When is a spin turn not a spin turn?

[gclarke]

I do hope I am not about to ask another imponderable.

I'm wondering about about degrees of turn in spin turns.

For example, in our quickstep we learned to do a turn to get round a corner. In a subsequent week we learned a new step coming out of the turn and using the same turn, we simply didn't turn as far in order to be in the right place for the next step.

In the waltz I find when I look up the Natural Spin Turn, the degree of turn is more than we are doing at present.

Is it normal to have different versions of the same turn or would it be a different animal?

It may be that what we are being taught is over-simplistic, in that we face or back the wall to begin rather than start at an angle, but leaving that aside, I just wondered when our instructor uses the phrase 'we are going to do the same turn but this time we don't turn as much' whether that would ACTUALLY be the same turn.

[WorksForShoes]

You certainly want to listen to more experienced posters than me when they come along, but preliminarily, I can tell you that it is possible to underrotate or overrotate a turn. So, it could be that the book tells you that a turn properly involves 3/8 a turn, but you only need it to turn 1/4 to go around a corner, so you underrotate it.

[Josh]

Yes, it would actually be the same turn, and many figures allow for under- or over-rotation. A "regular" spin turn rotates 7/8. But if you're at a corner, or just for the heck of it, you can under-rotate it, typically making it a 5/8 turn instead. Or, you can over-rotate it to make it a full turn, and then follow with something like a turning lock to the right going down the LOD. Chasses, double reverse, natural turns, pretty much anything can be rotated more or less to suit your needs in a situation or your choreography. Don't get carried away though ;-)

[Me]

A general reply to this question and many others you have posted in the past:
You need to lock the videos and books away. Practice what you have learned from your instructor. Work those turns with your partner. Forget the right and the wrong. At this point you are trying to learn how to rotate your body. Slow down and give yourself time to be a beginner - Enjoy the full license you have to make mistakes. ;)

Re: Turning
Now that you have put away your books, just know that a prescribed degree of turn will be found in syllabus figures for ballroom standardization purposes only. When you are dancing in a social situation, each lead will have his own way of dancing, and rarely will all leads in a room use the same degree of rotation, even if they all have the same instructor. (Your dance classes have been social dance, correct? Your questions about foxtrot were about social fox.)

[gclarke]

Thanks everyone. It all gets clearer ;)

You need to lock the videos and books away. Sorry Me but I actually LIKE delving into the books and videos. It doesn't confuse me in a way that actually affects what we are doing. I can quite happily seperate that or for that matter things that I learn here, from the class stuff. And it's not a matter of right or wrong, just a quest to understand more.

I tend to lock little bits away for future recall and I found stuff from the books videos and this forum very useful. It is sometimes stuff I can't use yet but that's no big deal. What is worse though, is feeling I've lost the plot with something and not having an answer.

I guess I just like to learn with my head and well as my feet:)

[nucat78]

We tend to under-rotate much more frequently than over-rotate. The logic behind that is that it's much easier to correct an under-rotation on the next step(s) than an over-rotation. Your mileage may vary...

[Me]

...It doesn't confuse me in a way that actually affects what we are doing. I can quite happily seperate that or for that matter things that I learn here, from the class stuff. And it's not a matter of right or wrong, just a quest to understand more.


And here is where I disagree with you 100%.

Please, go back and read your posts. Oftentimes when you post technical questions they are so vaguely worded that readers either cannot understand what you are asking or have such completely different interpretations they argue. When readers ask you for clarity oftentimes you say you don't know, even if it is a question as basic as, "What foot are you on." I admit I've started avoiding many of your boards because in the past they have devolved into open forums for chest beaters to throw books at each other.

Again, I believe you need to leave the books alone, as many others have advised as well.

[fascination]

well.... certainly that is one way to view the scenario...but frankly, I disagree ME...the forum serves many purposes for people with varying personalities....many folks read through similar material and have questions like gclarke's...we all benefit from newcomer questions..it helps other newcomers and it even helps veterans to be able to articulate their own perspective on whatever the subject is at hand ...while the questions may be incoherent or muddy such that one may have trouble approching answering it doesn't mean that the quest or this member's process of learning needs to be criticized...admittedly, it is not the process I would choose, BUT, blessedly, we are all different...and our resident "chest beaters" are also a valuable asset (lol, MOST of the time)...it's all good...ask away G...and certainly it is fair for people to ignore any posts that give them a headache

[Me]

I advised her to avoid the books at her stage of learning. She disagreed because she said they don't confuse her. I responded by citing her history of posts which clearly illustrate her lack of understanding at this stage of learning.

I did not mean to imply that she should not come to the DF with questions. I am sorry if it came off that way. :(

HOWEVER, my advice that she abandon the books stands. To ask about degrees of turn and pour over manuals and videos when you are having your first lessons in basic social foxtrot is a recipe for disaster!

[fascination]

I do not disagree with that aspect of your post nor am I intending to reprimand...anything else I might say would simply be a re-statement of what I have already said....and your view is legitimate IMO

[gclarke]

To ask about degrees of turn and pour over manuals and videos when you are having your first lessons in basic social foxtrot is a recipe for disaster!

That's a little unfair Me. Whilst we may have only just started social foxtrot we have been doing the other dances for a while now. Whilst still beginners we are actually being given steps that involve turns whisks chasses weaves swivels etc. in a total of 7 dances, now 8 with the foxtrot.

Opinions have been voiced that it is too much too soon and I'm not going to criticise my instructor - I think he's great - but I have a personal need to try and understand what we are learning, something I can't do in class and can't do at a private lesson for reasons I won't bore everyone by repeating.

I know my methods are at variance with others but while people have been kind enough to try and answer, I am greatful for anything that helps.

I hope as my understanding grows, my questions will get a little clearer.

As for the books and videos - that's just me. I have a house full on just about anything that has caught my interest.

:friend:

[VTDancer]

Following 1,2,3 of a Waltz Natural Turn
Normal Spin Turn: 1/2 Turn + 3/8 Turn = 7/8 Turn (finish backing DC as man)
Underturned Natural Spin Turn: 3/8 Turn + 1/4 Turn = 5/8 Turn (finish backing DC ALOD as man)

[VTDancer]

Overturned Spin Turn: 1/2 Turn + 1/2 Turn = 1 whole turn (finish backing LOD as man)
UnderUnderturned Spin Turn: 1/8 Turn + 1/4 Turn = 3/8 Turn ( at a corner finish backing DC ALOD on new LOD as man)

Not as sure about these amounts of turn as the Normal and Under.

(In my opinion, easy access to information is in the best spirit of what the Interent is all about.)

[soshedances]

It is definitely possible to under or over-rotate figures such as Spin Turn, and its buddy, Closed Impetus. Honestly, every leader I've ever danced with turns them a different degree. There are a lot of variables that seem to affect this: the dance we're doing, speed of the music, traffic in front of us, pattern before the spin turn, pattern he wants to do after the spin turn, it varies.

In a social situation, I try not to analyze it too much, just go where the leader wants me to. If it becomes part of a comp routine, then I'm more inclined to worry about how much it rotates because I want to make sure the next figure comes out on the right alignment.

[soshedances]

(In my opinion, easy access to information is in the best spirit of what the Interent is all about.)

Definitely agree with that. Where else can you ask the opinions of pros, judges, competitors, and social dancers of all different ages, backgrounds, and locations?

Everyone has their own style of learning...use whatever works for you and never stop asking questions!

[madmaximus]

gclarke

There are precious few tools that we can use when we first learn to dance (videos, books, the advice and perspective of an advanced partner, instructor, or knowledgeable DFer...)so I can understand your desire to find and root out knowledge and information.

What we see on a video is a result of minutiae that doesn't necessarily conform to our (beginner's) idea of how such movement is accomplished--hence the cautionary advice others have posted.

Books (particularly the ones like the Standard Technique by the ISTD) lend themselves well to helping us learn and become better dancers and can be good tools if we are taught how to properly use them first, otherwise it simply leads a beginner to more confusion--again, hence the cautionary advice.

Just another perspective you might want to consider.

Meanwhile, to answer your question:

As in any figure, a spin turn is always a spin turn while its main elements are present and recognizable.
When adjustments/modifications are imposed upon a specified or published figure (to gain better movement, expression, or better floorcraft), then the name is commonly given a descriptive modifier.

For example:
Overturned Natural Spin Turn; Running Open Natural Spin Turn; Underturned Natural Spin Turn; etc...





m

[Another Elizabeth]

Again, I believe you need to leave the books alone, as many others have advised as well.

Different people learn in different ways. I started reading The Ballroom Technique quite early, and it was very helpful to me. I see no signs that it's interfering with gclarke's dancing - just that she doesn't know how to use it well enough yet to not need to ask the questions here to clarify. People with analytical minds often find it helpful very early on. If that's not you, that's fine, but she's not arguing with her teacher about degrees of turn, or trying to follow "the book" to the exclusion of following or paying attention to what's going on around her - she's just seeking another source of information. There's nothing wrong with that. If she gets frustrated with it, she can give it up, but I don't think it's interfering with her learning.

[gclarke]

Thanks everyone.

Just back from an evening out for hubby's birthday so a bit too tiddly to absorb the details.

Tomorrow is another day and I will read the posts again.

Off to bed with a Baileys now.
:cheers:

[SPratt74]

The only thing that I have to say about videos is that just be careful as to what you buy. I looked online when I first started, and I couldn't tell the good videos from the bad ones. Now I can, so I'm glad that I didn't spend money on things that I didn't really need. But I do agree that we do learn different ways. It's just that, I find that with me since I am very analytical, the best thing is to just ask my instructor questions. I can read this forum and watch videos when I'm bored and what have you, but it doesn't make sense to me until I'm actually taught the moves I need to work on. And he knows that I'm analytical, so he knows how to teach me. I may bore him with specific questions, but I can tell a difference in my dancing when I do so though.

[WorksForShoes]

While I understand and respect Me's perspective, another thing to remember is that we all learn differently -- some of us need to read, some of us need to observe and freezeframe things, etc. Yes, the danger of books and DVDs too early is that they can be very confusing and of limited utility, but it doesn't hurt to start using them, IMHO. Just remember that it will be easier later to go to the book and say "how much rotation does a spin turn get?" than it is now to say "how do you do a spin turn?"

[fascination]

lol...everything is confusing at first...I don't know how many times I have had the epiphany, "oh...THAT's what he meant way back when"...

[Peaches]

Heh...if I had a nickel for every time I've thought that...

[kayak]

I wanted to encourage gclarke to be very generous with compliments towards her husband. His learning to lead the two of you out of the logjam or beginners all stuck in the corner is going to take a lot of floor flexibility. When I was first learning, I was shocked how easy it is to dance right into the corner and be stuck between the swing dancers and the bathroom. When you are beginning, it is amazingly difficult just to backup from where I could get us stuck.

I mention this because so many of the threads going right now are about fine tuning details like 5/8th vs 7/8th turns. The truth is the amount of over or under rotation is totally dependent upon making it around the dance floor without hitting anyone.

That means your partner will have to lead what he can. If you assume he can only lead 1/3 of what you did in class, that doesn't give you a lot of options getting around the floor. As a guy, I was thrilled each time we made it around the floor with even kind of reasonable form.

[jwlinson]

lol...everything is confusing at first...I don't know how many times I have had the epiphany, "oh...THAT's what he meant way back when"...

I've said this many a time myself. Many many times actually...

I wholeheartedly agree with G's methodology of pouring over books and videos. I have tons of dance videos, dvds, manuals, etc. that I've collected over the past three years. It's very true that at first I didn't know how to read the ISTD manual, and even though I was watching the videos I didn't quite get all the detail on footwork/technique. However, as the years have progressed I found I was able to read the manual and actually understand it, and also recall things I had seen in the various videos I'd watched once I'd reached the point in my lessons where I'd learned enough to know what they were talking about.

I also know right where she's coming from as far as "how much rotation, etc." I used to think the very same thing. Experience has taught me that yes, there is an amount specified, but in practice that amount can vary with the situation. My advice: learn the exact amount just to KNOW that you know it, and store it for reference. During your serious practice sessions, go with that amount. During your social dances, feel free to experiment. Play around with it, and try not to get too caught up in exact details in those situations. I know the speed limit on the interstate is 65, and when a cop's around you can be sure I'll do exactly that. When one's not around, though, I'll be doing 75 :)

Keep in mind dancing is still about having fun. You can be serious and precise when the situation demands it, but have fun with it whenever you get the opportunity.

[gclarke]

Thanks again everyone.

It's the little things that make the difference sometimes. Unless some-one actually tell you these things it's quite bewildering.

I'm amazed at how I think there are soooo many steps we have learned only to see when I get it down on paper or straight in my head they are almagamations of the same things.

I find these threads so useful. At the time they just make little things fall into place then later I come back and reread to take on board a bit more detail.

And I will try and remember about encouraging Dave. We're at the stage now where we can get round the floor - just - but as mentioned we often find we're too far into the corner or similar.

In another thread it was mentioned about a man have a series of sounds to signal to his partner what was coming next. It had me in stitches but a little bit of it reminded me of either Dave or I muttering 'lockstep' which is our lead into a spin turn in the quick step.

That came after a discussion about why we got too far into the corner to turn. The first time I said it was an experiment which we continued about 3 times round the floor. Then we got the hang of it and stopped. Next time we boxed ourselves into the corner Dave grinned and said 'your fault - you never said lockstep'.

Thanks to this forum I can laugh at things like that but at the same time remind myself that Dave has to learn to lead and I have to learn to follow, tough as that may be for both of us.;)

[samina]

d 'your fault - you never said lockstep'.

:)

Meh...don't sweat it, it's a process. For now you're sharing some verbal cues, but if you keep at it you'll start to communicate better with your bodies.

You are such a dedicated student, gay. :)

[gclarke]

Spin Turn only has 3 steps. It's frequently preceded by a Natural Turn hence the 6 steps. That one would be called a Natural Spin Turn. There are many possibilities that you can do after the Spin Turn instead of the one that you mentioned. So to answer your question, 3 steps.

This one looks like fun :) I hadn't actually equated the 1st 3 steps with the Natural Turn.

I sort of grasped that people were going to refer to the 3 steps as being the actual turn even though the books quote 6 and some places on the net quote 9 including the 'change steps' after the turn.

I am finding it intriguing as I delve more and suddenly realise how much repetition there is as opposed to me thinking it was all new stuff (regardless of what it's called;)).

The more I read and delve the more it starts to seem very logical to be facing/backing the wall/centre at given times whereas to begin with it seemed quite a random assortment of variables.

From a beginners point of view when thinking about it or jotting it down, do you suppose it would be best to think of it as 9 steps or to break it into it's parts?

[Josh]

I'd recommend to keep up what you're doing G, as long as it doesn't burn you out. Research and study, even when what you dig up, often doesn't make senes. But it leads to more questions, which you can seek good answers to. This is how we often learn on our own--we have to get a little dirty first, before we dig up something valuable!

[Gorme]

From a beginners point of view when thinking about it or jotting it down, do you suppose it would be best to think of it as 9 steps or to break it into it's parts?

Since you're doing so much studying on your own, I'd recommend breaking it down into parts. When you get into more difficult patterns, you'll realize it's made up of steps you already know. It has just been reorganized, repackaged and given a different name.

[jwlinson]

Dave has to learn to lead and I have to learn to follow, tough as that may be for both of us.;)

...or as long as you can backlead and he can backfollow... :D

[cantskiforlife]

I have to say that I agree with ME, Fascination, and everyone else on here. There is a lot of good that comes out of reading the books, but it can also lead to disaster if the concepts are not formed correctly.

All education is hirearchical. This means to learn efficiently and with few errors, the underlying technique must be taught first. Unfortunately, ballroom dancing is rarely taught in this manner. Afterall, most beginners want to dance and would run away if they were told that they will start learning how to dance with a partner after their first 40+ lessons.

With that said, The books and videos begin teaching at a 6th grade level. They do not give you the primary education (Nursery - 5th) that you will eventually need to improve your dancing. I recommend using them in conjunction with a teacher who can help explain the primary concepts. DF'ers can be extroadinarly helpful as well, but since we do not know you personally, and do not know what concepts you currently grasp, we are at best, guessing at what is the best response to your questions.

I relied heavily on the books when I first started (5-6 hours a day learning the figures in the books). Without actually understanding the technique behind movement, I was left playing a gave of twister in which I traveled around the sides of my room. I had no understanding of where my chest or hips were supposed to be in relation to my feet or how I was supposed to move my weight from my left foot to my right foot. And worse yet, I had to figure out a way to move my partner from one side to the other and she kept getting in my way! Cough Cough :) :) <-- I wonder whose fault that was.... MINE!

Even when I saw other dancers performing these moves and thought I understood what they were supposed to look like, I was wrong. It wasn't until I saw my coaches perform these moves over and over again that I began to understand how they were supposed to look. Even then, it took me a long time to dance them properly (I still don't).

My point is that books and videos are wonderful resources if used properly. But if you take everything in them for granted and do not question how and why your body moved from point A to point B, they can lead to extraordinarily bad habbits.

I suggest that you continue using the books and videos, however it is more important to play with every concept you learn so that you can hone your tecnique. Knowing that you need to move from point A to B is one thing, knowing how to move from point A to point B is entirely different.

Since you are obviously interested in technique, perhaps you can develop a personalized 6 month plan with your instructor covering the basic techniuqes of dance.

I look forward to more posts.

[gclarke]

Thanks everyone. I will certainly continue my quest for improvement.

Cantskiforlife, I fully appreciate everything you say and if I thought my husband had the same interest I do, it would be a tough call between doing what we are doing, which is a pleasant social evening out, and looking for something more in depth.

Dave and I were discussing it a couple of nights ago, his question being exactly where did I want to go with the dancing. Whilst I started knowing I would enjoy it and got hooked, he started not knowing but is surprised to find he enjoys it more than he thought he would.

However, it has to be said that I like to dance and he likes to fish, if you get my drift.

At this point, I don't know to what extent I want to take it, certainly not to compete, although maybe Bronze, and later Silver, as I like the sense of achievement. Dave may well not want to be that involved and I'm not sure how far I can take it on my own.

I'm pinning my hopes on getting into the next class as soon as we can. At present there are only 2 or 3 couples in that class so there is way more time to ask questions and get a little more individual attention.

Thanks again everyone.

[cornutt]

I can't say "I disagree with Me" because in writing, well, it looks a bit schizoid. :mrgreen:

[Angel HI]

I have just been reading...OK...lurking in the background too chicken to come out. I think Cantski's post http://www.dance-forums.com/showpost.php?p=552443&postcount=31 said extremely nicely what Me was trying to say, and others have posted. Basically, that it does appear through many of your posts, that you are being shown and laboring over things that are way too early in your education, and though being exposed to, and even trying, some of these things will be fun, they are toys that should be played with, then put away for a day when they will make more sense...that laboring over them, especially as technically as some books and videos portary them, though interesting to study (you seem to be a studier), their full understanding, appreciation, and perfection are unattainable at your current level. This isn't meant to be condescending; we all were/are there at some point...and often, continuously.

Secondly, simply stated, that there is as much fun to be had learning the basics, and the "feelings" of those techniques, and how they make all of the other things more understandable/attainable as time allows. Books and vids are great...well, some, but should always be used in conjunction with personal instruction (MM's post here http://www.dance-forums.com/showpost.php?p=551910&postcount=16 is great). However, I must say, certainly not being critical of your pro, as a coach, I do not believe that I would not be teaching these things to 'classes' at a beginners' level. The posters here are not anti-book/vid, we just wish to urge you to/through the most benficial/progressive course of study.

Lastly, re your quest of the spin turn... I am surprised that everyone here, though correct, went in the direction of amounts of rotation, and precedes and follows. I believe the answer to be simple, and having nothing to do with under/over turns, etc. Ironically enough, it is an...OK, don't have my head, by-the-book answer. :) Coaching over the years, I have found this to be the biggest error when dancing the spin turn; the man not taking a forward step (heel-toe) before attempting to spin. Consequently, the lady doesn't step back (left foot) prior to accepting the movement. Most persons, including pros (sorry guys), do some sort of turning rock, and then try to attain the spin from the topline. IMHO, when is a spin turn not a spin turn....when it is danced w/o the proper step/movement, thus making it a turning rock.

Dance is not an equity of movement and method. I always say, 30% technique and 80% feeling (and, that is not a typo). Keep reading, but put it in perspective. Yet, most of all, as Me began and others have said, give yourself a mental holiday, and just keep dancing.

[gclarke]

OK Guys - I hear what you're saying.

It's kind of hard for a leopard to change it's spots though. When something gets me hooked I get rather immersed.

I learned to swim at almost 50 having been so petrified of water that even a shower made me panic if the water went in my face. With the swimming, I got hooked there also. A similar thing, not getting what I wanted from my local group lessons. I was lucky there in that a) it only affected me as opposed to us as a couple, and b) I was able to find specilaised tution that suited me. I went on to gain my teaching and life-guarding qualifications, and a year ago took my Open Water diving qualification.

My brain goes at 90 miles an hour constantly. I have spent some time and effort learning to switch off and relax but basically I am not happy unless I'm doing something. If I wasn't thinking about dancing it would be something else.

Don't get me wrong - it must sound like dancing is the ONLY thing I think about. It isn't - I have many other interests, some of which I get just as involved in - and believe it or not, when I post here I am in turn 'switching off' from other things I'm doing;).

So I do hear and take on board what you're saying, but I'm not quite ready to 'slow down' just yet. I don't want to spend the next year pottering along just adding new steps. Quite how I'm going to change things I don't know yet, if indeed I can, bearing in mind what my husband may want to do. He learned to dive with me and is learning to dance but I don't expect him to necessarily have my enthusiasm for these things.

In the meantime, I want to at least be able to name the routines we have and jot them down on paper to jog my memory. Yes I will ask whenever a new step is added from now on as Gorme suggested, but early on I was too involved in trying to keep up to even think about that.

On a final note, my waltz is now down on paper, an achievement in itself, and again, many thanks to all those who took time to help me 'name those steps'.

I will save the next one for another time and switch off for a while.:)

[fascination]

sorry dan....that particular clip has nothing to do with spin turns

[samina]

All education is hirearchical.
FWIW, all education is not hierarchical. That is just a paradigm perhaps consistent with your personality type. There is also spherical learning. While a hierarchical approach is linear, spherical learning is not.

Some people absorb learning through focused method, others absorb in bits from many directions & levels at once and tend to repeat in circuitous loops, and others use a combination of approaches. Some people have a very strong self-correcting "inner teacher" that makes them exceptional independent learners and others do better with formal instruction.

There is simply no one correct black & white approach.I think gay should honor her way of learning and continue with her enjoyment of immersing herself into the complexities of the figures. I have a feeling that when the time is right to shift gears, she'll know. Learning goes in phases for everyone...

[cantskiforlife]

FWIW, all education is not hierarchical. That is just a paradigm perhaps consistent with your personality type. There is also spherical learning. While a hierarchical approach is linear, spherical learning is not.

So a note of clarification. I meant to say Knowledge is Hirearchical. Unfortunately education is rarely this way.

When you mention spherical learning, I assume that you mean leanring a concept here, learning a concept there, and over time merging them togehter to better understand the concepts.

Sperical learning is what humans do naturally because the path to knowledge is rarely understood well enough to teach it step-by-step.

It is of vast benefit to teach in a hirearchical manner as you are able to build concept upon concept. This is not necessarily a linear relationship as you can have many concepts that come together to form a tree or web-like structure. In all cases, the knowledge is still hirearchical.

In mathematics, you cannot understant multiplication without understanding addition. You cannot understand additon without understanding numbers. You cannot understand numbers without understanding what a single entity is and how one object can differ and is different from another.

If we expand this example to algebra, where you need to know multiplication, addition, subtraction, etc... to fully understand it. We, we see an interesting thing occur.

You may be able to learn about division before you learn about subtraction and multiplication, and you may be able to learn concepts of algebra without knowing all four of these lower-level concepts, but it still holds that you must understand the core concepts such as numbers and entities before you can understand algebra.

In dance, it doesn't really matter if you learn a promenade or natural or reverse turn first. You need to understand the concept of movement from foot A to foot B first.

Now, with your knowledge of walking, you can definitely dance any of these three steps at the start, but you cannot clearly understand them until you learn how to move from foot A to foot B with all of the technique associated with it.



Now in the case we have here, I think it is more important the beginning stages to choose a few moves (pick 5 per dance) and focus all of your attention on understanding the basic concepts within the framework of these 5 moves. I think that if the goal of the daner is to learn the technique of how to dance the fewer moves you know, the faster you will improve.

[jwlinson]

I can't say "I disagree with Me" because in writing, well, it looks a bit schizoid. :mrgreen:

It's perfectly natural to argue with oneself.

No it isn't.
Yes it is.

:p

[samina]

So a note of clarification. I meant to say Knowledge is Hirearchical. Unfortunately education is rarely this way...

i think we have a different understanding of the various ways that one can acquire knowledge. but that's okay. :)

Now in the case we have here, I think it is more important the beginning stages to choose a few moves (pick 5 per dance) and focus all of your attention on understanding the basic concepts within the framework of these 5 moves. I think that if the goal of the daner is to learn the technique of how to dance the fewer moves you know, the faster you will improve.this may be right for some, not right for others... i just don't think one can universalize this. well, one *can*... i just don't think it's an accurate statement to do so. :cool:

dancing fewer steps may create a limited context where certain technique can be learned, but dancing more steps can create the context for experiencing the flow of natural forces in other ways, to feel the logic & vitality of movement flowing through one's body that only "more" can give and not less.

it's all good...

[gclarke]

Now in the case we have here, I think it is more important the beginning stages to choose a few moves (pick 5 per dance) and focus all of your attention on understanding the basic concepts within the framework of these 5 moves. I think that if the goal of the daner is to learn the technique of how to dance the fewer moves you know, the faster you will improve.

Now for me, that would work just fine, and I would be quite happy to do exactly that. I know I've said it before but a lot of my frustration comes from a feeling of step-learning rather than dancing.

I suppose my problems start with the fact that I've made a decision to stay where we are for the moment despite having so many steps and not enough basic skills, whilst at the same time, I'm balking at that decision and trying to add to my knowledge.

That said, knowing me, no matter what was happening in class, I would still want more.;)

Edit: I should have added that whilst that would suit me, it would probabaly have the vast majority of the class not coming back the following week. As you said - "if the goal is...." and I think that's they key.

[Josh]

I think the more important question has now become,

"When is a thread about a spin turn not a thread about a spin turn?" ;-)

[gclarke]

"When is a thread about a spin turn not a thread about a spin turn?" ;-)Oops - I'll get off my soapbox and try not to be so defensive :)

[cantskiforlife]

Interestingly enough, last night, I decided to play a bit more with the spin turn (and natural turning figures in general) as it has been bothering me for a while. I could not figure out what was annoying me and kept blaming the disconnect between my partner's body and mine. Particualrly, the very first step (that is the 4th step if you are including 1-3 of the natural turn) ... where the guy steps backward ... has always annoyed me. I always felt that my body and foot position were blocking any momentum and progression.

So last night I recalled (with the help of a wonderful friend) that there is this thing called sway. I can hear you all laughing now (some of you hitting your heads). Well, it was just the reminder I needed. I can now feel my initial momentum continue through the entire spin turn and into the next step (assume 4-6 reverse turn for now). And it feels goooooooood!

This is a case where I have to unlearn years of bad habbits because I started off reading the books and learning the names and foot placements for all bronze and silver steps in 3 of the 4 styles (not latin) instead of learning the basic concepts behind each movement.

From a technical - long-term growht standpoint, I would rather see individual concepts taught and then brought together to form a spin turn, a natural turn, pivots, etc...).

Of course from the social, I don't care if I fall or how I look, I want to have fun running around the floor perspective, this is the wrong way to teach as you would loose clients before the first lesson ended.

So I pose a question to all..... What do you think is the best way to go about educating ballroom dancers?


Oh - gclarke, have you thought about taking privates without your husband? Since you seem more passionate about it than he is, the two of you could attend group classes together and then you could take privates on teh side while he (to steal your term) goes fishing.

[gclarke]

So last night I recalled (with the help of a wonderful friend) that there is this thing called sway. I can hear you all laughing now (some of you hitting your heads). Well, it was just the reminder I needed. I can now feel my initial momentum continue through the entire spin turn and into the next step (assume 4-6 reverse turn for now). And it feels goooooooood!
Lol that reminded me of what Dave and I went through when we'd had 3 weeks of not being able to get it even half way right. Of course, I didn't have the luxury of a word like 'sway' in my vocab.

Oh - gclarke, have you thought about taking privates without your husband? Since you seem more passionate about it than he is, the two of you could attend group classes together and then you could take privates on teh side while he (to steal your term) goes fishing.
Not sure about that. The idea appeals but does that bring other problems? For example, if it were to widen the gap between us, would I be tempted into things like backleading? I'm hoping to find a dance holiday where we can learn more together.

[cantskiforlife]

Not sure about that. The idea appeals but does that bring other problems? For example, if it were to widen the gap between us, would I be tempted into things like backleading? I'm hoping to find a dance holiday where we can learn more together.

What is your priority when it comes to dance? Dancing at the level of your husband, or learning to dance for yourself? These are not mutually exclusive, but there is a weight to each.

As you get better, you will find that some of the technique you learn will have to be put aside as he is unable to lead it. This is the same for most social dancing. What you can do is maintain your own frame and body position. Work on following his lead, don't think of back-leading.

Just some suggestions.... Ryan

[gclarke]

What is your priority when it comes to dance? Dancing at the level of your husband, or learning to dance for yourself?

The short answer is - I don't know yet. I think probably both. I am so hoping his enthusiasm holds for a while and that question won't arise, but at the same time avoiding disappointment by not taking that for granted.

Now I've just had a breakthough getting my quickstep sorted. Last night I managed to get an answer to my running step conundrum in that it is a Running Right Turn. Even then it nearly drove me crazy trying to work out why what we were doing looked so different to what the book was showing.

To cut a long story short, it came back to 'When is a spin turn not a spin turn'? The answer is when it should be a pivot turn. :headwall:

I think since we haven't done a pivot turn, we are using a spin turn, underturned, instead of where the book begins with the pivot turn. Once I'd grasped that, life got a lot simpler.