Alan Tornsberg article in 0806 "Dance Beat"

[ChaChaMama]

Did anyone else see this piece? I thought it was quite interesting. He offers some very specific takes on top couples.

[GJB]

I read it. He didn't really have much good to say about anyone.

Alan's article as well as several others about Blackpool can be downloaded for free from the dancebeat web site: http://www.dancebeatworld.com/members.php#anchor6

[Becca]

Thanks for pointing that out, I really enjoyed reading it.

[syncopationator]

I really enjoyed reading this as well. He is very direct and doesn't hold anything back.

[Sambero]

I wonder if the pros actually get a chance to hear/read some of this feedback .. or if they would even care! I wanna see the look on Michael's face when he hears his lockstep is too square! :p

[rainerng]

"Uggghhh!!!! What is that? Is that the future champions accenting “1” in Rumba??? Again and again!!!"

Dang...I always accent the 1 in rumba. So where is the accent? No accent?

[Josh]

"Uggghhh!!!! What is that? Is that the future champions accenting “1” in Rumba??? Again and again!!!"

Dang...I always accent the 1 in rumba. So where is the accent? No accent?

Maybe you're not dancing international rumba...? The '2' is accented, and the '4' tends to be as well, depending on the music and what you're going for at the time.

[latingal]

At the Millennium congress Alan spoke a bit about the article, I guess it has caused a bit of a stir. When I originally read the article I thought it was interesting and had the ring of brutal honesty of one's opinion. He is very direct and I thought he gave everybody (not just the pros, but all of us) a few things to think about when they are evaluating where they want to take their dancing.

I certainly gained a better understanding of what he thinks latin dancing should be, and how it might be applied.

[rainerng]

Maybe you're not dancing international rumba...? The '2' is accented, and the '4' tends to be as well, depending on the music and what you're going for at the time.


HMmmmm, Im pretty sure the 2 isnt accented in intl rumba/cha...

[Joe]

I read it. He didn't really have much good to say about anyone.

Alan's article as well as several others about Blackpool can be downloaded for free from the dancebeat web site: http://www.dancebeatworld.com/members.php#anchor6
Holy DUW, Batman!

[Josh]

HMmmmm, Im pretty sure the 2 isnt accented in intl rumba/cha...

Then, what is it, and why did you ask?

[Standarddancer]

I read it. He didn't really have much good to say about anyone.

Alan's article as well as several others about Blackpool can be downloaded for free from the dancebeat web site: http://www.dancebeatworld.com/members.php#anchor6

thanks for the link, I enjoy reading it:)

[pruthe]

I also enjoyed reading Alan's article.

[Sambero]

Then, what is it, and why did you ask?

.....it wont matter because Alan will yell at you anyway!!

[rainerng]

Then, what is it, and why did you ask?

I thought it was 1 (but apparently isnt) and I am pretty sure it isnt 2. THat leaves 3,4 or none. :sad:

[nevsky]

"Uggghhh!!!! What is that? Is that the future champions accenting “1” in Rumba??? Again and again!!!"

Dang...I always accent the 1 in rumba. So where is the accent? No accent?

The accent is on 4

[chica latina]

At the Millennium congress Alan spoke a bit about the article, I guess it has caused a bit of a stir. When I originally read the article I thought it was interesting and had the ring of brutal honesty of one's opinion. He is very direct and I thought he gave everybody (not just the pros, but all of us) a few things to think about when they are evaluating where they want to take their dancing.

I certainly gained a better understanding of what he thinks latin dancing should be, and how it might be applied.

I would love to have been there and see what he had to say... could you tell us more about it?

[ChaChaMama]

What I thought was interesting about this article was that it didn't seem critical for the sake of being critical, but made a substantive argument about what is currently being prioritized (speed, power, lines) and what he would like to see given greater priority (music, partnering, the authenticity/character of each dance). I felt like he said at least one positive thing about each couple he discussed, even if his overall assessment was sometimes quite critical. My assumption was that if he really didn't like a couple's dancing, he wouldn't bother discussing it.

I also was interested in his comments about dancers who dance like competitors, as if they wanted to win, which he painted as a bad thing (even though obviously it is a competition). He seemed to want couples to dance authentically and from the heart, even within that context.

CCM

[Josh]

.....it wont matter because Alan will yell at you anyway!!

Lol...

I think what you accent will depend on the music at hand, though I must say the "1" would be a funny place to accent since it's usually the '&' of the slow count. 2 would seem a pretty common place to accent since the break step is on a 2 (as in cha-cha), and the 4 is the beginning of a nice long slow, so capitalizing the 4 is a good choice as well.

[chachachacat]

what is currently being prioritized (speed, power, lines) and what he would like to see given greater priority (music, partnering, the authenticity/character of each dance).

I agree! Sometimes trends get too far off in one direction and need to be brought back to balance. SOMEBODY has to say it!

[GJB]

... made a substantive argument about what is currently being prioritized (speed, power, lines) and what he would like to see given greater priority (music, partnering, the authenticity/character of each dance).
CCM

But, what is "authentic" latin dancing? Is what is danced in the clubs or what is danced by native people of Africa, Cuba, or somewhere in South America? Or is it something else?

[Larinda McRaven]

My thoughts too!

[DanceSomatics]

I second that. Authentic in his view or not, the judges' job is to compare couples. Obviously they found Sergey and Melia with all their ""äuthenticity according to Alan"" not above Peter and Kristina. Both couples are great, but the comparison is what this judging business is about.

[dance234]

wow. one of the best things i've ever read in DB.

[K_8ie]

Maybe you're not dancing international rumba...? The '2' is accented, and the '4' tends to be as well, depending on the music and what you're going for at the time.

Actually, if you listen to an authentic cuban rumba you clearly hear an accent on 4....hence 2,3, 41!

The one is almost silent and therefore can be counted as 2, 3, 4 and and and

Also, following the 4, and depending on the phrase of the music there are additional accents on 2 and 3 consecutively.

Besides, I do believe the ISTD book states that the accent is on a 4 count.

[sambanada]

I read the article, and thought it was rude. Dancebeat is becoming a trash magazine, with the likes of enquirer. I am disspointed. With each issue, it is becoming less dance talk, and more dance trashing of couples.

[Ithink]

What Allan says is absolutely true. Most latin dancing right now is not really dancing, it's posing, for lack of a better term... The lead and follow are pretty nonexistant and forget musicality - it's all about the routine, the tricks and the glitz. I agree with him 100%. When he talks about authenticity of dance I think he means that danciing is about musical interpretation, first and foremost; that's what dance is, movement to music. You can work on tehcnical aspect of movement to make it as correct as you can but ultimately the goal is musical movement and Allan is right: that's really missing in latin today:(

[Becca]

I wouldn't go so far as to say it was rude . . . I think he made some really valid points, the majority of which I agree with and for sure he is not the only top professional to think a lot of those things.

[pruthe]

I attended a lecture Alan gave with Vibeke Toft at OSB in Nov. 2005 titled "Impact of Musicality". Here he defined dancing as "expressing the music with your body". For what he considered authentic rumba music, he said the accent is on 4. You basically freeze after taking the 4 step and the 1 is quiet. He said many people today are incorrectly accenting on 1.

[Some guy]

This article bothered me a little bit: mainly because I didn't think he himself was able to produce the things that he's criticizing other couples for not being able to do. It had a scent of "holier than thou" emanating from it, which to me only brought into sharp focus what he himself was lacking in his dancing. I'm sure I'm going to get a lot of fire for stating all this, but that's my opinion (transferring all power to shields!). It just looked a little bit like he's trying to do verbally what he couldn't do physically on the dance floor: make the other couples look bad.

[sambanada]

I agree. There are points top be made. However, they can be made without trashing specific couples. That is an attack on the couple, that can be seen as a political step to bring certain couples down. I do not see him as being any better then the couples he insults.

[chachachacat]

When he talks about authenticity of dance I think he means that dancing is about musical interpretation, first and foremost; that's what dance is, movement to music. ...ultimately the goal is musical movement and Allan is right: that's really missing in latin today

Amen!! :applause::applause::applause::applause:

Rumba is supposed to be a slow dance to slow music, is it not?

[Masaya]

I agree. There are points top be made. However, they can be made without trashing specific couples. That is an attack on the couple, that can be seen as a political step to bring certain couples down. I do not see him as being any better then the couples he insults.

Yeah, he could definitely have made the same points without being so harsh and dismissive. He makes it seem like many of the top couples should be ashamed of their dancing. Many of the criticisms are no longer constructive.

[DanceSomatics]

I think there was a discussion somewhere else about what is dancing, but in modern style there is first expression of oneself, not directly connecting to the music. Specifically, brought about by Rudolph Laban with his experimentation with Mary Wigwam before the war. No music, just pure expression of one's feelings. And that was still considered dancing.

Of course in Latin style it is first connected to the music, but in the desire to express the half beats and quarters and the right duration of the beat, one should not forget that we are first and foremost human beings with feelings and we always want to bring something new to the table.

Birds and animals also dance, not to music but of course always a rhythm underlying everything in the world. How about mating dance?

So to make a point it is more like Latin American Dancing is movement to music. Otherwise, it is not always a requirement to have the music for it to be called dancing.

[contracheck]

What Allan says is absolutely true. Most latin dancing right now is not really dancing, it's posing, for lack of a better term... The lead and follow are pretty nonexistant and forget musicality - it's all about the routine, the tricks and the glitz. I agree with him 100%. When he talks about authenticity of dance I think he means that danciing is about musical interpretation, first and foremost; that's what dance is, movement to music. You can work on tehcnical aspect of movement to make it as correct as you can but ultimately the goal is musical movement and Allan is right: that's really missing in latin today:(

He also criticized costumes and height imbalance (Andrei & Elena), which have nothing to do musicality. His wrath spared no one. It looks to me Allan was in bad mood in that day.

[Masaya]

Actually, I think he's like that in general . . . http://www.sportdance.ie/Allan

[contracheck]

Actually, I think he's like that in general . . . http://www.sportdance.ie/Allan
I am all confused. We have been taught in the US that winning is the only thing. In all of my life, I have steeled my mind and body to win. But he is now saying to us not to be hung up with winning but enjoy dancing and follow your natural instinct and musicality. It looks like I've wasted my life.

[tangotime]

Yeah, he could definitely have made the same points without being so harsh and dismissive. He makes it seem like many of the top couples should be ashamed of their dancing. Many of the criticisms are no longer constructive.




I think their Coaches need to take part of the " flack " .

Have had discussions in the recent past with several pros. in the business, and all seem to agree, that there has been a "departure " from musical interpretation, that has been absent for some time.

The other side of this coin... music is always subjective, and how one chooses to interpret the " piece " will seldom get a unanimous decision.

That, after all, is what Judging is all about.. personal choice .

[sambanada]

Sometimes judging is more then personal preference.Thats the problem.

[chocolatchica]

This is a great discussion and it was interesting reading what Allan had to say. I guess it can come off harsh to some people but I must say that I am used to this style of critique from him. He tends to be very blunt. There is a lot to be discussed about the article and what he said. I'm off to school though :-( I'll be back to join the discussion

[Sambero]

"what is currently being prioritized (speed, power, lines) and what he would like to see given greater priority (music, partnering, the authenticity/character of each dance)."

Well .. sadly today speed, power and lines is what is being marked! Its the judges who are pushing this trend .. not us .. after a while you just wanna win ya know! Also from an entertainment perspective people seem to better recognize speed, power and lines .. when was the last time someone came up to you and said .. i loved your cha cha ..it was so authentic!!

[chica latina]

[I
[/I]Well .. sadly today speed, power and lines is what is being marked! Its the judges who are pushing this trend .. not us .. after a while you just wanna win ya know! Also from an entertainment perspective people seem to better recognize speed, power and lines .. when was the last time someone came up to you and said .. i loved your cha cha ..it was so authentic!!

Actually people have complemented me on that in a few occassion... but have been top dancers/judges that understand it. Not sure general public does.

[contracheck]

"what is currently being prioritized (speed, power, lines) and what he would like to see given greater priority (music, partnering, the authenticity/character of each dance)."

Well .. sadly today speed, power and lines is what is being marked! Its the judges who are pushing this trend .. not us .. after a while you just wanna win ya know! Also from an entertainment perspective people seem to better recognize speed, power and lines .. when was the last time someone came up to you and said .. i loved your cha cha ..it was so authentic!!

I guess Allan is living in the good old days when life was slow and easy. We now live life in fast lane, and the goal is winning.

[rainerng]

I guess I don't even know what "authentic" means. Who is the most "authentic" dancer? The locals in havana? The tango dancers in buenos aires?

[contracheck]

I guess I don't even know what "authentic" means. Who is the most "authentic" dancer? The locals in havana? The tango dancers in buenos aires?

I guess everyone has different opinion on what "authentic" means. I guess this is why we have to be extra careful when we criticize other artists.

[Masaya]

Even by ballroom standards I would imagine Allan's dancing is a far cry from how Latin was originally danced decades ago...
At some point all this talk of authenticity just starts to sound like the bitter remarks of someone who never achieved the level of athletic capabilities and conditioning that current top dancers have today.

[sambanada]

amen

[NoDayButToday]

"I am baffled to why dancers do not listen to their heart and do some more research with regards to music and partnering. If we are not careful we will end up being so sportive that the competitions will loose their entertainment value and artistry." ...I love this. He seems like he would be a great coach.

[GJB]

Lmao!

[sambanada]

Alan should have practiced what he preaches. From speaking to many people in the dance community, he lost respect. He made personal attacks on dancers, particularly those who do not take lessons with him. Meanwhile, these dancers are considered to be some of the best dancers in the world. I do not see how making fun of a couple's height difference is necessary to discuss dancing. If he had a point to make, he could have done so in a respectable way. I no longer can take what he says seriously, even if there is a lot of relevance to his point about partnership and musicality.

[Larinda McRaven]

Alan should have practiced what he preaches.

I do not see how making fun of a couple's height difference is necessary to discuss dancing.

He "should have"? He is not here to critique what he should have done 10 years ago. He is here to critique what he sees today. As someone who is not danicng anymore he is free to view and grow as a judge and a coach. Now he has an inside view AND an outside view that comes with time off the floor.


I never saw anything making fun of Andre and Elenas height. He said they were already challenged because of their height and her costuming was a further detraction. There was no making fun.

[contracheck]

Allan is a dancr of great humility. He is not a loose cannon. It's always wise for people in public eye to keep modest and low profile to brign the the public their side.

[gtech]

I agree with larinda. Alan is not making fun of anybody, he is just telling his opinion. And he is right-Latin nowadays became only a showof of every individual dancer. People don't dance together, everything is just speed, power. The women look like they Try to show how sexy they are, men how big machos they are. Everybody is ready to kill each other just to win. Everything is so fast that you can't appreciate looking at it and the dancers can't dance it fully. I think allan is right. Somebody needs to say something, so things can change. Dancing is not about showing off how cool you are, but about expressing the way you feel the music through your body.

[contracheck]

I agree with larinda. Alan is not making fun of anybody, he is just telling his opinion. And he is right-Latin nowadays became only a showof of every individual dancer. People don't dance together, everything is just speed, power. The women look like they Try to show how sexy they are, men how big machos they are. Everybody is ready to kill each other just to win. Everything is so fast that you can't appreciate looking at it and the dancers can't dance it fully. I think allan is right. Somebody needs to say something, so things can change. Dancing is not about showing off how cool you are, but about expressing the way you feel the music through your body.

In numerouse experiemnts here, I've reconfirmed over and over that criticisms against other people, especially against fellow people in the same field, needs to be like gentle sprong rain. People tend to accepts such criticisms favourably and use them as fertilizers to promote thier growth. Unnecessarilly harsh criticisms, however, no matter how valid they are, tend to make people reject them instantly and counter attack the criticizers.

[Larinda McRaven]

It has nothing to do with valid or not. Break a DF rule and you will see the consequences.

[contracheck]

I never saw anything making fun of Andre and Elenas height. He said they were already challenged because of their height and her costuming was a further detraction. There was no making fun.

To mine eyes, Elena/Andrei's black dance clothes in the British Open was beautiful, some of the best costumes they wore in many yrs. Can someone point out to me why their costumes were a detraction?

[fascination]

It has nothing to do with valid or not. Break a DF rule and you will see the consequences.
correct...and the rules are clear that we are not going to have a conversation about the character of another individual...particularly ones who are not here to speak for themselves

[sambanada]

I think Alan is a great artist. What he says makes a lot of sense. If he had written the article making his point, without using names of specific poeple, I would have thought his article to be ingeniuos.

[Larinda McRaven]

Perhaps that is the real issue. Are people more upset at what he actually said, or are they upset because they feel themselves (or friends, teachers...) were openly critiqued?

[sambanada]

I do not know the couples he critisizes, since I have not danced competively since I moved to New Jersey a few years ago. However, they are couples that I admire because they are great dancers. The dancers are all different because dance is a very personal expression.

[GJB]

I think it's Alan's tone that has people upset more than what he has to say.

[fascination]

perhaps...but we are not going to characterize him here...DF strives to adhere to a higher standard however disappointing that might occasionally be to the enjoyment of discussing it...thanks

[fascination]

we aren't going to debate moderation

[NoDayButToday]

Lmao!


Wait, why is that funny?

[GJB]

Wait, why is that funny?

The post I found funny was deleted. Sorry that is appears that I was commenting on your post.

[Sambero]

Actually people have complemented me on that in a few occassion...

.. then I truly look forward to seeing you dance some day :rolleyes:

[chocolatchica]

I think it's Alan's tone that has people upset more than what he has to say.
I agree. I believe it was more of the tone that made some people shake their fingers at him. I must say that I did enjoy his article though. Not sure that I would have the guts to come out like that but as some people pointed out, some of those things needed to be said. And by that I mean, I'm sure he wasn't the only one thinking these things. I'm sure many people were, he just happened to have it published. I also believe that it has a lot to do with people's comfort zone (verbally speaking). Some people take one thing as an offense while others take it as constructive criticism. I can clearly see how some people may have been offended by what he said. Had I been one of those couple I may have been a bit hurt but that's something that I believe one needs to take as a dancer who presents themselves to the public to be openly critiqued. That's the whole point of competitive dancing. I did not hear anyone comment on the compliments he did hand out here and there either. I must say that hen I first read this article I felt that he came off distasteful and rude but as I put more thought into it and tried to see it as a tool for the other dancers it became a different story. It is up to the dancer whether they take his advice into consideration or not. Anyways I could ramble on and on about this forever. Alan will be Alan and how each individual interprets his words will vary. It is nice to hear a different perspective than the "norm" and look forward to reading more of his and other individuals articles.

[Josh]

I must say, after reading the article, I found nothing really terribly offensive that Allan said. He had nice words, and he had criticisms. Seems that some are quite easily offended...! ???

[Larinda McRaven]

I agree


*waves hello*

[Josh]

back atcha baby

[tuftufwang]

Had I been one of those couple I may have been a bit hurt but that's something that I believe one needs to take as a dancer who presents themselves to the public to be openly critiqued. That's the whole point of competitive dancing. I did not hear anyone comment on the compliments he did hand out here and there either. I must say that hen I first read this article I felt that he came off distasteful and rude but as I put more thought into it and tried to see it as a tool for the other dancers it became a different story. It is up to the dancer whether they take his advice into consideration or not. Anyways I could ramble on and on about this forever. Alan will be Alan and how each individual interprets his words will vary. It is nice to hear a different perspective than the "norm" and look forward to reading more of his and other individuals articles.

Absolutely, I thought his comments were really well thought out and as you said, competitive dancing is publicly viewed and not to mention highly subjective so Alan's merely presenting his perspective. Another thing to note is that Alan is not a native English speaker so his writing may come off as blunt. Those who have been coached by Alan knows that he is very passionate about musicality and partnering. I must agree with him though that speed, power and lines have taken precedence over these elements.

[syncopationator]

While I don't know Alan personally, I do know several people who take coaching from him and know him better and from how they describe him to me, he's the type of person who tells it exactly how he feels.

Its no secret that several of the couples at the top are heavily dependent on political support. I interpret Alan's comments as his way of pointing out couples who he feels do not dance with great quality yet are rewarded by their coaches while there are other couples who he feels do dance with great quality but are not recognized by the judges - probably because they don't play the politics game. Just a thought...