What’s WRONG with salsa?

[SDsalsaguy]

What’s WRONG with salsa?
(. . . AKA dancers aren't the dance)

I hate making this post, but it’s the culmination of several factors. Don’t get me wrong, I *love* salsa! I don’t think I became me until I discovered salsa and had made it part of my life. And I know my life is infinitely richer for it. When I’ve been traveling or life has piled up on me and I haven’t had a chance to dance in a while I get antsy, I know something is missing from my life. It is only when I again dance salsa that my soul can say “Aaaaahhh . . . now I am again complete.”

So what’s WRONG with salsa? In one word, EGOS! I love salsa more than any other dance, but I’m continually amazed at how arrogant and egotistical salsa dancers can be. Far worse, in fact, than in any other dance style I have ever seen.

I understand, of course, that dancing takes skill and that we all appreciate appreciation of our skills, especially those that we have worked hard to achieve. But why does this have to be at the expense of others? Why do so many salsa dancers totally ignore the ramifications of their conduct, both on and off the floor? What of the instructor who says that they’ll dance with anyone but blows off everyone in the club who isn’t (A) an advanced dancer, or (B) one of their own paying students. What of the dancer who says that it’s all about their partner but then spends all of their time on the floor showing themselves off and looking to everyone in the vicinity for ongoing appreciation? What of the advanced dancer who refuses to adjust to the level of their partner and, rather than leaving the newer dancer with a treasured experience ends up running roughshod on their burgeoning love of dance? What of the dancer who talk about how much they encourage new blood in the salsa clubs but turns around to make snide remarks to their friends about the newer but less accomplished dancers on the floor? Why take up more than your share of floor space just so you can show off with your “latest and greatest” tricks?

I guess what I'm really asking though, is why are so many salsa dancers so insecure? Arrogance, after all, only screams one thing to me . . . “if I was comfortable and confident with myself I wouldn’t have to ram it down your throat; I wouldn't need to make others little in order to make myself big.”

So what is it about the salsa I love so much that seems to attract such a disproportionate proportion of egotisticism/arrogance/insecurity? I wish I could understand this, because this is the part of salsa that makes me so very, very sad . . . :cry:

[youngsta]

You know what, I couldn't agree more. And I just can't put my finger on why so many are like that. :(

[danceguy]

Great post SD...I'm going through a real trial by fire with my Salsa dancing these days...some days I'm in heaven...other days its pure hell. But overall I do enjoy and love the dance...so for now I think I'm going to stay with it. I've seen most of the other beginner Salseros in my area give up...and people that I've brought to check the scene out found it to be "too fast and really intimidating." :shock:

I do love the music and the dance...but some of the folks I meet out there are certainly not my cup of tea. I always approach a dance feeling very positive, and sometimes the energy just doesn't jive with me...and when that happens I know its time to go. Usually this is when there's too many people showing off and looking for something other than dance...but thankfully there are those times when there is so much positive energy...and everyone's up on the floor having fun together. I just need to have this happen a bit more often in my case. :? :oops:

On our own, as individuals we can steer clear of having oversized egos and always be welcoming and kind towards new folks to the Salsa scene. This is what I do, and hopefully others will in return.

For now, I'm going to keep doing Salsa, but also work on my Merengue and Bachata. Sitting down is not an option in my case. ;)

Best,

SG

[brujo]

You can bitch and moan all you want, but it makes perfect business sense for instructors to dance with their students only. If you think about it, a dance instructor spends a big chunck of time on their feet, teaching students all day, privates, etc. When they hit the clubs, it is their own free time. I say let them dance with whoever they enjoy dancing with. They only have a limited amount of time in the clubs, who the hell are you to dictate who they should dance with and who they shouldn't? Why would an instructor want to spend time helping an absolute beginner who may not know what they are doing instead of helping paying students develop the skill and confidence they need to advance in their own dancing?

Not to rip on beginners, we were all there and know how awkward it feels. But if you are a little more advanced, many of them are downright intimidated by you. It is simply not enjoyable to go through many dances where the other person is constantly saying 'sorry' instead of connecting and trying to dance with you. I remember perfectly all those times that I was rejected on the dance floor starting up, and all those times when the girls had that bored look over their eyes. It is a great motivator, it makes you want to work hard, it makes you want to get to that level if only to prove them wrong.

You'll always have egos whenever there are more than two people in one room. It is human nature. Jelousy, insecurities, misunderstandings, etc. Deal with it. You try to create this perfect place where everyone caters to the beginners, making them comfortable and fun and all lovey dovey ( studio socials, private parties, etc ), but once they get out of that safety bubble and hit the clubs, they'll choke and sophocate and lose all the love for the dance.

If you feel belittled by the way other people dance, it is your own problem. Most of the 'elite' dancers I know are awesome people, but you wouldn't know it by making assumptions on the way they dance. Some people choose to express their enjoyment of the music through tricks and dips, others enjoy expressing it through connection and subtleness. It is their own personal choice, and they live with the consequences. If you let the way other people dance affect you, or let them dictate how you dance, you will be absolutely miserable.

[Sagitta]

Yup. Plenty of people with egos on the salsa dance floor and more so then other dances. Not sure why this is the case too! :? Anyway, as SG said I do my best not to let that rub off on me, and as I get to know some of those others try to let my attitude rub off on them. :)

[danceguy]

Honestly Brujo, I don't think "catering to beginners" is what was meant by SD's post. My experience has been with anyone in any situation where they feel the need to give the "sink or swim" mentality to a beginner, that person isn't so advanced as they would like to think. More often than not, they're envious of that person becoming as good (or better) than they are...and will do whatever they can do to discourage this person from doing so. Fear and insecurity, tried and true.

Things change when people change...and the excuse of "that's the way it is, deal with it," may apply in some scenarios..but its quite a cop out if you ask me. If everyone followed that mentality...our ancestors would have never left their countries and set out for new soil...thereby coming together to create a new culture. As I see it, Salsa is the spirit of the freedom that many people came together to create.

For instance, I had a boss once who had a fit and yelled at me because I spoke up to him. He later apologized and said "as you may have noticed, I have a temper."

Sorry charlie, but that BS won't fly with me! Said better "I don't know how to control my temper, especially in a professional manner."

We all have tempers, we all have egos. How do we find the balance between what is socially acceptable? Or do we make up our own rules because its easier for us? Its quite easy to be an a**h*le in our modern society, and you can get very far by imposing your will on others. Learning a little compassion and humility is quite challenging...and most people never bother to do so.

A lady of Native American heritage once told me that when visiting another nation, she commonly would be tested to see how tough she was. This may not mean a lot to some folks, but in the eyes of this other tribe, she was representing her entire nation. So, if she showed weakness, then the other tribe would look at all of her people as being weak.

So, if we love and live Salsa and choose to act brash and arrogant, what kind of a message are we sending to the rest of the Salsa community and the world at large?

SG

[salsachinita]

This post strikes a cord......I need to think about it some more before writing a proper reply.

For now, I would share with you guys a recent quote from my wise salsero friend from Sydney, after receiving an e-mail from me (during one of my moments):

>I just wish people can be themselves. There is way
> too much ego involved........would'nt it be great if
> people could be secured/matured enough to relate to
> others without playing games....? *said salsachinita*

C'est la vie.
Everybody wants something. For some people salsa is
their big chance to be A Player - valued, respected,
desired etc - so it's no surprise that there's some
bad behaviour. It's actually surprising that there's
so much good behaviour...

Soon after I read this I had discovered that some of those accused of having ego/attitudes were just as (if not more) insecured/intimidated as the rest of us........

I guess egos/attitudes are great hiding places/comfort zone :roll: ...........

*so salsa is a great medium for these behaviours to materialised/manifestered....?*

[salsarhythms]

It does not make "perfect business sense" for an instructor
to just dance with his/her students. In fact, it is an idiotic,
stupid, and insecure thing to do.

As a business person, you welcome new faces, you treat
everyone with respect so that you can flourish both personally
and professionally...you don't go out of your way to discourage...

But I have a theory as to why many do this:

It's one thing to chose who you dance with, but I think what
SD is talking about is more of the cliques that get formed.

In my opinion, anyone who promotes these "cliques" is as
insecure as anything else.

How safer can that get? I mean get real here...

No dancer will question you, you'll always look great because
every student is taught by you so therefore they will know what
you are going to do next...yeah real "safe little world".

That's the problem with salsa now. People think that by doing
this you can elevate yourself to another level...a "player", or
perhaps "better than the next".

Well guess what...all a person does by doing this is proving
just how insecure they really are.

In one of the posts someone made a reference to a "nice little box
or world"...to me these people are the ones creating this nice little
box by playing it safe.

Not taking a risk.

Guess what...

If you're a male instructor and you look bad dancing with someone
IT'S YOUR FAULT.

If you're a female instructor and you look bad dancing with someone
IT'S YOUR FAULT.

Not the "beginner's" fault...YOURS...

As the male instructor, you must lead to the person's ability.

As the female instructor, you must follow to the person's ability.

There wouldn't be a chance to look bad.

But noooooooo

That's too risky!!

God forbid someone sees this "glorified" instructor and possibly think
that they are not as good as they thing they are...no we can't have
that...

I've seen it too many times and it is sickening.

The guys look like total losers...complete idiots.

You know what...

Lighten up. Dance with people. Avoid cliques. Socialize.

I mean you don't HAVE TO do that, but don't go in there with an air
of superiority when in fact you're just a scared little kid...

Is that harsh?

Well, yes. But that's what children do when they feel threatened...they
look to what's familiar...it doesn't get any more familiar than your own
students...

But if you just step back and enjoy the simple things, it makes it
much better for everyone...

In fact, in my latest newsletter I had an article about enjoying the
small things...I think we all need to do that. Read it here:

http://www.salsa-rhythms.com/nl/issue22.htm

[salsachinita]

Fernando, I love your article......it means so much to me in many levels, and I would like everyone to read it.

Would you consider posting it on 'Funstuff & Inspirations' or 'articles' forums.....?

[salsarhythms]

You know, I have to add this...

I'm away on business so I've just been taking a cursory look at the
posts and I must also add that I agree with some of the things that
Brujo mentions...

I mean, you're right, who you choose to dance with should be of
no one's concern but yours.

And I can relate to Brujo's experience as a beginner and having
to learn the ropes, like Brujo did.

The thing is that we are not the same.

The way one person deals with adversity is different from how the
person next to you would deal with it.

Me personally, I'm the type of person to grab the bull by its horns
and roll with the punches...

Others aren't like that.

The point is that we must be tolerant of one another and respect
the way we deal with our situations.

And as an instructor, or a person who others look to for guidance
it's a responsibility to help.

If you're just in it for the money, or the popularity, then you're
doing it for the wrong reasons and eventually you will fail.

It's just a fact of life.

However, by taking other people into consideration and respecting
how each person deals with their own dilemas is crucial.

So yes, there are people with egos the size of mansions, but we
have to take the good with the bad.

My point is that if you are in a position of responsibility, you owe
it to those under your care.

[SDsalsaguy]

Just to be clear on this point, what I actually wrote was:

What of the instructor who says that they’ll dance with anyone but blows off everyone in the club who isn’t (A) an advanced dancer, or (B) one of their own paying students.

My point wasn't that instructors shouldn't be free (just like anyone else) to dance with whom they choose, just that they -- like all the other "characters" I mentioned -- shouldn't be such hypocrites.

[tsb]

could at least part of it be due to the fact that salsa is culturally latin-centric vs. ballroom doing euro-centric if not anglo-centric, and that plays an influence, at least where it comes to dance etiquette? i guess that i'm also suggesting that the culture associated with salsa might attract the types of personalities/behaviors observed. certainly you're not going to expect a lot of flamboyant exhibitionist types flocking to waltz or foxtrot!

[Sabor]

interesting topic.. yet very difficult to reply..

i can see the points behind SD's words and see part of the truth BUT i also see what is between the lines in Brujo's post and another side of the truth

my simplest explanation would be due to perception on one hand and of how people are like inside.. the answer is not absolute, but really relative and subjective.. were one sees confidence and carefree another might see vanity and belittlement .. or the opposite.. this does not mean either are right or either are wrong.. but its more like how one values things according to their own image of themselves.. and how they deal in life

i think that in salsa.. as in life, a person will give impressions according to how they act that flows from how they are as people.. salsa would just intensify that projection given its nature and make it more obvious to onlookers.. YET as in daily life, your impression to that is subjective and differs from others .. as is normal.. and very possibly too one often gets the wrong impression untill they get to know the person a little more.. but u see .. salsa environment does not allow for that much interaction .. actually it magnifies impressions just based on what is observed cause simply its dance thus art thus exhibition is a big component..

Ok i'm like ranting on here and loosing track of what i'm trying to say.. sorry.. what i'm saying is.. nothing will harm u .. if u dont let it.. just do it like u enjoy doing it and leave the rest to karma.. salsa is a means not an end of itself and people will use it differently and subjectively.. altho we all love heaven and perfection .. earth is where we live .. and so its always gona be good and bad together .. and even that is relative.. it cannot be explained.. so just do it your way.. and if that makes u feel good end of the day.. thats good enough.. and if it doesn't .. its time to change something about yourself .. because changing others is very improbable if not impossible.. they gotta do that on their own and according to their own self rating system.. in my opinion.

[Vince A]

Good thing some of you salseros and salseras are learning to WCS . . . then you'll be lucky enough to dance with people who don't have egos/attitudes :roll:

[Vin]

SD, interesting points. One thing I have noticed with salsa that goes inline with what you are saying. What is it about salsa that leads to not accepting beginnners?
By that I mean the attitude of "you should learn with someone else before you dance with me" ?
It seems alot more prevalent in salsa than other dance communities.

[Sabor]

By that I mean the attitude of "you should learn with someone else before you dance with me" ?

SD would probably give this better depth of answer.. or may be even disagree with my interpretation.. but since i saw this i just will quickly say that there is a wide scale of difference between an advanced and beginner salsa dancer.. that however, does not excuse rudeness.. since one can always choose being polite and encouraging.. if the person is rude that is his/her issue .. not salsa's

because there are various salsa styles and levels.. it could get complicated in technical and creative terms.. if u are advanced .. and u are looking to get your 'dance fix'.. the only one that can deliver is another advanced dancer.. nothing less will do unless u are in a carefree mood and wouldn't mind messing around.. but as u get higher and higher in salsa scale u tend to get more and more picky.. the harder and harder it gets for u to go back to where u left.. ok, maybe a few dances here and there but the majority is with those who challenge your abilities..

[borikensalsero]

My idea of salsa isn't as simple as how I fit into things, but more of something that is represented in my persona. Whereever I go and I dance, I’m not only dancing for myself nor representing myself. I am representing salseros and the salsa community, I am representing that which I love and has become my lifestyle. Hence, I chose to portray the good qualities about myself, and those that I want to root in salsa. I am showing those around me the culture that I choose to live. I want to display the positive in it, I want to keep alive all the positive that attracted me to SALSA and abolish the pettiness of the ME ME ME personalities, those who don’t know the difference between a humble display of skill and an egotistical display of the same. I sit here and hope to represent salsa not as its ghetto meaning, but as something that can have a positive impact not only on me but those around me and society as a whole.

I am always welcoming new faces. I do my best to show them the good side of salsa, for I know that the good fellow next to me will only give them a face and speak behind their back as soon as they are done dancing.

Salsa is more than I. It is the whole that people don’t see, for some people really think that I is the whole.

Salsa will never be about me nor what I can do, nor how much time I’ve spent busting my butt, therefore I have the right to display what I can do in the dance-floor, regardless of what anyone thinks. I am going to do things how I see fit! NO, there is no I in salsa. I could careless about anyone’s perspective of dancing salsa is if it’s damaging to that which I love. Believe me, if someone walked into my house and treated my family as they treat those around them in the salsa-world, I’d toss their behinds out and never allow them back in my house. For my world isn’t about how you see things, but how you can benefit the world and make us a better. All that really matters at the end is how good of a society salsa creates within its members. Not the divisions nor social castes it creates.

I can’t just sit there and see the arrogant face so popular in NY City. The arrogance of I can do this and you can’t! The, I’m not dancing with you because I am here to enjoy myself! As if enjoyment was relevant to what we do not what we think of that which we do. Fools in my mind! He who blames others for a lack of that which he has, and he who seeks an egotistical supremacy to truly state enjoyment of the self!

The salsa world should worry more about the good of the community instead of individual EGOS. It is ridiculous that people think the best for the group is the best for ME. What am I saying! Salseros aren’t even worried about the group they are worried about themselves, and how they look in the eyes of others.

We have all as beginners gone trough the lack luster attitudes that salserso dish out. Yet, when we get there what do we do? We think of I and return the same behavior we at one time hated to receive. However, do it to the wrong people, the beginners who are only looking to enjoy themselves and be part of something with so much to offer. With an excuse justified by stupidity, as if your actions really didn’t affect others, directly or indirectly, we should care about everyone not just who I AM. The attitude of, it happened to me... let them go trough it too, has to change. But many instead of changing the harmful behaviors that salsa is so darn popular for, feed it even more.

Of course the Salsero only sees I in the picture. Perspective usually is what is best for me, not us but ME. The good old imperialists view that I have every right to do as I please, screw others, let them leave, let them not dance with me. NEGATIVITY at its best! Yet, backed by the excuse that I’m here for ME. Hehe as if being in a social group really allows me to not have an impact on the group.

I’m not saying not to dance like you want to dance. All I am saying is that you can choose to be a good person while you dance. Don’t blame being unable to gratify yourself from a simple basic dance on the other person. It has to do with you, not others but YOU. The perspective you chose to live by has yet to progress to the next level, the next level isn’t about I but everyone, the good of I as long as it is beneficial for us. The enjoyment of giving to others all you can give, the pleasure that it is to see a beginners face when they dance with one of the best dancers in town, the pleasure that you might just have had a huge impact on this person’s life or even a little one. The simple pleasure that what you are giving someone something they couldn’t have done alone, or may be with others. The simple pleasure that they are giving you their time, therefore, you owe that person the gratitude of showing them that their time gifted to you will indeed be well received and admired.

The true character of a person shows with their treatment towards those who mean nothing to him. Leave that big fat EGO that thinks that it needs to belittle others to be satisfied. There is huge difference in going all out and not being egotistical about it, and doing the same and coming across as a nasty individual. If you don’t know the difference there is nothing I can do. If you come across as a not a nice person to those who around you, then my friend you need to re-evaluate your perspective for that very thing is what you are displaying in the dance, your negative attitude of superiority. Some of these dancers are the same people who could careless about their impact in salsa’s life, for instead of building a place in Salsa they want to be SALSA.

Everyone sees that you are a stuck up dancer, yet you say this is me, take it or leave it. Hehe. Yeap, that is you, an idiot. This one person chooses to display a negative quality in their dancing, not a good one but a negative one. For some reason negativity is the best they can do to display their persona in a dance. You go Salsero! Keep displaying the worst in you because you have spent so much time and effort getting to this point that you might as well be arrogant to say the least, to others. Remember that being an A** isn’t a new thing…

Worse yet, is those dancers who actually carry that attitude when they aren’t dancing. The good ole this is ME, yet it is the you that says nothing but I am being negative and I chose to be a bad person to you and others because this is me. The community means nothing because all I care is about ME, take or leave it. God, it isn’t a question of take it or leave it, the question is for you to live by it. That Karma, which I don’t believe in, but you do, is leading you down a shabby path. Yet, you chose to act the same dance in and dance out because this is the “you” that you chose to tell people you are. The you who paid its dues, therefore, should be allowed to run over everyone because after all, this is YOU! Take me or leave me for I don’t care how my actions affect the whole, for my perspective says I am the whole.

God, this topic drives me NUTS!

[peachexploration]

SD, SalsaRhythms & Boriken, you guys rock! Well said. The only other thing I would like to add is sometimes this attitude is breeded within schools and unfortunately, the students are not always aware of it. Thinking maybe it's just part of the program. The hierarchy attitude or "petty" competitiveness starts there and carries over into the clubs and/or socials. Almost as if you're in highschool. Freshmen don't talk to sophmores and so on. :roll: Just a thought and I'm really curious if the NEGATIVENESS flows into the Salsa market? For example: A school hasn't had new students in a while, same old crowd with same old NEGATIVE attitudes towards others. So people who would LOVE to learn, don't because they are made to feel that they are less of person because they are not in the advance class. :? A salsa club stays open only two months because it's dominated by the same old crowd from the same old school with the same old NEGATIVE attitudes. Surely, there are a whole lotta contributions to failed/stunted growth of the Salsa community, I just wonder if this is one of them. Hmmmm.....

[salsachinita]

All that really matters at the end is how good of a society salsa creates within its members. Not the divisions nor social castes it creates.

:notworth: :notworth: :notworth: This just about sums it up, Boriken! :notworth: :notworth: :notworth:

Looking at the big picture, this is indeed how it has to be.....

....but sometimes I lie awake at night, wondering if I had been guilty doing things that I've been advocating against.........

A few years ago I used to only dance with people familiar (ie. 'old school') to me. Reasons.....?
1. I was a lot less secured & got intimidated by the different styles.
2. I was less skilled as a follower.
3. I was afraid to give beginners a chance because I believed as a follower, I had NOTHING to offer.
4. I didn't want to seem like a 'show-off', as I was conditioned by my ex/mentor & heavily influenced by HIS views (instead of my own :roll: ).
5. I didn't think my action would make ANY difference to anyone.

Two main factors changed me forever:
1. Discovery of Edie Salsafreak's writing
2. My familiar group started to disappeared from the scene, as 'evolution' started to take effect. All of a sudden there were NO ONE to dance with :shock: !

Then I realised that if I always do what I've always done, I would always get what I've always got :shock: .

No one benefit from this. Least of all, myself. So I started to change.

There is still a long way to go, but I am doing my little bits. Sure, we are ALL looking to get that fix when we hit the clubs, but surely there is room in all of us for nuturing.......

AND we can all make a difference....small miracles can & do happen :wink: !

[tsb]

SD, interesting points. One thing I have noticed with salsa that goes inline with what you are saying. What is it about salsa that leads to not accepting beginnners?
By that I mean the attitude of "you should learn with someone else before you dance with me" ?
It seems alot more prevalent in salsa than other dance communities.

more than WCS?

Good thing some of you salseros and salseras are learning to WCS . . . then you'll be lucky enough to dance with people who don't have egos/attitudes :roll:

oh please.... i've been turned down because i don't compete regularly in jack & jill's.

i note that there is a commonality in that both dances are club dances & with salsa particularly there is a greater percentage of 'street' dancers...

[etchuck]

Part of the difference is that there is a certain egotistical machismo in many Latino cultures (at least in that as I perceive it, it's very heavily emphasized that the man be "the man"), so I guess since salsa is the popular style of dance of the current day, that could have something to do with it.

But otherwise, I do agree that the advanced salsero/as tend to dance only with those dancers in the clubs, and the rest of the beginning or insecure crowd tend to just stare and watch. It's not that I'm that intimidated, but I know I do more "ballroom salsa" and consequently I will ask people standing on the sidelines to dance, even if they don't know much. Probably if I started to take the intermediate salsa classes or start emulating more of the moves the salsa folks will do in many of the video clips you have pointed out (for which I am very grateful), maybe someone will notice and actually figure out I dance pretty decently, even if I don't do the multiple spin/hip bump thing.

Of course, that sort of social casting will occur in any dance that I've gone to. It's just a question of how willing someone is to dance with me. If they only do one type of dance (swing or salsa or even just "ballroom"), they tend to refuse more often than if they were more broad in their dancing (do more than one club dance or integrate with ballroom).

[Genesius Redux]

Good thing some of you salseros and salseras are learning to WCS . . . then you'll be lucky enough to dance with people who don't have egos/attitudes :roll:

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Brevity is indeed the soul of wit!

[aragonh]

Trying to lighten up the mood but dont you just love it when you ask a lady (or guy for those ladies brave enough) to dance and they look at you up and then say no.

Before I would have felt rejected, but now that Im more confident in my dance, I just laugh those people off!

[borikensalsero]

Trying to lighten up the mood but dont you just love it when you ask a lady (or guy for those ladies brave enough) to dance and they look at you up and then say no.

Before I would have felt rejected, but now that Im more confident in my dance, I just laugh those people off!

I think the best is when they look at you up and down for a few seconds before they accept. DAMN!!! wat'up, this is just a dance you know.

[aragonh]

I think the best is when they look at you up and down for a few seconds before they accept. DAMN!!! wat'up, this is just a dance you know.


I agree. Whats even better are those that think about it, say yes and then dance with you with an feeling/attitude that screams 'Im Bored here!!"

Then Im thinking
"Oh man, im stuck here not having fun for 4 minutes!! I wish she did say No!!"

LOL

[borikensalsero]

I think the best is when they look at you up and down for a few seconds before they accept. DAMN!!! wat'up, this is just a dance you know.


I agree. Whats even better are those that think about it, say yes and then dance with you with an feeling/attitude that screams 'Im Bored here!!"

Then Im thinking
"Oh man, im stuck here not having fun for 4 minutes!! I wish she did say No!!"

LOL

I agree, it is best for them to say no than stand there looking like they rather be fly fishing.

[danceguy]

The tough ones for me are people who make up lame excuses..I mean if you don't want to dance, just say "no" and I'll get the point. When someone says "oh, how about the next one?" or "I'm just resting right now, come back later" and then they get up to dance with someone else a minute later, that really shows bad character. :roll:

At least be honest...I rarely turn women down, only when I'm getting ready to leave and I always very polietly tell them that I'm leaving, and then I do because its the truth. :?

But yes...I'd rather someone say no than to be there looking bored out of their minds...then again when I'm having a bad dance, I just keep smiling and make the best of it...especially with a beginner.

I'm getting better at reading body language though...there are many ladies I won't go near at all...*brrrrr* :shock:

[squirrel]

weeeeeell, interesting debate...
to tell you the truth, i think SD is right, but others are right too...
let me tell you how i see it.
i used to be a lousy dancer, and got invited very little... i thought the guys were egotistic and wouldn't dance with me on account of my lack of skill, that they snubbed me a.s.o.... and then i changed my outfit (started to wear short skirts and tight pants...) and they were all inviting me... despite my lack of skill... but then it also changed 'cause i wouldn't get involved with them... some of them stopped inviting me even if i was getting better, and are still not inviting me now, when i am one of the best here and i even opened my own school! but others encouraged me and were nice, and for this i thank them!
now that i am a better dancer, i do not refuse invitations from anyone, unless the guy is ripping my hands off, or has a bad smell or is hitting on me hard...
of course i like dancing with those who have the same style as i have, it's easier, but i also enjoy the newcomers, with different styles, it is fun and even challenging...
still, let me tell you most beginners or intermediates DO NOT invite me! some even confessed to me they are scared of me! that i am so good! well, i'm not as good as they think. and i even invited them myself... still they almost never come to me... and i know it for a fact that some people think i'm arrogant! why? because i'm a good dancer? because i'm sick and tired of inviting all those guys to dance and not being invited by them? because i enjoy dancing with women (beginners or not) since they never refuse me?!
there are a lot of arrogant people out there, but i don't feel intimidated... i am dancing salsa to have fun! and they will never dissapear, no matter what we do... so why bother?!

[Sagitta]

An interesting perepective on the salsa scene in your corner of the world squirrel! Welcome to df!

[squirrel]

thanks, sagitta... hope to be around for long... very long, and not be too boring for you guys and gals...
and yes, my corner of the world is indeed fascinating... you'd be surprised if you came here!!! the most beautiful women in the world, some say... :))) - it's not a joke, i know many foreigners who moved to romania or are visiting it regularly due to the beautiful and interesting women here...

[borikensalsero]

thanks, sagitta... hope to be around for long... very long, and not be too boring for you guys and gals...
and yes, my corner of the world is indeed fascinating... you'd be surprised if you came here!!! the most beautiful women in the world, some say... :))) - it's not a joke, i know many foreigners who moved to romania or are visiting it regularly due to the beautiful and interesting women here...

Must go to romania! Who wants to join me? Romania has to be part of the tour! :D

[Mich]

Don't sell flyfishing short!

Dear hubby and I dropped by a Salsa World Congress last weekend, attended one of the workshops on NY style and was blown away by the moves and styling that were presented. We also watched some other workshops. As a relative beginner, I appreciated seeing the new steps were laid out and how the more familiar steps were stylized. This was in Rome with instructors from all over, but most of the participants were young and talented Italians.

But. In the various sessions I saw, there was very little presented on Connection. Without this skill, the leader and follower may stumble thru timing and steps, no matter what their level. That is my prejudice as a ballroom dancer where connection is constantly taught and re-taught.

And as a follower, it makes a big difference in my ability to keep up with the salsa leader.

Unfortunately, we did not have time to stay for the salsa shows and competitions. But I hope we can do so next time. It was a blast!
Mich

[danceguy]

Must go to romania! Who wants to join me? Romania has to be part of the tour!

Let's go man! SD, Youngsta, what say you? As long as we can visit Vlad the Impalers castle as well, count me in! :D

Hey, wait a minute Boriken...you've already got a girlfriend...so leave all those beautiful women for us single guys! ;)

SG

[borikensalsero]

Must go to romania! Who wants to join me? Romania has to be part of the tour!

Let's go man! SD, Youngsta, what say you? As long as we can visit Vlad the Impalers castle as well, count me in! :D

Hey, wait a minute Boriken...you've already got a girlfriend...so leave all those beautiful women for us single guys! ;)

SG

Hey, I can go fishing as long as i don't reel one in. :D :P

[danceguy]

Boriken, after seeing your posts and your picture, you don't need to even try to fish...I think you'd have a swarm of tiger sharks (aka Salseras) after you as soon as you walked in the club! :shock: ;)

Then I'll introduce myself and say "My friend here is taken, but I'm not! How about it baby?!?!?!" :D :P 8) :D :kissme:

Probably wouldn't work, but it'd be worth a try! ;)

[SDsalsaguy]

Must go to romania! Who wants to join me? Romania has to be part of the tour!
Let's go man! SD, Youngsta, what say you?
Heck yeah, count me in! Obviously a crucial stop on the DF world tour!!!!

[SDsalsaguy]

But. In the various sessions I saw, there was very little presented on Connection. Without this skill, the leader and follower may stumble thru timing and steps, no matter what their level. That is my prejudice as a ballroom dancer where connection is constantly taught and re-taught.
Funny you should mention this Mich, as a WCS dancer made the same complaint to me at the Reno event this past weekend... her comment was that she noticed that salsa classes really didn't go into connection the way that WCS classes did.

I pointed out that the classes she was comparing weren't exactly equivalent ones (i.e. all level WCS classes vs. Int/Adv salsa classes) and that it did vary from instructor to instructor, but she did have a point...

[borikensalsero]

Boriken, after seeing your posts and your picture, you don't need to even try to fish...I think you'd have a swarm of tiger sharks (aka Salseras) after you as soon as you walked in the club! :shock: ;)

Then I'll introduce myself and say "My friend here is taken, but I'm not! How about it baby?!?!?!" :D :P 8) :D :kissme:

Probably wouldn't work, but it'd be worth a try! ;)

hehe... You can always say like my girl has in the past. Oh that guy, he is gay, I wouldn't bother kicking it to him. :shock:

[Danish Guy]

still, let me tell you most beginners or intermediates DO NOT invite me! some even confessed to me they are scared of me! that i am so good! well, i'm not as good as they think. and i even invited them myself... still they almost never come to me... and i know it for a fact that some people think i'm arrogant! why? because i'm a good dancer? because i'm sick and tired of inviting all those guys to dance and not being invited by them?

I was scared too. Not to make a mistake, but to get a no, ot to see the bored look in the eyes. But to being asked, wow. Then they asked for it! I was able to give it my best shot without getting a bad conscience for boring the lady. :roll:

I still enjoy being asked, no matter the level of the dancer. And I do try to return the favour. :wink:

[Danish Guy]

thanks, sagitta... hope to be around for long... very long, and not be too boring for you guys and gals...
and yes, my corner of the world is indeed fascinating... you'd be surprised if you came here!!! the most beautiful women in the world, some say... :))) - it's not a joke, i know many foreigners who moved to romania or are visiting it regularly due to the beautiful and interesting women here...

Must go to romania! Who wants to join me? Romania has to be part of the tour! :D

Sounds like a tour :D

[tsb]

But. In the various sessions I saw, there was very little presented on Connection. Without this skill, the leader and follower may stumble thru timing and steps, no matter what their level. That is my prejudice as a ballroom dancer where connection is constantly taught and re-taught.
Funny you should mention this Mich, as a WCS dancer made the same complaint to me at the Reno event this past weekend... her comment was that she noticed that salsa classes really didn't go into connection the way that WCS classes did.

I pointed out that the classes she was comparing weren't exactly equivalent ones (i.e. all level WCS classes vs. Int/Adv salsa classes) and that it did vary from instructor to instructor, but she did have a point...

i've followed this thread and a lot of what i've read echoes why i left the salsa scene. i think more attention should be paid to input that comes from dancers outside the salsa world or at least from people who dance more than just salsa. but part of the problem with the salsa world is an apparent tunnel vision that seems to be a salsaholic characteristic.

[borikensalsero]

But. In the various sessions I saw, there was very little presented on Connection. Without this skill, the leader and follower may stumble thru timing and steps, no matter what their level. That is my prejudice as a ballroom dancer where connection is constantly taught and re-taught.
Funny you should mention this Mich, as a WCS dancer made the same complaint to me at the Reno event this past weekend... her comment was that she noticed that salsa classes really didn't go into connection the way that WCS classes did.

I pointed out that the classes she was comparing weren't exactly equivalent ones (i.e. all level WCS classes vs. Int/Adv salsa classes) and that it did vary from instructor to instructor, but she did have a point...

i've followed this thread and a lot of what i've read echoes why i left the salsa scene. i think more attention should be paid to input that comes from dancers outside the salsa world or at least from people who dance more than just salsa. but part of the problem with the salsa world is an apparent tunnel vision that seems to be a salsaholic characteristic.

How do we tell a fanatic that his message has been skewed by evil minds? How do we tell someone that because his righteous life has given him fruit it doesn’t mean that a less righteous life hasn’t given someone else as much fruit? How do we tell, he supreme of all dancers, that his way isn’t beneficial? After all his place in the realms of salsa very well allows him to feel and act supreme over others. How do we break a salsa democracy that strives in a world where the many search for the “I” neglecting that the scene is not for one but for all?

Leaving the scene shouldn’t be an option, we need more people willing to show the Egotistical personalities that a world of I is as lonesome as it sounds. We need to show these people a ride on the wild side! Please come back TSB, for little by little those who think like you will become the many and one day the scene can only smile welcome to each and everyone despite…

[tsb]

But. In the various sessions I saw, there was very little presented on Connection. Without this skill, the leader and follower may stumble thru timing and steps, no matter what their level. That is my prejudice as a ballroom dancer where connection is constantly taught and re-taught.
Funny you should mention this Mich, as a WCS dancer made the same complaint to me at the Reno event this past weekend... her comment was that she noticed that salsa classes really didn't go into connection the way that WCS classes did.

I pointed out that the classes she was comparing weren't exactly equivalent ones (i.e. all level WCS classes vs. Int/Adv salsa classes) and that it did vary from instructor to instructor, but she did have a point...

i've followed this thread and a lot of what i've read echoes why i left the salsa scene. i think more attention should be paid to input that comes from dancers outside the salsa world or at least from people who dance more than just salsa. but part of the problem with the salsa world is an apparent tunnel vision that seems to be a salsaholic characteristic.

How do we tell a fanatic that his message has been skewed by evil minds? How do we tell someone that because his righteous life has given him fruit it doesn’t mean that a less righteous life hasn’t given someone else as much fruit? How do we tell, he supreme of all dancers, that his way isn’t beneficial? After all his place in the realms of salsa very well allows him to feel and act supreme over others. How do we break a salsa democracy that strives in a world where the many search for the “I” neglecting that the scene is not for one but for all?

indeed. but i do think that the latin cultural underpinnings w/ the machismo thang goin' on contributes to the mentality and that won't go away.


Leaving the scene shouldn’t be an option, we need more people willing to show the Egotistical personalities that a world of I is as lonesome as it sounds. We need to show these people a ride on the wild side! Please come back TSB, for little by little those who think like you will become the many and one day the scene can only smile welcome to each and everyone despite…

hey, i still dance salsa, i just seldom frequent salsa only venues nowadays. and even amongst salsa dancers i have no real issue with, i often find a provincialism in their view that i personally find a little off-putting, that somehow salsa is THE only dance, all other dances are boring, etc. there are things i like about salsa, but doing just one style of dance all night to be pretty boring to me personally so if i'm at a swing / salsa / WCS / argentine tango venue the odds are that i'm there with one or more friends that i want to spend time with who probably only dance that dance, with salsa being highest on that list of odds. otherwise, i prefer more ballroomish-type venues that play a variety of different music so i can waltz, salsa, swing/lindy, WCS, argentine tango, etc. in a given evening because each dance allows me to express different aspects of my own personality as well as draw on unique aspects of the personalities of the people i choose to dance with. a friend who is a flirt/shameless ham is a natural choice for WCS whereas someone who's more reserved but a closet romantic is my choice for a waltz or foxtrot. and so it goes.

i should also note that i do also get called on jobs to perform, dance host, & teach, etc. from time to time so this may provide me an outlet where if i didn't have it the salsa world might have more appeal for me. also, since dance can be "work" for me i probably look at what i want out of social dancing a lot differently than most folks.

but i need to say that i do appreciate your reply. thank you.

[squirrel]

i've already invited everybody who wants to come to romania (on another forum) - i saw you guys want to meet somewhere and have fun together... i propose romania... why? for many reasons, one being there are so few good salseros here... i'm sure you guys are good (at least some of you) and i'd like to give it a try...
i dance LA style... i've also danced with a guy who knows cuban style (interesting and oh so different) and i tried on the 2 once (NY i guess, right?) - didn't really like it... :((
what do you think, guys? and gals? wanna give it a try and come to bucharest, romania?

[salsachinita]

Leaving the scene shouldn’t be an option, we need more people willing to show the Egotistical personalities that a world of I is as lonesome as it sounds. We need to show these people a ride on the wild side!

Indeed, Boriken! This is the exact goal I am working really hard towards.. a united salsa community, instead of a segragated one. Sometimes i feel really alone in this, as a lot of the people are unaware that we, as individuals, can make a difference. So, will my DF family join me on this one...? We can make it part of the mission along side the Grand World DF Tour :wink: .......!

but i do think that the latin cultural underpinnings w/ the machismo thang goin' on contributes to the mentality and that won't go away.

In my corner of the world it seems to be the non-latin side that becomes problematic........sure, Latinos are proud, but the real egotistic characters rarely come from them...... :?

[squirrel]

:))) salsachinita... i think a united salsa world would be ideal... but how to achieve it?
are you forgetting the inflated egos of salseros/salseras, the fact that 'their style' is 'THE VERY BEST'... the stupid arguments about whether we should dance on 1 or on 2 (or on 3, 4 5 etc. :))) - i hear it's the new fashion)... and oh so many other things... how do you see this 'union'? how can it be accomplished?!
hope your dream comes true though... it's my dream too... because salsa is OURS... it belongs to the WORLD!!!

[salsachinita]

... i think a united salsa world would be ideal... but how to achieve it?

I don't know about others but I can tell you my approach. The way I see it is very simple. Regardless of our own preferred timing or style, if we all branch out a little bit (doesn't have to be your entire evening), and dance/socialise/converse with people of different style/timing/school, we can all benefit from eachother's differences/experiences.

Then, more likely than not (as I have experienced it myself), we will realise that as salsa fanatics, we are more alike than we are different.

So is there any point to argue over who's better, or who can out-do whom...? Sure, skill/proficiency levels do come into the equation. But isn't being humble the best way to learn new things...?

*I think I've written too many posts along the same vein....better stop before my DF family go :roll: ...........*

[squirrel]

dear salsachinita,

your view of salsa is very close to mine... BUT:

how do you propose to really accomplish this? i mean, for christ's sake, i have people - salseros i mean - who wouldn't dance with me 'cause i didn't want to sleep with them, or because they do not want to sleep with me (and thus are not interested in my dancing either), some don't even say 'hi' anymore (i know most of the dancers or will get to know them sooner or later, the salsa world is quite small here)... i even had one guy who refused to dance with me during classes on account of his being 'so much better than i' - his own words and he added there's nothing he could learn from me... can you believe it?! i mean, at the time he WAS better than i, but now this has considerably changed... and still i think we can and SHOULD learn from everybody (btw, the teacher threw him out - he was too nasty and arrogant)...

[Sabor]

how do you propose to really accomplish this?

gradually.. in time.. its like a netting out process.. those who continue albiet with faulted perception will be smoothed out by experience and through sharing .. thru realization that the more u know the more u discover how limited u were and still are.. the more u become dependant on others to learn.. the more u respect others and yourself for accepting it.. the better u feel in your heart.. the more passion u gush.. the more u love the dance and everything about it.. then on its a never ending upward spiral of satisfaction y romance

its phases squirrel.. like anything it takes some time.. u just do your part and express what u stand for .. without being intimidated because time and passion of salsa is by your side.. no way will it let u down if u are true to it :wink:

u know.. people can try to change salsa.. but they end up just barely adding to it .. meanwhile they discover that salsa has changed them soul out.. and in the process discarded those with no soul to deliver.. now aint salsa cooooool or what!?! 8)

[salsachinita]

thru realization that the more u know the more u discover how limited u were and still are.. ... .. meanwhile they discover that salsa has changed them soul out.. and in the process discarded those with no soul to deliver.. now aint salsa cooooool or what!?! 8)

:notworth: :notworth: :notworth: :notworth: :notworth:

[cocodrilo]

I can say only how utterly intimidated I was when I first started dancing latin dance and that I noticed the "egos" right away! Salsarythms has it right when he says that "a businessperson should welcome new faces". This is truly my credo as I am now producing salsa events and in order to get a flock of newcomers to join in would gladly take them to the mirror and show them a few basic steps! I, too, have also noticed "cliques" at salsa events and this, too, can be irritating to new learners of latin dance when they are left standing around because everyone sticks to the familiar faces or members of their dance classes. A good dancer, male or female, can make ANY beginner look good, so I think instructors ought to go out there and ask people to dance(hey, isn't this a way of drumming up business? my business partner/instructor will dance with everyone!)!!! If they are tired from teaching dance all day they ought to stay home and take a bath! tsb mentions something about latin attitude but it happens over here in Japan, so one might call it "Asian attitude" as well. Dancing shouldn't cause stress, it should be a means to relieve it! I think a lot of people are taking personal baggage onto the dance floor. Lighten up, smile for heaven's sake, and HAVE A GOOD TIME!

[squirrel]

:))) cocodrilo, i know exactly what you mean!! when i started salsa, i also noticed the inflated egos... and now, as an instructor, i DO invite beginners, BUT: as i've said before, they DO NOT invite me back... not even when i am all alone, all the 'good guys' are taken and i move to the beat, make eye contact and smile to them... so sometimes i get sick and tired of always inviting them myself... they should also do it! just come up to me and ask for a dance!

[Sabor]

thru realization that the more u know the more u discover how limited u were and still are.. ... .. meanwhile they discover that salsa has changed them soul out.. and in the process discarded those with no soul to deliver.. now aint salsa cooooool or what!?! 8)

:notworth: :notworth: :notworth: :notworth: :notworth:

LOL.. oh no no carinita.. this is not a smiley to be used by such as you .. to one such as me.. for u are the calibre of lady that i would kiss her hand b4 the dance and both her hands after (if it wouldnt bother u that is :oops: ) and in between them heaven by salsa :P

[MapleLeaf Salsero]

gradually.. in time.. its like a netting out process.. those who continue albiet with faulted perception will be smoothed out by experience and through sharing .. thru realization that the more u know the more u discover how limited u were and still are.. the more u become dependant on others to learn.. the more u respect others and yourself for accepting it.. the better u feel in your heart.. the more passion u gush.. the more u love the dance and everything about it.. then on its a never ending upward spiral of satisfaction y romance

Really nice post Sabor!

[swinginstyle]

Speaking of egos, we have a first-class ego here in our KC salsa community. He expects people to always call him, he rarely, if ever calls anyone back. Quite frankly, he's a pain in the butt. On the other hand, there's another guy who really built our scene from the ground up. He invests the time calling people back and showing respect to other members of the dance community. Regardless of talent or ability, I will give my business to the person that shows me respect, not arrogant ego-maniacs.

[D-spot]

What’s WRONG with salsa?
(. . . AKA dancers aren't the dance)

So what’s WRONG with salsa? In one word, EGOS! I love salsa more than any other dance, but I’m continually amazed at how arrogant and egotistical salsa dancers can be. Far worse, in fact, than in any other dance style I have ever seen.



Consider the demographics in comparison to ballroom. Salseros tend to be younger (yeah I know there are many exceptions in both fields, go with the generic not the specific, you'll see where I am going) and less well trained.
Now remmeber, the majority of people out there are cool dudes and just want to have a good time and are well grounded in reality. It only takes a few to spoil the good vibes (apples and barrels). Younger often means more insecure, they feel they have more to prove, need to attract attention, any attention is better than no attention at all (positive strokes and negative strokes are better than no strokes at all - Transactional Analysis talk).
Soooo, you get these young bloods out to impress (the old mating game, and once you get old, you usually have a mate) anyone and anything. Perhaps they aren't progressing at work as fast as they want, perhaps life in general isn't treating them as good as they feel they deserve (time teaches a good lesson, god I feel old saying all this). So, they get out to the clubs with a chip on their shoulder and all they can think about is themselves and how good they can look. They need to be part of the 'in-crowd', they need to accolades of others and to have swooning girls at their feet (unfortunately it is the male of the species that fluffs up his feathers for attention).

Is there hope? Most assuredly yes. Time will tell. Most of them will start looking outside the box and see what is happening around them and hopefully mature into a great dancer showing concern for their partner.

D-spot

[D-spot]

A good thing did happen the other day at a salsa club (I am one of that rare breed of crossovers, I dance in both the ballroom world and the salsa world).
Tired after a long day at work, not really in the mood I turned up at a club, stayed for 30 minutes and then got my coat. This is a good thing? Not yet.
As I was about to leave the doorman stopped me and asked pleasantly why I was going so early. I explained that I was both tired and that I new very few people in the club (newish cluba nd I have been out of the scene for a couple of months, finances and time, same ol' same ol'). He offered to introduce me around to a few people.
What a great offer. I shall definitely be going back there and taking him up on his offer. The more people like that around then the more salsa (or any dance) will grow, and in a good way.

Why do people want to dance (salsa or otherwise)? I personally believe it is to meet people and develop a social life and dance is a tool to be used to get there.
How can we help the dance world? It benefits us all in the long run.
Promote your local studio and dance clubs.
Introduce newcomers to your established contacts (we have a guy here in Toronto called Terry Z who does this all the time, most people appreciate such introductions and only a few don't, keep up the great work Terry).
Be prepared to dance with newcomers, good dancers or beginners. Everyoe will eventually improve.
Finally, (what I tell my students, the few I have) dance 100% for your partner. Not 50%. If they do the same in return then the world will spin on a new axis, the sun will always shine, disease and hardship will disappear, and you will eternally be wealthy. Well, okay, you know what I mean.

D-spot

[borikensalsero]

D-spot

Can I just say that I love your attitude!!! I'm glad to see people from all parts of the world trying to achieve a positive attitude in the salsa world. :D

[peachexploration]

D-spot

Can I just say that I love your attitude!!! I'm glad to see people from all parts of the world trying to achieve a positive attitude in the salsa world. :D

Ditto Boriken! Welcome D-Spot. :D

[Sabor]

Really nice post Sabor!

Gracias ML!

[D-spot]

Thanks all.
I used to post to another board but got tired of the negative attitude. Nice here ain't it!
D-spot
Just love to dance with anyone, anytime, at any level, any style.

[salsachinita]

Welcome to DF, D-spot!

Thankyou for your positive contribution to this thread (as well as the salsa scene) which means so much to me.

I love having crossover fellow dancers 8) ........I am a crossover within the salsa context only :oops: ........

The introduction thing is something I do regularly (ok, occasionally it's not to my personal best interest*), I take pride in doing so......to me it's like showing off my own garden to visitors :D .

*By introducing great visiting salseros to my local salseras, I lose my turns to dance with them sometimes :roll: as there are just too many females here in my local scene.......they all seem to fight over the very few good leads.......*

[salsachinita]

.. for u are the calibre of lady that i would kiss her hand b4 the dance and both her hands after (if it wouldnt bother u that is :oops: ) and in between them heaven by salsa :P

:oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops:

.......any time, senor, anytime.........

[Vince A]

What’s WRONG with salsa?
(. . . AKA dancers aren't the dance)

So what’s WRONG with salsa? In one word, EGOS! I love salsa more than any other dance, but I’m continually amazed at how arrogant and egotistical salsa dancers can be. Far worse, in fact, than in any other dance style I have ever seen.

So what is it about the salsa I love so much that seems to attract such a disproportionate proportion of egotisticism/arrogance/insecurity? I wish I could understand this, because this is the part of salsa that makes me so very, very sad . . . :cry:
You know . . . I never saw the "relevance" of this until I watched you dance, versus the "other Salsa dancers" dance this past week.

I observed noses stuck way up in the air . . . "Hey, look at me (as I walk in the door)" . . . ""Hey, check out this strut." . . . "WOW . . . is my hat and goatee look cool or what?" . . . "Watch how many moves I can get in this eight-count beat." . . . "Watch how many times I can this beoch" . . . . . . . . . . . and so on.

What I observed, was, as you say . . . a disproportionate proportion of egotisticism/arrogance/insecurity. I can understand, when you are a Pro dancer, and you are very good, and you are used to being in the limelight on the floor . . . and so on . . . but damn, there were only a few dancers of this caliber there on the Salsa floor . . . including you. But they all had egos, including the worst dancer on the floor.

So, I ask you . . . you are every bit as good as any of those dancers. Why didin't you have that "disproportionate proportion of egotisticism/arrogance/insecurity" syndrome???

Maybe this will help to answer the question you began with????????

[Sarah]

A good dancer, male or female, can make ANY beginner look good,

I think that your statement here is debatable[1], but accepting it at face value, one conclusion that could be drawn is that the `instructors' you refer to ain't that good. :lol:

Cheers
Sarah

[1] There are some leaders that can make any follower look hopeless. Thats why the null hypothesis is that its the leaders fault. Sorry guys ;)

[brujo]

I think we need to beware of the strawman of uberEGO.

It is always easier to blame the more advanced dancers of performing the intricate moves because of ego, because they want to show off, because they need to perform and be in the spotlight.

But I am sure that each and everyone of us finds that after a while, we are doing the exact same moves as the people we once critisized, but never to stroke our own egos. We might rationalize our initial judgement, 'oh, but now I know the music better so I am dancing because it moves my soul', to the casual observer, you are just a dance snob.

I dare say that while BorikenSalsero sounds like a really nice knowledgeable guy, if we were to judge him only by the way he dances or acts in a club, he would come off as a snob with his triple spins and his rumba movements. The colored lens of our own insecurities always make the worst beer goggles.

The problem and joy of encouraging beginners is that there is always a new batch. The salsa scene is always a rotating door of people of different levels of interest. Some people move faster than others, some don't. Some stay and become good dancers, some leave. While dancing and encouraging a beginner is the nice thing to do, sometimes you just want to follow or lead someone without being a babysitter and enjoying the dance, much harder to do with a beginner than someone familiar.

But when we all started off not knowing our left feet from our right feet, the more advanced dancers will seem distant and hard to approach. We can carry our own insecurities through our journey of becoming salsa gods, or we can put them aside and really get to know the people in our scene. As I start to befriend more dancers in my scene, I am starting to discover that a lot of the people I thought were advanced dance snobs have the same attitudes, but seem superegotistical only because of my own fears and prejudices.

I don't think anyone actually goes dancing with the attitude that they are to be worshipped and adored. Half the time we are just racing through our own fears in our minds, 'what if I miss this double spin?' 'what if I can't follow?', 'what if I look like a complete idiot?'.

So there, the problem with salsa is not the egos. The problem with salsa is that we are all so damn scared to talking to the real people that are in our scenes. We prejudge the people around us based on the way they dance, not taking them for who they are, but who we think they are based on some ridiculous ideals we have about dancing and the state of their souls. Magnify this by every dancer in your scene, and it becomes the poison vine that chokes the life out of the salsa we love.

[MapleLeaf Salsero]

There are some leaders that can make any follower look hopeless.

Well, I think it´s much more difficult to make the follower look bad than good. Therefore, I guess we should congratulate these leads for doing something near to impossible... :wink: :wink: LOL!

[MapleLeaf Salsero]

As I start to befriend more dancers in my scene, I am starting to discover that a lot of the people I thought were advanced dance snobs have the same attitudes, but seem superegotistical only because of my own fears and prejudices.

I´ve noticed the same thing. Most of these cliques and advanced snobs are actually really nice people. :shock:. I danced with this clique for the first time last week. She was very advanced. I noticed however that during the first 30 seconds, she was very nervous. After she started relaxing a bit she started smiling a lot. :shock: I would never have expected that... I think she really enjoyed the dance. I believe the nervous part was due to the fact that she was outside her comfort zone. She always dances with the cliques and gets nervous when dancing with someone else...

[peachexploration]

I dare say that while BorikenSalsero sounds like a really nice knowledgeable guy, if we were to judge him only by the way he dances or acts in a club, he would come off as a snob with his triple spins and his rumba movements. The colored lens of our own insecurities always make the worst beer goggles....

I know you were only using this as an example but, a snob is a snob is a snob. There's a humility that Boriken has that snobs just don't have or possess. Whether they write it or demonstrate it publicly. A snob would never help others obtain their dance goals by explaining the clave. A snob would never offer advice on how become a good dancer. A snob would never offer knowledge about music, the salsa culture, etc. A snob would never invite you to their home when you're at the next salsa congress when they haven't seen how you dance. A snob would never offer encouragement when you've had a bad night of salsa dancing. What's a snob take on this? "Do it yourself, I'm already there". I understand and hear what you're saying Brujo but there is a bad side to this. If you're mistreating someone for the sake of making yourself look good, it's not okay. Sure, you can have your friends. Sure, you can dance with whomever you want, when you want. Sure, it's your perogative not to dance or mingle with certain groups. Sure, you've worked hard to get at your advanced level. Sure, it may be best to keep your dances with beginners to a minimum in order to maintain your level. But, don't "impose" ill feeling towards someone else. That may be the dancer's choice as well, but that doesn't make it okay.

I think we are talking about the obvious snobs. The ones that tell you, I Am the Greatest in the Universe.

[danceguy]

Hmm, I've found "snobs" to be of any level of dancing. They could be a group of drunks just hanging out who can't dance at all, or a "top dawg" who thinks thy are G-d's gift to Salsa. :?

But there is some truth to being intimidated by a really good dancer that precludes us to judge them unfairly. As I'm getting better and observing the more advanced dancers...I'm finding that while my skill level is increasing, theirs hasn't changed much. The people I used to think were really good aren't looking as great as they used to be.

Now, I didn't think all of them were snobs...only the ones that were not very friendly and super cliquish. Its really about the energy that they give off...some of them are down to earth good hearted people, the type that you'd invite over your house for a Sunday BBQ. :P

The others, well let's just say I'd be more inclined to run them over with my car! ;) :car:

SG

[peachexploration]

...only the ones that were not very friendly and super cliquish. Its really about the energy that they give off...some of them are down to earth good hearted people, the type that you'd invite over your house for a Sunday BBQ. :P

The others, well let's just say I'd be more inclined to run them over with my car! ;) :car:

SG

LOL, Right SG. A snob will definitely let you know they're in the room.
But there is some truth to being intimidated by a really good dancer that precludes us to judge them unfairly....
SGYes, I think this is what Brujo was saying and that's when our own perception becomes our problem. But for the most part, the awfulness of "arrogance" and "snobbishness" does exist in the Salsa world.

[borikensalsero]

Wepaaaaaa....

Brujo thank you for the kind words, as well as the use of my name to express a point. Peachexploration, thank you for seeing in my writing the humbleness I so much wish to implant in the salsa world. Thank you for the kind words.

While I see your point brujo there is a rather big difference between someone humbly dancing while doing advance moves (SKILL) and someone with the nose up in the air, an high chest, and eyes half opened looking around checking out who is watching them (ATTITUDE). Rolling their heads from left to right as if there is nothing the can not do. Those dancers stop at no end to rub the cold shoulder to their partner in attempts to look good themselves. That is a dance snob, not because he is good but because of his attitude! I equal it to those wealthy folks who walk around with their nose too high up in the air, acting as if the world is theirs, clearly looking down upon others. Not really saying that they have money, but that they are better than anyone else. While there are those wealthy people that the first thing you say about them is how humble a person they seem, despite being loaded.

I am in NY City, I see the inflated egos every night doing the same moves as others missing the inflated ego do. It is a pleasure to see an advance dancer do what he likes to do and do it not to reward his god all mighty status, and feed an Ego, but because they love. You can see it in their face that the difficulty of the move has not a thing to do with the gratification of allowing his partner to come along for a ride.

Attitude portrayed during a dance is what makes the difference between a snob and he who isn’t, not skill, but attitude. Vince put it rather eloquent when he spoke of seeing SD dance as opposed to others. He spoke of SD skills yet mentioned how SD chose to look humble while been just as good or better than other dancers there. However, other fellows chose to display a snotty attitude, the attitude that we, today, speak of.

For skill has nothing to do with how we chose to mask that skill. I am sorry that you think my skill level hides the person I am simply because I know more moves than others. For that I have obviously failed through my writings, for I haven’t demonstrated to you that my writings persona is the one I choose to display when I dance, as opposed to how many spins I can do. I have always attempted to mold my goal as the search for passion in a dance, to ultimately display that passion not only for me, but for my other half, and others who so presence what I call love in a dance, not how many hours I have spent practicing for others to glorify my skills. I would be no one if my concern were the blatant disregards for others; even those who merely watch me dance. For they too are my concern, for those very fellows may one day too chose to seek love as I have thus far sought it.

[Vin]

A good dancer, male or female, can make ANY beginner look good,

I think that your statement here is debatable[1], but accepting it at face value, one conclusion that could be drawn is that the `instructors' you refer to ain't that good. :lol:

Cheers
Sarah

[1] There are some leaders that can make any follower look hopeless. Thats why the null hypothesis is that its the leaders fault. Sorry guys ;)

I think it is more reasonable to say that a good dancer can make a beginner FEEL good about there dancing while dancing with them. Making someone else look good is a much more difficult and ultimately much less important task in my opinion.

[Danish Guy]

I think it is more reasonable to say that a good dancer can make a beginner FEEL good about there dancing while dancing with them. Making someone else look good is a much more difficult and ultimately much less important task in my opinion.

Well put Vin.

That’s what I'm trying every time.
Some times it even looks good 8)

[cocodrilo]

What I was implying by a "good dancer" was good both in skills and intentions. I am a teacher(although in culture, not dance!) and to me, a "good instructor" of ANYTHING most importantly includes being sincere, and a close second having the requisite skills and experience.

[Gregorio]

I know this is an old topic, but whenever you feel disillusioned with Salsa, rent Dance with Me and pay close attention to Chayanne's attitude!!!

[Sarah]

A good dancer, male or female, can make ANY beginner look good,

[1] There are some leaders that can make any follower look hopeless. Thats why the null hypothesis is that its the leaders fault. Sorry guys ;)

I think it is more reasonable to say that a good dancer can make a beginner FEEL good about there dancing while dancing with them. Making someone else look good is a much more difficult and ultimately much less important task in my opinion.

Couldn't agree more. Sometimes the objective is just to have enough fun to keep them ocoming back to the floor.

Cheers
Sarah

[Sabor]

Couldn't agree more. Sometimes the objective is just to have enough fun to keep them ocoming back to the floor.

unless its already too too crowded of course.. in that case its allright to project some snobishness and negative ''look @ me look @ me " attitude for the benefit of lesser injury prospects in an over-crowded floor .. so in this case one is sacrificing self image for the safety of the general :lol: .. aah a truly misunderstood martyr in the world of criticism LOL

seriously tho'.. just dance it the best u know how.. the way u know how.. worry less about what u dont have taste for and focuss more on what u like.. a positive attitude goes along way .. and its contagious.. it spreads.. unlike negativity and negative attitude.. it chokes itself out.. all in good time mes amis.. all in good time.. salsa can only keep getting stronger.. just look at its staggering growth over the past 5 years or so.. incredible 8) .. and it aint stopping for no body.. no matter how puffed up or snazzy the be..
ants to the giant is all they are ..
all they'll ever be..
so kindly.. go out tonight ..
salsa your heart out ..
set your soul and body free :wink:

[tchaguito]

I don't have time now to read the posts adequately, but skimming through them, I wonder if salsa isn't a quite elitistic activity. I think that in the case of small salsa scenes like my own, where it is easy for one to be noticed, there tends to be a smaller amount of more advanced dancers, who thus tend more to feel like Gods or divas, like a rare breed, unique, and in a way superior to the common mortals.
It is very rare for me to see a teacher inviting an absolute beginner or non-advanced dancers.
For me, this denotes a strong lack of values and humility. But again, do values and humility take us anywhere in the modern world?

Tiago

[youngsta]

elitist, nah, let's just say that salsa attracts many people that like to be seen and once they've put in all the work to become a good salsero they believe they SHOULD be seen. Egotistical, probably...elitist, I doubt it.

[BrookeErin]

I haven't noticed any elitism in our community. In fact, it's the friendliest environment I know.

[squirrel]

Good for you, BrookeErin... You are lucky!

There was this guy visiting my country... he said he's a Salsa champion of some sort... I won't mention the country he came from... still, he didn't impress me... I even invited him and still... didn't like dancing with him! His leading was quite bad and he was off beat on the more difficult moves!

He got these people around him, who looked up to him as if he were "G-d's gift to Salsa dancing on Earth"! He taught them aerials and complicated moves he couldn't do properly himself and they developed such an attitude! :) It made me laugh... When I danced with him, he tried to do a neck drop, and I refused! He was pissed off! :) I was laughing my a$$ off! I never do acrobatic stuff in the club, especially if you do it wrong! Well, he hasn't ever invited me again, but I noticed one night he was staring at my partner and I dancing... like really staring... and that made my nasty part really feel good, as I saw the interest in his eyes... I was ashamed after, but G-d it felt good! :)

I also met other salseros from abroad, visiting our country... and they were all nice... and didn't have an attitude... so I guess it's up to the dancer and their personality! Me, I don't care anymore! I won't change them and that's it! I try to influence only the newbies but... if they are under the bad influence of egotistic dancers... it is quite difficult!

[tj]

Personally, I find that when I concentrate on the negative things about salsa, all I feel like doing is taking a break from it all...

So instead, I screen out what I don't like, and instead focus in on what I do like about dancing.

Like this one weekend a few weeks ago, I wasn't having a particularly great night - not getting my dance fix in... and then I danced with this one gal that I know. We never quite have a very good "techinical" dance, but she's so enthusiastic and fun to dance with, that it just doesn't matter. We have connection in spite of a lack of all the finer points of dancing.

It's these little moments like that, that keep me coming back.

[salsamale]

... I’m not saying not to dance like you want to dance. All I am saying is that you can choose to be a good person while you dance. Don’t blame being unable to gratify yourself from a simple basic dance on the other person. It has to do with you, not others but YOU. The perspective you chose to live by has yet to progress to the next level, the next level isn’t about I but everyone, the good of I as long as it is beneficial for us. The enjoyment of giving to others all you can give, the pleasure that it is to see a beginners face when they dance with one of the best dancers in town, the pleasure that you might just have had a huge impact on this person’s life or even a little one. The simple pleasure that what you are giving someone something they couldn’t have done alone, or may be with others. The simple pleasure that they are giving you their time, therefore, you owe that person the gratitude of showing them that their time gifted to you will indeed be well received and admired. ...

... u know.. people can try to change salsa.. but they end up just barely adding to it .. meanwhile they discover that salsa has changed them soul out.. and in the process discarded those with no soul to deliver.. now aint salsa cooooool or what!?! 8)

... Finally, (what I tell my students, the few I have) dance 100% for your partner. Not 50%. If they do the same in return then the world will spin on a new axis, the sun will always shine, disease and hardship will disappear, and you will eternally be wealthy. Well, okay, you know what I mean. ...

I bookmarked this thread because it struck a nerve at one time, but what I am finding is the more I dance, the less other people's salsa egos bother me. Instead, I am aware of positive and non-positive energy of people as a whole. I say non-positive, because I really don't see much negative energy in our scene. Positive energy is nourishing to other people. Non-positive energy is neutral, neither nourishing nor draining.

The best dancers in our scene are the instructors and performers. I love to watch how they social dance, both for the fancy tricks they do, but also to see how they manage their space. Do they accept space or do they take it? Do they respect their neighbours on the dancefloor? Do they respect their partner? Is their energy positive or non-positive? Edie should make a graph plotting salsa ego vs. salsa addiction vs. time :).

[terremoto]

Funny, when other dancers come to my salsa scene I hear a lot about egos. So they must be present. However, its the only dance I know intimately so I have no comparison.

[quixotedlm]

As I'm starting to foray into the lindy hop scene, I'm finding that in my town, Salsa ego's are way bigger than lindy egos. Or at least, the manifestation/effect of such egos on the dance floor/scene is less impactful/apparent in lindy.

i rarely find dancers (or people in general out in the world) with -ve energy. The +ve/neutral/-ve nature of energies is all about who they are interacting with at any given moment of time. Some dancers have a -ve energy towards me, but they are +ve towards others. Many of them are smart enough to not dance with me (or in other cases, I don't ask), so it solves the problem by never allowing any unahppiness during the dance. No dance with -ve energy means no unhappiness ;)

[noobster]

I find that the best way to deal with other people's nasty vibes is to remain blissfully oblivious. ;)

Was it Eleanor Roosevelt who said that "nobody can make you feel inferior without your consent"?

[salsamale]

From a guy's perspective, what I see is that guys come to a club or social for different reasons:
- to promote themselves as instructors
- to pick-up
- to find a girlfriend or a wife
- to practise their moves
- to have a good time with their friends
- to have a good time with new people
- to really dance
And there is a lot of overlap!

Now take 1 guy who is there to pick-up, and add 1 salsera who is there to have a good time with her friends :). Or take 1 guy who is there to practise his moves, and add 1 salsera who is there to really dance :). After enough of this, we each develop a shield, a defense-barrier, for self-preservation.

I recall one advanced salsera, a real goddess, who when I just started, granted me a couple dances, first a salsa, then a merengue. She must have thought, "ok, he messed-up that salsa last week, but this is just a merengue, he can't possibly mess THIS up!". Heh, heh :). Well, the third time I asked her, lo and behold, she smiled and said "no". I deserved it! Too bad for other beginner salseros who ask her, she is now more likely to give them a cool "no".

But the more I dance, the more I am able to match my dance to my partner's dance. There is a time and place and partner with whom I may safely practice the latest move I learned. I'm also aware that this place I use for practice may be another salsera's place to "really dance", and so if I ask a salsera to dance, I try to be there for her for the reason she is there.

I also try to give instructors their space to shine, because this is their time to promote. Some guys who are there to pick-up are fun to talk to. Others might give me a nod, but otherwise have no time for me. I respect that, because they're out on the hunt. These hunters have been hunting for some time, and in that time, they have also become skilled salseros. Egos? Yeah, they exist :).

[tangotime]

S/ Male--- I would have to disagree slightly on your comment " the best dancers are Teachers and Performers " .

On the contrary, there are probably thousands out there , somewhere in the vast "salsa world ", that A--- have no interest in performing and B--- no interest in teaching.

Have seen many in clubs for yrs , that would fit both those categories .( I personally know many )

The same is true in most dance genres .

[terremoto]

Salsamale - I definately feel like a lot of ladies put up a shield - basically from being picked up on by one too many agressive men.

[Sagitta]

I brought someone to our Tuesday latin night this past week and they found it very friendly. People actually may find me standoffish or elitist at times, but it is more because I don't want to give people a bad dance.

[salsera_alemana]

could at least part of it be due to the fact that salsa is culturally latin-centric vs. ballroom doing euro-centric if not anglo-centric, and that plays an influence, at least where it comes to dance etiquette? i guess that i'm also suggesting that the culture associated with salsa might attract the types of personalities/behaviors observed. certainly you're not going to expect a lot of flamboyant exhibitionist types flocking to waltz or foxtrot!

I am reading this thread with interest although I should do other things now and would like to write a longer response sometime later because this is a question I have been asking myself for years: Why has the salsa scene changed so much in a negative way?

Here my response to the above quote:
No, IMHO it has nothing to do with the Latin culture, or has it in a different way as you might think? Actually, my experience is that there is a lot more consideration and "normality" on the dance floor and in the scene where there are predominantly Latinos. The more "westernized" the Latino scene the more competitiveness and rudeness one has to deal with.

In Puerto Rico I cannot see the problem of people dancing into others' dance space, you see good dancing but not all that fierce competition. There are rules (dance netiquette) to be adhered to and you better don't step on people's feet more than once (and sincerely apologize for that one time). I am talking about normal dance events, not Congreso events!

However, here in the US and in Europe, you get stepped on, you get kicked, you have to deal with all the egos out there, you encounter bragging, showing off, rudeness, fierce competition, envie, you name it. There is no "togetherness" anymore as there used to be when I found the salsa scene. Then we were all family, happy to see each other every weekend and enjoy and dance together. That has totally changed!

[terremoto]

However, here in the US and in Europe, you get stepped on, you get kicked, you have to deal with all the egos out there, you encounter bragging, showing off, rudeness, fierce competition, envie, you name it. There is no "togetherness" anymore as there used to be when I found the salsa scene. Then we were all family, happy to see each other every weekend and enjoy and dance together. That has totally changed!


Hmmm, interesting. The current scene is the only scene I know. I only know competition and showing off. And beginners see this and try and emulate the same thing - and the cycle continues.

[Catarina]

I agree with you, Terremoto! I'm glad that I've been on this bulletin board because the comments over the months about etiquette, what dancing is really about, what learning and improving is about and for, and the atmosphere on this board is so much more fun and encouraging than out on the dance floor....and I try to take that with me when I go out with friends, when I'm dancing with those newer to dancing than me, and with those ways more experienced than me. So, in that way, the phenomenon of beginners picking up on the culture of their comepetitive dance scene is buffered by all you delightful people out there in your own dance scene with your dance friends and the people you dance with :D
There definitely are egos, but I feel like so many people are really dancing for fun and wanting to get better, not to impress others, but because it's a fun challenge against oneself!

[salsamale]

It's funny, I used to post on a relationships forum where every other thread was about the 'nice guy' vs. the 'jerk'. Here, every other thread is about on1 vs. on2 (all the on1 people are non-jerks, by the way :)).

Salsa seems to be a scene where being a jerk, just doesn't cut it. Now, being a skilled salsero and a jerk, I've heard, can get you many requests for private lessons (or so I hope :)).

Oh, and I would have to respectfully disagree with tangotime ... In the heart of every salsero, is a private instructor wannabe, who wants to know how the heck did nycsalsero's private lesson go :).

[tj]

I'd say at least part of the problem is that salsa is a victim of it's own success. There's enough $$ to be made teaching, selling videos, etc, that some instructors have gotten particularly competitive, including bad mouthing other instructors and other styles. And it trickles down to their students, who repeat their teachers' philosophies and approach to the social scene at large.

And let's face it, a lot of the instructors in salsa don't have formal training, so their bad habits & bad techniques get passed along with the poor attitudes towards social dancing. I know one gal who complained to me years later about how she took lessons from this one guy, who taught his own version of salsa. She told me about how it took years to unlearn what he had taught.

Add in that the majority of us are lacking in some aspect of salsa, and this adds to the general insecurity/childishness/high school attitudes that can be prevalent.

This is the disadvantage of the "streetness" of salsa. You're not going to get along with everyone, so better to just focus on the folks you do get along with. But I do encourage you to do some small thing to encourage friendliness in the scene. Every little bit helps, and we're all mutually responsible for the attitudes in the scene. And just because you'll never change person X or Y, doesn't mean that you can't make a difference.

[noobster]

Oh, and I would have to respectfully disagree with tangotime ... In the heart of every salsero, is a private instructor wannabe, who wants to know how the heck did nycsalsero's private lesson go :).
I dunno, I can't speak for your scene but from what I've seen, the instructors are not always the best dancers. They are among the better dancers, sure; but you can't tell who is an instructor and who isn't just by watching them dance. My favorite dancers to watch are mostly not instructors.

And I totally agree with tangotime that there are many dancers out there who are doing it just for fun and who have zero interest in teaching, performing, or competing. From what I've seen, the only requirement for someone to teach, compete, or perform is that that person *want* to teach, compete, or perform. There's not much of a roadblock in terms of dancing ability, as there's no objective certification for teaching and there are dancers of all levels in performance groups.

(I have noticed that some people would like to *pretend* that teaching/performing is a stand-in for ability, as some of them seem to expect you to be impressed when they inform you that they are a teacher/performer. Or they think it is a compliment to say you should join a performance group, or to ask if you want to join their performance group. Whatever.)

[SnowDancer]

I find that the best way to deal with other people's nasty vibes is to remain blissfully oblivious. ;)


That's a very good philosophy, and one I try to follow.

And with a few exceptions, I find salsa dancers to be a fairly nice, friendly group of people.

[tangotime]

Noob.-- one slight correction-- there are several Prof. bodies that can and will give exams. , for aspiring teachers . They do, however , require knowledge on a much broader range, than just one dance .

[thespina13]

I see a few showoffs, but they're not great dancers. For the most part, noobies are swept up with great relish and we have a lot of people who become addicted. I've been known as "the one who'll dance with anyone", and I rather like that title. Now, if you show absolutely no improvement after like 6 months, I may claim I'm tired for a dance or two, but generally I don't hate dancing with beginners..a s long as you're there to DANCE, and not ogle or cop a feel.

Yeah, it's pretty laid back here. Then again, there isn't a whole slew of professionals or people who fancy themselves at that level who compete with one another. And if people are cliquey, I stay away from them anyhow. I have better things to do with my time.

[Big10]

There definitely are egos, but I feel like so many people are really dancing for fun and wanting to get better, not to impress others, but because it's a fun challenge against oneself!
I agree -- Salsa music and dancing have been around for so many years because, in general, most people think of Salsa dancing as a fun recreational activity.

It's just a matter of what you're looking for -- if you want to see egos, yes, there are plenty of egos in the scene. But, if you want to see people who are in it for fun, they're out there, too, in even greater numbers, I believe. The general perception may be skewed because the dancers with the egos tend to be the most conspicuous -- using the flashiest moves, wearing the flashiest clothes, going to the most popular clubs, picking the spots on the dance floor with the highest visibility, etc. However, as a practical matter, there simply aren't enough of those people to keep Salsa alive. At its core, Salsa needs people who think of it as fun, and who visit the clubs for socializing, or attend concerts by various musicians, or buy the music to play at their house parties, wedding receptions, etc.

[Don Silver]

I dunno, I can't speak for your scene but from what I've seen, the instructors are not always the best dancers. They are among the better dancers, sure; but you can't tell who is an instructor and who isn't just by watching them dance. My favorite dancers to watch are mostly not instructors.

You have it right... Dancing and teaching are two different skills.

Being a great instructor doesn't always mean you are a great dancer and vise-versa. In just as many cases, the best dancers are NOT the best teachers. Many great dancers do teach, mostly because people ask them to "show me how you do that" and are willing to pay for the information.

Many excellent dancers learn things organically and they may be able to show someone what they are doing, but breaking it down or having an exercise to build up to a move isn’t always something they have mastered.

Look at other athletic activities. Olympic coaches can rarely perform at the level of the athletes they are coaching. There are hundreds of examples in professional sports where an athlete can do but can’t coach/teach as well.

Great teachers can be great dancers, and great dancers can be great teachers, but a common mistake is assuming if I’m a great teacher I’ll be a great dancer (and vise-versa). A few people are both, but most are stronger at one or the other.

[squirrel]

I dunno, I can't speak for your scene but from what I've seen, the instructors are not always the best dancers. They are among the better dancers, sure; but you can't tell who is an instructor and who isn't just by watching them dance. My favorite dancers to watch are mostly not instructors.

And I totally agree with tangotime that there are many dancers out there who are doing it just for fun and who have zero interest in teaching, performing, or competing. From what I've seen, the only requirement for someone to teach, compete, or perform is that that person *want* to teach, compete, or perform. There's not much of a roadblock in terms of dancing ability, as there's no objective certification for teaching and there are dancers of all levels in performance groups.

(I have noticed that some people would like to *pretend* that teaching/performing is a stand-in for ability, as some of them seem to expect you to be impressed when they inform you that they are a teacher/performer. Or they think it is a compliment to say you should join a performance group, or to ask if you want to join their performance group. Whatever.)

I'd have to disagree... just a bit!

Sometimes all one wants is having fun... one never thinks one will end up teaching or performing!

And this is my case. I started out as a (hopeless) two-left-feet dancer... now I teach and perform at international congresses! It has never occurred to me I could, while I was struggling to keep the basic! I didn't want it at the time. But that was 6 years ago... long time huh? Last year I've started performing, after so many years of saying "Salsa is not for performances, it is for fun!". Now I feel the same about Salsa, yet perform. :)

[tangotime]

Just thought of a prime e.g.-- Tom Landry, Dallas Cowboys very successful coach, NEVER played as a pro !!

Exception that proves a rule, but am in complete agreement that many very good teachers, are just good dancers .

There are several well known world class dancers in the Ballroom genre, that are less than average at plying their trade .

As to the Q whats wrong with Salsa ?--- Nothing-- its the people in it !!!

[Big10]

Just thought of a prime e.g.-- Tom Landry, Dallas Cowboys very successful coach, NEVER played as a pro !!

Exception that proves a rule, but am in complete agreement that many very good teachers, are just good dancers .
As a longtime fan of the Dallas Cowboys, I have to make a factual correction by noting that Tom Landry did play professional football for a few years (for the New York Giants).

However, of course, I think the point is still the same, since although Tom Landry was an adequate player, he never would have made the Hall of Fame based on his playing career -- it was his ability to coach and teach (i.e., bring out the talent in others) that made him a legend.

[tangotime]

I sit corrected !-- why I had that impression :confused: dont know-- maybe there is another coach with that stat ? ( was a big c.boys fan in the sixties )

[tj]

I sit corrected !-- why I had that impression :confused: dont know-- maybe there is another coach with that stat ? ( was a big c.boys fan in the sixties )

I think Jimmy Johnson never made it to the pros as a player?

[LovingIt28]

This just about sums it up, Boriken! :notworth:

Looking at the big picture, this is indeed how it has to be.....

....but sometimes I lie awake at night, wondering if I had been guilty doing things that I've been advocating against.........

A few years ago I used to only dance with people familiar (ie. 'old school') to me. Reasons.....?
1. I was a lot less secured & got intimidated by the different styles.
2. I was less skilled as a follower.
3. I was afraid to give beginners a chance because I believed as a follower, I had NOTHING to offer.
4. I didn't want to seem like a 'show-off', as I was conditioned by my ex/mentor & heavily influenced by HIS views (instead of my own :roll: ).
5. I didn't think my action would make ANY difference to anyone.

Two main factors changed me forever:
1. Discovery of Edie Salsafreak's writing
2. My familiar group started to disappeared from the scene, as 'evolution' started to take effect. All of a sudden there were NO ONE to dance with !

Then I realised that if I always do what I've always done, I would always get what I've always got :shock: .

No one benefit from this. Least of all, myself. So I started to change.

There is still a long way to go, but I am doing my little bits. Sure, we are ALL looking to get that fix when we hit the clubs, but surely there is room in all of us for nuturing.......

AND we can all make a difference....small miracles can & do happen :wink: !


I LOVE YOUR POSTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



P.S where is a smiley for love when you need it!

[timbafreak]

You have it right... Dancing and teaching are two different skills.

Being a great instructor doesn't always mean you are a great dancer and vise-versa. In just as many cases, the best dancers are NOT the best teachers. Many great dancers do teach, mostly because people ask them to "show me how you do that" and are willing to pay for the information.

Many excellent dancers learn things organically and they may be able to show someone what they are doing, but breaking it down or having an exercise to build up to a move isn’t always something they have mastered.

Look at other athletic activities. Olympic coaches can rarely perform at the level of the athletes they are coaching. There are hundreds of examples in professional sports where an athlete can do but can’t coach/teach as well.

Great teachers can be great dancers, and great dancers can be great teachers, but a common mistake is assuming if I’m a great teacher I’ll be a great dancer (and vise-versa). A few people are both, but most are stronger at one or the other.


I agree! I'm not going to name names, but I know 2 dancers that are FANTASTIC dancers, but aren't very good teachers, I think it's because it come naturally to them, so they never had to learn. Then there is a teacher who isn't the greatest dancer I've seen, but can breal down movements like no other!

[dancin/dj]

haaaaa i love this stuff sometimes the older i get,(sometimes i laugh at the arrogant dancers attitude, you see i've seen some of what people call great dancers local and world renown and i dont (really ) think there all that, for one i can personally do and have done some of the really cool lifts and dips, can change timing and be on time with the music like there aint no tommorow(i"ve been a musican for 35 years) anyway i know some of you hate by now, lol, anyway, i think that a lot of the dancers & actors from the 20"s to the 60's here in america were much better dancer"s in a broad sense of the word and a lot of the arrogant ones of today are not all that and a bag of chips, and besides in my opinion if you dont have the warmth with the great moves your blowing you no a what out your... have your time in the sun fools for someday(life span 5 to 8 years) nobody will give to flying willys about you arrogant ... they will never forget you till somebody new comes around(new kid in town the eagles)

[tangotime]

I would agree , to some extent , about the " attitudes " some portray ( not all ), and yes , as far as dancers from the past ( I happen to be one ), there were some amazing " naturals ", who would grace any floor at any period of time .

Heres where we part company-- on 2 levels ,--- there are some very very talented dancers/ performers " out " there. This not to say I agree with what is very often displayed as " salsa" , because it , in my mind, would fall into the category of gymnastics !!
And , just because you are a musician, that does not give you a free pass into the complex world of dance.

I have taught ( many yrs ago ) 2 world class musicians ( one, a drummer and the other , 1st chair in a symph. orch. ) Neither one could keep on the prescribed beat for more than 4 bars !!

[Don Silver]

<snip>

I have taught ( many yrs ago ) 2 world class musicians ( one, a drummer and the other , 1st chair in a symph. orch. ) Neither one could keep on the prescribed beat for more than 4 bars !!

As you know, most musicians don't dance. Dancing and music are complimentary skills, but mastering body movement is different from mastering an instrument. Showing emotion with one provides an understanding but not the skills needed to work the other.

If you are a world class dancer, listen to thousands of tunes, understand the music, the structure, the counting, that gives you some great insights.

But if you sit at a drum set or a piano, you still have a few years of skill development before you can express what you hear in your head.

Musicians have the same issue when they dance. They understand the music but using their complete body to express emotion is a different skill than using your hands to tickle the keyboard or lay down a great groove on the drums.

Long term a musician will bring some things to the table and they can become great dancers, but being a musician doesn't usually become an advantage until AFTER they master some basic dance skills.

[sweavo]

But if you sit at a drum set or a piano, you still have a few years of skill development before you can express what you hear in your head.


Thanks for that post, it's begun a new chapter for me in thinking about this stuff!

[dancin/dj]

I would agree , to some extent , about the " attitudes " some portray ( not all ), and yes , as far as dancers from the past ( I happen to be one ), there were some amazing " naturals ", who would grace any floor at any period of time .

Heres where we part company-- on 2 levels ,--- there are some very very talented dancers/ performers " out " there. This not to say I agree with what is very often displayed as " salsa" , because it , in my mind, would fall into the category of gymnastics !!
And , just because you are a musician, that does not give you a free pass into the complex world of dance.

I have taught ( many yrs ago ) 2 world class musicians ( one, a drummer and the other , 1st chair in a symph. orch. ) Neither one could keep on the prescribed beat for more than 4 bars !! you talking to me? ha ha, ummmmm a free pass? i've been dancing since i was 16 im 50 look 37 ask starry, and i started taking dance lessons 10 years ago, i teach dance(salsa , west coast, hustle and some ballroom) i dj also, however (i thank God for my talents) you only taught 2 musicans, and one is in a symph orch which translates, into, by the book only, please dont try to school me(i only gave my opinion) i know dancers who are musicans that (are good dancers) some yes some no, some musicans think too linear, depends on how open they are, shoot i tryed teach my former vocal teacher how to sing pop(fat chance) she never got it at all, but damm she can sing opera with such control and power, complex world of dance? for who? i agree there are some talented dancers today of course, in all types of dance, but heres all im really saying in context of what was first posted(were i come from and those who were famous(stars in dancing, singing, acting, in short multitalented)) why all the fuss with these arrogant dancers, usually there one trick pony"s in salsa or whatever dance, thats why im not that impressed, in the 40"s to the 70"s you had to be multitalented to get a free pass.

[tangotime]

So you are actually agreeing with me, or i am agreeing with you ( 1 trick ponies ).

All teachers ,who are qualified in several divisions, have essentially the same " take " .
As far as " schooling you ", that was not infered-- it was to make a point, that because one can play a piano, drums teach music, it does not automatically follow that the application of rhythm to movement, comes easy .

I only quoted you 2 cases,( I have had numerous instances over the yrs,) those 2 just happened to be high profile .

[dancin/dj]

So you are actually agreeing with me, or i am agreeing with you ( 1 trick ponies ).

All teachers ,who are qualified in several divisions, have essentially the same " take " .
As far as " schooling you ", that was not infered-- it was to make a point, that because one can play a piano, drums teach music, it does not automatically follow that the application of rhythm to movement, comes easy .

I only quoted you 2 cases,( I have had numerous instances over the yrs,) those 2 just happened to be high profile . il volpe e furbo(the fox is cunning in italian) hmm we can call it a draw,fair enough your point about those who play instruments, i agree. actually for me ballroom was harder to do in the beginning not because of the timing, but to put the moves together with the timing takes time and practice to feel comfortable and look good,in short i react to these kinds of threads because i"ve see the arrogance in musicans, dancers, and dj, pro and non pro alike, and being someone who does all three(pro) it"s just so funny and ticks me off all in one, because its the same crap in all three groups, worse for the dancer funny worse because time is against a pro dancer, whereas a musican or dj can be overweight not pretty, etc etc but if you dj good music people dont care what u look like and if a musican is very talented the same applys to them(well its hard for me to look at some guys in there 60"s 70"s acting like there in 20"s as far as stage anticts or clothes etc...

[RumbaRumbera]

I live in L.A. and have been dancing salsa for over 10 years. The L.A. salsa scene is getting worse and worse each year. It is dominated by a bunch of rude, inconsiderate, and trashy people who believe their mediocre dancing is top notch. The scene is dominated by men of all ages stuck in adolescence who for the most will prefer an Asian or other girl under 30 with mostly limited dancing skills and dressed like a hooker. These girls chase these guys down for a dance which feeds these male egos already over-inflated by the erroneous belief that they are God's gift to salsa (and trashy girls). Even some of these men are self-appointed "instructors" who have developed their own cliquish following consisting of the aforementioned riff-raff. So if you dance for the love of the music and for the love of the dance, or if you are a mature and self-confident man who is secure in your own ego, or if you are an over-30 self-confident and secure female who refuses to dress like a hooker, or refuses to chase men down for a dance, you're wasting your time and your money trying to meet and dance with decent salseros/as in L.A.!

[Indiana_Jay]

Some of these messages make me glad I'm part of a ballroom scene, rather than a salsa one!

[Sagitta]

well i-j I have a wonderful dance scene down here...if I consider ho wfriendly people are. I'm talking salsa.


ok. I got to go mow the lawn.

[quixotedlm]

I live in L.A. and have been dancing salsa for over 10 years. The L.A. salsa scene is getting worse and worse each year. It is dominated by a bunch of rude, inconsiderate, and trashy people who believe their mediocre dancing is top notch. The scene is dominated by men of all ages stuck in adolescence who for the most will prefer an Asian or other girl under 30 with mostly limited dancing skills and dressed like a hooker. These girls chase these guys down for a dance which feeds these male egos already over-inflated by the erroneous belief that they are God's gift to salsa (and trashy girls). Even some of these men are self-appointed "instructors" who have developed their own cliquish following consisting of the aforementioned riff-raff. So if you dance for the love of the music and for the love of the dance, or if you are a mature and self-confident man who is secure in your own ego, or if you are an over-30 self-confident and secure female who refuses to dress like a hooker, or refuses to chase men down for a dance, you're wasting your time and your money trying to meet and dance with decent salseros/as in L.A.!


Sigh!

Err... .Welcome to DF!

[tangotime]

Rum/Rumb-- Now tell us how you really feel !!:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[BrownSkin818]

funny, im not a part of any of the offending groups the rumbera mentions, yet i manage to have a jolly good time dancing here in LA. *shrugs* different strokes i guess. i find it interesting that this same post has been copied and pasted in more than one forum. :???: at any rate, "welcome"... and happy dancing.

[jenibelle]

It's unfortunate to hear some of your responses...I'm glad I don't live in L.A. if that's how it is to dance there. I went to the LA congress but I am sure that's not representative of the LA scene so I can't really comment.

On the other hand, the Boston salsa scene rocks! And from the bazillion trips I take to New York their scene rocks too. People are kind, friendly and have a lot of fun...and some of my closest friends are salseros. Wahoooo!

Jeni

[sweavo]

I live in L.A. and have been dancing salsa for over 10 years. The L.A. salsa scene is getting worse and worse each year. It is dominated by a bunch of rude, inconsiderate, and trashy people...

... if you are a mature and self-confident man who is secure in your own ego, or if you are an over-30 self-confident and secure female who refuses to dress like a hooker ... wasting your time ... in L.A.!


Are you sure that's L.A. salsa and not just L.A.? :-)

Welcome to DF!

[Don Silver]

I've been out in LA the last few nights and 90% of the women were NOT dressed ultra-sexy/revealing. There was the normal mix of 80% looking stylish but not over the top and the other 20% was dressed down or dressed up. I only saw a few women in very short skirts, most were what you'd see for Friday movie or dinner dates.

Overall LA is like any city, there are lots of clubs and we can dance almost every night of the week if we wish. I saw a LOT of women that wouldn't fit the "very sexy" mode and they were having a great time, with both younger and older men. Some of it is building relationships, some of it is attitude.

There is no question that thinner women will get more attention than heavier women, no matter what the age. (That said, LOTS of men prefer larger women.) For most guys, they aren't planning on a date, so they will dance with anybody, but they still have their preferences.

The old adage that "Men are attracted to beauty and women are attracted to power" is clearly an over statement. But it has a kernel of truth that is reflected in the salsa clubs, health clubs, office parties and other social scenes.

Henry Kissinger (Former Secretary of State) once said "power is the ultimate aphrodisiac" and he was named "Sexiest Man Alive" by People Magazine. That guy looks like an old baseball mit. But a wide set of younger women love him (Everybody is younger than him, he's got to be upper 80's or more.)

At one club this week there was a 20-something, dressed in ultra short skirt, cropped top, looking very sexy, and she got lots of attention from the guys. I'm over 45 and since I had just read this thread I watched to see how it worked for her.

90% of her dances were with men within 10 years of her age, and us older men weren't exactly on her agenda (which is fine). She also happens to be a decent dancer, so I wouldn't turn her down if she asked, but I don't go out of my way to dance with her.

LA clubs are actually a strong mix of dancers, and overall I doubt it's much different than other cities. Some clubs are better, some worse... They are social scenes and as such the normal mix of people and attitudes apply.

[salsachinita]

I LOVE YOUR POSTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:oops: :oops: :oops: :notworth:

Thankyou for reading & quoting something I had written all these times ago...!! This means more to me than you realised. Thanks again.

[blink]

I live in L.A. and have been dancing salsa for over 10 years. The L.A. salsa scene is getting worse and worse each year. It is dominated by a bunch of rude, inconsiderate, and trashy people who believe their mediocre dancing is top notch. The scene is dominated by men of all ages stuck in adolescence who for the most will prefer an Asian or other girl under 30 with mostly limited dancing skills and dressed like a hooker. These girls chase these guys down for a dance which feeds these male egos already over-inflated by the erroneous belief that they are God's gift to salsa (and trashy girls). Even some of these men are self-appointed "instructors" who have developed their own cliquish following consisting of the aforementioned riff-raff. So if you dance for the love of the music and for the love of the dance, or if you are a mature and self-confident man who is secure in your own ego, or if you are an over-30 self-confident and secure female who refuses to dress like a hooker, or refuses to chase men down for a dance, you're wasting your time and your money trying to meet and dance with decent salseros/as in L.A.!

Well, in many ways I agree. I don't think being Asian or dressing slutty has anything to do with it-the girls are just young and cute. But if you don't fall in that age range and image then it can be harsh. This is a problem-in LA anyways.

Many female newcomers quit going out to clubs because of this attitude. And I am amazed by the men and their egos. It is surreal. Women really are so surprised by how much they are ignored when they go out if they don't fit that certain image.

I have just come to a point where if I am being ignored then screw it I am going to ask. But that isn't always easy if you are feeling rejected or not very good about yourself. Especially if you are a new dancer.

Not everyone is like this in the Salsa scene but there is alot of it going around.

Just my two cents.

[RumbaRumbera]

funny, im not a part of any of the offending groups the rumbera mentions, yet i manage to have a jolly good time dancing here in LA. *shrugs* different strokes i guess. i find it interesting that this same post has been copied and pasted in more than one forum. :???: at any rate, "welcome"... and happy dancing.

Thanks for your comments and enjoy it while it lasts, i.e. while you are still young and cute.

[RumbaRumbera]

Well, in many ways I agree. I don't think being Asian or dressing slutty has anything to do with it-the girls are just young and cute. But if you don't fall in that age range and image then it can be harsh. This is a problem-in LA anyways.

Many female newcomers quit going out to clubs because of this attitude. And I am amazed by the men and their egos. It is surreal. Women really are so surprised by how much they are ignored when they go out if they don't fit that certain image.

I have just come to a point where if I am being ignored then screw it I am going to ask. But that isn't always easy if you are feeling rejected or not very good about yourself. Especially if you are a new dancer.

Not everyone is like this in the Salsa scene but there is alot of it going around.

Just my two cents.

Interesting how those who are young/cute or are into young/cute go to great lengths to defend their "scene." Thanks for having the courage to acknowledge the truth.

BTW if I'm being ignored I don't think the solution is to ask those same people to dance.

[BrownSkin818]

Thanks for your comments and enjoy it while it lasts, i.e. while you are still young and cute.
im not the "under 30er" that youve spoken of. and im NOT of the top echelon of "cuties" in the club. sorry that our impressions of the scene are so different. :(

btw, in ref to your response to blink.... i totally agree with her. when i was a beginner, i made it a point to ask those who ignored me (i.e. many advanced dancers) because i wanted to get to where they were. i may have had two left feet, but i didnt let that discourage me from asking away, and ensuring that i got to appreciate this dance and enjoy this scene.

[borikensalsero]

I live in L.A. and have been dancing salsa for over 10 years. The L.A. salsa scene is getting worse and worse each year. It is dominated by a bunch of rude, inconsiderate, and trashy people who believe their mediocre dancing is top notch. The scene is dominated by men of all ages stuck in adolescence who for the most will prefer an Asian or other girl under 30 with mostly limited dancing skills and dressed like a hooker. These girls chase these guys down for a dance which feeds these male egos already over-inflated by the erroneous belief that they are God's gift to salsa (and trashy girls). Even some of these men are self-appointed "instructors" who have developed their own cliquish following consisting of the aforementioned riff-raff. So if you dance for the love of the music and for the love of the dance, or if you are a mature and self-confident man who is secure in your own ego, or if you are an over-30 self-confident and secure female who refuses to dress like a hooker, or refuses to chase men down for a dance, you're wasting your time and your money trying to meet and dance with decent salseros/as in L.A.!

Could these type of behavior be reduced by a governing body over-seeing instructors?

Eliminate self made instructors who can't really teach or dance
Grant students the ability to identify "frauds"

Aaaah, who am I kidding... I think salsa is fine, the people are the ones who need adjustment...

[thespina13]

New blood helps to. Friday night was a blast for me because I danced with someone new who's really into the scene here. He's from Montreal (and BOY does it ever show), and honestly had the best night dancing I've had in a long time. I think when you get the same people allllll the time, atmosphere can go sour. Which is why it's so great to travel to other cities. You get to BE the new blood, and you get to dance with new blood.

Yes borkien, salsa is more than fine. Salsa is fabulous. It attracts some passionate, dramatic, sometimes ego-driven and insecure fellows though, which, when you put them all in a room together, can cause interesting dynamics, to say the least.

And I think your comment about governing bodies is good, but controversial... we've all discussed how on earth one would be qualified to become such an instructor or create such a body. You'd haveto get into formalized curriculum, method and evaluation, and this forum has heatedly argued for angd against something like that. Also, there's no guarantee such an overssing body would be any less cliquey and exclusive than what goes on right now. As a matter of fact, it could get worse. There would be an administration-approved elite. I think it's just up to us, who "get it" to break the mold, be as friendly and universal as possible, warmly accept the noobs, never be loathe to give a brief lesson or two to someone who's never danced a step before, and smile as much as humanly possible. We're dancing to celebrate LIFE! not to prove how fantastic we are or exclude others. It's fine to celebrate one's own fantasticness within onesself (indeed this makes the best dancing), but if one is intent on wearing one's fabulous skill on the sleeve and making it some kind of exclusive badge, it's just going to create the kind of divisive, snobbish attitude we can run up against frequently.

[tj]

Overly simple I know but.......

To those of us "comfortable" in our scene: Do you dislike the salsa snobs in your scene? Then don't be one yourself, and dance with as many possible different people.

[RumbaRumbera]

Overly simple I know but.......

To those of us "comfortable" in our scene: Do you dislike the salsa snobs in your scene? Then don't be one yourself, and dance with as many possible different people.

Not overly simple at all. Any suggestions on how to win over the ego-driven, sex-driven, young and cute-fixated crowd to this perspective? As others have suggested, asking men to dance who don't want to dance with us is not the solution. (What is up with that?)

[RumbaRumbera]

Overly simple I know but.......

To those of us "comfortable" in our scene: Do you dislike the salsa snobs in your scene? Then don't be one yourself, and dance with as many possible different people.

Not overly simple at all. Any suggestions on winning over the sex and ego driven, young and cute fixated crowd to this perspective?

As others have suggested, asking these men to dance who are not interested in doing so is not the solution. (Sounds like a lack of self-respect issue to me.)

[quixotedlm]

Overly simple I know but.......

To those of us "comfortable" in our scene: Do you dislike the salsa snobs in your scene? Then don't be one yourself, and dance with as many possible different people.

I'm noticing a slight change in attitudes in my local scene. As more of us who were novices 2 years ago are startign to get better and continuing to dance with everybody happily, others are starting to follow the example. I've certainly seen some dancers who did not dance with with everybody start to expand their horizons and dance with more folks (but still, they like to dance with those who have a certain minimum skill level - it's a improvement still).

I still don't like the snobs too much.But I've learned from personal changes that it is much easier to be good from the beginning than to find goodness after being bad. So whenever I find someone doing the latter, I look at them with a high amount of respect - so the erstwhile snobs who have changed are ones I hold in high esteem.

[tj]

Not overly simple at all. Any suggestions on how to win over the ego-driven, sex-driven, young and cute-fixated crowd to this perspective? As others have suggested, asking men to dance who don't want to dance with us is not the solution. (What is up with that?)

I don't know if it can be done. It's like asking if you can change someone who doesn't want to change. Certainly as Boriken suggests, if we have teachers stressing the importance of this (as well as not misbehaving themselves), it would help.

My own philosophy is to ignore the ones who don't accept me, and concentrate on those that do. Easier said than done, but eventually you surround yourself with people that you want to be around (and want to be around you) - rather than ones that you're trying to beg for attention from.

It's unfortunate that it's sorta like Jr High all over again, and that you're not going to be friends with everyone. But hey, it's still better than the traditional club/bar scene.

[sweavo]

Not overly simple at all. Any suggestions on how to win over the ego-driven, sex-driven, young and cute-fixated crowd to this perspective? As others have suggested, asking men to dance who don't want to dance with us is not the solution. (What is up with that?)

Did obi-wan ask how to get the Emperor to wear brown and be nice?

[squirrel]

Hmmm what is interesting is that I've found the behaviour of LA salseros in other places as well (say, a congress...).

And it happened to me! :)

The first 2 nights I dressed in fashion, but didn't show any skin. The third night I decided to wear a nice short skirt and a sexi top. Guess when I danced more? Or, should I say, when I got invited to dance more?! :)

Obviously, my skill level had not changed from Saturday to Sunday... but Sunday I danced so much more! Ans yes, this is annoying and unfair. But since when is life fair?

[tangotime]

What it really shows, is this, many attendees are fairly new to the " scene ", and can be intimidated by more experienced dancers .

Their perspectives will change with time ( in most cases ) Add to the mix, the very base instinct of the male" animal " . ;)

[blink]

im not the "under 30er" that youve spoken of. and im NOT of the top echelon of "cuties" in the club. sorry that our impressions of the scene are so different. :(

btw, in ref to your response to blink.... i totally agree with her. when i was a beginner, i made it a point to ask those who ignored me (i.e. many advanced dancers) because i wanted to get to where they were. i may have had two left feet, but i didnt let that discourage me from asking away, and ensuring that i got to appreciate this dance and enjoy this scene.

Well, I am not a beginner. I have danced with most of the top Salsa pros in LA, competed at different levels and performed at the LA Congress. I have been dancing for 20 years and have been doing Salsa for at least 7 years.

I think the truth is somewhere in between the scene "sucks" and "wow, everyone is sooooo nice." Attitude and ignorance is everywhere. Salsa is really no worse than lets say the WCS scene. For some reason people get attitudes based on very little real world evidence and support. I have to check myself sometimes when I get weird.

Who knows why it is that way but if you want to go out dancing you have to, I think, deal with it. It is real, but then deal with it.

Good discussion though. Thanks!

[blink]

BTW if I'm being ignored I don't think the solution is to ask those same people to dance.[/QUOTE]

I understand what you are saying and where you are coming from. I think it is important BUT.....

I think my perspective on "being ignored" is not always correct. LOTS of times it may be, but for goodness sakes, I know I am not a mind reader (unfortunately!!). My insecurities (which are infinite, btw) cloud the way I interpret situations and I can judge people the wrong way.

So I say "screw it" and ask. I am not there for anyones' approval, I am there to DANCE!!!

But it is a good point that you are making. Really. I wish people would check themselves and their egos more. Oh well.......

[carrigallen]

Not to sound culturally biased, but I think part of this intrinsic self-interest of the dancers may derive from the hispanic cultural routes of salsa, the "machismo" attitude and male pride which is celebrated in many cultures. After all, a dance form given to display and innuendo does not draw the most modest people! It tends to draw people who are more 'into themselves' than average, I would think. That said, I think the most enjoyable dances are with the modest people, not the arrogant ones.

[ArtsySalsera]

….I think when you get the same people allllll the time, atmosphere can go sour. Which is why it's so great to travel to other cities. You get to BE the new blood, and you get to dance with new blood…. Good point. Note to self:…Go further than NYC next time…
I live in L.A. and have been dancing salsa for over 10 years. The L.A. salsa scene is getting worse and worse each year. It is dominated by a bunch of rude, inconsiderate, and trashy people who believe their mediocre dancing is top notch. The scene is dominated by men of all ages stuck in adolescence who for the most will prefer an Asian or other girl under 30 with mostly limited dancing skills and dressed like a hooker. These girls chase these guys down for a dance which feeds these male egos already over-inflated by the erroneous belief that they are God's gift to salsa (and trashy girls). Even some of these men are self-appointed "instructors" who have developed their own cliquish following consisting of the aforementioned riff-raff. So if you dance for the love of the music and for the love of the dance, or if you are a mature and self-confident man who is secure in your own ego, or if you are an over-30 self-confident and secure female who refuses to dress like a hooker, or refuses to chase men down for a dance, you're wasting your time and your money trying to meet and dance with decent salseros/as in LA Wow! Ugh! I was gonna come out there to dance in a new place but never mind now. http://www.online-thecatsmeow.com/images/Emoticons6/lol2.gif
I don't know if it can be done. It's like asking if you can change someone who doesn't want to change.….My own philosophy is to ignore the ones who don't accept me, and concentrate on those that do. Easier said than done, but eventually you surround yourself with people that you want to be around (and want to be around you) - rather than ones that you're trying to beg for attention from.

It's unfortunate that it's sorta like Jr High all over again, and that you're not going to be friends with everyone. But hey, it's still better than the traditional club/bar scene. OMG! You sound soooo much like me that it’s scary. My sentiments exactly. http://www.online-thecatsmeow.com/images/Emoticons3/high5.gif
……I think the truth is somewhere in between the scene "sucks" and "wow, everyone is sooooo nice." Attitude and ignorance is everywhere. Salsa is really no worse than lets say the WCS scene. For some reason people get attitudes based on very little real world evidence and support. I have to check myself sometimes when I get weird.

Who knows why it is that way but if you want to go out dancing you have to, I think, deal with it. It is real, but then deal with it.
....Aaaah, who am I kidding... I think salsa is fine, the people are the ones who need adjustment... Psssst, I’ll tell you a secret…..Don’t tell anyone…..Lately, after I get dressed and get to the door to go out dancing, sometimes, sometimes I turn around and http://www.online-thecatsmeow.com/images/Emoticons/saybye_n_fly.gif go do something else, so I don’t have to deal with it…. but I’ll always love the dance itself…No, there’s nothing wrong with salsa dancing itself. Hmmmm….I wonder what ballroom is like. http://www.online-thecatsmeow.com/images/Emoticons6/lol2.gif

……There definitely are egos, but I feel like so many people are really dancing for fun and wanting to get better, not to impress others, but because it's a fun challenge against oneself! For me, this is what I’m doing when I go out dancing….
to have fun, learn, grow and to not stay static in my dancing.

Question:
If you’ve danced with 2 or 3 noobies in a row and another noobie asks you to dance but you’re aching to dance with so and so whose attention you almost have, what do you yourselves usually do? Just curious....

BTW:
I very much appreciate this thread and the viewpoints I share with many people on it.
It's very comforting to read all of your posts. Thanks, SDsalsaguy for initiating this thread.

[Big10]

Question:
If you’ve danced with 2 or 3 noobies in a row and another noobie asks you to dance but you’re aching to dance with so and so whose attention you almost have, what do you yourselves usually do? Just curious....
I'd accept the invitation because, personally, I don't decline unless I've already promised to dance with someone else or I'm so tired that I have to sit the entire song out. Then I ask that person (who I had to decline) at the next available opportunity.

The reasons behind that include (1) I don't like to turn anybody down, (2) I remember what it was like getting turned down as a newbie, (3) I'm a leader so it's rarer for women to do the asking, and (4) I go out dancing enough so if I miss one of my favorites this time around, the odds are pretty good that I'll see that person on a different night relatively soon, anyway.

If those factors don't stop you from turning down the newbie (perhaps because you really are that close to dancing with "so and so"), then maybe you could say, "I'm waiting to dance with [so and so], but I'll be happy to dance with you after that." Then it would be nice if you actually made an effort to find the newbie afterwards. Like most other guys who decided to stick with Salsa, I remember the people who were nice to me (and the people who were cold to me) along the way.

[ArtsySalsera]

I usually do the latter, thanks.
I was just curious about others.

[thespina13]

Not to sound culturally biased, but I think part of this intrinsic self-interest of the dancers may derive from the hispanic cultural routes of salsa, the "machismo" attitude and male pride which is celebrated in many cultures. After all, a dance form given to display and innuendo does not draw the most modest people! It tends to draw people who are more 'into themselves' than average, I would think. That said, I think the most enjoyable dances are with the modest people, not the arrogant ones.

Trouble here is that I find my best dances are with THE most "demonstrative" dancers. This isn't the same as arrogant, but can tend to get muddled if the leader isn't secure or decent. Demonstrative... I met a new guy who pronounces all his movements and telegraphs his intentions with such aplomb, such charisma and clarity and a certain amount of exaggeration, that it' sliterally impossible to not understand what he wants, yet he's gentle and understands the mechanics of the follow's body and motion, he's tremendously musical, and delightfully funloving and forgiving. So, you have the "I'm looking GOOD and I know it" vibe, rarely mized with the "i'm a gentleman and not obsessed with machismo" vibe, and it works. But it IS a hard thing to find. Too many people relate being demonstrative with being a bit of an egoiste.

[tj]

Question:
If you’ve danced with 2 or 3 noobies in a row and another noobie asks you to dance but you’re aching to dance with so and so whose attention you almost have, what do you yourselves usually do? Just curious....

Well, as much as I preach that we need to encourage noobies, there comes a point in the night where you want to dance with a partner who's at least competent. Up to you on where to draw the line. I like Big10's excuse, but there's always the problem on what happens if said experienced dancer doesn't dance that song with you and then you'll look a little silly standing there not dancing.

Can you catch the eye of one of the more experienced dancers? That's usually all it takes to get me to come ask you, for example.


BTW:
I very much appreciate this thread and the viewpoints I share with many people on it. It's very comforting to read all of your posts. Thanks, SDsalsaguy for initiating this thread.I'm glad. Was kinda concerned about how negative the slant is on this thread, but figured people need to vent once in a while.

[salsera_alemana]

I find this thread very interesting! Many replies reflect my own experience in different salsa scenes (Germany, the Netherlands, Puerto Rico, USA: DC, Kansas City, Jacksonville & Orlando (FL)).

I have been dancing salsa since 1991 and have watched how the salsa scene has been growing enormously and at the same has been changing. I am not as motivated anymore to go out because unfortunately the great ambiente I knew from my first salsa years has disappeared from most scenes. Great ambiente = everybody was really enjoying and having fun with everybody else for the sake of dancing. Now the ambiente is poisoned by competition, rudeness, showing off etc., all the things that have been mentioned in this thread.

However, fortunately there are still places where one can dance in style and in a nice grooving ambiente. Here in Jacksonville, where we live now, the scene is pretty small and "underdeveloped" (surprising since this is Florida!), which also means not much competition and showing off but not a high level of salsa, neither, not many good dancers.

In Orlando are some great clubs with a very Puertorican/Latin ambiente, really grooving and great where people still really enjoy! A couple of weeks ago we went to the Samba Room on a Saturday. I felt like being in a club in Puerto Rico! Great ambiente! I was one of the very few "gringos/-as" (white/Caucasian people) there, almost all Latinos, some very good and many good dancers, and the people were well dressed. It was a little wilder on the dance floor than in Puerto Rico but still OK compared to all the "dangerous" places I have been to where people constantly step on you.

My experience is: the more Latino the crowd is the less I get stepped on. When I say "Latino" I actually mean predominantly Puertorican. I have experienced dance floors with predominantly Latinos from all over Central and South America and have also been stepped on. I am not saying that other Latinos are ruder than Puertoricans. That is probably not true in "real life" out in the street. But on the dance floor my best experience is in a Puertorican environment. In Puerto Rico it is considered extremely rude to step on others and if you do (it can always happen) then you better sincerely apologize and try not to step on that person again. That is why you can still dance in peace in a Puertorican environment without concentrating more on all others dancing around you than on your actual dancing.

In February we went to a Tito Nieves concert here in Jacksonville, most people there were Latinos, predominantly Puertoricans. The big dance floor was very crowded but I did not get stepped on at all until about 2.00 o' clock when more young dancers (also Latinos) who had a certain level of alcohol danced near us.

[tangotime]

Exactamente ! --Yo sabe

[Sagitta]

Question:
If you’ve danced with 2 or 3 noobies in a row and another noobie asks you to dance but you’re aching to dance with so and so whose attention you almost have, what do you yourselves usually do? Just curious....
Say I would love to dance with you, but for another song. I'll come get you. then...do so! That way even if you do not end up catching teh attention or miss dancing with that other person you don't look foolish.

[RumbaRumbera]

Not to sound culturally biased, but I think part of this intrinsic self-interest of the dancers may derive from the hispanic cultural routes of salsa, the "machismo" attitude and male pride which is celebrated in many cultures. After all, a dance form given to display and innuendo does not draw the most modest people! It tends to draw people who are more 'into themselves' than average, I would think. That said, I think the most enjoyable dances are with the modest people, not the arrogant ones.

This has nothing to do with Hispanic/Latino culture, or with machismo. Most of the arrogant, ego and sex driven salsero/as in L.A. are non-Latinos, or young Latino/as born and raised in L.A. and hence, removed from their Latino roots, i.e. "Americanized" or better said, "Hollywoodized." So, the crux of the problem is not that salsa has engendered "machismo," but that is has adopted "Hollywood" values. It has been uprooted from its Latino roots and re-packaged as “Hollywood-Style,” with its emphasis on youth, sex, cute, and flashiness. Most salsero/as, including many young Latinos, have little or no understanding of the Spanish language and much less, little or no understanding of Latino culture. This leaves a cultural vacuum which is filled with Hollywood values (youth, sex, cute, and flashiness) and only engenders a salsa addict culture in constant pursuit of the perfect technique, the perfect partner, and the concomitant salsa adrenalin rush. Here is the solution: Learn some Spanish, respect the Latino culture, and kill the cheap thrill “Hollywood-Style” salsa values. Men: Stop using salsa to boost your ego and your sex drive. Do that somewhere else. Women: Respect yourself, replace the hoochy-mama look with classy sexy, and stop asking men to dance! I don’t care what excuse you use, you look desperate when you ask men to dance and all you are doing is contributing to the “Hollywood-Style” over-inflated male ego on the dance floor. Those of you who complain about my posts on this issue are part of the problem. Someday you might get it.

[samina]

Women: ... stop asking men to dance! I don’t care what excuse you use, you look desperate when you ask men to dance and all you are doing is contributing to the “Hollywood-Style” over-inflated male ego on the dance floor. Those of you who complain about my posts on this issue are part of the problem. Someday you might get it.

huh. that's interesting. what does asking a man to dance have to do with desperation & lack of self-respect? i do it all the time and believe me, i'm hardly desperate nor lack self-respect. in fact, i probly do it so easily because neither of those is an issue for me...

just curious...

[quixotedlm]

Learn some Spanish, respect the Latino culture, and kill the cheap thrill “Hollywood-Style” salsa values. Men: Stop using salsa to boost your ego and your sex drive. Do that somewhere else.

Since you are recommending that nuclear waste be dumped elsewhere and not on your backyard as it has been since the beginning of dawn, do you have an alternative to propose where the waste can be dumped? I mean, if I can't have my ego and sex drive be boosted by salsa, how do you propose I do that?

Women: Respect yourself, replace the hoochy-mama look with classy sexy, and stop asking men to dance! I don’t care what excuse you use, you look desperate when you ask men to dance and all you are doing is contributing to the “Hollywood-Style” over-inflated male ego on the dance floor. Those of you who complain about my posts on this issue are part of the problem. Someday you might get it.

I like women with the hoochy-mama look who respect themselves. I also like women who will ask exactly what they want, with a wink and a little tongue flick and a sexy touch ;)

[naturallove]

Women: Respect yourself, replace the hoochy-mama look with classy sexy, and stop asking men to dance! I don’t care what excuse you use, you look desperate when you ask men to dance and all you are doing is contributing to the “Hollywood-Style” over-inflated male ego on the dance floor. Those of you who complain about my posts on this issue are part of the problem. Someday you might get it.

Wow--I ask men to dance all of the time! I've had several salsa buddies (leads) tell me how *******ing it is for a woman to ask THEM to dance. Like samina, I certainly have plenty of self-respect. And how does sitting on the sides looking 'stank' because I'm not dancing (and am too proud to ask) make men respect me? Do tell...

[squirrel]

I have always taught my ladies to invite men... instead of feeling sorry for themselves that they are not invited!

And I also teach them to be flirty and sexy and use these qualities to get dances and use them on the dance floor as well, to make their dancing more feminine.

And yes, I tell them to use their clothing to get dances. Why not? Don't we use clothing to attend a business meeting, earn the other's respect and have him do business with us? Don't we use clothing to impress others while at a very "fancy" non-dance event? Don't we use clothing to suggest something when we hang out with our buddies, drinking beer and playing nine pins? :)

[sweavo]

I agree with richierumbero's sentiment but not with his strategy. I would like to see more 'classy-sexy' ladies around. But men are easily distracted and a classy girl will get fewer dances than a flashy one, so I think she should ask for dances.

I don't think things can be changed by abstinence. There are a lot of people who don't drink in the USA but they didn't stop everyone else. I think change has to come from holding up a positive model. So ladies, enthuse about the leaders who are the gentlest and most courteous, don't apologize for preferring them, and more men will seek to emulate them rather than the other type.

I stand by my earlier commenthttp://www.dance-forums.com/showpost.php?p=416578&postcount=124

[squirrel]

As you very well know, women are suckers for "bad guys"... so your advice... :)

I agree with richierumbero's sentiment but not with his strategy. I would like to see more 'classy-sexy' ladies around. But men are easily distracted and a classy girl will get fewer dances than a flashy one, so I think she should ask for dances.

I don't think things can be changed by abstinence. There are a lot of people who don't drink in the USA but they didn't stop everyone else. I think change has to come from holding up a positive model. So ladies, enthuse about the leaders who are the gentlest and most courteous, don't apologize for preferring them, and more men will seek to emulate them rather than the other type.

I stand by my earlier commenthttp://www.dance-forums.com/showpost.php?p=416578&postcount=124

[BrownSkin818]

This has nothing to do with Hispanic/Latino culture, or with machismo. Most of the arrogant, ego and sex driven salsero/as in L.A. are non-Latinos, or young Latino/as born and raised in L.A. and hence, removed from their Latino roots, i.e. "Americanized" or better said, "Hollywoodized." So, the crux of the problem is not that salsa has engendered "machismo," but that is has adopted "Hollywood" values. It has been uprooted from its Latino roots and re-packaged as “Hollywood-Style,” with its emphasis on youth, sex, cute, and flashiness. Most salsero/as, including many young Latinos, have little or no understanding of the Spanish language and much less, little or no understanding of Latino culture. This leaves a cultural vacuum which is filled with Hollywood values (youth, sex, cute, and flashiness) and only engenders a salsa addict culture in constant pursuit of the perfect technique, the perfect partner, and the concomitant salsa adrenalin rush. Here is the solution: Learn some Spanish, respect the Latino culture, and kill the cheap thrill “Hollywood-Style” salsa values. Men: Stop using salsa to boost your ego and your sex drive. Do that somewhere else. Women: Respect yourself, replace the hoochy-mama look with classy sexy, and stop asking men to dance! I don’t care what excuse you use, you look desperate when you ask men to dance and all you are doing is contributing to the “Hollywood-Style” over-inflated male ego on the dance floor. Those of you who complain about my posts on this issue are part of the problem. Someday you might get it.
Rumbera, (based on this and other posts) I think you're going to the wrong venues for you. There are some places I don't frequent because the crowd is too slow, or the dress is too formal. It seems that you may frequent places that have things which you don't "approve of", while there are plenty of other venues that can suit your needs.

Might I suggest...
El Floridita: Every day of the week
Mama Juanas: Friday/Saturday
El Cid: Saturday
Granada: Friday
Silhouettes: Thursday
Stevens: Friday/Saturday

You won't find the crowd you dislike so much at these places.

I also want to comment, as others have chimed in, re: women looking desperate for asking men to dance. 30 years ago that may have been the case, as women moreso had a role and a "place" to maintain. :roll: But in the year 2007, I find the notion of "waiting for my turn to be chosen" - laughable. I probably would have quit salsa post haste had I felt the need to await a man's invite to have fun. If that makes me "desperate for a dance" then I'll gladly take that title. :lol: I'll also gladly leave the club having danced 15/20+ times and been guaranteed a good night. I'm sorry that you view my taking responsibility for my own good time as a "problem". :(

It probably just boils down to what makes the night enjoyable for you. It only takes plentiful and good dances for me. Whereas it may take the full pomp and circumstance of courting for you. To each her own.

[samina]

And yes, I tell them to use their clothing to get dances. Why not? Don't we use clothing to attend a business meeting, earn the other's respect and have him do business with us? Don't we use clothing to impress others while at a very "fancy" non-dance event? Don't we use clothing to suggest something when we hang out with our buddies, drinking beer and playing nine pins? :)

absolutely. looking your best makes you feel your best makes you enjoy (and be enjoyed) at your best.

the nights i wear a red silk halter dress, i guarantee i will not sit down all night...:cool:

[Sabor]

the nights i wear a red silk halter dress, i guarantee i will not sit down all night...:cool:

i'll try red silk boxers next time and test that theory..

[RumbaRumbera]

I agree with richierumbero's sentiment but not with his strategy. I would like to see more 'classy-sexy' ladies around. But men are easily distracted and a classy girl will get fewer dances than a flashy one, so I think she should ask for dances.

I don't think things can be changed by abstinence. There are a lot of people who don't drink in the USA but they didn't stop everyone else. I think change has to come from holding up a positive model. So ladies, enthuse about the leaders who are the gentlest and most courteous, don't apologize for preferring them, and more men will seek to emulate them rather than the other type.

I stand by my earlier commenthttp://www.dance-forums.com/showpost.php?p=416578&postcount=124

Although you disagree on a few points, you get it because you have the wisdom of your years and maybe a little more education than most. All those who responded with objections prove my point that there is little understanding of Latino culture and instead, a whole lot of misconceptions and stereotypes. No one has responded in a substantive manner to the essence of my argument, that salsa has become more rooted in “Hollywood” values than the Latino culture from whence it originated. BTW, I'm RumbaRumbera, a female.

[samina]

something tells me you don't sit by the wayside much anyway, red boxers or not...

[squirrel]

i'll try red silk boxers next time and test that theory..

Picture ... please!

[RumbaRumbera]

Rumbera, (based on this and other posts) I think you're going to the wrong venues for you. There are some places I don't frequent because the crowd is too slow, or the dress is too formal. It seems that you may frequent places that have things which you don't "approve of", while there are plenty of other venues that can suit your needs.

Might I suggest...
El Floridita: Every day of the week
Mama Juanas: Friday/Saturday
El Cid: Saturday
Granada: Friday
Silhouettes: Thursday
Stevens: Friday/Saturday

You won't find the crowd you dislike so much at these places.

I also want to comment, as others have chimed in, re: women looking desperate for asking men to dance. 30 years ago that may have been the case, as women moreso had a role and a "place" to maintain. :roll: But in the year 2007, I find the notion of "waiting for my turn to be chosen" - laughable. I probably would have quit salsa post haste had I felt the need to await a man's invite to have fun. If that makes me "desperate for a dance" then I'll gladly take that title. :lol: I'll also gladly leave the club having danced 15/20+ times and been guaranteed a good night. I'm sorry that you view my taking responsibility for my own good time as a "problem". :(

It probably just boils down to what makes the night enjoyable for you. It only takes plentiful and good dances for me. Whereas it may take the full pomp and circumstance of courting for you. To each her own.

You just don't like Latino/as.

[dance234]

:eyebrow:Yeah. That's definitely what I got out of that post too.

[noobster]

You just don't like Latino/as.

:rolleyes:

No se los alimenten a los trolls, people.

[samina]

Although you disagree on a few points, you get it because you have the wisdom of your years and maybe a little more education than most. All those who responded with objections prove my point that there is little understanding of Latino culture and instead, a whole lot of misconceptions and stereotypes. No one has responded in a substantive manner to the essence of my argument, that salsa has become more rooted in “Hollywood” values than the Latino culture from whence it originated. BTW, I'm RumbaRumbera, a female.

fwiw, the latino culture is alive and well in jersey, and i find the men generally very gracious & classy and nothing declasse about the ladies. as for hollywood... i know nothing about your local vibe and so wouldn't deign to comment on that.

[Sagitta]

A sleaze or a show off is one no matter which culture one comes from. THeir are certain traditions that are common such as the way one asks for dances in Argentine tango. Similarly many latinos come from a culture where a lady does not ask. Forget about latinos as I know many ladies from other cultures, who don't think it is right to ask for a dance.

I have a couple people who ask me and I'll always accept. It does not matter how out of it I am. Reason? They smile and have a good time. They make eye contact. I canot help but want to show them a good time and in the process I'm always happier at the end of the dance. One dresses in pretty rough clothes and dances barefoot, but that does not matter.

[RumbaRumbera]

:rolleyes:

No se los alimenten a los trolls, people.

Estás equivocado/a. Su manera es bien sútil, pero la que es la troll aquí es "Brownskin818."

[noobster]

Estás equivocado/a. Su manera es bien sútil, pero la que es la troll aquí es "Brownskin818."

No entiendo, perdon. Me parece a mi que ella te ha ofrecido unos consejos bien razonables, ?o hay algo que me eluda?

[samina]

no, i agree & think you're spot-on, noobs...

[quixotedlm]

** mod alert - you might want to kill this post. feel welcome to it. i won't delete it myself **

i'm going to call out a very rude behavior here, and i'm going to ask if this rudeness is coming from latino culture, or is it just these specific players (some that i willl call out by name). i'm really only interested in hearing from these folks - either say that you are being rude and stop being that, or just toss the hot potato and blame the latino culture.

the behavior in question is this - since when did it become acceptable to have a conversation in a non-common language (spanish) among folks who don't all understand that language. I for one would like to say, no entiendo, perdon!! - i don't understand spanish.

Now, in my experience with a few groups of latino folks that I know (teachers, random acquaintances), I seem to be hitting this wall all the time. That they are talking with one another in spanish despite the fact that they have an individual (me) hanging out with them that can't follow their language. They would still talk to me in English, but talk in Spanish amongst themselves oftentimes, which makes me feel like being left out. I think it's rude behavior.

Now thus far, I've just attributed it as a bad attitude on part of the specific people and not latinos in general. Here, we have a thread about latino culture, and some of those who are expounding the said culture are also, unequivocally, acting rude (by having a spanish conversation - and please, don't blame the one who started. if you perpetuated the conversation in spanish, you might not want to point fingers). So I'm forced to conclude that something is amiss in the latino culture (so i might as well assume that whatever it is that you are glorifying is suspect and avoid it), or those who are calling out the merits of decorous behavior just don't know how to act politely themselves and have no locus standi to be preaching here.

[samina]

not latino behaviour. my pro & one of his students/one of my friends converse in slovak/czech in front of me all the time. my friend is the one that initiates it, and she will continue it even when i let her know i'm on the outside of the conversation.

sometimes i'll speak greek in passing in front of others who don't understand, but i would never remain in the language unless i were speaking to someone who didn't speak english.

as an aside... i know a salsa friend who speaks both greek & spanish, and we've spoken our own merging of the two languages, which is actually very fun... mixing verbs from one language & adjectives from another. what a hoot...

[Don Silver]

<snip> All those who responded with objections prove my point that there is little understanding of Latino culture and instead, a whole lot of misconceptions and stereotypes. No one has responded in a substantive manner to the essence of my argument, that salsa has become more rooted in “Hollywood” values than the Latino culture from whence it originated. <snip>

Many of us don't respond directly because I suspect there is little I could say that would change your mind. Your perspective is different from mine (and some others) and I respect your views even if I disagree with some of them. (I am old enough not to argue with people who have made up their mind on a specific subject.)

A couple points from my point of view:

1) It will never go back to the way it was 10 years ago or even 3 years ago. Salsa, music, movies, dancing and other arts are evolving constantly and I don't always like the direction. Moving forward Salsa will be influenced by hip-hop, ballroom, international and many other dances, as newer blood is drawn into the scene. My Mom thought rock and roll was ruining us kids, (well, it did in my case), but most of my peers did just fine.

2) Some people make a decision to bloom where they are planted. At some clubs the culture you seek will not be there or will be there now but may not be in the future. If I want "all salsa, all night", I have to support the clubs which support that format, otherwise those clubs will start playing polkas or hip-hop all night if enough people enjoy that exclusively.

This won’t be news to you , but life changes, and I don’t love every change I see, so I support the clubs which fit my likes and don’t support those where I don’t fit. Hopefully, my likes will match enough others (or I can find those people) otherwise I have to simply start playing poker or take up ballroom dancing where tradition is heavily valued. Salsa is a relatively young dance, but even ballet dancing has changed over the years, incorporating many modern influences while still retaining most of it's roots.

I still suspect nothing I say will change your mind as you hold very strong opinions. (Nothing wrong with that, I’m in that camp myself.)

For example: I never see a woman as desperate if she asks me to dance, even though 90% of the time I will ask. I have an ego just like other guys, and I suspect your ego is enhanced when a quality gentleman asks you to dance, and then asks you again, which validates he enjoyed the first dance.

If a lady asks me to dance, as a rule I’ll ask her in the future most of the time. As a guy, you never really know if a woman enjoys dancing with you or she is simply being nice.

I doubt you say negative things to partners, even if they are not your favorite dancers. Most women will fake a good time with me, and they did it when I was a beginner, so it’s difficult to tell if they really enjoyed my lead. There is no way they did in the early days, and I’m still a work in progress so some feedback is helpful. Frankly, if you are faking a good time with me, I’d rather ask someone else, looking for partners that truly enjoy my lead and are excited to dance with me.

I think your point of view is valuable, and being a guy, I will probably never understand all of your points. It’s great to see as much as possible through your eyes but it’s also clear that many others see things differently.

In my mind, that’s what makes things like this forum great!

[noobster]

the behavior in question is this - since when did it become acceptable to have a conversation in a non-common language (spanish) among folks who don't all understand that language.
I recognize that this is considered rude in face-to-face conversation (although I am not myself offended when I am on the outside of it, as I know how difficult it is to keep from slipping into another language when both of you are familiar with it).

But I see it on message boards all the time and never considered it rude. The internet is an open forum, and people speak in hundreds of different languages. I've no idea who may or may not be reading this message, and it doesn't seem reasonable to constrain the language of a post that is not directed at you, just because you might happen along and not be able to read it. No?

as an aside... i know a salsa friend who speaks both greek & spanish, and we've spoken our own merging of the two languages, which is actually very fun... mixing verbs from one language & adjectives from another. what a hoot...
Greek and Spanish are really hard to keep apart, I've found. I have several relatives and one friend who speak both, and after five minutes I don't think anybody even notices how much of each sentence is happening in each language. I think it is because the accents and intonations are so similar. When you throw an English word into a Greek or Spanish conversation you have to change your pronunciation completely; but Greek and Spanish just slip right into each other.

Entonces pote vamos na xorepsoume en la ciudad samina;
Tenemos na gnwristoume apo konta antes fygw pa' California! :D

(Let's see if anybody else around here picks up *that* mishmash, heh heh heh)

[quixotedlm]

not latino behaviour.

I know. The point was that you can't generalize based on limited data points. i haven't enough experience with tons of latinos to blame them as a 'class' for bad behavior. R/R hasn't done enough mind-reading of all skimpily clad women and the men who ask them (exclusively or not) to know that they are all depraved. And we don't have enough analysis and data to prove that Hollywood-in-LA=bad and Latino-Culture=good (If this were true, then NY-style/On2 would be instantly deemed "better" than LA-Style/On1!!). The generalizations are all silly, but we already have the beginnings of a flamewar on the basis of these generalizations.

[samina]

Entonces pote vamos na xorepsoume en la ciudad samina;
Tenemos na gnwristoume apo konta antes fygw pa' California! :D

(Let's see if anybody else around here picks up *that* mishmash, heh heh heh)

LOL... exactly! LOL they blend so seemlessly... who knew??? lol

lipon, cuando pas sto california? definitely quiero na xorepsoume! :D

[noobster]

LOL... exactly! LOL they blend so seemlessly... who knew??? lol

lipon, cuando pas sto california? definitely quiero na xorepsoume!
Dystyxws me voy pronto :(
Feugw la semana que viene! pros to paron vivo con mis goneis en NJ, entonces ligo mas cerca se sena :)
Pero nomizw oti te encuentres akoma lejos de mi, eimaste poly cerca stin poli. Yo akoma me salgo en NY gia xoro por la noche. ?Esy donde bgaineis gia salsa en NJ?

Sorry quixotedlm... but this is too fun. :) Don't worry, we're not saying anything you care about and nobody else on this board understands us either. ;)

[samina]

Dystyxws me voy pronto :(
Feugw la semana que viene! pros to paron vivo con mis goneis en NJ, entonces ligo mas cerca se sena :)
Pero nomizw oti te encuentres akoma lejos de mi, eimaste poly cerca stin poli. Yo akoma me salgo en NY gia xoro por la noche. ?Esy donde bgaineis gia salsa en NJ?

Sorry quixotedlm... but this is too fun. Don't worry, we're not saying anything you care about and nobody else on this board understands us either. ;)

meh... quix, ya just gotta learn some greek... lol

noobs, yo m'aresi na pao sto 88 keys en woodbridge... sabes eso? no tengo programa esto sabado... mipws quieres ir mazi??? :D

[quixotedlm]

Sorry quixotedlm... but this is too fun. :) Don't worry, we're not saying anything you care about and nobody else on this board understands us either. ;)

meh... quix, ya just gotta learn some greek... lol

Mmm... I think you both know that this is different from before. :rolleyes:

[RumbaRumbera]

No entiendo, perdon. Me parece a mi que ella te ha ofrecido unos consejos bien razonables, ?o hay algo que me eluda?

Parece que su intento es dar consejos. Pero es un engaño. Lo que te eluda es que ella quiería ofenderme por medio de recomendarme que yo vaya a los lugares en su lista—una lista de lugares donde hay puros viejito/as que tienen un estilo de bailar muy lento y antigua.

[noobster]

meh... quix, ya just gotta learn some greek... lol

noobs, yo m'aresi na pao sto 88 keys en woodbridge... sabes eso? no tengo programa esto sabado... mipws quieres ir mazi??? :D

Ay, den mporw. Este Sabado exw hdh programmatisei na pame al Seaport con unos amigos gia poto (gia ellos que no 3eroun salsa) y baile (gia ellos que les gusta o xoros). Ela ki'sy si quieres (alla yo se que briskesai un poco lejos apo tin NY, no quiero na se talaiporhsw)

(This is actually much harder in writing than it is in speech!!)

[quixotedlm]

Ay, den mporw. Este Sabado exw hdh programmatisei na pame al Seaport con unos amigos gia poto (gia ellos que no 3eroun salsa) y baile (gia ellos que les gusta o xoros). Ela ki'sy si quieres (alla yo se que briskesai un poco lejos apo tin NY, no quiero na se talaiporhsw)

(This is actually much harder in writing than it is in speech!!)

<tongue in cheek>
othbay aminasay andyay oobsternay areyay eallyray eallyray tupidsay irlsgay. http://planetsmilies.net/tongue-smiley-8849.gif
</tongue in cheek>

[noobster]

Parece que su intento es dar consejos. Pero es un engaño. Lo que te eluda es que ella quiería ofenderme por medio de recomendarme que yo vaya a los lugares en su lista—una lista de lugares donde hay puros viejito/as que tienen un estilo de bailar muy lento y antigua.

Brownskin is that true? :eyebrow: I don't live in LA so I wouldn't know. But I am pretty sure I have heard other people name Mama Juana's and Stevens' Steakhouse at least as places where there are very good dancers.
Don Silver or anyone else care to confirm?

[RumbaRumbera]

Brownskin is that true? :eyebrow: I don't live in LA so I wouldn't know. But I am pretty sure I have heard other people name Mama Juana's and Stevens' Steakhouse at least as places where there are very good dancers.
Don Silver or anyone else care to confirm?

I should have clarified this. The problem with the list are the NIGHTS not the places.

[Pacion]

Dance Forums Guidline

2. The Dance Forums aims to provide quality information about partner dancing of all kinds in a friendly and supportive environment.


Will all those concerned, and you know who you are, please bear the above guideline when posting. In that vain, please write in English! It is rude and unfriendly. What started off as a good thread with some useful information has plummetted to depths that will not be tolerated any further.

If you wish to write in gibberish, please start another thread in Dancers Anonymous and declare the thread as open season on gibberish. Within that context, friendliness and supportiveness is a pre-requisite and non-negotiable...

This thread will be cleaned up in time.

Pacion

[RumbaRumbera]

Will all those concerned, and you know who you are, please bear the above guideline when posting. In that vain, please write in English! It is rude and unfriendly. What started off as a good thread with some useful information has plummetted to depths that will not be tolerated any further.

If you wish to write in gibberish, please start another thread in Dancers Anonymous and declare the thread as open season on gibberish. Within that context, friendliness and supportiveness is a pre-requisite and non-negotiable...

This thread will be cleaned up in time.

Pacion

The title of the forum is, "What's WRONG with salsa?" What do you expect?

[Pacion]

The title of the forum is, "What's WRONG with salsa?" What do you expect?

I expect a mature discussion. If you are unable to provide it, you are welcome to remain stom...

[samina]

edited to remove gibberish...

[Terpsichorean Clod]

edited to remove gibberish...
Not gibberish...Greek-nish :cool:

[samina]

actually, it was real Gibberish... i was sequeing from quix's pig-latin into official Gibberish for his benefit. i'll save it for another thread... :)

[Pacion]

:roll: I wrote gibberish, and I meant gibberish :roll:

I was not singling out Samina or anyone else.

Now, let's get back on topic please.

[SDsalsaguy]

The title of the forum is, "What's WRONG with salsa?" What do you expect?
Yes, and I started it several years ago based on the idea that its possible to be constructively critical of elements of an activity (in this case salsa) that I otherwise love. The fact that I started such a thread doesn't change the guidelines, and any mature adult should be able to discuss the topic in a manner that adheres to the supportive and informational tone of the DF, even when making criticisms. Like Don (excellent post BTW), I appreciate different perspectives, even those I disagree with, but over-generalizations, stereotypes, and denigrating those with different viewpoints are not tolerated here.

[dancin/dj]

Wow--I ask men to dance all of the time! I've had several salsa buddies (leads) tell me how *******ing it is for a woman to ask THEM to dance. Like samina, I certainly have plenty of self-respect. And how does sitting on the sides looking 'stank' because I'm not dancing (and am too proud to ask) make men respect me? Do tell... I teach dance and always mention too the ladies to ask guys too dance, i love when women ask me too dance/ i think the statement this fellow said was very latino machismo old world crap, i not at all sorry for my statement(im latino) and i hate the old world crap about not asking guys too dance, there are some points i agree with about women not acting slutty etc.... but that statement really really shows another reason of what is wrong with salsa....

[Josh]

The scene is dominated by men of all ages stuck in adolescence who for the most will prefer an Asian or other girl under 30 with mostly limited dancing skills and dressed like a hooker.

You just don't like Latino/as.

Please compare your two statements--how Asian dancers as a whole fall into the same category as adolescents, those with limited dancing skills, or hooker-like dress is beyond me...? Not pointing fingers, but it shows that we all have some work to do when it comes to culture relations.

Rumbera, actually I agree with much of what you said--I have seen the culture you're talking about and it's not pretty. Some will choose to ignore it and have a good time anyway. Some will choose to distance themselves from it and ignore it that way. But if you're not enjoying where you're dancing and the culture present, then you should either find a way to get around that, or just get out of it. I've experienced the looks from other races when I walk into a club, and have been in the minority--and it's not a nice feeling to know that others are possibly judging you because of your skin color--but I just love to dance, so I don't care. Your world is what you choose it to be--I'm not saying I don't complain about life sometimes, but the worst thing you can do is be miserable in a situation--so change it! You control your thoughts and feelings, no one else!

Enjoy life, enjoy dancing!! Take hold of your feelings and future and let no one else get in the way!!

[noobster]

Will all those concerned, and you know who you are, please bear the above guideline when posting. In that vein, please write in English! It is rude and unfriendly. What started off as a good thread with some useful information has plummetted to depths that will not be tolerated any further.

If you wish to write in gibberish, please start another thread in Dancers Anonymous and declare the thread as open season on gibberish. Within that context, friendliness and supportiveness is a pre-requisite and non-negotiable...


I'm going to stop with the other languages because I don't want to bug anyone, but I have to say I think it is rather draconian to ban any non-English languages in what is purportedly an open forum (and, might I add, one dedicated to a quintessentially Hispanic form of music and dance in which *all* of the lyrics are in Spanish!).

Again, I've seen other languages used on this and many other public fora and I really cannot see how using another language in a public posting should in any way be considered rude. English has become a default lingua franca for reasons of convenience, but it's a pretty big step from there to declaring the use of other widely spoken (or not) languages 'rude.'

English speakers do not have the market cornered on friendly-and-supportive, and actually I find it rather unfriendly and unsupportive to label non-English languages as "gibberish." Really.

Not gibberish...Greek-nish :cool:
Well. Myself, I prefer... "Speek!" :D

[squirrel]

Eu una as propune sa traducem si in engleza ceea ce dorim sa comunicam in alta limba.

How did the above statement improve the discussion?

I would appreciate it if someone were nice enough to translate it - I wonder how many people speak Romanian on this forum? :)

If no one does, I'll translate it later (remind me please, just in case I forget).

The reason why English is used here is simple: it is the ONLY common language all users speak (to a higher or lower extent). I happen to understand Spanish and French and Italian, but I am using English. Out of courtesy for the people who do not speak the afore mentioned languages.

Discussions are interesting when all can participate.

back to the topic: I think I've said it before, the behaviour RumbaRumbera mentions is not specific to LA. It can be found everywhere around the globe, where men and women meet.

You see it in business. You see it in showbiz. You see it in the street, at every corner. And it is not nice and fair. So what?

A 50-year old woman whose husband leaves her after 15 years of marriage and 2 children to "run off" with the 20-year old maid - does she find it fair?

Is it fair that one is born to look like Carmen Electra and the other like a scarecrow? Of course not! But is it fair that one is born with the brains of Einstein and the other is the village idiot?

Life is not about being fair! And if one doesn't like it, one can do something about it! Change clothing or change the place...

Have I been rude? I hope not! I am just trying to make a point.

[noobster]

Eu una as propune sa traducem si in engleza ceea ce dorim sa comunicam in alta limba.

How did the above statement improve the discussion?

I would appreciate it if someone were nice enough to translate it - I wonder how many people speak Romanian on this forum? :)

I know of one, let's see if he comes sneaking around. :)
Meanwhile, I'm going to guess at "Let someone try to translate this into English if s/he would like to communicate in another language."

How'd I do?

[tangotime]

According to Rum. post, I guess I happen to be one of the " offenders " .
Not by choice ( thats not a complaint ) Being a prof., one is often sought out by the younger ladies in a club ,the reasons, of course, are purely academic .

Sooo-- if you did not know me, and saw me dancing with much younger ladies, would you condemn me on sight ?-- based upon your theory, I would be convicted and tried without knowing the facts. The reality, for most good dancers, is not necessarily age, or looks, but more towards ability .Now if they also happen to have other " attributes " , so what ?

However, I do accept that part of what you say, to be true .The many posts have already stated quite clearly their " take " on the subject.

As to the question of language, I find it quite rewarding when I am able to expand my foreign language vocabulary , especially if it is in espanol ( oops !! )

[Pacion]

I'm going to stop with the other languages because I don't want to bug anyone, but I have to say I think it is rather draconian to ban any non-English languages in what is purportedly an open forum ... and actually I find it rather unfriendly and unsupportive to label non-English languages as "gibberish." :D

Noobster, as someone who has been posting since August 2006, with 401 posts todate and probably read 5 times as many... if you wish to interpret my post and think that I was being draconian and unfriendly, AND that I labelled non-English languages as gibberish, as you obviously did, be my guest.

What is the saying? Divided by a common language? :cool:

For what it is worth, whilst english is the dominent language here on Dance Forums (it does not interest me what other Forums experience in this particular aspect) yes, other languagues have been discussed, mentioned and even phrases/sentences used. However, entire posts were not made in that language.

If you should decide to do some 'research' of the past posts here on DF, you may actually discover that I have quite an international outlook and have an interest in other countries and cultures, including... <drum roll please> non english speaking ones. But, you knew that already. ;)

C'est la vie. :D

[Terpsichorean Clod]

Well. Myself, I prefer... "Speek!" :D
Ah, so you speak Speek. :D

[tangotime]

I thought it was Spekenese ( ya know dog lingo )

[dancin/dj]

Eu una as propune sa traducem si in engleza ceea ce dorim sa comunicam in alta limba.

How did the above statement improve the discussion?

I would appreciate it if someone were nice enough to translate it - I wonder how many people speak Romanian on this forum? :)

If no one does, I'll translate it later (remind me please, just in case I forget).

The reason why English is used here is simple: it is the ONLY common language all users speak (to a higher or lower extent). I happen to understand Spanish and French and Italian, but I am using English. Out of courtesy for the people who do not speak the afore mentioned languages.

Discussions are interesting when all can participate.

back to the topic: I think I've said it before, the behaviour RumbaRumbera mentions is not specific to LA. It can be found everywhere around the globe, where men and women meet.

You see it in business. You see it in showbiz. You see it in the street, at every corner. And it is not nice and fair. So what?

A 50-year old woman whose husband leaves her after 15 years of marriage and 2 children to "run off" with the 20-year old maid - does she find it fair?

Is it fair that one is born to look like Carmen Electra and the other like a scarecrow? Of course not! But is it fair that one is born with the brains of Einstein and the other is the village idiot?

Life is not about being fair! And if one doesn't like it, one can do something about it! Change clothing or change the place...

Have I been rude? I hope not! I am just trying to make a point. tu sei una donna molto intelligente io penso che your my favorite squirrel now, you english is better than mine, when i was in rome 2 weeks ago 2 romanians worked in the hostel i stayed at i found them delightfull once i got to know them(very reserved at first)

[SDsalsaguy]

I'm going to stop with the other languages because I don't want to bug anyone, but I have to say I think it is rather draconian to ban any non-English languages in what is purportedly an open forum (and, might I add, one dedicated to a quintessentially Hispanic form of music and dance in which *all* of the lyrics are in Spanish!).

Again, I've seen other languages used on this and many other public fora and I really cannot see how using another language in a public posting should in any way be considered rude. English has become a default lingua franca for reasons of convenience, but it's a pretty big step from there to declaring the use of other widely spoken (or not) languages 'rude.'

English speakers do not have the market cornered on friendly-and-supportive, and actually I find it rather unfriendly and unsupportive to label non-English languages as "gibberish." Really.


Well. Myself, I prefer... "Speek!" :D
One of the bigger issues you're overlooking, however, is the need to use a language that the moderators are sufficiently familiar with to effectively do their "jobs." As it is, too many members try to use various euphemisms and acronyms to skirt DF policies, so the use of additional languages essentially means that (A) the guidelines get thrown out, or (B) moderating is conducted only via hearsay from other members. As a result, while we welcome and indeed encourage the sharing of different languages and cultures, posting in English is the expected norm even if it is not a steadfast rule.

[noobster]

Pacion and SDsalsaguy: Fine. Buried. No more funny languages. :kissme:

Ah, so you speak Speek. :D
Indeed! :D
But alas no more, as it has been labeled the Speek of the Devil. ;)

[englezul]

Eu una as propune sa traducem si in engleza ceea ce dorim sa comunicam in alta limba.

How did the above statement improve the discussion?

I would appreciate it if someone were nice enough to translate it - I wonder how many people speak Romanian on this forum? :smile:

If no one does, I'll translate it later (remind me please, just in case I forget).

The reason why English is used here is simple: it is the ONLY common language all users speak (to a higher or lower extent). I happen to understand Spanish and French and Italian, but I am using English. Out of courtesy for the people who do not speak the afore mentioned languages.

Discussions are interesting when all can participate.

back to the topic: I think I've said it before, the behaviour RumbaRumbera mentions is not specific to LA. It can be found everywhere around the globe, where men and women meet.

You see it in business. You see it in showbiz. You see it in the street, at every corner. And it is not nice and fair. So what?

A 50-year old woman whose husband leaves her after 15 years of marriage and 2 children to "run off" with the 20-year old maid - does she find it fair?

Is it fair that one is born to look like Carmen Electra and the other like a scarecrow? Of course not! But is it fair that one is born with the brains of Einstein and the other is the village idiot?

Life is not about being fair! And if one doesn't like it, one can do something about it! Change clothing or change the place...

Have I been rude? I hope not! I am just trying to make a point.Amen. Too few people take rsponsibility for the quality of their life today. It's way more convenient to make excuses or blame others for own unsuccesses. I'm tired of these victims.

I kinda chuckle when I see some people - specifically latinos - start speaking posting in spanish as if their words are worth more because they happen to speak the language so prevalent in salsa music, thinking along the lines of:

"What you don't agree with my [often ridiculous] points of view, oh here's a post written in spanish and sprinkled with attitude. Clearly this shows everyone that I'm right. Cause I have tha blood"

I mean this is the kind of thinking that pushes the world forward. Without these rogue innovators, these leaders and problem solvers, the forums would often have threads with no conclusion.

I must say I'm terribly in love. And you say, Rumbera, that some asian girl gets more attention than you? Well perhaps you're not looking at the right cues. Maybe the reason they're getting more attention is not because they are asian, but because they have a better, and less bitten attitude.

[RumbaRumbera]

As many on this forum, I was brought up in the USA and from an early age, I was taught about the Bill of Rights, including the right of free speech, which includes defending another’s right of expression, no matter how reprehensive or controversial. So, although I may post controversial opinions and disagree with many on this forum, I would never support the action of censoring anyone for their opinions or the manner in which they are expressed.

[RumbaRumbera]

I'm going to stop with the other languages because I don't want to bug anyone, but I have to say I think it is rather draconian to ban any non-English languages in what is purportedly an open forum (and, might I add, one dedicated to a quintessentially Hispanic form of music and dance in which *all* of the lyrics are in Spanish!).

Yes, how ironic.....Hispanic music, dance; and Spanish lyrics. You get it. Thanks.

[BrownSkin818]

Parece que su intento es dar consejos. Pero es un engaño. Lo que te eluda es que ella quiería ofenderme por medio de recomendarme que yo vaya a los lugares en su lista—una lista de lugares donde hay puros viejito/as que tienen un estilo de bailar muy lento y antigua.

I gathered from your previous posts that you didn't like snooty salseros and flashy dancing. The places I suggested are full of intermediate+, NON flashy dancers who will gladly ask any lady to dance. Is that not what you were looking for???
:doh:

[RumbaRumbera]

I kinda chuckle when I see some people - specifically latinos - start speaking posting in spanish as if their words are worth more because they happen to speak the language so prevalent in salsa music, thinking along the lines of:

"What you don't agree with my [often ridiculous] points of view, oh here's a post written in spanish and sprinkled with attitude. Clearly this shows everyone that I'm right. Cause I have tha blood"

And you say, Rumbera, that some asian girl gets more attention than you? Well perhaps you're not looking at the right cues. Maybe the reason they're getting more attention is not because they are asian, but because they have a better, and less bitten attitude.

This is highly inflammatory and contains "fighting" words. But I will defend this person's right to express his/her opinion, no matter how controversial and outrageous I find it.

[SDsalsaguy]

As many on this forum, I was brought up in the USA and from an early age, I was taught about the Bill of Rights, including the right of free speech, which includes defending another’s right of expression, no matter how reprehensive or controversial. So, although I may post controversial opinions and disagree with many on this forum, I would never support the action of censoring anyone for their opinions or the manner in which they are expressed.
This is an entirely voluntary community RR, with clearly stipulated guidelines and friendly suggestions when the tone falls outside what we have chosen to have here. You are free to participate accordingly, or equally free not to participate. What neither you nor anyone else has the right to do, however, is to ignore the rules and claim that you have the right to say whatever you want however you want.

At this point this tangent is over. Either accept this is how things are or do not. If you want to communicate with me or anyone else on the staff about this you are more than welcome to, either via PM or the staff mailbox, but any additional public posts on this matter will be considered a breach of the restriction on public discussions of moderating. Do what you want accordingly.

[RumbaRumbera]

I gathered from your previous posts that you didn't like snooty salseros and flashy dancing. The places I suggested are full of intermediate+, NON flashy dancers who will gladly ask any lady to dance. Is that not what you were looking for???
:doh:


:kissme:

[BrownSkin818]

You just don't like Latino/as.
:o u see right through me. and i suppose im a "troll" because I dont like to see anonymous screenames trashing my scene and discouraging others' interest in it?? uhm yea... you pegged me just right. http://www.salserosweb.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/whateva.gif

[BrownSkin818]

:kissme:http://members.chello.nl/%7Ep.vdveen/zzone_forum/smilies/cheers.gif

[RumbaRumbera]

:o u see right through me. and i suppose im a "troll" because I dont like to see anonymous screenames trashing my scene and discouraging others' interest in it?? uhm yea... you pegged me just right. http://www.salserosweb.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/whateva.gif

:kissme:

[sweavo]

Maybe I will get that Tshirt made up after all:
Give peace a chance!

SHUT UP AND DANCE!

[Pacion]

Maybe I will get that Tshirt made up after all:
Give peace a chance!


SHUT UP AND DANCE!


I will do as your t-shirt says Sweavo... on one condition! That you dance with me! :tongue: ;)

[sweavo]

I will do as your t-shirt says Sweavo... on one condition! That you dance with me! :tongue: ;)

Ok you're on! I'm moving my left foot... now!

[dancedude314]

Parece que su intento es dar consejos. Pero es un engaño. Lo que te eluda es que ella quiería ofenderme por medio de recomendarme que yo vaya a los lugares en su lista—una lista de lugares donde hay puros viejito/as que tienen un estilo de bailar muy lento y antigua.


What?? I take offense at that, having just gone to one of those places on the list. Believe me, there were plenty of young people there.

[RumbaRumbera]

What?? I take offense at that, having just gone to one of those places on the list. Believe me, there were plenty of young people there.

No need to be offended. I'm sure you'll agree that the same club can be very different, depending on the night. Please see my subsequent post:

"I should have clarified this. The problem with the list are the NIGHTS not the places."

[RumbaRumbera]

:o u see right through me. and i suppose im a "troll" because I dont like to see anonymous screenames trashing my scene and discouraging others' interest in it?? uhm yea... you pegged me just right. http://www.salserosweb.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/whateva.gif


NOT anonymous. My name is Catalina de la Chusma.

"YOUR" scene. Excuse me, I forgot.:kissme:

[Kali Ma]

Hello, everyone!

I haven't been on this thingy in a donkey's years, but this dragged me right outta my hidey hole:

I live in L.A. and have been dancing salsa for over 10 years. The L.A. salsa scene is getting worse and worse each year. It is dominated by a bunch of rude, inconsiderate, and trashy people who believe their mediocre dancing is top notch. The scene is dominated by men of all ages stuck in adolescence who for the most will prefer an Asian or other girl under 30 with mostly limited dancing skills and dressed like a hooker. These girls chase these guys down for a dance which feeds these male egos already over-inflated by the erroneous belief that they are God's gift to salsa (and trashy girls). Even some of these men are self-appointed "instructors" who have developed their own cliquish following consisting of the aforementioned riff-raff. So if you dance for the love of the music and for the love of the dance, or if you are a mature and self-confident man who is secure in your own ego, or if you are an over-30 self-confident and secure female who refuses to dress like a hooker, or refuses to chase men down for a dance, you're wasting your time and your money trying to meet and dance with decent salseros/as in L.A.!

My flabber is pretty well gasted. I have seldom seen such a perfect nexus of varied prejudices expressed on this board. This post, and several of those with which this poster followed up, is/are filled with a sort of Greatest Hits list of nasty "-isms". This poster should be grateful to have avoided banning on the basis of the highlighted fragment alone. That's a perfect -ism quadrafecta going on, right there (racism/sexism/ageism/classism). I would think that it would be possible to state an opinion or clarify a position without reaching for the nearest big bag of negative stereotypes and hackneyed clichés, but I would apparently be very much mistaken.

My admiration and respect go to the moderators of this board for allowing even the author of such a repugnant statement to defend, retract or elucidate said as s/he sees fit. The author of this post should be thanking them rather than pretending that they have refused anyone their rights (free speech guarantees, by the way, have no bearing whatsoever on a privately run forum; this poster and everyone else here is present and speaks at the discretion of the site owner/s. Classic trolling-in-the-guise-of-justice-crusading, that.)

Another HUGE chunk of admiration for the grace exhibited by the posters to whom this person--in my estimation--was needlessly and boundlessly rude; you have class...in abundance!

<thread drift over>
<lurk mode reactivated>

[sweavo]

I must be pretty much un-offendable then. All I saw was an emotional rant against the bigoted attitude of the stuck-in-adolescence guys!

For my part, I think it's more productive to look for what someone's trying to say rather than get annoyed at how they say it!

[SDsalsaguy]

I think both are true sweavo. Name calling (as well as personal attacks, profanity, and the like) are prohibited by the DF guidelines, and have no place on DF. And, as Kali Ma well notes, this is a private domain, so arguments about freedom of expression, etc., are almost always used as excuses by those who want to ignore the community standards. That said, you are right that it is almost always more productive to recognize and respond to meaning rather than form... but, as various linguistic and cultural studies materials all show, the dichotomy is never so clear; that form conveys meaning too. Just think of tone of voice when talking with a baby. Obviously not the same, but how one says something here does matter and does have consequences.

[thespina13]

So what ARE the consequences here? "...Asian or other girl..."?? Come on now. I understand the frustration with certain attitudes and trends on the dance floor but come on now. We're going to let racism go unchecked here?

[sweavo]

Certainly not wishing to criticize the mods, who I think do a great job.

I haven't read the whole thread since at a glance it's mostly personal attack and counter attack and not related to dance. It takes one person to cause offense, but it takes more than one to make a flamewar.


* looks for a way to tenuously tie this back in to "what's wrong with salsa?" *

[thespina13]

LoL.. sweavo, that's a mighty task you've laid before yourself. The title of the post is so negative that it immediately puts any poster either on the offense or defense.

Personally, I feel that dancers in general are pretty crazy people! When you get that many crazies in one room you're bound to have some ego or drama or whatever. I also think salsa has gotten to the point where it's not a new dance anymore, and so people are continually looking for the bigger, better, more more more thing, which gets their egos truly involved. I wasn't around for the huge salsa boom of latter decades, so I don't know if previous dancing generations were better or worse, attitude-wise... but think about the 100-metre sprint in the Olympics. The standard has gotten so inhumanly high that look what happens to the runners now. In the pursuit of record-breaking, we have drug, sponsorship, fan and ego issues. Is it different on the social dance floor? Is DANCING and FUN the focus anymore or is it something different? I don' tknow. This is all just a theory to get discussion going again.

[sweavo]

So what ARE the consequences here? "...Asian or other girl..."?? Come on now. I understand the frustration with certain attitudes and trends on the dance floor but come on now. We're going to let racism go unchecked here?

Still failing to see what's racist about ranting against people who prefer Asians...

[samina]

So what ARE the consequences here? "...Asian or other girl..."?? Come on now. I understand the frustration with certain attitudes and trends on the dance floor but come on now. We're going to let racism go unchecked here?

i think rumbera was just referring to a "type"... pointing out that other people are partial to certain backgrounds or types isn't racist...

i know the "type" rumbera was trying to convey, even if it was awkwardly described... and there are definitely male dancers who are particularly drawn to that. in fact, there's one at one of the studios i go to who is well-known for only selecting asian ladies to dance with...

[sweavo]

LoL.. sweavo, that's a mighty task you've laid before yourself.

And yet you managed it in two short paragraphs!

I absolutely agree that dancer are nutters. I mean, passionate people. I even think that the act of dancing in some way fosters passionate behavior, i.e. skipping the thinking part between feeling and acting.


...Is it different on the social dance floor? Is DANCING and FUN the focus anymore or is it something different? I don't know. This is all just a theory to get discussion going again.

I've certainly felt over the last couple of years a lot of the joy leaking out of salsa for me. But it's impossible for me to say whether that's internal or external to me, and if external, whether it's part of salsa per se, my local scene, or other things in my life. It is because I'm teaching now? Because I'm not finding the time to improve my repertoire alongside planning and running classes? Because I'm not single? Because of getting drawn into salsa politics? Because of my ex trying to ex-communicate me? Ho hum. Good times still happen. I guess the important thing is to keep a perspective. Try explaining the on1/on2 war to a non-salsa person. The look on their face will show you how important or otherwise all these issues are...

[Sagitta]

hmmm...I wonder what my prejudices are...let's see last Tuesday....I danced with the one black skinned person in the room, couple hispanics, the one Asian female in the room, quite a few white skinned people...but then there were many of them... I think I do a fairly decent job. ;-)

My eye definitely will catch ladies who are dressed to attract attention, so often they will get dances. But, I also will choose people if I notice that their friend is being asked a lot and they aren't. Perhaps by each of us changing our behavior we can improve the salsa scene.

I do avoid the rueda practices on Tuesday as they drive me crazy, and dancing with "grossed-me-out lady". The music choice often is atrocious as new music isn't played often....I will tend to dance more with new people as I want to experience how they react to my craziness...

Then there is the lack of dance manners with space hogging/wild moves....

It would be nice to quietly get rid of what often are the few rotten apples that we have no hopes of improving. That often can change a dance scene dramatically.

[tangotime]

Thesp---I was around in those times ( am still around, I guess ).

No internet , just the good old phone. The " scene" was as friendly, and where everyone seemed to admire each others skills, little as they may have been. It was always about encouragement ( I speak from personal exp. )

[MacMoto]

Still failing to see what's racist about ranting against people who prefer Asians...

Because the rant was also aimed at "trashy young Asian girls with limited dancing skills dressed like hookers chasing men and thereby feeding their inflated ego (okay not only Asian girls, but)"? Maybe that's not what Rumbera meant, but it did sound like that...

[tj]

Sigh. Ok, this thread has gone on long enough. I agree it's time to shut it down.

There's entirely too many DF veterans who don't like some of the posts as well as the general tone of the thread. Rather than continuing to let it fester back to the top, I'm locking it.