Ballroom following versus AT following

[Peaches]

Debated putting this elsewhere, but opted for the AT forum cuz I like you guys ;)...

Thinking about things in the other thread, and the idea of differences in following in ballroom versus in AT...what do the more experienced people have to say?

For my own part, I know that following in AT makes sense to me. Not so much for Standard. Really, not at all. Stay put...move when asked to move...energy forward towards the leader...keep center aligned to the leader, unless that alignment is deliberately changed. Makes perfect sense, right?

Except I've run across ballroom dancers saying that Standard is the same. (Somewhere here on DF. Don't ask me where.) Whaaa??? I don't see how I can keep my center aligned to his when I'm all contorted like that. I don't get where I'm supposed to be focusing my energy--towards him? Into his hand? Somewhere I haven't even considered? When does your center begin to move? Seems to me, there's got to be some split-weight thing going on, but it seems like others have said it isn't. Synchronicity...yeah, kinda got that much...conceptually, at least.

Can someone add their thoughts and wisdom? And, please, if you're talking about Standard, please explain it like you're talking to someone *really stupid*, because otherwise I really just don't get it. Or relate/compare it to AT, which I get?

[Ampster]

Ok, I'll share my experience based on two friends. One is exclusively an AT dancer. The other, a pro-champion BR dancer who knows how to dance AT.

I also dance with several follows and roughly in under 10 seconds you can tell who the ballroom dancers are. They feel VERY, VERY different from the exclusive AT follower.

The AT follower:

Dances "into" the leader (an embrace)
Waits a split second for the lead, then moves
Warm, and cozy
The primary focus is the connection
The lead and follow relationship is heart-felt and is emotional
At the end of the tanda, if it all comes together, the both of you feel like embracing each other as a thank you


The BR follower:

Dances "away" from the lead (closed-standard dance position, stiff, tense, and tends to bend backwards)
Technically astute
deliberate and precise
Primary focus is getting the steps right
The lead follow relationship feels regimented and almost mechanical
At the end of the dance, if it all comes together, you want to bow, shake her hand, and escort her to her seat in gratitude

[Peaches]

Originally posted by Chris in another thread. Moved here by me...
Originally Posted by Peaches http://www.dance-forums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?p=573137#post573137)
Assuming the most basic kind of step, where both of us are stepping together, I don't change weight, or being changing weight--which is to say, I don't begin moving my center--until the leader changes his weight. Up until the point where he changes his weight and asks me to change mine, he's moving only my free foot; my center shouldn't move. There are two parts to the lead--the intention, and the change of weight. I don't move my center until the second part of the lead. Like I said, AFAIK, this *is* a universal "truth" in AT. I don't see how this is limiting me to only those who have made the same choice, unless we're talking about limiting me only to other AT dancers. Which I've already done myself--like I said, it's really the only thing I dance.

Am I just missing something here??

You seem to be taking the view that there's a leg only phase, and then fairly concise change of weight action, and that you would follow your partner for both of these. That may be appropriate in some partner dance styles, but speaking more generally, we could say that there's a potential for leg only movement, a (limited) potential for movement of the body weight while still remaining balanced on the standing foot, and then a range of speeds at which the body weight can depart the standing foot towards arrival onto the moving one. And perhaps some other ranges that might be familiar to you but are outside my experience.

The general answer for all of these is that you would progress through each range at the speed you were lead to. The simplest case of that would be that you'd progress through each of these at the same speed your partner does, the more complicated case would be that you'd do it at a speed based on a feeling he's creating for you, different than what he's actually doing himself.

What you think of as characteristic movement for a given type of dance is a habit of using some of these ranges to a greater or lesser degree - for example, your foot only phase and then your center movement / weight change. But ultimately, if you allow for a greater range of possibilities, encompassing both those used by AT leaders and those used in other dance styles, you may find that the current model oversimplifies even AT, leaving out nuances that might ultimately be there. The real complaint probably wasn't that you were moving your center too soon for AT or too late for ballroom, it was that you were doing something different from your partner.

[Peaches]

You seem to be taking the view that there's a leg only phase, and then fairly concise change of weight action, and that you would follow your partner for both of these. That may be appropriate in some partner dance styles, but speaking more generally, we could say that there's a potential for leg only movement, a (limited) potential for movement of the body weight while still remaining balanced on the standing foot, and then a range of speeds at which the body weight can depart the standing foot towards arrival onto the moving one. And perhaps some other ranges that might be familiar to you but are outside my experience.

The general answer for all of these is that you would progress through each range at the speed you were lead to. The simplest case of that would be that you'd progress through each of these at the same speed your partner does, the more complicated case would be that you'd do it at a speed based on a feeling he's creating for you, different than what he's actually doing himself.

What you think of as characteristic movement for a given type of dance is a habit of using some of these ranges to a greater or lesser degree - for example, your foot only phase and then your center movement / weight change. But ultimately, if you allow for a greater range of possibilities, encompassing both those used by AT leaders and those used in other dance styles, you may find that the current model oversimplifies even AT, leaving out nuances that might ultimately be there. The real complaint probably wasn't that you were moving your center too soon for AT or too late for ballroom, it was that you were doing something different from your partner.Heh...I'm reading this through and wondering what we're disagreeing about, exactly. Well, up until the very end, that is.

Part of it is that I wasn't matched to my partners' movements. But there is/was also a fundamental difference in how each expected me to move, which comes down to some fundamental difference in technique. Again, I can really only speak to things in the context of AT, and how it compares.

With the AT teacher, he was expecting/wanting (*ahem* demanding *ahem*) that I keep my center stationary, weight over my standing leg, and energy towards him until he asked for a weight change. Granted, that change could be slow or fast, whole or partial. But up until he asked for it, however he asked for it, my center stayed with his. Any movement was reaching for the next step, up through my hip--a lengthening of my side between the hip of my free leg and my center.

As for what the ballroom guy said/felt...um...i can't really give you any more detail, because it's not as if I understand that type of movement. The comment was that it took a lot of motivation before I'd move my center on my own; that I didn't move from my center right away. Perhaps someone can translate that...

That any movement should be in time with either leader is a given, but there seems to be a very big difference about what that actually translates to in terms of actual movement and following. Like I've said, the AT makes sense to me. It's the Standard that I can't wrap my mind around and that drives me nuts.

[Alias]

You seem to be taking the view that there's a leg only phase, and then fairly concise change of weight action, and that you would follow your partner for both of these.
...

Heh...I'm reading this through and wondering what we're disagreeing about, exactly. Well, up until the very end, that is.

Are you talking to yourself? ;)

Your quoting is a bit misleading.
It's a bit tricky to keep quotes inside quotes ...
So here it goes:

From the "Girl wants to learn Leads part (http://www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?t=26463)" thread:

The discussion went on from post 39 (http://www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?p=572951#post572951):
...
I find it amusing that I've been told by AT teachers that I move my center away from the guy too quickly, that I need to wait and delay more. ...and then the comment I've gotten from a (primarily) ballroom dancer is that I don't move from my center until very late. Lol. Yeah, perspective has a lot to do with it.

... to post 64 (http://www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?p=573231#post573231):

Assuming the most basic kind of step, where both of us are stepping together, I don't change weight, or being changing weight--which is to say, I don't begin moving my center--until the leader changes his weight. Up until the point where he changes his weight and asks me to change mine, he's moving only my free foot; my center shouldn't move. There are two parts to the lead--the intention, and the change of weight. I don't move my center until the second part of the lead. Like I said, AFAIK, this *is* a universal "truth" in AT. I don't see how this is limiting me to only those who have made the same choice, unless we're talking about limiting me only to other AT dancers. Which I've already done myself--like I said, it's really the only thing I dance.

Am I just missing something here?

You seem to be taking the view that there's a leg only phase, and then fairly concise change of weight action, and that you would follow your partner for both of these. That may be appropriate in some partner dance styles, but speaking more generally, we could say that there's a potential for leg only movement, a (limited) potential for movement of the body weight while still remaining balanced on the standing foot, and then a range of speeds at which the body weight can depart the standing foot towards arrival onto the moving one. And perhaps some other ranges that might be familiar to you but are outside my experience.

The general answer for all of these is that you would progress through each range at the speed you were lead to. The simplest case of that would be that you'd progress through each of these at the same speed your partner does, the more complicated case would be that you'd do it at a speed based on a feeling he's creating for you, different than what he's actually doing himself.

What you think of as characteristic movement for a given type of dance is a habit of using some of these ranges to a greater or lesser degree - for example, your foot only phase and then your center movement / weight change. But ultimately, if you allow for a greater range of possibilities, encompassing both those used by AT leaders and those used in other dance styles, you may find that the current model oversimplifies even AT, leaving out nuances that might ultimately be there. The real complaint probably wasn't that you were moving your center too soon for AT or too late for ballroom, it was that you were doing something different from your partner.

[opendoor]

Hello Forum,

first of all, I find it difficult to define, what actually AT Leading is.

For me: usually it will be the impuls of my thorax together with the weight shift which gives the information in close embrace.
Neo dancing is totally different because it depends on the Naveira system of "showing the room" . And remember that there is the old Todaro-Bravo System (Nuevo and stage Tango) of leading which uses heavy pushing with your right hand to get the woman into the right position !! (I usually call it Tornado style ;-) ) And with Milonga traspie: you will lift your hips slightly to get the leg free. And in the evening it will surely happen that you mix some salsa commands in between.

So what is AT leading?

My answer: not the leading is unique, position and embrace rule the leading.

[Joe]

If the tango lead is supposed to come from your center, your tango center is apparently much higher than your ballroom center...

[Peaches]

Don't know. If I make a fist, and jam it up into the inverted V of my rib cage...that's about where I think of my center as being. It's what I try to keep up and towards the leader, it's what I think of really controlling (well, that and my axis/spine), and it's what I "listen" to from the leader.

And for ballroom...where do you think of your center/leading from?

[Joe]

Lower.

[Peaches]

(Helpful, as always, I see.)

Knees lower? Belt buckle? Navel?

[Joe]

Somewhere between buckle and sternum.

[bastet]

Ok, I'll share my experience based on two friends. One is exclusively an AT dancer. The other, a pro-champion BR dancer who knows how to dance AT.

I also dance with several follows and roughly in under 10 seconds you can tell who the ballroom dancers are. They feel VERY, VERY different from the exclusive AT follower.



The AT follower:

Dances "into" the leader (an embrace)
Waits a split second for the lead, then moves
Warm, and cozy
The primary focus is the connection
The lead and follow relationship is heart-felt and is emotional
At the end of the tanda, if it all comes together, the both of you feel like embracing each other as a thank you


The BR follower:

Dances "away" from the lead (closed-standard dance position, stiff, tense, and tends to bend backwards)
Technically astute
deliberate and precise
Primary focus is getting the steps right
The lead follow relationship feels regimented and almost mechanical
At the end of the dance, if it all comes together, you want to bow, shake her hand, and escort her to her seat in gratitude


I do think it's true that in BR you are more "away" from your partner. I see this all the time with beginners who are taking up AT for the first time. The connection areas are different, becasue the "frame" is different, down towards the pelvic area and not up in the upper ab/sternum area.

I tend to see the other 4 BR points with the men (getting steps right) as I've found even a good BR follow will want to follow, even thought she's weighted all wrong for AT (shoulders back, offset, trying ot connect in the hip area) but I don't know any BR pros who have seriously taken up tango.

One of the dead giveaways for both is the arms...BR arm positioning is different, a hard habit to break and leads to a different feeling in the lead (not much feeling, IMO)

The thing I felt I had to relearn after a long time of BR was exactly what my legs wanted to do when walking. My other half and I had problems with bumping legs for awhile and I realized I was still used to waiting for the motion to come from lower down and wasn't getting my legs out of the way, and when I did, I guess my axis shifted too much. So I worked out on my own the whole, extension-stay-on weighted-leg-move thing til it got better so maybe it was just bad axis management on my part or maybe it was a holdover from BR (I had the shoulders back thing too when I first started), who knows.

I will say it feel different both leading a person who dances BR and following someone in AT who dances BR.

[opendoor]

Somewhere between buckle and sternum

Hi Joe, it depends a little bit on the extent of one´s paunch ;-)

Greetings

@ opendoor in addition to my post 6 (http://www.dance-forums.com/showpost.php?p=573300&postcount=6) above:

The longer I dance TA the more my centre slides downwards. You can dance almost every step and figure in TA with a colgada-like centrifugal outward spin. This requires a very low centre comparable to the BR lead.

[Larinda McRaven]

Well the true center of gravity for a normal human is somewhere around the belly btton, maybe a little lower for women.

So the word center is not used in a true sense for Ballroom and apparently not for AT either.

[dchester]

Don't know. If I make a fist, and jam it up into the inverted V of my rib cage...that's about where I think of my center as being. It's what I try to keep up and towards the leader, it's what I think of really controlling (well, that and my axis/spine), and it's what I "listen" to from the leader.

And for ballroom...where do you think of your center/leading from? I had one teacher who said that it is where the chest of the shorter person hits the torso of the taller person (i.e. it depends).

[Steve Pastor]

Every Body has a center of gravity (aka center).
It would be possible to determine the (more or less) center by placing that Body on a "see saw" like apparatus. The determination of the exact location of the "center" would be limited by the amount of friction at the balance point of the "see saw".

If you want to see what a "physics guy" and his collaborators think about the location of the "center" go to this url http://web.hep.uiuc.edu/home/g-gollin/dance/dance_physics.pdf and search for "center".

Notice that in the diagrams with "people" in them, and the center shown as a circle, that arms and legs are in positions that social dancers don't often find themselves in.
In particular look at page 14. Note the leg up and behind, but also note that the "center" is in front of the standing foot, balancing the weight of the leg up and behind the body.

Look at page 16: Staying Balanced. Note that the "center" is between the feet, if you draw a straight line from the center of the body straight down into the floor. This body is "at rest" or motionless.

P.S. These diagrams seem to be from Physics and the Art of Dance by Kenneth Laws.

[newbie]

Well the true center of gravity for a normal human is somewhere around the belly btton, maybe a little lower for women.

So the word center is not used in a true sense for Ballroom and apparently not for AT either.


For ballroom I dunno but for AT yes.
http://www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?p=562450#post562450

[Steve Pastor]

When your body is at rest, how do you move forward?
The average person picks their foot up and moves it forward away from their body. As this motion occurs, the "center" moves forward also. Remember that in the diagrams I referred to above, arm, leg, and torso postions "balance", and keep the "center" directly above the standing foot.

As the center moves in front of the standing foot, you begin to "topple" forward.
If you don't want to move forward, you have to move something else backwards, to balance the weight of your foot/leg that is now in front of your body.
I've posted these links before:
http://www.oandp.org/jpo/library/1997_01_010.asp
http://www.oandp.org/jpo/library/1997_02_049.asp

In AT rather than pick our foot up to initiate forward movment, we train ourselves to "lead from the center" and begin the forward movement by moving our upper body forward first, and delay the movment of our foot.
The shape of your body hasn't changed, and the location of your center hasn't changed, you just inititate forward movement differently. In the apilado style this different way of initiating forward movment is very noticeable. In an open style it is less noticeable.

[Steve Pastor]

So what about the follower?
Well, the same thing but backwards and in high heels.
In an earlier post in another thread I think I mentioned that women often move that foot out behind themselves, taking their center with them and away from the leader. (or more accurately, your body is going to "want" to move backwards)

If you move your leg out and behind yourself, and you don't move something forward to balance that force, you are going to move backwards.
(I would love to have a high speed / high resolution motion capture camera to document this, but would be surprised of someone somewhere hasn't done it already.)

When we dance with a partner, we influence how they move. Rather than initiating movement by themselves, we can act on our partner's body to initiate movement.

When I move forward in AT fashion, less from the picking up of my foot/leg and more from the top of my body first, I am acting on my partner's body (if we are physically connected). My upper body literally pushes against my partner's body. How she reacts to my forward movement, and the physical force involved, is the crux of this thread.

[Steve Pastor]

It gets really interesting when we consider at least two things: we aren't inanimate objects, and there can be many different ways to physically connect with our partner.

Touching, "embracing", or creating a "frame" with our partner leads to no end of discussion. This is why I like to use an apilado, chest to chest "embrace" when discussing things. No arms or shoulders are required. Arms and shoulders, etc can and do act as "shock absorbers" and such, absorbing, dampening, increasing things we do with the rest of our body. It gets complicated, and eliminating it makes things simplier.
Of course, I don't think people dance chest to chest in standard. So this is where this will all break down. But before it does...

We can react to a force that is making us "want" to move. When I move my upper body toward my partner, she will feel that increased pressure. She can move immediately, or she can use her musculature to resist. I can increase the "energy" towards her. I do this by relaxing muscles on the back side of my body, and contacting muscles on the front side of my body. I can move my foot forward. All of these things will make my body "want" to move forward. (Actually, gravity will be pulling my body forward.)

At a certain point my partner will begin to move backwards, either because she can no longer resist the energy/weight/force pushing against her, or because she simply no longer resists and allows herself to move backwards by relaxing the muscles that were holding her in place.

I could be wrong about this, but I think that extra split second between moving the upper body forward and moving the foot forward, the part where the woman is "resisting" the movement, then when the woman is moving moving her foot/leg as her "center" moves backwards, then the man has "cleared" that space for his own foot/ leg....
I think this comes from the fact that in AT you don't know where the next step is coming from or going to, and you therefore need that extra split second.
That is the part that you don't feel in other dances such as standard.

Or as I like to say, that resistance makes it feel like your partner wants to stay with you, rather than staying ahead of you.

[samina]

(Helpful, as always, I see.)

Knees lower? Belt buckle? Navel?

think lower back... if you envision moving your lower back closer to your partner, the right part of you in front moves forward. as joe says, somewhere between the buckle and the sternum.

[Me]

Debated putting this elsewhere, but opted for the AT forum cuz I like you guys ;)...

Thinking about things in the other thread, and the idea of differences in following in ballroom versus in AT...what do the more experienced people have to say?

For my own part, I know that following in AT makes sense to me. Not so much for Standard. Really, not at all. Stay put...move when asked to move...energy forward towards the leader...keep center aligned to the leader, unless that alignment is deliberately changed. Makes perfect sense, right?

Except I've run across ballroom dancers saying that Standard is the same. (Somewhere here on DF. Don't ask me where.) Whaaa??? I don't see how I can keep my center aligned to his when I'm all contorted like that. I don't get where I'm supposed to be focusing my energy--towards him? Into his hand? Somewhere I haven't even considered? When does your center begin to move? Seems to me, there's got to be some split-weight thing going on, but it seems like others have said it isn't. Synchronicity...yeah, kinda got that much...conceptually, at least.

Can someone add their thoughts and wisdom? And, please, if you're talking about Standard, please explain it like you're talking to someone *really stupid*, because otherwise I really just don't get it. Or relate/compare it to AT, which I get?

It sounds to me (could be wrong) that you are finding the topline to be disorienting. Your question seems to be more about body placement than actual following. The easiest way I have had this described to me is - Argentine tango "topline" is danced on the 'inside of the circle,' and standard "topline" is danced 'on the outside of the circle.' In tango your body is very much up but, depending on style, your topline is inclined toward your partner. There is debate on where the face should be (particularly in close embrace) but typically I see the follow's head turned toward her partner.

In standard your body is also stretching up yet into the man's right hand on your back, but you are not leaning back or bending back, rather you are rotated into the man's arm. I hesitate to use the words "stiff" or "rigid" but the elbows are quite stationary - the lead depends on your keeping your topline steady in order to, well, lead you. What you will probably find most disorienting is where you feel the weight of your head. In standard it is on the top of your spine and back (but no bent neck) and the face turned over your left shoulder, away from your partner. At first it will feel very much like you are leaning backwards, but you are not. :)

However, despite all those topline differences, you will want to follow just the same. Energy forward, waiting for your partner. The lead should move with the same unity of body and forward energy leads must use in tango. That's just good dancing!

Your tango training will present some problems, the biggest probably being that your body will tend to want to remain on a foot. (I've watched tango follows new to social bronze foxtrot walk back for two, step side on three and attempt to ocho.) Then you run into issues of training your body to swing and hover, rise and lower, etc.

Hopefully none of that was too confusing or wrong. (Where are tangotime and Angel_Hi when you need them, arg!!!)

Re: following - My ballroom improved tremendously after I studied tango. If a man knows a pattern that I have never danced, assuming that pattern is leadable (and he is leading it) chances are I can follow it...

[Peaches]

Your tango training will present some problems, the biggest probably being that your body will tend to want to remain on a foot. (I've watched tango follows new to social bronze foxtrot walk back for two, step side on three and attempt to ocho.)
LOL. What have I done??? Oh yeah... When my teacher is standing waiting for the right beat in the music to start, I have a tendency to draw circles on the floor with my free foot. The third step of a feather step turns into a cross. And the first OP step into the...something...weave? (first three steps of a natural turn, then outside partner into something that feels like an AT continuous basic to me)...I tend to cross right behind left. And my VW crossover in the something-something step turns out like and AT cross.

Heh...I give up. (But am still curious.)

(Where are tangotime and Angel_Hi when you need them, arg!!!)I've been hoping they'd chime in lately.

[Me]

LOL. What have I done??? Oh yeah... When my teacher is standing waiting for the right beat in the music to start, I have a tendency to draw circles on the floor with my free foot. The third step of a feather step turns into a cross. And the first OP step into the...something...weave? (first three steps of a natural turn, then outside partner into something that feels like an AT continuous basic to me)...I tend to cross right behind left. And my VW crossover in the something-something step turns out like and AT cross.

Heh...I give up. (But am still curious.)

I've been hoping they'd chime in lately.

My partner's favorite was when I threw in a boleo at the end of an impetus turn.

Did I say favorite? I meant to say, he really wanted to shoot me when I did that. :p

[Peaches]

think lower back... if you envision moving your lower back closer to your partner, the right part of you in front moves forward. as joe says, somewhere between the buckle and the sternum.Oh, wow. Something actually made sense. Thank you.

[Peaches]

My partner's favorite was when I threw in a boleo at the end of an impetus turn.

Did I say favorite? I meant to say, he really wanted to shoot me when I did that. :pLOL. Well, did you do it smoothly, and without interrupting the dance? I don't see what the big deal is, then? ;)

[bordertangoman]

think lower back... if you envision moving your lower back closer to your partner, the right part of you in front moves forward. as joe says, somewhere between the buckle and the sternum.

solar plexus

[Joe]

I've been hoping they'd chime in lately.
Beetlejuice, Beeltejuice, Beetlejuice!

Re: following - My ballroom improved tremendously after I studied tango.
Interesting. I would think that dancing tango would de-train you from using the information provided in the communication below the man's center.

[samina]

Oh, wow. Something actually made sense. Thank you.

helps me, too... thanks to senor giannico for that one.

[Peaches]

solar plexusMaybe the same thing, but Sam's explanation makes more sense.

[Peaches]

Beetlejuice, Beeltejuice, Beetlejuice!I thought I'd seen that movie. Maybe not though, because the reference is totally lost on me.


Interesting. I would think that dancing tango would de-train you from using the information provided in the communication below the man's center.Which center? His AT one, or ballroom one? ;) But, yeah, that's my thought as well. Although I think there are probably other bits of following which can be improved by studying AT.

[Joe]

In the movie, he's summoned by saying his name three times. And maybe turning around or something? I don't recall.

[Peaches]

Huh. I guess I haven't seen it...still not ringing any bells or making any more sense.

[Zoopsia59]

There is debate on where the face should be (particularly in close embrace) but typically I see the follow's head turned toward her partner.

Your tango training will present some problems, the biggest probably being that your body will tend to want to remain on a foot. (I've watched tango follows new to social bronze foxtrot walk back for two, step side on three and attempt to ocho.) Then you run into issues of training your body to swing and hover, rise and lower, etc.

Re: following - My ballroom improved tremendously after I studied tango. If a man knows a pattern that I have never danced, assuming that pattern is leadable (and he is leading it) chances are I can follow it...

I keep trying to tell ballroom dancers that tango will improve their following, but they never seem to understand why it would be any different from following in ballroom. I try to explain that in AT the chances are VERY high that a leader will do something they've never followed because people make up their own steps and combinations all the time.

The better the leader, the more likely this will be the case. So you really have to FOLLOW, not just pull something you know out of your memory, no matter how long you've been doing AT. I've never even taken a formal ballroom class and i can follow most things that the average leaders have lead me in. Its so much more predictable that AT.

As far as trying to go into an ocho in the combination you describe, an AT follower who automatically tries to do a certain thing isn't following. She's anticipating. Or else, most likely, she's not used to ochos being led correctly.

There's a fundamental difference in the lead for the fox trot basic and the lead into an ocho and it has to do with the whether the leader changes his weight without changing hers. However, many AT leaders dont' really know how to change their weight without changing hers, so the followers get used to staying on that foot anyway because they know an ocho is coming because they've danced with that guy before.

In theory, the lead is different, but in practice, many AT leaders are actually giving a lead for a weight shift when they go into the ochos and the followers have gotten used to not changing anyway. Then the leader creates ochos with a lot of arm pushing rather than having her in the right place all along.

Because my partner mixes fox trot steps into his tango and vice versa, I have to pay close attention to what he is actually leading rather than assume anything. My problem in ballroom is the tendency to collect my feet between every step (even when I KNOW I'm doing ballroom at an actual ballroom dance)

[bastet]

As far as trying to go into an ocho in the combination you describe, an AT follower who automatically tries to do a certain thing isn't following. She's anticipating. Or else, most likely, she's not used to ochos being led correctly.

There's a fundamental difference in the lead for the fox trot basic and the lead into an ocho and it has to do with the whether the leader changes his weight without changing hers. However, many AT leaders dont' really know how to change their weight without changing hers, so the followers get used to staying on that foot anyway because they know an ocho is coming because they've danced with that guy before.

.

yes- the lead for a FT basic is certainly differnt, but I can tell you that since it is a "basic" pattern, the BR leader will probably NOT be leading that change of weight.

What I have found, having danced both BR and AT, is that in BR, since a FT basic is a memorized step pattern, it feels to me like the BR guys don't actually lead a weight change (of the ones I have danced BR with after taking up AT), thereby keeping the weight change in a FT basic fairly "quiet" (ie- not really transmitting it to the follower). IMO that is one reason a AT follow might want to do ochos at that point, she hasn't really been lead a weight change like she would if she's being correctly led in ochos, so her AT instinct takes over and she doesn't change weight, thereby putting the couple in to cross system.

I often get the same feeling dancing a rumba box with BR leaders, their weight change is very "quiet" and not actually led in BR, it was part of a pattern they learned so I would have to constantly remind myself they actually do want a weight change.

Conversely, almost every single beginning follow I have worked with who also dances BR, has a tendancy to make an automatic weight change when learning ochos, becasuse they are used to both the "quiet" change of weight from the leader (from BR) and also becasue they are still at the point where they are not following the torso, but are still following the feet, rotatin over one foot without stepping almost always confuses them.

[Zoopsia59]

In the movie, he's summoned by saying his name three times. And maybe turning around or something? I don't recall.

Oh, I thought saying his name 3 times sent him back to the underworld.

[Zoopsia59]

What I have found, having danced both BR and AT, is that in BR, since a FT basic is a memorized step pattern, it feels to me like the BR guys don't actually lead a weight change (of the ones I have danced BR with after taking up AT), thereby keeping the weight change in a FT basic fairly "quiet" (ie- not really transmitting it to the follower). IMO that is one reason a AT follow might want to do ochos at that point, she hasn't really been lead a weight change like she would if she's being correctly led in ochos, so her AT instinct takes over and she doesn't change weight, thereby putting the couple in to cross system.

Conversely, almost every single beginning follow I have worked with who also dances BR, has a tendancy to make an automatic weight change when learning ochos, becasuse they are used to both the "quiet" change of weight from the leader (from BR) and also becasue they are still at the point where they are not following the torso, but are still following the feet, rotatin over one foot without stepping almost always confuses them.

Hmmmm... I agree with you and disagree with you at the same time (ack, my head just exploded!)

Yes, the changes in ballroom tend to be very quiet. However, in my experience, it is harder for the AT leaders to NOT shift her weight when they change their own than it is for them to shift her accidentally. Therefore, the AT followers get led in an unintended weight change before the first ocho and they learn to ignore it. Then in fox trot, they continue to ignore it because, as you say, its even more subtle than the one they learned not to follow in AT.

So I disagree that the ballroom follower doing AT is doing the weight change because they are following the feet rather than the torso (ie: follower's error), because so many of the AT leaders aren't isolating their feet from their torso to begin with (ie: leader's error). The beginning AT followers who haven't had ballroom do the weight change as well because, in reality, the leader HAS lead a weight change, even though he didn't mean to.

<<IMO that is one reason a AT follow might want to do ochos at that point, she hasn't really been lead a weight change like she would if she's being correctly led in ochos>>

I'm not sure at all what lead into ocho's you are talking about now, because, to my mind, you've got it backwards. If she changes her weight, she can't do an ocho. She has to NOT change her weight as he changes his in order to be on the correct foot to go into the first ocho. If she is correctly led into an ocho, he WON'T change her weight as he changes his own.

Perhaps you are refering to a different entrance to ocho's than I am. For the sake of clarity in discussing when to change or not, I mean this pattern into an ocho (all directions mirrorable to start right instead of left):

Leader steps side on left foot taking follower to her right on her right foot.

Leader shifts his weight to his right foot keeping her on her right (no change for her)

Leader takes another step left requiring her to step with her left resulting in an ocho.

The amount of rotation comes from a combination of how side vs forward he steps plus his body rotation. But the crux of the whole thing is that he changes feet without her changing feet. Otherwise you aren't going to get an ocho out of it (you get something more like the fox trot step)

A tango follower will ignore a ballroom dancer leading the weight change for fox trot because she's trained herself to ignore the weight change in AT to do an ocho. But she shouldn't have to "ignore" it in the first place. The AT leader should be able to shift to his right foot without her feeling a shift to her left. But many of them don't know how to do that because of how classes get taught.

[bastet]

Hmmmm... I agree with you and disagree with you at the same time (ack, my head just exploded!)

Yes, the changes in ballroom tend to be very quiet. However, in my experience, it is harder for the AT leaders to NOT shift her weight when they change their own than it is for them to shift her accidentally. Therefore, the AT followers get led in an unintended weight change before the first ocho and they learn to ignore it. Then in fox trot, they continue to ignore it because, as you say, its even more subtle than the one they learned not to follow in AT.

So I disagree that the ballroom follower doing AT is doing the weight change because they are following the feet rather than the torso (ie: follower's error), because so many of the AT leaders aren't isolating their feet from their torso to begin with (ie: leader's error). The beginning AT followers who haven't had ballroom do the weight change as well because, in reality, the leader HAS lead a weight change, even though he didn't mean to.

<<IMO that is one reason a AT follow might want to do ochos at that point, she hasn't really been lead a weight change like she would if she's being correctly led in ochos>>

I'm not sure at all what lead into ocho's you are talking about now, because, to my mind, you've got it backwards. If she changes her weight, she can't do an ocho. She has to NOT change her weight as he changes his in order to be on the correct foot to go into the first ocho. If she is correctly led into an ocho, he WON'T change her weight as he changes his own.

Perhaps you are refering to a different entrance to ocho's than I am. For the sake of clarity in discussing when to change or not, I mean this pattern into an ocho (all directions mirrorable to start right instead of left):

Leader steps side on left foot taking follower to her right on her right foot.

Leader shifts his weight to his right foot keeping her on her right (no change for her)

Leader takes another step left requiring her to step with her left resulting in an ocho.

The amount of rotation comes from a combination of how side vs forward he steps plus his body rotation. But the crux of the whole thing is that he changes feet without her changing feet. Otherwise you aren't going to get an ocho out of it (you get something more like the fox trot step)

A tango follower will ignore a ballroom dancer leading the weight change for fox trot because she's trained herself to ignore the weight change in AT to do an ocho. But she shouldn't have to "ignore" it in the first place. The AT leader should be able to shift to his right foot without her feeling a shift to her left. But many of them don't know how to do that because of how classes get taught.

we are talking about the same thing, but I am probably not being very clear...

What I have found, is that yes, the leaders make all sorts of errors when they first learn to lead ochos, thereby leading unintended weight changes to the follow. But I've been trained by my very annoying other half who is very picky about things like that and wouldn't follow me when I first learned to do them til I managed to get my weight change "quiet" enough so I feel pretty good about my lead and I can lead them with no arms at all, and the BR follows tend to make that extra weight change no matter who leads them, him or me or Joe Newbie whose probably inadvertently causing the weight change. Like I said, they have learned, to some degree, that every time you are moved or take a step, you change weight, and they almost always shift their weight after the side step to the ocho, even when nothing as led or just the pivot was led. The still have residual instinct from BR interfering.

My opinion remains the same for BR leads leading follows who also know AT in BR dances...I did dance BR for 10 years, and continued to up til last year and so I've had quite a range of experiences with a various quality leads and don't find that, at least for the average social dancer, the leads are actually leading individual weight changes (say for a FT basic). I never expierenced a method of teaching in BR the emphasized anything like that so I don't see how the BR guys could be good at doing leads of individual weight changes when the AT guys are not, even though that is how AT is taught. A tango follow WILL ignore the weight change in BR becasue they aren't being led, they are being "performed" to some degree as part of a pattern, and so they end up in cross system, becasue he didn't lead the weight change so she would continue following him in the pattern he is doing (that was the confusing sentance up in my last post) and ends up assimilating the lead like she would if she were following AT...ignoring it becasue it either wasn't clear or "too soft"...so they end up in cross system.

[bastet]

hope that makes more sense now. I think we were both saying basically the same thing about how a follow might inadvertently get in to cross system while trying to dance BR.

[bastet]

Oh, I thought saying his name 3 times sent him back to the underworld.

i think it may have been both...I remember a scene with a zipper on the mouth to keep from saying the name....

[newbie]

I'm taking a series of AT privates with a ballroom teacher, somehow to check whether it's actually true that in AT you can lead everything and even if the follower does not know the steps it will be ok. She knows AT by videos and her studio offers AT classes but their students don't dance AT socially, the ones who try, try only once (or they leave for another teacher).

When leading her, basically nothing works. It's like the same signal has a different meaning, like tail wagging for a dog means it's happy and for a cat means it's pissed off. Making her go or stop by changing my weight and moving my torso has no effect. In pivots there is no delay between the rotation of her shoulders and the rotation of her hips (dissociation), while my usual AT partners turn their shoulders to keep facing my torso (with hips and feet not moving) until a certain point (maximum dissociation) and then pivot their hips, with the teacher nothing moves until a certain amount of Newtons is applied and then the whole body pivots.

Only with very firm and powerful shoulders and arms can I move her. Yep, this is the point, I have to move her. On the opposite, when dancing with my usual AT partners, I'm not spending more energy than if I was dancing alone.

The series is not over yet, three more privates to come, but for the moment my opinion about the "a good leader can lead anything" is that it's not completely true, some AT culture is still required from the follower.

[Heather2007]

When leading her, basically nothing works. It's like the same signal has a different meaning, like tail wagging for a dog means it's happy and for a cat means it's pissed off....
.....but for the moment my opinion about the "a good leader can lead anything" is that it's not completely true, some AT culture is still required from the follower.

My bold - Wrong. It is true. Especially when that lead is assisted by a few kind words of instruction. Keeping schtum about what she's not doing helps nobody and frustrates everybody.

[bordertangoman]

I'm taking a series of AT privates with a ballroom teacher, somehow to check whether it's actually true that in AT you can lead everything and even if the follower does not know the steps it will be ok. She knows AT by videos and her studio offers AT classes but their students don't dance AT socially, the ones who try, try only once (or they leave for another teacher).

When leading her, basically nothing works. It's like the same signal has a different meaning, like tail wagging for a dog means it's happy and for a cat means it's pissed off. Making her go or stop by changing my weight and moving my torso has no effect. In pivots there is no delay between the rotation of her shoulders and the rotation of her hips (dissociation), while my usual AT partners turn their shoulders to keep facing my torso (with hips and feet not moving) until a certain point (maximum dissociation) and then pivot their hips, with the teacher nothing moves until a certain amount of Newtons is applied and then the whole body pivots.

Only with very firm and powerful shoulders and arms can I move her. Yep, this is the point, I have to move her. On the opposite, when dancing with my usual AT partners, I'm not spending more energy than if I was dancing alone.

The series is not over yet, three more privates to come, but for the moment my opinion about the "a good leader can lead anything" is that it's not completely true, some AT culture is still required from the follower.

Its Liza Doolittle and Professor Henry Higgins all over again

[Peaches]

Its Liza Doolittle and Professor Henry Higgins all over again"I'm a good girl, I am. Washed my face and hands before I come, I did."

[Joe]

My bold - Wrong. It is true. Especially when that lead is assisted by a few kind words of instruction. Keeping schtum about what she's not doing helps nobody and frustrates everybody.
What happened to the whole "no teaching on the dance floor" business?

[Peaches]

Opinions (seem to) vary.

[newbie]

Especially when that lead is assisted by a few kind words of instruction. Keeping schtum about what she's not doing helps nobody and frustrates everybody.

She is the teacher. I'm not supposed to instruct her. She, on the other sides, "corrects" me a lot.

Its Liza Doolittle and Professor Henry Higgins all over again

But yes, I can try to whisper a mantra, like Only in Spain does it Rain in Plain.

[dancinrina]

My 2, probably somewhat off, cents: I've dance standard for a while and recently started smooth and AT. Strangely, my ballroom experience is entirely useless to AT. The first thing I did when we partnered up was take a standard position at which point my teacher began to convulse while attempts to not laugh too hard. The only thing that I can say helped is, I've always been excellent at following and, for reasons unknown, taking cues from AT leads is easier than from ballroom. I think it may have something to do with the more intimate nature of the posture. However, I do think that some form of AT culture is require to follow simply because the steps are so different from almost every other dance and it's very had to try to concentrate on steps and feel for the leads especially when they're not strong.

[Heather2007]

She is the teacher. I'm not supposed to instruct her. She, on the other sides, "corrects" me a lot.

And teacher's don't make mistakes? Oy Vay!! We only stop learning when we're dead. Tell her what she should be doing to make your leading more comfortable and her following more attractive. Is she criticising you "a lot" on the dancefloor or in the classroom?

[Heather2007]

What happened to the whole "no teaching on the dance floor" business?

Three words: Goose. Gander. Good. If his teacher is constantly "correcting" him on the dancefloor then he should do same. Democracy young man, democracy.

[bastet]

My 2, probably somewhat off, cents: I've dance standard for a while and recently started smooth and AT. Strangely, my ballroom experience is entirely useless to AT. The first thing I did when we partnered up was take a standard position at which point my teacher began to convulse while attempts to not laugh too hard. The only thing that I can say helped is, I've always been excellent at following and, for reasons unknown, taking cues from AT leads is easier than from ballroom. I think it may have something to do with the more intimate nature of the posture. However, I do think that some form of AT culture is require to follow simply because the steps are so different from almost every other dance and it's very had to try to concentrate on steps and feel for the leads especially when they're not strong.

Exactly- although some of the basic ideas about lead and follow carried over for me from ballroom (because I learned from a teacher who taught the patterns as body movement, lead and follow, rather than just patterns)- I still had to pitch most everything out when I left ballroom for AT...yes...left like a relationship...posture being the first, foremost and longest battle. So my ballroon experience wasn't a total waste, but it created a ton of problems that I would have never thought when I first started.

And I think you have made another point on the topic I was speaking of yesterday (putting it much more eloquently than I was!). It is different, it does feel different, and just because you can follow in one doesn't mean you are automatically good at the other BR vs AT. A follow assimilates the leads differently in each dance (with the added frustration, of course, of leads who may not be leading propoerly) and as you've found, they require training or. as you say, exposure to the "culture" of the dance.

[bastet]

I'm taking a series of AT privates with a ballroom teacher, somehow to check whether it's actually true that in AT you can lead everything and even if the follower does not know the steps it will be ok. She knows AT by videos and her studio offers AT classes but their students don't dance AT socially, the ones who try, try only once (or they leave for another teacher).

When leading her, basically nothing works. It's like the same signal has a different meaning, like tail wagging for a dog means it's happy and for a cat means it's pissed off. Making her go or stop by changing my weight and moving my torso has no effect. In pivots there is no delay between the rotation of her shoulders and the rotation of her hips (dissociation), while my usual AT partners turn their shoulders to keep facing my torso (with hips and feet not moving) until a certain point (maximum dissociation) and then pivot their hips, with the teacher nothing moves until a certain amount of Newtons is applied and then the whole body pivots.

Only with very firm and powerful shoulders and arms can I move her. Yep, this is the point, I have to move her. On the opposite, when dancing with my usual AT partners, I'm not spending more energy than if I was dancing alone.

The series is not over yet, three more privates to come, but for the moment my opinion about the "a good leader can lead anything" is that it's not completely true, some AT culture is still required from the follower.

This is interesting, and bears some resemblance to something I experienced on the opposite side...I was trading some dance info with my old ballroom teacher, and they wanted to learn some AT...and though this person is a really good BR dancer, they unfortuneately were of the opinion that we could just "show some steps" and lickity-split- instant tango dancer....so that the ideas we covered generlaly got powerhoused though, without the nuance and subtlety (partly becasue the embrace was still ballroom, and that doesn't work well for leading AT)...

So I'd be interested to hear how it turns out...it still seems in keeping with what I was saying yesterday, about the following being dependant on what you're used to. Please keep us posted.

I don't agree you can teach this person to follow during your lessons. You've already entered in to a relationship with them in your privates (I'm assuming) with you as the student...I doubt an instructor would take it very well that their following is based on BR and not an understanding of lead and follow in AT, escpecially if you are paying them for instruction.

[Me]

I'm taking a series of AT privates with a ballroom teacher, somehow to check whether it's actually true that in AT you can lead everything and even if the follower does not know the steps it will be ok. She knows AT by videos and her studio offers AT classes but their students don't dance AT socially, the ones who try, try only once (or they leave for another teacher).

This could be bad. While exploring options for ballroom dance certification I found some of the absolute worst AT syllabi out there, and the accompanying instructional videos were nothing short of shameful. In short, AT elements were combined into syllabus patterns and danced with ballroom technique by ballroom dancers who obviously had no tango training! There is a possibility your ballroom instructor may only have in-house lesson plan training from an instructor working from a ballroom contextualized AT syllabus. If this is the case, pre-conceived ideas of steps and patterns would handicap her ability to follow you, and any corrections she would offer you would either be not applicable, or just flat wrong.

Here is a discrete test. I think at the beginning of your next lesson you should say, "When I dance tango, I try to model my movement after [Gavito, Chicho, Nito]. I am curious - Who is your tango role model?"

When leading her, basically nothing works. It's like the same signal has a different meaning, like tail wagging for a dog means it's happy and for a cat means it's pissed off. Making her go or stop by changing my weight and moving my torso has no effect. In pivots there is no delay between the rotation of her shoulders and the rotation of her hips (dissociation), while my usual AT partners turn their shoulders to keep facing my torso (with hips and feet not moving) until a certain point (maximum dissociation) and then pivot their hips, with the teacher nothing moves until a certain amount of Newtons is applied and then the whole body pivots.

Only with very firm and powerful shoulders and arms can I move her. Yep, this is the point, I have to move her. On the opposite, when dancing with my usual AT partners, I'm not spending more energy than if I was dancing alone.

The series is not over yet, three more privates to come, but for the moment my opinion about the "a good leader can lead anything" is that it's not completely true, some AT culture is still required from the follower.

Assuming you were giving her a good lead, this causes me to strongly question this instructor's following skills. You shouldn't have to 'put' her anywhere. She should understand she is following the dance, not the man, and that the man is creating a space and opportunity for her, not muscling her into position. We wait for the opportunity and then we take it - We do not sit there like lumps and expect the man to 'place' us anywhere! It makes men miserable to have to constantly carry us or fling us around.

[Peaches]

A question for the other ladies who have danced both: Do you find the leads for weight changes to be more subtle in BR or AT? Or are they just different?

I ask because although (with a competent leader) I have absolutely zero problems following AT weight changes (well, practically zero), I can't feel BR weight changes to save my bloody life. I don't know if I'm just so focused on other things that I can't even begin to devote mental energy to it, or the lead for them is something I've been trained to ignore (thinking of movement of the guy below the high connection point), or they're just more subtle, or I'm just slow.

[Peaches]

Assuming you were giving her a good lead, this causes me to strongly question this instructor's following skills. You shouldn't have to 'put' her anywhere. She should understand she is following the dance, not the man, and that the man is creating a space and opportunity for her, not muscling her into position. We wait for the opportunity and then we take it - We do not sit there like lumps and expect the man to 'place' us anywhere! It makes men miserable to have to constantly carry us or fling us around.Are you speaking specifically of AT, or BR, or both? Espcially the creating space bit.

[Me]

Are you speaking specifically of AT, or BR, or both? Espcially the creating space bit.

Both, actually! :)

I think many dancers on the ballroom forum would agree when they follow, they are waiting for that cue to move. They don't want to be thrown, placed, pushed, tugged or jerked. I think they would also agree that bad following is, "Wait for the man to throw you into step one and then, ah, there is your cue to run mindlessly through the rest of some unleadable pattern."

[bastet]

A question for the other ladies who have danced both: Do you find the leads for weight changes to be more subtle in BR or AT? Or are they just different?

I ask because although (with a competent leader) I have absolutely zero problems following AT weight changes (well, practically zero), I can't feel BR weight changes to save my bloody life. I don't know if I'm just so focused on other things that I can't even begin to devote mental energy to it, or the lead for them is something I've been trained to ignore (thinking of movement of the guy below the high connection point), or they're just more subtle, or I'm just slow.

I've danced both. I find BR weight changes harder to follow, mainly because, like I said yesterday, the average social ballroom dancer has learned a pattern, and weight change the lead thinks is there because its part of the pattern (and you're dancing with him, so you much know the pattern, right?) may not be there for you (like the S-S-QQ (feet together and change weight on a FT basic). I know they are there and I have to remind myself to follow them if I dance BR with someone. It's like they said, I'm used to following AT leads now and I've come to expect a lead for a weight change, since I'm not relying on a pattern to get me through.

[bastet]

Are you speaking specifically of AT, or BR, or both? Espcially the creating space bit.


I think part of the point though is that she probably doesn't understand the dance. She has learned from video and is following with regard to BR skills, not tango skills.

So yes, if she understood tango, she shouldn't have to be muscled in to position....

[Peaches]

I think many dancers on the ballroom forum would agree when they follow, they are waiting for that cue to move. They don't want to be thrown, placed, pushed, tugged or jerked. I think they would also agree that bad following is, "Wait for the man to throw you into step one and then, ah, there is your cue to run mindless through the rest of some unleadable pattern."

Understood, and agreed.

I guess this kind of comes to where I always get hung up in BR following. (Well, Standard. I think my latin/rhythm/other has improved with AT.) I don't think I wait for the man to push me into the step and then go through the pattern. But lessons usually devolved into:

Him: OK, that was better, but you had no energy. I want you to move next time.
Me: I was willing to move. I was waiting for you.
Him: Can you tell where I want you to be going?
Me: Yes.
Him: So GO there.
Me: Yeah, but...shouldn't I be waiting for you? Who's following?

If I waited for him, I was told I had no energy. If I moved to his satisfaction, it felt horrible to me, just like running off by myself (albeit backwards, and in heels).

I just don't get it. Who's leading? Who's waiting for who? (Whom?)

[Peaches]

I think part of the point though is that she probably doesn't understand the dance. She has learned from video and is following with regard to BR skills, not tango skills.

So yes, if she understood tango, she shouldn't have to be muscled in to position....Oh, of course. I was asking, not in the context of Newbie's situation, exactly, but more on a theoretical situation.

[Peaches]

I've danced both. I find BR weight changes harder to follow, mainly because, like I said yesterday, the average social ballroom dancer has learned a pattern, and weight change the lead thinks is there because its part of the pattern (and you're dancing with him, so you much know the pattern, right?) may not be there for you (like the S-S-QQ (feet together and change weight on a FT basic). I know they are there and I have to remind myself to follow them if I dance BR with someone. It's like they said, I'm used to following AT leads now and I've come to expect a lead for a weight change, since I'm not relying on a pattern to get me through.OK. What if we take "average social dancer" out of the equation, and assume we're talking about someone who knows what they're doing. (Average social dancing is a whole exercise in making something, ANYTHING work sometimes. :) )

[bastet]

Both, actually! :)

I think many dancers on the ballroom forum would agree when they follow, they are waiting for that cue to move. They don't want to be thrown, placed, pushed, tugged or jerked. I think they would also agree that bad following is, "Wait for the man to throw you into step one and then, ah, there is your cue to run mindlessly through the rest of some unleadable pattern."

sure- I agree on this to a great degree, but there are degrees and degrees. Again, BR following techniques are different from AT and the follow may assimilate leads differently.

Also- I've said before that I haven't ever seen BR taught at the level of individual weight change leads. They do have patterns that are taught, even though you may be taught the body movement lead and follow of the pattern. A BR who has never seen or danced a pretty complicated pattern, but who has danced and understand all the smaller elements that make up the pattern will most likely be fine, and no one wants to be manhandled through something....but what about a newbie...just learned bronze and someone tries to take them through a gold pattern...do you think that could be done without some "extra emphasis" from the leader if it requires body positions a follow isn't familiar with? Admittedly, a leader who knows that much should also know to not lead something much beyond the follows skills and so again, manhandling shouldn't some in to the picture.

[bastet]

OK. What if we take "average social dancer" out of the equation, and assume we're talking about someone who knows what they're doing. (Average social dancing is a whole exercise in making something, ANYTHING work sometimes. :) )

I haven't danced with a really fabulous social lead in years, so am not sure.

Off the top of my head, I'd say someone who is really good in BR is probably going to take you with them anyway, whereever they are going. However, my other half had a good point and said that it probably happens not because they are leading an individual weight change, but that they are adept enough at recognizing and compensating for a skill in their partner that they see is not there without resorting to heavy handling.

So- I'd say the weight change in BR is danced more like the subtle weight change in AT (the one you probably ignore), which is why the BR ladies tend to make the weight change with the lead when they first learn ochos, even though he is trying to be "quiet" and keep them in place...and also why the ladies who mainly dance AT "ignore" the BR weight change....just another reiteration of what I said yesterday, I guess....but you might have a better chance of following it with someone better than the average social dancer.

[samina]

Understood, and agreed.

I guess this kind of comes to where I always get hung up in BR following. (Well, Standard. I think my latin/rhythm/other has improved with AT.) I don't think I wait for the man to push me into the step and then go through the pattern. But lessons usually devolved into:

Him: OK, that was better, but you had no energy. I want you to move next time.
Me: I was willing to move. I was waiting for you.
Him: Can you tell where I want you to be going?
Me: Yes.
Him: So GO there.
Me: Yeah, but...shouldn't I be waiting for you? Who's following?

If I waited for him, I was told I had no energy. If I moved to his satisfaction, it felt horrible to me, just like running off by myself (albeit backwards, and in heels).

I just don't get it. Who's leading? Who's waiting for who? (Whom?)

i think you're used to a "stickier" follow in AT as compared with a far more prompt following technique required in ballroom. the instant you feel his weight move, you have to really move in order to make space for him, otherwise he has nowhere to go. this must be because of the depth of the swing movement and the coverage across the floor as compared with what is done in AT. the follower's part in ballroom is extremely active, and that's probly what makes you feel like you're running off by yourself. you're not tho, really... just creating space for him, inviting him to come... he'll be right along after you. :)

[samina]

peach, i remember my first paradigm shift around how active i needed to be... my instructor started saying, "show me what you want the move to be..." i thought, "aren't i just supposed to follow *your* idea of what the move should be?"

turns out... no. the follower determines a lot, because the one going backward has the power to set depth and distance covered by how much she invites the man toward her. same thing in promenade... the lady needs to be very active to continue inviting the man forward into his movement. otherwise...he just can't go anywhere.

[Peaches]

OK. That's it! From now on, you're the one explaining BR to me, Sam. Cuz when you say things, they make sense. :)

[Zoopsia59]

my opinion about the "a good leader can lead anything" is that it's not completely true, some AT culture is still required from the follower.

I agree. A good AT leader can lead a good AT follower in just about anything. But someone who has no idea how AT is led (ie: follow the body and the arms become superfluous) still won't follow even simple things. The follower also has to know that she has a responsibility to stay with the leader and go where he goes even if he doesn't muscle her there.

In AT, the leader doesn't take the follower with him, he INVITES the follower to go with him. The frame created by the arms that keeps the couple together is much less important in AT. Much of the non-stagy stuff in AT can be led without the people even touching. I think BR people would find this a strange concept.

So its not true that a good tango leader can lead ANYONE in anything. The follower has to know how to follow even if she doesn't know the steps. But BR followers are not taught following in the same way that AT dancers are. (or should be... I'm discovering that many of the AT followers around here weren't taught how to follow either... they just learned steps along with the leaders)

[Peaches]

I haven't danced with a really fabulous social lead in years, so am not sure.

Off the top of my head, I'd say someone who is really good in BR is probably going to take you with them anyway, whereever they are going. However, my other half had a good point and said that it probably happens not because they are leading an individual weight change, but that they are adept enough at recognizing and compensating for a skill in their partner that they see is not there without resorting to heavy handling.

So- I'd say the weight change in BR is danced more like the subtle weight change in AT (the one you probably ignore), which is why the BR ladies tend to make the weight change with the lead when they first learn ochos, even though he is trying to be "quiet" and keep them in place...and also why the ladies who mainly dance AT "ignore" the BR weight change....just another reiteration of what I said yesterday, I guess....but you might have a better chance of following it with someone better than the average social dancer.Oh sorry, Zoo, I hadn't seen this post. You make very good points about the compensating, I hadn't thought of that.

And, for whatever reason, I missed this point of yours in the discussion a bit earlier. But it could go a bit to explain some of why I've got BR following issues.

[Steve Pastor]

"If I moved to his satisfaction, it felt horrible to me, just like running off by myself (albeit backwards, and in heels)."

I love it when I read this sort of thing from someone who dances AT!

I don't consider myself to be a "ballroom" dancer, but I have had the lessons, and I mostly do dances that have a "basic step". You guys correct me if I'm wrong, but for the most part, let's say well over 90% of the time you use the same "basic step".
If it's quick quick slow, slow, that's what you do.
Maybe people don't think about this anymore because some of you "don't count".

This means, to me, that you pretty much keep taking steps in almost all dances. I do two step, waltz, night club, WCS, a bit of cha cha, etc. Again I don't see myself as "ballroom", but the differences are mostly stylistic/technical.

Why learn to "lead" a weight change when your parnter is supposed to be stepping?
AT is different in that we are taught to NOT count on there being a next step.
Pausing, too, is often taught in AT lessons. Women are admonished to "wait".
I don't think I've EVER heard that in another dance.
Please, correct me if I'm wrong.

[Zoopsia59]

peach, i remember my first paradigm shift around how active i needed to be... my instructor started saying, "show me what you want the move to be..." i thought, "aren't i just supposed to follow *your* idea of what the move should be?".

Ironically, your reply is almost what I sometimes tell followers when I'm teaching AT. They ask "what's my step?", and I say "You follow him", and dont' show them their step right off the bat. Then both the leader and the follower have to FEEL some things first about the move. Instead of her going where she's supposed to regardless of what he leads, she goes where she feels him leading her, and he learns better how to lead it.

She also finds out really fast that she has no idea how to follow when she doesn't know the step in advance. Then I can also work on what she's doing wrong that makes it difficult for her to feel a lead rather than recall or guess a lead. (I keep trying to tell them... you can't follow with your brain)

When I'm trying to learn to lead something, and I use a more experienced follow to work it out, they sometimes ask "What do you want me to do?" and I say "I'm not going to tell you what I'm leading... if you can't follow it then I'm not leading it right". If I can't get it after a few tries, I eventually tell them what I'm trying to do and then they can help me figure out what's wrong with my lead. But only an experienced follow can usually tell the leader what's missing or wrong. A beginner follow often has too many errors of her own going on and she doesn't know what she needs to feel.

In classes that I'm taking as a leader, I tell whoever is following me that if I don't lead it right, then I don't want them to do the step even though they know what it is because the teacher showed both. Consequently, by the end of the exercise, I am leading it and they tell me that I'm the best leader they danced with in the class so far. It makes sense, because I followed in AT for almost 3 years before I started leading. I had a head start on the guys taking the class as leaders. Many of the moves I already knew as a follower.

[Peaches]

Um...I wouldn't say that 90%+ of the time you do a basic. Perhaps a bit more for things like cha or NC2S, but not for something like Foxtrot or waltz or something.

The odd thing is, I get the impression that a lot of BR people would say that women are supposed to wait--wait for the man, wait for the lead, don't do patterns, wait for the weight change. BR people, I'm sure, don't sanction the girl running off on her own any more than AT people do.

But there's got to be some fundamental difference between waiting, moving and creating space between BR and AT. Because we're all saying much the same thing, and using the same words, but there are differences. I just can't figure them out... (Stupid when it comes to BR, since...)

Edit to add: After a bit more thought...maybe. Not so much The Basic, but really basic pre-bronze figures. A couple of simple figures, only a handful of different timings. So perhaps you're on to something. I just think of dancing The Basic repeatedly as more of a Smooth thing, instead of a Standard thing. *shrug*

[Zoopsia59]

I get the impression that a lot of BR people would say that women are supposed to wait--wait for the man, wait for the lead, don't do patterns, wait for the weight change. BR people, I'm sure, don't sanction the girl running off on her own any more than AT people do.

But there's got to be some fundamental difference between waiting, moving and creating space between BR and AT. Because we're all saying much the same thing, and using the same words, but there are differences. I just can't figure them out... (Stupid when it comes to BR, since...)

I think the fundamental difference is HOW AT is led. BR dancers may not recognize an AT lead because it is so different from what BR dancers are taught as frame and lead. There's a great video on You Tube of Marianna Gallasi and her partner doing a demo at the NYC tago fest a few years ago. In the beginning they start dancing and she follows him for a few measures without them touching and then for a few with only her hand on his chest.

I have this mental image of a ballroom follower in the same situation standing still and watching the leader wondering what the heck he thinks he's doing!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEfCDWLwp-4

I took one of the hardest and best private lessons of my life with Mariana based on this video. I had seen the demo at the festival, but I hated her outfit so much at the time that I didn't realize until I saw the video recently how much I loved her dancing.

(watch at about 1:25 where she almost kicks a photographer... ouch!)

[Peaches]

Or in HOW it's followed. ;) But since I only dance the follower's part at this point, it's where my focus is.

Do you, dancing both roles, feel the difference is more from the leader's side, the follower's or both?

[Steve Pastor]

Reading all of this, and noting the differences (almost, it seems at times, subliminal) among dances makes me appreciate even more what the people on SYTYCD go through every week. Can you imagine krumping and dancing lyrical on the same show, or Vienesse Waltz and Quickstep?

[samina]

OK. That's it! From now on, you're the one explaining BR to me, Sam. Cuz when you say things, they make sense. :)

Lol...glad I can help. Maybe we're just puzzled by the same things... :)

[jennyisdancing]

"If I moved to his satisfaction, it felt horrible to me, just like running off by myself (albeit backwards, and in heels)."

I love it when I read this sort of thing from someone who dances AT!

I don't consider myself to be a "ballroom" dancer, but I have had the lessons, and I mostly do dances that have a "basic step". You guys correct me if I'm wrong, but for the most part, let's say well over 90% of the time you use the same "basic step".
If it's quick quick slow, slow, that's what you do.
Maybe people don't think about this anymore because some of you "don't count".

This means, to me, that you pretty much keep taking steps in almost all dances. I do two step, waltz, night club, WCS, a bit of cha cha, etc. Again I don't see myself as "ballroom", but the differences are mostly stylistic/technical.

Why learn to "lead" a weight change when your parnter is supposed to be stepping?
AT is different in that we are taught to NOT count on there being a next step.
Pausing, too, is often taught in AT lessons. Women are admonished to "wait".
I don't think I've EVER heard that in another dance.
Please, correct me if I'm wrong.

No, you're right. I am no ballroom expert like some others here, but I have the same impression. Leading in most other dances seems to me that the leader initiates the move and the direction, but the follower is supposed to know her footwork. In some dances like salsa, I've been told that I should keep my basic step going if not led otherwise.

Only dance I know of besides AT where weight changes are often led, is West Coast Swing. WCS is an interesting combo - on one hand, there are basic steps and rhythms that the follower is expected to know and perform, yet at other times the leader does lead a weight change and the follower can't anticipate it. I definitely have heard followers told "wait for the lead" in WCS.

I think the fundamental difference is HOW AT is led. BR dancers may not recognize an AT lead because it is so different from what BR dancers are taught as frame and lead. There's a great video on You Tube of Marianna Gallasi and her partner doing a demo at the NYC tago fest a few years ago. In the beginning they start dancing and she follows him for a few measures without them touching. I have this mental image of a ballroom follower in the same situation standing still and watching the leader wondering what the heck he thinks he's doing!

Funny thing is, my AT training has really helped with this. I've been out doing some other dances that occasionally involve dancing apart (hustle and salsa) and the leaders seem amazed that I can follow them when there is no physical connection. I just follow their upper body like AT and it works pretty well. :)

[bastet]

"If I moved to his satisfaction, it felt horrible to me, just like running off by myself (albeit backwards, and in heels)."

I love it when I read this sort of thing from someone who dances AT!

I don't consider myself to be a "ballroom" dancer, but I have had the lessons, and I mostly do dances that have a "basic step". You guys correct me if I'm wrong, but for the most part, let's say well over 90% of the time you use the same "basic step".
If it's quick quick slow, slow, that's what you do.
Maybe people don't think about this anymore because some of you "don't count".

This means, to me, that you pretty much keep taking steps in almost all dances. I do two step, waltz, night club, WCS, a bit of cha cha, etc. Again I don't see myself as "ballroom", but the differences are mostly stylistic/technical.

Why learn to "lead" a weight change when your parnter is supposed to be stepping?
AT is different in that we are taught to NOT count on there being a next step.
Pausing, too, is often taught in AT lessons. Women are admonished to "wait".
I don't think I've EVER heard that in another dance.
Please, correct me if I'm wrong.

No- I think you've got a point. Ther eisn't any other dance I can think of where there are extensive possibilities of weight changes for one or the other leaving one partner in place with the other making a motion, or causing a motion in a person without stepping (torso rotation). Also, there's only two places i ever experienced the concept of being on the same foot as my leader in BR, a body line (throwaway or something like that) and in Samba during something my teacher classed a machiche (sp?) otherwise the steps are often mirror images or at the very least (think silver and gold) in parallel. Needles to say, cross foot (same foot system) is so predominant in AT and SOMEONE has to take an extrra weight change the partner doesn't to get there. It's a very forgein concept to BR people I've seen take up the dance. And the wait thing, ladies are always asking me about what to do....I always tell them to think of every step as the last step, but always be ready to move...and don't freak out when the leader stops. It's a valid part of the dance, the lead could have lost the music, or there's a big traffic jam...and so on...it's a hard concpept because for most ladies stopping means "you screwed up".

[samina]

"If I moved to his satisfaction, it felt horrible to me, just like running off by myself (albeit backwards, and in heels)."

I love it when I read this sort of thing from someone who dances AT!

I don't consider myself to be a "ballroom" dancer, but I have had the lessons, and I mostly do dances that have a "basic step". You guys correct me if I'm wrong, but for the most part, let's say well over 90% of the time you use the same "basic step".
...
Why learn to "lead" a weight change when your parnter is supposed to be stepping?
AT is different in that we are taught to NOT count on there being a next step.
Pausing, too, is often taught in AT lessons. Women are admonished to "wait".
I don't think I've EVER heard that in another dance.
Please, correct me if I'm wrong.

Yep, definitely off. :)

As a BR follow, I have no assumption as to what comes next, I must wait for the lead in his body, and there is no such thing as a basic step that we just keep doing.

[bastet]

Or in HOW it's followed. ;) But since I only dance the follower's part at this point, it's where my focus is.

Do you, dancing both roles, feel the difference is more from the leader's side, the follower's or both?

both. definitely. If you think of all this discussion as boiling down to the fact that we dance from where are current training emphasis is, it has to be both.

[samina]

I just think of dancing The Basic repeatedly as more of a Smooth thing, instead of a Standard thing. *shrug*
My impression as well. As a Standard dancer, it doesn't apply. But when I do Smooth steps at socials, seems to repeat all over the floor. ;)

[Zoopsia59]

other dances that occasionally involve dancing apart (hustle and salsa) and the leaders seem amazed that I can follow them when there is no physical connection. I just follow their upper body like AT and it works pretty well. :)

Hustle though still has connection in the hands most of the time right? Even when you let go to turn, you find each other again as quickly as possible. (In fact, I think I was taught to trail my hand along the guy's back in certain turns so he know where it is when we get around) I learned hustle by going to discos in the late 70's. I haven't actually had a hustle class or been "taught" the dance.

[Me]

Only dance I know of besides AT where weight changes are often led, is West Coast Swing. WCS is an interesting combo - on one hand, there are basic steps and rhythms that the follower is expected to know and perform, yet at other times the leader does lead a weight change and the follower can't anticipate it. I definitely have heard followers told "wait for the lead" in WCS.


I love watching WCS but I hate it when people ask me to dance.

I always get bossed through the most convoluted, ridiculous patterns imaginable while the man alternates between telling me what to do and blaming mistakes on me because I am "not following." Oh and let's not forget his awkward laughter.

I now refuse a WCS when asked by somebody I do not know. I always ask if we can please dance something else to the music. Sorry, but I've just had my fill over the years. The dance feels terrible and I am always, always made to feel that it was all my fault. The lead walks away disappointed and embarrassed. Both of us feel badly for different reasons.

[samina]

Hustle though still has connection in the hands most of the time right? Even when you let go to turn, you find each other again as quickly as possible. (In fact, I think I was taught to trail my hand along the guy's back in certain turns so he know where it is when we get around) I learned hustle by going to discos in the late 70's. I haven't actually had a hustle class or been "taught" the dance.

sometimes my fave hustle dancer and i dance without hands... he'll lead every single move & sequence he'd do with his hands, but there is no body contact. it is awesomely fun. :)

[Peaches]

sometimes my fave hustle dancer and i dance without hands... he'll lead every single move & sequence he'd do with his hands, but there is no body contact. it is awesomely fun. :)Now this I wanna see! That sounds awesome!

[bastet]

Yep, definitely off. :)

As a BR follow, I have no assumption as to what comes next, I must wait for the lead in his body, and there is no such thing as a basic step that we just keep doing.

I always said that too, when dancing BR and first took up AT. However, after a while in AT, I REALLY learned exactly what that meant.

I beleive it was a true statement then, and still is, if I were to go out BR dancing I dont' know what they'll lead or when....but it means something a little different in AT and I don't think it's something explainable in words and I wouldn't call them both the same kind of following now, having had extensive training in both areas.

[Zoopsia59]

the follower determines a lot, because the one going backward has the power to set depth and distance covered by how much she invites the man toward her.

Ah, now this is very different from AT. We were having a discussion somewhere about the follower falling away from the leader, not just by moving at the wrong time, but by taking a larger step than he wanted and letting the distance between them change. In AT the leader does not expect the follower to determine the depth of the step. He should expect her to fully reach based on how far he lets her go

She can't see back there, and milongas can be very crowded. He determines how far she travels backwards and she has to be ready to really MOVE if he wants to take a big step, or keep it shallow if he realizes there's someone in the way (or is just taking a small step for styling.)

Also, the quick steps tend to be shallower, and the leader determines when to do quicks and slows. They don't have to be doing quicks and slows simultaneously, but he still makes the determination for each of them. (The follower should not do a quick,quick resulting in a change of feet if it isn't led, but his lead can require her to do one even where he might not). The quicks and slows can be put in with much more variation than seems typical for the ballroom dance rhythms and patterns, so the follower has to be ready for either and the step size may adjust accordingly.

[Peaches]

I love watching WCS but I hate it when people ask me to dance.

I always get bossed through the most convoluted, ridiculous patterns imaginable while the man alternates between telling me what to do and blaming mistakes on me because I am "not following." Oh and let's not forget his awkward laughter.

I now refuse a WCS when asked by somebody I do not know. I always ask if we can please dance something else to the music. Sorry, but I've just had my fill over the years. The dance feels terrible and I am always, always made to feel that it was all my fault. The lead walks away disappointed and embarrassed. Both of us feel badly for different reasons.I completely and totally understand this. Until very recently (last couple of months) I refuse to dance WCS, for the exact same reasons. It was just an exercise in feeling like crap about myself and my dancing, and I just wasn't willing to do that.

I'm tempted to say, though, that you haven't found the right leader. An AT friend, who's been dancing country and WCS for years, encouraged me to dance a WCS with him. I was wary, but since we've got a good learning relationship on the floor in AT, I went along with it. And i loved it. I found that he was good enough to cover for my mistakes and make something out of them, and to keep it simple until I was comfortable with more advanced things. I still screw up, and he'll verbally lead things (this is one place where I don't mind), but he's never judgemental. And, because he's comfortable enough to cover for my screw-ups, I've never had the feeling that I've "ruined" the dance...I just hijacked a bit. :)

Now, I'm really intrigued by it, and I think I want to start taking some WCS lessons. Oh jeebus!

[samina]

I always said that too, when dancing BR and first took up AT. However, after a while in AT, I REALLY learned exactly what that meant.

I beleive it was a true statement then, and still is, if I were to go out BR dancing I dont' know what they'll lead or when....but it means something a little different in AT and I don't think it's something explainable in words and I wouldn't call them both the same kind of following now, having had extensive training in both areas.

i haven't dance AT but have watched the chain-reaction of lead-follow energy, and it just appears to me to be stickier -- i like that word for it -- with a necessarily longer delay in the woman's response. can't comment more than that as haven't done the dance. :)

in BR, including latin, one must wait, but the response must be very prompt. so, the follower can/must still wait for the weight changes, but when the information comes, perhaps the follower launches more quickly...

[Peaches]

i haven't dance AT but have watched the chain-reaction of lead-follow energy, and it just appears to me to be stickier -- i like that word for it -- with a necessarily longer delay in the woman's response. can't comment more than that as haven't done the dance. :)

in BR, including latin, one must wait, but the response must be very prompt. so, the follower can/must still wait for the weight changes, but when the information comes, perhaps the follower launches more quickly...See, now, I like the term stickiness, but I don't think I'd say there's a delay in the follower's response. I think it comes down to what response happens immediately.

In AT, the free leg responds immediately, but the center is kept still until...I hesitate to say "the last moment"...well, until the leader asks for a change of weight. Perhaps this is the sticky delay you're seeing and thinking of. But the thing is, the response and the follow has already begun...but there's no movement.

As opposed to, if I'm reading things correctly, one of the first responses of a BR follower (speaking of standard) is to get that center moving. (Did I get that right?) It isn't really a faster response, but the movment looks sooner, perhaps.

Er...???

[samina]

As opposed to, if I'm reading things correctly, one of the first responses of a BR follower (speaking of standard) is to get that center moving. (Did I get that right?) It isn't really a faster response, but the movment looks sooner, perhaps.

Er...???

hmm... this would open up a technical debate with CS in two seconds flat, i think... lots of nuances in this, i would say.

if you move the center and leap without preparation on to the receiving leg, it's not as controlled and balanced as preparing the leg first and then receiving the weight change, which baricchi goes into in his dance bible. but i am no expert in these nuances so don't wanna open my trap to make any distinctions.

but yes... get & keep the center moving is definitely more an objective with standard than it appears to be with AT.

[Peaches]

Lol. Yeah, I figured I was dipping toes into deep theoretical Standard waters, there.

The way it's alway seemed to me with Standard (warning: no friggin' clue, currently talking out of my ***), is that the center starts moving about the same time as the free leg, but the free leg moves faster in order to prep for the weight transfer.

Like I said, no clue... (Not that that has EVER stopped me from rambling. How many posts am I up to?)

[jennyisdancing]

I love watching WCS but I hate it when people ask me to dance.

I always get bossed through the most convoluted, ridiculous patterns imaginable while the man alternates between telling me what to do and blaming mistakes on me because I am "not following." Oh and let's not forget his awkward laughter.

I now refuse a WCS when asked by somebody I do not know. I always ask if we can please dance something else to the music. Sorry, but I've just had my fill over the years. The dance feels terrible and I am always, always made to feel that it was all my fault. The lead walks away disappointed and embarrassed. Both of us feel badly for different reasons.

Basically you got dealt some crappy leaders. Same thing happens in AT. If you're a beginner, the leader should not be trying to take you through convoluted patterns, nor trying to teach you on the dance floor, nor making you feel crappy about it. Sorry you had that experience - but that is a reflection of those leaders, not the dance itself.

WCS requires advanced lead/follow skills to do the complicated stuff. I would say it's the second most difficult dance in that respect, AT being the top one. WCS is generally not a dance you can just pick up while on the floor, you have to have lessons. Cool thing for me is, WCS can at times incorporate tango movements. It's fairly common to do forward ochos as part of a WCS pattern, and it's led in a similar way, through the leader's upper body.

[bastet]

i haven't dance AT but have watched the chain-reaction of lead-follow energy, and it just appears to me to be stickier -- i like that word for it -- with a necessarily longer delay in the woman's response. can't comment more than that as haven't done the dance. :)

in BR, including latin, one must wait, but the response must be very prompt. so, the follower can/must still wait for the weight changes, but when the information comes, perhaps the follower launches more quickly...

I'm with Peaches on this, there is no delay in the follows response (initiation of movement with leg extension) but the center stays over the standing leg until the direction/speed of movement is known (we're probably talking nanoseconds here, it's so slight). It has more to do with the position of the axis rather than lauching, I think.

Really- I'm not trying to diss BR following. As I said, I thought many the same things myself when I first started AT and then very promptly revised my previous thoughts that placed BR following and AT following in the same category. There are techinques and so forth about them that are not the same, and not interchangeable, and while I can say that in dancing BR I am still convinced I followed and waited for the direction of where to go and what to do, but the implication sof that are much different in AT.

Admittedly, I learned Smooth anf Rhythm, and not International, and that was my training and what I competed in, so we may still be on different wavelengths, but those are my thoughts on it.

[bastet]

Basically you got dealt some crappy leaders. Same thing happens in AT. If you're a beginner, the leader should not be trying to take you through convoluted patterns, nor trying to teach you on the dance floor, nor making you feel crappy about it. Sorry you had that experience - but that is a reflection of those leaders, not the dance itself.

WCS requires advanced lead/follow skills to do the complicated stuff. I would say it's the second most difficult dance in that respect, AT being the top one. WCS is generally not a dance you can just pick up while on the floor, you have to have lessons. Cool thing for me is, WCS can at times incorporate tango movements. It's fairly common to do forward ochos as part of a WCS pattern, and it's led in a similar way, through the leader's upper body.

Agreed. I find WCS to be most like AT in its complexity and you got dealt some bad leads...

[Peaches]

It's fairly common to do forward ochos as part of a WCS pattern, and it's led in a similar way, through the leader's upper body.Heh...I can't follow Sailor Shuffles to save my life. Can.not.do.them. WCS, ECS...doesn't matter...they all turn into back ochos.

[Peaches]

It has more to do with the position of the axis rather than lauching, I think.Could you elaborate a bit more on this, please?

[bastet]

hmm... this would open up a technical debate with CS in two seconds flat, i think... lots of nuances in this, i would say.

if you move the center and leap without preparation on to the receiving leg, it's not as controlled and balanced as preparing the leg first and then receiving the weight change, which baricchi goes into in his dance bible. but i am no expert in these nuances so don't wanna open my trap to make any distinctions.

but yes... get & keep the center moving is definitely more an objective with standard than it appears to be with AT.

hmm- intersting thought- I wonder if it has anything to do with the fact that in AT, you've got plenty of options that require connection but maybe no traveling along the dance floor- amagues and other fakes, micro weight changes (my other half LOVES these to death), turns in place around a partner in a tight space....micro weight changes around a partner in place....

[Peaches]

Good point. The constantly moving center thing would get an AT dancer into trouble in no time.

...love love love partial weight changes. LOVE them. I wish more guys would/could lead them. Good thing you're in Texas, or I'd be tempted to steal away your micro-weight-change-loving other half! :)

[bastet]

Could you elaborate a bit more on this, please?

That would be the part about keeping the weight over the standing leg til actual movement in a direction is intiated. So, if you extended, but allow your axis to shift and so sending more of yourself than you should have to a new position (a new axis, I guess), you've moved your axis away from your partner/lost connection/haven't kept yourself in the same relative position to your partner...etc...I think guys usually are talking about this when they say the follow is "moving away from them". It doesn't take a full weight change to change your body position. If you break it down, we use this kind of concept for breaks and stops split weight. Positioning in a split weight position and then leading a full weight change one direction or another.

I guess what I'm thinking is in AT following, you don't launch yourself (except maybe somtimes dancing Nuevo style...but I'll go with Luciana on that...you PRRRROPEL yourself....) :) Generally you are trying to mainatin the connection (In close embrace) and so you have to move yourself in a certain way that would probably exclude launching yourself....

Steve could probably explain this idea better than I can.

[Peaches]

Ah, OK. Thank you.

[Angel HI]

Would have loved to have been a more intregal part of this thread. A couple of key points worth rereading....

Assuming you were giving her a good lead, this causes me to strongly question this instructor's following skills. You shouldn't have to 'put' her anywhere. She should understand she is following the dance, not the man, and that the man is creating a space and opportunity for her, not muscling her into position. We wait for the opportunity and then we take it - We do not sit there like lumps and expect the man to 'place' us anywhere! It makes men miserable to have to constantly carry us or fling us around.

This is excellent! Although, the best post on this thread is....

turns out... no. the follower determines a lot, because the one going backward has the power to set depth and distance covered by how much she invites the man toward her. same thing in promenade... the lady needs to be very active to continue inviting the man forward into his movement. otherwise...he just can't go anywhere.

OMG! (a little bit of nerd coming out there)....Sam, you ranked high, here. Which bears Heather's post re a good lead being able to lead everything. Perhaps, "if" the follow possesses some of Sam's basic knowledge/skills.

And, lastly, ....

Heh...I can't follow Sailor Shuffles to save my life. Can.not.do.them. WCS, ECS...doesn't matter...they all turn into back ochos.

You ae such a joy. If you do not understand pas de bouree, think of them as ocho cortados. Voila!

[Peaches]

If you do not understand pas de bouree, think of them as ocho cortados. Voila!Oh holy crap! Thank you. Now, that makes total sense.

[Peaches]

Would have loved to have been a more intregal part of this thread. Never too late to join in!

[jennyisdancing]

And, lastly, ....

You ae such a joy. If you do not understand pas de bouree, think of them as ocho cortados. Voila!

To me they're a bit different. I knew how to do sailor shuffles and pas de bourees before learning AT, and it didn't help me know how to do the ocho cortado. Timing is the same, but the steps are different.

Another breakdown I found elsewhere is:

Sailor Shuffle: Triple step taking up 2 counts of music. The count is 1 & 2.

Left Sailor Shuffle:
1. Cross left foot behind right foot & step slightly to right with right foot. (count 1-and)
2. Step left foot in place. Lean body to the left during this shuffle. (count 2)

Right Sailor Shuffle:
1. Cross right foot behind left foot & step slightly to the left with left foot. (count 1-and)
2. Step right foot in place. Lean body to the right during this shuffle. (count 2)

[Angel HI]

Of course, you are correct in several ways, however, the concept is the same, and this is what I knew would make sense to Peaches. Now that she understands this, she will be able to adjust the technique.

[Peaches]

To me they're a bit different. I knew how to do sailor shuffles and pas de bourees before learning AT, and it didn't help me know how to do the ocho cortado. Timing is the same, but the steps are different.

Another breakdown I found elsewhere is:

Sailor Shuffle: Triple step taking up 2 counts of music. The count is 1 & 2.

Left Sailor Shuffle:
1. Cross left foot behind right foot & step slightly to right with right foot. (count 1-and)
2. Step left foot in place. Lean body to the left during this shuffle. (count 2)

Right Sailor Shuffle:
1. Cross right foot behind left foot & step slightly to the left with left foot. (count 1-and)
2. Step right foot in place. Lean body to the right during this shuffle. (count 2)
Reads like an ocho cortado to me. The cross in front instead of in back to start, and I don't really see what the difference is at all. Step-wise, at least. Styling-wise and timing-wise, sure, there are differences.

[Zoopsia59]

I always said that too, when dancing BR and first took up AT. However, after a while in AT, I REALLY learned exactly what that meant.

I beleive it was a true statement then, and still is, if I were to go out BR dancing I dont' know what they'll lead or when....but it means something a little different in AT and I don't think it's something explainable in words and I wouldn't call them both the same kind of following now, having had extensive training in both areas.

Not having had extensive training in BR but having followed it at dances (and with some of the more advanced dancers here), I'd say that even though you don't know what move a BR leader might do next, it will come from a more predictable set of possibilities. Some things naturally come after other things, and the "vocabulary" of moves seems somewhat more limited, and the syllabus is standardized as to what is or isn't "correct".

In AT, a leader may lead something that he just made up on the spot that no one has ever seen or done before. While BR dancers most certainly make stuff up too and make up combinations for sure, I don't think its quite at the level of what happens in AT. Even though I have been doing AT intensively and haven't had formal training in BR at all, I still find AT to be far more unpredictable. Even 2 well trained skilled AT leaders may have two totally different ways of dancing to the extent that its barely the same dance. The follower doesn't even nessesarily hold her head the same way with 2 different leaders because one may use an embrace which requires her to face to her right, and another may hold her in a way that has her looking over HIS right shoulder.

While any decent follower in BR can feel the difference between leader A and leader B doing American Smooth Waltz, it still feels like American Smooth Waltz unless done WRONG. In AT, leader A and Leader B may be both correct and it will feel almost like 2 different DANCES. (similar to how you can actually fit some dances' rhythm to the music for other dances in BR)

[jennyisdancing]

Reads like an ocho cortado to me. The cross in front instead of in back to start, and I don't really see what the difference is at all. Step-wise, at least. Styling-wise and timing-wise, sure, there are differences.

Well, it seems different to me, but whatever works for you - if it helps you to compare them, it's all good. :)
I find many situations where something I learn in one dance translates to another to help me understand.

[Angel HI]

Zoops, your post http://www.dance-forums.com/showpost.php?p=574669&postcount=107 is sopt on. Learning to dance by element and not by pattern is the single most important thing in who/what i am in dance today. I was taught by the book; step lists; and syllabi...by slow-slow-quick-crap, etc. But, then I was told to, other than in competition, forget all of it, and look for ways to not dance the "figure", but create a different movement. My teachers, and I have always taught this as dancing by position rather than by pattern.

[Steve Pastor]

bastet, I think you did just fine.

Sailor shuffles, to me, are very similar to the basic step in night club two step. Same basic movement, but with a different feel. I'll throw in a few "steps" sort of like that in my AT every now and then. Really, they are like "rock steps" only with a slight opening of the frame and a pivoting motion. The key, of course, is to not take too big a step, and not put weight on the back stepping foot. Some times I will lead them without taking any steps myself.
In WCS I guess Sailor Shuffles aka Vaudeville don't make sense to me, becaue I never use 'em, but any two handed connection should suffice to lead them. Maybe I'll try tonight.
Lot of things in dance are similar, but not the same. There's an AT addage that there are really only 4 steps in Tango, or something to that effect.

I really wish people would teach WCS more lead follow, rather than patterns.
When I was sitll doing lessons, I learned that all but the simpliest patterns fell apart after a few steps. Partners would turn without any lead to turn, as one example. But mostly it was a loss of connection making it impossible to lead the next step(s).

Learning AT from some of the people I had lessons with made me think about WCS in much the same way I think of AT. Where my partner is now, where she seems to be going, or where she could go (how can her energy be redirected), is what determines what happens next.

[jennyisdancing]

I really wish people would teach WCS more lead follow, rather than patterns.
When I was sitll doing lessons, I learned that all but the simpliest patterns fell apart after a few steps. Partners would turn without any lead to turn, as one example. But mostly it was a loss of connection making it impossible to lead the next step(s).

Learning AT from some of the people I had lessons with made me think about WCS in much the same way I think of AT. Where my partner is now, where she seems to be going, or where she could go (how can her energy be redirected), is what determines what happens next.

That's exactly how my WCS teacher has taught - to tell the leaders to decide where/how they want to place their follower's weight and position. A couple guys in the class were very experienced in tango, and picked up on the idea immediately.

When taught this way, a WCS leader can make up new patterns and ideas just as an AT leader can, and a good follower can follow it. And I found that I did better at WCS after learning AT. So the two dances have some similar concepts and I think, complement each other well, even though the music and styles are so different.

BTW it was really funny when we worked on the forward ochos in WCS class. One guy piped up, "what is the leader's footwork for this move?" The teacher smiled and said "ohhhhhhh...the leader's footwork...." and proceeded to lead the move with no footwork and only the upper body moving, (which of course, would be normal in an AT class) but in this WCS class, the guy who asked the question looked baffled! :p

[bastet]

That's exactly how my WCS teacher has taught - to tell the leaders to decide where/how they want to place their follower's weight and position. A couple guys in the class were very experienced in tango, and picked up on the idea immediately.

When taught this way, a WCS leader can make up new patterns and ideas just as an AT leader can, and a good follower can follow it. And I found that I did better at WCS after learning AT. So the two dances have some similar concepts and I think, complement each other well, even though the music and styles are so different.

BTW it was really funny when we worked on the forward ochos in WCS class. One guy piped up, "what is the leader's footwork for this move?" The teacher smiled and said "ohhhhhhh...the leader's footwork...." and proceeded to lead the move with no footwork and only the upper body moving, (which of course, would be normal in an AT class) but in this WCS class, the guy who asked the question looked baffled! :p

tee hee...

It's nice to know someone else besides me has linked the 2 dances up (mentally if not physically). For at least Nuevo style dancing, I find find some similarites in the energy and elasticity to WCS. They are different, but I think they are very complementary and have told people this on a number of occasions.

[Steve Pastor]

Ooooo, let me know if you learn how to work a gancho into WCS! I haven't been able to figure it out myself. NC2, yes. All you have to do is catch the woman on her slow side step. (Yes, most women practically freak if you do this.) But WCS, no.
On the other hand, I rarely do ganchos when dancing AT.

[jennyisdancing]

Ooooo, let me know if you learn how to work a gancho into WCS! I haven't been able to figure it out myself. NC2, yes. All you have to do is catch the woman on her slow side step. (Yes, most women practically freak if you do this.) But WCS, no.
On the other hand, I rarely do ganchos when dancing AT.

At last weekend's WCS dance, they played a Gotan Project song (Notas from the Lunatico album) and one couple smoothly alternated between WCS and AT. I did WCS to the song, since the leader didn't know AT, but I threw in a few tango embellishments and it worked very nicely; the leader liked it. I've probably seen somebody do ganchos in WCS but I would assume both people would need to be familiar with AT to do it.

[bastet]

Ooooo, let me know if you learn how to work a gancho into WCS! I haven't been able to figure it out myself. NC2, yes. All you have to do is catch the woman on her slow side step. (Yes, most women practically freak if you do this.) But WCS, no.
On the other hand, I rarely do ganchos when dancing AT.

Oh dear! We do it all the time...it's one of the few Swango things we remember....I know it starts from a whip, and some sort of over rotation happens and then boom! gancho!

[bastet]

At last weekend's WCS dance, they played a Gotan Project song (Notas from the Lunatico album) and one couple smoothly alternated between WCS and AT. I did WCS to the song, since the leader didn't know AT, but I threw in a few tango embellishments and it worked very nicely; the leader liked it. I've probably seen somebody do ganchos in WCS but I would assume both people would need to be familiar with AT to do it.

it helps...I always say it's next to impossible to fuse 2 dances unless you know how they both operate, which means having some understanding of both.

[Peaches]

You guys aren't the only ones to link AT and WCS in your mind. Count me in. I don't know enough of WCS yet to really see similarities, or how to mix moves from one into the other. But I feel like from AT I understand, and am more comfortable with, the idea of pure following. (Apologies to the BR peeps. I know you follow...I just can't.) I'm more adept at visual following, have a better understanding of connection, and am better at just keeping to a holding pattern and letting things settle and get going again.

I have an issue with--not anticipating, exactly--really understanding the connection. Part of it is the visual lead getting in the way. I'll see the leader step back into the sugar push, and I instinctively want to move with him, rather than letting the tension in the connection build. But I feel much more comfortable with the free-form-ness of it now, thanks to AT.

[dancinrina]

LMAO... funny we should be talking about this... I just got back from my first ever WCS lesson and, I have to say, for some reason, and, I really don't know why, but I do see a kind of odd connections between AT and WCS. and the funny thing was, my teacher was the first to say that if I like AT, I'll love WCS. Weird....

Note to self - 3" latin doesn't work for WCS

[Joe]

Not having had extensive training in BR but having followed it at dances (and with some of the more advanced dancers here), I'd say that even though you don't know what move a BR leader might do next, it will come from a more predictable set of possibilities.
I think that depends on the context of the style of ballroom you are dancing. Int'l Standard is very restrictive in the relative position of the bodies, but Smooth or Latin/Rhythm allow for more freedom for directionality and positioning.

[bastet]

Note to self - 3" latin doesn't work for WCS


Hahaha...OUCH! (Tried that one and only one time in 3.5" Neotangos.....) But I do have a shoe suggestion (don't I always?)....I use the Aris Allen Rugcutter- has a 2" heel, small platform, leather sole...so I use them for tango classes as well...(kills 2 birds with one stone and all that) :D

[Me]

Thank you everybody for the thoughts on WCS. I apologize for the little hijjack to Peaches's thread, but what I have read here has helped me.

Basically you got dealt some crappy leaders. Same thing happens in AT. If you're a beginner, the leader should not be trying to take you through convoluted patterns, nor trying to teach you on the dance floor, nor making you feel crappy about it. Sorry you had that experience - but that is a reflection of those leaders, not the dance itself.

WCS requires advanced lead/follow skills to do the complicated stuff. I would say it's the second most difficult dance in that respect, AT being the top one. WCS is generally not a dance you can just pick up while on the floor, you have to have lessons. Cool thing for me is, WCS can at times incorporate tango movements. It's fairly common to do forward ochos as part of a WCS pattern, and it's led in a similar way, through the leader's upper body.

Agreed. I find WCS to be most like AT in its complexity and you got dealt some bad leads...

You know, people keep telling me this, but after a while, it just becomes so horribly hard to believe. I can count using one hand the men I feel comfortable dancing this with, and those men are exceptional dancers. Usually this means I have some serious work to do.



I really wish people would teach WCS more lead follow, rather than patterns.
When I was sitll doing lessons, I learned that all but the simpliest patterns fell apart after a few steps. Partners would turn without any lead to turn, as one example. But mostly it was a loss of connection making it impossible to lead the next step(s).

Learning AT from some of the people I had lessons with made me think about WCS in much the same way I think of AT. Where my partner is now, where she seems to be going, or where she could go (how can her energy be redirected), is what determines what happens next.

This post makes sense to me, and others above have also mentioned this similarity between the way AT should be taught and the way WCS should be taught.

I admit all of my bad WCS experiences have been at ballroom dance socials. Not to sound like a complete tango brat, but when I see AT danced at ballroom socials, most of it is clearly a guessing game for the follow on which memorized AT pattern she should begin flying through. Ballroom dancers also often complain about how AT is too complicated and they'd rather spend their time improving their ballroom. Now that I think about, I almost always hear the same complaint about WCS, except instead of saying they'd rather spend more time improving ballroom, they say they need to improve it because everybody else wants to dance it.

I cannot imagine how awful AT would feel if I were new to it, if it were the latest fad, and that when an American tango came on, guys would grab me "for some AT," start off walking, and then using no lead at all, launch into step 15 of the DVIDA syllabus, "15) Parada, Sandwich al Reves & Pasada con Media Luna - Stop, Reverse Sandwich, Pass Over with Half Moon." :doh: I would completely hate tango!

I completely and totally understand this. Until very recently (last couple of months) I refuse to dance WCS, for the exact same reasons. It was just an exercise in feeling like crap about myself and my dancing, and I just wasn't willing to do that.


YES exactly. That is exactly how I feel!

Heh...I can't follow Sailor Shuffles to save my life. Can.not.do.them. WCS, ECS...doesn't matter...they all turn into back ochos.

I hate this step. The guy just stops dancing for no reason and starts clomping from side to side.

[Zoopsia59]

I think that depends on the context of the style of ballroom you are dancing. Int'l Standard is very restrictive in the relative position of the bodies, but Smooth or Latin/Rhythm allow for more freedom for directionality and positioning.

That could be... I don't really know anything about the difference between Standard & Smooth or American & International, etc.. although I'm not so ignorant as to be unaware of the difference between American and Viennese Waltz! Love Viennese... Despite my focus on Tango, American and Viennese Waltz are actually still my favorite dances as long as the America Waltz isn't too slow and sleepy. I'll just never be able to do them at a high level because I can't get my upper back into a proper position without pain.

[jennyisdancing]

I hate this step. The guy just stops dancing for no reason and starts clomping from side to side.

:confused: Sounds like he's not doing the step correctly, to say the least.

What the rest comes down to is, certain dances (AT & WCS in particular) tend to be more lead-follow based and require a fair amount of specific training to be able to enjoy the dance even only on a social level. Whereas some of the ballroom dances share some common vocabulary and can be picked up more quickly, albeit on a very low level, but still enough to satisfy some folks for simple social purposes. Not implying it's any easier to dance ballroom well or properly, of course.

Apropos, I was talking to a lady who has been taking BR lessons for only about a month. She was at a dance and said she was asked to do WCS. She said that she didn't know WCS but the leader asked her if she knew jitterbug and she said yes. Then the leader told her, that's fine, WCS is like that, just a different rhythm. :doh:

Pretty much equivalent to someone saying, if you know ballroom tango, then you can pick up AT on the floor, no problem. :rolleyes:

[Peaches]

Thank you everybody for the thoughts on WCS. I apologize for the little hijjack to Peaches's thread, but what I have read here has helped me.Oh, don't apologize. I'm a horrible hijacker to other people's threads, so it's kind of karma, I guess. It doesn't phase me in the least. One of the things I like about the AT forum is that threads here do tend to meander a bit, which seems to create nice, "organic" conversations that just flow. If it wanders, it wanders. No harm done.

And, if it helps you or someone else, so much the better! :D

[Zoopsia59]

Or in HOW it's followed. ;) But since I only dance the follower's part at this point, it's where my focus is.

Do you, dancing both roles, feel the difference is more from the leader's side, the follower's or both?

I think you meant this for me?

I don't lead in BR at all and I'm not an advanced AT leader yet, so I really don't know. I'd say its probably both.

[Peaches]

I hate this step. The guy just stops dancing for no reason and starts clomping from side to side.If this is what it's been feeling like for you...holy crap you've had some bad leads! Did Angel's comment about thinking of it like an ocho cortado make sense to you? That was such a light bulb comment for me. They've always felt like the lead for a back ocho to me...which is what I've always done.

[Zoopsia59]

What the rest comes down to is, certain dances (AT & WCS in particular) tend to be more lead-follow based and require a fair amount of specific training to be able to enjoy the dance even only on a social level. Whereas some of the ballroom dances share some common vocabulary and can be picked up more quickly, albeit on a very low level, but still enough to satisfy some folks for simple social purposes. Not implying it's any easier to dance ballroom well or properly, of course.

I agree.

I'm always amazed at the people who come to Tango from NO dance background. I think it is a much harder dance to gain that "social" level of profficiency than the ballroom dances and I can't imagine someone starting their social dance study with the hardest dance.

I think that AT will improve the other dances in some ways especially as a follower... (that is, if you actually learn to FOLLOW - not "remember" in AT) But despite the ballroom dancers needing to unlearn some things to do AT, the folks who have never danced ANYTHING struggle considerably in AT in a way that I didn't see in beginner classes for other dances.

Sometimes I want to suggest that they go take a class in ECS just to get used to moving and having fun at it, then take AT. It takes so long to get to even a low enough level of profficiency to enjoy a social dance, whereas someone can get out and do at least some simple basic fox trot or ECS in far less time.

But Argentine tango has some weird addictive quality. As I said in another post, it wasn't my favorite dance when I started, I STILL don't really get excited or strongly moved by the music itself the way I do a Viennese Waltz, I still LOVE the Waltz best, and yet... I can't stop working on, perfecting, talking about, and going to AT classes and dances. I can't remember the last time I did a ballroom waltz (American or V.) but a let few days go by that I haven't had AT in my life in some way, by practicing or discussing it, and I feel restless and in need of an AT "fix".

Baffling.

[Peaches]

I remember when I first started AT, as in before my first lesson, the woman who'd arranged things commenting that it was good that I'd only had ~9 months of minor ballroom experience because I wouldn't have that to mess me up.

I must be strange, though, because I found AT very very easy from the very beginning. I found milongas fun from the very beginning. Could be I had the opportunity to dance with just some very patient leads. Could be that a lot of that comes from my teacher.

There's one young girl (13 or 14) who gets dragged to milongas with her mother, and who's never had an AT lesson. Despite the lack of formal instruction, she can actually dance a very basic tango with patient leaders, and it's all because of my teacher. He's just repeatedly asked her to dance, and started with nothing more than walking...then adding a cross...then adding a step-over...then adding other little things. No, her technique isn't good, but she can follow and does just fine. It's been fascinating to watch her get better.

But...yeah. AT is addictive in a way that nothing else has been. And kudos for someone else saying it should be fun! Maybe it's just the competitive influence, but that's one thing which seems to be missing (if not "frowned upon") in the BR circles. I've felt, at times, that even just saying that I want to have fun with it puts me in the category of "not serious." (Of course, I never was like I've been with AT. But even so, I'm serious about AT and demand fun from it.)

[jennyisdancing]

I remember when I first started AT, as in before my first lesson, the woman who'd arranged things commenting that it was good that I'd only had ~9 months of minor ballroom experience because I wouldn't have that to mess me up.

I must be strange, though, because I found AT very very easy from the very beginning. I found milongas fun from the very beginning. Could be I had the opportunity to dance with just some very patient leads. Could be that a lot of that comes from my teacher.

There's one young girl (13 or 14) who gets dragged to milongas with her mother, and who's never had an AT lesson. Despite the lack of formal instruction, she can actually dance a very basic tango with patient leaders, and it's all because of my teacher. He's just repeatedly asked her to dance, and started with nothing more than walking...then adding a cross...then adding a step-over...then adding other little things. No, her technique isn't good, but she can follow and does just fine. It's been fascinating to watch her get better.

But...yeah. AT is addictive in a way that nothing else has been. And kudos for someone else saying it should be fun! Maybe it's just the competitive influence, but that's one thing which seems to be missing (if not "frowned upon") in the BR circles. I've felt, at times, that even just saying that I want to have fun with it puts me in the category of "not serious." (Of course, I never was like I've been with AT. But even so, I'm serious about AT and demand fun from it.)

Hmmm...I envy you, Peaches. It's been over a year, and I'm still waiting for tango to feel anything remotely like fun or addictive. This despite finding a really excellent new teacher who is also extremely patient and encouraging. My following has improved a lot since taking her lessons, yet I still don't feel at the point where I'm enjoying the dance much. It doesn't help that most of the leaders just want to show off their flashiest new moves and are annoyed if you can't do them. :(

I'd be super happy if I could dance AT with folks who want to do simple moves well and connecting with the music, but I'm not finding much of that. I do see that kind of thing more with social BR.

[Peaches]

:( I'm so sorry to hear that.

I have no idea why it clicked for me. (Or maybe it didn't, and my teacher was too kind to tell me, lol. I love my delusions!)

Part of me wonders if, on a very small level, it has anything to do with the fact that my first teacher really didn't speak much English at the time. So I got very little verbal information (relatively speaking), what little there was was confined to things like "focus on me and nothing else" or "don't move," and most of it was just physical and feeling things. (I tend to do well with a very hands-on kind of teaching.) *shrug*

[jennyisdancing]

:( I'm so sorry to hear that.

I have no idea why it clicked for me. (Or maybe it didn't, and my teacher was too kind to tell me, lol. I love my delusions!)

Part of me wonders if, on a very small level, it has anything to do with the fact that my first teacher really didn't speak much English at the time. So I got very little verbal information (relatively speaking), what little there was was confined to things like "focus on me and nothing else" or "don't move," and most of it was just physical and feeling things. (I tend to do well with a very hands-on kind of teaching.) *shrug*

interesting...just the opposite for me. I am very verbal and need to hear clear, precise words to explain things. So my current instructor (a former high school English teacher!) is perfect for my needs, and I feel I am grasping things more rapidly, whereas I felt extremely frustrated with the previous non-verbal types of instructors I had. Even if I could follow them physically I still wanted to hear a clear verbal explanation of how their actions fit into a concept. I don't think one kind of teacher or the other is generally better, it's just whatever works best for each individual's learning style.

Anyway, to take this back on topic, it seems to be a lot easier in social BR than in AT, for a relative newbie to find a willing partner, perform simple steps together, connect with the music, and have a very pleasant and successful experience. The AT learning curve is a real hindrance in this regard.

[bastet]

Hmmm...I envy you, Peaches. It's been over a year, and I'm still waiting for tango to feel anything remotely like fun or addictive. This despite finding a really excellent new teacher who is also extremely patient and encouraging. My following has improved a lot since taking her lessons, yet I still don't feel at the point where I'm enjoying the dance much. It doesn't help that most of the leaders just want to show off their flashiest new moves and are annoyed if you can't do them. :(

I'd be super happy if I could dance AT with folks who want to do simple moves well and connecting with the music, but I'm not finding much of that. I do see that kind of thing more with social BR.

have you taken a class on milonga yet? :D That's what clicked it for me. I love milonga. I can't ever feel bad dancing a milonga and I've found that most people's tango tends to lighten up a little once they've had a milonga class (at least, one that is taught by someone who loves milonga!)

[jennyisdancing]

have you taken a class on milonga yet? :D That's what clicked it for me. I love milonga. I can't ever feel bad dancing a milonga and I've found that most people's tango tends to lighten up a little once they've had a milonga class (at least, one that is taught by someone who loves milonga!)

Yes! I've done milonga and taken classes in it. I enjoy it a lot, think it's fun, and find it a good bit easier as well. But then, I enjoy rhythmic dances in general (latin, salsa, etc.). However, my local venues tend not to play many milonga songs and most of the leaders don't appear to know or enjoy the style.

[Peaches]

Chica, you need to find a new scene. Come on down! :)

[bastet]

Yes! I've done milonga and taken classes in it. I enjoy it a lot, think it's fun, and find it a good bit easier as well. But then, I enjoy rhythmic dances in general (latin, salsa, etc.). However, my local venues tend not to play many milonga songs and most of the leaders don't appear to know or enjoy the style.


OH! That's SO SAD! I think you have to have a really upbeat teacher when you first encounter it. My original instructor (luv 'im and all that) but boy- he had a grumpy personality and it didn't really lighten up...not a good intro for milonga. I'm glad we had a reallly nice couple give our first instruction with it...they kind of infected us. :p

[Angel HI]

Ooooo, let me know if you learn how to work a gancho into WCS! I haven't been able to figure it out myself.

Surprising. As someone else posted, it is one of the first "Swango" (hate that term) moves that is learned. try these....

1. Sugar Push: man steps L out of the slot on 1 bringing her forward as normal. Stepping R in place for 2, lead her to not take the tap or triplet, but step back R on 3 - gancho "and", recover L fwd for 4, finish like normal 5+6.

2. From the whip, she ganchos on counts "and 5".

3. From the Link to Closed, she ganchos on the end. I'm sure there are more.

I agree.

I'm always amazed at the people who come to Tango from NO dance background. I think it is a much harder dance to gain that "social" level of profficiency than the ballroom dances and I can't imagine someone starting their social dance study with the hardest dance.

This is a common thought, and for the life of me, I can not figure out why. I still insist, almost 20 years later, that AT is socially one of the easiest dances on the planet. I understand that when one approaches it from a S-S-Q-Q point of thought, it can be difficult because, until its surgence into US markets, it was never taught like this. it was based on natural walking. It is much easier than social...it has no preconcieved have-tos, no rise/lowers...just walk-feel-respond. I understand that I had the advantage of learning in BsAs, but so did a million other people.

The reason that social AT is not difficult for the bizillion Argentines who dance it everyday is because they approach it from a different mindset than the average amer student. I am still convinced, that if people approached AT as in Peaches' post #138...later, that it would be easier at the beginning. Of course the nuances of teh upper level stuff will still be....AAGGHH!

[Angel HI]

Interesting points on milonga. It sort of goes with my other post. In BsAs, milonga is considered more difficult than tango. I find that to dance a really good milonga, one has to be fairly well versed in just plain tango. Yet, those on this thread seem to feel differently. I do understand that most rhythm dacnes are easier just because there isn't the time and attention placed to detail/tech. And milonga is fun.

[Peaches]

I am still convinced, as are several after some of my workshops (no bragging intended...sincerely), that in order to learn AT (remove the mystery) is to go into the first lesson with the intent of learning a different way to move.See, and this surprised me. I think I'd have said the exact opposite. (Which isn't meant to argue with your years of experience in teaching and dancing.) I guess I'd think of it more along the lines of, "You already know how to move. You already know how to walk. At it's most fundamental, that's all you're doing, so don't make it harder or more complex." Oh, sure, technique changes things. But having seen people seeming forget how to walk normally once they cross the threshold onto a dance floor, I think I'd just approach it from the other direction.

[Angel HI]

I see how you could have misread the post, but your reply is exactly what I was saying. If people approached AT in the way that you have described here, it wouldn't be so hard to understand. and begin. Of course, the nuances of gettign better and ultimately really good are a bit.....???????

[Peaches]

I see how you could have misread the post, but your reply is exactly what I was saying. If people approached AT in the way that you have described here, it wouldn't be so hard to understand. and begin. Of course, the nuances of gettign better and ultimately really good are a bit.....???????Oh. Well then. Never mind! :D

[jennyisdancing]

See, and this surprised me. I think I'd have said the exact opposite. (Which isn't meant to argue with your years of experience in teaching and dancing.) I guess I'd think of it more along the lines of, "You already know how to move. You already know how to walk. At it's most fundamental, that's all you're doing, so don't make it harder or more complex." Oh, sure, technique changes things. But having seen people seeming forget how to walk normally once they cross the threshold onto a dance floor, I think I'd just approach it from the other direction.

I would agree with idea of telling people not to overthink it. And I like how my teacher breaks things down, explaining there are really only a few basic movements which combine in numerous different ways.

Yet somehow this is actually difficult to get your mind around when, as an adult, you rarely are taught anything anymore at such an elemental level. My teacher was showing how, for example, a molinete was not a pattern as such, but was composed of a side step, pivot, etc. and I could see the leaders looking overwhelmed. I would think you have to work your brain more to think of the invidividual elements and put them together yourself, rather than memorizing a pattern.

[Angel HI]

I would agree with idea of telling people not to overthink it.

Yet somehow this is actually difficult to get your mind around when, as an adult, you rarely are taught anything anymore at such an elemental level.

Exactly.

I would think you have to work your brain more to think of the invidividual elements and put them together yourself, rather than memorizing a pattern.

and this....is the key to good AT.

[bastet]

Interesting points on milonga. It sort of goes with my other post. In BsAs, milonga is considered more difficult than tango. I find that to dance a really good milonga, one has to be fairly well versed in just plain tango. Yet, those on this thread seem to feel differently. I do understand that most rhythm dacnes are easier just because there isn't the time and attention placed to detail/tech. And milonga is fun.

Well- I didn't say a good milonga isn't perhaps harder than a tango ;-) but, in terms of it's upbeat feeling, it seems to relax people when they go back to their next tango class...like blowing off steam...Sure, if they want to get really good at it, they'll have to work, but it still seems to loosen people up a bit (whether they are doing it right or wrong, or good technique isn't the part I'm talking about), just that it tends to loosen people up a little. (Again- I've seen this more when students have benn taught by people who are REALLY enjoying their milonga....)

[jennyisdancing]

Quote:
Originally Posted by jennyisdancing http://www.dance-forums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?p=575144#post575144)
I would agree with idea of telling people not to overthink it.

Yet somehow this is actually difficult to get your mind around when, as an adult, you rarely are taught anything anymore at such an elemental level.

Exactly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jennyisdancing http://www.dance-forums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?p=575144#post575144)
I would think you have to work your brain more to think of the invidividual elements and put them together yourself, rather than memorizing a pattern.

and this....is the key to good AT.Of course you're correct, Angel. But learning by elements is a lot easier when you're five than when you're an adult. For adults, patterns are easier and quicker in the short term. I presume that's why foreign language phrasebooks are useful for travelers. Of course a phrasebook won't teach you how to create your own conversation, but it gets you through a short term situation more quickly than thumbing through a dictionary, picking out words, and attempting to string them together using that language's correct grammar.

I would suspect that if many Argentineans, as you say, find tango easy, perhaps it is because they were exposed to the elements and concepts of it since childhood? I am wondering if you took an Argentinean who had never been exposed to tango (or any dance at all), what is it like for that person to try to learn the dance as an adult?

[Steve Pastor]

Slightly relevant historic notes.

While playing mostly one-steps, polkas, schottishes and waltzes for colored patrons at Dixie Park in Memphis, W.C. Handy (Father of the Blues) noted a reaction to the habanera rhythm included in Will H. Tyler's "Maori". (The habanera was used in early tango, and is now found in milonga.) "I observed that there was a sudden, proud and graceful reaction to the rhythm...White dancers, as I had observed them, took the number in stride. I began to suspect that there was something Negroid in that beat." After noting a similar reaction to the same beat in "La Paloma", Handy included this rhythm in his St. Louis Blues, the instrumental copy of Memphis Blues, the chorus of Beale Street Blues, and other compostions."

Handy's observation may have been accurate in 1917 or so, but that rhythm certainly strikes a chord with just about everyone now a days.

There's one woman who comes to our practica with a partner, and they dutifully plod around the floor doing their tango. One day I asked her to do milonga, and told her to think of it as one step, step on each beat, and try to keep her weight towards me because there would be changes of direction. When we were done with a tanda she had a huge smile on her face and declared, "That was so much FUN!"

[Zoopsia59]

It's been over a year, and I'm still waiting for tango to feel anything remotely like fun or addictive.

It doesn't help that most of the leaders just want to show off their flashiest new moves and are annoyed if you can't do them. .

It took me well over a year before i really got in to it myself. Actually, I was very excited about it in the first few months because I made rapid progress as a beginner due to a variety of dance type backgrounds. (ballet, skating, a little ballroom, modern, jazz...)

But then I hit a plateau and couldn't progress. I thought about throwing in the towel on it and sticking to ballroom. I lost heart for over a year. I thought it was all me because I couldn't follow most of the people at the milongas around here. So I took some lessons with the teacher of most of those guys (the ones that would even dance with me at all!) and said "I want to be a better follower". He danced with me and said "I have to tell you, you actually follow pretty well... If you can't follow the guys you dance with, it isn't you.."

I wanted to say "Well then its YOU, because they're all YOUR students!" but I didn't. However, just being told by him that I was a good follower made me relax and feel good about my dancing and that made me a much better follower.

Since then I've invested more money in privates, given up on group classes, done some teaching, and its all falling into place now. But it was a slow progression and not a particularly smooth one.

[Zoopsia59]

Interesting points on milonga. It sort of goes with my other post. In BsAs, milonga is considered more difficult than tango. I find that to dance a really good milonga, one has to be fairly well versed in just plain tango. Yet, those on this thread seem to feel differently. I do understand that most rhythm dacnes are easier just because there isn't the time and attention placed to detail/tech. And milonga is fun.

I think Milonga is easier to start with, but harder to master at a higher level. When you start off learning milonga, you can just step on the ones, and not do any syncopation. As long as both people step to every beat and the lead is clear and the follower understands anything about following, its hard to go wrong. Just step to every beat changing feet on each step. How much easier can dancing get? I've led ballroom dancers who have never had a tango lesson in their life in milonga, and to meringue music.

However, as soon as you add traspie and syncopation, milonga jumps to the stratosphere of difficulty to lead and to follow. Especially if you get to the level where each person may not syncopate together. You also have to move PDQ and alot of middle aged+ "non-dancers" seem a little overwhelmed at having to move that fast, especially in a crowd.

So in order of difficulty I would say its:

Beginner Milonga
Beginner Tango
Advanced Tango
Advanced Milonga

[Zoopsia59]

"Swango" (hate that term) .

You know its the name of a show, right?

[Zoopsia59]

The reason that social AT is not difficult for the bizillion Argentines who dance it everyday is because they approach it from a different mindset than the average amer student. !

But, as my partner likes to point out, there are plenty of bad dancers in BA too.

[jennyisdancing]

Interesting, Zoopsia, as your dance background is similar to mine. I think my experience with AT is proving quite similar also. I have no problem following my teacher (a woman) or her partner; both are top-notch leaders and seem pleased with how I follow. And yes, that does make me feel better. But I see very few leaders of that kind in social dancing situations, and I can't expect just to dance with my teachers most of the time. I think it is a skill in its own to follow a less experienced leader. I want to be patient about this because I realize how hard the leaders have it. I think group classes can be useful in terms of a. socially getting to know different leaders so they will ask you to dance at milongas and b. learning how to adapt one's following to different leaders' skill levels.

[Zoopsia59]

My teacher was showing how, for example, a molinete was not a pattern as such, but was composed of a side step, pivot, etc. and I could see the leaders looking overwhelmed. I would think you have to work your brain more to think of the invidividual elements and put them together yourself, rather than memorizing a pattern.

Yep. I think this is why everyone teaches step patterns

Unfortunately, then people get to a milonga and can't dance because they almost never have the space to complete the whole pattern they got taught and if they can't get to the end of it, they don't know what to do in the middle.

I think with beginners you have to use the patterns as a jumping off point to get them moving so you can work on the real aspects of technique. But once they understand a few simple patterns (and I'm talking WEEKS of class, not years) you need to teach elements so people can put together combinations themselves when on a crowded floor. It also helps once they have a simple pattern (like a molinte) to show variations... how to go both ways, how to stop after only part of it, different entrances and exits for moves.

Even though its harder to put the elements together yourself, teachers should get students thinking for themselves as soon as possible because they're going to have to do it as soon as they go to a dance. I've seen leaders take quite a lot of lessons and then give up because they go out dancing and can't navigate and figure they'll never get it or it will just take too long to get any good.

The question "How else could you get into/ out of this reverse cross?" (for example) never gets asked. Rarely do I see teachers deliberately trying to prompt the students in a class to think about alternatives and variations to the move they just taught, even though they almost need to do so immediately because often the class itself is too crowded to execute the move.

I even attended a class where we were all having to abort the pattern 1/2 way through, or work on it in pieces and vary it due to space constraints and when the teacher saw this, he expressed DISPLEASURE and insisted that we should please do the sequence exactly as he set and not do other things. Except it simply wasn't possible for everyone to do the whole thing at the same time in the space available (and the dance floor was raised, which meant anyone who wasn't really careful would risk an injury by stepping off the 5" platform or catching it 1/2 way and twisting an ankle)

I can see value in having everyone performing the pattern as you set it, IF you are using those steps to teach a specific principle. But if its obvious no one has room to do the whole thing, then maybe (just a thought) you need to adjust it to be shorter? Or else use it as a way to teach navigating and ADDRESS that issue since its obviously coming up anyway?

[Angel HI]

But learning by elements is a lot easier when you're five than when you're an adult. For adults, patterns are easier and quicker in the short term. I presume that's why foreign language phrasebooks are useful for travelers.

Though I understand your point, this is not blanketly true. Golfers learn the elements of a good swing...not just hit the ball. Swimmers learn the elements of proper technique...not just flap to the other side if the pool. Dance should be done in the same manner. It simply hasn't been. But, again, I understand your point. Re your ex., I teach french, and insist that students learn it as they learned english...simply by hearing and saying rather than by grammatical element.

I think Milonga is easier to start with, but harder to master at a higher level. However, as soon as you add traspie and syncopation, milonga jumps to the stratosphere of difficulty to lead and to follow. Especially if you get to the level where each person may not syncopate together.

Exactly my point. Please know that I am nto advocating that AT is not difficult at all...simply, not as much as it appears. I believe it is probably because most approach it as JID and I are discussung above.

You know its the name of a show, right?/quote]

Yes. Actually, the show came after the nickname, and I didn't much like it either. Just MHO. Please don't anyone beat me up. I'm still recouping from surgery. :rolleyes:


[quote=Zoopsia59;575272]But, as my partner likes to point out, there are plenty of bad dancers in BA too.

Oh, how true...how true. :)

[Zoopsia59]

Actually, the show came after the nickname, and I didn't much like it either.

Didn't know that.. I thought Mariella made it up.

[jennyisdancing]

I think with beginners you have to use the patterns as a jumping off point to get them moving so you can work on the real aspects of technique. But once they understand a few simple patterns (and I'm talking WEEKS of class, not years) you need to teach elements so people can put together combinations themselves when on a crowded floor. It also helps once they have a simple pattern (like a molinte) to show variations... how to go both ways, how to stop after only part of it, different entrances and exits for moves.

Thankfully, my teacher does this. We had one class where each leader received several randomly chosen index cards, each with the name of an element - pivot, side step, back step, etc. Then the leaders had to figure out different ways to combine the elements. It was a pretty cool exercise.

[Zoopsia59]

We had one class where each leader received several randomly chosen index cards, each with the name of an element - pivot, side step, back step, etc. Then the leaders had to figure out different ways to combine the elements. It was a pretty cool exercise.

What a great idea! I might try this one

[bastet]

Thankfully, my teacher does this. We had one class where each leader received several randomly chosen index cards, each with the name of an element - pivot, side step, back step, etc. Then the leaders had to figure out different ways to combine the elements. It was a pretty cool exercise.

Yeah- this can be a lot of fun!

[Tricia]

or stop the music and then have the followers make a suggestion of what could happen next is fun too.

you can combine this with having followers guess what the leaders woudl have done and *then* suggestion an alternative... Sigh.

[Steve Pastor]

Three days ago we talked a bit about Sailor Shuffles in West Coast Swing. Go figure!
Anyhow, I led a few the other night with a parnter who I had neve danced with before.
For me, it works the same way as beginning to lead an ocho. If I want her to put her right foot beihind herself, I move her right shoulder back. Yes, by "pushing" on it. Meanwhile, I am "easing up" on her left side.
In apilado close embrace I accomplish this by rotating my torso, left side forward, right side back. Same thing happens in an open position embrace, but she feels this though her arms/shoulders.
When I did this in WCS, I held our hands down just about as far as they would go. I think she was totally on it the second time through.
Who know what she was thinking, but she followed pretty well, I thought, for a situation where we had never danced together, she had on heelless shoes (which I had noticed, but really, she had more or less asked me to dance, she mentioned it by way of, I guess, explanation as to why she wasn't 100% with me (who cared?)), and the floor was a bit funky.
Anyhow, not something I plan to do very often. But it's always a bit confirming when you can dance with a total stranger and realize that you have a common vocabulary.
Oh, yes.
At one point she stopped in the middle of something (a dramatic pause as it were), and then said, "Sometimes I try to lead." Didn't phase me in the least 'cause she did it in a nice way, and it was only once (or twice?).

Do we have an old Swango thread where we could go into it (Swango) more deeply, if anyone wants to go there?

[Steve Pastor]

And following up on the "Sometimes I try to lead" comment and Tricia's suggestion...
Why stop at cards and stopping the music?
It would be a better tango world, in my opinion, if more teachers knew how to teach their students how to influence what the next movement was going to be using "body language". I know it's a more advanced topic, but personally, I like the idea of giving people the idea that there is somewhere to go other than learning more patterns.
Course, you have to know how to do it yourself before you can teach it.

[Zoopsia59]

she had on heelless shoes
the floor was a bit funky.

Hmmm... coincidence? Or not....

Cast your votes here....

[newbie]

So I'd be interested to hear how it turns out...it still seems in keeping with what I was saying yesterday, about the following being dependant on what you're used to. Please keep us posted.


It turned out quite unexpectedly. The female teacher was fired by her dance partner (who also is the studio owner), who replaced my three remaining privates by group AT classes, taught by himself. During these group classes we rehearsed a little group choreography (60 steps) that the pupils were already learning since weeks, and that they will show at the studio party at the end of the season.