Follower's step size [Archive]

BlueSkies

06-09-2008, 10:03 AM

bordertangoman

06-09-2008, 11:16 AM

Hi all,

I wondered if I might get your advice / opinions about the factors that determine the size of a follower's steps. I've recently been learning some walking from inside to outside, in cross system and while leading "straight" back ochos, all in a close embrace. What I've noticed is that when dancing with some ladies, there is plenty of room for my feet to pass infront of hers, and with others there doesn't seem to be space to achieve these steps in a way that flows smoothly.

This started me looking at step size in general, and I noticed things like when leading say a sideways cut step, some followers shoot their leg out to full extension and others allow a far smaller move of their leg. Though I can't see it so easily I feel this is the same with a standard follower's backstep.

Now I know there are factors such as the lady's height / leg length to consider, the embrace and extent to which the axis is shared (I'm dancing a fairly upright salon style so each on our own axis), and the level of energy in the lead I give - such that I should be able to lead small steps and large steps.

Aside from the above, what factors are involved? Are there ways that I can help to increase space for footwork without compromising the embrace? Is there a right answer to the extent to which the follower will / should extend her leg when the step is invited?

I find that with the same energy in the lead, same embrace and similar height partners, in some cases I seem to have plenty of room to step, with others I seem to be kicking her feet at times and clearly that's something I'd rather avoid!

I'm quite a new leader so open to any and all advice!

Cheers!
Blue

a lump of sugar in your left hand helps with acheiving longer follower steps.

Its a case of how she responds to your lead and if its a practica -where you can stop and refine it or a milonga where you've got to rely on intention and if she don't follow she don't follow.

Having danced with a good jive dancer who just wouldn't take long steps after a forward ocho. It gets very frustrating. But if they are dancing a "pattern" IE something that is fixed in their lead then it can be changed, but not always on the dance floor.

Sometimes dancing slow works to get a follower out of her box.

Steve Pastor

06-09-2008, 11:22 AM

"I've recently been learning some walking from inside to outside, in cross system and while leading "straight" back ochos, all in a close embrace."

Rotation of the torso by both partners is extrememly important in being able to do this well. Hips remain perpendicular to the "line of dance", while each partner keeps their upper bodies parallel with the rotation of the upper body.
Ochos involve a twisting of the hips, while the upper bodies remain parallel.

"I'm dancing a fairly upright salon style so each on our own axis"
This style of "close embrace" results in the feet being closer together than the apilado style.

The woman should endeavor to take steps that keep her center an almost constant distance from your center. This is true whether "simply walking" or steps that involve motion to the side.

"when leading say a sideways cut step, some followers shoot their leg out to full extension"
It seems that "big steps" are something some women aspire to. If her step is bigger than the one you've led, it comes at the expense of "the connection". Of course, if if she is "on her own axis", she is likely to pay more attention to her own step than maintaining any "shared axis", however weak it may be.

If you are kicking the woman's feet, it could be because you are taking "normal walking steps" in which the leg/foot is moved out ahead of the center, rather than "normal tango walking steps" where you move your center first. Moving your center first begins the woman's movement of her foot, as her center moves backwards.
It can be a fairly subtle thing, that becomes very apparent in the apilado style.
(Course, it could be your partners, but at this stage, you need to make sure that you learn your part extremely well before looking at your partner for any problems she might have.)

Peaches

06-09-2008, 11:41 AM

As others have said, it could be any number of things.

You could be leading incorrectly, or vaguely, and she's figuring things out as best she can. You might not realize what size steps you're asking for.

You could be walking incorrectly. She could be walking incorrectly.

Timing could be off.

She might not know how to read leads for various sized steps, and be automatically assuming that she's supposed to take huge steps. Could be she's on auto-pilot from something learned in a class somewhere.

It takes time, on both parts, to know how to do it well. Without dancing with you, or seeing what's going on, I've got no idea.

Edit to add: She should be extening her leg to take as big of a step as you've led her to take. With probably very limited exceptions, which I can't think of right now.

Zoopsia59

06-09-2008, 12:59 PM

Hi all,

I wondered if I might get your advice / opinions about the factors that determine the size of a follower's steps. I've recently been learning some walking from inside to outside, in cross system and while leading "straight" back ochos, all in a close embrace. What I've noticed is that when dancing with some ladies, there is plenty of room for my feet to pass infront of hers, and with others there doesn't seem to be space to achieve these steps in a way that flows smoothly.

This started me looking at step size in general, and I noticed things like when leading say a sideways cut step, some followers shoot their leg out to full extension and others allow a far smaller move of their leg. Though I can't see it so easily I feel this is the same with a standard follower's backstep.

Now I know there are factors such as the lady's height / leg length to consider, the embrace and extent to which the axis is shared (I'm dancing a fairly upright salon style so each on our own axis), and the level of energy in the lead I give - such that I should be able to lead small steps and large steps.

Aside from the above, what factors are involved? Are there ways that I can help to increase space for footwork without compromising the embrace? Is there a right answer to the extent to which the follower will / should extend her leg when the step is invited?

I find that with the same energy in the lead, same embrace and similar height partners, in some cases I seem to have plenty of room to step, with others I seem to be kicking her feet at times and clearly that's something I'd rather avoid!

I'm quite a new leader so open to any and all advice!

Cheers!
Blue

This reminds me of a discussion we were having on another thread about reaching and extending (for the follower) Does anyone remember where that was to direct the poster to that part of the other thread?

On another note... it seems to me that very few people learned to doclose embrace "straight line" ochos. Almost no one in my area does ochos this way except my partner and I. When I try to lead them this way (granted, I'm not a great leader yet) the women try to do a figure 8 instead of traveling even though I'm moving forward. They think "OCHO!" and instead of following me they do ochos by the script they learned from which is a figure 8 in place (with a lot of turning). Even if they don't stick to one spot to accomplish a figure 8, they still over rotate the move while trying to travel. Meanwhile, I learned to follow close-embrace linear ochos first, so they feel quite normal to me on the extremely rare occasion that someone other than my partner leads them.

Its possible that it works for you with some partners and not others because so few followers ever did them this way. They try to impose a figure 8 from a lead that won't allow for it. That would result in them taking small steps as well as being in your way. To be honest, A LOT of followers dont' actually know how to follow... they know how to recognize the lead for something and then do it. If they dont' recognize it they either draw on the bags of tricks they DO know, or they flounder about haphazardly.

Peaches

06-09-2008, 01:29 PM

kieronneedscake

06-09-2008, 01:45 PM

Straight line ochos are a really really shallow turn, and the leader is almost walking directly forward. In my experience this kind of walk seems to be a bit side to side, making the leader look somewhat like he's skiing up hill. I don't like them unless they're done with great ease and perhaps on the way to something else.

I hypothesise that the partners that leave you with no space to step into are the ones who do not mobilise their torsos. You would have to do twice the torsion to get the same amount of space, and that's almost impossible for a leader to do without zigzagging all over the place. Obviously you can't be doing this in a decent close embrace, although a certain amount of slide is beneficial.

Otherwise they are not reading your lead, and you need to add a bit more build-up to your steps to make them more clear. If there is more contrast between your short and long steps, this will help followers know which is which.

06-09-2008, 02:35 PM

Well, some ladies just don't step out enough. A common problem I've seen is the ladies will bend at the knee and step, rather than reach back with their thigh. The leads have no place to go when this happens. So, it could be a problem with some follows.

As a lead, make sure you are not sometimes leaning backwards. When the lead is holding me in a tight embrace and he is leaning back, I can barely step back at all because he is pulling me forwards, almost on top of him.

Zoopsia59

06-09-2008, 02:54 PM

Could you, please, explain what you mean by close embrace "straight line" ochos.

I'm assuming that by a "figure 8 ocho" you mean ones with a full, 180 degree pivot after each step? Or close to it.

Edit to add: Whenever these kinds of things come up on D-F I always end up so paranoid that I do some of these hated follower problems. :D

Oh no! No need to get paranoid.

Straight line ochos are a bit odd because even the people who do them like Tete and Sylvia don't explain them the way they actually DO them, which I find baffling. In both the video I have of them AND the workshop I attended with them, Sylvia talks about rotating from the waist and in breaking it down, shows it that way, but then doesn't do that when she actually does the move while dancing. Even on the video.

As I was taught them by my teacher who got it from Daniel Trenner and Rebecca Shulman, who got it from Tete....

Most people do ochos with an open or at least relaxed embrace so that the pattern traced on the floor by the woman is a figure 8. The pivot is more important than the travel down line of dance. Her body rotates so that her hips are perpendicular to the man's front plane while she attempts to keep her chest as parrallel as is comfortable (depending on the flexibility she has in isolating her upper and lower body)

For straight line ochos, which I guess I should more accurately call "serpentine", there is no closing of the 8. It creates a pattern like an S curve traveling down the floor. There is far less rotation of the hips because you are in close embrace and there is no opening of the closed position.

The S shape is not attained by a lot rotation in her lower body. It is achieved by her simply reaching back and he walks in a forward diagonal step which causes her foot to actually land diagonally behind her. The amount of diagonal is determined by the leader. He places her. He can make it really dramatic or do it so straight its not really an ocho, but just a backwards walk. If he doesn't collect between steps, it will not only be harder, but he'll look like a duck trying to avoid stepping on her. I think its hard for leaders to do this move with grace and style.

A variation that my partner does is, instead of walking forward with a diagonal to the outside, he crosses. Uh... (try again) Instead of say, stepping out on his left foot diagonally forward to his left (while I do an ocho to my right with my left foot being the free foot) he would step with his RIGHT across to the same place as above while I do the same ocho as above. It makes an interesting look but its much harder for the leader.

And, as I said, Sylvia "teaches" her part by rotating her hips, but doesn't actually rotate them at all when she dances it. Her hips stay parallel with her shoulders and his, and her step becomes diagonal behind her hips rather than straight backwards from the plane of her hips.

Its actually very easy to demonstrate and hard to describe in writing. But maybe that's just my weakness in writing a visual descriptive.

Zoopsia59

06-09-2008, 02:59 PM

You would have to do twice the torsion to get the same amount of space, and that's almost impossible for a leader to do without zigzagging all over the place. Obviously you can't be doing this in a decent close embrace, although a certain amount of slide is beneficial..

I don't think I agree with this. As I was taught them, there is almost no torsion at all (I assume you mean in the waist isolating the hips from the chest) although there is a diagonal zig-zag happening. But the amount of diagonal can easily be altered based on the available space, as can the length of the stride down line of dance.

kieronneedscake

06-09-2008, 03:27 PM

I don't think I agree with this. As I was taught them, there is almost no torsion at all (I assume you mean in the waist isolating the hips from the chest) although there is a diagonal zig-zag happening. But the amount of diagonal can easily be altered based on the available space, as can the length of the stride down line of dance.

I'll have another run at it, as you're right. This should be possible with minimal rotation. I was associating my similar difficulties in getting step length with similar steps, such as walking outside, or being on the same feet instead of opposite. If the follower does not adjust upper body and embrace AT ALL to where the leader is moving, it becomes very tricky. I've lost count of the times I've had relatively beginner followers almost at 90 degrees to me, shoulders and everything. I have a whole raft of bad habits I'm trying to unlearn from lazy pivoting followers.

Peaches

06-09-2008, 03:37 PM

Oh no! No need to get paranoid.

Straight line ochos are a bit odd because even the people who do them like Tete and Sylvia don't explain them the way they actually DO them, which I find baffling. In both the video I have of them AND the workshop I attended with them, Sylvia talks about rotating from the waist and in breaking it down, shows it that way, but then doesn't do that when she actually does the move while dancing. Even on the video.

As I was taught them by my teacher who got it from Daniel Trenner and Rebecca Shulman, who got it from Tete....

Most people do ochos with an open or at least relaxed embrace so that the pattern traced on the floor by the woman is a figure 8. The pivot is more important than the travel down line of dance. Her body rotates so that her hips are perpendicular to the man's front plane while she attempts to keep her chest as parrallel as is comfortable (depending on the flexibility she has in isolating her upper and lower body)

For straight line ochos, which I guess I should more accurately call "serpentine", there is no closing of the 8. It creates a pattern like an S curve traveling down the floor. There is far less rotation of the hips because you are in close embrace and there is no opening of the closed position.

The S shape is not attained by a lot rotation in her lower body. It is achieved by her simply reaching back and he walks in a forward diagonal step which causes her foot to actually land diagonally behind her. The amount of diagonal is determined by the leader. He places her. He can make it really dramatic or do it so straight its not really an ocho, but just a backwards walk. If he doesn't collect between steps, it will not only be harder, but he'll look like a duck trying to avoid stepping on her. I think its hard for leaders to do this move with grace and style.

A variation that my partner does is, instead of walking forward with a diagonal to the outside, he crosses. Uh... (try again) Instead of say, stepping out on his left foot diagonally forward to his left (while I do an ocho to my right with my left foot being the free foot) he would step with his RIGHT across to the same place as above while I do the same ocho as above. It makes an interesting look but its much harder for the leader.

And, as I said, Sylvia "teaches" her part by rotating her hips, but doesn't actually rotate them at all when she dances it. Her hips stay parallel with her shoulders and his, and her step becomes diagonal behind her hips rather than straight backwards from the plane of her hips.

Its actually very easy to demonstrate and hard to describe in writing. But maybe that's just my weakness in writing a visual descriptive.Aha! OK. What you're talking about is (I think) what I learned as "back crossed ochos" (as opposed to pivoting ochos). Little to no pivot of the standing foot, stepping foot reaches back and behind the standing leg, "sinking the hip" of the moving leg. Got it. Thank you.

(Sorry for hijacking. Back to the regularly scheduled discussion. :D)

Steve Pastor

06-09-2008, 03:48 PM

Another take...
Assume the "crossed position".

Now, move your weight TOTALLY back and forth between your two feet.
The crossed leg is straightened when you put all of your weight on it.
I don't know about all of you, but I would be willing to bet that the former weight bearing foot will move back from one to several inches when you do this.

You must put ALL of your weight on the crossed foot to feel this, and your heel must touch the floor. If you dance tip toe style, you won't feel it.

Note the position of your now unweighted foot.
Now notice how far you have to move it backwards in order to move that foot behind the now weighted foot.
Move it over to assume a normal, standing position with your feet parallel.
Now move it back behind the weighted foot, and put weight on it.

With the proper connection, this type of movement can be led without either partner moving from where they are standing. Add a little forward movement by the leader, and you have an "in line ocho".
Note, too, that lateral movement is limited to the width of the woman's foot, a distance that can easily be accomodated by movement in the torso.

Zoopsia59

06-09-2008, 03:57 PM

Note, too, that lateral movement is limited to the width of the woman's foot,.

Why?

I guess I'm not understanding what you are saying, but why would lateral movement be limited? It can be as far to the side as the leader wishes based on the usual things like the relative length of the couple's legs.

Steve Pastor

06-09-2008, 04:32 PM

The movement I describe is done without a partner.
It is offered as a way to understand the possibilities: big steps, little steps.
Followers should understand what is possible, so that if a leader asks them to "walk backwards doing a very shallow ocho", they won't take a big step to the side because that's all they know how to do.
If the leader begins leading an ocho, and reverses the motion, expecting the woman's foot/leg to "fall in" beside her weighted foot in a position the is essentially the same as being in "the crossed position", they should know that it is possible to do that, and not have to think/say "I don't know what you want me to do".

bastet

06-09-2008, 09:03 PM

Oh no! No need to get paranoid.

Straight line ochos are a bit odd because even the people who do them like Tete and Sylvia don't explain them the way they actually DO them, which I find baffling. In both the video I have of them AND the workshop I attended with them, Sylvia talks about rotating from the waist and in breaking it down, shows it that way, but then doesn't do that when she actually does the move while dancing. Even on the video.

As I was taught them by my teacher who got it from Daniel Trenner and Rebecca Shulman, who got it from Tete....

Most people do ochos with an open or at least relaxed embrace so that the pattern traced on the floor by the woman is a figure 8. The pivot is more important than the travel down line of dance. Her body rotates so that her hips are perpendicular to the man's front plane while she attempts to keep her chest as parrallel as is comfortable (depending on the flexibility she has in isolating her upper and lower body)

For straight line ochos, which I guess I should more accurately call "serpentine", there is no closing of the 8. It creates a pattern like an S curve traveling down the floor. There is far less rotation of the hips because you are in close embrace and there is no opening of the closed position.

The S shape is not attained by a lot rotation in her lower body. It is achieved by her simply reaching back and he walks in a forward diagonal step which causes her foot to actually land diagonally behind her. The amount of diagonal is determined by the leader. He places her. He can make it really dramatic or do it so straight its not really an ocho, but just a backwards walk. If he doesn't collect between steps, it will not only be harder, but he'll look like a duck trying to avoid stepping on her. I think its hard for leaders to do this move with grace and style.

A variation that my partner does is, instead of walking forward with a diagonal to the outside, he crosses. Uh... (try again) Instead of say, stepping out on his left foot diagonally forward to his left (while I do an ocho to my right with my left foot being the free foot) he would step with his RIGHT across to the same place as above while I do the same ocho as above. It makes an interesting look but its much harder for the leader.

And, as I said, Sylvia "teaches" her part by rotating her hips, but doesn't actually rotate them at all when she dances it. Her hips stay parallel with her shoulders and his, and her step becomes diagonal behind her hips rather than straight backwards from the plane of her hips.

Its actually very easy to demonstrate and hard to describe in writing. But maybe that's just my weakness in writing a visual descriptive.

I noticed this also with Tete and Silvia- little rolling in the embrace or dissociation while dancing, but sometimes explaining something they teach other than what they dance.

I like straight line ochos myself. They are fun. Almost no one in my area except my other half leads them. When people see us doing them they think I am moving my legs in a diagonal behind me and I always have to explain that that is coming from how my other half is leading, not from me.

Peaches

06-09-2008, 09:07 PM

I like straight line ochos myself. They are fun. Almost no one in my area except my other half leads them. When people see us doing them they think I am moving my legs in a diagonal behind me and I always have to explain that that is coming from how my other half is leading, not from me.Funny that you'd have to explain that to other dancers, who should know that little happens without a lead's imput.

Love cross-back ochos myself. Once I got the hang of them. They feel so sexy.

Too bad basically no-one around here leads them, except my teacher and other teachers (who don't ask me).

Angel HI

06-09-2008, 11:52 PM

So sorry that I have been away. I would have enjoyed being in on the beginning of this thread. After reading, I am in complete agreement with Zoop's posts. I actually lead these types of ochos frequently.

From a varying light, many...many years ago, Rudolfo Dinzel taught me that the term ocho is probably a misnomer, as it doesn't mean 8, necessarily. To him, it more correctly meant swivel; that the amount of swivel could be as minimal as to only allow the passing of a foot (what has been described here as a cross-back step), or as great as a complete circle and return, thus forming an actual 8. For the past 20 years, I have been dancing/teaching (not as long) ochos as swivels.

Re the length of the steps, yes, Zoops, I couldn't find that thread either. We were just dsicussing that. The answer was, that a follow would never be "in error" if she were to; remain forward over the arches of the feet, reach with all the leg, point the toe, not place until placed, focus in the middle of each step, and collect onto a relaxed leg.

However, as has been posted, unless the lead is correct, the ultimate movement can not be achieved.

Heather2007

06-10-2008, 04:55 AM

I'll attempt to answer this WITHOUT blinding you with foliage and science.

Hi all,

I wondered if I might get your advice / opinions about the factors that determine the size of a follower's steps. I've recently been learning some walking from inside to outside, in cross system and while leading "straight" back ochos, all in a close embrace. What I've noticed is that when dancing with some ladies, there is plenty of room for my feet to pass infront of hers, and with others there doesn't seem to be space to achieve these steps in a way that flows smoothly.

The length of a woman's steps is dependent upon two things. (1) Your lead. (2) Her stance.

Your Leading: ensure that there is energy and drive in your leading. You want her to step wide or long then "drive" her there. A short knudge will get her there but only with a small step, a long/direct/almost forceful drive will have her stepping long and wide. Practice several times in class just stepping, back/foward/side - by yourself and with a partner. Use the chest-to-chest-no-hands approach too. Hard, but will give you a good idea of how much energy you are using/how much more you need to employ.

Her Stance can almost always determine the length of her step and note HAS NOTHING WHATSOEVER TO DO WITH HER HEIGHT OR LEG LENGTH (which sounds like a lame excuse of a Leader for when he has blown whatever it was he was trying to lead. Note: I lead (as well as follow) and have lead perfectly women from heights all weights all leg lengths). If the Follower adopts (as I always do when following) a milonguera position that is, as she leans her chest into the man her legs are positioned way, way back behind her (tail behind the heart) and with a slight bend in the knees and then with the driving force that she is feeling from the Leader her strides will then be long and wide. (Note: fast milonga dancing often times require short/staccato'ish steps to look and feel effective with minimum-almost-non-existent patterns being executed).

Get your teacher to demonstrate this on you. When you yourself can feel this driving feeling being placed upon you then you will know what it is you need to give to your Follower. I made heaps of mistakes like this when I started out leading some years back and (male teachers) would always jump at the chance of climbing into my arms and showing me how it was meant to be done. That I'm a woman probably had something to do with their eagerness, but do, do , do ask them to lead you into a move that you are strugging to lead yourself.

I hope that helps.

bordertangoman

06-10-2008, 05:48 AM

I'll attempt to answer this WITHOUT blinding you with foliage and science.

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The length of a woman's steps is dependent upon two things. (1) Your lead. (2) Her stance.

Your Leading: ensure that there is energy and drive in your leading. You want her to step wide or long then "drive" her there. A short knudge will get her there but only with a small step, a long/direct/almost forceful drive will have her stepping long and wide. Practice several times in class just stepping, back/foward/side - by yourself and with a partner. Use the chest-to-chest-no-hands approach too. Hard, but will give you a good idea of how much energy you are using/how much more you need to employ.

Her Stance can almost always determine the length of her step and note HAS NOTHING WHATSOEVER TO DO WITH HER HEIGHT OR LEG LENGTH (which sounds like a lame excuse of a Leader for when he has blown whatever it was he was trying to lead. Note: I lead (as well as follow) and have lead perfectly women from heights all weights all leg lengths). If the Follower adopts (as I always do when following) a milonguera position that is, as she leans her chest into the man her legs are positioned way, way back behind her (tail behind the heart) and with a slight bend in the knees and then with the driving force that she is feeling from the Leader her strides will then be long and wide. (Note: fast milonga dancing often times require short/staccato'ish steps to look and feel effective with minimum-almost-non-existent patterns being executed).

Get your teacher to demonstrate this on you. When you yourself can feel this driving feeling being placed upon you then you will know what it is you need to give to your Follower. I made heaps of mistakes like this when I started out leading some years back and (male teachers) would always jump at the chance of climbing into my arms and showing me how it was meant to be done. That I'm a woman probably had something to do with their eagerness, but do, do , do ask them to lead you into a move that you are strugging to lead yourself.

.

In a nutshell; Exactement! et voila!

BlueSkies

06-10-2008, 09:53 AM

Hi everyone,

Thank you all for your very helpful and constructive advice, loads for me to take away! Lots of things that you have written make sense both in terms of my lead and in terms of what to expect from different followers.

Steve, thank you for "normal walking steps" versus "tango walking steps" - as probably every new leader, I know exactly what you mean, I still at times have to remember to switch the lead on, and will remember to ask myself that first and foremost... :-)

Me, thank you for the point about some ladies not reaching back with the thigh, I think I may be experiencing that in some cases, and also for your point about a restrictive embrace, this brought a vivid recollection of a teacher recently saying we must be cautious not to be saying "go" with the lead and "stop" with the embrace...

For all who contributed to the discussion of the straight line / cross-back ochos, great to hear your opinions of these, that was an added bonus to the thread. Zoopsia, you have captured exactly what I meant by this. Personally I love leading these and building variations on these. Where I dance they are becoming quite well known as they have been taught in many of the local lessons recently.

Angel, thank you for the clear summary of that previous thread, that's really useful.

Heather, thanks for the great round up and valuable practise suggestions. I've been fortunate to be led by several experienced female teachers... it's often a humbling experience, I aspire to the clarity and energy of their lead.

What a brilliant response, thanks again to all!

Blue

Zoopsia59

06-10-2008, 10:06 AM

When people see us doing them they think I am moving my legs in a diagonal behind me and I always have to explain that that is coming from how my other half is leading, not from me.

Exactly.

The other typical reaction we get is that we are doing it wrong.

One just-barely-past-beginner leader actually tried to tell my partner (who teaches) that if he'd just open the embrace somewhat, I'd be able to pivot and rotate my hips the way I'm "supposed" to. That by holding me close, he was preventing me from doing my step correctly....

Sigh....

Peaches

06-10-2008, 10:17 AM

Ha! OMG, that's awesome.

And you call yourselves teachers, when you can't even properly lead an ocho! ;)

jhpark

06-10-2008, 10:37 AM

*shrug* i personally prefer ochos where there is a bit of opening up instead of crossing behind, but i realize there are strange people who don't dance tango the same way i do ;)

bordertangoman

06-10-2008, 10:40 AM

Exactly.

The other typical reaction we get is that we are doing it wrong.

One just-barely-past-beginner leader actually tried to tell my partner (who teaches) that if he'd just open the embrace somewhat, I'd be able to pivot and rotate my hips the way I'm "supposed" to. That by holding me close, he was preventing me from doing my step correctly....

Sigh....

I get the opposite effect to this; i give the follower plenty of room to ocho and what does she do? takes another step! DOH! can't win :sighs:

Angel HI

06-11-2008, 01:31 AM

Great post, Heather! http://www.dance-forums.com/showpost.php?p=564622&postcount=18 Et, vous avez causé BTM pour parler français. Hou là !

opendoor

06-11-2008, 02:05 AM

Dear list,
there´s another aspect: a heavy downward leading is the code for long steps, a slight upwards leading results in short quick steps, especially for double temps.

Greetings from Hamburg

Peaches

06-11-2008, 07:03 AM

Really? Do others find this to be the case?

Generally, I associate both downward and upwards leading with "stationary" movements, such as a cunita (downward) or a volcada (upward). For long steps, what I can mostly think of feeling is very firm grounding, a strong "push," and very clear intention. For short/quick steps...I don't know how to describe it, but it's like I can feel a difference in how the guy is using his feet/ankles/lower legs, and the tension in his body.

Heather2007

06-11-2008, 07:30 AM

Great post, Heather! http://www.dance-forums.com/showpost.php?p=564622&postcount=18 Et, vous avez causé BTM pour parler français. Hou là !

Oui, j'ai remarque ::p ((Ou peut-être le "franglais" comme nous disons ici)) :ladiesma:

bordertangoman

06-11-2008, 07:37 AM

Steve Pastor

06-11-2008, 10:45 AM

"hip extension combined with 5 degrees of pelvic rotation provides a smooth progression and facilitates an increased step length."
"The continuing backward rotation of the pelvis effectively lengthens the trailing limb and counteracts hip flexion."

"Rapid knee extension, a passive event created by momentum, moves the knee from 60 to 30 degrees of flexion. Half of the knee extension needed for subsequent step length is achieved."
"In the second half of terminal swing, the quadriceps extend the knee concentrically in a shortening contraction to facilitate full knee extension, which, assisted by pelvic rotation, accomplishes a full step length."

http://www.oandp.org/jpo/library/1997_02_049.asp

Hip flexion, extension of the knee...
What does it all mean?

Angel HI

06-11-2008, 11:04 AM

Sometimes, Steve, you crack me up. :)

Ampster

06-11-2008, 11:23 AM

"
http://www.oandp.org/jpo/library/1997_02_049.asp

Hip flexion, extension of the knee...
What does it all mean?

:shock: Lol, I should bring a protractor the next time I go to a milonga. :rolleyes:

Steve Pastor

06-11-2008, 11:24 AM

Hey, Angel, that's my job!

No, seriously, when we look at information that has been developed by people who have very seriously looked at how people walk, I think there is something to be learned.

What I am hoping at this point, is that someone other than myself will think about what I have provided, and apply it to Peaches skepticism regarding opendoor's post.

dchester

06-11-2008, 11:35 AM

Zoopsia59

06-11-2008, 11:36 AM

someone other than myself will think about what I have provided, and apply it to Peaches skepticism regarding opendoor's post.

Nope... You're going to have to do it yourself.:cool:

Peaches

06-11-2008, 12:00 PM

What I am hoping at this point, is that someone other than myself will think about what I have provided, and apply it to Peaches skepticism regarding opendoor's post.What the...???

What in blazes does what you wrote and/or linked to have to do with opendoor's post, or my reaction to it? I wasn't debating mechanics of movement, and I wasn't even necessarily disagreeing with opendoor. My point was only that what he mentioned isn't what I think of feeling from the lead. Which isn't to say that I'm right and he's wrong--very possibly there are things other people could point out which would go against what I said, things I haven't thought about, intricacies of leading of which I am unaware. Which is why I started off by asking if other people noticed the same thing or not.

What's your point?

Steve Pastor

06-11-2008, 12:07 PM

It looks to me like you can take a longer step by letting your hip "go out" and/or using your quardrceps to extend your lower leg/foot farther.

Peaches

06-11-2008, 12:13 PM

What do you mean by "go out?"

...and I still don't understand why it was directed at me, or my post in response to Opendoor's...

Gssh

06-11-2008, 12:32 PM

Dear list,
there´s another aspect: a heavy downward leading is the code for long steps, a slight upwards leading results in short quick steps, especially for double temps.

Greetings from Hamburg

This is something i am slightly disagreeing with - yes, it is possible to create extension by lowering the frame, but lowering the frame is not "heavy, downward leading" - the leading is still upwards, just from a lower starting point. When walking the energy should always be upwards, and the step-length by is determined by the quality of the the impulse. Note that if you look at the posture salon is much "higher" than milonguero, but that they take on average much longer steps. This is especially noticable in milonga which most people dance with bent knees - which in theory allows very long steps by fully extending the leg on the step.

This idea that there is ever downward energy is imho quite dangerous. The standard move where i see this abused is when a leader tries to create an extension in the half ocho preceding a step-over to create this nice "swoop". Instead of lowering their own frame and asking the follower to "accompany" them, they give the follower downward energy and activly compress her. In some extreme cases you can almost hear her spine cracking.

Gssh

Steve Pastor

06-11-2008, 12:47 PM

"hip extension combined with 5 degrees of pelvic rotation"

Although in general we don't use our hips in AT, I'm sure that when you step, there is some rotation with the standing leg as the pivot point. Especially if you wanted to take a longer step. You let your hip "go out" rather than keeping it back with the weighted foot/leg/hip.
Other words... If hips stay perpendicular to the direction you are stepping, you will take a smaller step than if you let your hip move in the same direction as your step.

Sorry, Peaches, this was not directed at you. But, I took your comment as an opening to discuss "how we step", and whether or not there is a "signal" that indicates a longer step is coming.

I know that there can be, at times, the kind of thing opendoor refers to; that being a "sinking" or "gathering". What opendoor called "downward leading" (I think.)

Biomechanically, that might not be necessary for an individual to take a longer step.

As a partnership, I do not favor the "signal then execute" way of thinking about taking a step, or any movement. I do favor the "one smooth motion" way of thinking about movement.

Peaches

06-11-2008, 01:00 PM

Ah, now it makes more sense. Thank you.

Actually, if I'm on it with my technique, I find that I use my hips an awful lot. I was very surprised to find this a few months ago, when I tweaked a few things and everything felt different. When I walk (backwards, in this case, for now), I feel the hip of my moving leg move in what feels like a circle--up, back, down, forward. It's only by really using my hip that I can use my knees to get a beautiful, feminine walk. Which, btw, isn't anywhere near straight-legged, oddly enough. (Surprise to me!)

Once I felt this motion, it made things said by various teachers make sense. Ney Melo & Jennifer Bratt describe it as a woman getting ready to go out tango dancing and putting on her panty hose. Hard to explain. (But if you ever get the chance, ask Ney to demonstrate. He does it so well, and it's so funny. I was laughing so hard I was almost crying.)

Luis & Daniela don't use that kind of imagery, but instead talked about lengthening and contracting the sides of the abdomen, to lengthen and shorten the distance between ribcage and hip bone, so that a step could be taken while the lady's center doesn't move away from the man.

Edit to add: And, yes, there is some degree of rotation going on. I don't much think about it, but I know it happens. It feels like when I take a step back that I'm opening up that whole side for the man to step into. And it makes for a pretty line, I must admit.

kieronneedscake

06-11-2008, 01:12 PM

Biomechanically, that might not be necessary for an individual to take a longer step.

As a partnership, I do not favor the "signal then execute" way of thinking about taking a step, or any movement. I do favor the "one smooth motion" way of thinking about movement.

A little sinking into the floor prior to bigger steps is a very helpful way of clueing up a follower to impending explosive movement. Otherwise you're just barging the poor lass along.

That same sinking can feel like a gathering of energy or tension, for which the easy release is to take a big step. I like to think of it as delayed gratification

Steve Pastor

06-11-2008, 02:38 PM

"if you look at the posture salon is much "higher" than milonguero, but that they take on average much longer steps"

One note to Gssh's post...
It is entirely possible to take large steps when dancing "milonguero" (which I interpret to mean "apilado" style.
People take small steps when conditions are crowded. They dance closer to each other, too, when conditions are crowded.
That said, it makes sense that you can step farther if the weighted leg is bent. But, again, I've been taught that there is a "flexing" of the knees that is used to bring your weight forward when creating an apilado embrace.
I now get more into the "more flexed knee" attitude (at times) after reading The Art History of Tango, and learning more about the African influences in tango, and canyengue.

Zoopsia59

06-11-2008, 02:39 PM

When I walk (backwards, in this case, for now), I feel the hip of my moving leg move in what feels like a circle--up, back, down, forward. .

I think I'd have to see a demonstration of what you mean by this, because I can't think of any part of a step during which I would think of my hip going UP. (although it might seem to be a consequence of the other hip going DOWN, I would never want to think about lifting my hip unless it was to correct a bad habit of dropping it innapropriately)

opendoor

06-11-2008, 03:01 PM

Hi to everyone,

and I hope you will agree now: doing and showing would be much nicer than talking about it ...

;-)

Ampster

06-11-2008, 03:12 PM

Hi to everyone,

and I hope you will agree now: doing and showing would be much nicer than talking about it ...

;-)

I agree. Do you have a video?

Peaches

06-11-2008, 03:24 PM

Hi to everyone,

and I hope you will agree now: doing and showing would be much nicer than talking about it ...

;-)Absolutely! We need to have a D-F workshop/practica where we could meet-n-greet and actually show/tell/see/feel what all the words translate into.

Zoopsia59

06-11-2008, 03:43 PM

Absolutely! We need to have a D-F workshop/practica where we could meet-n-greet and actually show/tell/see/feel what all the words translate into.

Yes, but where?

Peaches

06-11-2008, 03:52 PM

I vote for Hawaii. There's one D-F'er there, and it's a good excuse! :D

Ampster

06-11-2008, 03:59 PM

I vote for Seattle! It's June and it's 52°f and currently snowing in the mountain passes. :rolleyes:

opendoor

06-11-2008, 04:03 PM

.... I´m a Tango Dancer, so I am out of money ....

but, Hawaii is great, lets say 2011 ? TransAtlantic-TransPacific-Milonga?

Peaches

06-11-2008, 04:07 PM

I can't wait three years. I suggest 2009. It can be bi-annual. 2011 can be in Seattle, Ampster.

(Er...you think maybe one of us should notify Angel that we'll all be turning up on his doorstep, so to speak? ... I call not it.)

Angel HI

06-12-2008, 12:47 AM

Gssh, I liked this post http://www.dance-forums.com/showpost.php?p=565273&postcount=40 .

And Peaches, your post http://www.dance-forums.com/showpost.php?p=565291&postcount=42 speaks to what we were discussing a little while ago; remember? Though I agree with Zoops' ?? re the hip up thing, you are correct in the movement. Add to it now, an extension to a straight leg when moving, focusing in the middle when on both feet, and the risidual flex of the knees when the feet pass (or come together). Voila!!

And, Oh yes! My vote is for HI. Gee, ...wonder why? :rolleyes:

Heather2007

06-12-2008, 03:50 AM

Dear list,
there´s another aspect: a heavy downward leading is the code for long steps, a slight upwards leading results in short quick steps, especially for double temps.

Perhaps/maybe/should be - BUT - dependent upon the creative choreography of the Lead that "Code" could mean something different entirely.

Generally, I associate both downward and upwards leading with "stationary" movements, such as a cunita (downward) or a volcada (upward).

Some guys downward leads just mean "keep moving Heather, but just a teeny bit closer to the floor". Another (brilliant) guy I dance with goes up and takes me up, up and away; his shoulders riding high into his neck, body stiff upright, standing high on tippy-toes as he leads us both into something akin to an MC Hammer type swivel across the dancefloor. When I feel his shoulders taking flight, I'm ready to start moving. Fast. So again, what we are taught from the outset can mean something entirely different with some (mad) types. :eyebrow: