What Is Weak or Strong Lead

[DennisBeach]

References to weak or strong lead confuse me. In our private lessons and videos I have viewed, they explain correct and incorrect leading. That I understand. But I don't understand what is meant by a strong lead or weak lead. What do people mean when they say a strong or weak lead?

[DancingMeow]

I have the same question. My standard partner often comments himself as light lead. But to me, that's like no leading at all. He was dancing his part, and I was doing mine.

[fascination]

well ...I am by no means an expert...but I consider a lead weak if it is; late, indecisive, undecipherable, not connnected to the dude's center....I suppose those would all also fall under incorrect...it doesn't much matter how forceful a lead is if that is what you are getting at (in fact I could do without alot of that in most circumstances, but it should be certain and unambiguous)...not sure if that helps and only my somewhat mediocre 2 cents

[fascination]

I have the same question. My standard partner often comments himself as light lead. But to me, that's like no leading at all. He was dancing his part, and I was doing mine.true ...however I would add that dancing his part needs to be telling you what your position is...regardless of whether or not you are doing a routine or are freestyle...

[DancingMeow]

true ...however I would add that dancing his part needs to be telling you what your position is...regardless of whether or not you are doing a routine or are freestyle...

agree with you. Whenever I asked him to lead me more, he would say: I don't want to push and pull. That's right. I don't want him to do that either. But I basically want a very firm frame from him so that the table top (arms) is moving with the tables (his body) -- an analogy.

Sometimes he dances away from me without taking me together within his frame. Then I feel like being ditched. :(

Guess it's back to the old topic: the four body blocks!

[jekyblue]

I view a strong lead as a good lead -- it has nothing to do with how much force the leader uses to get me to go where he wants me to go, but how well the leader lets me know what he wants in time for me to respond. I work with two different pros and both are easy to follow, but one has a much lighter touch than other. I have no idea how you manage to achieve a lead that is so subtle but very clear.

Among the social dancers I know, there are a lot of men I can generally follow because I know the patterns they know, but if they've learned something new that I don't know, they often have a really hard time with the lead. There are a couple of men, however, that are just excellent leaders. One has been dancing only about a year, so it's really quite amazing that he's so much easier to follow than guys who have been dancing for a very long time.

I don't think the men with strong leads are any more talented than other dancers, but the two good ones I'm thinking of seem to dance a lot with different people, and they seem to be interested in learning whether a lead works or not. I've known both of them to ask mid-dance how they could lead something better. I think both of them view their lead technique as just as important as their footwork.

[xxtupikxx]

Weak vs. strong can have a few different interpretations.

1) Weak as a general description of poor, indecisive, disconnected..
vs, Strong as good, precise, connected to the body..

2) Weak as sensitive as guided by touch and feel
vs, Strong as powerful as guided by muscles and perhaps strong weight opposition.

As i understand your partner concern he is suggesting that he would like to lead through feel vs power, leaving you the option to sense and follow his body weight or to do your own thing. Light leads as well as strong leads can be clear and precise. If you are having problems following your partner i would suggest that it has little to do with lead strength and you try the following:


1) Talking about the ground rules of leading and following. What are each persons responsibilities. For example is the lead expected to the generate energy for the followers movement or not. (This is a question of preference)

2) Try reacting to his lead as opposed to correcting for it. If his lead makes you do nothing, then do nothing, the lead will quickly learn to adjust to produce the response you both seek.

[dbk]

References to weak or strong lead confuse me. In our private lessons and videos I have viewed, they explain correct and incorrect leading. That I understand. But I don't understand what is meant by a strong lead or weak lead. What do people mean when they say a strong or weak lead?

A strong lead will tell just about any follower what's going on. A *light* lead will tell more sensitive (i.e. more experienced) followers what's going on. And a weak lead is just a lead that won't tell any follower what's going on, or won't tell them what's going on correctly. That's how I look at it, at least.

[QPO]

I wonder if this problem comes from people who are new to dancing or are there people out there dancing for years that would be considered a weak lead. My understanding is that it is up to the man to direct where a dance is going to go on the dance floor, some men have an issues about pulling and pushing but if the women is truly compliant then this would not happen. My partner and I struggle with this daily. He tries to lead a dance and I don't sense where the dance is going and try to preempt what is going to happen, so is it that he offers a weak lead? or I am not a good follower? At the moment our teacher says we are two good dancers dancing together but not as one... I agree with Tulip but in the end it is practice practice practice it will happen if you want it.

[Warren J. Dew]

A strong lead will tell just about any follower what's going on. A *light* lead will tell more sensitive (i.e. more experienced) followers what's going on. And a weak lead is just a lead that won't tell any follower what's going on, or won't tell them what's going on correctly. That's how I look at it, at least.

Then there's the heavy lead, which will overpower the follower and prevent her from contributing to the dancing. It can also force her to do things that are incorrect or even painful, which is why some prefer light leads.

[Easy]

To me a strong lead is when somebody tries to make the woman do her part, and a weak lead is when a man barely does his part.

Since dancing is a partnership, if a man truly does his half then that is enough lead for the woman to know what her half/response should be period.

Leading is an invitation or in the very least an initiation :)

[Easy]

A woman who isn't in control of her own timing on a basic level isn't very fun to lead...it's a shared thing...not driving Miss Daisy ;)

[QPO]

Such a shame you don't teach in Australia! I like them words :-)


To me a strong lead is when somebody tries to make the woman do her part, and a weak lead is when a man barely does his part.

Since dancing is a partnership, if a man truly does his half then that is enough lead for the woman to know what her half/response should be period.

Leading is an invitation or in the very least an initiation :)

[QPO]

So True timing is everything and what makes you a good dancer to an ordinary one. I never understand why some people never get better with timing. Having said that, as a couple we have to try and prevent ourselves from speeding up on occasions, but getting better at it.

A woman who isn't in control of her own timing on a basic level isn't very fun to lead...it's a shared thing...not driving Miss Daisy ;)

[gclarke]

I wonder if this problem comes from people who are new to dancing or are there people out there dancing for years that would be considered a weak lead.
From a newbies point of view I would say that there are a great many people out there that have no real concept of what it is to lead and follow and have not given it any thought. What they do is what has come naturally or has evolved, whether that be weak, strong, light etc..

I see people that have taken their medals that must have addressed the subject at various times but still give it very little attention. If asked they will say things like 'it comes from the arms' (or body or feet etc.) but I'm guessing that unless people choose to compete, it's not thought about very much. They mostly dance with the wife/husband and never talk about it or try and improve on it.

I'm pretty sure if I wasn't here listening to you guys, Dave and I would evolve into dancing with me leading. I'm very grateful I learned to watch out for this early on as I think it has probably made a massive difference to whether Dave wants to learn to dance to humor me or whether he wants to do this for himself.

[xxtupikxx]

Lead/follow technique should be taught, poor teachers don't focus on this because they don't know how to explain what they themselves learned through trial and error, which in turn leaves their students to stumble about for the right approach on their own.

[gclarke]

Lead/follow technique should be taught, poor teachers don't focus on this because they don't know how to explain what they themselves learned through trial and error, which in turn leaves their students to stumble about for the right approach on their own.
I'm sure that's true but I'm fast learning that there's 2 sides to every story. Many people that begin dance lessons simply don't have that level of interest.

Initially I made the mistake of thinking because I myself was interested everyone else would be. Belonging to a forum like this can help foster that illusion too, after all, we are all here because we DO have that level of interest.

What does an instructor do with a class full of people where a small minority will want to learn detail but the rest just want steps and nothing too 'fancy'?

I am interested to see how many of our class remain by the time we get to think about leading and following, whether they will have dropped out by then or may drop out at that stage etc..

[fascination]

A woman who isn't in control of her own timing on a basic level isn't very fun to lead...it's a shared thing...not driving Miss Daisy ;)
:notworth:

[jennyisdancing]

I'm sure that's true but I'm fast learning that there's 2 sides to every story. Many people that begin dance lessons simply don't have that level of interest.

Initially I made the mistake of thinking because I myself was interested everyone else would be. Belonging to a forum like this can help foster that illusion too, after all, we are all here because we DO have that level of interest.

What does an instructor do with a class full of people where a small minority will want to learn detail but the rest just want steps and nothing too 'fancy'?

I am interested to see how many of our class remain by the time we get to think about leading and following, whether they will have dropped out by then or may drop out at that stage etc..

Just my opinion but if the instructor thinks leading and following are "fancy" skills that can wait until later, that's really poor teaching. My understanding is that lead and follow is the basis for social dancing. It's not an optional detail at all, and it has nothing to do with level of interest. And if you have a good teacher, it's fun to learn it. Otherwise, you're just memorizing routines which may or may not work in a social situation where the songs and the tempos may be different.

Unfortunately instructors are put in a difficult position because, as you say, many beginner dancers define a good lesson as one where they learn a lot of new steps, when in actuality that is not what a good dance lesson is about. IMO a good teacher communicates the fact that if you have good leading and following skills, it actually will be much easier to learn new steps, improvise, or even create your own new patterns.

Also it provides more self-confidence and a more enjoyable experience - if your partner is always trying to execute a long series of memorized steps, then he'll feel bad if he messes one up, or if you forget your part. Whereas if you know lead and follow skills, both of you can relax and go with the flow - if one of you forgets a step, he can just lead something different, and feel confident that you will be able to follow along.

I am not an expert like some other folks on here, but I am speaking from personal experience. I had been going to one place where they taught lots of steps but no lead/follow skills, and I kept wondering why I was having so much difficulty. I can memorize steps quite well, yet it was hard to actually dance with a partner. Things became so much easier, once I found better teachers.

[DennisBeach]

Lead/follow technique should be taught, poor teachers don't focus on this because they don't know how to explain what they themselves learned through trial and error, which in turn leaves their students to stumble about for the right approach on their own.

I think you hit on the key to enjoying social dancing. We have always focused on lead/follow, along with other technical items. Our teachers heard, how do I lead it, from me many times. When you get out on the social dance floor, I think good lead/follow technique, makes the difference between having fun and getting frustrated. It also helps in keeping dancing a non contract sport <g>.

[gclarke]

Just my opinion but if the instructor thinks leading and following are "fancy" skills that can wait until later, that's really poor teaching. My understanding is that lead and follow is the basis for social dancing. It's not an optional detail at all, and it has nothing to do with level of interest. And if you have a good teacher, it's fun to learn it. Otherwise, you're just memorizing routines which may or may not work in a social situation where the songs and the tempos may be different.
I can't say I disagree although I should point out that those were my words not his, based on comments from other class members and maybe I would say poor judgment rather than poor teaching. Although that implies he's making a wrong call rather than an conscious decision and I'm just playing devils advocate here when perhaps I shouldn't be given my lack of expertise.

Dave and I have had many a discussion about this. I itch to just stop learning steps and pay more attention to details, especially with my personality being as it is. I want to Dave to be able to lead and also show some interest in it. It's tough when I know my inclination is to lead, and if we were taught some basics, we could at least be aware of it as a couple instead of me thinking 'Did I just do it again?' Dave always points out to me though, that most of the class don't want it, and that is true from comments I've overheard.

Our instructor does make the whole class fun, that why I don't want to give it up, but it's maybe too much to expect that he tries to find a way of teaching people what they don't want (or maybe think they don't want?)

The classes are an hour so allowing for holidays etc, I would say that gives about 40-45 hours tuition from September to September and I would estimate we will have covered most of the bronze over 8 dances. Usually by then the class has dwindled to about 6 couples. As a teacher myself (swimming, IT, finance & business), I am interested to see what he does with us later. This is the first time the numbers have held up and the class is still going strong and I suspect he's on a bit of a learning curve himself - and good luck to him with that. I think if it were me, I would hate to have taught someone that much and not covered a subject I think important, but as Dave reminds me re. swimming, some people just want to get from one end of the pool to other on holiday, they don't care if they can't do 2 lengths because poor technique tires them.

I would add that when we went for our first private lesson at Premier, she asked what we wanted as she taught differently when people didn't want detail and technique. When I get chance I will ask what she does when people don't want it. I said up front I may want to do my Bronze but Dave may not, but after that first lesson Dave's views changed.

I think learning to lead will mean it's 'our' hobby rather than him following mine. Small thing but big psychological difference.

On that note I will shut up while I'm still loosely on topic.

[tsb]

perhaps if the words strong vs. weak were replaced with words such as clear vs. ambiguous it would be easier to understand.

but what i also see as part of the issue is that that there is a schism between those who do not compete vs. those who do; the skills required to score well in a competition and the skills required to dance well with a lot of different people are not necessarily the same skill sets. that is not to say that competitors cannot master both skill sets, but each individual's priorities will influence where they fall along the spectrum.

while there may be exceptions, i would hardly expect competitors to emphasize working on skills that help them dance well with other people. OTOH, i *have* heard of competitors who avoid dancing with non-partners just because they think it has a negative impact on their ability to connect with their partner.

the point is that lead & follow is a conversation. when you only speak with one other person, exclusively, you are likely to develop your own vernacular - which may make absolutely NO sense to anyone else. moreover, between doing a choreography and the limited choice of syllabus figures, a partnership's vocaulary within their own personal lead/follow language/dialect could in fact be quite limited. but to dance/converse well with a number of different people, one needs to deal with if not master differences in dialect, slang, vernacular, whatever. and once you go beyond the scope of syllabus moves, one needs to master an expanded vocabulary to communicate/comprehend the body movements that are required to do other figures.

last night i danced with someone who required a lot of body/frame lead from me for her to follow well (not surprising, given her background in standard (int'l) and AT). another person was not so comfortable with closed position but responded well to hand/arm leads and i was able to lead multiple release moves which included chaine turns which she followed perfectly. i knew the first partner wouldn't have done so, so i didn't try. the point is that the "strength" of a lead is not just mastery of technique that makes one's intentions clear - but also being able to discern which technique(s) to use depending on one's partner so that the result is a pleasant conversation between two partners (vs. being an argument!). so what is a "good" lead for one partner may be a "poor" lead to another, depending on the follow's individual level of competence and ability/inclination to follow.

[jennyisdancing]

I said up front I may want to do my Bronze but Dave may not, but after that first lesson Dave's views changed.

I think learning to lead will mean it's 'our' hobby rather than him following mine. Small thing but big psychological difference.


Not a small thing at all, and I think, a very concrete difference, not just a psychological one. That's the key point and now I understand what you meant in your previous posts.

For your husband, learning to lead means he is fully participating in the activity, and taking responsibility for his end of it. Otherwise, it's a case of him grudgingly thinking "okay, I guess I'll memorize a few steps and maybe that will make my wife happy". If I understand correctly, it sounds like the private lessons are helping his thinking evolve.

I hope he does come to enjoy learning leading. I think a lot of guys are very apprehensive at first, but when they learn to lead correctly, they are so confident and proud of themselves; it's nice to see. :banana:

[reb]

perhaps if the words strong vs. weak were replaced with words such as clear vs. ambiguous.

I like this . . .

[gclarke]

I've just been reading The Meaning of Tango by Christine Denniston. Someone on the forum here said it had a lot about leading and following.

They were right. It's an absolutely fascinating book.

Daves not much of a bookworm but I hope he will read it some time. It's pretty much as if there are two art forms here. Aside from dancing, the art of leading and following is almost a seperate entity and she makes you understand it as a life of it's own.

[euchoreo]

perhaps if the words strong vs. weak were replaced with words such as clear vs. ambiguous it would be easier to understand.

I can see that, but what many follows tend to feel IS strength, so the term strong vs weak still sort of applies. I feel like I've recently made a bit of progress on my lead and part of it is the strength (amount of force) in it, but most of it is in precision and timing.

If the timing of the lead is correct, precise, and adjusted for the follow, I've found that a large amount of force can (and sometimes should) be used. The best example I can give is the cha new yorkers. Mistakes that I used to make (that I see in others include:
- pushing the girl too far forward
- push towards the girl or pushing the lead's arm into the follower's space
- too sudden of a stop (in force, not in movement) upon reaching the apex of the new yorker
- leading too late going into and/or out of the new yorker It took me a while to understand how to move my body so that the girl got the lead BEFORE I committed most of my movement so that she could hit at the same time as me.

Before addressing those issues, I've tried many levels of force in the lead, connecting the girl to my arm (which isn't quite correct since she needs the lead a bit before the guy moves), etc..

Having addressed those issues, I've found that, if I'm dancing with someone who needs it, I can apply small bursts of large amounts of force to lead that step without causing any problems. I'm talking about "ticking" my arm using the FULL strength of my lats and some of the strength from my abs while leading girls that weight quite a bit less than I can bench press.

I find it funny that application of what I used to think of as excessive power in a lead has now come to be part of what I consider a good cha lead.

[BasicsFirst]

I see people that have taken their medals that must have addressed the subject at various times but still give it very little attention. If asked they will say things like 'it comes from the arms' (or body or feet etc.) but I'm guessing that unless people choose to compete, it's not thought about very much. They mostly dance with the wife/husband and never talk about it or try and improve on it.

Around here (from what I SEE) leading and following for your medals is non-existent. In fact, I've quietly been told... "Nobody ever fails.... SSHHHH". Another couple we know may have heard the same, they're gonna take the prep class and have chosen NOT to pony up the $$$ for the exam.

[gclarke]

Around here (from what I SEE) leading and following for your medals is non-existent. In fact, I've quietly been told... "Nobody ever fails.... SSHHHH". Another couple we know may have heard the same, they're gonna take the prep class and have chosen NOT to pony up the $$$ for the exam.
I wouldn't argue with you on the 'no-one ever fails' part. I took my lifeguard qualification and was asked if I wanted to do 'baby cpr'. 5 minutes later I had qualified despite having never covered it before. I was disgusted. A tad more serious than dancing where we're only fooling ourselves!

If some-one has taken gold medals though, I would expect that they would have covered it to some degree. Not from the point of view of how easy or otherwise it may be to get through the medal, but from their instructors point of view. Surely whilst an instructor may be forgiven for not pushing the point with beginners in social classes, teaching students to the level of Gold medals would require him or her to make some effort to teach leading and following?

Also I would have thought that if one was making the effort to achieve a Bronze medal, one would not resist the effort to be taught that as a social beginner may do.

That said, it doesn't explain why so little of it seems to have stuck if indeed it was ever taught.

[tsb]

I can see that, but what many follows tend to feel IS strength, so the term strong vs weak still sort of applies. I feel like I've recently made a bit of progress on my lead and part of it is the strength (amount of force) in it, but most of it is in precision and timing.

If the timing of the lead is correct, precise, and adjusted for the follow, I've found that a large amount of force can (and sometimes should) be used. The best example I can give is the cha new yorkers. Mistakes that I used to make (that I see in others include:
- pushing the girl too far forward
- push towards the girl or pushing the lead's arm into the follower's space
- too sudden of a stop (in force, not in movement) upon reaching the apex of the new yorker
- leading too late going into and/or out of the new yorker It took me a while to understand how to move my body so that the girl got the lead BEFORE I committed most of my movement so that she could hit at the same time as me.

Before addressing those issues, I've tried many levels of force in the lead, connecting the girl to my arm (which isn't quite correct since she needs the lead a bit before the guy moves), etc..

Having addressed those issues, I've found that, if I'm dancing with someone who needs it, I can apply small bursts of large amounts of force to lead that step without causing any problems. I'm talking about "ticking" my arm using the FULL strength of my lats and some of the strength from my abs while leading girls that weight quite a bit less than I can bench press.

I find it funny that application of what I used to think of as excessive power in a lead has now come to be part of what I consider a good cha lead.

ouch.

if you're moving with velocity and connected to your partner, some of that momentum would be transmitted through the connection, but since i draw on some aikido background, i have found it possible to be clear while using a minimal amount of force by concentrating that force to influence my partner's center of gravity. for example, a slight rotation of my partner's arm so that the palm is facing outward tends to straighten the arm. guiding the hand slightly downward generally prompts my partner to follow the hand and travel in that direction and of course, no movement generally locks my partner into place.

this kind of technique allows me to be able to influence the degree of travel in any cross body lead (not to mention most swing slot figures). this is particularly useful on a crowded floor. it is also possible to lead complete beginners in a salsa/mambo CBL without their knowing the footwork as long as they continue to move their feet in time with the basic. i do this quite regularly in class and every one of my partners has concurred that it doesn't feel forceful at all - mainly they look surprised because they're not sure how they got there.

the only time i use what i consider to be a lot of force is when i'm leading multiple turns and my partner is relying on me to provide the torque, but you don't see that much in formal ballroom dancing, i do that more in swing and salsa.

[dancerman]

:notworth:

Wow!!!

I love this reply. Short, to the point, and no wasted space.

[dancerman]

[quote=tsb;558700]perhaps if the words strong vs. weak were replaced with words such as clear vs. ambiguous it would be easier to understand.

I really agree. The word strong sounds very controlling.
My lead really seem to fluctuate, at least in my own mind. Sometimes, in social dancing, I feel like I can really lead the dance. Other times, I feel like partners don't follow me. I think it's confidence and attitude, with me, that is. If I am tired, my lead suffers.

[euchoreo]

ouch.

if you're moving with velocity and connected to your partner, some of that momentum would be transmitted through the connection, but since i draw on some aikido background, i have found it possible to be clear while using a minimal amount of force by concentrating that force to influence my partner's center of gravity.

I agree that a minimal amount of force is needed... when the person you're leading is accustomed to moving at the speed at which you would like them to. There are also some people who simply would not be comfortable moving any faster. There are, I think, another group you CAN, but don't move quickly. A good many of them sometimes need a little more encouragement to accelerate.

Ok. What I wrote can sound really bad, but I'm trading a little surprise force vs loss of balance. The ability to have that faster speed and precise movement improves their overall balance because they're able to get to a position before being asked to move onto the next.

I do actively ask follows I dance with whether they think I'm overdoing it. (Granted the might think I am without saying so).