Dancing With Dignity (Changing Room Issue)

[chocolatchica]

I know that there is already a thread out about this but couldn't find it! Anyways I though I would post this website because it is taking some of the things we discussed and turning it into an advertised campaign! Yay!
Thanks the Dancing Channel

Dancing With Dignity (http://www.thedancingchannels.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=jldb7im5pan4ot6sf7j9oaetj6&dancegenre=&newsitem=48&danceform=0&event=0)

[BasicsFirst]

Agreed! However, we WON'T ask (what the link summarily says to)... we simply and decidedly choose NOT to participate in events where this goes on. We know which ones they are.

[Larinda McRaven]

I signed it.

[Kassia]

Sigh, in a perfect world there would never be a problem like this.. Grow up and act like adults .. I for one don't care who i dress and undress in front of but if it is an issue then contact the organziners and see if there is an alternative.. I have danced many many times where the only other place to change was in the bathroom.. Or there was nowhere else to change and we had to arrive fully ready to go!
One thing my belly dance friends do is to wear a very large caftan over thier costumes when not dancing.. It can, as we put it, be used as a very large portable change room and does provide a bit of privacy.. Works well on the beach too!!!!
Thankfully there usually others there who can zip you up and stuff... But perhaps as long as people make these things a "problem" it is going to stay the way it is.. Do not reward bad behavior is my motto... If you have a problem with it, say something and if it does not change then don't dance at those events.. You have to decide what is important to you...
As for kids... Hmmm.... I am going to really get in trouble for this one.. Its ok for little girls to be all made up and look like small sexy women but it's not ok for them to change with the adults? Ohh geesh that sure is a double standard..
We were lucky enough at our last showcase to have separate change rooms for men and women.. Unfortunatley there are not with the bathrooms and you have to go somewhere else to do make up and take care of other business which adds to the time it takes to get ready.. The problem is tghis too.. Hotels and convention centers are not dance studios and sometimes don't have the ideal facilties.. It's the way of the dance world, imho.

[danceronice]

I signed, even though so far it hasn't been a problem.

[dbk]

I've never had a problem with it. And as I think someone mentioned already, it's not that hard to change under a sweater if you're worried, or have friend hold up a blanket if you're EXTREMELY pressed for time.

[Katarzyna]

i don't see a problem in the US at all. I mean I could see how some people could complain in Europe, some of those comps can have crazy huge co ed changing rooms, but even than there are bathrooms if someone feels uncomvortable

[Easy]

The competitiors can have what they want if they don't mind the additional costs it will incur the organizers to provide the needed materials. You'd actually think as former competitiors, the organizers would understand this issue, but most of them are from old school...and it's the way it's always been. For a little expense per package, a smart organizer could add that extra touch ;)

[fascination]

I'll take communal changing rooms and cheaper comps ;)

[Larinda McRaven]

Having been an NDCA Observer, I can say that one of their duties is to inspect and acknowledge to the NDCA that the organizers did indeed provide seperate and adequate changing areas for both the men and women. So in the US at our professional competitions this is not too much of an issue.

I am unaware of the rules regarding changing rooms that USADance adheres to. And I seriously doubt the YCN competitions even provide changing rooms at all.

But definitely at NDCA comps we are already enjoying probably the best possible conditions.

[Kassia]

could see how some people could complain in Europe, some of those comps can have crazy huge co ed changing rooms, but even than there are bathrooms if someone feels uncomvortable

The same Europe that has topless ande clothing optional beaches?

[Katarzyna]

well, I went to the site and pretty much all the negative comments there had signatures from some european countries..

[chocolatchica]

I don't really have a problem changing in front of other people. I've been dancing my whole life. What bothered me was when I found a website that had some pics of dancesport women changing in dressing rooms. Many naked. And the subtitles were disgusting vulgar cr**. Stupid things like, "Sexy latin dancer getting ready to get hot with her partner." If I would have found my pic up there I would be very upset.Especially with the vulgar subtitles they had. So it's not so much dressing in front of others that bothers me, it's the fact that the dressing rooms are sometimes coed and open to just about anyone who feels like coming in.Including those looking for a peep show. Mind you, I have now idea what kind if solution would solve this problem because you never know who is capable of doing this. Even your fellow competitors. So anyways thats my issue

[Joe]

I am unaware of the rules regarding changing rooms that USADance adheres to. And I seriously doubt the YCN competitions even provide changing rooms at all.
Pretty sure all comps provide changing rooms. Now, as to whether or not they are practical/useful changing rooms (more so than just going to a restroom), that is another issue. ;)

[samina]

I'll take communal changing rooms and cheaper comps ;)
I agree.

I missed reference to ballroom in that article...seemed to be describing a culture or environment I haven't been exposed to. It wasn't referring to the ballet or modern dance world?

Edit to add: looks like I didn't go deep enuf into the article...didn't see the pix & ballroom references you guys have menntioned.

[tanya_the_dancer]

I've noticed though, that some ladies would not use ladies changing room and would just go to a bathroom stall.

[pnoisette]

Chocolatchica:

In the U.S. the Video Voyeurism Act was passed in by the Senate in 2003 and by Congress in September 2004 and signed by the president in December 2004. People who inappropriately videotape children under 16 will face tougher penalties. The law now states:

" Whoever, in the special maritime and territorial jurisdiction
of the United States, has the intent to capture an image of a
private area of an individual without their consent, and knowingly
does so under circumstances in which the individual has a reason-
able expectation of privacy, shall be fined under this title or impris-
oned not more than one year, or both.
``(b) In this section--
``(1) the term `capture', with respect to an image, means
to videotape, photograph, film, record by any means, or broad-
cast;
``(2) the term `broadcast' means to electronically transmit
a visual image with the intent that it be viewed by a person
or persons;
``(3) the term `a private area of the individual' means the
naked or undergarment clad genitals, pubic area, buttocks,
or female breast of that individual;
``(4) the term `female breast' means any portion of the
female breast below the top of the areola; and
``(5) the term `under circumstances in which that individual
has a reasonable expectation of privacy' means--
``(A) circumstances in which a reasonable person would
believe that he or she could disrobe in privacy, without
being concerned that an image of a private area of the
individual was being captured;

[chocolatchica]

Chocolatchica:

In the U.S. the Video Voyeurism Act was passed in by the Senate in 2003 and by Congress in September 2004 and signed by the president in December 2004. People who inappropriately videotape children under 16 will face tougher penalties. The law now states:
Thanks for posting! Did not know about this:D

[ChaChaMama]

I fear such laws will be difficult to enforce, though.

Have had some personal experience (with still photos of a child, not video, being filched and posted) that makes me think this.

[Another Elizabeth]

I am unaware of the rules regarding changing rooms that USADance adheres to. And I seriously doubt the YCN competitions even provide changing rooms at all.

Some of the YCN comps probably provide some of the best changing facilities you're likely to get. The ones in athletic centers (like MIT) can get access to actual locker rooms.

[Larinda McRaven]

Thanks AE. Does YCN have a ruling or are the people at MIT just getting lucky?

[Another Elizabeth]

Thanks AE. Does YCN have a ruling or are the people at MIT just getting lucky?

YCN doesn't have any rules that I know of for competition organizers, just customs. In general, though, the competitions know that competitors won't come back if there aren't at least sort of adequate changing rooms, so they do their best to provide them. Even if it's just two big curtained-off areas. But schools often have locker room facilities - it's the upside of not having a hotel venue.

On the topic of hotel venues, I have often wondered why more competitions don't use guest rooms for extra changing facilities. They often are comped several rooms by the hotel. I understand that many of those are used for the competition workers, but how hard could it be to designate that Room 102 is the women's changing room, and Room 103 is the men's? Even if they had to pay for them, having them available at all would be a plus.

[Joe]

On the topic of hotel venues, I have often wondered why more competitions don't use guest rooms for extra changing facilities.
Liability for broken [stuff].

[pnoisette]

Chacha MaMa:

I fear such laws will be difficult to enforce, though.


Yes, if by enforcement you mean policing the changing areas at comps.

"Enforcement" in terms of giving a law "teeth," however, can happen when tested in court with actual cases. Incidentally, someone mentioned liability by comp owners: video voyeurism is a form of sexual harassment and where this occurs in the workplace or in colleges and schools, these institutions are sometimes held accountable for the harassment that takes place on their premises. In the dance world, I often think comp owners and participants are sometimes rather naive or negligent when it comes to the question of liability.

[Ballroom Dru]

I am unaware of the rules regarding changing rooms that USADance adheres to. And I seriously doubt the YCN competitions even provide changing rooms at all.

But definitely at NDCA comps we are already enjoying probably the best possible conditions.

YCN Comps ( Closing on 100 attended..which is scary): Usually locker room facilities available. Almost always had changing rooms that are large enough.

USA Dance Comps (15-20 attended) : Probably the smallest changing rooms I have experienced. No offense intended. MAC will hopefully fix that next year. NJ Danceport at Batista's I understand..the hockey arena is awesome though.

NDCA Comps (3 attended): all 3 times had great changing rooms.

[Ballroom Dru]

A side note. A friend and I were discussing the fact that at Nationals there were occasionally almost as many women as men in the men's changing room. Usually the mothers of the younger male competitors. How do the gentlemen on the forum feel about this?

[Joe]

I go about my business as usual. I have nothing the mothers haven't seen before (on at least one other person). If they don't want to be flashed they can GTFO of the dressing rooms. And if the chicks in the dressing room aren't the kids' mothers--if they're someone's partner or something--it's not my problem.

[fascination]

aren't you charming today

[etp777]

Hrmmm, Joe already got chastised, so I won't make the comment I was planning on. :D

[fascination]

it is more the abbreviations darling, than the content.......his response is fair game and was asked for

[etp777]

Yeah, but mine wouldn't be, it'd jsut be troublemaking. :D

[fascination]

smack...nutball...think I don't have enough problems?

[tanya_the_dancer]

On the topic of hotel venues, I have often wondered why more competitions don't use guest rooms for extra changing facilities. They often are comped several rooms by the hotel. I understand that many of those are used for the competition workers, but how hard could it be to designate that Room 102 is the women's changing room, and Room 103 is the men's? Even if they had to pay for them, having them available at all would be a plus.

At the comps I've been to, they always had 2 smaller meeting rooms reserved as changing rooms, and sometimes one more as a practice/seminar room. I don't think using guest rooms would work, since they would have to leave them unlocked, or else it would be a nightmare for the organizers to keep track of the keys. And for the comps held in a hotel a lot of competitors are usually staying in the hotel anyway, so changing room is not as much of an issue.

[Chris Stratton]

And for the comps held in a hotel a lot of competitors are usually staying in the hotel anyway, so changing room is not as much of an issue.

And a lot aren't staying in the hotel because they are within a few hours drive, or not in that hotel.

[tanya_the_dancer]

And a lot aren't staying in the hotel because they are within a few hours drive, or not in that hotel.

Good point, but still a couple of meeting rooms is plenty, IMO. I can't imagine using a typical hotel room as a dressing room for a large number of people, even if they take the furniture out :).

[skwiggy]

I went to a small comp once where they used a hotel room as the ladies' changing room. It was a small enough number of competitors that it worked just fine, save for the usual problems with men walking in and leaving the door wide open. They just left the door unlocked for the day. I don't think it would have been enough space at a larger comp though.

[Gumby]

I was at a smallish comp earlier this year. There were seperate ladies and gentlemen's changing room not big or plush but adequate. During the evening event one of the gentlemen latin pro's was in the ladies changing room in briefs getting "tanned" by his partner. I know a few am ladies who had to wait quite a while to use the room till they vacated. I went ahead and changed anyway. I figured if he could stand looking at my fat tush I could deal too. But the arrogance of it really ticked me off- oh yes - oh God-like latin pro of course your events are soooo much more important than mine - go ahead and invade the five square feet of space I have to change in . Of course, I didn't say anything cause my pro would have had my head for hat but I sure thought it.

[Ballroom Dru]

One thing I have learned, if they are European there is a good possibility that the very idea of a men's and women's changing room is alien to them. I discovered this hanging out with a few at a comp once. And when I say alien...I don't have a drivers license and I am perfectly fine withought one. How alien an idea is that to you? Having female Pro's in the mens changing room doing there guys make-up would have been an interesting experience the first time if it were not for my theatre background.

[Joe]

Does it work in reverse?

[tunape]

YCN doesn't have any Even if it's just two big curtained-off areas.

you mean the curtained off area where from the men's changing area, you can see the silhouettes of the women changing against the incoming light through the window? :)

We've been pretty lucky to have good facilities recent years, and hope we don't get kicked out.

[tunape]

But the arrogance of it really ticked me off- oh yes - oh God-like latin pro of course your events are soooo much more important than mine - go ahead and invade the five square feet of space I have to change in .

Likewise, as Dru and Joe pointed out, the mothers in the men's changing room tend to spread and conquer. They generally: 1) ignore all privacy of others(fine), 2) spread and take up space, and 3) have a sense of entitlement that they have a god-given right to be there. Yes, they need to take care of their kids, but shouldn't they have considered this before the comp and provisioned accordingly as any good parent should, instead of take up a shared resource because their "events are sooo much more important than mine"?

At least be sensitive to others' privacy, and/or resources rather than running over other people. If they are really bothersome, you can always have them arrested.

[pygmalion]

A few thoughts:

1. Joe is right (even if he was less than his usual charming self 2.5 years ago when he posted here) If the changing rooms are coed and someone is presuming that they "deserve" special treatment, they're wrong.

2. Somehow, I think that comps that involve kids should try to do a better job. Middle-aged Mom who's doing am-am for the first time and is turned off by the sight of Joe's ...ahem ... chest :lol: needs to get over herself or go find a restroom and change. But Warren's soon-to-be three year old doesn't need to see full-grown, naked men. (My prejudice as a parent, partially... but still.)

3. Why don't comp organizers raise the price a few (5 - 30) bucks per person and reserve two small ballrooms -- one for a lady's changing room and one for men? Not sure why that hasn't been addressed.

[fascination]

it seems to me that this is not a large problem...I can't even remember the last time I encountered it

[tanya_the_dancer]

A few thoughts:

1. Joe is right (even if he was less than his usual charming self 2.5 years ago when he posted here) If the changing rooms are coed and someone is presuming that they "deserve" special treatment, they're wrong.

2. Somehow, I think that comps that involve kids should try to do a better job. Middle-aged Mom who's doing am-am for the first time and is turned off by the sight of Joe's ...ahem ... chest :lol: needs to get over herself or go find a restroom and change. But Warren's soon-to-be three year old doesn't need to see full-grown, naked men. (My prejudice as a parent, partially... but still.)

3. Why don't comp organizers raise the price a few (5 - 30) bucks per person and reserve two small ballrooms -- one for a lady's changing room and one for men? Not sure why that hasn't been addressed.

I haven't seen co-ed changing rooms anywhere. But I have seen none at all, so people had to change in the bathrooms. My peeve regarding that is somehow a) a considerable number of ladies want to change inside the stall, which is an issue when there is a limited number of stalls, and someone needs to use it for its primary purpose and b) when you change in the corner of the bathroom, some other ladies appear to really dislike it (I've encountered same attitude in the gym, too).

For point 2, that reminded me of something that happened to me many years ago. I took my then 3 year old to a swimming pool in our gym. We used ladies changing room. So when we were done, I was packing things up and he was chatting to me like most 3 year olds do, and suddenly he shut up, as if someone turned him off. I looked at him, and he had completely shocked look on his face. And then I looked around, and I realized that he saw a seriously obese lady wearing a swimsuit (I guess he's never seen anything like it and I've never seen him react to anything in this way either). Not that it's done him any lasting damage, but this shows that there's a chance for a child to see more than his parents want them to see in any changing room.

[pygmalion]

re: bathrooms as changing rooms. I run into that every day at work. There is a gym with locker rooms. But there is a large group of women who like to walk after work and who don't think it's worth paying the 20 bucks a month for use of the locker rooms. So, if I want to ... ahem ... pee anytime between 4:30 and 5:00, I have to compete with them for the use of a stall or else walk several minutes to a part of the building that has no power walkers. Quite annoying.

And yes, T. Any time you take a kid into the bathroom/changing room with you, you're taking chances.

[MissKitty]

Wow it shows how sheltered I am in NZ! I cant beleive you have to have co-ed changing rooms and worse still people have to change where they can be seen by the audience and even accidentally get caught on camera! Naive of me to say, yes, but wow! If I had to change somewhere the audience could see me I wouldnt go to the competition.

I would put up with a co-ed changing room as long as it was private from the audience but I cant say I would be entirely comfortable with it. And I am far from being a prude! I would be comfotable sharing a room with men of my own age but not teenage boys thanks!

The worst changing rooms I have seen here were just the opposite end of the practice room curtained off, but they were still private from the audience and same sex only. Men arent allowed to just waltz into the ladies and vice versa.

The best are at our regular venue. They are upstairs from the audience with windows looking down to the dance floor so the competitors can see what is going on, but the audience cannot see them.

The are same sex only and ladies are not allowed in the mens rooms or vice versa.

In between the two changing rooms is a 'co-ed' room which is where partners who need to help each other with tan/make up etc can go.

I dont know if the mens has any as I have never been in there, but the ladies room has floor to ceiling mirrors on one wall, and bench seats.

Its an absolutely brilliant venue.

[tanya_the_dancer]

I'd venture a guess that college competitions which are supposed to be less expensive overall are the ones more likely to have coed changing rooms. The only competitions I've done are more expensive pro-am ones and they usually have two changing rooms (although I've been to one which didn't have any, and people had to change in the bathrooms).

[Larinda McRaven]

NDCA has rules that require separate changing rooms for men and women. No NDCA comp can run without them.

[pygmalion]

I'd venture a guess that college competitions which are supposed to be less expensive overall are the ones more likely to have coed changing rooms. The only competitions I've done are more expensive pro-am ones and they usually have two changing rooms (although I've been to one which didn't have any, and people had to change in the bathrooms).


I've been to a few where the pro-am females rented a hotel bedroom or suite for changing because the comp did not provide any changing rooms.

[fascination]

interesting...I have gone to many, many comps where I have not stayed on site and I was always able to find a bathroom, a changing room or a room of a friend....if I was going to get a room I might as well stay on site :)...while this may be an issue at collegiate comps, I truly see it as a non issue for the most part...though I will grant that there may be isolated windows of it

[MissKitty]

Sigh, in a perfect world there would never be a problem like this.. Grow up and act like adults .. I for one don't care who i dress and undress in front of but if it is an issue then contact the organziners and see if there is an alternative.. I have danced many many times where the only other place to change was in the bathroom.. Or there was nowhere else to change and we had to arrive fully ready to go!
One thing my belly dance friends do is to wear a very large caftan over thier costumes when not dancing.. It can, as we put it, be used as a very large portable change room and does provide a bit of privacy.. Works well on the beach too!!!!
Thankfully there usually others there who can zip you up and stuff... But perhaps as long as people make these things a "problem" it is going to stay the way it is.. Do not reward bad behavior is my motto... If you have a problem with it, say something and if it does not change then don't dance at those events.. You have to decide what is important to you...
As for kids... Hmmm.... I am going to really get in trouble for this one.. Its ok for little girls to be all made up and look like small sexy women but it's not ok for them to change with the adults? Ohh geesh that sure is a double standard..
We were lucky enough at our last showcase to have separate change rooms for men and women.. Unfortunatley there are not with the bathrooms and you have to go somewhere else to do make up and take care of other business which adds to the time it takes to get ready.. The problem is tghis too.. Hotels and convention centers are not dance studios and sometimes don't have the ideal facilties.. It's the way of the dance world, imho.

No I dont think its ok for little girls to look like small sexy women and here they do not. There are VERY strict rules on the dress code for Juveniles, including what makeup they are allowed to wear, and their hairstyling.

And I do not think it appropriate in any way, for a little girl to share a changing room with a grown man that is not family at a dance comp.

I do not think a private area to change in, one for ladies and one for gents, is very much to ask. If we had an event here and were told there would be only a co-ed room there would be an uproar.

[NonieS]

I remember when I was 12, I was in Austria and the hotel had co-ed changing rooms for the pool and sauna (mind you, a sauna filled with naked old dudes). I recall my 12 year old self being a little :shock: at first, but nobody made an issue of it so in no time I didn't care... but then, I come from a theatre/dance/figure skating background so have been getting nekkid in front of perfect strangers for as long as I can remember and now probably am less modest than most normal people. Therefore, I personally don't care about changing rooms, co-ed or no.

I mean, if I absolutely HAD to, I could probably change on the floor in front of everyone so I really am not someone to offer an opinion here.

[pygmalion]

Heck. I'm a lot older than twelve and I would be traumatized by shriveled old dudes in a sauna. :shock: :lol: Just kidding!

You're right, though. Cultural perspective has a lot to do with it.

[drejenpha]

I'd venture a guess that college competitions which are supposed to be less expensive overall are the ones more likely to have coed changing rooms.

In my experience collegiate comps all have single gender changing areas, be they locker rooms (most common), general purpose rooms (dc & big apple, on campus venues not in gyms), bathrooms specifically designated for changing (off-campus venues), or at worst in pvc pipe and cloth areas (where everyone just goes to the bathroom unless they're in a huge hurry).

ETA:
As a guy I'm a bit calloused towards changing in front of people, I do make an effort to not change/fix myself in front of kids at comps. Within my own collegiate group we pretty much agreed that we were comfortable changing together because we'd basically lived together for years... we were all careful about changing so there wouldn't be issues anyway.

[tanya_the_dancer]

The original thread is a few years old, maybe things have changed.

[Bailamosdance]

Honestly, this is only marginally associated with dancing, and perhaps calling it 'changing clothing with dignity' would put it more in perspective.

I am an 'older' dancer and I note that many of my peers agewise have body issues - displaying them or seeing them - but virtually none of the younger folks do. They're at peace with things. Personally, I am totally comfortable with nudity and feel that nudity is certainly not a moral issue, but I do see many folks that equate the naked body with either something that should be hidden from view or worse should be pulled out of day to day conciousness. Some folks actually see nakedness as a religious or political issue. Irregardless, please all remember that your personal problems with nudity do not allow you to put your beliefs on others. Live and let live. If you're a mom in this small dance world, honestly, the sooner your kids see that you are ok with the human body the sooner they will be comfortable with them.

[DL]

Irregardless, please all remember that your personal problems with nudity do not allow you to put your beliefs on others. Live and let live. If you're a mom in this small dance world, honestly, the sooner your kids see that you are ok with the human body the sooner they will be comfortable with them.

Both you and people who desire more privacy would be comfortable with changing areas that afford privacy. People who desire more privacy would not be comfortable with changing areas that don't. So, the way to "live and let live" is to provide facilities that afford privacy. The answer is not to argue that others should desire less privacy..

[Larinda McRaven]

is your second sentence a mistake?

[DL]

is your second sentence a mistake?

now edited, hopefully for the better

[Benjy]

I have never seen this as a problem. It seems a little strange to me that participants in an activity which consists of using the body to express sexual relationships for the entertainment of others would be so concerned about changing in front of others, at the very least to the point where there would need to be some class-action style petition formed. I say this coming from a european household where nudity was a non-issue, but honestly I have never once thought "will people be watching when I change?" A bigger issue for me is "where will I put my stuff such that it's safe and within easy access"?

[Meagan]

I'd venture a guess that college competitions which are supposed to be less expensive overall are the ones more likely to have coed changing rooms.

Can't say that I've encountered this many times but I've certainly never encountered this at a college competition.

The only competition I have been at where I've witnessed semi-coed dressing rooms was the Amateur Latin Worlds in Brooklyn (where I volunteered). It wasn't for lack of room or even for the organizers not setting out a men's and women's changing area. Instead it was the competitors, their partners, and their parents that insisted on entering the opposite sex dressing rooms. Any volunteers assigned to providing directions seemed to either just be out-maneuvered or maybe just gave up at the constant insistence from the competitors that this was the way things were done.

I wasn't in charge of dressing rooms or directions but I was in the nearby on deck area so I did hear some of the commotion when volunteers were trying to keep people in their respective rooms in the beginning. By the end of the night, at least from my limited walks by it did not appear that there was a clear mens/womens room any longer. Seemed by the end, volunteers were mainly focusing on keeping out non-competitors (other than family/coach assistants accompanying a competitor).

[Terpsichorean Clod]

Can't say that I've encountered this many times but I've certainly never encountered this at a college competition.
Ditto. I've never experienced that and have never heard of anyone experiencing that at a college comp.
The only competition I have been at where I've witnessed semi-coed dressing rooms was the Amateur Latin Worlds in Brooklyn (where I volunteered). It wasn't for lack of room or even for the organizers not setting out a men's and women's changing area. Instead it was the competitors, their partners, and their parents that insisted on entering the opposite sex dressing rooms. Any volunteers assigned to providing directions seemed to either just be out-maneuvered or maybe just gave up at the constant insistence from the competitors that this was the way things were done.

I wasn't in charge of dressing rooms or directions but I was in the nearby on deck area so I did hear some of the commotion when volunteers were trying to keep people in their respective rooms in the beginning. By the end of the night, at least from my limited walks by it did not appear that there was a clear mens/womens room any longer. Seemed by the end, volunteers were mainly focusing on keeping out non-competitors (other than family/coach assistants accompanying a competitor).
Perhaps the solution is to start providing three changing rooms. :razz:

[MissKitty]

Perhaps the solution is to start providing three changing rooms. :razz:
lol thats what we have here. We are very lucky!

[pygmalion]

Ditto. I've never experienced that and have never heard of anyone experiencing that at a college comp.

Perhaps the solution is to start providing three changing rooms. :razz:


Why the heck not? That's what many larger businesses do with bathrooms these days -- they provide men's, women's and families'.

It might be nice to keep the pesky kids and their equally pesky parents out from under foot. :shock: :wink: Just kidding.

[pygmalion]

Both you and people who desire more privacy would be comfortable with changing areas that afford privacy. People who desire more privacy would not be comfortable with changing areas that don't. So, the way to "live and let live" is to provide facilities that afford privacy. The answer is not to argue that others should desire less privacy..

I have to say I agree with you on this, DL. (Surprise. Surprise. :wink: )

[danceronice]

One thing that occurred to me as it came up in a thread on FSU talking about schools and I don't remember if it came up up thread here--I would think if it's a competition with children as competitors having them in coed changing rooms would be a liability issue. At the day care (excuse me, "after-school") I worked for our male staff were told "Don't hug the kids, don't pick the kids up, don't let them sit on your lap, even if the kids initiate it, don't go in a room alone with them, don't go in the bathroom with any of them." Just the men--the fear wasn't even that any of them would do anything to the kids (for a start we all had a state background check before hiring) but that someone would THINK they did. Letting strange adults in the same area where children were changing would seem like a risky idea for all concerned.

[wooh]

3 changing rooms? So women, men, and mixed? So we'll have women with sons and men with daughters in the mixed? Need 4 changing rooms minimum. But then what about adult women and men who want to change together? 5 changing rooms minimum. But then, some people won't change in front of anyone. Changing rooms for every single competitor, minimum. Maybe comps should be held at places that can accomodate a room for each competitor, maybe a place like a hotel?

[pygmalion]

3 changing rooms? So women, men, and mixed? So we'll have women with sons and men with daughters in the mixed? Need 4 changing rooms minimum. But then what about adult women and men who want to change together? 5 changing rooms minimum. But then, some people won't change in front of anyone. Changing rooms for every single competitor, minimum. Maybe comps should be held at places that can accomodate a room for each competitor, maybe a place like a hotel?


Oh my gosh wooh!

Take everything to the most extreme logical limits. Why not?

[danceronice]

Sadly, if there are kids involved, you would either need multiple arrangements or simply not allow opposite-sex parents in with the kids (one would assume they'd have to have a hotel room or use a bathroom, though obviously that's a tricky option especially for a man with a daughter.) But where kids are concerned you now HAVE to be insanely paranoid or you'll get sued.

For adults, they can usually figure things out, but when you've got kids involved, you have to, figuratively speaking, CYA.

[Benjy]

The only competition I have been at where I've witnessed semi-coed dressing rooms was the Amateur Latin Worlds in Brooklyn (where I volunteered). It wasn't for lack of room or even for the organizers not setting out a men's and women's changing area. Instead it was the competitors, their partners, and their parents that insisted on entering the opposite sex dressing rooms. Any volunteers assigned to providing directions seemed to either just be out-maneuvered or maybe just gave up at the constant insistence from the competitors that this was the way things were done.


It is the way it's done. Who else is going to help tan my partner's back, or help her fix or dress, or do her hair? That's one of the fun things about partner sports... you don't have to deal with it all alone.

[pygmalion]

For adults, they can usually figure things out, but when you've got kids involved, you have to, figuratively speaking, CYA.

Yep. :-?

[Meagan]

It is the way it's done. Who else is going to help tan my partner's back, or help her fix or dress, or do her hair? That's one of the fun things about partner sports... you don't have to deal with it all alone.

This was basically my point. I just think its interesting some of the assumptions about what kind of comps would "let this happen", like college comps or cheaper comps, when in reality that's really not the case, at least in the US.

Additionally, whether you think its right or wrong or whatever your parenting preferences might be with your own kids, at many of the comps I've been to parents with young children are the first to loosely interpret the designated changing areas (although I will say IME its usually the mothers entering the men's changing area with sons and not the other way around). They are also the most likely to not use the changing areas at all (changing kids in corners, hallways, etc.).

Anyway this isn't to say that people shouldn't be uncomfortable about the existing situation because its a very personal decision or that they shouldn't discuss it with organizers if they think something should be changed. Just that there are obviously different view points, and general statements about who are the biggest offenders and who should be most protected may not be in line with how things are actually working.

At any rate, I think at comps in the US we're generally pretty lucky with accommodations, I've certainly never seen any situation where competitors *had* to change in the middle of the ballroom.

[danceronice]

Additionally, whether you think its right or wrong or whatever your parenting preferences might be with your own kids, at many of the comps I've been to parents with young children are the first to loosely interpret the designated changing areas (although I will say IME its usually the mothers entering the men's changing area with sons and not the other way around). They are also the most likely to not use the changing areas at all (changing kids in corners, hallways, etc.).

If you're an organizer or employer, it's not about parenting preferences. It just takes that one person to accuse someone of something and you're getting sued. Unfortunately, anyone who works with kids now HAS to paranoid. The easiest thing is probably requring minors who need assitance from an adult to change in hotel rooms.

[Standarddancer]

I would like to support, but this one is kind of causing inconvenience to most "No mobile phones or unauthorised cameras to be taking inside the changing areas"; of course unauthorized cameras should not be taken into change room, but no mobile phone allowed to be taken into change room? which means competitors have to rent a locker for mobile phone before change? what will be extra cost? and what if I'm in change room and my partner need to call me from ballroom that our heat is running 30 mins earlier? no phone in change room? That's difficult !!!

[Standarddancer]

These makes perfect sense in IMO:

1. Changing areas/dressing rooms should be completely enclosed and out of sight of any member of the audience or other public areas.

2. These areas should have curtained or partitioned cubicle available for dancers to use for changing purposes only.

5. Single sex Toilet and washing facilities, available exclusively for competitors

[pygmalion]

These makes perfect sense in IMO:

1. Changing areas/dressing rooms should be completely enclosed and out of sight of any member of the audience or other public areas.

2. These areas should have curtained or partitioned cubicle available for dancers to use for changing purposes only.

5. Single sex Toilet and washing facilities, available exclusively for competitors



Makes sense. :cool: The cubicles might be a logistical problem, though, depending on how many cubicles and how many competitors. I can foresee the early risers claiming a cube and the late comers being out of luck.

[pygmalion]

I would like to support, but this one is kind of causing inconvenience to most "No mobile phones or unauthorised cameras to be taking inside the changing areas"; of course unauthorized cameras should not be taken into change room, but no mobile phone allowed to be taken into change room? which means competitors have to rent a locker for mobile phone before change? what will be extra cost? and what if I'm in change room and my partner need to call me from ballroom that our heat is running 30 mins earlier? no phone in change room? That's difficult !!!


What gives? Is the mobile phone ban about cameras? And who in the world would think that a phone ban is viable in this day and age? :-?

[DL]

What gives? Is the mobile phone ban about cameras?

Yes.


And who in the world would think that a phone ban is viable in this day and age? :-?

It certainly is viable depending on the measures it seems worth taking to enforce it. The question isn't "can it be done," but "is the cure worse than the disease".

However, keeping it at the level of an explicitly-stated social contract with prominent signage might suffice, as it would cause people to feel more free to be on the lookout, and to report surreptitious picture-taking to somebody who could act appropriately.

[Bailamosdance]

I would like to support, but this one is kind of causing inconvenience to most "No mobile phones or unauthorised cameras to be taking inside the changing areas"; of course unauthorized cameras should not be taken into change room, but no mobile phone allowed to be taken into change room? which means competitors have to rent a locker for mobile phone before change? what will be extra cost? and what if I'm in change room and my partner need to call me from ballroom that our heat is running 30 mins earlier? no phone in change room? That's difficult !!!

Honestly, no offense to older dancers (i'm older LOL too) but you are not the issue for cell phones - it's the younger ones, man and women, who might be the focus of secret photos, not you... but so what? Desensitizing nudity and the human body has occurred as folks have evolved from the prudish 1950s and 60s... images that would be titillating are a dime a dozen on the internet, and are not 'special' any more; and people live their lives in public on facebook. So what is the big deal? And... if you are embarassed by your body, chances are that others will be too!

Turning off snark mode in 1, 2,.....

[pygmalion]

The question isn't "can it be done," but "is the cure worse than the disease".



Yes. Agreed.

The point is that, in banning camera phones, the organizers are also banning all the other capabilities people rely on their phones for. As someone mentioned earlier, texting or phoning a partner with results, times, etc. are obvious examples. I'm sure there are other examples, as well.

This is the 21st century. Like it or not, most people's phones are like extensions of themselves. To ban lots of real people from having access to information in order to prevent a few theoretical people from taking illicit photos seems a bit draconian. But that's just me.

[danceronice]

Honestly, no offense to older dancers (i'm older LOL too) but you are not the issue for cell phones - it's the younger ones, man and women, who might be the focus of secret photos, not you... but so what? Desensitizing nudity and the human body has occurred as folks have evolved from the prudish 1950s and 60s... images that would be titillating are a dime a dozen on the internet, and are not 'special' any more; and people live their lives in public on facebook. So what is the big deal? And... if you are embarassed by your body, chances are that others will be too!

Turning off snark mode in 1, 2,.....

If you don't get the issue is the YOUNG young ones, don't run an event with under-18s unless you enjoy lawsuits and child-porn charges. Also, anyone who runs a studio that's teaching kids and isn't pulling background checks on employees is asking for trouble.

Seriously, the phone/camera thing is about kids. If you have a picture of an underage kid on your phone or computer that can even just be interpreted as titillating you may find yourself explaining to the police why you're not really committing a felony. So you have to turn off your crackberry for five minutes while you're changing. Better than the organizers and everyone in the room winds up in court.

[pygmalion]

If you don't get the issue is the YOUNG young ones, don't run an event with under-18s unless you enjoy lawsuits and child-porn charges. Also, anyone who runs a studio that's teaching kids and isn't pulling background checks on employees is asking for trouble.

Seriously, the phone/camera thing is about kids. If you have a picture of an underage kid on your phone or computer that can even just be interpreted as titillating you may find yourself explaining to the police why you're not really committing a felony. So you have to turn off your crackberry for five minutes while you're changing. Better than the organizers and everyone in the room winds up in court.


Agreed when it comes to the protection of kids and the *hint* of a *perception* of child endangerment. Have gone through many, many a background check for the privilege of selling cookies at a school bake sale. This is no joke.

That being said, I think that the complaint is not about being asked to turn off ones phone, but about not being allowed to take it into the changing area at all. I don't think that the rule is realistic. Maybe it's on the books for legal CYA reasons. But it won't work in the real world, IMHO.

[danceronice]

I agree there--it would be easier to just ask people to turn them off. (Honestly, I usually get sporadic reception at best in hotels anyway....)