Amateur status & teaching

[danceislove]

Ok I tried searching for an answer in previous threads, but they either quickly disintegrated or were addressing the pro/am-teaching dilemma instead.
The NDCA rulebook has changed and now seems very vague. It no longer says anything about financial gain being a determining factor that I can see? I would love some help with interpretation!


So here it is:
Can you compete as an amateur and still teach?

[etp777]

NDCA = Yes
USADance = Not sure

[NielsenE]

NDCA: Yes if you are competing Am-Am, no if you are competing Pro-am

[atk]

NDCA: Yes if you are competing Am-Am, no if you are competing Pro-am


Clarification (as I understand it): NDCA: Yes if you are competing Am-Am, no if you are competing as the am in Pro-am


(edit: See mamboqueen's comment below - I originally, incorrectly wrote pro, in the bolded text)

[mamboqueen]

I think you meant "am"?

[Chris Stratton]

Both organizations now have comparable criteria for competing in their amateur events:

- you can't call yourself a professional
- you can't compete in a professional event
- you can't compete as the pro half of a pro/am pair

(NDCA has a few other unclear conditions about various other employment in the dance industry.)

The general answer is that yes, you can now teach and compete in amateur events sanctioned by both organizations.

Pro/am student dancers are now seperately defined as their own category with their own eligibility rules, which strongly prohibit teaching.

[Laura]

You got it, Chris.

[Egoist]

To be clear, can you make as much money as you want out of teaching?

[njdancegirl]

Pro/am student dancers are now seperately defined as their own category with their own eligibility rules, which strongly prohibit teaching.

I am currently the am in a pro/am couple, but in the past was an am in an am/am couple. I have no aspirations of teaching - I'll leave that to the professionals - but why are pro/am am's being discriminated against? I'm the same dancer just with a different partner.

[mamboqueen]

oh boy. there are more threads on that subject than there are stones on my latin dress. ;)

[danceislove]

Woah wait here people. This is what happened in the other threads, it rapidly descended into discussion of how pro/am am's can't teach.

Ok so to clarify. An AM can teach and be paid for it as much as they want as long as they do not:
1. call themselves a pro
2. compete pro/am on either side

Is that correct?

[Laura]

Yes danceislove.

[danceislove]

Thanks Laura :)
(and everyone else!)

Ok here is another "what if" monkey wrench....
"What if" the am owns a studio? Does that make any difference?

[atk]

I think you meant "am"?

Oops! You're right. I guess I ddint' clarify very well... I've edited my post to fix that.

[njdancegirl]

oh boy. there are more threads on that subject than there are stones on my latin dress. ;)

Sorry...didn't mean to open up a can of already open worms! I knew pros obviously could teach and now ams could teach under USA Dance, didn't realize that ams in pro/am couple couldn't...will do a search for those previous discussions!

[Laura]

Ok here is another "what if" monkey wrench....
"What if" the am owns a studio? Does that make any difference?
Ownership of a studio has always been 'outside' of the realm of what makes you a pro or amateur. The issue was whether you were making direct profit from your dancing knowledge, as in teaching or in doing shows for money, not if you were making profit from running a business related to or facilitating dance (studio ownership, hair & makeup, costume design & construction, selling shoes, and so on).

[mamboqueen]

Sorry...didn't mean to open up a can of already open worms! I knew pros obviously could teach and now ams could teach under USA Dance, didn't realize that ams in pro/am couple couldn't...will do a search for those previous discussions!

no need to apologize; just one of those topics that has been beaten to a pulp. :cool:

[danceislove]

Ownership of a studio has always been 'outside' of the realm of what makes you a pro or amateur.

Oh wow! Ok that is so exciting :D
Thank you for all the replies!

[Joe]

To be clear, can you make as much money as you want out of teaching?
"As much as you want" is not necessarily the same thing as "as much as people will pay you." ;)

[danceislove]

"As much as you want" is not necessarily the same thing as "as much as people will pay you." ;)

Toucher ;)

[Standarddancer]

"As much as you want" is not necessarily the same thing as "as much as people will pay you." ;)

so true

[Larinda McRaven]

To be clear, can you make as much money as you want out of teaching?

...well that is questionable...
If it were true I would be a millionaire.

[Standarddancer]

certainly VERY questionable;) if it were true, guess all competing am/am would quit their other jobs jump into teaching pool;)

[samina]

oh boy. there are more threads on that subject than there are stones on my latin dress. ;)

true. true...

[Standarddancer]

btw, cool new avatar, semina:)

[dancingmomof2]

I was looking at the rulebooks

for NDCA I found:

II(A). PROFESSIONAL: A Professional Dancer is one who is any or all of the following (anyone studying for or taking a theory exam will not be deemed a professional unless they declare themselves such as defined below):
a. Registered as a Professional with the NDCA.
b. A Staff Member employed by a Dance Studio to teach.
c. One who partners a Pro/Am Student Dancer or Registered Amateur in Pro/Am Competitions.
d. Any person who declares himself or herself a Professional by word or deed (Examples: serving as
* a hired Partner, or participating in Professional Competitions or Team Matches).

and for USADance it says
2.1.4. A "Professional" is an individual who has declared him or herself as a professional, or who has competed as a professional at a competition. Professionals are ineligible to compete in USA Dance events.

I would think that the comment in red from NDCA means that teachers can’t compete as athletes. Am I missing something?

[Laura]

Keep in mind that NDCA and USA Dance are two separate organizations. NDCA's rules govern NDCA competitors and competitions, and USA Dance rules cover USA Dance competitors and competitions. So, it is possible that someone might be considered a Pro by one set of rules and and not a Pro by another. Someone who teaches dancing but who has never called themselves a Pro and who has never joined an organization as a Pro and who has never entered a Professional competition is still an Amateur under USA Dance rules. If this same person is employed as a teaching staff member of a studio, then they may not dance as an Amateur in NDCA competitions. If this same person is an independent teacher who is not employed by a studio, then they can dance as an Amateur in NDCA competitions.

Note that if someone enters an NDCA competition as a Pro, then they have declared themself to be a Pro and can no longer enter the Amateur divisions in NDCA or USA Dance.

[dancingmomof2]

Thanks Laura. While that sounded confusing when I read it the first time it actually made a lot of sense.

[Laura]

Yeah, it is pretty confusing, I'm glad I could help.

[2totango]

So, if I were teaching, say Salsa, at a dance club, would that count as teaching under NDCA rules? My impression was that NDCA prohibited teaching BALLROOM only. Then again, you can compete in Salsa in some competitions, so would Salsa count as Ballroom?
Confused!

[Laura]

So, if I were teaching, say Salsa, at a dance club, would that count as teaching under NDCA rules? My impression was that NDCA prohibited teaching BALLROOM only.
Yes, it would count as teaching. However, Amateurs are allowed to teach, so it won't affect your status unless you violate one of the other rules such as the one about being on staff as a teacher at a dance studio, or going around advertising yourself as a pro. The NDCA rule book used to explicitly state that teaching of any partner dance was prohibited by Amateurs -- it wasn't just limited to ballroom. But this year the NDCA changed things so that Amateurs could teach (subject to the rules already listed on this thread), so they have eliminated that statement from the rule book.

[2totango]

Okay, but if I am competing as the am in Pro/am, would I be allowed to teach at a club? And, if I were on staff at a studio (as the am in Pro/am) and I wasn't teaching Ballroom, I wonder if that would confuse the issue?

[wooh]

Any partner dance counts. You can be on staff as a receptionist, but not on staff teaching a partner dance.

[Laura]

Okay, but if I am competing as the am in Pro/am, would I be allowed to teach at a club? And, if I were on staff at a studio (as the am in Pro/am) and I wasn't teaching Ballroom, I wonder if that would confuse the issue?
OH, you are talking about Pro/AM students teaching, not Amateurs teaching. There is a difference between what Amateurs can do (Amateurs are people who dance with another Amateur in an Amateur event) and what Pro/AM students can do (a Pro/AM student is a student who dances with a Professional in a Pro/AM event).

Pro/AM students are not allowed to teach:

II.A.3.b. A Pro/Am Student Dancer does not teach Ballroom dance under any circumstances.

Unfortunately, the NDCA Rule Book does not actually define what "Ballroom dance" is anywhere. There used to be a statement in another section about partner dancing, including things like country-western, lindy, and so on, but it's not there any more. And if you really want to split hairs (and base your definitions on the NDCA's own usage), "Ballroom" could be construed as meaning anything from "the five Standard dances" (silly in this context) to "any partner dancing that is done in a ballroom" (which is possibly what is intended, but this is not clear).

You would need to contact the NDCA for clarification.

[mamboqueen]

oh lord...don't get me going on the ambiguity of all this again!

[Laura]

We can just have TC dig up the old thread, it will save you a lot of typing.

[mamboqueen]

bwah ha ha!! Poor guy is going to start the feel the pressure here! ;)

[Terpsichorean Clod]

To hear is to obey, Your Royal Mamboness, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

Possible Rule Change: Amateur Couples can teach; pro/am student still restricted (http://danceforums.com/showthread.php?t=22840)
Pro/Ams and Teaching Poll. PLEASE READ POST #1 BEFORE POLLING. (http://danceforums.com/showthread.php?t=24203)

[mamboqueen]

any chance you can help me find my daughter's missing bracelet?? *LOL* You're too funny!

[latingal]

To hear is to obey, Your Royal Mamboness, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.[/URL]

Wow MQ, I'm impressed you really do "command" a response.

[SDsalsaguy]

Wow MQ, I'm impressed you really do "command" a response.
Check TC's sig line lg. ;)

[latingal]

Check TC's sig line lg. ;)

yes, saw that and was wondering when I get dubbed with a "title". *grin*

[mamboqueen]

Wow MQ, I'm impressed you really do "command" a response.

trust me, it's only with him!! ;)

[2totango]

I think that is where my confusion comes in:

1) If I am teaching a supposedly "non Ballroom" type dance, Salsa, in a club and I am the amateur of a Pro/am couple, am I disqualified as an amateur?

2) How about if I am not taking any monetary compensation for my class?

3) How about if I am not taking any compensation, but I am doing a favor for my instructor (the pro part of the Pro/am couple) and she/he discounts my lessons because of my teaching for her/him?

4) Or, if I am teaching in the studio where I take ballroom lessons, say something like zumba? Am I still an amateur ballroom competitor if I am either taking money from my zumba students and renting floor space from my studio? What if the studio takes the money from the zumba students and discounts my lessons with my pro?

I am not sure these have been addressed in either this thread or the other one TC referenced. I'm sorry if they have been and I've just overlooked the answers.

I have read both NDCS and USA Dance manuals and I can't seem to find the answer.

[danceislove]

I think that is where my confusion comes in:

1) If I am teaching a supposedly "non Ballroom" type dance, Salsa, in a club and I am the amateur of a Pro/am couple, am I disqualified as an amateur?

2) How about if I am not taking any monetary compensation for my class?

3) How about if I am not taking any compensation, but I am doing a favor for my instructor (the pro part of the Pro/am couple) and she/he discounts my lessons because of my teaching for her/him?

4) Or, if I am teaching in the studio where I take ballroom lessons, say something like zumba? Am I still an amateur ballroom competitor if I am either taking money from my zumba students and renting floor space from my studio? What if the studio takes the money from the zumba students and discounts my lessons with my pro?

I am not sure these have been addressed in either this thread or the other one TC referenced. I'm sorry if they have been and I've just overlooked the answers.

I have read both NDCS and USA Dance manuals and I can't seem to find the answer.


When in doubt, email the NDCA registrar.

[wooh]

Your safest bet would be to find an am partner. Short of that, check with the NDCA for clarification. (Competing pro/am, what USA Dance thinks doesn't matter.) Or just do whatever you want until you get "caught" which is what a lot of people do. Or do whatever you want and just call yourself an "intern.":rolleyes:

[2totango]

Can I just go ahead and e-mail the NDCA registrar?
I like that, "intern".....allows for an "anything goes" type of attitude!

[danceislove]

Can I just go ahead and e-mail the NDCA registrar?
I like that, "intern".....allows for an "anything goes" type of attitude!

Yep that is what I did just to make sure. The email is on the ndca.org website.

[wooh]

Can I just go ahead and e-mail the NDCA registrar?
I like that, "intern".....allows for an "anything goes" type of attitude!

Yeah, it's basically young pro girls that don't want to give up competing pro-am with their old man boyfriends...I mean old man pros.

[Laura]

1) If I am teaching a supposedly "non Ballroom" type dance, Salsa, in a club and I am the amateur of a Pro/am couple, am I disqualified as an amateur?
You are not disqualified as an Amateur (as in someone who dances in Amateur events with another Amateur partner), but you might be disqualified as the "Am" half of a Pro/Am couple, you need to check with the NDCA to be sure.

2) How about if I am not taking any monetary compensation for my class?
Well, if the NDCA considers Salsa a Ballroom dance, then it doesn't matter -- there's that thing about how Pro/Am Student Dancers can't teach "under any circumstances."

3) How about if I am not taking any compensation, but I am doing a favor for my instructor (the pro part of the Pro/am couple) and she/he discounts my lessons because of my teaching for her/him?
Is your favor something like fixing his costume, or teaching his class? If it's fixing his costume or balancing his books or doing anything that doesn't involve the teaching of dancing, then you are 100% in the clear. What you have then is a personal payment arrangement between the two of you that is no one else's business.

4) Or, if I am teaching in the studio where I take ballroom lessons, say something like zumba?
Zumba is DEFINITELY not a ballroom dance (even if Ballroom is extended to include Salsa, Lindy, Argentine Tango, and so on), so there is no problem there.

Am I still an amateur ballroom competitor if I am either taking money from my zumba students and renting floor space from my studio? What if the studio takes the money from the zumba students and discounts my lessons with my pro?
Since Zumba is not a ballroom dance by any stretch of the imagination, what you do about paying the studio or getting discounts on your lessons is not an issue.

I have read both NDCS and USA Dance manuals and I can't seem to find the answer.
USA Dance does not govern any aspect of Pro/Am dancing, so looking for rules clarifications there is besides the point. The NDCA says what a Pro/AM student dancer is/can do, except for the one picky point concerning what constitutes "Ballroom dance."

Section II.A.3 of the NDCA Rule Book says:
PRO/AM STUDENT DANCER:
a. A Pro/Am Student Dancer competes in Ballroom dance purely as an avocation.
b. A Pro/Am Student Dancer does not teach Ballroom dance under any circumstances.
c. A Pro/Am Student Dancer may neither demonstrate nor give shows for compensation in any style of Ballroom dance.
d. A Pro/Am Student Dancer is permitted to enter Ballroom dance "Pro/Am Scholarship Events" which offer monetary prizes. In this case, any prize money awarded belongs to the Pro./Am Student Dancer, not to the professional, and the Pro/Am Student Dancer may decide how it is to be used.
e. Pro/Am Student Dancers who are found to be in violation of any of the above definitions, will not be permitted to continue to compete in NDCA sanctioned competitions or championships, and the organizers of all NDCA sanctioned competitions and championships will be so notified. Should the Pro/Am Student Dancer cease the activity that violated the above definitions, his or her right to compete as a Pro/Am Student Dancer in NDCA sanctioned competitions and championships may be restored upon application to the NDCA. A waiting period may or may not be required when such reinstatements are made.

[danceislove]

Keep in mind that NDCA and USA Dance are two separate organizations. NDCA's rules govern NDCA competitors and competitions, and USA Dance rules cover USA Dance competitors and competitions. So, it is possible that someone might be considered a Pro by one set of rules and and not a Pro by another. Someone who teaches dancing but who has never called themselves a Pro and who has never joined an organization as a Pro and who has never entered a Professional competition is still an Amateur under USA Dance rules. If this same person is employed as a teaching staff member of a studio, then they may not dance as an Amateur in NDCA competitions. If this same person is an independent teacher who is not employed by a studio, then they can dance as an Amateur in NDCA competitions.

Note that if someone enters an NDCA competition as a Pro, then they have declared themself to be a Pro and can no longer enter the Amateur divisions in NDCA or USA Dance.

I've already determined I am an AM under NDCA, does that mean I am under USADANCE as well?

[wooh]

danceislove, NDCA seems to be stricter, so looks like you would be.

[Laura]

....

[Laura]

I've already determined I am an AM under NDCA, does that mean I am under USADANCE as well?
By virtue of the fact that the NDCA mostly changed their Amateur eligibility/permitted activities rules to align with USA Dance, and that the NDCA rules are slightly stricter, yes.

[samina]

It seems like we revisit this topic every couple months...maybe we should consolidate into a sticky or something. I don't think any other topic gets rehashed in detail more frequently...not even tanning. ;)

[2totango]

Lol!
Thanks, Laura!

[reb]

Zumba is DEFINITELY not a ballroom dance (even if Ballroom is extended to include Salsa, Lindy, Argentine Tango, and so on), so there is no problem there.

Since Zumba is not a ballroom dance by any stretch of the imagination, what you do about paying the studio or getting discounts on your lessons is not an issue

Agree (of course, my only qual here is what I've learned from DW who is also a Zumba instructor, in addition to Pilates, etc).

For us Ballrooom/Latin types otherwise unfamiliar with Zumba - its a fun aerobics exercise class set to Latin music which kind-of-maybe-sometimes includes figures resembling techniqueless ballroom Latin, more like street/social without partnering . . .

Did I say that its fun?

[mamboqueen]

Have done it myself! In fact, I considered getting certified but it kind of died out at the local gym. I will say that the instructor completely threw me off by doing all of her salsa basic steps forward. I kept going back on right....I was not a good student in that class!

[danceislove]

By virtue of the fact that the NDCA mostly changed their Amateur eligibility/permitted activities rules to align with USA Dance, and that the NDCA rules are slightly stricter, yes.

sorry. i wasn't trying to be difficult. i have no experience with usa dance and i found their rule book to be confusing.

[Laura]

I didn't think you were being difficult! I just figured you were new and was trying to give you a bit of the history along with your answer.

[danceislove]

I didn't think you were being difficult! I just figured you were new and was trying to give you a bit of the history along with your answer.

oh ok sorry. i took the "......." as a "what are you a freaking idiot??" ;)

i had heard somewhere that you had to apply in some special way and be approved by usa dance in order to teach and retain amateur status. i'm not sure where i heard that and now i can't find it on there website. so i'm all confused, however it doesn't take much :rolleyes:

[Laura]

That was in the old days -- like a year or two ago :) Now you can do what you want so long as you follow the very few rules that they have about not declaring yourself a Pro in word or in deed.

Just remember -- if you are doing Pro/Am and Amateur, you need to follow the Pro/Am rules since they are more restrictive than Amateur. If you are just doing Amateur and don't need to worry about Pro/Am at all, then things are easier and you're all set.

[danceislove]

That was in the old days -- like a year or two ago :) Now you can do what you want so long as you follow the very few rules that they have about not declaring yourself a Pro in word or in deed.

Just remember -- if you are doing Pro/Am and Amateur, you need to follow the Pro/Am rules since they are more restrictive than Amateur. If you are just doing Amateur and don't need to worry about Pro/Am at all, then things are easier and you're all set.


oh wow awesome :D i thought i was restricted from usa dance since i teach. i don't do pro/am so yay!
so you just register as an adult competitor then right?

[Laura]

You can teach and be an Amateur in USA Dance so long as you do not advertise yourself as a Pro, call yourself a Pro, or otherwise present yourself as a Pro. This includes not dancing as the PRO in Pro/Am, and not entering any Professional events at competitions.

You can teach and be an Amateur in NDCA so long as you do the above, plus are not employed as part of the Ballroom dance teaching staff of a dance studio (it is unknown as to if this means "all partner dances" or just "all the dancesport dances", please check with the NDCA registrar Eleanor Wilbin if this is an issue).

If you are going to dance in USA Dance-sanctioned events, you need to join USA Dance as an "Adult DanceSport Athelete."

If you are going to dance in NDCA-sanctioned events, you need to register with the NDCA as an "Amateur Competitor."

[2totango]

Done! Just e-mailed the registrar of NDCA to get some clarification. If she answers, I will let everyone know what she said.
Thanks to all for the comments!

[2totango]

And here is the response. I think it is pretty clear. No teaching by the am part of a pro/am couple of any dance that would be in a competition under any circumstances. Thank you to everyone who weighed in on this!





Your letter to the NDCA Registrar has been forwarded to me since it falls under the general umbrella of my department.

The NDCA 'Rule Book' definition states:

3. PRO/AM STUDENT DANCER:
a. A Pro/Am Student Dancer competes in Ballroom dance purely as an avocation.
b. A Pro/Am Student Dancer does not teach Ballroom dance under any circumstances.
c. A Pro/Am Student Dancer may neither demonstrate nor give shows for compensation in any style of Ballroom dance.
d. A Pro/Am Student Dancer is permitted to enter Ballroom dance "Pro/Am Scholarship Events" which offer monetary prizes. In this case, any prize money awarded belongs to the Pro./Am Student Dancer, not to the professional, and the Pro/Am Student Dancer may decide how it is to be used.


As you will see from the highlighted portion - it is very specific in that it states "under any circumstances."

The interpretation of "ballroom dance" should be taken to mean any dance that one might find at any NDCA registered competitive event, thus salsa, Argentine Tango, West Coast Swing, Hustle, and any other dance that you can think of that may be in a competition, are included as a "ballroom dance" for the purpose of this rule.

"Under any circumstances" was meant to mean exactly that - the NDCA believes that pro-am student dancers may not teach any ballroom oriented dances, for payment or not, in any location - studio, school, club, wherever; in other words under any circumstances.

I trust that this has cleared up your confusion; should you have any further questions please don't hesitate to contact me.

Sincerely,

Judi Hatton


Judi Hatton, FISTD,
First Vice President - NDCA

[reb]

Thanks 2totango!

. . . and Judi Hatton has been very helpful in the past - its great we have people like her in dancesport.

[Laura]

Thank you 2totango for getting this information and posting it. And thank you to Judi for being so prompt and thorough with her answer!

[Standarddancer]

You can teach and be an Amateur in USA Dance so long as you do not advertise yourself as a Pro, call yourself a Pro, or otherwise present yourself as a Pro. This includes not dancing as the PRO in Pro/Am, and not entering any Professional events at competitions.

You can teach and be an Amateur in NDCA so long as you do the above, plus are not employed as part of the Ballroom dance teaching staff of a dance studio (it is unknown as to if this means "all partner dances" or just "all the dancesport dances", please check with the NDCA registrar Eleanor Wilbin if this is an issue).

If you are going to dance in USA Dance-sanctioned events, you need to join USA Dance as an "Adult DanceSport Athelete."

If you are going to dance in NDCA-sanctioned events, you need to register with the NDCA as an "Amateur Competitor."

Just so surprised how people don't read the rule book:( this is at least 3rd or 4th time Laura (or someone else) posting to clarify/explain the same rule, same issue.