Outside Swivels in International Tango

[gclarke]

How many versions of the Outside Swivel are there in International Tango?

Victor Sylvesters book decribes 3, and Alex Moores book describes another as "Outside Swivel from an Open Promenade".

[Joe]

It's not how many swivels there are, it's how many entries there are. At least 3 in the syllabus.

[gclarke]

It's not how many swivels there are, it's how many entries there are. At least 3 in the syllabus.
You mean a swivel is a swivel is a swivel but the way it starts and ends may different?

[gclarke]

mmm just thinking. I've been trying to read about 'flicks' in Tango without any success. Are they something that is added wherever rather than a seperate/different step?

[and123]

You mean a swivel is a swivel is a swivel but the way it starts and ends may different?

Correct, and also total amount of turn over the complete step, depending on entry and exit points.

By "flicks", do you mean brush tap?

[jerseydancer]

As of my understanding, "flick" is different from "brush tap". "flick" is a quick movement for the lady to switch from promenade position to close, or from closed position to promenade. We do it on one count of quick.

[gclarke]

Well it may be the way we Brits use our terminology but a flick to me (and that was what our instructors word) is the lady bringing her heel towards her butt (to use the American word) before it comes forward. In this case we are in promenade position.

In another type of tango there is a 'flick' or picardo described as
A flicking upward of the heel when turning or stepping forward. Usually done as an advanced embellishment.

This would fit the bill but I'm not sure if that is normally done in International Standard or if it is something our instructor added for our entertainment :).

[and123]

First instance sounds like brush tap (though obviously we do not literally kick ourselves in the butt). In outside swivels, there is the option to bring the foot of the non-supporting leg up in front (right foot) when stepping backwards outside partner prior to the swiveling action. Is that perhaps what you were shown?

[callen]

Others have responded about the swivel, and I agree.

gclarke, your quote on the other is good. My thoughts went immediately Argentine tango (though they do with all styling since that's the origin). The key is "embellishment." Whether your free foot rises or remains on the floor does not change that you're swiveling over the other foot. Flick happens most easily when you're quickly switching from swiveling in one direction to the other on the same foot, however the switch of direction is not necessary. Speed changes and the like can also facilitate them. You might want to look at ochos (the origin of swivels in international) in Argentine tango and on embellishments that happen with them.

Christopher

[BlueBambue]

My tango routine in for a performance at college had this one step that had both flicks and swivels in them, I had though it was a made up move that didn't actually exst and just looked cool.

We do some promenade close-ish thing, where the guy ends up slightly in front of us, we flick our right foot between his legs, then step forward onto our right foot, swivel, step, swivel.

If that is the flick that you are describing, then it was just an embelishment before the swivels. It was definitally a "kick yourself in the butt" motion, but through the lead's leg.

[BallandChange]

In another type of tango there is a 'flick' or picardo described as
A flicking upward of the heel when turning or stepping forward. Usually done as an advanced embellishment.

This would fit the bill but I'm not sure if that is normally done in International Standard or if it is something our instructor added for our entertainment :).

GClarke, the latin dances also have flicks, commonly found in the Jive.

[gclarke]

Thanks everyone. This is all good stuff. I will read up the brush tap tomorrow.

I have yet to come across a flick in any other dance yet but it's still very early days.

We do Rock and Roll rather than Jive but it is soooo not my dance. I have great trouble keeping the rythm but that's another story!

[Peaches]

My guess is that the "flick" you're describing is a made up (for Int. Tango, with the idea borrowed from AT) for your entertainment.

WRT the "flick" between the gent's legs that another poster described, it sound like that would be an Int. Tango take on an Argentine gancho.

[and123]

It also occurs in a step in American Smooth Tango (which I highly doubt is being taught in this case)

[Peaches]

The flick thing, or the gancho thing, or both? I know I've seen the gancho-ish thingy done in American...good call on that one.

[gclarke]

Morning all. This should make my attempts at describing the 'flick' a bit clearer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0GVZE6ZGww

At 1 minute and 2 seconds - she 'flicks'. There is one a little earlier but not so clear. I think this is American Smooth Tango? It certainly look ways smoother than what we are doing. Perhaps someone would enlighten me if I'm wrong.

I would be interested in knowing the name of the step(s) and whether that IS an embellishement used wherever or a step in it's own right.

And before I get told off for my 'book and video learning', I'm just interested. It doesn't affect my dancing at all.;)

Going back to the Swivel I've just looked at this
http://www.ballroomdancers.com/Media2/Default.asp?ID=400

My concept of 'what is a swivel' is a little shaky now. I know I have a clip very similar to what we dance on one of my video somewhere. I'll see if I can clip a small piece.

[Larinda McRaven]

That "flick" is just bad styling.

[gclarke]

That "flick" is just bad styling.

Morning Larinda (or is it evening for you?)

What do you mean by that? Is it something that shouldn't be there at all?

[Larinda McRaven]

late night, early morning... anyway it is time for bed.

I would never do that. It is just chessy and unless it is going to be lead by the guy, it has no business being there. She just hikes up her leg for no reason other than goofy "American" styling trying to imitate goofy "Argentine" styling. It is just bad.

[gclarke]

Ok - this may or may not work - I don't have any experience of putting video on websites etc. but here is a clip. It's a quicktime .mov file which I think most people should be able to play. Tango Clip (http://www.dance4all.org.uk/tangoclip2.mov) about 12 seconds in slow motion.

This is exactly what we do in our routine the only difference being right at the end where there is a sharp move to face one another again. We stay in promenade. Other than that it's verbatim.

I think we have (and feel free to correct me :))
SS 2 walks
QQS QQS Open Reverse Turn

Then comes the Swivel

My Alex Moore book seems to describe it best when he talks about The Outside Swivel
Lady
S Take the weight forward to RF, outside partner and swivel to the R on RF to face LOD allowing LF to close near RF without weight, end in PP.
Q LF forward in PP moving in a direction diag. to wall
Q Turning to L to get square to man, place RF to the side of LF without weight. Now backing diag. to wall.

We don't actually do that last QQ not that that's relevant to the question.

So my question is ..... which bit is actually the swivel technically speaking - the S or the QQ or the whole SQQ?

Although Alex Moore mentions the swivel on the S step when I look at the Ballrom Dancers video (American) I mentioned in my previous post, this seems different.

I think my beginners eyes are seeing it more from what's happening with the feet rather than the body? We are encouraged to lift our foot quite high on the S but I think that may be just a beginners things.

[Josh]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0GVZE6ZGww


Yeah, some "instructional DVD"... sheesh, perhaps the lady would appreciate him getting his freaking head out of her space at least once.

[gclarke]

Yeah, some "instructional DVD"... sheesh, perhaps the lady would appreciate him getting his freaking head out of her space at least once.
:uplaugh: I guess you weren't that impressed then Josh?

[Me]

I would never do that. It is just chessy and unless it is going to be lead by the guy, it has no business being there. She just hikes up her leg for no reason other than goofy "American" styling trying to imitate goofy "Argentine" styling. It is just bad.

Yep. It is also a very foolish thing to teach beginners because they'll kick the daylights out of each other at dance socials.

[gclarke]

Yep. It is also a very foolish thing to teach beginners because they'll kick the daylights out of each other at dance socials. Yes that's true. Yesterday the couple next to us danced into our path during class and we moved according ending up quite close to the instructor and his wife. Fortunately he had decided to stop for 'the new bit' and looked over his shoulder and winked saying 'I wouldn't stand there if I were you'.:)

[Peaches]

Yep. It is also a very foolish thing to teach beginners because they'll kick the daylights out of each other at dance socials.Well, now...don't be so hasty! That could be very useful at times.

[KCBallroom]

Yep. It is also a very foolish thing to teach beginners because they'll kick the daylights out of each other at dance socials.

But they like it. It's looks cool and they are like little kids reach for everything that shines and don't care how it's done.

Beginners also think that it takes one week to learn how to dance . Thanks DWTS :)

Yeah, some "instructional DVD"... sheesh, perhaps the lady would appreciate him getting his freaking head out of her space at least once.

Some instructional indeed. I don't even know were to start -)

Josh, he can't! Look at how her left side along with her head is lowered and her head is falling over the couple's right side. I don't need to tell you how heavy this is ;) It's like sinking ship that is sinking to the right side. Even if he doesn't know it, his brain does. He has to support and compensate that weight and the only three things he can do is 1) turn his head towards her and move his left side away from her falling right side (his right shoulder will stay in place) 2) Turn his head to the left and move more body weight to the left BUT it will result in his right shoulder being in her face and broken right side.3) STOP dancing. The first one at least keeps the look. He MUST put more weight on the other side! or the couple will simply fall. He is OUT of her space (only with his head turned towards her) otherwise he would've fallen onto his right side and loose his balance... at 6:13 she says "Look in your own window"...-) but she doesn't follow her own advice..she is falling from that window from 10 story building and about to hit the ground. Welcome to the laws of physics :uplaugh:

Back to the swivels and flicks:

Like Joe (http://www.dance-forums.com/member.php?u=1331) said: swivel is a swivel and the only entrance is different and as for the flicks: that "movement" must be initiated and controlled through various groups of muscles (leg, side, back) so it looks/feels connected to the swivel, presiding and following step and not just like "heel hitting your butt" what if it gets stuck in there how ru gonna swivel your way out of it?! -) It's easier to show. It will be impossible for me to write about it and I challenge anyone who can :friend:

[synchronicity]

gclarke: the video clip that you uploaded played fine for me.


Then comes the Swivel

My Alex Moore book seems to describe it best when he talks about The Outside Swivel
Lady
S Take the weight forward to RF, outside partner and swivel to the R on RF to face LOD allowing LF to close near RF without weight, end in PP.
Q LF forward in PP moving in a direction diag. to wall
Q Turning to L to get square to man, place RF to the side of LF without weight. Now backing diag. to wall.

...

So my question is ..... which bit is actually the swivel technically speaking - the S or the QQ or the whole SQQ?

Although Alex Moore mentions the swivel on the S step when I look at the Ballrom Dancers video (American) I mentioned in my previous post, this seems different.This is why, if you don't mind me saying, some people have been advising you to lay off the project of connecting what you've learnt with what you read in books, and to just trust your teacher more.

A 'swivel' is, on its own, just a particular movement. It can be incorporated into a number of different figures, all of which have their own names but which combine swivelling actions with other kinds of actions. I'm sure there are some people in this forum who can name you at least 100 figures that make use of the swivelling action for the lady on one step or another.

If you get stuck on thinking, "this figure is what my instructor taught me, and I look it up, and it's called an outside swivel, so that's what a swivel is," you'll be doing yourself a disservice.

An "Outside Swivel" in Tango is basically, for the lady, the following action: Walk outside partner onto right foot, then swivel on it. You land in Promenade. That all takes place on the S count of the SQQ. The QQ is a closing action called the "Promenade link", which involves another swivelling action: this time, you walk from Promenade onto your left foot (Q) and then swivel sharply to close to man in closed position (Q).

When you move on to advanced figures in the Waltz and Foxtrot, you'll see that this basic component can be used there too.

In the American Tango clip you linked to, what's being demonstrated is simply the American figure known as the Promenade, with a swivelling action from the lady on the 2nd Slow count. Notice she steps onto her left foot on that count in PP, then swivels sharply on that foot into closed position. The 2nd S of this figure is basically equivalent, in terms of lady's action, to the QQ in the International Outside Swivel.

So that's the basic answer to your question.

But what I'm trying to get at is this: the best way to 'understand' what a swivelling action is, is to have some experience doing all kinds of different actions in different figures, and asking yourself what the swivelling action in all of them have in common.

At some point in your dance learning career, you'll be able to say: now, what is basically a 'swivel'? and how is it different from, say, a 'pivot' or a 'spin'? At this point, as a beginner, you could come to the forum to ask, get a wordy description on exactly what those differences are, but it won't help you, in my opinion.

In other words: I think you should trust your teacher, because he or she is showing you right now the basic repertoire of fundamental movements in the ballroom dances, even if there's no explanation given at this point. The understanding will come later.

[gclarke]

Thanks for the input everyone. I'll come back and read again tomorrow. My bedtime here.

synchronicity - Just wanted to make it clear that it's not a question of not trusting my teacher. Just a lack of opportunity to ask questions.

This will change in time as I start my private lessons - I hope :D

[Josh]

:uplaugh: I guess you weren't that impressed then Josh?

I wasn't hoping to be impressed at all, and an instructional DVD isn't really supposed to impress, but it should demonstrate good fundamentals. With the monkey-see monkey-do nature of humans, especially in the dance world, people do what they see you do, not just what you tell them. Men will watch that and naturally think that it's okay in ballroom tango to do what he's doing, and they will do it. Especially on a DVD which will theoretically reach many people, a big thing like that had better not be in it.