Borrowing choreography

[pygmalion]

Another question for you. I was browsing through dance vision videos for sale the other day and came across several interesting ones -- dance choreography tapes, with routines that one can borrow and use.


Question, does anybody actually use the choreography, either from these tapes, or borrowed from real life competitive dance pros, in their routines? Or are they used as just a starting point for original routines? Thoughts?

[dTas]

i use other peoples choreography as inspiration to put together my routines. i see a piece here and there and patch them together but by the time the choreography is done nothing looks like it was at the beginning.

those videos are great to give you a starting point to work with.

[Vince A]

Yes . . . I do use choreography from other routines that I have learned along the way or have seen others do. I don't believe that it is "copyrighted" material . . . so use it, use parts of it . . . it certainly cannot hurt your dancing!

[dancin_feet]

I have suggested a couple of moves from one of the routines the exhibition couple did at the Australian Championships last year to my instructor for our routine.

Borrow, pillage, steal, change around, tadah - new move!!

[pygmalion]

Pillage? :lol:

[Snuggles]

Today at the comp my partner and i went to in sydney olympic park (see dance politics 2) there was and event, the same even we didnt get called back for, that had 2 heats...we were in heat 2 and another couple were in heat 1...we were just watching everyone and my attention was drawn to a couple that had a nice dress so i just watched them, my attention was then drawn to the fact their waltz was exactly the same as ours...i then watched their quickstep and again at least 3/4 of it was the same as ours...this couple does not go to my studio...Is there anything that can be done about this???i know something can be done if you are a pro but what about ametuer??? cos its pretty annoying changing a routine thet you have just spent time learning yet to have it stolen and have to change it again...

[Laura]

Who taught you the routine? Does this person ever work with that other couple? Is it possible that your choreography coach taught something similar in the past to someone, who then passed it on to the other couple? There are a lot of commonly used groupings, so maybe that's all that's going on. Or maybe your choreographer used the same routine twice.

I'm just trying to think of other reasons besides outright theft to explain this. It's still really annoying no matter how it happened, though!!

[lissie]

What style ? What level ? 1/2 of level 1 in NZ have our waltz - but then there are only so many ways to put the restricted syllabus tgether so you cover the floor - 1/2 natural , o/turned spin turn to promand is not exactly original. Even in latin there are some pretty standard combinations ... I remember seeing about 10 couples in blackpool start with teh same side - feather, reverse, 3 step etc - are you sure you are being VERY original.. Anyway why would it matter - if the routine suits you and fits the floor who cares ? BTW assum we're not talking New Vogue here :D

[Warren J. Dew]

my attention was then drawn to the fact their waltz was exactly the same as ours...i then watched their quickstep and again at least 3/4 of it was the same as ours...this couple does not go to my studio...Is there anything that can be done about this???
Yes. It's very simple: switch to a different routine.

Better yet, learn floorcraft and quit using a routine at all.

[Chris Stratton]

Or just dance it better than they do.

[Nikki]

my teacher gives a lot of people routines. and the ones taht dance at the same grade get the same dance - imagine how annoying it is - especially when she gives her "favourite pupils" special routines and the rest of us have to make do with looking like a formation team!

i cant learn floor craft cause she wont teach me!

[Kitty]

Better yet, learn floorcraft and quit using a routine at all.

how can you stop using the routine?
my tree objections are

1) you can learn how to jump from one part of the routine to another depending on the traffic and position on the floor, but you need some choreography to use as practice pieces, same all the time, certain groups of steps. And if you are using same groups later in competition that IS what most people call a routine.

2) routines usually have phrasing to them and doing just lead and follow won't have the same effect.

3) using a routine doesn't mean having bad floorcraft or not doing lead and follow.

[Kitty]

i cant learn floor craft cause she wont teach me!

that doesn't sound too good.
you need to be able to deviate from the routine for better floorcraft, and for that you need to know different places where you can enter and exit the routine, different ways to abort...

[Egoist]

Today at the comp my partner and i went to in sydney olympic park (see dance politics 2) there was and event, the same even we didnt get called back for, that had 2 heats...we were in heat 2 and another couple were in heat 1...we were just watching everyone and my attention was drawn to a couple that had a nice dress so i just watched them, my attention was then drawn to the fact their waltz was exactly the same as ours...i then watched their quickstep and again at least 3/4 of it was the same as ours...this couple does not go to my studio...Is there anything that can be done about this???i know something can be done if you are a pro but what about ametuer??? cos its pretty annoying changing a routine thet you have just spent time learning yet to have it stolen and have to change it again...

This is clearly a case of copyright infringement. I know many couples who have sued other couples for copying their routines and then beating them! I think they basically settled by relinquishing the ribbons and a public apology.
...because we all know it's not how you dance but what you dance.

[Egoist]

i cant learn floor craft cause she wont teach me!

What do you do when you dance socially?

[Nikki]

There isn't anywhere local that I can go to do this because this sort of dancing isn't overly popular over here and the people where i live lets say lack any culture to appreciate it (obviously there are a few exceptions).

[Elizabeth]

i cant learn floor craft cause she wont teach me!

That doesn't stop you from learning it on your own. If you have a read the technique book, you'll find that every figure in there has a listing of which figures you can use before and after it. That and practice are really all you need to learn how to substitute figures appropriately and avoid problems.

[TemptressToo]

Yes, but in order to have a case for copyright infringement. You have to have a copyright. ;)

If you have that dance well documented in both writing and on video you "could" apply for a copyright.

Otherwise you don't have a case because it comes down to your word against theirs.

[Warren J. Dew]

routines usually have phrasing to them and doing just lead and follow won't have the same effect.
So what do you do if the piece of music doesn't have the same phrasing as what you choreographed?

[ACtenDance]

Most ballroom music follows typical patterns of phrasing. Like phrases of 8 bars of music... accents on the fifth bar of a phrase... things like that. Simplest example, Viennese Waltz. It's always in 8 bar phrases.

[Joe]

Even if you have the same programmes, you can choose to start your programme in a different spot--start halfway through and do the first half last.

[Nikki]

would it not be still quite obvious they are the same. The routines aren't very long.

just for idea how long should a comp routine be?

[newbie]

I think I saw some years ago an "Ally Mc Beal" episode where the case was a stolen routine. At some point the victim demonstrated the routine in front of the judge. It was a very elaborate routine though, not from the level-1 syllabus.

[Joe]

would it not be still quite obvious they are the same. The routines aren't very long.

just for idea how long should a comp routine be?
At least 80 seconds

[Nikki]

I think I saw some years ago an "Ally Mc Beal" episode where the case was a stolen routine. At some point the victim demonstrated the routine in front of the judge. It was a very elaborate routine though, not from the level-1 syllabus.

I saw that too. they didn't win though the couple ended up back together. it was a case where a couple had split and one partner used the same routine with a new partner

[Egoist]

Yes, but in order to have a case for copyright infringement. You have to have a copyright. ;)

If you have that dance well documented in both writing and on video you "could" apply for a copyright.

Otherwise you don't have a case because it comes down to your word against theirs.

I think nowadays the case is solved by a head to head match where each couple dances the routine...to the death!!

[Warren J. Dew]

Most ballroom music follows typical patterns of phrasing. Like phrases of 8 bars of music... accents on the fifth bar of a phrase... things like that. Simplest example, Viennese Waltz. It's always in 8 bar phrases.
That might be true for the competitions you go to, but it isn't for most of the competitions I've been to recently. Many competitions have started using more popular music, as opposed to music recorded especially for ballroom, and the popular music has more phrasing variations.

I'd agree viennese waltz is an exception. That must be why everyone uses a routine in viennese.

[Joe]

Yes, but in order to have a case for copyright infringement. You have to have a copyright. ;)

If you have that dance well documented in both writing and on video you "could" apply for a copyright.

Otherwise you don't have a case because it comes down to your word against theirs.

I think nowadays the case is solved by a head to head match where each couple dances the routine...to the death!!
No! To the pain!

[pygmalion]

*giggle* I hope they're no rodents of unusual size involved. :roll:

[Joe]

I don't think they exist!

[pygmalion]

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[Merrylegs]

This situation reminds me of the movie, "Bring it On". Where are the spirit fingers? :lol:

Seriously, I've seen couples dance the same rountine in syllabus events and no one got upset.

Around here, studios choreograph routines for each level of syllabus and Open categories. This goes for Pro-Am and Am-Am routines. It makes life easier on the teacher when dancing numerous heats at competitions.

I've had to dance against other women in my category from my old studio, I knew they'd have the same routine as me and just thought, "I'd better dance it better than my competitor". Sometimes I did, and sometimes I didn't.

I'm a little lost in the thread, is this an open routine or syllabus and are you an amateur couple? If so that's one thing but if you're a pro couple, I'd probably have a conversation with the coach that gave you that routine.

You could always change the opening to something different...?

Let us know what you do, I'm curious to see how it pans out.

[pygmalion]

LOL. I thought we were reminding you of The Princess Bride! :shock: :lol: (One of the best movies ever, btw.)

Yep. I wasn't clear on the person's level from that first post, either, Michelle. Meaning, if they're dancing bronze one, for example, there are only so many things one can do. The intro and closing might be different, but there are only so many allowable syllabus patterns, so the routines all look pretty much alike. If, on the other hand, the couple's dancing a specifically choreographed routine at a higher level, that's a whole different ball of wax, IMHO.

[Merrylegs]

Have fun storming the castle, Pygmalion! :wink: I love that movie!!!!

Anyway, before I digress into a Billy Crystal shtick, let me agree with your point about syllabus routines:

There are only so many steps in syllabus, so what's a dancer to do? Dancing out of syllabus makes it more interesting but, you run the risk of pissing off an invigilator. Not something I want to do at all.

I've watched Pro Standard events where the Viennese Waltz looked like a formation, a damn good one at that. Actually, Viennese Waltz is a great example of the point I was trying to make. Here is where you could see the differences in the couples' abilities. One couple would do something slightly different and it caught your attention. Good or bad, btw.

Got only 5 figures, make 'em stand out!

[Chris Stratton]

One thing that's really nifty about the viennese waltz formation effect is when you think about how it is both collaborative and competitive at the same time. Of course sometimes Vw is more of a free-for-all.

[Snuggles]

the thing that bothered me most was that we danced our routine and we felt it was perfect and then we watch the next heat and someone else has our routine...we know we did it better than they did and we were told that it was the best we had ever danced nd we didnt make the final...makes you feel terrible

[pygmalion]

Yeah. I can imagine. :(

[starry]

This reminds me of the time I saw a local professional salsa couple perform what I thought was a very creative and unique routine involving a theme. I was wowed by their "creativiity." A few months later, I was watching a video of a West Coast Salsa Congress that was a few years old. Lo and Behold, there was a world-famous pro couple performing nearly exactly the same routine, with the same theme and the same music and the same tricks as the local couple I saw. Now, since I knew how long the local couple had been dancing, I did the math and knew the local couple must have taken the routine from the world-famous couple. My respect level for the local couple hit the dirt. Come on folks! I knew there is very little original stuff out there, but at least look at what others are doing and be inspired by it; don't steal it! It is okay to let others choreography inspire and influence your own, but it is definitely NOT OKAY to take another's routine and copy it step by step, idea by idea!! Shame on those who do this. Any pride they might feel in their abilities as dancers is cheapened when they steal in this way.

[Snuggles]

wouldnt the world pro couples on the video have copyright on their routines...when demonstrations are on a big comps here, noone is allowed to tape or anything...hmmm

[Nikki]

no if im correct in my thinking (the way they do it over here) its that they have given another company copyright to footage and pictures from the competition - thats why. when you enter a competition i heard pro couples had to forfeit the right to having a say in their pics being used etc as its been signed over to another company.

[Egoist]

the thing that bothered me most was that we danced our routine and we felt it was perfect and then we watch the next heat and someone else has our routine...we know we did it better than they did and we were told that it was the best we had ever danced nd we didnt make the final...makes you feel terrible

Did they make the finals with "your" routine? That would be incredibly unfair. I think they should AT LEAST hold a press conference and announce that they owe you for making that cut.

Damn. All these years I have been trying to make cuts by dancing well. All I had to do was copy the top couples' routines!!!

[newbie]

Is this problem true with all levels? I mean, at beginner's level (pre-bronze junior?...) there are few elements in the syllabus, and they don't combine necessarily well together so the number of reasonable routines is maybe not that great. Possibly, one day the ultimate optimum routine will be found and all beginner's competitions will be danced on it.

[Chris Stratton]

There's no optimal routine. What people who think that way fail to realize is that the only people watching your complete performance are your friends (and maybe enemies) - the judges are scanning the entire floor and will see you only at random moments.

[Katarzyna]

There's no optimal routine. What people who think that way fail to realize is that the only people watching your complete performance are your friends (and maybe enemies) - the judges are scanning the entire floor and will see you only at random moments.

You just have to make sure you don't have too many random moments in your routine where your results would be hurt when being watched by a judge...

[LXC]

Did they make the finals with "your" routine? That would be incredibly unfair. I think they should AT LEAST hold a press conference and announce that they owe you for making that cut.

Damn. All these years I have been trying to make cuts by dancing well. All I had to do was copy the top couples' routines!!!

:D :D :D Hey, at least people are getting creative and going beyond the usual suspects of floor, judging, partner and audience.

[Chris Stratton]

I think the idea of applying copyright to a routine for ordinary multiple-couple-format competition is a bit silly, but it looking at it that way could perhaps illustrate one problematic misunderstanding about getting routines from teachers.

If you go and get a routine from your teacher as part of your normal lesson, who owns it? You may think you do, but unless you have specifically contracted to have the coach create it for you as a work for hire then it is actually the property of the coach. They may have taught it to you, but you could technically need a license from them to perform it in competition! Chances are, if you show up at your lesson with a work-for-hire contract covering the routine you hope to get, you will no longer simply be paying lesson rate for something off the top of the teacher's head - instead you'd be overtly hiring them as a choreographer, and a teacher with good business sense would probably ask for quite a bit more for that work.

Actually treating it as a copyright subject is probably silly all around: but unless you have (verbally) contracted for a unique routine that will be all yours, all you are asking the teacher to do is give you something that will work for you. Where they got it, who else they've given it to, and who else they might share it with are not really covered in the basic "help me for an hour" transaction. Granted, it would be nice if each couple got something unique to their strengths and look - but then, each couple does have the power to further customize what they get.

(another thing: I don't think you can claim copyright over something that has not been 'fixed' in some tangible medium - written down, videotaped for documentation, or something like that)

[Snuggles]

im not getting full on technical about it...all im saying is that its a bit upsetting when you see another couple do your routine and they make the final and you dont...we thought it was the best we had ever danced and we were told that...to have ur confidence built and then shattered is the thing that bothers me...especially when my partner has a slight lack of confidence. We felt so good about the way we danced and we get pushed to the end of the line

[Chris Stratton]

im not getting full on technical about it...all im saying is that its a bit upsetting when you see another couple do your routine and they make the final and you dont...we thought it was the best we had ever danced and we were told that...to have ur confidence built and then shattered is the thing that bothers me...especially when my partner has a slight lack of confidence. We felt so good about the way we danced and we get pushed to the end of the line

Understandable - but what does any of that have to do with the routine?

[Snuggles]

well im not worried about all the technicalities of getting copyright over my routines...all i was worried about was what i said...that they stole our routine we felt we did it really good etc...its just a bad thing that they did that...im not going to send them to court over a dance routine.

[skwiggy]

If they made the final and you didn't, it's because the judges thought that they danced better. It has nothing to do with which steps they danced.

Now that doesn't mean that your dancing was bad. And that wasn't meant to belittle what you felt was a great performance by you.

The fact that you and your partner danced your best is a huge accomplishment. Enjoy that, and be proud of it. :)

When it comes down to it, you have no control over the judges marks. You have no control over what steps other couples dance, or how well they dance them. The only thing that you have control over is your own dancing. And that went very well! So be excited about delivering a strong performance. And keep working on the quality of your dancing, and maybe next time the results will be different.

When it comes down to it, the steps just don't matter that much at all.

[pianoman]

there's nothing wrong with the same routines being danced... the point of competition is dancing better than the competition

trying to 'win' by having the 'best' routine is a rather pointless exercise that resembles chess players trying to memorize 30-move openings just so they can have a 'slight advantage' of +0.12 or something

but thinking about the legal side of it...
you don't neccessarily have to copyright in order for there to be intellectual property, but the evidential issues would be almost insurmountable

[Egoist]

If they made the final and you didn't, it's because the judges thought that they danced better. It has nothing to do with which steps they danced.

NOOOOO!!! It can't be!!!! Really?!!!! Please say it wasn't so. You may be right. OK you are right. But wait! What about el Ninyo? That's it! El Ninyo, i.e. global warming, was the culprit!

You just had to go and break their bubble. And here I was trying to be very conforting and soothing.

[Another Elizabeth]

but thinking about the legal side of it...
you don't neccessarily have to copyright in order for there to be intellectual property, but the evidential issues would be almost insurmountable
This makes no sense, unless you mean that you don't need to register the copyright to have IP. But if you don't have a copyright, the other types of IP are trademark, patent, trade secret, and a few new ones like domain names. None would apply to a dance routine. (Actually, I might be able to make an argument for trademark/trade dress for an individual step or two, but I don't think it would get anywhere - too functional.)

I don't think the evidentiary issues would necessarily be insurmountable. But Chris has a good point that the dancers may not be the owners of the copyright in the choreography. (They own the copyright in their own performance, if it's fixed in a medium, but that's not being "pirated" in this scenario.) But if they allege that they created the routine themselves, then the burden is on the other side to prove that they don't have a valid copyright in it.

All this is academic speculation, of course. If you're so wedded to your competition routines that you sue for their "theft," you have bigger problems than protecting your IP. :)

I doubt that any judge would even notice that two couples were dancing the same routine. It's not what you dance, it's how you dance it.

[Chris Stratton]

You know the other thing that occurs to me is that if someone actually can rip off your routine just by watching, and dance it better than you - especially without teacher-help - it may reflect negatively on their morals but it reflects positively on their dance skills.

It's like the pop-history movie "Amadeus" about Mozart: Salieri has his little piece for their patron... the Mozart character looks at it, tosses it in the fire. Then proceedes to not only play it, but comment on developments taken and not taken, and demonstrate them - he's being a jerk, but he's dancing circles around his rival.

Learning from what you see is a good and usefull skill - though it's better not to make it such a complete and insulting rip-off.

[Egoist]

You know the other thing that occurs to me is that if someone actually can rip off your routine just by watching, and dance it better than you - especially without teacher-help - it may reflect negatively on their morals but it reflects positively on their dance skills.



What is the moral principle that prevents you from learning something you see someone do and doing it in a better way? Does that mean if I see someone do some figure I've never seen nor know how to do I am morally obligated to not try to do it (or to not do it in a better way)?

[Chris Stratton]

What is the moral principle that prevents you from learning something you see someone do and doing it in a better way? Does that mean if I see someone do some figure I've never seen nor know how to do I am morally obligated to not try to do it (or to not do it in a better way)?

This is generally a good thing to do for bits and pieces, but if you do their full routine in front of them, that's kind of rubbing their nose in the relative skill levels, isn't it?

[Snuggles]

if you read my dance politics 2 post...you will understand this better...

[Snuggles]

If they made the final and you didn't, it's because the judges thought that they danced better. It has nothing to do with which steps they danced.

NOOOOO!!! It can't be!!!! Really?!!!! Please say it wasn't so. You may be right. OK you are right. But wait! What about el Ninyo? That's it! El Ninyo, i.e. global warming, was the culprit!

You just had to go and break their bubble. And here I was trying to be very conforting and soothing.

Im not chucking a hissy fit because they made the final and we didnt...
and btw its el nino not el ninyo...

[Snuggles]

and seriously do you really think judges really ludge whats in front of them...they put the well known couples first and whoever else in accordance... it seems a tid bit funny when the judges are scribbling down who gets what before the dancers even come onto the floor and when they do come on, the judges just stand there and do nothing...they could at least pretend...

[Joe]

How do you know what they're scribbling?

Maybe they're writing down numbers so they make sure they don't forget to mark everyone. Sometimes they can't always see the bloke's number--maybe they're writing down, "182, red ballgown; 196 blue ballgown."

[Elizabeth]

... or the could be writing the event number and the dance on their sheet, or signing it.

And what do you think happens if someone judges who has never seen any of the couples before? Do they just guess?

[pascal]

there's nothing wrong with the same routines being danced... the point of competition is dancing better than the competition

trying to 'win' by having the 'best' routine is a rather pointless exercise that resembles chess players trying to memorize 30-move openings just so they can have a 'slight advantage' of +0.12 or something

but thinking about the legal side of it...
you don't neccessarily have to copyright in order for there to be intellectual property, but the evidential issues would be almost insurmountable

As an amateur chess player I once prepared a 28-move sequence to trap a hungarian master during a tournament in Budapest, but he ducked around move 23 and escaped with a draw.
Next year, having to play him again, I prepared a 34-move improvement on the line he had played during our first game. He ducked again but unfortunately for him fell right into the line I had prepared one year before, and lost. So memorizing actually works sometimes. The trick here is to pretend you're actually thinking on your moves. In a way, it's fake chess.
I would compare this chess preparations with two ballroom partners training separately on their routine, dancing it together only during the comps, and faking the lead/follow mechanism.

[Egoist]

and btw its el nino not el ninyo...

FYI ny = n with the tilde (enye). The enye sounds like "ny". You learn something every day, eh?

[Snuggles]

its el nino with an (~) accent above the "n" which then makes the 'n' sound like 'ny' so thankyou...my brother studied el nino and its effects in university during his majors in world science...

[Snuggles]

Dictionary.com says

No entry found for el ninyo.

Did you mean El Nino?



El Ni·ño Pronounced El Nin-yo

A warming of the ocean surface off the western coast of South America that occurs every 4 to 12 years when upwelling of cold, nutrient-rich water does not occur. It causes die-offs of plankton and fish and affects Pacific jet stream winds, altering storm tracks and creating unusual weather patterns in various parts of the world.

:D :D :D

[Joe]

They're both equally valid...you're both equally too lazy to check what the key code is for the "n" with the tilde, and it's easier to just type a plain "n" or "ny" instead. :D

[mamboqueen]

Let's try to stay on topic, please.

[PasoDancer]

If you're working on something for a spotlight/showcase dance, is it ok for a teacher to see it, memorize it, work on it, modify it just a little, and teach it in a variations class for which they charge money?

If you did a spotlight waltz in February, and a wedding couple decided to use your routine for their dance a few months later, tacking on a dip and a minute and a half- extra, and changing the song, is that ok?

I hate it when people have the cheerleader mentality of "Hey! You, like, totally stole our move!", but I'm just wondering if two lines have been crossed or not.

Edit: I should also specify, since nearly everyone here is pro/am, that we are am/am, and this is between a couple of friends and ourselves, not anything contractual or financial, or whatever, like people originally seemed to believe. It was probably a mistake to ask something like this, because it will make me look like an ass for asking something like this.

[Joe]

Unless you're Martha Graham, anyone should be free to take your shizzle and dance it. If you give a ****, you should endeavor to dance it better than anyone else who cribs it could.

[mamboqueen]

I personally would be flattered, but it's not like I'd be coming up with something *that* original.....

[dancesportgirl21]

I would say as long as you're not all performing at the same event...

[Chris Stratton]

How in the world could a wedding couple copy your showdance? They might immitate the largest motions, but there's no way they are copying the dance that you did.

[cornutt]

If I specifically paid a pro to do choreography for me, and then someone else swiped it, I'd probably be peeved. But it's a whaddya-gonna-do thing. Barring complicated legal arrangements that are only worthwhile for large-scale public performance, there's probably no way to stop anyone. A copyright probably does exist in choreography, but unless someone just copies a whole routine lock, stock, and barrel, proving infringement is nearly impossible. And even if it can be proved, the possibility of recovering damages would only exist if the infringer could be shown to have made signinficant money off of it.

[Kitty]

he probably did not come up with completely original moves for the showcase either but just put together a bunch of cool things that other people or himself have already done in the past

[swan]

Recently I heard about a case that's similar but in a reverse situation. A student paid one pro to choreograph & they did the showcase together, then she turned around to go to another studio to pay another pro to learn the same routine & use the same music so that she could do the show twice in different places & for different crowd. Well, I guess she did pay for the routine. I just thought it was kinda tacky for the other pro to actually agree to using another pro's showcase - given that the 2 studios are literally within 3 miles of each other & a lot of overlap in students.

[chica latina]

I understand your concern.

I have paid to a lot to get something coreograph and then see some other couples using it for their own, and in the same event. I had to pay for it, so if they want to use it, they should be contributing $$. Then, they will try to ask you how it's done correctly. I like to help people, but come'on... that wasn't for free.

The only thing we did was to make sure we danced it better. I know other people will stop practicing around them or let them know that they should not be copying other's people coreography without permission.

[Laura]

If we're talking about newbies and wedding couples, then I'll point out that there is a small stock of basic moves that teachers tend to use because they aren't too difficult to learn quickly (like in the wedding time frame) but look nice and make the couple feel like they're really doing something (and wowing the mostly non-dance-trained guests). There's only so many ways to put this stuff together, it's not like a newbie or a wedding couple is going to get some totally unique custom piece of choreographic art to perform.

If we get way beyond that, like copying someone's signature showdance routine, then I think it would get to be more problematic.

There are a lot of common amalgamations of patterns. This can especially be seen when watching syllabus competitions.

[cornutt]

There are a lot of common amalgamations of patterns. This can especially be seen when watching syllabus competitions.

Yes, that's part of the problem. I suspect that there aren't that many routines that are really original works.

On the other hand, from a copyright standpiont, it isn't ncessary for every move in the routine to be original in order for the routine itself to be considered an original work. I'll have to admit I would be quite angry if we paid a pro for choreography, and then a competing couple copied our routine and then danced it against us. But, legally, there's probably nothing that can be done. Legal action would only be worth pursuing if there is TV or movie money involved.

As for taking the routine to another pro, the ethics would all depend on whether or not the choreography was considered a "work for hire"... that would be up to whatever understanding the instructor and student had. I'll give you an example of "work for hire" where there is money involved: my DW and I paid an architect to design our house. It's an original design, and our contract specifically says that it's a work for hire and that we own the copyright. So the architect can't use that design again, without our permission. But, as I say, this is a case where there's a lot of money changing hands. Legally, this sort of thing can be determined in a contract, but it's a level of legal detail that 99.9% of dancers aren't going to bother with.

[chiabear]

I had a class with a girl that every time the teacher used her as an example, and taught the rest of the class, she would huff about how she was doing it right first. I think she'd get angry about something like this

[PasoDancer]

I wasn't clear. I meant choreography that my partner and I had specifically worked on and put together. Our teachers helped us only with the beginning fifteen seconds, and then of course to correct technique and such. We put together the rest of it from scratch.

I keep forgetting that everyone here has a pro this or that, and it's hard to realize that some people don't think in terms of buying people and choreography for various things. We just go work on something, figure it out, practice until the kinks are gone. I was wondering if we could speak in terms of just friend-to-friend ethics instead of contracts and money. Does anyone here dance for fun, or for the thrill you get when hard work pays off? I don't want to start a "bash a pro or am" thread, but again, this subtle kind of "ouch" rears it's head. I'm sorry I don't have a pro anything. I feel like I'm speaking a different language.

I feel completely dumb for even asking this now. Ugh.

[Chris Stratton]

I wasn't clear. I meant choreography that my partner and I had specifically worked on and put together. Our teachers helped us only with the beginning fifteen seconds, and then of course to correct technique and such. We put together the rest of it from scratch.

If you invented something that the staff considered worth ripping off, that has to be a vote of confidence, right?

Question though - is the choreography as a product the goal, or is developing the skills that allowed you to create it, in addition to the skills that allowed you to dance it, the goal?

[Laura]

I wasn't clear. I meant choreography that my partner and I had specifically worked on and put together. Our teachers helped us only with the beginning fifteen seconds, and then of course to correct technique and such. We put together the rest of it from scratch.
Have you tried approaching the staff member in a sort of joking sense, like "wow, you've done a good job with Wedding Couple X, and their routine looks just like the one that Partner & I made up!"

Because I don't think there's anything that really can be done about this, other than to let them know that you know.

[PasoDancer]

Nothing is a vote of confidence lately. It's something I should have kept to myself. I mean- realistically... who DOES care who dances what, anyway? Sometimes it's just really hard to make up for twenty years of not dancing "overnight". A lot of things get looked-over, and things need re-prioritizing. I keep thinking things should just "work", and it's depressing when they don't right off.

"Ballroom dancing is fun, or else, dammit!"

[PasoDancer]

I tried to edit the subject to say "Amateur choreography ethics between friends for newbies" and it hasn't "reflected as such" yet after *******ing.

And it isn't like there IS anything I want "To be done"- I'm sorry to sound exasperated, but it was just one of those "So- how do you handle this when.." things- that I actually planned to just forget about, but still ask in case something happened later on down the road. The friends in question are the kind who will sit and watch us dance at a social, and then unsolicitedly point out everything we did wrong, and grill us on our practice schedules and what all we do. When he asked us once "So- how often do you practice?" and we told him, he nudged his then-girlfriend and said huffily "Well.. now SEE? I TOLD you... we're going to have to work more now... " and I was thinking "toward what?"

I think it's just "not fun" any more. As soon as this month's out and our lessons are done, we're pulling a Laura for a little while. This is one of those horrible, painful "Ugh, sh!t WHY did I ask this, because now they'll get the idea that..." moments.

[fire_dancer]

PasoDancer, I know where you're coming from, and I completely understand how frustrating it is to have your choreography taken and used without your permission. I think part of the art of dancing is not only knowing the steps, but also knowing how to string them together to make a routine look good, stand out, and have the right amount of 'flow'. So when someone steals your routine, they're not just stealing the steps (which, let's face it, can't really be stolen because they're taught to everyone), but they're really stealing the 'art' that you put into the dancing to make the steps go together well. So... I definitely understand the frustration!

With that being said, I also agree with some people that the only real thing to do in this case is to make sure that you dance it better, which it sounds like you do, and to confront the teacher and/or couple in a non-aggressive way to let them know that you are aware that they took your routine, and you're not exactly joyful over the idea. If it's a teacher, stop by and say something like "you must have really liked our routine, to teach it to the class! Maybe (my partner) & I should start teching a choreography course, do you think we'd be good at it?! *laugh* " (Said in a very joking manner, very playful). Or if it's another couple, wait until they are practicing it, find something that they're not doing right, and go over and point it out, then help them fix it. That shows them that you know what you're doing, and you know that they stole your routine. Then mention offhandedly that since you originally made up the routine, you hadn't had a chance to see what it looked like from an outside perspecitve, and then suggest that they add some of their own moves in to really make it 'their style'.

Just a few suggestions, but I understand both sides of the argument (steps are stolen, move on.... and the fact that you took the time to change it from steps to an artful choreography), and still feel bad that it's pushing you to leave dance for a while.

Hope everything works out! :)

[PasoDancer]

Thanks, firedancer. I wasn't sure anyone would understand what I meant!

[redhead]

Well a few other couples in the area have very similar choreography to the one we have (and it's not syllabus, and a whole 'nother story how it happened).
So we paid a different coach to make our routines "ours" by inserting some moves that are a little different and that fit us better, so the whole comp floor (which is usually only 4-5 couples, locally) doesn't end up looking like a formation team. Heck I'd be upset if someone copied our routines now!
(putting on flame-resistant suit)

[LindyKeya]

I understand what you mean too, and have had a similar experience.

In high school, I was a student in the "social dance" class, because I needed PE credit to graduate. The actual teacher for the class knew very little, so I was basically a TA. As such, I personally choreographed the Waltz test routine, which ended up in the public dance showcase at the end of the year. Who did the program list as choreographer? Let's just say it wasn't me.

Was I miffed? At the time, yes. Did I say or do anything? No, but I got over it. (Although to be fair, it was a pretty crappy routine. I might have said something about it if had been better or more important.)

But yes, all these things are very bad form. This kind of behavior shows a lack of ethics, and it certainly lowered my opinion of the person invovled.

[PasoDancer]

It's not so much a "serious breach of trust" or anything life-altering, it's just one of those "ow.. that kinda hurt!" that we'll get over, but now, it certainly stings. It's just another way people are gradually becoming less courteous.

No, we don't "own" these things- nobody does, but it's just tacky in the particular way this one happened. Besides that, we're in the studio literally "all the time"... any time we came in, the guy would say rather loudly "Well, they're here- let's go upstairs and practice now". We thought "oh, he's just really working hard on this, and it's going to be such a wonderful surprise to see what they're doing when it comes together at the reception, I can't wait"... and this is the same guy who would, when he wasn't practicing, was sitting with his then-girlfriend watching us dance like hawks- followed us to other dance venues "as friends", and asked us all sorts of questions about what all we do- even "could you show us what you're working on?"... we're idiots- we talked with them, showed them, (this was a different routine- it was mambo)... and then this. It's just kind of "ouch". We've never hidden anything we do from anyone, and we're glad to show people what to do- to the best of our albeit meager ability... if they hadn't acted so cagey and then did that, it wouldn't have mattered.

[cornutt]

I keep forgetting that everyone here has a pro this or that, and it's hard to realize that some people don't think in terms of buying people and choreography for various things. We just go work on something, figure it out, practice until the kinks are gone. I was wondering if we could speak in terms of just friend-to-friend ethics instead of contracts and money...
I feel completely dumb for even asking this now. Ugh.

No no no; it's not dumb at all. I didn't get from your original post that you were talking about choreography you composed yourself.

First of all, bravo for doing your own choreography. I've tried that, and it always comes out a mess. Second of all, I'm not a high-level competitive dancer either. My DW and I do have one routine that we're pretty happy with and would be miffed if someone swiped it. But the main reason we feel protective of it is that it was composed by David Hamilton -- that's an opportunity that amateur dancers at our level don't always get. Second of all, my blathering on about copyrights was purely from a theoretical standpoint. Keeping up with copyright law is sort of a hobby of mine. (I'm a musician who has worked at a semi-pro level, and my brother used to be a professional musician. If you're going to swim with the sharks in the music industry, you'd better have your copyright stuff down cold. :rolleyes: ) Let's face facts, no one at our level (or even a good ways above our level) is going to spend money pursuing a copyright action.

So, now that I understand the situation better: I wouldn't just "let it go" without at least trying to have a discreet word with the staff first. If they are sympathetic, perhaps you can try to work a deal where you help their instructor learn your sequences a bit better, in exchange for a future free lesson or two. If they rebuff you, well, at least you tried. (And if it makes you feel any better, know this: odds are, once the wedding is over, that couple will never dance that routine again.)

[Laura]

As soon as this month's out and our lessons are done, we're pulling a Laura for a little while.
A what?

You mean taking a break for a while, or officially quitting and seeing how long it takes for someone or something to lure you back?

[PasoDancer]

Kinda both. But it'll have to wait until January. Edit- I had panicked and thought "run- NOW"... but I need to stick it out for at least that much longer.

[arianiah]

Well it says more of you that you can choreograph a routine and less of them that they steal someone elses. I mean they aren't very smart if they will have the same routine as someone else at competition on purpose. I mean the thing about getting a routine for comp is to help you stand out from the other couples. Maybe they don't know this and that could be your ticket to solving the problem. I mean i would be embarrassed to have the same routine as someone else..like wearing the same dress as another girl at an important function.

[Dan C]

Heh, I can't believe the whole thing with the So You Think You Can Dance couple who apparently stole a complete samba routine, including costume idea, off of the Ohio Star Ball that was televised on America's Ballroom Challenge. They made it to Vegas and the male half made it onto the final 10 guys. Haven't noticed if anyone was discussing that elsewhere on this site or not, but I'm surprised it didn't appear in this thread.

It's just poor form, if you ask me.

[Laura]

It got discussed down in the SYTYCD thread, and Stas even came on here to give his side of the story.

He also got voted off last night.

[tanz15]

Perhaps this is not relevant to pasodancer's specific situation, but another consideration is that if someone who knows what s/he is doing makes a routine for you and your partner, then that routine presumably shows off your unique qualities (and disguises your unique flaws). The routine therefore may not look good on another couple, even if they are good dancers. The routine may not even look right if the couple breaks up and tries to transfer the sequences to their new partnerships.

The situation described here sounds fairly parasitic, however. It's like people who intently observe other people's lessons, thus getting some passive instruction (maybe even a lot) without contributing anything.

[J4cki3]

Up to now, my instructor has been the one who makes up our routines. But this year, I would really love to choreograph my own routines. I'm aware that there are plenty of videos on youtube where one can find inspirations from, but i'm not too sure where to draw the line between stealing and using them as inspiration. So far I've come up with a routine that's got some lines that everyone seem to do in comps, getting into those lines I've thought up myself, and bits and pieces of other steps.

So basically.. if one takes bits and pieces out of lots of different videos, and then paste them together... does it make it stealing?:confused:

[gracie]

Everyone does that, even the Pros. Just as long as it's not the exact steps in the exact same order. Even then probably no one will notice. The judges don't have time to see your choreography. That's why many believe fewer steps done very well will score higher.

[_malakawa_]

you can even put the same steps in the same order but you can dance them with a different expression.

nowhere in the world you'll find a "unique" routine. everybody is dancing the same steps just expression and style is different.

example - cha cha lock step are dancing everybody, but the position of your arms, upper body, expression of your face make that step different from another dancers. ;)

[J4cki3]

Hmm... That's interesting. Although I do agree that there are only so many steps you can do in say.. cha, but the idea of having the exact same routine kinda makes me feel weird :rolleyes: after thinking about it, i guess if you have spent enough time thinking about how to put together a routine and not just learn someone else's routine, then it's not stealing? ;)

[QPO]

there are basics steps that must be done at certain levels and if everyone did the same routine on the dance floor in one way would make it easier for the judges to know who is better. In Australia we call it New Vogue. But I don't make it identical I have received the same advise, dance simple cori but do it well much better than making it complicated and doing it bad.

[J4cki3]

there are basics steps that must be done at certain levels and if everyone did the same routine on the dance floor in one way would make it easier for the judges to know who is better. In Australia we call it New Vogue. But I don't make it identical I have received the same advise, dance simple cori but do it well much better than making it complicated and doing it bad.

Oh yeah.. that's true.. NV.. forgot about that.. :nope:

[DanceMentor]

Just make sure you are not using the tango walk, or the QQS rhythm. Those are my steps. :)

[Merrylegs]

Just be sure to dance it better than the other couple.

[eclipse]

Part of learning to choreograph is taking elements you like and connecting them together. Eventually you start to create more originality. There are only so many ways to enter and exit each move and there are no new ideas under the sun. Don't take the entire routine off of youtube. Find a number of things that interest you. Use your strengths, add your style, and have fun. Eventually you find things that you do better and different than others out there.

Eclipse:banana:

[Joe]

Just be sure to dance it better than the other couple.
Exactly. You can steal choreography, but you still gotta be able to dance it well.

[Merrylegs]

Also, many studios and many college coaches have a set routine for all the levels in all the dances. I would imagine trying to come up with new routines for everybody would be impossible. So, in Boston for instance, you can have several people from the same studio dancing the same routines on the floor at the same time. What it all comes down to is who executes it better.

[etp777]

You will also see similarities in dances chcoreographed by same person. any particular choreographer has certain steps, patternns, etc that they will often fall into. So no stealing there, but you can see a dance and say ok, that was choreographed by Jim, or Tom, or whomever. SO certainly no issue with having stolen/similar bits in your routine. As mentioned, dance them! :)

[Larinda McRaven]

Are we talking syllabus or open. WIth syllabus there is only so much you can do so to recycle stuff is rather common. But dancing someone elses open routines... that is a whole other issue. One that I bet if you really asked the pros what they thought you would get different answers.

I see LOTS of people using my old professional choreography, straight out or bits and pieces. Some I gave away, some I did not.

Exactly. You can steal choreography, but you still gotta be able to dance it well.Sometimes I see a couple doing a piece that is so completely "mine" and I wonder what video they studied to "steal" it. Occassionally someone comes up to me and says "Hey did you see my Tango? We did that thing that you used to do?" And I say "Oh is THAT what that was?"

I spent years and years and years and hundreds of thousands of dollars to be able to do it. If I see you do it poorly I am not going to be amused or mark it well. Especially because I know what it REALLY is supposed to be and where you miss the timing or where you miss the line, or just plain don't understand HOW to do it.

Pick your choreography to suit you, not because it looked good on someone else.

[NielsenE]

Exactly what LM said... Anytime you "steal"/"copy" someone's routine you're getting a routine that was designed for someone else... their strengths, their weaknesses, their interpretation... To me that's always going to be a problem, even if the "victims" don't mind being copied...

Now playing with bits of routines, to see how different interpretations/stylistic choices feel, to start seeing what your personal interpretation is, etc should be encouraged. But I wouldn't want to bring it out on the competition floor until my partner and I have made it "ours" which is bound to change the it in such ways that its no longer merely copied..... Perhaps you could still see who inspired it, if we're really lucky perhaps it appears as a bit of a homage to our source without just copying them

[dlgodud]

Also, many studios and many college coaches have a set routine for all the levels in all the dances. I would imagine trying to come up with new routines for everybody would be impossible. So, in Boston for instance, you can have several people from the same studio dancing the same routines on the floor at the same time. What it all comes down to is who executes it better.

My coach does the same thing. The routines he created for his students are looked very similar. I actually have some problems with that. I know it's very hard for them to create different routines for different students. So I've decided myself to give him some help.:-D I probably copy some steps and routines from some other pros, but not everything. I believe it will be a good experience for me to do some creative work.

Actually I suggested something in my rumba routine. Some point he looked he was stuck with transition and the next step, and I said I saw something in someone's routine and suggested if we can do that. Surprisigly it worked very well and I liked it.

Meantime my coach is not available for 3 weeks and I have a plenty of time. So I've started to make my Chacha routine. I've been having a great time to do this. Why not??:rolleyes:

[wooh]

My coach does the same thing. The routines he created for his students are looked very similar. I actually have some problems with that. I know it's very hard for them to create different routines for different students.

Is it for dancing pro-am? Because it might not be that they need help coming up with routines, but don't want to remember a bunch of different routines. You might be in for a surprise on comp day when you get the standard routine from him instead of the one you helped create.:)

[etp777]

Yeah, i've seen that with pros with lots of students. When you're dancing 400-500 heats at a comp, can be hard to keep track of all the routines, so often see pros use same "routines" for all or most of their students. Course, this is closed, mostly bronze.

[tanya_the_dancer]

Yeah, i've seen that with pros with lots of students. When you're dancing 400-500 heats at a comp, can be hard to keep track of all the routines, so often see pros use same "routines" for all or most of their students. Course, this is closed, mostly bronze.

My teacher has a sort of game plan for each dance/level, but in reality it never comes out the same way on the comp floor.

[dlgodud]

Is it for dancing pro-am? Because it might not be that they need help coming up with routines, but don't want to remember a bunch of different routines. You might be in for a surprise on comp day when you get the standard routine from him instead of the one you helped create.:)

Yes. It's for pro-am. I see what you mean, and I already heard about those cases. One of instructors in my studio did in a hustle competition. He ended up with dancing the standard routine with different ladies in different levels. We did not understand at the moment how he could possibly do that. Because ladies paid a lot of money, time, and effort to practice their own routines and we felt like he just blew it. But, at the end of the day, he is another human-being like us, and we forget something all the time.

If it is happen to me too, I will get mad. But, nothing I can do about it. At least I can practice what I want to do. I just want to be a little bit different. That's it. I think that's one of beauty of dancing instead of sitting in front of a computer and doing the same thing over and over......

[reb]

Welcome to Dance Forums eclipse!

[elisedance]

There are step sequences that just look good together - in a sense they become a 'megastep' and may date back to the origins of dancesport (danspro has listed some and their origins on other threads). Using them is actually paying homage to the masters. However, as Larinda stressed, using entire routines is not only 'appropriation of voice' its kind of stupid since it indicates that you have nothing really to say with your dancing artistically - unless you think you can do it better.

[sambanada]

As long as you make it your own, routines dont matter. Its how you dance the routine. The same routine can be interpreted differently by different dancers.

[SPratt74]

Are we talking syllabus or open. WIth syllabus there is only so much you can do so to recycle stuff is rather common. But dancing someone elses open routines... that is a whole other issue. One that I bet if you really asked the pros what they thought you would get different answers.

I see LOTS of people using my old professional choreography, straight out or bits and pieces. Some I gave away, some I did not.

Sometimes I see a couple doing a piece that is so completely "mine" and I wonder what video they studied to "steal" it. Occassionally someone comes up to me and says "Hey did you see my Tango? We did that thing that you used to do?" And I say "Oh is THAT what that was?"

I spent years and years and years and hundreds of thousands of dollars to be able to do it. If I see you do it poorly I am not going to be amused or mark it well. Especially because I know what it REALLY is supposed to be and where you miss the timing or where you miss the line, or just plain don't understand HOW to do it.

Pick your choreography to suit you, not because it looked good on someone else.

This is a really interesting post. I wouldn't have a clue as to who came up with what. I wouldn't have a clue as to how I could find out.

[DL]

Depends on what you think dance is. . . . . .

This is a fantastic exhibition of physical ability.. . . . .it has no contact with the music at all.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=jDJM1gGW0zM

And if you don't understand why the above is bad, verging on the comical, then you don't understand dance.

(At the risk of veering off topic.) Can you present an example of what you would consider to be "good"?

At any rate, to be more on topic, then if the argument is that merely trying to replicate that instructional video exactly probably wouldn't lead a couple to outstanding success, then probably many here would agree.

[Larinda McRaven]

And Back on Topic please.