Off-the-beat leader

[MacMoto]

Had an interesting dance experience on Saturday.

I danced with this guy, who first asked me which style I danced (meaning "Cuban or LA" rather than "on1 or on2" as nobody dances on2 around here. BTW, I hear an alarm bell ring when I hear this question -- seems to be a sign of a not-so-good leader for some reason), then proceeded to lead me when I said "either's fine". Quite a nice, varied set of LA style moves, led clearly but without too much force -- sounds good? -- but completely off the beat! We started on 1, but his second forward break came on the 8 and the third around the 7... or was it the 6? He was stepping faster than the music and didn't seem to notice that at all.

I have danced many a dance where you start on 1 and somehow end up breaking on the 3 or 5, either because you fluff a move and need extra beats to recover or the song pauses but the leader does not. I have also had dances where the leader hears a different beat than me in a rhythmically complex song and I need to adjust to what he hears before we can get going. But this I think was the first time I encountered somebody who didn't seem to hear the music at all when dancing (maybe I've just been lucky). This begs a question:

How did manage to get to that level of dancing when he has no (apparent) sense of rythm? :roll:

And more importantly,

What should the follower do in this situation? :?

- Should she tell him he's off the beat, start counting out 1 2 3 and/or back-lead him? :shock:
- Should she hint he's off the beat, e.g., "you dance so fast I can't keep up! I think you have to slow down a bit for me"?
- Should she ignore the music and follow his pace whatever it is?
- Anything else?

I ignored the music, and oh boy that was difficult. He seemed reasonably pleased with me but did not ask me to dance again for the rest of the night. I didn't know whether I should feel relieved or miffed...

I've found this article on Edie's website: Off-beat Support Group (http://www.dancefreak.com/stories/off-beat.htm)

Your thoughts?

[Sabor]

dont think there is such a thing as 'off beat' but more like those who unconciously change beat or cannot maintain a constant beat thru most of the dance.. they start on 1 then it changes to 2 or 3 and so on till it makes no sense.. some people seem just incapable of keeping rythem or simply just cant hear it.. not even with time or practice

yet .. i saw many on 1 dancers to whom on 2 or contra-clave dancers seem 'off beat' but usually after dancing a while and w/ experience they see that they are not.. just a different clave, actually truth be told, they more rythmic to dance on.. rather than the obvious on 1 (with the music) instead u dance 'on' the music (u ride it).. but that is a matter taste.. the point is - for most of the dance u maintain the beat u started with.. whatever it is.. u can change at particular music highs/lows/pauses etc.. depending on the clave but the way its lead is obvious that this is done deliberately on the music and serves the dance better..

If i dance with a follower that makes a mess of the music as i hear it.. then i complete the dance with a heavy heart.. but wouldn't ask her again or respectfully apologize if she asked me.. :?

[Vin]

There is definitely such a thing as off beat. Lots of people just don't hear or feel the beat in salsa. I have seen what you are talking about and was indeed even guilty of this myself for a while. Guys who can lead alot but often times lose the beat. What helped me once was the woman I was dancing with ever so subtly tapped the beat on my back while we were in closed position. I personally found that I lost the beat most often when doing the basic as strange as that may sound.
As to how they get that way, I got that way because for a long time I liked salsa music but I was not addicted to it. I never really just listened to it because I liked it. I only listened to salsa when I was dancing. Once I started listening to salsa purely for the sake of listening to it my dancing improved 100% because I started to understand and appreciate the music in it's own right.

[borikensalsero]

I know many a guys who are guilty of the off-beatness. I have a particular budy who does a million and one moves, all because he can't stay on the 2. So, he goes off doing a million things "properly lead" just to hide the fact that the gets off beat a lot. He can break in any count depending on the move he is doing, the thing is that he is a pretty good lead, so he can take the girl with him and make her do what he wants. All on his own timing, which as you have stated, can be 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, etc…

All in the name of not being able to stay within the same count all song long.

[dancin/dj]

off-beatness is a real drag,i've danced with some int/adv dancers who had lousy timing and you wonder how they get away with being in the adv classes :( but danced w/ beginners who had really good timing, me thinks theres not a one shot answer of how to deal with people on these and other matters. i quess find what you feel is right for each person , sometimes saying there off, sometimes no and letting it slide. borikensalsaro example of his friend is a nice twist, meaning maybe he hears different things in the music that cause him to dance on different numbers- is that wrong? i dont think so,to me its easier to dance like a machine/as far as keeping the on 1 or 2 steps(once you really get it down) but its so much harder for people to dance to the music-in terms of the colors that are going on-breaks-stops- lines from the piano- horns etc.

[MapleLeaf Salsero]

How did manage to get to that level of dancing when he has no (apparent) sense of rythm? :roll:

Good question! :shock: These people manage to do the impossible. :shock:


What should the follower do in this situation? :?

- Should she tell him he's off the beat, start counting out 1 2 3 and/or back-lead him? :shock:
- Should she hint he's off the beat, e.g., "you dance so fast I can't keep up! I think you have to slow down a bit for me"?
- Should she ignore the music and follow his pace whatever it is?
- Anything else?

Well do you know him? Is he a friend? If so, I would suggest telling him that he´s off beat and helping him with it. You could dance the basic step with him while counting to the beat. This may help a bit but won´t solve his problem. You could suggest that he listens to salsa all day long in order for it to sink in. This is how I did it and I was a real trouble case (completely hopeless at the time). :oops: :oops: A good song for him to listen to is "Salsa con Cadela" from Miguel Yamba. I would suggest he turn off the light, lie down on the bed, put the song on very loud and close his eyes. He should put the song on automatic repeat mode and listen to it as many times as possible. You can easily identify the clave (sometimes it´s clapped, other times you hear the two wooden sticks...). Afterwards he should do this with a number of other songs which have a constant beat and are easy to follow like:

"La Joda" - La Sonora Carroseles
"Yamulemau" - Joe Arroyo
"Betece" - Africando

Then when he starts understanding the basic rhythm pattern he should start to tackle other more complicated salsas with varying rhythm.

If you don´t know him, it´s usually a bad idea telling him that he´s off beat. Some guys don´t react well to this. Let his friends tell him, it´s their responsability. While dancing, just try to follow him the best way possible, never back-lead him. This feels uncomfortable and awkward for both parties. Just forget about the music and follow his pace. If its torture for you, just don´t accept the next dance or give him the "bored out of your mind" look during the entire song (he probably won´t ask you again).


He seemed reasonably pleased with me but did not ask me to dance again for the rest of the night. I didn't know whether I should feel relieved or miffed...

LOL!

[KevinL]

What should the follower do in this situation? :?

- Should she tell him he's off the beat, start counting out 1 2 3 and/or back-lead him? :shock:
- Should she hint he's off the beat, e.g., "you dance so fast I can't keep up! I think you have to slow down a bit for me"?
- Should she ignore the music and follow his pace whatever it is?
- Anything else?

A follower should do what the leader "says" for as long as she can stand it. Then pretend to fluff it, and ask him to start again. That way you aren't verbally telling your partner that they are wrong (guys often aren't comfortable with that), but he gets practice starting to the music.

It might not make the experienced follower look good, but it works.

Kevin

[MacMoto]

Thanks guys for your comments/advice.
What helped me once was the woman I was dancing with ever so subtly tapped the beat on my back while we were in closed position.
Vin, was she a friend or someone you danced with regularly?

Well do you know him? Is he a friend? If so, I would suggest telling him that he's off beat and helping him with it.
[...]

If you don't know him, it's usually a bad idea telling him that he's off beat. Some guys don't react well to this.
In my case I didn't know the guy, so I reckoned it would be safer to keep my mouth shut. If he starts turning up regularly at the places I go to and I get to know him, maybe I should think about drawing his attention to the problem...

If its torture for you, just don't accept the next dance or give him the "bored out of your mind" look during the entire song (he probably won't ask you again).
You know, these are two of the hardest things for me to do! :D

I have a particular budy who does a million and one moves, all because he can't stay on the 2. So, he goes off doing a million things "properly lead" just to hide the fact that the gets off beat a lot.
This is interesting -- so it's a case of "doing lots of moves because of his off-beatness" rather than in spite of! :idea:

Curious how salseras have been quiet on this subject -- fellow followers, have you encountered this problem? How do you deal with it?

[Vin]

Thanks guys for your comments/advice.
What helped me once was the woman I was dancing with ever so subtly tapped the beat on my back while we were in closed position.
Vin, was she a friend or someone you danced with regularly?

Actually this was when I was travelling to a conference and went to dance by myself in a new city. She was someone who I had danced a few dances with that night.

[TemptressToo]

I had a similar experience in swing dancing. This particular guy had all this fancy footwork...but the thing was...he was skipping a step. So...it was very off-beat and impossible to follow. He'd take his first two steps (single-time swing) and then skip or fail to complete or only partially complete his rock step. So...we had to stop every few moves. I basically had to talk him through the rest "step, step, rock-step, step, step rock-step, turn, turn, rock-step...." That seemed to work pretty well. ;)

[Genesius Redux]

Some of the issues in dancing with people who can't count include how new they are to dance. I don't understand how anyone can't count, because I've been a musician since I was eight years old and I just don't think about counting anymore.

But usually, if the dancer is new, he'll let you know--in which case I think it's nice and polite to be helpful and supportive. Chances are, in this case, and in Temptress's case, you're dealing with someone who has learned step after step but really has no solid grounding. If you don't know the person, the only choice you really have is don't dance with him, I think.

But I have had an experience that may help. I've got a very good friend who dances a lot, loves to do it, but has recently not been taking a lot of private lessons--and those he takes are with someone who is unlikely to address a serious problem of timing. Problem is with my friend--he never had any musical background before dancing at all. So he had to learn to count music from the ground up--I know this for a fact because I still talk to the teacher we formerly shared, and she's told me what a struggle it was getting him just to count.

Anyway, since he's been with his new teacher, his dancing has kind of gone downhill--because the new teacher will not fight the same fight that the old one did. And he can't count.

Another friend (a woman this time) told me about this privately, because she was getting fed up dancing with him when he couldn't count. Now since this other friend has had her own issues, with backleading and anticipating a lead or simply not following, I greeted the complaint with some degree of suspicion. But when I watched them, indeed, he was way off beat.

So she gave me the mission of somehow telling him that his counting was a problem, since the two of us were close enough that I could raise that issue in a funny way or at least non-threatening.

So the upshot is talk to someone who knows him, and let that person know that the counting is a problem.

However, that's not going to work unless the dude is taking privates with a teacher who actually cares enough to work on this stuff. Good luck!

[tsb]

edie's one of the people i studied with when i first started salsa. i have found her to be a exceedingly gracious person both on & off the floor & i admit i'm biased by that: i advocate following (& leading) to the best of your ability. while i don't agree entirely with where she's coming from sometimes, for those of you who have not visited the URL i recommend it.

i have found it helpful to frame my perspective this way "am i up to the challenge of making this partner look good/if i can make make this person look good i can make anybody look good"

i was dancing with a salsera i'd met at a party last saturday. it was funny in retrospect because i'd been sitting back & scoping hoping to find someone there who could dance - in a room full of cubans, no less - and noticed her dancing with her brother (their dad was the DJ). when i did eventually ask her to dance she looked at me kinda quizzically, hesitated, then agreed. within 30 seconds, the expression on her face changed and she asked me where i'd learned to dance. (it didn't occur to me that i had just been the subject of racial profiling or i might have quipped "pretty good for a asian, huh?"). anyway, after we had a wonderful dance together we agreed to do the next cha-cha together & so i went to ask the dj to play a cha cha since his daughter had agreed to dance one with me. <sigh> she insisted in breaking on the '1' no matter what i did and eventually she let go and starting shining. so i started doing shines on the '1' (trying not to grit my teeth because the cha-cha-cha on '4&1' couldn't have been more pronounced in the music) and couldn't have been happier when it was over. but i noticed that the dj (her father) gave me a big (& approving) smile when i walked her off the floor. mission accomplished.

[etchuck]

Definitely remember the days when I was learning salsa/merengue where the comments were, "You dance well for an Asian person" too. I'm sure many salseras looked at me kinda funny when I asked them for a lambada (when it was popular to dance lambada, mind you).

Oddly enough, those were the same comments I had from family members of friends attending this one Jewish wedding after having done many various Jewish circle dances (Havlah Nagilah [sp]).

As for being on-beat, I would say it helps to clap to the beats of each measure during a song, or at least to each QQS. That, and listening to a lot of music might help. Or maybe a lot of music with heavy downbeats.

[salsachinita]

Racial profiling is a curious one :? . I've been asked, repeatedly over the years: "Where/How do you learn to dance like that.......?!"

Then they gave me my nickname 8) .

*but I come from a long line of 'mutts' who also immigrated all over the place :wink: so all my life I've defied stereotypes of all sorts :roll: *

[tsb]

about ten years ago a japanese acquaintance of mine had to travel to minnesota for a funeral. he was born and raised in the (san fernando) valley. when he came back he told me about how many times people complimented him on the quality of his english. that cracked me up pretty good.

unfortunately profiling/discrimination still exists. and with all this tribalism going on i don't think it's going to get any better anytime soon.

[Genesius Redux]

about ten years ago a japanese acquaintance of mine had to travel to minnesota for a funeral. he was born and raised in the (san fernando) valley. when he came back he told me about how many times people complimented him on the quality of his english. that cracked me up pretty good.

Okay, man--I gotta tell you this story!

A couple of years ago, I had a friend who had an appointment with a teacher out at the studio where I was dancing. The teacher was Korean by birth, but adopted as an infant and raised in America--21 and cute as can be. My friend was in his 50s.

So before he showed up for his first lesson, I told him how talented and great his teacher was. "But," I added, "she's Korean, and her English is not the best. She's kind of sensitive about it. Just talk really slowly, and enunciate clearly, though, and she'll be fine."

Meanwhile, to his teacher, I said, "He's a fabulous guy, really nice. But," I added, "he's recently had a stroke that makes it a little difficult for him to process what you say and he's a little sensitive about it. Just speak slowly and enunciate clearly and he should be fine."

Then, on the day that he finally came in, I just sat back and watched the fun!

"Hi," my friend says. "It's,,,very,,,nice,,,to meet you."

"Thank you,"she says. "It's...nice,,,to meet...you...too."

:twisted:

[tsb]

about ten years ago a japanese acquaintance of mine had to travel to minnesota for a funeral. he was born and raised in the (san fernando) valley. when he came back he told me about how many times people complimented him on the quality of his english. that cracked me up pretty good.

Okay, man--I gotta tell you this story!

A couple of years ago, I had a friend who had an appointment with a teacher out at the studio where I was dancing. The teacher was Korean by birth, but adopted as an infant and raised in America--21 and cute as can be. My friend was in his 50s.

So before he showed up for his first lesson, I told him how talented and great his teacher was. "But," I added, "she's Korean, and her English is not the best. She's kind of sensitive about it. Just talk really slowly, and enunciate clearly, though, and she'll be fine."

Meanwhile, to his teacher, I said, "He's a fabulous guy, really nice. But," I added, "he's recently had a stroke that makes it a little difficult for him to process what you say and he's a little sensitive about it. Just speak slowly and enunciate clearly and he should be fine."

Then, on the day that he finally came in, I just sat back and watched the fun!

"Hi," my friend says. "It's,,,very,,,nice,,,to meet you."

"Thank you,"she says. "It's...nice,,,to meet...you...too."

:twisted:

why is it some of the funniest things are also somewhat cruel?

[Sagitta]

tis the way of life. Reality can be cruel, which is why so many have escapes, such as dance...

Racial profiling occurs, but I figure if I knew Spanish and improved on my salsa, I might be able to pass off as a Latino. As it is whenever I walk through the dr and pr areas of NYC and other places I'm mistaken for a Latino, as is my sister. It's only my mouth and dance that betrays me!! :wink:

[tsb]

tis the way of life. Reality can be cruel, which is why so many have escapes, such as dance...

don't get me wrong, i can be quite merciless, have everyone in stitches & yet leave no traces of blood.


Racial profiling occurs, but I figure if I knew Spanish and improved on my salsa, I might be able to pass off as a Latino. As it is whenever I walk through the dr and pr areas of NYC and other places I'm mistaken for a Latino, as is my sister. It's only my mouth and dance that betrays me!! :wink:

although i'm full-blooded chinese, i am often mistaken for filipino - to the extent that "f'lip"s will approach me and begin to speak to me in tagalog. i had one of my f'lip friends teach me the phrase 'i am not filipino' in tagalog so i could respond.

and if my chinese were better - and if my clothes didn't match & i were maybe 6" shorter, i might be mistaken for a chinese when i go shopping at an asian supermarket...

[borikensalsero]

I'm puerto rican, yet the anglo folks seem to always ask me if we make tacos at home. Do you like tacos? Your mom must make some awesome tacos! Do you understand spainsh from Spain? Listen, Does anyone in your family mow lawns? Talk about stereo-type... It used to bother me as a youngster, now I just laugh and make up things to tell them.

[danceguy]

I have a lot people out in the Salsa venues start talking to me in Spanish ...mistaking me for being a fluent speaker. I don't have any Hispanic features so sometimes I wonder. Many times they stop and say "oh, I thought you were Spanish,"...of course when they find out I can actually understand most of what they say they look at me even stranger. ;)

Boriken - I used to get the reverse from people who knew that I was Italian..."does your mother make Lasanga and spaghetti?" And I'd usually say "What do you think stupid? I only eat it 5 times a week...and yes, almost everyone in my family is named Tony...".

Some people. :roll:

[pygmalion]

Um. guys. Could we stay SOMEWHERE near on topic, pleeease? LOL.

That said, I had the same experience when I visited Africa. everybody spoke the native tongues to me. Never mind that I was dressed totally differently, carrying a back pack and ten shades lighter than everybody there. LOL. They called me obruni (white girl), but still spoke to me in twi, or ewe, or ga. what a laugh!

[danceguy]

Topic? Yikes, what's that? Hmm, I hadn't even noticed...let me see here...what to do when the leader is off beat...

I think that giving advice on the dance floor is always a no no...and unfortunately all I can say is just bear with it for the few minutes of the song, then RUN! :P

That being said, I dance with a lot of beginners who can't find the beat...and occasionaly some "advanced" Salseras that either backlead too much or step a bit too early. I know my timing is pretty good as I've worked hard with listening to lots of music and learning the individual instruments (thank you, Salsa Rhythms!).

If a lady asks me about timing, I will mention things like the conga, clave and maybe just count a few times for her, but if and only if she ASKS me. I never do this otherwise. I've met many women who will start counting and give me the "aww, you're a beginner, let me show you how its done," look, and they have bad frame, bad timing and sometimes bad breath on top of it! A surefire way to get on my blacklist with no hope of future redemption. :roll: :evil: :x

It is tough to dance with someone who doesn't feel the music...I was dancing in class last night with a lady who was almost a head taller than me and quite strong...and she was dancing in la-la land and trying to take me along for the ride. Finally I'd had enough and I made my lead somewhat forceful and started actually leading her...but it was very much like trying to break a wild mustang...:oops:

Ok, that was somewhat more on topic. ;)

Best,

[peachexploration]

bad timing and sometimes bad breath on top of it! A surefire way to get on my blacklist with no hope of future redemption. :roll: :evil: :x .....

:lol: :lol: :lol: Funny!

From Edie's Off-beat support group link:

My partner and I have won six competitions. He has no rhythm. He doesn't know where "1" is, nor "2", ... sometimes I think he dances on the five....

Another professional Salsa dancer friend of mine has also won major competitions, and her partner doesn't know where the "1" or "2" is either. Why? How is this possible? What were the judges thinking about?

Won six competitions? Yeah, WHAT were the judges thinking about? :shock:

[tsb]

bad timing and sometimes bad breath on top of it! A surefire way to get on my blacklist with no hope of future redemption. :roll: :evil: :x .....

:lol: :lol: :lol: Funny!

From Edie's Off-beat support group link:

My partner and I have won six competitions. He has no rhythm. He doesn't know where "1" is, nor "2", ... sometimes I think he dances on the five....

Another professional Salsa dancer friend of mine has also won major competitions, and her partner doesn't know where the "1" or "2" is either. Why? How is this possible? What were the judges thinking about?

Won six competitions? Yeah, WHAT were the judges thinking about? :shock:

i've seen her ex-partner salomon dance. incredible isolation with his lats. one of his nicknames is mr latin hips. as a matter of fact his website is:

http://latinhips.com

it's true though - he's as likely to be dancing on the '7' as on '1'.

[aragonh]

How did manage to get to that level of dancing when he has no (apparent) sense of rythm? :roll:

Good question! :shock: These people manage to do the impossible. :shock:


What should the follower do in this situation? :?

- Should she tell him he's off the beat, start counting out 1 2 3 and/or back-lead him? :shock:
- Should she hint he's off the beat, e.g., "you dance so fast I can't keep up! I think you have to slow down a bit for me"?
- Should she ignore the music and follow his pace whatever it is?
- Anything else?

Well do you know him? Is he a friend? If so, I would suggest telling him that he´s off beat and helping him with it. You could dance the basic step with him while counting to the beat. This may help a bit but won´t solve his problem. You could suggest that he listens to salsa all day long in order for it to sink in. This is how I did it and I was a real trouble case (completely hopeless at the time). :oops: :oops: A good song for him to listen to is "Salsa con Cadela" from Miguel Yamba. I would suggest he turn off the light, lie down on the bed, put the song on very loud and close his eyes. He should put the song on automatic repeat mode and listen to it as many times as possible. You can easily identify the clave (sometimes it´s clapped, other times you hear the two wooden sticks...). Afterwards he should do this with a number of other songs which have a constant beat and are easy to follow like:

"La Joda" - La Sonora Carroseles
"Yamulemau" - Joe Arroyo
"Betece" - Africando

Then when he starts understanding the basic rhythm pattern he should start to tackle other more complicated salsas with varying rhythm.



I would agree with MacMato.

there is also a salsa track out there that counts the beats for you.
(I believe it is Eddie Torres counting the beats, but dont know. )

I amiably refer it as the Voice of God track,

[brujo]

I find that this is a skill that needs to be learned, reinforced and practiced.

Most men I know will focus on the fancy steps and shines and all the aesthetics of salsa, but they never bother to learn about timing, rhythm and staying on beat. This is sad because a fancy move or a nice styling move might impress your partner for six seconds, but a song danced with feeling, playing with the music, predicting and anticipating the music, both in structure and instruments, will make the other person want to dance with you again and again.

When I dance with beginners, I try to stay on beat despite their own footing, it is easy when you are the leader. I had women try to tap out the beat on my shoulder while we were dancing, don't do this, it is annoying and makes the man more self conscious and completely panic. If he is a good friend, point it out. If not, then just bear with him for the duration of the song. There is nothing you can really do without hurting his ego.

[delamusica]

It seems to me that beggining guys who can't find the beat usually rush through the basic - sometimes you can slow them down by dragging a bit when following . . . though usually you just have to grin and bear it.

My partner and I used to drive around listening to cd after cd of dance music and he'd practice counting - first just one thru four and then working on the difference between one and five. Now, years later, he's a teacher with fantastic timing! Listening really is everything.

[salsachinita]

- sometimes you can slow them down by dragging a bit when following . . . .

Just experienced this last night, though the guy is not a beginner. He was simply doing a different timing (being a Latino from Central America, while we were dancing to live Cuban Timba :shock: ) to how I'd like to interprete the music being played at the time....

The deliberate 'dragging' helped up to a point, just to accentuate the Cuban groove (IMO very important especially to live music), but I had to follow his leads whenever he was handing them to me.....all I could do was to just take my time with them :wink: ........I think it worked. We had a blast!

[Sabor]

8) aaah.. imagine all the wonderful things that happen when peole just take their time to relate.. and let/feel the juice sink in :D Good for u Chinita.. i sense u are one tres magnifique salsera 8) .. as if the sexy looks weren't enough! :wink:

[salsachinita]

8) aaah.. imagine all the wonderful things that happen when peole just take their time to relate..

So true. Far too many people out there rush through/showcase moves after moves.......missing out on the journey itself.

I know next to no tricks, and my multiple spins/speeds are nowhere near examplery.........yet I become truly alive only because salsa breathes on my soul.

i sense u are one tres magnifique salsera 8) .. as if the sexy looks weren't enough! :wink:

:oops: :oops: :oops:

........you are too kind......

[squirrel]

I have had many experiences with off-the-beat leaders... i was an off-the-beat follower... my advice is: LISTEN TO SALSA MUSIC! always, not only when you dance. i listen to salsa music in my office, at home ... wherever i can!
hope this helps...
as for those 'cursed' to dance with the 'off-beater' - either bear it in silence and never dance with him/her again or tell them... as i usually do... just tell them they're off-beat completely or they're skipping steps...

[MapleLeaf Salsero]

This is sad because a fancy move or a nice styling move might impress your partner for six seconds, but a song danced with feeling, playing with the music, predicting and anticipating the music, both in structure and instruments, will make the other person want to dance with you again and again.
I agree with you Brujo. Try to explain that to a pattern dancer (copyright: SD) though...

[SDsalsaguy]

a pattern dancer (copyright: SD)
:lol:

Feel free to use the term as you wish ML... consider it an open domain phrasing! :lol:

[Vin]

I think one should distinguish between what we are talking about and a pattern dancer. If I understand correctly a pattern dancer might actually hear the rhythm and dance to it. They simply are unable to disconnect various moves from each other and therefore they do the same thing over and over again with an inability to dance with someone who is unfamiliar with the pattern. This is normally the result of a teacher who wanted students to quickly get to the point of being flashy dancers and so taught a bunch of things in sequence. They may or may not be in time with the music.
What we are talking about here I would call a moves master, someone who knows alot of moves and they might even lead decently, if one is able to totally disconnect the dancing from the music. Unfortunately for the moves master one normally dances to music. This is normally seen in those who learn to dance to the music before they learn to appreciate the music.

[borikensalsero]

I think one should distinguish between what we are talking about and a pattern dancer. If I understand correctly a pattern dancer might actually hear the rhythm and dance to it. They simply are unable to disconnect various moves from each other and therefore they do the same thing over and over again with an inability to dance with someone who is unfamiliar with the pattern. This is normally the result of a teacher who wanted students to quickly get to the point of being flashy dancers and so taught a bunch of things in sequence. They may or may not be in time with the music.
What we are talking about here I would call a moves master, someone who knows alot of moves and they might even lead decently, if one is able to totally disconnect the dancing from the music. Unfortunately for the moves master one normally dances to music. This is normally seen in those who learn to dance to the music before they learn to appreciate the music.

I think of a pattern dancer and a move master as the same. Whether they dance on beat or off beat. The reason why I see them the same is that neither are worried about connection to more than just dancing on beat, or trying to dance on beat. Actually thinking that because they are dancing on beat they are connecting to the music. In all, a move master to me is he who knows a million and one moves yet despite how well the are on beat, they have no connection to the muisc, hence what I also refer to as a pattern dancer. Someone who is basically out there to do moves. Must admit though, that I got a little lost reading your last paragraph. :oops:

[Vin]

It was kind of meant as a bit of a joke. But yeah I see what you are saying.

[africana]

And more importantly,

What should the follower do in this situation? :?

- Should she tell him he's off the beat, start counting out 1 2 3 and/or back-lead him? :shock:
- Should she hint he's off the beat, e.g., "you dance so fast I can't keep up! I think you have to slow down a bit for me"?
- Should she ignore the music and follow his pace whatever it is?
- Anything else?

Well I don't really agree with the majority of opinions not to say anything about the problem.
- if I did the asking the first time, I won't ask him again
- if he did the asking, and is not a "regular" I won't say anything. I would merely attempt some 'redemption' tactics like slowing down, etc
- But if he IS a regular asker, I will tell him about it somehow by hinting at it, for example asking "what count are you on?"
That question seems to do the trick for more experienced leads as it's not head-on critical. There are other ways to hint at it.
For some beginners I can just ask them to slow down a bit, or something similar.
I am sometimes more direct about the problem, but mostly after I become more friendly with him and with as much tact as possible

But overall, being off-beat can be such a widespread problem that it doesn't help anyone by not saying anything. These dancers go on to dance for years, learning a lot of advanced moves but never being able to break the habit because everyone is too polite to help them

Also note that in salsa scenes where there are usually more skilled women than men, so IMO the guys can afford to "dispense" with women who do not follow well or dance off-beat. But for the women, it's in their best interest to cultivate and accomodate as many guys as possible because there aren't that many choices.
This is also why women often won't say anything if the lead is off

[hopelessly_addicted]

gosh I danced with 2 off-beat leads tonight... what a turn-off... And one of the guys teach! :evil: :twisted: Actually, this guy may be what Vin called eariler a "moves master"... He leads the patterns nicely enough, just dances very remotely from the music! arrrggghhh :evil:

[BrookeErin]

I was pondering this just last night. For all extents and purposes, I consider myself a beginner. I have been dancing salsa for almost 11 months, and just finished the second beginner class (but my first class - considering my time in the scene, they figured I would be fine and I was). However, I have a background that I believe has given me a good sense of rhythm. (I have taken classes and danced swing, hip-hop, and belly dancing... plus other various classes when I was a child. I also spent 5 years as a cheerleader - you have to have a shared rhythm for that... and I spent about 5 years in Gospel choirs) Gee, I'm practically a metranome; I find myself tapping a steady beat when I am sitting still in a room without music.

I have a friend who often complains about other salser@s being "off beat". Usually when I have danced with those salseros, if I simply follow we both have a good dance. Last night, I tried to find the beat myself with one and I think it hurt the dance. Is there one beat or other acceptable "beats"? Is there a difference between being on the beat and riding the music? Is it a form of stylization? I wish I could just show you the local scene to get an opinion.

I think I have probably fallen prey to stepping too quickly, probably excited by a fast song. I don't think I do it much any more, but I've noticed guys slowing me down. They never say anything, just in their lead... and I know and am slightly embarrassed, but they are kind and subtle, and I'm glad they do. Like I said, I consider myself a beginner (but a beginner who can certainly keep up).

[Sagitta]

Many beats: on1, on2, on3 and on4. In son you actually start dancing on beat 4.

[Alias]

I have a friend who often complains about other salser@s being "off beat". Usually when I have danced with those salseros, if I simply follow we both have a good dance. Last night, I tried to find the beat myself with one and I think it hurt the dance.
Is there one beat or other acceptable "beats"?
Is there a difference between being on the beat and riding the music?

Interesting remark and good questions (the way it is formulated, I think you already have an idea about the answers).

Is there one beat or other acceptable "beats"?

In salsa music there seem to be many acceptable "beats" to start with or to break on, then you can keep the ability to anchor on any given point (for example as a leader I've followed on 1 (LA) and on 2 (P2) and on 2 (ET2) classes and adopted in each case the corresponding step and timing following the start count of the teacher, and concerning followers it would be in social dancing to fit the leader's choice, that could be seen as a part of the following job to understand the leader's understanding of the music (in the case he has one!)), or you can get more used to one particular choice and find the others odd (then have the feeling of your partner not being on the "right" beat).

I also think that there are rather different kinds of salsa music and the situation is not the same for each (for example for some kind of salsa music I find myself able to start or break more or less on many points then having to make an arbitrary choice, but for some kind of salsa music (for example best suited to mambo (cbl slotted salsa)) I obviously get only one way (timing) to fit the moves in the music), and it can even depend on the piece of salsa music that would more or less or not favor one way, then focus on following the music rather than count and arbitrarily always break on a given beat.

Is there a difference between being on the beat and riding the music?

Very good question, short answer because I've got to leave, I wanted to say: focus on following the music (global structure and local elements) with feeling rather than focus on beats and counts ...

[Sagitta]

Always follow the music. You ask people from Cuba and elsewhere about the beat and they will look at you as if you are crazy.

[salsera]

I was pondering this just last night. For all extents and purposes, I consider myself a beginner. I have been dancing salsa for almost 11 months, and just finished the second beginner class (but my first class - considering my time in the scene, they figured I would be fine and I was). However, I have a background that I believe has given me a good sense of rhythm. (I have taken classes and danced swing, hip-hop, and belly dancing... plus other various classes when I was a child. I also spent 5 years as a cheerleader - you have to have a shared rhythm for that... and I spent about 5 years in Gospel choirs) Gee, I'm practically a metranome; I find myself tapping a steady beat when I am sitting still in a room without music.

I have a friend who often complains about other salser@s being "off beat". Usually when I have danced with those salseros, if I simply follow we both have a good dance. Last night, I tried to find the beat myself with one and I think it hurt the dance. Is there one beat or other acceptable "beats"? Is there a difference between being on the beat and riding the music? Is it a form of stylization? I wish I could just show you the local scene to get an opinion.

I think I have probably fallen prey to stepping too quickly, probably excited by a fast song. I don't think I do it much any more, but I've noticed guys slowing me down. They never say anything, just in their lead... and I know and am slightly embarrassed, but they are kind and subtle, and I'm glad they do. Like I said, I consider myself a beginner (but a beginner who can certainly keep up).

I never had a problem finding the beat when dancing. I have had leaders who had no concept of beat, and it is very difficult to dance with them. My body naturally wants to follow the beat of the music, but the partner is pushing me in other places! It can be very frustrating, even if it's only for a two minute song.

I am a musician, and this helps me feel the beat. I never have to count in my head when I'm dancing. I can just feel where my feet need to be. I think dancing other dance styles helps with this problem a lot. Also, I listen to a lot of salsa music...at work, in the car, at home, etc!!