Getting sick after a competition

[Tinydancergirl]

Quick question. I seem to find that many dancers, pro and am get sick after a competition. Is it because of the stress of the comp or is it some germ that manages to get passed around because of the enclosed enviroment?
Thanks! :D
Tinydancergirl

[Laura]

Interesting. Could just be the people you know. I've been competing for 10 years and I haven't really noticed such a trend. I'm not saying that bugs don't get passed around, but I really hadn't noticed it as being a problem issue.

[Tinydancergirl]

Interesting. Could just be the people you know. I've been competing for 10 years and I haven't really noticed such a trend. I'm not saying that bugs don't get passed around, but I really hadn't noticed it as being a problem issue.

Hmm. Guess I know a lot of sickies! :) I'd say over half catch a horrendous cold after their comps. It baffles me too. Thanks, Laura
Tinydancergirl

[mamboqueen]

I've noticed people on here actually saying that. I think all the stresses that culminate up to the competition and then you're in a room full of people, and perhaps a plane full of people. I can definitely see how it happens. I think it seems to happen more in the winter time....

Of course, imbibing at the parties and hotel bar will knock your resistance down a bit, too!

[Warren J. Dew]

I've noticed it. I think it's the combination of lots of people - which means some are probably contagious - combined with stress and dehydration, making one more susceptible to infection. I've noticed something similar on plane flights, though there one isn't exercising to the point of drying out the nasal passages and such.

I found the incidence seemed to go down a lot when I started being strict about carrying my own water and making sure I kept myself hydrated, drinking a little bit between each round and preferably between dances where possible.

[nucat78]

Cold viruses are usually transmitted by contaminating your hands and then touching your eyes, nose or mouth. Interestingly the viruses are usually NOT transmitted via saliva, so kissing isn't risky but the close face-to-face contact is.

So, wash your hands lots and stay out of people's faces. LOL!

Stress can lower your resistance also.

[Laura]

Good points Warren. Maybe I haven't noticed it because I've always been a "stay hydrated" person and also a long time ago I started making sure I brought proper nutritious food to comps rather than relying on what I can find quickly in a hotel or sports facility type situation. Also, I wash my hands frequently -- every time I come back to my room/flat, before meals, after visiting the rest room. I am at a LOT of comps, though, either dancing or working, so I can't really afford to get sick at them, and I haven't in a very long time.

[Tinydancergirl]

I've noticed it. I think it's the combination of lots of people - which means some are probably contagious - combined with stress and dehydration, making one more susceptible to infection. I've noticed something similar on plane flights, though there one isn't exercising to the point of drying out the nasal passages and such.

I found the incidence seemed to go down a lot when I started being strict about carrying my own water and making sure I kept myself hydrated, drinking a little bit between each round and preferably between dances where possible.

Makes a lot of sense. Hydration is always important, especially when dancing. Thanks!
Tinydancergirl

[contracheck]

Is it because of the stress of the comp or is it some germ that manages to get passed around because of the enclosed enviroment?
Thanks! :D
Tinydancergirl

Germs are not guilty in this case. Germs need a couple of weeks of incubation period to make people sick.

[nucat78]

Germs are not guilty in this case. Germs need a couple of weeks of incubation period to make people sick.

Pathophysiology: Rhinoviruses are transmitted to susceptible individuals by direct contact or by aerosol particles infecting both ciliated areas of the nose and nonciliated areas of the nasopharynx through receptors, most frequently ICAM-1 (found in high quantities in the posterior nasopharynx). Few cells are actually infected by the virus, and the infection involves only a small portion of the epithelium. Symptoms develop 1-2 days after viral infection, peaking 2-4 days after inoculation, although reports have described symptoms as early as 2 hours after inoculation with primary symptoms 8-16 hours later

See also MedLine site.

Added proper attribution:

Authors: Michael Rajnik, MD, Clinton Murray, MD

Editor(s): Gregory William Rutecki, MD, Associate Professor, Program Director, Department of Internal Medicine, Feinberg School of Medicine, Northwestern University

[NielsenE]

yeah I almost always get sick after competitions. Doesn't matter if I was scrutineering, or if I was competing. I didn't get sick too often after competiting when I was an amateur competitor as now when I'm doing pro-am. More multi-day competitions I think are to blame for the difference, rather than any other factor.

[Chiron]

I've seen/experienced a similar effect in other activities. The situations where I've seen it there is a long duration of stress (e.g. build up to comp, long semester, long performance season) and then a let down/break (e.g. comp over, end of exams, last performance). It is almost like our bodies know we can't afford to get sick during the build up and hold off getting sick until things calm down.

[chachachacat]

Could be this...

"I can't get sick before the comp. I will NOT get sick during the comp!" Repeat, repeat.
Then, you stop thinking that after the comp. Vigilance is relaxed, voila!

[contracheck]

Pathophysiology: Rhinoviruses are transmitted to susceptible individuals by direct contact or by aerosol particles infecting both ciliated areas of the nose and nonciliated areas of the nasopharynx through receptors, most frequently ICAM-1 (found in high quantities in the posterior nasopharynx). Few cells are actually infected by the virus, and the infection involves only a small portion of the epithelium. Symptoms develop 1-2 days after viral infection, peaking 2-4 days after inoculation, although reports have described symptoms as early as 2 hours after inoculation with primary symptoms 8-16 hours later

See also MedLine site.

Added proper attribution:

Authors: Michael Rajnik, MD, Clinton Murray, MD

Editor(s): Gregory William Rutecki, MD, Associate Professor, Program Director, Department of Internal Medicine, Feinberg School of Medicine, Northwestern University

A claim in a paper does not make it a scientfic fact. The claim must be reproduced by others and cofirmed many times over before we accept it. Medical literature is full of dhort-lived calims. We all need to have laser-beam eyes that can distinguish gems from rocks. Besides, we have no evidence that those people who get sick after a competition is caused by rhinovirus.

[soshedances]

I've seen/experienced a similar effect in other activities. The situations where I've seen it there is a long duration of stress (e.g. build up to comp, long semester, long performance season) and then a let down/break (e.g. comp over, end of exams, last performance). It is almost like our bodies know we can't afford to get sick during the build up and hold off getting sick until things calm down.

Me too, when my body finally gets to relax after running around, my immune system lets its guard down too.

I have competed with the stomach flu before...my partner brought a huge bottle of Purell and we both used it after each round. :oops: Lucky devil though, he didn't get the bug!

[jjs914]

I've seen/experienced a similar effect in other activities. The situations where I've seen it there is a long duration of stress (e.g. build up to comp, long semester, long performance season) and then a let down/break (e.g. comp over, end of exams, last performance). It is almost like our bodies know we can't afford to get sick during the build up and hold off getting sick until things calm down.

I would agree with this. Sometimes you put yourself under a lot of stress leading up to something and your body reacts after the fact. I would say in the case of finals, and maybe in the case of some people with some comps, if you spend a lot of time prepping the week or two before (dance extra hours, get less sleep), you weaken your immune system to begin with. Then combine that with all the people at a comp, etc.

[Tinydancergirl]

I would agree with this. Sometimes you put yourself under a lot of stress leading up to something and your body reacts after the fact. I would say in the case of finals, and maybe in the case of some people with some comps, if you spend a lot of time prepping the week or two before (dance extra hours, get less sleep), you weaken your immune system to begin with. Then combine that with all the people at a comp, etc.

Hmm. Well I'm going to do my best to stay as stress free as I can, take lots of extra vitamins, so that I don't weaken my immune system during comp times. I help out alot taking care of my elderly grandparents (they are awesome! :together:), and I would rather slit my throat than infect them with a cold.
Running to take extra C!
Tinydancergirl

[samina]

(Responding to nucat's post...I took so long I went outa sequence...)

Meh...if you believe in the whole germ theory thing... People get sick not due to germs, which are everywhere, so much as an immune system that is failing to function as it should/could.

Having said that, I often notice congestion in my lungs when checking out of a comp hotel. Feels like sensitivity to poor air quality and/or "cleaning" chemicals in the rooms.

[dancerman]

I've noticed it. I think it's the combination of lots of people - which means some are probably contagious - combined with stress and dehydration, making one more susceptible to infection. I've noticed something similar on plane flights, though there one isn't exercising to the point of drying out the nasal passages and such.

I found the incidence seemed to go down a lot when I started being strict about carrying my own water and making sure I kept myself hydrated, drinking a little bit between each round and preferably between dances where possible.

Not my area of expertise but I think there is a lot to be said about hydration. I know that my massage therapist tells me after a massage to drink a lot of water to "Flush out the Toxins" released from deep tissue massage. Probably the same with any type of germs??

[fascination]

I went through a phase where I was getting sick the week of every comp and I think it was due to an uptick in stress and in the amount of physical exertion leading up...I have learned to scale back and it has helped

[mamboqueen]

sleep is usually my elixir

[contracheck]

sleep is usually my elixir

I thought that it was drink. Have you changed your life style finally?

[mamboqueen]

I thought that it was drink. Have you changed your life style finally?

sleep before, drink after. have you learned *nothing*?

[contracheck]

sleep before, drink after. have you learned *nothing*?

A sklow learner, getting worse everyday. No wonder why my coach has left me finally.

[sambanada]

....overdrive on little fluids, little food, little sleep, a lot of stress, followed by celebrations of overeating and drinking.

[contracheck]

....overdrive on little fluids, little food, little sleep, a lot of stress, followed by celebrations of overeating and drinking.

Good rest, hot Sauna and sound nap on hot floor at Inspa World in Queens (New York Times article), and good food will take care of the problem in no time. Excess Vitamines won't help; in fact, too much Vitamines act as posions.
There is no evidence that massive dose of Vitamin C helps anything even though it was advanced by the true genius Linus Pauling several decades ago. I'd support Pauling if there is any slight evidence that it works as he said. I was one of the colleagues who threw a farewell beach party when he decided to leave us for Stanford. In general, Vitamines should come from food we eat and not as pills. Vitamines and antioxidants are biggest fallacy that make a lot of liars rich.

[samina]

A sklow learner, getting worse everyday. No wonder why my coach has left me finally.
Wha...whaddya mean, cc?

[fascination]

feel free to pm her ;)

[danceronice]

Exception to the vitamins in food rule: we process folic acid better from synthetic sources. (This is somewhat more important for women than men.)

I frequently get sick after traveling. I attribute it to stress.

[contracheck]

I frequently get sick after traveling. I attribute it to stress.

I used to have a little secret place to go after stressful event, but it is no longer a secret place because stupid New York Times exposed it. If anyone is interested in this place, go to NYT website and find articles about "King Sauna in New Jersey" or "Inspa World in Quens." The newer Inspa World is so huge that it can accomodate 3000 customers. A paper said that 5000 people went there over the Memorial Day weekend. These are massive sauna places that are exploding fad currently. Russians, Middle Easterners, Asians, South Americans, Scandinavians - those people who know how to enjoy good life - flock there like crazy. They have regular hot and cold baths, steam room and dry sauna. I go through them. Then, there is a person who clean your entire naked body with semi-abraisve cloth. This treatment is particularly helpful to women who want to have beautiful skin. It removes all of the dead skin and tan residues. This treartment helps circulation, and you feel really great afterward. All the women I take there with me look radiant and glowing after the treatment. Then, I head for total body massage room where a well trained sports masseur massages aching and abused muscles for 2 hrs. Then I enter an igloo-type rooms where the floor is madly hot and I grill my muscles on the floor. Depending on the room, the room is filled with aroma from plants or minerals, but these rooms are crucibles - very hot. There you take nap as long as you can stand. You sweat like crazy, so you have to drink a lot of water. I always consume several glasses of freshly prepared fruit juices, which are sold there. I also order hearty meals composed of heavy load of protein and carbo. There are gym equipment so I usually do my workout there. Finally, I recieve foot massages for an hour. I can always reenter the igloo for more naps or go to a TV room and watch TV or go to the computer room and check my emails. There are barber shop for men and beauty salon for women. If you go through this process after each competition, there is no way you can be sick. You're ready for next competition in no time. These places are partcularly useful for pros who compete constantly. I've taken a number of them, and I know they regularly visit there now on their own.

[Tinydancergirl]

I used to have a little secret place to go after stressful event, but it is no longer a secret place because stupid New York Times exposed it. If anyone is interested in this place, go to NYT website and find articles about "King Sauna in New Jersey" or "Inspa World in Quens." The newer Inspa World is so huge that it can accomodate 3000 customers. A paper said that 5000 people went there over the Memorial Day weekend. These are massive sauna places that are exploding fad currently. Russians, Middle Easterners, Asians, South Americans, Scandinavians - those people who know how to enjoy good life - flock there like crazy. They have regular hot and cold baths, steam room and dry sauna. I go through them. Then, there is a person who clean your entire naked body with semi-abraisve cloth. This treatment is particularly helpful to women who want to have beautiful skin. It removes all of the dead skin and tan residues. This treartment helps circulation, and you feel really great afterward. All the women I take there with me look radiant and glowing after the treatment. Then, I head for total body massage room where a well trained sports masseur massages aching and abused muscles for 2 hrs. Then I enter an igloo-type rooms where the floor is madly hot and I grill my muscles on the floor. Depending on the room, the room is filled with aroma from plants or minerals, but these rooms are crucibles - very hot. There you take nap as long as you can stand. You sweat like crazy, so you have to drink a lot of water. I always consume several glasses of freshly prepared fruit juices, which are sold there. I also order hearty meals composed of heavy load of protein and carbo. There are gym equipment so I usually do my workout there. Finally, I recieve foot massages for an hour. I can always reenter the igloo for more naps or go to a TV room and watch TV or go to the computer room and check my emails. There are barber shop for men and beauty salon for women. If you go through this process after each competition, there is no way you can be sick. You're ready for next competition in no time. These places are partcularly useful for pros who compete constantly. I've taken a number of them, and I know they regularly visit there now on their own.

Wow. Quite a regimen! Sounds like you've found the perfect system. I'm interested in what kind of fruit juices you take. Would you mind letting me know what kinds you find beneficial? I've found raw pinapple juice to be a great anti-inflammatory, especially if you've experienced a dance-related injury. It's also a great little energy boost!
Thanks!
Tinydancergirl

[waltzgirl]

I think the flying is a big part of it. I used to get sick every time I flew from being enclosed with all those circulating germs. Dehydration is also a problem on planes--the air has almost no moisture in it and that sets up your respiratory system to be vulnerable to germs.

[dbk]

Comp sickness! Also known as convention sickness! :)

Yeah, it's a mix of physical stress (overworking your body, often while underfeeding it), being smushed together with a bunch of people from all over the state/country (especially if there's travel involved), and probably a bit of emotional stress too.

I got hit REALLY bad my first competition. :(

[contracheck]

Wow. Quite a regimen! Sounds like you've found the perfect system. I'm interested in what kind of fruit juices you take. Would you mind letting me know what kinds you find beneficial? I've found raw pinapple juice to be a great anti-inflammatory, especially if you've experienced a dance-related injury. It's also a great little energy boost! Thanks!
Tinydancergirl

I take a variety of fruit juices, whatever available. There is not one best juice. Just make it sure that they are prepared fresh before your eyes. Raw Pineapple juice is good. It contains high sugar, which is a quick energy source (forbidden to diabetes). Also vege juices are good. If you want to recover from the post-competition sickness quickly, make it sure you visit a sauna I described, get your body scraped with soapy semi-abrasive cloth to wash off dirts and to improve circulation, get deep muscle massages, heat up your body as high as comfortable, and sweat out. All cellular and molecular activities inside our body and elsewhere are much faster at high temperature. Our wasted metabolites are removed faster from the body through improved circulation and profuse sweating. You, of course, replenish lost minerals and vitamines though the fresh juices. Of course, it's a lot more fun if you go to sauna with your partner or significant others. If you follow this simple remedy, you will recover from the sickness quickly and be ready to move to one competition after another, and one voictory after another, fully energized. This treatment is also very good for those tired huddled mass of city dwellers. In Los Angeles alone there are 60 such facilities (each of them is larger than 100,000 sq ft) under construction (perfect for long flight passengers). These facilities are popping up like Starbucks.

[Tinydancergirl]

I take a variety of fruit juices, whatever available. There is not one best juice. Just make it sure that they are prepared fresh before your eyes. Raw Pineapple juice is good. It contains high sugar, which is a quick energy source (forbidden to diabetes). Also vege juices are good. If you want to recover from the post-competition sickness quickly, make it sure you visit a sauna I described, get your body scraped with soapy semi-abrasive cloth to wash off dirts and to improve circulation, get deep muscle massages, heat up your body as high as comfortable, and sweat out. All cellular and molecular activities inside our body and elsewhere are much faster at high temperature. Our wasted metabolites are removed faster from the body through improved circulation and profuse sweating. You, of course, replenish lost minerals and vitamines though the fresh juices. Of course, it's a lot more fun if you go to sauna with your partner or significant others. If you follow this simple remedy, you will recover from the sickness quickly and be ready to move to one competition after another, and one voictory after another, fully energized. This treatment is also very good for those tired huddled mass of city dwellers. In Los Angeles alone there are 60 such facilities (each of them is larger than 100,000 sq ft) under construction (perfect for long flight passengers). These facilities are popping up like Starbucks.

Sounds like a great detox. I'm curious. Have you heard of or tried the Ayurveda principles?
Tinydancergirl

[contracheck]

Sounds like a great detox. I'm curious. Have you heard of or tried the Ayurveda principles?
Tinydancergirl
No. I generally don't believe these mystic ancient Indian or Chinese remedies. You're generally correct if you assume them BS. It's ludicrous if we are led to believe that Ididans, Chineses, South American Indians, or any other people many hundreds of yrs ago knew more about medicine than we do nowadays. By the way, if you need an anti-inflammatory drug, take aspirin (providing that it does not give you stomach problem). All of these massive commercial ploys not withstanding, there has been no better and safer anti-inflamatory drug than aspirin, a simple compound originally extracted from willow tree by a dentist, in the past hundred yrs of the history of medicine.

[chachachacat]

Whoa contracheck! Don't go around knocking other cultures!
They have known things for thousands of years that the current medical establishment is now realizing have value. Of course they have value! I can't even believe you wrote that!

[fascination]

Whoa contracheck! Don't go around knocking other cultures!
They have known things for thousands of years that the current medical establishment is now realizing have value. Of course they have value! I can't even believe you wrote that!correct...and let me add that there are plenty of folks who have begun an aspirin regimen without doctor's consultation who have learned that it is in fact very very bad for them including all sort of problems from bloody noses to internal bleeding at even low doses...both alternative medicine and things more accepted in the modern medical arsenal should be looked at on an individual basis

[star_gazer]

correct...and let me add that there are plenty of folks who have begun an aspirin regimen without doctor's consultation who have learned that it is in fact very very bad for them including all sort of problems from bloody noses to internal bleeding at even low doses...both alternative medicine and things more accepted in the modern medical arsenal should be looked at on an individual basisTrue..but about once a week I splurge and take a couple aspirin. Its like a miracle..I feel so good and its cheap and legal.

[fascination]

sure...just be careful....I have had a few loved ones make that mistake to their detriment...again, it's individual

[Katarzyna]

just got back from blackpool, feeling totally sick... guess there is a connection to comps and health..

jetlag, here I come

[waltzgirl]

No. I generally don't believe these mystic ancient Indian or Chinese remedies. You're generally correct if you assume them BS. It's ludicrous if we are led to believe that Ididans, Chineses, South American Indians, or any other people many hundreds of yrs ago knew more about medicine than we do nowadays. By the way, if you need an anti-inflammatory drug, take aspirin (providing that it does not give you stomach problem). All of these massive commercial ploys not withstanding, there has been no better and safer anti-inflamatory drug than aspirin, a simple compound originally extracted from willow tree by a dentist, in the past hundred yrs of the history of medicine.

History of aspirin:

"Medicines derived from willow trees and other salicylate-rich plants have been part of pharmacopoeias at least dating back to ancient Sumer. A stone tablet of medical text from the Third Dynasty of Ur, dated ca. 3000 BC, lists willow among other plant- and animal-based remedies; however, no indications are given. The earliest specific reference to willow and myrtle (another salicylate-rich plant) being used for conditions that would likely be affected by their analgesic, anti-pyretic, and anti-inflammatory properties comes from the Ebers Papyrus, an Egyptian medical text from ca. 1543 BC, likely a copy of a text from around the time of the Ur tablet.[1]

Willow bark preparations became a standard part of the materia medica of Western medicine beginning at least with the Greek physician Hippocrates in the fifth century BC; he recommended it to ease the pain of child-bearing and to reduce fever. The Roman encyclopedist Celsus, in his De Medicina of ca. 30 AD, suggested willow leaf extract to treat the four signs of inflammation: redness, heat, swelling and pain. Willow treatments also appeared in Dioscorides's De Materia Medica, and Pliny the Elder's Natural History. By the time of Galen, willow was commonly used throughout the Roman and Arab worlds.[2]"

Oh, I guess those ancient people may have known a thing or two!

[contracheck]

A good work Waltzgirl. Taking humility aside for now, Do You know that I am one of the world's premere researchers on aspirin? The method all the hospitals around the world use to determine how much salicylate is in blood is my method. I'm the sole inventor of this method and I have a US Patent (#5362630). Aspirin is not recommended in certain cases, but rememebr that most of senior citizens with high blood pressure take aspirin because of its blood thinning effect. Aspirin is the most safe and effective anti-inflammatory drug. Don't use any other expensive drugs. Big pharma company always try to fool us.

[Laura]

just got back from blackpool, feeling totally sick... guess there is a connection to comps and health..

jetlag, here I come
I guess I spoke too soon on this thread, because I just got back from Blackpool last night and I was sneezing on the plane and now my nose is runny.

But it could also be spring allergies in San Francisco, since I was gone for basically the whole month of may things started making pollen while I wasn't around and my system is now being inundated.

I'm working the jet lag thing too :)

[samina]

*hugs to laura and kat*

Air quality on planes can be a doozer, as well...

[fascination]

it really could be the allergies...I haven't been this sick with them for years

[Laura]

Right now my nose is itching so badly I feel like I'd like to remove it.

[fascination]

yep...

[contracheck]

I guess I spoke too soon on this thread, because I just got back from Blackpool last night and I was sneezing on the plane and now my nose is runny.

But it could also be spring allergies in San Francisco, since I was gone for basically the whole month of may things started making pollen while I wasn't around and my system is now being inundated. I'm working the jet lag thing too :)

Go get my treatment. Don't suffer, and get well quickly. We need you around here.

[contracheck]

Whoa contracheck! Don't go around knocking other cultures!
They have known things for thousands of years that the current medical establishment is now realizing have value. Of course they have value! I can't even believe you wrote that!
What made you think that I knock other cultures? I knock voodoo medicine, total fallacy that give false hope to sick people.

[latingal]

What made you think that I knock other cultures? I knock voodoo medicine, total fallacy that give false hope to sick people.

contracheck, others may believe otherwise - let's respect their right to their beliefs.

[dancepro]

When I competed, I used to get sick after every competition. Like after the British Open, I used to get sick on the Sunday for a week. After I retired I would get sick by Wednesday of the British Open. After I started judging I would get sick after a weekend of judging. I started sleeping on magnets, learned to get rid of bad energy and I started drinking Mona Vie. I have not been sick at all the last 9 years.

As a coach, I pick up the stress and pain of my students. I want to make sure they are feeling at their very best. So if I take the stress on to me, then they don't have to deal with it. As a judge you have to be open to everything that happens on the floor with the couples. This make the good and the bad energy go through the body. There are a lot of energy going around the room of a competition. So everybody needs to learn how to deal with the energy the goes around.

Happy dancing

[Joe]

it really could be the allergies...I haven't been this sick with them for years
Oddly, this year I haven't had really bad allergies (knock on wood). Yet, anyway.

[QPO]

My partner has a theory that Lactic Acid build up in the body, and reduces the efficiency of the immune system (this is a condensed version) making some people more susceptible to a viral infection. But whether it is proven is another thing.

[contracheck]

Oddly, this year I haven't had really bad allergies (knock on wood). Yet, anyway.

This is a bad sign for you, Joe. This probably means that you're getting old and your immune system has lost fighting power. I don't know what will come next.

[contracheck]

contracheck, others may believe otherwise - let's respect their right to their beliefs.

What about me? Don't I have right to state my belief? Do I have to turn over and play dead to the people who beliive that the earth is square and to the people who believe in polygamy?

[contracheck]

I started sleeping on magnets, learned to get rid of bad energy and I started drinking Mona Vie. I have not been sick at all the last 9 years.
Happy dancing

Please pardon me, but what is Mona Vie? A brew from Crystal Skull? Hawaiians swears by that Noni is the panacea. Anyone tried Noni?

[contracheck]

just got back from blackpool, feeling totally sick... guess there is a connection to comps and health.
jetlag, here I come

I guess you're not an iron woman after all, but your condition is absolutely normal. During the surge of adrenaline in the excitement of competition, we usually don't feel that we over abused our bodies. After the competition and when adrenaline shuts down we start to pay the price in one way or another. As far as i know, good rest is the only solution.

[samina]

Oddly, this year I haven't had really bad allergies (knock on wood). Yet, anyway.

same here, and in recent years i've been quite uncomfortable. not a sniffle this spring, thank goodness.

also, i've competed in seven comps since january and haven't gotten sick yet.

[samina]

Hawaiians swears by that Noni is the panacea. Anyone tried Noni?

i have long experience drinking noni, about 11 years and numerous impressive experiences both firsthand and with my children. noni is a genuinely special plant...

[contracheck]

i have long experience drinking noni, about 11 years and numerous impressive experiences both firsthand and with my children. noni is a genuinely special plant...
My interest in Noni has perked. I know that you're a serious person. I have a famous doctor friend who told me that his mother had been sick with all kinds of old age-related ailments but her condition has improved since she took Noni. My skeptical mind wouldn't have believed him if he is not a great doctor who has discovered oneof the most important neurotransmitters.

[samina]

my overall experience with noni is that it is a powerful adaptogen that produces more dramatic results the sicker and more out-of-balance one is. it is also a miracle for skin problems & burns. it is a potent topical painkiller and system alkalizer that can normalize stomach problems very quickly. it definitely has powerful antibacterial, wound-healing properties, and is potent as an agent to minimize or reduce scarring and/or tissue degeneration.

it's also a detoxifier, although my family doesn't really have dramatic stories along those lines -- i've just encountered that with others. similarly, it's helped numerous friends & acquaintances with hormonal issues, including chronic migraines.

it has proven itself in some very grave circumstances in our family.

[fascination]

Oddly, this year I haven't had really bad allergies (knock on wood). Yet, anyway.may you continue to enjoy being passed over

[mamboqueen]

my overall experience with noni is that it is a powerful adaptogen that produces more dramatic results the sicker and more out-of-balance one is. it is also a miracle for skin problems & burns. it is a potent topical painkiller and system alkalizer that can normalize stomach problems very quickly. it definitely has powerful antibacterial, wound-healing properties, and is potent as an agent to minimize or reduce scarring and/or tissue degeneration.

it's also a detoxifier, although my family doesn't really have dramatic stories along those lines -- i've just encountered that with others. similarly, it's helped numerous friends & acquaintances with hormonal issues, including chronic migraines.

it has proven itself in some very grave circumstances in our family.

Sounds a bit like brandy. :cool:

[samina]

fwiw, i am not a fad/pop health consumer. not into supplements in general... there are very few "products" i incorporate into my lifestyle for health purposes.

i have a different perspective from yours CC, however, in that i do regard the modern western medical perspective as downright barbaric at times because of its ignorance & disregard of the whole organism, mind-body-and-spirit. including understanding of the role of nutrition and of the body as an electrical system, and the role of the mind & emotions to generate healthful states (such as release of healthful hormones and other naturally-occurring "pharmaceutical" agents in the body). and these are topics that are often well-represented in comparatively ancient health modalities.

[fascination]

What about me? Don't I have right to state my belief? Do I have to turn over and play dead to the people who beliive that the earth is square and to the people who believe in polygamy?if they aren't making their claim here to begin with and aren't around to address your issues it wouldn't really serve a useful purpose to take a stance so strong in it's verbiage as to be pre-emptively insulting for no reason... now, can we get off of whether or not one is being persecuted and just get back on topic?...better yet, let me just state that we need to steer this back onto the subject and away from things that are potentially insulting AS HAS BEEN kindly requested now by at least two different people

[Purr]

Please pardon me, but what is Mona Vie? A brew from Crystal Skull? Hawaiians swears by that Noni is the panacea. Anyone tried Noni?

MoniVie is a health drink, a blend of the Brazilian acai berry and other nutrient dense fruits. These include cranberry, bilberry, white grape, passion fruit, cama camu, nashi pear, banana, wolfberry, acerola, apricot, pomegranate, pear, prune, lychee fruit, aronia, kiwi, purple grape, and blueberry.

MonaVie Active contains glucosamie with the originial formula.

MoniVie purports itself as having a variety of health benefits.

[contracheck]

MoniVie is a health drink, a blend of the Brazilian acai berry and other nutrient dense fruits. These include cranberry, bilberry, white grape, passion fruit, cama camu, nashi pear, banana, wolfberry, acerola, apricot, pomegranate, pear, prune, lychee fruit, aronia, kiwi, purple grape, and blueberry.

MonaVie Active contains glucosamie with the originial formula.

MoniVie purports itself as having a variety of health benefits.

Sounds it is what I have been looking for all my life. Where can I buy it? it does not contain Ginseng doe is? Ginseng is one of the largest fraud in the history medicine.

[contracheck]

if they aren't making their claim here to begin with and aren't around to address your issues it wouldn't really serve a useful purpose to take a stance so strong in it's verbiage as to be pre-emptively insulting for no reason... now, can we get off of whether or not one is being persecuted and just get back on topic?...better yet, let me just state that we need to steer this back onto the subject and away from things that are potentially insulting AS HAS BEEN kindly requested now by at least two different people
I am always on the topic. I only counter when someone make unfair remark to me. I wasn't knocking any culture, for instance. Then, you unfairly select me and try to muzzle me. You should direct your aim to the other parties.

[fascination]

drop it now

[contracheck]

my overall experience with noni is that it is a powerful adaptogen that produces more dramatic results the sicker and more out-of-balance one is. it is also a miracle for skin problems & burns. it is a potent topical painkiller and system alkalizer that can normalize stomach problems very quickly. it definitely has powerful antibacterial, wound-healing properties, and is potent as an agent to minimize or reduce scarring and/or tissue degeneration.

it's also a detoxifier, although my family doesn't really have dramatic stories along those lines -- i've just encountered that with others. similarly, it's helped numerous friends & acquaintances with hormonal issues, including chronic migraines.

it has proven itself in some very grave circumstances in our family.

Aha, the secret has been revealed. Noni is the secret to your exceptional good look and happy life!!. It keeps you getting into trouble with others, too. I guess I should try it.

[samina]

Aha, the secret has been revealed. Noni is the secret to your exceptional good look and happy life!!. It keeps you getting into trouble with others, too. I guess I should try it.

heh... yes, try a little harder to not get into trouble, CC. you are a colorful addition to DF...if you can just behave yourself!

so, let's drop this altogether and return to discussion of the tendency to get sick after a comp...

one thing i notice and have to pay attention to is whenever i'm working hard to take my dancing and body's limits to the next level, including the exertion that occurs at a competition, i really need to make time to REST, deeply & fully afterwards. i can feel that i am just totally spent. and after i've taken that time, i feel great.

but if i don't or can't... it's an awful feeling of dragging. i'm sure that would definitely take its toll and begin to create illness after comps.

[Chiron]

one thing i notice and have to pay attention to is whenever i'm working hard to take my dancing and body's limits to the next level, including the exertion that occurs at a competition, i really need to make time to REST, deeply & fully afterwards. i can feel that i am just totally spent. and after i've taken that time, i feel great.

but if i don't or can't... it's an awful feeling of dragging. i'm sure that would definitely take its toll and begin to create illness after comps.

I'm a big fan of mandatory rest, I have days built in my workout schedules where I'm supposed to sit around. Over training can be nasty and suppresses your immune system in addition to stopping any gains you were making (it's so depressing to see your mile splits increase as keep pushing yourself harder).

This got me looking into what some marathoners and triatheletes do and I found a few interesting things. First is that 1 out of 7 marathon runners get sick after the race and 1 in 4 ultramarathoners get sick. This is due to stress (large drop in blood sugar) of the races causing your body to suppress its immune system. Most marathoners suffer from suppressed immunity for a time from 3-72 hours. Typical recover for the marathoners and triathelets involves getting hydrated and eating as soon as they are able once they finish. They typically go for high glycemic foods (e.g. bread, fruit, sports drinks) to get their blood sugar back up. Also there is usually about a week off after the race to let the body recover.

Doing a marathon or a triathalon is a little different than a dance competition, but I'm betting some factors are the same. At a dance competition you have multiple days where your sleep schedule/eating schedule/work out schedules get messed around with. Here's guessing that our blood sugars get messed up and we don't get enough rest. Probably the best way to fight of these effects are eat right, stay hydrated, try to get enough sleep, and if you have a couple tough rounds rapid fire eat something sweet after. (Now lets see if I can take my own advice and stay healthy at the next comp :p)

[contracheck]

I'm a big fan of mandatory rest, I have days built in my workout schedules where I'm supposed to sit around. Over training can be nasty and suppresses your immune system in addition to stopping any gains you were making (it's so depressing to see your mile splits increase as keep pushing yourself harder).

This got me looking into what some marathoners and triatheletes do and I found a few interesting things. First is that 1 out of 7 marathon runners get sick after the race and 1 in 4 ultramarathoners get sick. This is due to stress (large drop in blood sugar) of the races causing your body to suppress its immune system. Most marathoners suffer from suppressed immunity for a time from 3-72 hours. Typical recover for the marathoners and triathelets involves getting hydrated and eating as soon as they are able once they finish. They typically go for high glycemic foods (e.g. bread, fruit, sports drinks) to get their blood sugar back up. Also there is usually about a week off after the race to let the body recover.

Doing a marathon or a triathalon is a little different than a dance competition, but I'm betting some factors are the same. At a dance competition you have multiple days where your sleep schedule/eating schedule/work out schedules get messed around with. Here's guessing that our blood sugars get messed up and we don't get enough rest. Probably the best way to fight of these effects are eat right, stay hydrated, try to get enough sleep, and if you have a couple tough rounds rapid fire eat something sweet after. (Now lets see if I can take my own advice and stay healthy at the next comp :p)
Well said. Spoken like Dr Marcus Welby!!

[contracheck]

Sounds a bit like brandy. :cool:

Ha, ha, am I the only one who is not surprised?

[samina]

Ha, ha, am I the only one who is not surprised?

Lol, I was gonna say tequila. But my regard for noni far surpasses my regard for tequila. Which, if anyone knows me, is saying something. ;)

[dance234]

I seriously doubt blood sugar drops are at the root of the typical ailments that befall people after stressful events - that just doesn't make sense. If blood sugar variations were that catastrophic (and plenty of us have felt very sick from this so I don't want to completely discount it) everybody would be sick a HECK of lot more often than they are, and much more seriously.

Blood sugar fluctuation has long-term (chronic) consequences that are widespread, extremely serious and only starting to be understood vis-a-vis the Western diet... but that's a completely different (and much bigger issue.)

Also, it's a *large* stretch to extrapolate post-EXTREME SPORT illnesses to other kinds of events. The degree of difference between running a marathon and everything else is too large. You say "a little" different... for all of us except for the very heavy competitors at a high level, it's way more than a "little." The demands on the body for the average non-professional dancesporter are both different and less than those upon the body of a marathoner. Ballroom dancing is not athletically analogous to an endurance event (long days of many rounds notwithstanding!) but rather to sprinting. Did you ever see a 100-yard dasher run off the track and start pounding sugar? No? No.

People get sick after "big events" that don't have physical elements and which don't cause major disturbances to diet, sleep patterns, or schedule. For some people, the sickness is the only way they will slow down and rest, and so their body sees to it that rest happens. Stress simply impedes the immune system, and that simply makes you more susceptible to the viruses and bacteria that are around you EVERY day. So something as simple as a cold bug that your body would normally laugh at... can put you in bed for days when you're tired and stressed out.

[samina]

For some people, the sickness is the only way they will slow down and rest, and so their body sees to it that rest happens. Stress simply impedes the immune system, and that simply makes you more susceptible to the viruses and bacteria that are around you EVERY day. So something as simple as a cold bug that your body would normally laugh at... can put you in bed for days when you're tired and stressed out.

Yep, I would definitely agree.

I also agree that ballroom competition is more analogous to sprinting than endurance running. As a former sprinter who's currently sprint-challenged and endeavoring to regain that conditioning, the requirement of sudden bursts of power in intervals is on my mind all the time right now. And my understanding is that the body uses primarily lactic acid for fuel in that process, not sugar. (You're reminding me, I wanted to return to reading up on glycolosis - could be wrong, but I'm recalling that's the process of converting lactic acid back to sugar...hmm, my knowledge of the anaerobic energy systems is still evolving)

[waltzguy]

kissing isn't risky but the close face-to-face contact is. So, wash your hands lots and stay out of people's faces.

I finally now understand why the Standard ladies always look to the left and away from me! :razz:

[Warren J. Dew]

Ballroom dancing is not athletically analogous to an endurance event (long days of many rounds notwithstanding!) but rather to sprinting.

I agree it's not like a marathon, but it's not like sprinting, either. A dance lasts maybe 2 minutes and a round 10; if you want to compare it to track, the closest distances are probably in the half mile to two mile range.

If you dance multiple rounds or multiple events, you probably want to avoid lactic acid generation, since it will still be around to limit your ability for the next round. Brief spurts of energy within a dance can be supported using phosphocreatine reserves.

[samina]

I don't think it's the distance but the kind of energy system used by the body and amount of time spent utilizing it. Since the anaerobic energy system is used within the first 2 minutes, with aerobic kicking in after that, seems to me closest comparison would be a series of 220 sprints.

But of course we all know it's not the same as running because of how relaxed one has to be at the same time one is dancing.

Anyway, am curious to know more about how you would avoid using lactic acid, as that seems to be the primary fuel after the 1st 30 seconds.

[Warren J. Dew]

All muscle activity is based on dephosphorylation of adenosine triphosphate (ATP) to adenosine diphosphate (ADP). The ATP level normally present in muscles only provides a second or so of activity. For more than that, the ADP needs to be converted back to ATP. There are three ways this conversion can happen.

The first is through conversion of phosphocreatine to creatine through the Lohmann reaction; the phosphate ion lost by the creatine converts the adenosine diphosphate back to the triphosphate form for use by the muscles. This also happens in reverse: when the muscles are resting and not using ATP, and the ATP levels are rebuilt in one of the other two ways, some of it is consumed to convert the creatine back to phosphocreatine. Basically the phosphocreatine acts as a short term buffer of energy, lasting on the order of ten seconds, depending on the level of activity.

The second is the rather complex process of aerobic metabolism. The first half of this process starts with using energy from splitting one unit of glucose to two of pyruvic acid, plus some inorganic phosphate, in order to phosphorylate three units of ADP to ATP; this process also reduces two units of nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide (NAD+ => NADH). The second half of the process happens in the mitochondria, consumes the pyruvic acid along with some fatty acid and oxygen, oxidizes the NADH back into NAD+, and phosphorylates 36 units of ADP into ATP, generating water and carbon dioxide as waste products. The second half of this process is limited by the ability of the lungs and circulatory system to provide the oxygen and carry off the carbon dioxide, which is why it's called "aerobic". Note that aerobic metabolism goes on all the time, even when resting; the things you hear about minimum levels of effort and times for "aerobic exercise" don't refer to whether or not it's actually aerobic, but rather to whether or not the effort level is high enough to elevate the heart rate for long enough to qualify as "exercise".

The third way of rephosphorylating the ADP is through purely anaerobic metabolism, which happens when the muscles work harder than can be sustained by aerobic metabolism. In this case, the first half of the aerobic path happens as with the aerobic process, but the second half does not. Instead, the NADH reacts with the pyruvic acid to form NAD+ and lactic acid, which is a waste product, not a fuel. The lactic acid is then carried off in the bloodstream to the liver, which converts it back to glucose over the course of hours.

Note that purely anaerobic metabolism is much less efficient than aerobic metabolism, yielding only 3 units of ATP per glucose molecule, as opposed to 39 units of ATP for aerobic metabolism. For that reason, higher than aerobic levels of effort are best avoided unless you can afford to rest for the hours the liver needs to reprocess the lactic acid before your next event. A sprinter whose next race is more than a few hours away can afford to go all out; a dancer whose next round is less than a few hours away cannot.

For those who fell asleep, here's the summary:

- aerobic metabolism - medium level of effort - uses glucose slowly and efficiently - produces CO2 as a waste product - used by distance runners and can be sustained through multiple rounds of competition

- anaerobic metabolism - very high level of effort - uses glucose quickly and inefficiently - produces lactic acid as a waste product - used by sprinters but cannot be sustained through multiple rounds of competition

Edit: for anyone wanting a more complete description, see McMahon, Thomas A., "Muscles, Reflexes, and Locomotion".

[Joe]

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[fascination]

ahem...thank you warren for taking the time and energy to go into detail

[Chris Stratton]

For that reason, higher than aerobic levels of effort are best avoided unless you can afford to rest for the hours the liver needs to reprocess the lactic acid before your next event. A sprinter whose next race is more than a few hours away can afford to go all out; a dancer whose next round is less than a few hours away cannot.

What happens if you don't wait for the liver to catch up? Does the lactic acid remain in the muscle tissue, in the blood, in the liver, or all of the above? I think we know what it feels like in the muscles short term, but I'm curious what effects it may have elsewhere?

[Warren J. Dew]

What happens if you don't wait for the liver to catch up? Does the lactic acid remain in the muscle tissue, in the blood, in the liver, or all of the above?

I think it eventually accumulates in the liver.

There's a limit to this, though, because continued exercise at anaerobic levels will fairly quickly exhaust the reserves of glycogen - the glucose polymer that provides reserves of glucose for high levels of effort - in the muscles, due to the glucose inefficiency of anaerobic metabolism.

[contracheck]

I think it eventually accumulates in the liver.

There's a limit to this, though, because continued exercise at anaerobic levels will fairly quickly exhaust the reserves of glycogen - the glucose polymer that provides reserves of glucose for high levels of effort - in the muscles, due to the glucose inefficiency of anaerobic metabolism.

Please note that there is neither lactic acid nor pyruvic acid in our body. These compounds can't exist in acid forms in physiological pH. They only exist as lactate and pyruvate, respectively (look for ther dissociation constants). IMHO, we are straying into a wrong area too much. Leave biochemistry to me and you nice people focuss on dancing. I wrote a book about NAD and NADP, and ATP synthesis. The book's name is "Pyridine Nucleotide Coenzymes" and my publisher was Academic Press, NY.

[samina]

Hm. Lots of food for thought, and most of this appears to contrast with what I've been reading. I don't yet have enuf gathered knowledge on these energy systems to comment thoughtfully, but I can say as yet I'm not hearing any practical recommendations on how to train to by-pass the generation of lactic acid, and that's what I'm most interested in, if that's actually what will increase stamina during competition.

The issue of the value/role of lactic acid seems to be of some dispute in sports-high-performance circles.

[Chris Stratton]

I suspect that the general answer is to get to your limits on a regular basis in practice, to try to push them out a bit further for competition - not just to get through the pre-aerobic period, but also because it sounds like at times the existing aerobic capacity may not be enough to do the job on its own. I get the sense that the problem with supplemental anaerobic usage might not just be the lactate, but also glycogen depletion. But there are probably smarter vs. less productive ways of training to expand capabilities.

[dancepro]

Please note that there is neither lactic acid nor pyruvic acid in our body. These compounds can't exist in acid forms in physiological pH. They only exist as lactate and pyruvate, respectively (look for ther dissociation constants). IMHO, we are straying into a wrong area too much. Leave biochemistry to me and you nice people focuss on dancing. I wrote a book about NAD and NADP, and ATP synthesis. The book's name is "Pyridine Nucleotide Coenzymes" and my publisher was Academic Press, NY.

What contracheck has posted here is what my chiropractor friend has always said. He gave me books to read and study to understand that exact point. Your book "Pyridine Nucleotide Coenzymes" were one of the books that he suggested. How small the world is:rolleyes: Thank you for writing the book. I had my chiropractor write a piece of my book as I do work my muscles in dancing. I am however not a doctor nor do I claim to be one. I wanted a doctor that understand muscles and sports to give an input. We as professionals try to explain the use of the body, but most of us don't really studied the inner workings of the body. It has been a big challenge to write a book and not get into a depth the includes the inner workings. Once again thank you for writing.

[samina]

ah, so we have an academic celeb in our midst!

CC, would there be value from a dancer's perspective in reading your book, do you think? if it takes becoming an energy expert, that's what i'll do to get the abiding mojo i desire...:cool:

[samina]

so, CC, i have an energy question for you...

i started drinking ionized, alkalized water about a month ago and quite unexpectedly *immediately* noticed a huge surge in available energy. felt like my body was suddenly running on three times the amount of oxygen as usual. i also read somewhere that alkalizing the body with this kind of water can help the body metabolize lactic acid (or rather, lactate, it seems...) more efficiently, without the immobilizing effects.

what do you make of this?

[Warren J. Dew]

I can say as yet I'm not hearing any practical recommendations on how to train to by-pass the generation of lactic acid, and that's what I'm most interested in, if that's actually what will increase stamina during competition.

The answer to that is simple and boring - aerobic training. That's what full five dance practice run throughs without a break are good for. Running, biking hard enough to get the heart rate up, etc., all work as well - pretty much anything that has you breathing hard for at least 10 minutes.

[samina]

The answer to that is simple and boring - aerobic training. That's what full five dance practice run throughs without a break are good for. Running, biking hard enough to get the heart rate up, etc., all work as well - pretty much anything that has you breathing hard for at least 10 minutes.

well, that gets me back to the diff between aerobic & anaerobic training & energy systems.

okay, so this is the type of information i've come across differentiating aerobic & anaerobic metabolism. it's from wikipedia, but i originally came across it elsewhere:

There are two types of anaerobic energy systems, the ATP-CP energy system, which uses creatine phosphate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creatine_phosphate) as the main energy source, and the lactic acid (or anaerobic glycolysis) system that uses glucose (or glycogen) in the absence of oxygen. Events or activity that lasts up to thirty seconds relies almost exclusively on the former, phosphagen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphagen), system. Beyond this first thirty seconds the lactic acid system begins to predominate. This provides an inefficient use of glucose, and produces by-products that are thought to be detrimental to muscle function. Continuing activity beyond two minutes becomes aerobic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerobic).

i can do steady aerobic exercise for a good length, but its the sudden bursts of energy i exert when doing rounds that kills me. it's hard for me to fathom that i am *that* out of shape aerobically, but i *definitely* feel out of shape for anaerobic activity.

but it sounds like you aren't differentiating between the two, warren... or don't believe that ballroom dancing utilizes anaerobic metabolism. you clearly have more scientific background in this regard, so i am officially puzzled.:rolleyes:

[wyllo]

i can do steady aerobic exercise for a good length, but its the sudden bursts of energy i exert when doing rounds that kills me. it's hard for me to fathom that i am *that* out of shape aerobically, but i *definitely* feel out of shape for anaerobic activity.

What type of aerobic exercise are you doing? Is it possible that it is not conditioning you for ballroom? If you want to be fit to compete it seems like your best training option is to simulate competition conditions by dancing rounds. I do think cross training in other fitness activities can be useful, but nothing prepares you to dance like dancing.

[samina]

I do think cross training in other fitness activities can be useful, but nothing prepares you to dance like dancing.

yes, this i understand. have had a number of discussions with my instructor about this, how there's no other way to truly condition for it because of the unique demands of ballroom -- you can't "effort" thru as is possible in other sports, and one must remain relaxed. perhaps this is all that is needed.

of course, as a pro-am competitor, i am limited in how to go about this.

i'm still inclined to think that anaerobic interval step training may help improve things.

[Chris Stratton]

i can do steady aerobic exercise for a good length, but its the sudden bursts of energy i exert when doing rounds that kills me. it's hard for me to fathom that i am *that* out of shape aerobically, but i *definitely* feel out of shape for anaerobic activity.

but it sounds like you aren't differentiating between the two, warren... or don't believe that ballroom dancing utilizes anaerobic metabolism. you clearly have more scientific background in this regard, so i am officially puzzled.:rolleyes:

Unless I'm misunderstanding the situation, the aerobic process is not necessarily able to completely take over for the anaerobic one after two minutes. It takes a lot of the load, and that's what lets you continue for a long time. At a sustainable pace it would be taking all of the load. But if you are really pushing yourself, you are asking more than it can deliver and some anaerobic process will be going on as well. And that - either buildup of lactate or depletion of glycogen through this less efficient process - is what does you in.

The goal of aerobic training would be to increase the capacity to get oxygen into muscle cells. But are there other capacities that can be increased as well? Can we increase our lactate tolerance? Can we persuade our muscles to store more glycogen? Or is all of the gain in reducing the need to use the anaerobic pathway by increasing the capacity of the aerobic one?

[contracheck]

ah, so we have an academic celeb in our midst!

CC, would there be value from a dancer's perspective in reading your book, do you think? if it takes becoming an energy expert, that's what i'll do to get the abiding mojo i desire...:cool:

No, unfortunately. The was mainly used for Graduate and Post Graduate courses and special medical people who were interested in the frontline energy metabolism. In the 30s and 40s there was an incredible German scientist named Otto Warburg who saw that, unlike normal cells, tumor cells rely on glycolysis more than Kreb Cycle and mitochondrial ox-phos mechanism to gain energy for survival and uncontrolled propagation. Blindly following Warburg, Many people tried in the ensuing decades to choke off cancer by blocking glycolysis, but this approach, as you know, did not result in a hopeful outcome; cancer is still unconquered problem. This episode illustrates the complexity of Energy metabolism. A small man like myself can't tell dancers what to do. By the way, Warburg was so good that he was the only Jew Hitler protected. Hitler worried about catching cancer the most, and he thought that Warburg was the only man who could save him. After Nazis surrendered, there was a tremendlous race between Russians and Americans to get hold of Warburg and his laboratory first. An American general got him and the famous rocket scientist von Brown before the Russians did. This is going to be my last post on this topic because I feel that this is an irrelevant topic to dancing. Some people keep my head on their crosshair all the time and do not hesitate to pull the trigger at any excuse.

[samina]

i wish there were a way to plug myself into a computer and analyze exactly the nature of the the deficiencies, with the output being the exact necessary plan to remediate.

these computerized analyses must exist somewhere... i wonder where i could find one.

[Chiron]

Hm. Lots of food for thought, and most of this appears to contrast with what I've been reading. I don't yet have enuf gathered knowledge on these energy systems to comment thoughtfully, but I can say as yet I'm not hearing any practical recommendations on how to train to by-pass the generation of lactic acid, and that's what I'm most interested in, if that's actually what will increase stamina during competition.

The issue of the value/role of lactic acid seems to be of some dispute in sports-high-performance circles.

Your body is going to generate lactate if you are working hard, and that's a good thing as it gives you more energy for your dancing. What you may want to do is lactate threshold training. Disclaimer, there is still debate about lactate threshold and sports science isn't my speciality. However, this is what I've gleaned from the literature and hopefully some of it is helpful. If you know other than this feel free to correct me.

Some of the literature describes two lactate thresholds, the first one is where you blood level of lactate is elevated but you body is still able to remove lactate as fast as it generates it. The second point is where your body is no longer able to keep up with production. Other literature describes it as one point (this point is similar to the second point in the two point description). Below the first point you can keep up activity for a long time. In between the two points you can sustain that intesity for a couple of hours. Depending on your training and level of intesity you can sustain above the second threshold for minutes to around an hour (I'm guessing this is where we are when we dance full out).

Lactate threshold training serves to push these points further out, meaning you can sustain higher intesity before reaching them. It also serves to increase the concentration of lactate that you body can tolerate. Here are some of the ways to perform lacate threshold training:

1.) Above average effort traing. In running this would be fartleks or intervals.
2.) Lower intesity, longer timer. If you were training for a 10k you would run 15k at a slightly slower time than your race pace.

There are other types of training that might be useful depending on your personal needs: strength training, VO2 max, and general endurance training.

[Chris Stratton]

these computerized analyses must exist somewhere... i wonder where i could find one.

Sure, just qualify for the Olympic track & field team and they'll do it for you.

[Chiron]

i wish there were a way to plug myself into a computer and analyze exactly the nature of the the deficiencies, with the output being the exact necessary plan to remediate.

these computerized analyses must exist somewhere... i wonder where i could find one.

There are some tests out there for heart rate, VO2 max, lactate threshold tests to help you improve training for endurance events. Probably throw in some traditional strength and flexibilty tests and you can get a decent picture of your overall physical condition. Though you probably want a trainer w/ some background in dance to help you interpret and use those results.

[NielsenE]

The other thing to watch out for, at competitions, I see about half of the competitors doing a good job of warming up, but almost no one seems to worry about cooling down. And withoutout the cooldown, you're not being efficient about getting waste products out of the muscles.

Oooh... fartlek-inspired training in dance.... that would be cool. Something like slightly below competition-level rounds with every fourth dance done full out. Repeat for 30-45 minutes....

[Warren J. Dew]

Unless I'm misunderstanding the situation, the aerobic process is not necessarily able to completely take over for the anaerobic one after two minutes. It takes a lot of the load, and that's what lets you continue for a long time. At a sustainable pace it would be taking all of the load. But if you are really pushing yourself, you are asking more than it can deliver and some anaerobic process will be going on as well. And that - either buildup of lactate or depletion of glycogen through this less efficient process - is what does you in.

Your reading is basically correct, and it applies to the period before two minutes as well as afterwards. I think the way the wikipedia quote mentions the thirty second and two minute times is a bit misleading; both aerobic and anaerobic glycolysis kick in well before two minutes. A more accurate reading of the actual sources for the article would be that anaerobic levels of effort can't be sustained for more than two minutes. The talk page for the article lists a more accurate, if less comprehensible, earlier version of the passage, and the passage has since been clarified.

The goal of aerobic training would be to increase the capacity to get oxygen into muscle cells. But are there other capacities that can be increased as well? Can we increase our lactate tolerance? Can we persuade our muscles to store more glycogen? Or is all of the gain in reducing the need to use the anaerobic pathway by increasing the capacity of the aerobic one?

You can temporarily increase the stored glycogen by carbohydrate loading. While this can be effective, it has some negative side effects, so I'd recommend being careful about the more serious forms of it - that is, the ones that involve preliminary periods of glycogen depletion.

Samina, of the three forms of metabolism being discussed, my present opinion is that ballroom dance best utilizes only the anaerobic creatine path and aerobic glycolysis, largely avoiding anaerobic glycolysis.

Maximal aerobic rates are highly trainable. My sister in law, who is going to Olympic trials next month, considers running 3 miles in 15 minutes to be a light aerobic workout; for me, running at that speed would be well into my anaerobic range, and I'd probably collapse after a minute or so. Heck, one mile in 15 minutes might qualify as aerobic exercise for me right now. Somewhere in between is the shape I was in when I got on an exercise bike and got my heart rate up to the 120-150 range for 15 minutes a day.

If you are finding your aerobic workouts easy, you might want to consider stepping up their intensity a bit - but all the normal caveats apply about checking with a doctor first and such.

[Kitty]

Please note that there is neither lactic acid nor pyruvic acid in our body. These compounds can't exist in acid forms in physiological pH. They only exist as lactate and pyruvate, respectively (look for ther dissociation constants). IMHO, we are straying into a wrong area too much. Leave biochemistry to me and you nice people focuss on dancing. I wrote a book about NAD and NADP, and ATP synthesis. The book's name is "Pyridine Nucleotide Coenzymes" and my publisher was Academic Press, NY.

it seems that the fact that these acids exist as salts and not acids is not relevant to the point Warren was trying to make.

for example any biochem book will say that CO2 generated in muscles is also converted into an acid, the bicarbonate,
which of course exists in the dissociated form at that pH..

functionally,
all of these dissociated acids donate H+ to hemoglobin, stabilizing the deoxy form and therefore helping it release more oxygen where it is needed.
(explanation: if hemoglobin would only bind oxygen, it would not be effective in bringing it to the tissues where it is needed. Hemoglobin must be able therefore to bind AND RELEASE oxygen. the difference in affinity hemoglobin has for oxygen at different pH contributes to the mechanism of binding oxygen in the lungs (where pH is higher) and releasing it in the capillaries where the pH is lower due to presence of all of the above acids, including bicarbonate and lactic acid.)

what happens to lactate and pyruvate etc is another story, and i think is the point that Warren was trying to discuss...

[Standarddancer]

Quick question. I seem to find that many dancers, pro and am get sick after a competition. Is it because of the stress of the comp or is it some germ that manages to get passed around because of the enclosed enviroment?
Thanks! :D
Tinydancergirl

probably both, maybe stress is the dominant reason.

[samina]

Oooh... fartlek-inspired training in dance.... that would be cool. Something like slightly below competition-level rounds with every fourth dance done full out. Repeat for 30-45 minutes....

yep, this is what i've been thinking about. and as i understand it, that involves anaeobic conditioning rather than aerobic.

[NielsenE]

not really... your body just can't do sustained anaerobic activities...

A fartlek in running is normally a combination of a moderate pace or LSD (Long Slow Distance, not the other type) and then surging activities. So for instance, doing a 45 minute run/jog with a sprint, or high knees, or some other intensity raising variant, for 30-90 seconds, before returning to the base state. This sprint portion will probably involve the anareobic pathway, but that's not really the point of the exercise.

The primary points, IMO
a) playing with the bodies ability to accommodate surges in activity level when already fatigued
b) keeping long workouts interesting

In some ways rounds, might already be fartlek like -- the interspersed fast/slow dance order might almost fill the same role... Though I don't think many people could sustain normal round intensity for 45 minutes. Hence the thought to slightly scale back the intensity and just surrge to full intensity every few dances

[samina]

my understanding is that fartlek training increases the lactate threshold which... increases the ability to do sustained anaerobic activities.

just what i need. :)

[Joe]

so, CC, i have an energy question for you...

i started drinking ionized, alkalized water about a month ago and quite unexpectedly *immediately* noticed a huge surge in available energy. felt like my body was suddenly running on three times the amount of oxygen as usual. i also read somewhere that alkalizing the body with this kind of water can help the body metabolize lactic acid (or rather, lactate, it seems...) more efficiently, without the immobilizing effects.

what do you make of this?
Placebo effect? :D

[SwingWaltz]

You get sick from kissing too many people, on the cheek of course.

[samina]

You get sick from kissing too many people, on the cheek of course.

Lots of kissing is my recipe for staying healthy...;)