Pro versus am

[Bolero]

Can someone please explain the difference between a pro dancer and an am dancer. I've been reading here and don't quite get it.
If both can teach and get paid for it what's the diff?

[Indiana_Jay]

Can someone please explain the difference between a pro dancer and an am dancer. I've been reading here and don't quite get it. If both can teach and get paid for it what's the diff?

Bolero:

The definition of pro and amateur varies between organizations that sanction competitions. I have no idea what organizations sanction competitions in Canada, but you can probably find their Web sites, download their rules and find their definitions within.

USA Dance, Inc., is one of a couple organizations that sanction competitions in the United States. By its definition, a dancer is a pro if he/she either competes as a pro (including as the pro of a pro-am couple) or declares himself/herself to be a pro.

Technically that means a dancer can earn money as an instructor and still be considered an amateur under USA Dance rules (as long as the instructor doesn't compete with a student in a pro-am event).

I sense from the way you worded your question that you wonder why dancers would be allowed to make money as instructors and still be considered amateurs. Unfortunately, I have no insight as to why the USA Dance rules read as they do -- I only know how they read! Others on this forum might be able to provide more background information.

[liz]

I just had a light bulb moment. Haven't been able to understand either. Think i understand now. Am partners can teach, but aren't allowed to win money. In pro/am the am can not teach but can win money. Yhe reason to stay an am is to be able to competed with others outside of the states and to maybe dance in the olympics. You can't be a pro in any field and be in the olympics.. Is this about right?

[mamboqueen]

I just had a light bulb moment. Haven't been able to understand either. Think i understand now. Am partners can teach, but aren't allowed to win money. In pro/am the am can not teach but can win money. Yhe reason to stay an am is to be able to competed with others outside of the states and to maybe dance in the olympics. You can't be a pro in any field and be in the olympics.. Is this about right?

Not entirely. I think there have been prizes, money included, in some am/am events, although I don't think they're termed "scholarships" -- someone can correct me if I'm wrong.

To be honest, I have read the definitions in the NDCA rule book and I'm just not finding them to be very clear to me. I'm actually communicating with Judi Hatton on this now because it dawned on me that I just registered as an "am" to meet the rules to do Yankee as an am/am, but I haven't necessarily stopped competing pro/am either. A little murkiness I'm trying to clear up. I'll let you know what I find out.

[fascination]

only will add that we have a stockload of threads that might help if one does a search

[madmaximus]

Usually defined by the sanctioning organization one chooses to be a member of.

As FASC alluded to, we've a number of threads on the subject.

IMO there is a vast difference between a teacher of dance and a person who dances for a profession.

The two aren't mutually exclusive, but different enough to make a distinction.

Why they aren't made distinct of each other (and kept murky) is another story.




m

[ChaChaMama]

I am not the best person to clarify this as I am only a lowly syllabus am, but here's the basic deal.

WHY SO-CALLED AMATEURS ARE ALLOWED TO TEACH FOR A LIVING. There have been many permutations in USABDA/USA Dance rules under which amateurs could teach for a living over the years, with the current rules being the most liberal (at least in recent times). Other countries allow amateurs to teach, so I think USA Dance feels they must allow amateurs to teach...otherwise, there is a lot of financial pressure to turn pro in your early twenties. The U.S. government doesn't subsidize you, the prize money for scholarships isn't much, and dancing is an expensive activity once you factor in coaching, traveling, etc. Even if you have sponsors for costumes and shoes, all the rest of those expenses have to come from somewhere, and Mom and Dad may not be willing to subsidize indefinitely.

WHAT ARE THE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN PRO AND AM?
Both amateurs and pros CAN dance for prize money.

At USA Dance Nationals Baltimore 2008, the prizes in open championships were:
1st $500, 2nd $400 3rd $300 4th $200 5th $150 6th $100
I think that is the best it has ever been, and "Yay!" to whoever made that happen.

It is fairly typical for open pro purses to be approximately twice that. I have the Yankee Classic packet on the table in front of me, and it is
Open Pro
1st $1000 2nd $800 3rd $600 4th $500 5th $400
6th $300

Rising Star
1st $400 2nd $350 3rd $300 4th $200 5th $150 6th $100

Amateurs, however, CANNOT dance as the pro in pro-am. In the U.S. system, much of the money is in pro-am (Actually, the highest earnings probably go to highly ranked professionals who can pick and choose who to coach and get paid top dollar for it...but obviously there are a lot more people who will aspire to that lofty status than will succeed.)

Here are the Yankee Classic Top Teacher prizes:
1st $2500 (w/min of 125 pts) or $5000 (w/min of 285 pts)
2nd $1000 (w/min of 115 pts) or $2200 (w/min of 265 pts)
3rd $750 (w/min of 110 pts) or $1500 (w/min of 250 pts)
4th $500 (w/min of 100 pts) or $1200 (w/min of 230 pts)
5th $350 (w/min of 100 pts) or $1100 (w/min of 220 pts)
6th $300 (w/min of 100 pts) or $1000 (w/min of 200 pts)

Now, I have no idea how typical Yankee Classic is, and whether its top teacher prizes are typical of the industry or more generous than average, but you will note that the1st place top teacher could potentially take home 5 times as much prize money as the open professional championship couple, and that the 6th place top teacher could potentially take home as much prize money as the 1st place open pro championship couple. (And that is in addition to the money paid by pro-am students to their respective pros to compete!)

Don't know if that helps, but this is what I have observed.

[Laura]

You can't be a pro in any field and be in the olympics.. Is this about right?
No, this is not right at all. It was right about 30 years ago, but things have changed drastically since then.

[Laura]

I'm actually communicating with Judi Hatton on this now because it dawned on me that I just registered as an "am" to meet the rules to do Yankee as an am/am, but I haven't necessarily stopped competing pro/am either. A little murkiness I'm trying to clear up. I'll let you know what I find out.
Unless you are teaching, MQ, you can register as an Amateur with the NDCA, compete in Amateur events, and still dance as the Am in Pro/Am events. That is my current situation, in fact.

[Easy]

I only know that I saved a ton of money by switching to Geico........not, but I just wanted to post something stupid for my 1000th post :)

[mamboqueen]

Unless you are teaching, MQ, you can register as an Amateur with the NDCA, compete in Amateur events, and still dance as the Am in Pro/Am events. That is my current situation, in fact.

ahh...someone already did the research...I was hoping so - thanks!

[Laura]

Yes of course, it would be ridiculous otherwise. Basically, the definition of "am" in Pro/Am is simply more restrictive than the definition of "Am" in "Amateur." So long as you personally follow the more restrictive rules (for Pro/Am) then of course you can dance in both categories.

[mamboqueen]

I only know that I saved a ton of money by switching to Geico........not, but I just wanted to post something stupid for my 1000th post :)

lmao! you're too funny!

[mamboqueen]

Yes of course, it would be ridiculous otherwise. Basically, the definition of "am" in Pro/Am is simply more restrictive than the definition of "Am" in "Amateur." So long as you personally follow the more restrictive rules (for Pro/Am) then of course you can dance in both categories.

yeah, but the way I read the rules is that what makes you a pro/am is competing in scholarship events. So, if you read it, you could be a pro/am and still fit the definition under section 2 (am), and you're just a pro/am under section 3 because of the scholarship money. So, what if you were a pro/am and skipped doing scholarships because you wanted to teach?

Okay; it's getting late and I'm probably not making much sense here. All I can say is...I read a lot of rules during the course of my job and I really haven't come across many that are less clear to me than these.

Edit...and I have no intentions of teaching; I'm just wishing these rules were easier to comprehend.

[Laura]

What does Scholarship money have to do with it? Amateurs are allowed to win Scholarships too. What makes you a Pro/Am is being an Amateur who dances in a competitive event with a Professional. And if you are going to be an Amateur who dances in a competitive event with a Professional, then the NDCA doesn't want you also to be a teacher. If you want to be an Amateur who teaches, then the NDCA doesn't want you to enter Pro/Am events. That's all it is.

[reb]

I only know that I saved a ton of money by switching to Geico........not, but I just wanted to post something stupid for my 1000th post :)
eeaaassyyy Easy

Great post!

[reb]

What does Scholarship money have to do with it? Amateurs are allowed to win Scholarships too. What makes you a Pro/Am is being an Amateur who dances in a competitive event with a Professional. And if you are going to be an Amateur who dances in a competitive event with a Professional, then the NDCA doesn't want you also to be a teacher. If you want to be an Amateur who teaches, then the NDCA doesn't want you to enter Pro/Am events. That's all it is.
You're right Laura.

It can be easy . . . its a challenge because everyone is not monolithic (square pegs and round holes ) . . .

Pro - earn their living the hard way - on the hardwoord floor everyday, listening to beautiful music, doing what they love and/or have to do for a living.

Amateur - either (a) on their way to Pro (see above), and/or (b) enjoying their fulfilling hobby. If on their way to Pro they typically don't earn their living forever as an Amateur - its a phase they are going through - and they're working hard.

Pro/Am Student - along with their fellow Amateurs in the "not earning a living from their hobby" group. If one wants to teach and earn some revenue, or your living, from dancing, then remove yourself from the pro/am category.

And of course, we're all here to have fun and we all love dancing . . . and the devil is in the details :D;):tongue:

[mamboqueen]

What does Scholarship money have to do with it? Amateurs are allowed to win Scholarships too. What makes you a Pro/Am is being an Amateur who dances in a competitive event with a Professional. And if you are going to be an Amateur who dances in a competitive event with a Professional, then the NDCA doesn't want you also to be a teacher. If you want to be an Amateur who teaches, then the NDCA doesn't want you to enter Pro/Am events. That's all it is.

If the definition said what you typed above, it would be clear, but it doesn't. In fact, nowhere in the definition does it even say that a p/a s/d is dancing with a professional. Someone who never heard of pro/am would not know, after reading the rule, that a pro/am dancer is what you described. The rest of us would conclude that...but the point of a definition is to define something.

[Joe]

Unless you are teaching, MQ, you can register as an Amateur with the NDCA, compete in Amateur events, and still dance as the Am in Pro/Am events. That is my current situation, in fact.
Right, but even though you could compete in Amateur events, as long as you are dancing in Pro/Am as the amateur half, the NDCA won't allow you to teach. Correct?

[mamboqueen]

Right, but even though you could compete in Amateur events, as long as you are dancing in Pro/Am as the amateur half, the NDCA won't allow you to teach. Correct?

It doesn't say that in the rules either. At least not in the definitions section where it states that a pro/am student can't teach. That is why I contacted Judi. So, what I was specifically looking for is what rule applies to someone who falls under two definitions.

I don't really mean to belabor this. I just wish it was easier to figure out.

[samina]

If the definition said what you typed above, it would be clear, but it doesn't. In fact, nowhere in the definition does it even say that a p/a s/d is dancing with a professional. Someone who never heard of pro/am would not know, after reading the rule, that a pro/am dancer is what you described. The rest of us would conclude that...but the point of a definition is to define something.

that's true. it's only called out in the professional section (1), although it is alluded to in (3)a. on page 10, however, section (3)a, it does define a pro/am event to be a student dancer dancing with a pro.

[Purr]

I only know that I saved a ton of money by switching to Geico........not, but I just wanted to post something stupid for my 1000th post :)

Congratulations on your 1000th post! :)

[ChaChaMama]

I agree that the language could use some re-working.

I think the intent is fairly clear, though: the organization wants to keep pro-am a category principally for hobbyists. (Devoted, hard-working hobbyists in some/many cases, but not for the most part people who are de facto professionals just weeks away from officially declaring pro status.)

I think the NDCA wants to prohibit (to take an EXTREMELY far-fetched example in order to prove my point) Valentin Chmerkovskiy and Yuliya Zagouroychenko dancing together under the pro-am umbrella. I realize that would never happen anyway, but I think the NDCA wants to prohibit less extreme versions of the same kind of thing as well.

[Chris Stratton]

So, what I was specifically looking for is what rule applies to someone who falls under two definitions.

To enter a given category, you have to be eligible under the rules of that category.

Therefore, to enter two categories, you have to be eligible under the rules of both categories.

If the rules of the two categories conflict such that it's not possible to follow both at the same time, or that entering one category (ie, pro) is listed as a violation the rules for another category (amateur or pro/am student dancer) then you cannot do the combination of those categories.

[Laura]

Right, but even though you could compete in Amateur events, as long as you are dancing in Pro/Am as the amateur half, the NDCA won't allow you to teach. Correct?
Correct. You have to follow the most restrictive of the rules in order to dance in both.

[Laura]

It doesn't say that in the rules either. At least not in the definitions section where it states that a pro/am student can't teach. That is why I contacted Judi. So, what I was specifically looking for is what rule applies to someone who falls under two definitions.
Pro/Am Student Dancers are a "proper subset" (remember Venn diagrams from grade school) of Amateur Dancers. So if you follow the rules for the Pro/Am Student Dancers then you will of course still be able to dance in Amateur events. If you break the "no teaching, demonstrating, or giving shows for money" rule then you break out of the Pro/Am Student Dancer subset but will still be an Amateur.

[Laura]

If the rules of the two categories conflict such that it's not possible to follow both at the same time, or that entering one category (ie, pro) is listed as a violation the rules for another category (amateur or pro/am student dancer) then you cannot do the combination of those categories.
And to reiterate, the rules for Pro/Am Student Dancers and for Amateurs do not conflict in such a way, so A Pro/Am Student Dancer can do the combination of those categories.

[Chris Stratton]

Pro/Am Student Dancers are a "proper subset" (remember Venn diagrams from grade school) of Amateur Dancers. So if you follow the rules for the Pro/Am Student Dancers then you will of course be able to dance in Amateur events.

Only in general terms.

In terms of the NDCA rulebook, amateur and pro/am student dancer are separate categories, and pro/am student dancers are not automatically eligible to compete in the amateur categories. Pro/am student dancer is actually not a subset of Amateur, but instead it's own thing.

Admittedly the added requirement for amateur is fairly trivial: to be eligible in the amateur category you have to pay a yearly registration fee to the NDCA.

But fundamentally, they are separate categories under the rules. It so happens that you can do both, but only if you comply with all of the rules for each.

[Laura]

Well, I was just trying to make it easier to understand Chris.

The bottom line is that so long as someone doesn't declare themself a Professional by word or deed, doesn't teach/demonstrate/give shows for money, and DOES join the NDCA as an Amateur, then they can dance in both Pro/Am events (as the Am) and Amateur events.

It happens all the time, I'm at a loss as to why this has suddenly become such a big mystery.

[Larinda McRaven]

http://www.ballroom.to/pro vs am.jpg

[Chris Stratton]

Something of little real-world importance but which could be improved in the rulebook is the case of student/student events.

The one place these are mentioned is where it says that a pro/am student dancer dancing in a student/student event does not have to register as an amateur competitor.

- this suggests that "dances with a pro" is properly not part of the formal definition of pro/am student dancer, but instead that the definition of a pro/am event is where the "pro/am sutdent dancer dancing with a professional" bit is specified.

- what is unclear is if a registered amateur competitor who teaches is elgible to dance in a student/student event. Why they'd want to is an open question... except perhaps to do it with their student as an end-run around the ban on working as the "pro" in pro/am events.

[Laura]

Well, Chris and I disagree minorly, but here is what we've got:

|____________|
|...................|
|....Amateur....|
|...................|
|....|--------|...|
|....|Pro/Am|...|
|....|--------|...|
|...................|
|____________|

It's rough, but there is an outer box labeled "Amateur", and an inner box labled "Pro/AM". All the little dots are there to space out the box edges, they don't mean anything. If you break the Pro/Am rule about teaching, demonstratring, or giving shows for money they you bust out of eligibility for being a Pro/Am Student Dancer. However if you stay in that box by not breaking that rule, then you can do both Pro/AM as the am and regular Amateur events.

Chris would probably make this diagram with two completely separate boxes, with a note stating that Pro/Am student dancers may also dance in regular Amateur events.

[mamboqueen]

great...another wrench, thanks Chris!

You know, Laura kind of hit the nail on the head in pm to me -- I'm probably a little overly discerning about this stuff given that I read legal documents all day at work. I've also had the pleasure of working on bylaws for the local community organization. So, okay, I'm a bit of a stickler...I like things to be clear and easy. To me...define things in the section that is entitled "definitions" and put the rules where the rules go. Putting rules into the definition, imo, just asks for ambiguity or confusion.

If you look up the definition of a bear, it's not going to say..."can't eat more than 5 salmon in a day". It's just going to say what it is.

[Laura]

http://www.ballroom.to/pro vs am.jpg
I thought that Ams (but not Pro/Am Student Dancers) in the NDCA were now allowed to teach? Did that ever pass? I remember the big ruckus about it last year where Gary McDonald posted here that it had, and we checked the NDCA meeting notes and it hadn't, and I lost track of whether it eventually did or not but I thought it did.

[Chris Stratton]

And what about the dancing bears, what category are they eligible for?

[Laura]

It depends on if they are paid (in salmon?) or not.

[Chris Stratton]

I thought that Ams (but not Pro/Am Student Dancers) in the NDCA were now allowed to teach? Did that ever pass?

Yes, it did. Or more specifically, the bit about not being allowed to got erased.

You'd have to read the minutes to see any attention called to the fact that something had changed.

[mamboqueen]

It depends on if they are paid (in salmon?) or not.

Funny...I almost put that in ;)

[Laura]

Yes, it did. Or more specifically, the bit about not being allowed to got erased.

You'd have to read the minutes to see any attention called to the fact that something had changed.
Yeah, I'm looking at the NDCA rule book right now and in II.A.2 (definition of Amateur) the prohibition on teaching, demonstrating, or giving shows is now absent. So Larinda's diagram needs to be updated to have AM under the "Teaches" column for NDCA.

Also, I don't quite understand the "Dances as AM at USA Dance" column. If you dance as an AM in USA Dance events, you are allowed to teach, so that would preclude you from doing pro-AM in an NDCA event but won't prevent you from doing AM. If it were re-labeled "Competes as a pro-AM Student Dancer" then that column makes sense to me the way I'm reading it.

[Larinda McRaven]

http://www.ballroom.to/pro vs am.jpg

SO the only real disagreement between the two organizations is it comes to people teaching/earning money. All other scenarios are in agreement.

[Purr]

And what about the dancing bears, what category are they eligible for?

V. Waltz

[Chris Stratton]

SO the only real disagreement between the two organizations is when people teach/earn money. All other scenarios are in agreement.

No, they agree on that.

[mamboqueen]

Okay; all charts aside (which heh...you guys are clearly more talented than I could hope to be in that department), my real issue to begin with was where I registered as an am, but I also do pro/am, which rules apply to me. I'm getting that it's whatever the stricter set of rules are. I suggested that perhaps in the next round of changes to the rulebook a clarification be made on that subject. I'm sure I'm (and Laura) not the only person who wiill encounter this.

Back to dancing bears....

[Larinda McRaven]

I just don't get what your question is. If you register as an AM at USADANCE you follow their rules. When you dance pro-AM you follow NDCA rules. The two are not in conflict.

http://www.ballroom.to/mq.jpg

[mamboqueen]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=xv25oRY9M4I

[Laura]

I just don't get what your question is.
If you register as an Am at USADANCE you folow their rules. When you dance pro-AM you follow NDCA rules. The two are not in conflict.
No, not in conflict so long as all rules are followed simultaneously.

For example, if you registered as AM with USA Dance and followed their rules, which allow you to teach, demonstrate, or give shows for money, and took advantage of this rule by doing so, then you would no longer be eligible to dance in NDCA pro-AM events as the Am.

Oh wait, I think we're saying the same thing!

[mamboqueen]

I just don't get what your question is. If you register as an AM at USADANCE you follow their rules. When you dance pro-AM you follow NDCA rules. The two are not in conflict.

I'm not even considering USADance rules in this. I'm figuring out which rules apply to me in NDCA if I'm both an am/am and a pro/am. The rules are different for each subset. Sorry if that was not clear. Geez...I don't even know if I want to read USADance rules now!

[Larinda McRaven]

http://www.ballroom.to/mq2.jpg

[Chris Stratton]

NDCA says if you teach/earn money you are a PRO. USADance says they don't care. I don't see that as an agreement.

The rule with dancing ANY form of AM at NDCA is that you cannot:
1) Teach
2) Earn Money
3) Declare Yourself as a Pro

Larinda, you are still operating on last year's information. Only #3 remains on the books for NDCA amateur competitors.

This is what makes their rules for this category now in agreement with USA Dance's.

(NDCA Pro/am student dancers do still have rules along the lines of #1 and #2. Since USA Dance doesn't offer a pro/am category, this is not a point of disagreement either)

[mamboqueen]

I would not conclude that in reading the rules as currently written.

[Laura]

NDCA says if you teach/earn money you are a PRO. USADance says they don't care. I don't see that as an agreement.
Where does the NDCA say this?

The NDCA says you are a Pro if:

A. CLASSIFICATION OF DANCERS
1. PROFESSIONAL: A Professional Dancer is one who is any or all of the following (anyone studying for or taking a theory exam will not be deemed a professional unless they declare themselves such as defined below):
a. Registered as a Professional with the NDCA.
b. A Staff Member employed by a Dance Studio to teach.
c. One who partners a Pro/Am Student Dancer or Registered Amateur in Pro/Am Competitions.
d. Any person who declares himself or herself a Professional by word or deed (Examples: serving as a hired Partner, or participating in Professional Competitions or Team Matches).

The NDCA says you are an Amateur if:

2. AMATEUR:
a. AMATEUR: An Amateur is one for whom dancing is strictly an avocation, a recreational activity, or a competitive sport. An amateur dancer may become a professional in the following manner:
(1) By the declaration of such
(2) By competing against other professionals in an NDCA sanctioned Open Professional or Rising Star event
(3) By acting as a professional partner in an NDCA sanctioned Pro/Amateur competition event
b. Pre-Teen, Junior, Youth and Adult Amateur dancers must be registered with the NDCA, unless they are participating only in pro/am events.
(1) NOTE: With the exception of honor dances and formation teams, amateurs are not permitted to demonstrate at NDCA events.

It no longer says anything about Amateurs being prohibited from earning money, except for Pro/Am Student dancers:

3. PRO/AM STUDENT DANCER:
a. A Pro/Am Student Dancer competes in Ballroom dance purely as an avocation.
b. A Pro/Am Student Dancer does not teach Ballroom dance under any circumstances.
c. A Pro/Am Student Dancer may neither demonstrate nor give shows for compensation in any style of Ballroom dance.
d. A Pro/Am Student Dancer is permitted to enter Ballroom dance "Pro/Am Scholarship Events" which offer monetary prizes. In this case, any prize money awarded belongs to the Pro./Am Student Dancer, not to the professional, and the Pro/Am Student Dancer may decide how it is to be used.

[Larinda McRaven]

Larinda, you are still operating on last year's information.

Where does the NDCA say this?

Sorry I had since (within the 45 second lapse of time of posts!) gone back and edited the diagram.

[Chris Stratton]

It is possible that the rules define a studio-employee teacher as a professional and only allow an amateur competitor to teach as an independent, though given the background in the minutes it's not clear that there was any actual intention to draw such a distinction.

[biggestbox]

So an AM can give a private lesson at a studio, but can't be hired by that studio to teach. Am I correct?

[Larinda McRaven]

yes, but not a pro-AM.

[Laura]

http://www.ballroom.to/mq2.jpg
Thanks for the diagram, Larinda. SOOOOO much better than my stupid box :)

[Joe]

I think your box would have been OK if you'd formatted it using monospaced type. Isn't there some feature in the forum coding that will set a section of text as monospaced? I've seen it in the shoe review thread.

[Larinda McRaven]

excel