't follow much, although I'm confident enough in doing it that I always offer to do so to let someone feel things from the leader's viewpoint. But, getting to the point of things working without having to be conscious of them is sort of the same for both sides of the embrace.

Reading about all the "fancy moves" that many of you learn makes me think that the bar is being held quite high for many of you.
Many of those beautiful people who are making a living dancing AT have had years of training in various kinds of dance. They make the high energy, high stakes stuff look easy.

I watch all the hot young couples doing their thing even here in Portland at our humble Sunday practica, and I think, OK, wow, finally someone who does that stuff and is actually doing it to the music! And you know, when I almost get boleoed, I think, ... Well, you can guess.

Somewhere along the line (actually, I can pretty much tell you when), I began to accept that I was "good enough". I can also tell you about when I realized that I had been leading in time to the music, using my torso, and getting the responses I wanted from my partner, and I hadn't been thinking about every part of what I had been doing.

I've learned all of these dances to either experience as feeling of satisfaction (tango itself, line dances that were difficult to master, etc), or to have a social outlet and to have fun.

I loved it when a young guy said to me (I think) that I could take lessons to learn the line dances. I no longer care if I do it "right". In fact, I like getting lost. Sometimes I will do something "wrong" just to see how I can get back to where I'm supposed to be.

A few weeks ago someone I had been helping get better said "We should enter a competition". She may have been kidding, but I had to say that I don't much care what judges think about my dancing. If I can enjoy myself when I dance with people who think about the dance the same way I do, or at least act like it, I am happy.

I will never be Pablo Veron. Nor will I ever be Alex Krebs. I don't dance with the "best dancers" here in Portland. I figure if they like what they see, they will give me some kind of sign, and I don't get those vibes. On the other hand, I will on occasion glimpse someone looking my way and smiling as I dance.

It was very, very tough to decide to stop taking lessons. OMG, that's like heresy! But there is a point of diminishing returns to almost every endeavor.

And, I know lots of guys who almost never dance in time to the music, let alone be expressive musically, and they are very popular with the women. Part of it is personality, but part of it is that they don't challenge the women to dance better.

My approach to AT, and now all partner dances, is to concentrate on a very small set of basics that are the core of what makes all of the other things possible. If your partner the leader knows how to use those things, you will have a pretty big vocabulary. If he doesn't, well, you just make the best of it.
I'm very serious when I say that the occasional missed lead, etc, keeps both partners "on their toes" and hones skills of improvising. I don't want perfect partners. Boring!

All of that said, yes you get better the more you do it, as long as you keep trying. Trying, though, is not the same as obsessing.

And now, to destroy any credibility I may have regarding AT, I paraphrase from Hank Williams Jr.'s "Family Tradtion"...
If I'm down in a milonga
Some Porteno's tryin to give me corrections
I'll say leave me alone
I'm dancin all night long
it's a family tradition

Steve
former resident of Martinsburg, WV
maybe that explains it

[Steve Pastor]

Yikes! I'm not done yet. Maybe because I went to an important (to us) neighborhood meeting last night instead of dancing.

Is there any chance that one of the guys you dance with, who you can tell is pretty good, and with whom you have a rapport, would be willing to talk to you about this and give you some feedback? Even at a milonga you could compare notes between dances, or off the floor. I think you will find that different guys will notice different things, but if you are very selective, and they are willing to throw some things at you that you want to improve...
As others wrote, concentrate on one aspect of your dance at a time.
I know that when I dance with people, and find that they don't handle something well, I just don't go there. Since I dance at a practica, if I feel the woman is open, I might ask her to "do something for me".
I really think that partners not communicating which each other, (at least to the limits of the relationship, place, and time) deprives many of us the chance to "learn from our mistakes".

[Joy In Motion]

I remember when I first started learning how to move my hips correctly in salsa. There were three or four aspects of the technique, definitely too many to try to do all at once. So I would only focus on one each night when I went out social dancing. If I tried to do them all at once, I ended up doing none of them, so I kept at it one at a time. It took a little while, but I remember one day all of a sudden my hips just started to move "on their own" and suddenly all of the pieces came together. Now it is second nature and I never think about it.

When I started learning Argentine tango (and now as I venture into other dances now and then), I was lucky enough to have already went through that experience. So I really do believe that you should focus your attention on one thing at a time so you can develop muscle memory. And while you are focusing on something else, your body is still assimilating that other information even when you aren't thinking about it. Like they say about sleeping - your body can actually assimilate new information and habits even as you are resting, so resting from one concept to focus on another is still productive.

Even when you are not actually dancing yourself, just thinking about that concept or watching others dance and seeing how it applies to their dancing or even imagining yourself doing it are great tools. I think your body unconsciously absorbs information; sometimes we just need to get out of the way and not be so hard on ourselves. I have been reading a lot about flow in sports lately and contemplating how it applies to dance, and one concept I like is called "relaxed concentration." It may seem like an oxymoron, but actually it holds the key to relaxing while practicing new concepts so that it begins to feel natural in our body instead of feeling like something foreign that the body must protect itself from.

[Me]

I think there is a lot to the "practice until it is on autopilot" method. I try to leave all thoughts about working technique in the classroom.

The more I think when I dance, the more mistakes I make. When I go out dancing, I must empty my mind from partner to partner. When I pair up with a new partner the first thing I do is focus only on staying balanced and quiet. Even the voice in my head talking about technique has to be quiet. Then, I wait for my partner and sense where his center is traveling. Then depending on the style or the music, I choose one general focus. Maybe I'll focus on my footwork in closed-embrace, or maybe I will concentrate on larger hesitated strides for nuevo... Embellishments just seem to happen after that point. When I think too much my mind is telling my body what to do, and when I think about doing something, invariably my reaction is too slow and my muscles tense.

[Aurora]

I also try to leave any conscious thoughts about technique in the classroom/practica. When out at a milonga, I want to focus on following and musicality. Every once in a while I might consider technique (especially in a moment where my attention is drawn to it), but for the most part I work on getting the technique into my muscle memory so that I don't have to think about it - especially because thinking about it inevitably makes me lose the connection with my partner, the music, basically everything that makes dancing fun!

[Angel HI]

...for the most part I work on getting the technique into my muscle memory so that I don't have to think about it - especially because thinking about it inevitably makes me lose the connection with my partner, the music, basically everything that makes dancing fun!

Of course, this is the goal of every dancer...to not have to think about the technique. But, you did not list 'everything' that makes dancing fun. It has always been one of my goals, as a teacher, to get the learner to the point where they understand that the proper technique is also part of what makes dancing fun. Without the proper technique, one can never feel all that the dance has to offer.

[Aurora]

I should have clarified: As a life-long dancer of many genres (social & others), I am very aware that technique is a necessary part of the success of any dance. However, I have found from experience that no matter what kind of dance I am doing, I need to get to the point where the technique is in my muscle memory before stepping out on stage/onto the social dance floor. If I have to very consciously think about technique the whole time I am dancing, I tend to not only have less fun but also tend to create more problems than I solve (i.e. not listening enough to my partner, tensing up in other parts of my body, etc). So what I meant to say was that you need technique at the milonga, but it needs to not be at the center of your conscious mind.

[Dave Bailey]

OK, so I don't know about any of you, but it seems like I can focus on about 2 things (or maybe 3, on a good day) at once, but the rest of it all goes to hell.
Yes. That's exactly how I feel. You are not alone!

So as a leader, at the moment, I can focus on 2 of (say):
- floorcraft
- leading clearly
- musicality
- technique
- posture
- style

Generally, that order is the order I try to prioritize. So floorcraft is the most important, followed by leading clearly. Somethimes I get musicality in. But everything else is a no-go :(

However, a year ago, I'd have only managed 1-2 of those, rather than 2-3 - so I suspect that, like everything, you get to be consciously competent at some things given enough time.

[Peaches]

Crap! *whine* I want to master them now!! *end whine* :)

[bordertangoman]

Crap! *whine* I want to master them now!! *end whine* :)

Granted; your wish is my command ;)

[bordertangoman]

Yes. That's exactly how I feel. You are not alone!

So as a leader, at the moment, I can focus on 2 of (say):
- floorcraft
- leading clearly
- musicality
- technique
- posture
- style

Generally, that order is the order I try to prioritize. So floorcraft is the most important, followed by leading clearly. Somethimes I get musicality in. But everything else is a no-go :(
.

style and posture are superfluous while dancing they are things you should work on in a practica.

musicality should ALWAYS have 51% of your attention ( or its not dancing)
Leading clearly is more important than floorcraft and you cant have floor craft without a good lead.
Technique comes with practice; but it is better to have good connection with the music and simple technique than good technique and no connection to the music (as a follower friend often complains; "they're just not listening to the music; they don't know its there.")

[Me]

style and posture are superfluous while dancing they are things you should work on in a practica.

I disagree! If I as a follow paid no attention to my posture while dancing with you, you would complain (and have every right to do so) about how heavy I felt, how poor my balance is, how non-existant my follow is... I would make you miserable!

musicality should ALWAYS have 51% of your attention ( or its not dancing)
Leading clearly is more important than floorcraft and you cant have floor craft without a good lead.
Technique comes with practice; but it is better to have good connection with the music and simple technique than good technique and no connection to the music (as a follower friend often complains; "they're just not listening to the music; they don't know its there.")

YES!!! I don't know why after about the four month mark some leads decide they must get fancy. But, this is a problem for follows as well. They go out and buy Comme il Fauts and then proceed to fling wild unlead boleos with dead fish feet, plow through multiple ochos even though only one was led... I could go on and on.

[Peaches]

Could you elaborate on the "dead fish feet" thing? (Seriously. I'm wondering what characteristics you mean by that.)

...heh...

...thinking that even though I got my CiF's when I first started, I refused to wear them for dancing until about a year later, when my other shoes began hurting my feet so badly that they'd ache for days. I just didn't feel like I'd earned the "right" to wear them.

...and how I pretty much refused to do boleos until after the two-year mark...

...still wondering how you go about doing more ochos than what was lead...seems like it would be difficult...

[tangotime]

I disagree! If I as a follow paid no attention to my posture while dancing with you, you would complain (and have every right to do so) about how heavy I felt, how poor my balance is, how non-existant my follow is... I would make you miserable!








Posture and poise determine the whole outcome of all that we dance , as to its "feel " and appearance , no matter the genre; and as much as m/cality is concerned, i would give it a much higher percentage, especially for the accomplished dancer.

After all, is that not the purpose for putting steps to music ? .

[bordertangoman]

I disagree! If I as a follow paid no attention to my posture while dancing with you, you would complain (and have every right to do so) about how heavy I felt, how poor my balance is, how non-existant my follow is...

.

Maybe you missed my point: if you don't have good posture before you start dancing how are you going to get it while you are dancing and if your attention is on your posture then its less on following and the music. So I think you sort it out before you walk onto the dance floor - like you wouldn't put your tango shoes on halfway through a dance would you?
Same goes for posture.


I would make you miserable!
.

you must mean more miserable

[tangotime]

you must mean more miserable



:uplaugh:

[tangotime]

Maybe you missed my point: if you don't have good posture before you start dancing how are you going to get it while you are dancing




The posture and poise for dance should be" assumed " as one takes dance position, as it is not necessarily, in most cases , the same that we adopt during our every day existence .

I believe the more difficult task for most people, is maintaining it during the course of a dance.

[Steve Pastor]

...still wondering how you go about doing more ochos than what was lead...seems like it would be difficult...
I'd be willing to bet that most leaders who have reached the point of consciouness have had the experience of leading an ocho, one ocho, then doing nothing else while their parter continues doing ochos on her own.
I did this once, and my parnter did ohco after ocho as I stood absolutely still. She finally stopped, looked up at me, and said something like, "It doesn't feel like you are leading anything". Exactly.

Dead Fish Feet?
I recently read about one older dancer (a man) who practiced drawing curves on the floor with his feet for hours at a time. How you hold your foot when you do these types of movements, or any movement with the foot or leg, is very important. They either look clumsy, like a dead fish, or a fish flopping around, or they look controlled (but not forced) and elegant.
On shows like DWTS and SYTYCD the judges will often comment on the lines of the dancers. With feet, what part points where helps create the line. And when a foot just seems to be flopping around, there isn't a line. It's not pretty.
For men, I would say the challenge is to make it look elegant while still not looking feminine.

[Dave Bailey]

style and posture are superfluous while dancing they are things you should work on in a practica.
Good thing I don't do them, then :)

musicality should ALWAYS have 51% of your attention ( or its not dancing)
Leading clearly is more important than floorcraft and you cant have floor craft without a good lead.
Sorry, I'd disagree.

To me, floorcraft is most important because it helps to ensure that no harm comes to my partner, myself, or other dancers. Floorcraft is about paying constant attention to surroundings and to other dancers, combined with the willingness to be flexible about every single step, and the ability to change / stop / reverse motion as appropriate.

And sure, a clear lead helps floorcraft, but you can have floorcraft without it.

Or, "First, do no harm".

Technique comes with practice; but it is better to have good connection with the music and simple technique than good technique and no connection to the music (as a follower friend often complains; "they're just not listening to the music; they don't know its there.")
Sounds reasonable.

[tangotime]

.

To me, floorcraft is most important
.




I think the operative word here should be... AS important

[Dave Bailey]

I disagree! If I as a follow paid no attention to my posture while dancing with you, you would complain (and have every right to do so) about how heavy I felt, how poor my balance is, how non-existant my follow is... I would make you miserable!
Fair enough, but to me that stuff is not so vital for leaders.

I could be wrong - like I said, that's more-or-less my order of priorities, I simply mentioned them to agree with the OP that there are multiple different things we should be doing, and that I also am only doing some of them. Once I get reasonably comfortable with some of these, I can hopefully work on the other stuff also.

I guess another approach would be to work on each area specifically in a rotational manner.

...still wondering how you go about doing more ochos than what was lead...seems like it would be difficult...
Hah, if only. There's a whole group of auto-ocho-ers around, sometimes it's just best to sit back and let them get it out of their system. Maybe go for a beer whilst waiting.

[Dave Bailey]

I think the operative word here should be... AS important
Err, nope... I definitely meant "most important" :)

[Peaches]

With feet, what part points where helps create the line. And when a foot just seems to be flopping around, there isn't a line. It's not pretty.Ah, OK. Eesh, something else to think about! ;-)

I'd be willing to bet that most leaders who have reached the point of consciouness have had the experience of leading an ocho, one ocho, then doing nothing else while their parter continues doing ochos on her own

Hah, if only. There's a whole group of auto-ocho-ers around, sometimes it's just best to sit back and let them get it out of their system. Maybe go for a beer whilst waiting. Oh jeez. Now I'm wondering if I do that. God, I hope not. I'll have to corral some of my leader friends and see what they say. (Come to think of it, maybe I'll ask them what things they feel that I need to work on. I've been reluctant to do that in the past--seems like a good way to make someone uncomfortable and putting them on the spot--but maybe I'll give it a go. I hope they'll be honest, but perhaps not brutally so.)

[Me]

Hi Peaches!

Steve beat me to it about the dead fish feet - They just flop! The dancer does not engage their legs from the knees down - It is pretty easy to spot. They don't point their feet, they don't flex their feet, and they certainly don't use the inside or outside edges of their feet. In a boleo, they'll muscle their thigh and fling from the knee down - Absolutely no control and the foot looks asleep. :rolleyes: In other words... it's bad tango! I mentioned the Comme il Fauts because those seem to have the most decidedly painful heels to get clipped with. Takes the skin straight off, even through slacks!

Unled ochos...
Unled ochos are easy! You just throw your hips around and fall backwards, or forwards. Doesn't matter what the guy does. :) If he leads one ocho, surely he means for you to do at least three, right? (That's what the pattern was in class this week - Let's do it!) The man has to either follow you or fall on his face. :)

Probably the most common unled ocho you get Steve would be when you lead the lady to step forward with her right foot, outside to your right, and without the slightest provocation from you, she flips around with an ocho and steps directly into your path (and probably throws in a bad back boleo while she does it.)



There's a whole group of auto-ocho-ers around, sometimes it's just best to sit back and let them get it out of their system. Maybe go for a beer whilst waiting.

LOL!!!

[Peaches]

OK. I'm really not meaning to be argumentative, here, but...but...but...doesn't the embrace get in the way of the ochos? Never mind the leader?

I mean, in the example you give, Me, you mention going outside partner to the guy's right and then going into an ocho...how do you do that? I mean...the guy would have rotated when you stepped around him...you'd have to be dragging him back the way you came. And, that would seem to take some extreme torso/hip dissociation to make that work...or sticking out of one's butt to get the room to do it. ???

[Peaches]

Now I'm really paranoid about this...

And my boleos, but I've been paranoid about them for a while. One set of teachers hated mine, another teacher loved them, my teacher concedes they're not to his liking, but there's nothing wrong with them. Lol. Gotta love tango.

[Steve Pastor]

When woman dance front ochos by themselves, they are obviously not paying attention to the lead. If they take small steps, it doesn't break up the relationship of the two parnters being in front of each other, or at least having their chests parallel, too much.
If the woman takes large steps, the guy can "et her go" and just sort of follw along by rotating his torso to follow her, OR, he can "follow her" by letting his arms move along with her.
In the latter case, she could then turn around an tell him he was "leading with his arms".

Except in extreme cases, lead and follow is a give and take, with the man mostly "leading the discussion". Although I always insist that there are actual physical forces involved, and that it is best to tune into those "feelings", they can vary from barely perceptible to really really hard to ignore.
If someone calls me on "I just did what you led" with a certain attitude, and depending on my mood, etc. they may get back "I was being polite". Really, if we are to respect the musicality of our partners, etc, it can become a very grey thing. That's a good thing if both partners are on the same page.

If in doubt I would say, wait. Or GO, but just once, and always being aware of how your partner is reacting (This is particularly important if you decide you want to dip yourself and might pull your partner over.). If the lead becomes a bit more obvious as you wait, you know that is what was being led.

Regarding boleos, and how to hold your feet, etc. I'd say once you know what looks good (to you) when other people do it, check yourself out in a mirror. If you like what you see, you're good. If you don't like what you see, practice the specific motions and how to point and where to point your foot. Or, ask someone you respect, and might actually tell you the truth, even if it isn't so good.

[Zoopsia59]

Leading clearly is more important than floorcraft and you cant have floor craft without a good lead.

Its true that you need a clear lead for floorcraft to happen, but a good lead does not automatically produce good floorcraft. So I wouldn't say that one is more important than the other. They are too intertwined, or at least SHOULD be. Clear leads right smack into other people are not a good thing. But if you can't give a clear lead, then your follwer may not go where intended which can also produce bad floorcraft.

I think its safe to say that there are more people who have learned to lead clearly without paying attention to proper floorcraft than there are people who are aware that floorcraft is important and don't realize the need for a good lead.

I certainly see quite a few people in our community who meander all over the place or pay little attention to how their use of space and movement affects other dancers

So i think paying conscious attention to floorcraft is more vital since its more likely to be ignored.

Floorcraft also involves paying attention to the floorcraft (or lack therefof) of others. I would rather that my partner protect me from injury by doing something undancelike (like picking me up to move me quickly if he has to) than have him allow me to get kicked by a badly placed boleo simply because he doesn't know how to "properly" lead me to safety!

[Zoopsia59]

Could you elaborate on the "dead fish feet" thing? (Seriously. I'm wondering what characteristics you mean by that.)

I'm betting she means that look of having the feet flopping around from the ankle with no energy continuing through them to the tip. I hate the way that looks too.

The problem I have is keeping things un-tensed, yet energized. Relaxed enough to be easily led without being so relaxed as to be "floppy". I tend towards an excess of tension, rather than floppiness.

[Zoopsia59]

...still wondering how you go about doing more ochos than what was lead...seems like it would be difficult...

Well its not really the leader's job to PREVENT the follower from leaving the embrace or relative position. Its the follower's job to stay with the leader. So if she insists on doing her own thing, it really shouldn't be the leader's responsibility to "get her under control".

I've had followers take off doing ocho's when I've led only 1 or 2, and I think I related a story from someone else of a student who ocho'ed her way backwards right into a wall. Beginner followers get so excited when they actually recognize a lead in tango, that they just do it. And then they keep going until they feel a different lead to stop them rather than recognizing that stillness is also a lead.

I was a beginner follower at one point too (as were we all?) and remember well that elation when I actually picked up on a lead, and the excitement it produced.

I think this is all a result of the unfortunate tendency to teach STEPS to folllowers rather than how to follow, and what it means to follow rather than recognize a step.

[Zoopsia59]

...my parnter did ohco after ocho as I stood absolutely still..

Yep... that was the experience I had also... She just took off. I say "she" but its been several "shes". Since I learned to follow first, I knew that she wasn't supposed to do that, but I had no idea how to get her to stop except to let go of her completely (this was in a class, so it didn't present a collision danger or bad milonga form)

[Zoopsia59]

[quote=Dave Bailey;552371]Fair enough, but to me that stuff is not so vital for leaders. "

(posture) Posture in a leader is vital because its hard to give a clear lead without it. It also makes for a less pleasant experience for the follower. I really hate dancing with leaders who have poor tango posture (this usually entails collapsing the chest and hunching the shoulders while looking at the floor)

However, I dont' think posture is more important than floorcraft. People who have bad posture aren't the best to dance with, but people with bad floorcraft are downright dangerous.

Auto-ocho'ers... Haha.. Love the term!

[Zoopsia59]

[quote=Me;552377] In a boleo, they'll muscle their thigh and fling from the knee down ->>

Which is even more ironic when you consider that neither the thigh, knee, or foot is really the impetus for the boleo! It comes from a springing back reaction in the hip based on twisting, not flinging or muscling! As one teacher expressed it... you don't DO a boleo. A boleo HAPPENS. If you have to DO a boleo, either it wasn't led right, or you're trying too hard.

<<Probably the most common unled ocho you get Steve would be when you lead the lady to step forward with her right foot, outside to your right, and without the slightest provocation from you, she flips around with an ocho and steps directly into your path (and probably throws in a bad back boleo while she does it.)>>

The most common one I get with my limted leader skills are excessive back ocho's after I led one samll one as a connection to something. The really annoying thing is that I don't lead "in-place" ocho's very much to begin with. I lead them traveling. So when I stop and she takes off with twisty ochos, she's doing something that I not only DIDN"T lead, but probably WOULDN"T lead!

[Zoopsia59]

OK. I'm really not meaning to be argumentative, here, but...but...but...doesn't the embrace get in the way of the ochos? Never mind the leader?

the leader is not in the way for the follower to do back ochos or even front ochos in place. The embrace is not a hindrance in an open embrace position or if the follower pulls away from a close embrace position (as I said, its not the leader's responsibility to prevent the follower from changing the embrace)

[Peaches]

Ah, OK. So the embrace is being distorted and/or the leader is sort of taking the role of the follower for a bit and just going along with things for a bit. It's all coming together now, thank you.

[dchester]

Yep... that was the experience I had also... She just took off. I say "she" but its been several "shes". Since I learned to follow first, I knew that she wasn't supposed to do that, but I had no idea how to get her to stop except to let go of her completely (this was in a class, so it didn't present a collision danger or bad milonga form)
It's happened a few times with me as well. The first thing I do is stand still and see if they pick up on it (and they usually don't). Then I gradually tense up my frame until they figure out that something is wrong. I think it's something that a lot of new followers go through. They get excited because they feel they can finally do them well, and . . .

The real trick is to get them to wait for the lead, without killing their enthusiasm.

[bastet]

Usually what I do if a follower "goes off on their own" is become still and try to lead weight changes in place to reconnect. I try not to tense up my embrace because I have had that done to me before when I missed a lead for some reason and to me, it feels as if I am being punished for missing something and that the lead feels as if he must "strangle me" in to place, since every bit of tension you add to your embrace often conveys itself as an emotional response (which to some degree, it is - it comes across as frustration generally). So, instead, the first thing I try, first and foremost, is to go back to "change weight in place". It feels like dance movement (because it is) yet also serves my purpose (trying to get things back in harmony where I can lead something else) without sending a big red buzzer to the follow that they have "done something wrong".

[bastet]

Now I'm really paranoid about this...

And my boleos, but I've been paranoid about them for a while. One set of teachers hated mine, another teacher loved them, my teacher concedes they're not to his liking, but there's nothing wrong with them. Lol. Gotta love tango.

Well- that's a hard one...when I first tried boleos after dancing for a few months, I had a uncomplimentary comment on mine. (Granted, I'd had zero instruction at that point ans was just trying to do them from a fellow student explaining them to me)...I worked so hard on them after that. Four sets of classes with 3 sets of master teachers. Some of them had a slightly different way of doing them than others. Nuevo style- wherein the follow rotates her whole body away and and on the rebound the boleos come out looking a little like a ballet attitude, and traditional style with the thigh and knee closed method, letting just the hip go and not also the torso. So if you have had classes in both methods and are doing it one way and not the other, chances are the person who liked yours does them your way and the person who didn't maybe does them the other....that's one thought anyway...

My guess is keep working them til either you 1) are happy with them 2) don't get comments or corrections from teachers 3) get repeated compliments while dancing (see #1 :D).

My general method for anything I learn in tango is if I can get at least 2 different teachers (or masters) to agree on something I have a question about technqiue-wise, then I file that away as my "most likely option" for a particular thing and try to apply that to what I do.

[dchester]

Usually what I do if a follower "goes off on their own" is become still and try to lead weight changes in place to reconnect. I try not to tense up my embrace because I have had that done to me before when I missed a lead for some reason and to me, it feels as if I am being punished for missing something and that the lead feels as if he must "strangle me" in to place, since every bit of tension you add to your embrace often conveys itself as an emotional response (which to some degree, it is - it comes across as frustration generally). So, instead, the first thing I try, first and foremost, is to go back to "change weight in place". It feels like dance movement (because it is) yet also serves my purpose (trying to get things back in harmony where I can lead something else) without sending a big red buzzer to the follow that they have "done something wrong".
For me, doing weight changes hasn't worked to stop the ocho machines, although it can help in other situations. The key thing (for me) is to gradually tense up the frame, and not do a strangle hold (it doesn't take that much, usually).

;)

I suppose it could be viewed as frustration, but mostly it's done to bring awareness to the follower that she is not following (and it's definately not a punishment).

[Peaches]

Well- that's a hard one...when I first tried boleos after dancing for a few months, I had a uncomplimentary comment on mine. (Granted, I'd had zero instruction at that point ans was just trying to do them from a fellow student explaining them to me)...I worked so hard on them after that. Four sets of classes with 3 sets of master teachers. Some of them had a slightly different way of doing them than others. Nuevo style- wherein the follow rotates her whole body away and and on the rebound the boleos come out looking a little like a ballet attitude, and traditional style with the thigh and knee closed method, letting just the hip go and not also the torso. So if you have had classes in both methods and are doing it one way and not the other, chances are the person who liked yours does them your way and the person who didn't maybe does them the other....that's one thought anyway...

My guess is keep working them til either you 1) are happy with them 2) don't get comments or corrections from teachers 3) get repeated compliments while dancing (see #1 :D).

My general method for anything I learn in tango is if I can get at least 2 different teachers (or masters) to agree on something I have a question about technqiue-wise, then I file that away as my "most likely option" for a particular thing and try to apply that to what I do.Lol. I like your way of thinking.

In my case, I'd been incredibly resistant to doing them at all. And then I had a lesson with a set of visiting teachers, and we spent the entire time working on them. And I never got it to the point that they liked it. (I didn't feel much of a change, either.)

Two days (or so) later, I had a lesson with a different visiting teacher, and he decided he loved them and wasn't going to touch them.

My teacher thought they were OK, but said he could tell he didn't teach me how to do them, but that there was nothing wrong. 6 months later of doing them the best I could, and all of a sudden I did something differently (I had gotten every so slightly behind in the following somewhere) and it just...felt...beautiful. Good, sharp snap, very powerful, very fast, and effortless. I think it was a difference between trying to make them happen (and generate the speed and power through muscles--no comments from the peanut gallery, please, regarding lack of musculature), versus letting it go until the absolute last second and letting it happen. I'm content with it.

Now, I just need to work on getting my right leg to do them (my automatic reaction is to tense for god knows what reason), and doing them slowly and with my foot on the floor. If it's not one thing, it's another, right? :rolleyes:

[Dave Bailey]

Now I'm really paranoid about this...
Well, to be fair, I only really encountered a lot of auto-ocho-ing in my first year of learning - much less so now. Which, of course, indicates that it was largely a lack of clarity and confidence in my lead which allowed such "interpretation".

Or, in other words, it was largely my fault.

Now, I think I'd be more able to detect and prevent this sort of thing.

[Angel HI]

Though there might be some merit in that, Dave, I am going to disagree in totality. I have encountered recently an entire city-full of these auto-ochoers...so badly so that there is a well known joke about it, and a nickname for them. Understanding that it is not completely their fault (they are obviously being taught by the when I do this, you do that method), even I can not always prevent them from doing their that 4 or 5 times when they think they've received the appropriate "Go!" I just wait until their done...goofing...then continue. After several times of noticing my pause, they get it, and quit doing it....


until next week.

[bastet]

Lol. I like your way of thinking.

In my case, I'd been incredibly resistant to doing them at all. And then I had a lesson with a set of visiting teachers, and we spent the entire time working on them. And I never got it to the point that they liked it. (I didn't feel much of a change, either.)

Two days (or so) later, I had a lesson with a different visiting teacher, and he decided he loved them and wasn't going to touch them.

My teacher thought they were OK, but said he could tell he didn't teach me how to do them, but that there was nothing wrong. 6 months later of doing them the best I could, and all of a sudden I did something differently (I had gotten every so slightly behind in the following somewhere) and it just...felt...beautiful. Good, sharp snap, very powerful, very fast, and effortless. I think it was a difference between trying to make them happen (and generate the speed and power through muscles--no comments from the peanut gallery, please, regarding lack of musculature), versus letting it go until the absolute last second and letting it happen. I'm content with it.

Now, I just need to work on getting my right leg to do them (my automatic reaction is to tense for god knows what reason), and doing them slowly and with my foot on the floor. If it's not one thing, it's another, right? :rolleyes:

yeah..one leg is always harder than the other! I still have some trouble in the front right boleo...my other half says my obliques are too tight and so I have trouble with the extra rotation on the right front.

One master I had classes on this with recently had everyone, guys and gals, do something like 2 entire songs of boleos standing on their own...front and back, both legs....the "that'll-teach-'em-not-to-use-their-partner-as-a-crutch" method....I was largely happy with my boleos at this point but don't like to miss a chance for extra info from a good teacher (so that makes 5 classes on them in the last 2 years or so) and it sure did give my less-used leg a workout!

[bastet]

Well, to be fair, I only really encountered a lot of auto-ocho-ing in my first year of learning - much less so now. Which, of course, indicates that it was largely a lack of clarity and confidence in my lead which allowed such "interpretation".

Or, in other words, it was largely my fault.

Now, I think I'd be more able to detect and prevent this sort of thing.

coulda' been either or both....that seems to be the case often enough when people are first starting out....usually ends up being a little of both making everything seem a lot worse! Mixing oil and water and expecting to get salad dressing!

[bastet]

oops= posted something in the wrong place!

[Zoopsia59]

Usually what I do if a follower "goes off on their own" is become still and try to lead weight changes in place to reconnect.

go back to "change weight in place". It feels like dance movement (because it is) yet also serves my purpose (trying to get things back in harmony where I can lead something else) without sending a big red buzzer to the follow that they have "done something wrong".

Ooo! Good idea! I'll try that next time!

[Zoopsia59]

My general method for anything I learn in tango is if I can get at least 2 different teachers (or masters) to agree on something I have a question about technqiue-wise, then I file that away as my "most likely option" for a particular thing and try to apply that to what I do.

:uplaugh:

Getting 2 teachers to agree! You're funny!

But yes, that seems a good strategy.

Rebecca Shulman also teachers that the follower always has the perogative to keep her foot low (possibly even on the floor) while doing boleos if she feels uncomfortable with the amount of space she might have.

But I've had leaders complain when I didn't let my leg go UP.

Generally, you don't see alot of high boleos (epsecially the open "attitude" type used in nuevo) in the crowded milongas in BA and they are considered by some to be bad "salon" form.

I've had strangers lead high "inline" back boleos and the last thing I'm going to do when dancing with a new leader is let my leg fly up high behind me where I have no idea of what's back there. There are just too many people who don't take into account the amount of room the follower might need (especially considering the foreshortening effect created by the angle of the leaders view of what's directly behind the follower).

With a leader who's level of floorcraft I know, I might do an inline high boleo, but frankly , I just don't think they have much place at a regular milonga unless attendance is really sparse.

There's one guy in our community who always leads them when dancing with a certain follower. I never see him leading them with anyone else. It makes me wonder who's really the problem there? No one else will do them with him? Or she does more than he leads?

But at one event on a tiny dance floor which as as crowded as any BA milonga, he led her to do them so her leg went up in the aisle between tables around the dance floor. I was horrified! What if someone had suddenly stood up at the table?

I guess my point is that in America, boleos of all types are over-emphasized and over-used. They way some people act, you'd think boleos are the pinnacle of what you are trying to perfect in tango!

[Zoopsia59]

Well, to be fair, I only really encountered a lot of auto-ocho-ing in my first year of learning - much less so now. Which, of course, indicates that it was largely a lack of clarity and confidence in my lead which allowed such "interpretation".

Or, in other words, it was largely my fault.

Now, I think I'd be more able to detect and prevent this sort of thing.

I think its a combination of both. When you were a beginning leader, you were most likely dancing with beginning followers. So you each needed to learn more in order to prevent this sort of thing.

[bordertangoman]

:uplaugh:
Rebecca Shulman also teachers that the follower always has the perogative to keep her foot low (possibly even on the floor) while doing boleos if she feels uncomfortable with the amount of space she might have. !

I feel the quality of my partners boleo rather than see; and its done with a nicely loose leg its easy to read. I would agree with RS that boleos should be kept low unless you're on a fairly empty dance floor.

On a couple of occaisions I've taken a boleo (as in taking a bullet) to protect either my partner or someone else's


:I've had strangers lead high "inline" back boleos and the last thing I'm going to do when dancing with a new leader is let my leg fly up high behind me where I have no idea of what's back there. There are just too many people who don't take into account the amount of room the follower might need (especially considering the foreshortening effect created by the angle of the leaders view of what's directly behind the follower).

With a leader who's level of floorcraft I know, I might do an inline high boleo, but frankly , I just don't think they have much place at a regular milonga unless attendance is really sparse. !

I agreee with this I just dont lead them as you never know how high your partner's leg is going to go.



:I guess my point is that in America, boleos of all types are over-emphasized and over-used. They way some people act, you'd think boleos are the pinnacle of what you are trying to perfect in tango!

Arent they? if you acheive loose legs then the quality of the tango lifts to another realm...

[dchester]

:uplaugh:

Getting 2 teachers to agree! You're funny!

But yes, that seems a good strategy.

Rebecca Shulman also teachers that the follower always has the perogative to keep her foot low (possibly even on the floor) while doing boleos if she feels uncomfortable with the amount of space she might have.

But I've had leaders complain when I didn't let my leg go UP.
I've come to the opinion that every "expert" has their own philosophy on how tango should be done, and thus I started working on what my philosophy is (even though I'm no expert).

How my philosophy applies to boleos, is that I am simply leading the pivots, and as long as the follower does the pivots, I am happy. Thus she can do the boleo however she wants, or not at all (as I view it to be simply an embellishment on the pivots).

I just try to lead where to go and when, and it's the follower's job to decide how to do it (whether to embellish it, or how much). I really have enough to worry about when leading, without being concerned about how high the follower lifted her leg.

[bastet]

I've come to the opinion that every "expert" has their own philosophy on how tango should be done, and thus I started working on what my philosophy is (even though I'm no expert).

How my philosophy applies to boleos, is that I am simply leading the pivots, and as long as the follower does the pivots, I am happy. Thus she can do the boleo however she wants, or not at all (as I view it to be simply an embellishment on the pivots).

I just try to lead where to go and when, and it's the follower's job to decide how to do it (whether to embellish it, or how much). I really have enough to worry about when leading, without being concerned about how high the follower lifted her leg.

it's always been my understanding as well that the actual "lift" part is in control of the follower interms of energy received. So if a leader leads me what I can tell is supposed to be a "high" boleo with some energy and I choose not to do it, well, that's my choice to damp it down. I don't agree with the converse though, if a leader is knowingly leading a small, low energy boleo and not trying to get the leg to go up and the follow does it anyway...that's another problem altogether- auto-boleos, if you will!

[bastet]

I've come to the opinion that every "expert" has their own philosophy on how tango should be done, and thus I started working on what my philosophy is (even though I'm no expert).

How my philosophy applies to boleos, is that I am simply leading the pivots, and as long as the follower does the pivots, I am happy. Thus she can do the boleo however she wants, or not at all (as I view it to be simply an embellishment on the pivots).

I just try to lead where to go and when, and it's the follower's job to decide how to do it (whether to embellish it, or how much). I really have enough to worry about when leading, without being concerned about how high the follower lifted her leg.

yes- that's why when I can get to unrelated masters who aren't teaching together or even at the same worksop to agree on something I ask about...I tend to take that to heart.

So if I ask the question to one master and get an answer that I put "on the burner" and then a month later get a similar answer at some other event or lesson from another one...and a third confirmation form yet another...well, in my book it's a minor miracle (!!) and there must be something to it worth pondering. This is my general method for sorting through my own philosphy.

[Steve Pastor]

No, boleos are not the pinnacle of tango. And to me, watching a roomful of people practice boloes on their own is.... just not right.
If you are learning Agentine Tango as a social dance. As a partner dance.
(This is not the same as practicing how to hold/point your foot when doing a boleo.)

I was attracted to AT by some of the same things that attract many other people. First it was the dancing and music in "The Tango Lesson". But, when I took my first lesson, what made me go back was the feeling of the dance.
Sure, sure, if you like the feeling of leading boleos,etc, go for it. Knock yourself out.
And, there is really nothing new about the vast majority of what people are now calling "nuevo".
For all the boleos I see, led, or unled, not 1 in 100 have anything to do with the music. Now, when you hit an appropriate place in the music when you lead/execute that boleo, I will definately notice.

The whole thing is just indicative of how the connection between the two partners, the music, and good basic technique is sacrificed for an emphasis on "showy" moves.
But, again, if that's where you want to go, or where you are, fine with me.
Meanwhile, I think that woman over there looks like she is into connection with her partner. I think I'll try to catch her eye.

[Peaches]

Yes, Steve, I know how you feel about boleos. And about connection, and nuevo (and it's lack of connection for you).

I'm not arguing that they're always appropriate for a social floor, or always done well with the music. Then again, the vast majority of what I see and feel led isn't expressive of the music. I've come to regard actual musicality as something of a bonus.

That said, I find boleos (and other quote, unquote fancy, showy, nuevo things) to be an interesting and useful application and extension of basic technique. As such, they make for a useful thing to learn and work the technique of. A boleo, for instance, requires a free leg and hip, good tone in the core, delayed weight transfer and plenty of other things I'm sure I'm forgetting. The same could be said for other "fancy" things.

I fail to see why you have an issue with people practicing boleos solo. Would you have the same issue with people practicing walking solo? As in, is it the boloes you have an issue with, or the solo practicing? It's a useful exercise, as Bastet (?) said, for working on technique independent of the aid of a partner for balance. Certainly, just as it can be useful to practice any number of other steps on one's one, individual practice of boleos can be useful, as well?

No, of course they're not the "pinnacle" of tango. But they do require good fundamental technique, and highlight the lack thereof in ways that other steps don't. Which, of course, makes it all the more interesting to go back and apply that new-found technique (assuming one's boleos or other Fancy Move has improved) to the basic steps again.

[Steve Pastor]

Actually, if people practiced walking with a partner, rather than alone, I think they would learn more about the relationship between the leader and the follower more quickly.
For instance, if women relied more on the leader to give them some of the energy that facilitates walking backward, they would learn to not take a step on their own, or even "move away from the connection" because they are moving on their own.

Another thing women have to eventually unlearn to some extent is the reaching out with the leg that is practiced when walking backwards alone. Far too often, this is so imprinted that the leg/foot reaches out and pulls the woman's center away from the man's, weakening the connection and requiring the man to hold her in place.
Again, I think this would happen less often if people walked together as a couple, rather than apart.

Likewise, if people practice boleos together, the relationship between the movement of the leader, and that of the follower, and how the one motion sets and creates up the resultant "whipping" movement of the boleo, both partners would be further along.
Here, the woman learns that the leader gives her the energy and the reversing of direction that creates the boleo, rather than the woman using her own "muscle power" to create the motion.
As someone had written already, adding to that energy is appropriate, if you can sense that your partner has given you a "let er rip" sort of impluse. But I think it should not happen independent of the music.
And leading boleos well is not so easy either.

"But they do require good fundamental technique, and highlight the lack thereof in ways that other steps don't."
I guess that I would say that many, many, dancers have bad techinique that shows up way before you get to the difficulty level of boleos. At least that is what I feel. And many of the dancers who do have "good technique" don't direct it to the partnership.

I am usually pleased when a partner fires off a rare unled boleo to something in the music, and doesn't disrupt the lead. So I am not blanket condeming them. But I do agree that they are way over emphasized, especially when they are taught primarily as a thing that can be done independently.

[Zoopsia59]

just as it can be useful to practice any number of other steps on one's one, individual practice of boleos can be useful, as well?

they do require good fundamental technique, and highlight the lack thereof in ways that other steps don't. Which, of course, makes it all the more interesting to go back and apply that new-found technique (assuming one's boleos or other Fancy Move has improved) to the basic steps again.

I agree. Practicing on one's own is extremely valuable, just as individual musicians in a symphony don't limit their practice to only what occurs with the entire orchestra playing.

You also have a good point about the different elements of technique required to execute a proper boleo and how boleos are good practice for those elements.

Attempting the "next level up" stuff is always a good way to develop better skill at your actual level. As a skater, I could easily do big high waltz jumps (the easiest jump) But I could also get away with landing them incorrectly until I started tagging a loop jump on afterwards. And not landing the waltz correctly means you'll probably never be in the right position to complete an axle. Attempting a Lutz helps you really break down the mechanics of the Flip, which is easier.

But you can't add the Loop if you haven't learned it yet, and you certainly don't try to learn the loop (or the axle!) BEFORE you learn the waltz. So you actually have to get to the level of learning a loop on its own, and the "next level up" is to combine them. That's when you realize you have to work more on your waltz jump which was the thing you thought you knew. (probably have to work more on the loop too, but that isn't what comes as a surprise)

This need to go back and refine technique of the previous stage is what no one ever seems to want to do even though its an inherant part of almost all learning in any subject. The boleo is not "beginner" level stuff any more than loop jumps are beginner level skating. Boleos shouldn't be taught in beginner level classes because everyone gets all het up about doing them and doesn't do them with the proper technique anyway.

Then later they have to go back and relearn them, which they are resistant to doing because they think they are now an "advanced" dancer because they've been doing boleos for a year. What they are actually having to relearn is some basic technique that the boleo uses that they never got exposed to BEFORE they learned the boleo. But progress is never a constant forward progression. There's always some fallback and reworking to do.

Too much that is taught in beginner level classes (around my area) is stuff that people shouldn't be doing at all until they've mastered some basics to a certain level. But they all see the shows, and they want to learn the fancy stuff. So teachers and studios give the buyers what they want in order to make a successful business rather than good dancers.

[Dave Bailey]

I think its a combination of both. When you were a beginning leader, you were most likely dancing with beginning followers. So you each needed to learn more in order to prevent this sort of thing.
Sure, that sounds reasonable.

I've got a theory that auto-ocho-ing (or, for that matter, auto boleo / giro / anything - ing) is a function of thinking too much about sequences - or being taught too much in sequences.

[Peaches]

Attempting the "next level up" stuff is always a good way to develop better skill at your actual level. As a skater, I could easily do big high waltz jumps (the easiest jump) But I could also get away with landing them incorrectly until I started tagging a loop jump on afterwards. And not landing the waltz correctly means you'll probably never be in the right position to complete an axle. Attempting a Lutz helps you really break down the mechanics of the Flip, which is easier.

But you can't add the Loop if you haven't learned it yet, and you certainly don't try to learn the loop (or the axle!) BEFORE you learn the waltz. So you actually have to get to the level of learning a loop on its own, and the "next level up" is to combine them. That's when you realize you have to work more on your waltz jump which was the thing you thought you knew. (probably have to work more on the loop too, but that isn't what comes as a surprise)
Exactly. And this is why, for me, I find it pointless (and possibly even counterproductive, after a certain point) to hammer away at fundamental technique with the intention of getting it "perfect" before moving up to anything else. First of all, I get bored easily. Second, no matter how "perfect" something gets to be, as I learn new stuff (even if it's above what I can accomplish with good technique) it puts the previous stuff in a different context. What was "perfect" isn't anymore, or now I want to refine. No, I may not be to the level of the new stuff, but that stretch to get it will improve the things where I am now, and really show me what I need to work on. And, I'm sure that as I progress, what seems like an improvement now will need to be tweaked/re-learned/undone in the future. Sometimes, I just need to do something badly for a while until I "get it," or until I've learned enough other stuff to fill out my understanding of the fundamental.

In the meantime, of course, my boleos look like crap. :-) And my adornments are all dead-fish-foot-ed. Well, the left foot adornments at least. (My right foot I can make do pretty, or at least quasi-pretty things. My left foot is stoopid.)

[bastet]

My left foot is stoopid.)

Ha ha....that was funny! :p

I think I am the opposite...my left foot is stronger on adornments than my right (and also does the better boleos)...does that mean I am right brained and you are left brained?

Didn't know we were going to open Pandora's box on boleos! To which my answer is always going to be...gotta try things multiple ways to get a good understanding of it.

[Peaches]

Meh...I figure, it's "my" thread...I can hijack it if I want to! :p Actually, most AT threads seem to meander a lot. Probably because I'm posting in them a lot, and I tend to meander in my thinking and communication. (I blame DH.)

I don't know what the deal is with my left foot/leg--it just will not look pretty. Drawing circles is kind of funny--they definitely don't come out as circles, that's for damn sure. I don't even know what shape I'd call them--probably something that would take an advanced mathematical degree to come up with an equation for. I doubt there's a pi involved anywhere, though.

[Gssh]

I fail to see why you have an issue with people practicing boleos solo. Would you have the same issue with people practicing walking solo? As in, is it the boloes you have an issue with, or the solo practicing? It's a useful exercise, as Bastet (?) said, for working on technique independent of the aid of a partner for balance. Certainly, just as it can be useful to practice any number of other steps on one's one, individual practice of boleos can be useful, as well?

I personally have an issue with the solo practice part. I see especially boleos as a product of energy transfer, and in my experience many followers who practice them on their own just feel slightly unpleasant to me as a leader. A well followed boleo has a very distinct rubberbandy, smooth and at the same time snappy feel. Lets take the mechanically simplest one: the in-line boleo: The follower "tries" to do a backstep, but is interrupted in the middle. The leg and hip are relaxed, and so they continue moving even after the core has stopped moving - just a pendulum. Now why did the core stop moving? In dance: Because of the embrace - the backwards movement was slowed down, reversed a tiny bit for additional energy and then stopped. If i practice solo i can't get this impulse going without using the other leg/other muscles - and that generates a (IMO) a very different movement quality and energy. I really don't like it when i can feel a follower interrupting the energy of the boleo itself and doing her own boleo like thing instead.

I guess what i really want to say is that when practicing alone i don't think it is possible to really practice walking, or ochos, or sacadas, or boleos. I try to remeber that i am building attributes and balance when i do these exercises, but i am not actually dancing. The whole auto-ocho is a good example for that: "Practicing ochos" is good for balance, and dissociation, and good form, but it is not an ocho. A ocho only exist in the embrace, with 2 people. People who confuse the exercise with the real thing are not fun to dance with, and the same seems for me true for other exercises, like doing moulinettes. My first reaction to hearing about practicing boleos is being puzzled - boleos are for me one of the moves that are the most characterized by how energy is exchanged between leader and follower - thats what makes them exciting - inline boleos are one of my favourite moves to follow. The feeling when the leg just suddenly flies around, and the energy from the leader are just fun it is somehow very freeing- i find saccadas in comparison pretty boring to follow - sometimes almost annoying (i feel interrupted) (i like leading sacadas more than leading boleos, though- go figure :) ).

Now that i have ranted: What do you actually do to practice boleos? The key seems to me to stay relaxed and let the momentum work / guide the momentum subtly when the leader interrupts a already started motion?

Gssh

[Peaches]

There are definitely some things which can only be practiced with a partner. I won't disagree with that. But some things can, and should, IMO, be practiced solo.

For boleos: The biggest thing for me, is practicing letting movement come from my hip and letting the leg relax and keeping the foot pretty. I do this by standing next to something to hold on to (eventually I'll graduate to standing without steadying myself) and swinging my free leg forward and back...and forward and back...and forward and back. Core tight, balanced well, movement from hip, relaxed leg. Sometimes, but rarely, since I don't like to use my shoes on the floor at home, I'll "brace" myself against the counter or some such and practice the change of direction that way...but I suck at that.

For other things: I practice walking around by myself. Extend leg starting with the hip, transfer weight, collect. Lather, rinse, repeat. I'll try out minor embellishments this way, too. Step, tap behind, step, tap behind. I make sure that my posture is good, that I'm arriving over my leg completely (and yet not too far forward or back), that I'm using the inside edge of my foot and rolling through my foot correctly.

I sometimes (not as much as I should) practice ochos. Or, in deference to your feeling that they're not ochos, but ocho-type exercises, I'll practice ocho exercise. I practice using the trailing foot, using the muscles of my inner thighs, extending the leg again, arriving over the foot, controlling my axis, yada yada yada.

I practice molinetes...delay the weight transfer, control, delay, control, etc.

You're right. It's not really dancing. Arguably, it's practicing dancing. But practicing solo is useful for working on technique. And especially useful for learning to control your axis, keeping your balance, and generally learning to feel your own body. After all, even if you're dancing apilado, you still need to be able to control your axis, even if it's not upright.

[Peaches]

Attempting the "next level up" stuff is always a good way to develop better skill at your actual level.

Interesting that we've been having this discussion in the AT forum, and something similar is going on over in ballroom. This quote:

Now in the case we have here, I think it is more important the beginning stages to choose a few moves (pick 5 per dance) and focus all of your attention on understanding the basic concepts within the framework of these 5 moves. I think that if the goal of the daner is to learn the technique of how to dance the fewer moves you know, the faster you will improve. caught my attention b/c it seems to be so different from what you and I have found, Zoo.

Edit to add: Angel, if you're around and have the time, could you comment on this difference? Is there something intrinsic to the different disciplines which would account for it, and make the best approach for one different than the best approach for the other? Or is there something I'm/we're missing here that you see?

[bastet]

Interesting that we've been having this discussion in the AT forum, and something similar is going on over in ballroom. This quote:

caught my attention b/c it seems to be so different from what you and I have found, Zoo.

Edit to add: Angel, if you're around and have the time, could you comment on this difference? Is there something intrinsic to the different disciplines which would account for it, and make the best approach for one different than the best approach for the other? Or is there something I'm/we're missing here that you see?

That's something I do every now and then also- taking just a few concepts and really trying to understnand them and work them from the ground up. Doing things like this (even at other levels than beginner) will surely help you have ah-ha moments.

[bastet]

Exactly. And this is why, for me, I find it pointless (and possibly even counterproductive, after a certain point) to hammer away at fundamental technique with the intention of getting it "perfect" before moving up to anything else. First of all, I get bored easily. Second, no matter how "perfect" something gets to be, as I learn new stuff (even if it's above what I can accomplish with good technique) it puts the previous stuff in a different context.

Too true. this was a huge rant for me at one point...continuing ot beat head on wall is counterproductive for many people, I think. Often, I have to move on to something else and come back, even if it is something "too hard" for me at the moment...then when I go back to the other thing, it doesn't seem so bad.

I've had something similar going on with belly-dance (I'm just a beginner). But, for whatever reason, I can't get my cuban motion out of the hip movement in vertical figure eights (because of all that ballroom)...so I've moved on to a different concept that is probably technically harder, but which helps me break the previous idea down because I have to use part of it and now I am getting marginally better at the first problem...best go sign up for beginner class again, I missed too many due to work! :rolleyes:

[bordertangoman]

I

I guess what i really want to say is that when practicing alone i don't think it is possible to really practice walking, or ochos, or sacadas, or boleos. I try to remeber that i am building attributes and balance when i do these exercises, but i am not actually dancing. The whole auto-ocho is a good example for that: "Practicing ochos" is good for balance, and dissociation, and good form, but it is not an ocho. A ocho only exist in the embrace, with 2 people. People who confuse the exercise with the real thing are not fun to dance with, and the same seems for me true for other exercises, like doing moulinettes. My first reaction to hearing about practicing boleos is being puzzled - boleos are for me one of the moves that are the most characterized by how energy is exchanged between leader and follower - thats what makes them exciting - inline boleos are one of my favourite moves to follow. The feeling when the leg just suddenly flies around, and the energy from the leader are just fun it is somehow very freeing- i find saccadas in comparison pretty boring to follow - sometimes almost annoying (i feel interrupted) (i like leading sacadas more than leading boleos, though- go figure :) ).

Now that i have ranted: What do you actually do to practice boleos? The key seems to me to stay relaxed and let the momentum work / guide the momentum subtly when the leader interrupts a already started motion?

Gssh

I have to disagree with this. It is esential to practice; if you can't get your leg relaxed to do a boleo on your own how on earth ii it going to happen when with someone else. Getting followers to relax their legs takes time and some never get it. I try all sorts of exercises and get them to understand what it feels like to feel someone else's leg which is relaxed. some people are just stiff and spiky people.

Most people need far more practice than lessons; I can do ochos better than most followers but I don't dance them as I'm a leader. I people dont practice whether on their own on with a partner how can they hope to improve.
Until you have a solid axis there there is every reason to do all these things on your own first and get them to work with a partner then becomes easier.

The auto-ocho come from people who dance salsa or another dance. and are used to fixed fast moves

[Heather2007]

Or is this just a situation where it's going to take time and practice and experience so that more and more can run on autopilot?

You know what? That's just it. Time. I recall being shown how to tie my shoelaces, my school tie and recall the huge frustration of learning. Later, when I achieved the art of a perfect bow/knot it was as if had never been instructed to do so. Same with the triathlon of tango. Technique together with Musicality just happens when dancing with a good lead (ie. one who possesses bundles of patience/sense of humour) that 'allows' you to just Follow. When technique and musicality is in assembly then you are naturally following. T+M=F. There is so, so, so much at the outset of learning but in time you may find (I did anyway) as you start to chop away at all those paragraphs that were thrown at you from the Akashic Record of Tango Dancing and 'make it your own' (I cannot stress that enough) it really does get easier and easier and......easier.

[bordertangoman]

In music practice I keping finding the same advice; practice slow and get it right; slow and accurate means it sinks into your body-memory, which is better than fast and bad
your body just learns bad technique.

In dancing slow demands more control, balance etc so its doubly beneficial.

[Peaches]

Very true. And, yet, after a certain point when you need to speed it back up, there's a whole new set of techniques for that, and a whole new way of practicing.

[dchester]

I personally have an issue with the solo practice part. I see especially boleos as a product of energy transfer, and in my experience many followers who practice them on their own just feel slightly unpleasant to me as a leader. A well followed boleo has a very distinct rubberbandy, smooth and at the same time snappy feel. Lets take the mechanically simplest one: the in-line boleo: The follower "tries" to do a backstep, but is interrupted in the middle. The leg and hip are relaxed, and so they continue moving even after the core has stopped moving - just a pendulum. Now why did the core stop moving? In dance: Because of the embrace - the backwards movement was slowed down, reversed a tiny bit for additional energy and then stopped. If i practice solo i can't get this impulse going without using the other leg/other muscles - and that generates a (IMO) a very different movement quality and energy. I really don't like it when i can feel a follower interrupting the energy of the boleo itself and doing her own boleo like thing instead.

I guess what i really want to say is that when practicing alone i don't think it is possible to really practice walking, or ochos, or sacadas, or boleos. I try to remeber that i am building attributes and balance when i do these exercises, but i am not actually dancing. The whole auto-ocho is a good example for that: "Practicing ochos" is good for balance, and dissociation, and good form, but it is not an ocho. A ocho only exist in the embrace, with 2 people. People who confuse the exercise with the real thing are not fun to dance with, and the same seems for me true for other exercises, like doing moulinettes. My first reaction to hearing about practicing boleos is being puzzled - boleos are for me one of the moves that are the most characterized by how energy is exchanged between leader and follower - thats what makes them exciting - inline boleos are one of my favourite moves to follow. The feeling when the leg just suddenly flies around, and the energy from the leader are just fun it is somehow very freeing- i find saccadas in comparison pretty boring to follow - sometimes almost annoying (i feel interrupted) (i like leading sacadas more than leading boleos, though- go figure :) ).

Now that i have ranted: What do you actually do to practice boleos? The key seems to me to stay relaxed and let the momentum work / guide the momentum subtly when the leader interrupts a already started motion?

Gssh
I've had some very good dancers say that practicing solo is very beneficial, and I tend to agree with them. I don't think that should be the only way someone practices, but rather a supplement.

[Heather2007]

Maybe you missed my point: if you don't have good posture before you start dancing how are you going to get it while you are dancing you must mean more miserable

In very much the same way when I feel myself slouching at the computer, a little voice then taps me on the bonce and says, " Hey. Heather. Yoga Teacher. Whachya doin'. Sit up. Now". Reminders can happen where and whenever. Non?

[Heather2007]

For me, doing weight changes hasn't worked to stop the ocho machines, although it can help in other situations. The key thing (for me) is to gradually tense up the frame, and not do a strangle hold (it doesn't take that much, usually).

Or my way: to let go entirely with arms held aloft...ha, ha, ha. Works every time:p

[bordertangoman]

Or my way: to let go entirely with arms held aloft...ha, ha, ha. Works every time:p

I do an impersonation of Truly Scrumptious as clockwork doll doing ochos; wind up my key and watch me go (Thats Chitty Chitty Bang Bang for thos who dont know who TC is)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ygs2xfjJG2M&feature=related

[Peaches]

In very much the same way when I feel myself slouching at the computer, a little voice then taps me on the bonce and says, " Hey. Heather. Yoga Teacher. Whachya doin'. Sit up. Now". Reminders can happen where and whenever. Non?Heh...thanks for the reminder to sit up straight!

[Steve Pastor]

Here's the difference I see.
Some teach that the woman powers the molinete. In other words, the man should be able to pretty much stand still as the woman moves around him. She supplies the energy the creates the rotation.

Ochos are really a series of movments ending with the weight transfer and collection of the feet.

The boleo... is different.
In order to practice boleos without a partner, you have to bring your foot off the floor behind yourself. In order to do this, I'm going to guess that you make a significant contraction of the muscles in the back of your leg - the "hamstrings".
(I know this for a fact, because a few weeks ago, while doing a variation to the line dance to the Dwight Yoakum version of "Crazy Little Thing" I did exactly that. In this case, there is a slapping of the foot. Other than that it is the same motion as a "self boleo". Unfortunately, the muslce was not warmed up, and began to protest loudly. Imagine standing in the middle of a dance floor with a big ole cramp in your hamstring. Not fun. Note to self (again) MUST WARM UP)

So, there you are practicing contracting the muslces in the back, upper part of your leg to create this movement. What happens when you feel the movement that says do a boleo? Those same muscles will contract, in all likelihood with the same effort that they fired all those times you practiced the motion on your own.

There is the "unconnected" version of the movement that Gssh wrote about, the same thing that I feel.

[Peaches]

Well, and that would be guessing wrong about boleos and how they have to be practiced. It's more important, IMO, to practice looseness.

As for the unconnected bit...well, it's a learning curve. I know mine sucked for a good long time before I got the feel of them right. And, sometime, you'll just have to put up with that. It's a process. Of course the goal is a connected movement, but in the process of getting there it won't always be.

[Zoopsia59]

I've got a theory that auto-ocho-ing (or, for that matter, auto boleo / giro / anything - ing) is a function of thinking too much about sequences - or being taught too much in sequences.

I think its also a function of trying to follow with your brain instead of your body

[Zoopsia59]

no matter how "perfect" something gets to be, as I learn new stuff (even if it's above what I can accomplish with good technique) it puts the previous stuff in a different context. What was "perfect" isn't anymore, or now I want to refine. No, I may not be to the level of the new stuff, but that stretch to get it will improve the things where I am now, and really show me what I need to work on. And, I'm sure that as I progress, what seems like an improvement now will need to be tweaked/re-learned/undone in the future.

This is a great attitude. The problem I see with so many people is that they think when they stretch to learn the new stuff, the new stuff is all they need to be working on.

They assume that the fact that they are moving on to the next thing means that the old thing is down pat.

It almost never is.

[Steve Pastor]

Going with the tought that is is our All Purpose Discussion Thread (I looked at 4 pages of threads and found no more appropriate thread to post this in), and seeing that we are pretty much discussing practicing on your own....

I just stumbled across this site by Carrie Whipple who is based here in Portland.
http://www.carriechelsea.com/tango.shtml
Including "Follower's Embellishments Ocho Cortado" with video
http://www.carriechelsea.com/follow.shtml

[Peaches]

Going with the tought that is is our All Purpose Discussion Thread LOL. That's about right. Hell, makes me think we should start an "All Purpose Discussion Thread!"

This is a great attitude. The problem I see with so many people is that they think when they stretch to learn the new stuff, the new stuff is all they need to be working on.

They assume that the fact that they are moving on to the next thing means that the old thing is down pat.

It almost never is. What's really neat for me is discussing this stuff with DH, who doesn't dance but has gone through pretty much all of the exact same things with piano. What's interesting is that he'll go back and re-learn pieces. He was recently working on one that he did for a recital a few years after he started playing, then did again for a recital in college, and is now doing yet again. He talks about realizing just how bad his techniqe was in each previous iteration (although he never realized it at the time), and how it feels completely different each time.

[Gssh]

I actually think practicing solo is a very good thing - I spend a lot of time working on my walk and on dissociation and balance. And Peaches exercise for boleos makes a lot of sense to me.

What i wanted to talk about was that i think efficient solo practice requires a lot of awareness of the dynamics of partnerwork. I have danced with followers who (i assume) spent a lot of practicing ochos against a wall - and as a leader it is not pleasant when a follower uses me like i was a wall - it actually feels very bad - instead of going with the lead she feels like she activly goes against the lead - and i have no way to feel how deep she is ochoing, and i know that a double time ocho is completely out of the question, and that playing with shallow, deep and overturned ochos is going to be difficult. And the more a move is related to the dynamics of two people the less it can be practiced on ones own. And for me boleos are a prime example of that - what Peaches does is obviously extremely helpful for doing boleos - but what some followers do - "doing boleos", i.e. use their own muscles to move their leg instead of letting the momentum carry it - is not.

And even though i am used examples of followers technique i rally think this is as much a problem for leaders than for followers - it took me a very long time to understand how to do walking on my own. I would walk nicely on my own, ankles brushing and all that, and it would break down when dancing with somebody. One of the symptoms was that my steps with my left leg had (still have :( i have gotten better, though :) ) a tendency to be longer than my steps with my right leg, and walking in the cross system on the left for more than the "traditional" two steps was difficult, and the right was basically impossible. When i started to understand how dissociation is related to walking, and that even walking in the parallel system requires a tiny bit of dissociation to compensate for the assymetry of the embrace if you want to walk straight i changed how thought about my practice, and started to think of walking solo as something that helps with some aspects of walking, and is useless for others. And similarly with trying to learn moves - practicing what i should do and then expecting the follower to fit into that does not work for me. The best advice i ever got was somebody who told me "You shouldn't dance on your feet, you have to dance on hers". Its kinda anti-zen - no asking "what is the sound of a single clapping hand" :)

Gssh

[Peaches]

Ahhhh. See, it's all coming together. :)

I think part of the problem of practicing alone that you're seeing and objecting to (please, forgive me if I'm putting words in your mouth here) is the idea of just what you're practicing when practicing alone.

There's not much wrong with practicing boleos (or walking, or giros) by yourself, so long as you're aware that in doing so you're not practicing the connection, or the lead, or the follow (obviously)...but, instead, are focusing the practicing on some particular element which is removed from the partner aspect.

Of course a lot of things require practice with a partner. And, unfortunately, that means that one's partners are going to spend plenty of time dancing with someone who feels like crap! :) C'est la vie.

As for the ochos/pushing against a wall thing... I think I know what you're talking about. It could be a practicing against a wall thing--although if they're aware of why they're practicing against a wall (minor steadying, a something to focus on to keep your center aligned towards--NOT as something to push against), it shouldn't be a problem. I'd think it's more an issue of never having learned the correct way of doing them, either as the result of poor teaching or no teaching on them. I encountered something like that doing ocho exercises in a workshop--I have never felt someone lean/pull on my hands/arms that much, and pull and push against me that much. One particular woman in the rotation was the worst--my arms were literally tired after just her. (Of course, that made me paranoid about doing the same thing!)

[Peaches]

Too lazy to go find the lessons thread, and since it sort of ties in with stuff here...

Had a lesson today, for the first time in 3 (?) weeks. I was in a very blah, very inexplicably sad mood, very serious. (Want to apologize to my teacher for that.) But what a good lesson. So many little moments of gratification, if not outright "Ah-ha's!

I finally got a boleo with my right leg to feel good. Not consistently, and not as good as my left leg, but about 50% of the time, which is a huge improvement. Yay! I don't even know how it happened. I think I was focusing on something else, and he led it, and I'd let it happen before I realized what was going on. And it just...felt...right. EEEEEEEE!!!!!! *happy dance*happy dance*happy dance*

He showed me a new fun thing to do. Kind of mini linear back boleo (that really isn't) with my right foot, into a right-behind-left crossed position, followed by 2 right-behind-left back crosses done very quickly. OMG those feel awesome, and are so much fun! I was dancing other things and thinking about them and thinking how well they could be used in milongas! (Now, if only I could find guys to lead them.) So much fun. Particularly when there are several of them in a row and they rotate a bit...*swoon*excited*excited*excited*!!!!!!

I've been practicing good tango posture, with my weight on the inside edges of my feet since the last lesson, and it paid off. The insides of my thighs are sore from how I was using those "muscles," and the inside edges of the balls of my feet are sore. Perfect! And my feet were sore, which leads me to believe I was actively using them more than I usually do.

And...best part of the lesson...we danced one milonga, in close embrace, and it felt... *sigh* ...OMG, wonderful. (Well, to me, at least. I know it's always better for the worse/less experienced dancer than it is for the better dancer. But I can't help that, I can only do the best I can do now. And to me it felt wonderful.) I've had the week from hell, and this one milonga, about 2/3 of the way through the lesson...it's like the week just disappeared for me. I was tempted to start crying, just because it felt so good, and so right, and so relaxed, and so...just what I needed. The connection was good, and it was close embrace (with weight sharing), and my following was spot on, and...well, it was one of those dances where things just seem to come together. And I needed it. Like I said, it was hard not to cry. (Jeez. That makes me feel like such a...girl!...and I hate that! LOL.)

Edit to add: Oh yeah, one other very gratifying moment. He led a colgada, with a spin-ny bit, into a close embrace volcada. I usually hate those. H.A.T.E. But today, not an issue. His comment to me, which means the world (as, I'm sure, most of use value those rare moments of true praise from our teachers), was that it's like I'm a whole new, confident dancer. Given how shy, and how timid I generally am, that means the world.

[Steve Pastor]

Really happy for you!

[bastet]

that's really great!

[Mario7]

Yay! I don't even know how it happened. I think I was focusing on something else, and he led it, and I'd let it happen before I realized what was going on. And it just...felt...right. EEEEEEEE!!!!!! .

I'm happy for you, too..and I know that 'cry'en feel'in', too.
..as a student of 'learning' theory..I vote the paragraph above as cogent.
It was the set up, 'no mind', that led to the a-ha's!
We often just try too hard ...:cool:

[Angel HI]

Essa, Peaches. Que bueno.