How do you afford Ballroom Dancing Lessons?

[dancinrina]

So I have a really rude question and I aplogize in advance if I offend anyone and if it's really truly inappropriate then, by all means, please have a moderator remove this thread. Here we go: So, I've been out of the loop for a while and even when I was "in the loop" things were a bit different for me because the school I went to was able to acconmodate a lot of thing for me but - How are people affording all of this? I mean, there are amatuers flying out to competitions a few times a year, buying costumes, taking private lessons which cost a small fortune. I would love to compete seriously as an amatuer but I just can't seem to find the money to do so. Any advice/recommendations?

[Egoist]

Any advice/recommendations?

Work more or better. Spend less on other stuff. Find a Sugar Daddy/Mamma. Rob a bank.

[mamboqueen]

Try to find a sponsor.

[NielsenE]

Try to find high quality group classes if privates are too expensive for you at this point in life.

See if any of the coaches you want to work with are comfortable with "group privates" -- ie typically 2-4 people or 2-3 couples that take the same private -- its more focused than a group class, but much cheaper than a private. often the teacher rotates through the people/couples an then you're expected to drill for a bit until the teacher makes it back to you.

[Dancebug]

Spend less on other stuff.
This is what I do. I cannot work more because then I will have less time for dancing.

[Larinda McRaven]

Is there a collge with a team near you?

[dancinrina]

Robbing a bank sounds promising. But really, I already work 4 jobs and my college's team requires private lessons in order to compete - I can join the club no probelm - which I did - but I can't compete because I can't afford 3 private lessons a month. How does an amateur get sponsored?

[syncopationator]

You are in a tough situation. Some people have the money to do it and some don't and have to figure out other ways to make it work. Are you a good dancer? if not, then you need to work your tail off to become better and then someone looking for a partner may be willing to foot the bill to get a quality partner.

[dancepro]

So I have a really rude question and I aplogize in advance if I offend anyone and if it's really truly inappropriate then, by all means, please have a moderator remove this thread. Here we go: So, I've been out of the loop for a while and even when I was "in the loop" things were a bit different for me because the school I went to was able to acconmodate a lot of thing for me but - How are people affording all of this? I mean, there are amatuers flying out to competitions a few times a year, buying costumes, taking private lessons which cost a small fortune. I would love to compete seriously as an amatuer but I just can't seem to find the money to do so. Any advice/recommendations?

Dearest dancinrina

I do not think this is a rude question. I think it is a very good question. I am surprised that I haven't heard this question before now. It is very basic and real that you need money to do what you want, whenever you want.
My answer to you is, you need to do what most successful people do. You need to create multiple sources of income. My mentor has always priested this fact. He had many sources of income and told me to do the same. My new mentors does the same. I, myself, have multiple sources of income now. I suggest my students to get multiple sources of income. I have helped several students set up other businesses to help them cover the cost of dancing. You need to create a money tree;). You need to look at your and your parents relationship to money. See and understand what you feel about money. Once you understand, you will be able to change that relationship. As you think this is a rude question, that tells me you do not have a good relationship with money. But please understand me right, you do not need another JOB, you need multiple sources of income. Stop trading your time for money. I hope this helps. I understand. Start changing the situation now. All the best.

Dancepro

[and123]

Waitaminute.... which competitions are you speaking of? A college team can't prohibit you from competing. That's *your* decision. Some teams require a monthly/yearly fee and/or sweat equity to subsidize your lesson and entry costs, but other than that, you should be able to do what you please.

[Laura]

Waitaminute.... which competitions are you speaking of? A college team can't prohibit you from competing. That's *your* decision. Some teams require a monthly/yearly fee and/or sweat equity to subsidize your lesson and entry costs, but other than that, you should be able to do what you please.Different teams have different requirements, and they can prohibit someone from competing with the team and taking advantage of any team deals or facilities they have for those who compete if they don't meet those requirements. I think it kind of sucks if they are making a newcomer come up with money for three private lessons a month, but teams can set their own rules as they see fit. If someone isn't a newcomer, then I can understand the requirement: the truth is that it takes private work to improve one's competitive dancing, pure and simple.

Not all teams have the same rules, and also keep in mind that many teams get discounted private lesson rates so it's not going to be as expensive as an adult taking a lesson at an outside studio.

[Ravenmoon]

I'm on a college team so it makes groups lessons cheaper, but as for privates lessons...let's just say, I make sacrifices so I can have my private lessons. My partner and I got lucky, because one of our coaches offers a discount on lessons, but if not for that, we would probably have to cut back on the number of lessons.

[tunape]

So I have a really rude question and I aplogize in advance if I offend anyone and if it's really truly inappropriate then, by all means, please have a moderator remove this thread. Here we go: So, I've been out of the loop for a while and even when I was "in the loop" things were a bit different for me because the school I went to was able to acconmodate a lot of thing for me but - How are people affording all of this? I mean, there are amatuers flying out to competitions a few times a year, buying costumes, taking private lessons which cost a small fortune. I would love to compete seriously as an amatuer but I just can't seem to find the money to do so. Any advice/recommendations?

Chose jobs which pay more and invest time to learn those skills? Dancing related, there's dance taxi. Otherwise freelance computer work(web design, programming, etc..) which can be done with one or two computer courses at the university. There's also finance/i-bank, but that tends to such up time too.

[the_thunderbird52]

So I have a really rude question and I aplogize in advance if I offend anyone and if it's really truly inappropriate then, by all means, please have a moderator remove this thread. Here we go: So, I've been out of the loop for a while and even when I was "in the loop" things were a bit different for me because the school I went to was able to acconmodate a lot of thing for me but - How are people affording all of this? I mean, there are amatuers flying out to competitions a few times a year, buying costumes, taking private lessons which cost a small fortune. I would love to compete seriously as an amatuer but I just can't seem to find the money to do so. Any advice/recommendations?


First, I do not find anything rude about your question. In fact, I think it is a very valid question. Personally, I'm in the same boat. I have resigned myself to the fact that Ballroom dancing is somewhat like Polo and (to some degree) golf. It is a sport reserved to the rich and elite.

I know this doesn't really help, but it is just my own personal observation. As a result, i usually spectate. I might compete once every two years or so, but that's about all i could afford.

Good luck with your dancing though. If nothing else, simply enjoy the social aspect of it.

[Katarzyna]

there's dance taxi..
haha

[lemonade]

What is a dance taxi?

[Throwaway Overshare]

the term is taxi dancer

[Katarzyna]

carrying students around the dance floor, kinda like pro am but in social setting (and pro is typically just an experienced am)

[Kassia]

It's all about decisions and priorities.. It comes down to the fact that you can't have everything in life.. It's a precarious balance but if you want to dance more you have to give up something else.. One reason we can afford to dance, and travel for that matter, more than friends our age is because we have no kids.... Try to remember that if you can't afford to pay for it you simply cannot do it..

[Laura]

the term is taxi dancer
Ahh! I was wondering what tunape meant! I was imagining a taxi where dancers would win money, sort of like "Cash Cab."

[lemonade]

I have never heard of this? Is this something they do in studio practice parties? Like a more experiened student would dance with others for practice??

[Katarzyna]

mostly popular in chinese studios... and usually its not exactly for practice, typically, not always but typically, the person is older and they want to dance with someone better than their significant other, l or have no person to dance with or dance in an old age for exercise..

[Ithink]

If I weren't dancing, I'd have a LOT of money left over to save, take trips, shop at Bloomingdale's, etc. But I dance and so I don't. I save what I can, take shorter vacations, work all the overtime I can when allowed to do so in my company, shop at Loehmann's, etc.

Now that amateurs are allowed to teach, I am thinking that maybe I should start because money is more tight now that I am a homeowner of a home bought before the market crashed...

[Laura]

I have never heard of this? Is this something they do in studio practice parties? Like a more experiened student would dance with others for practice??
It's not common in the USA outside of a certain group of studios that cater to the Chinese community in New York (and possibly other major cities, but I've never heard of it except in NYC).

[Katarzyna]

Heard its Huge in Hong Kong

[dancinrina]

Ahh! I was wondering what tunape meant! I was imagining a taxi where dancers would win money, sort of like "Cash Cab."

LMAO

So, bottom line is, with the looming prospect of going to med-school next year, my dancing career is, after a very short revival, once again on hold.... crud. Which brings me to a different question - someone mentioned getting a partner. Is there any site that I can go on where people are actually looking for partners where you don't have to pay to sign up? I tried craigslist but that didn't work very well.

[Katarzyna]

ballroomdancers dot com

[Egoist]

carrying students around the dance floor, kinda like pro am but in social setting (and pro is typically just an experienced am)

You mean like a "dance gigolo"?

I see a limited market for these.

Now I have that Tina Turner song stuck in my head.

[Laura]

If I weren't dancing, I'd have a LOT of money left over to save, take trips, shop at Bloomingdale's, etc. But I dance and so I don't.
Yep, that's for sure. There was a 5 month period last year when I didn't take lessons and didn't compete and it was very interesting to see how much more disposable income I had.

I have two hobbies that are pretty expensive, dancing and travel photography. I'm facing down the stark reality that I'm going to have to give up one of them for now. And it's going to be the travel photography...I've got two photo trips planned for this year and then that's going to be it for a good long while.

[Katarzyna]

You mean like a "dance gigolo"?

I see a limited market for these.

Now I have that Tina Turner song stuck in my head.
lol there are numerous studios in NY targetting primarily that..

[Masaya]

LMAO

So, bottom line is, with the looming prospect of going to med-school next year, my dancing career is, after a very short revival, once again on hold.... crud.

I got into med school last year and realized that with $50,000 tuition a year there was no way I could afford dancing . . . so I reapplied and got into the school's MD/Ph.D program. Free tuition plus $26,000 stipend means I can keep taking lessons!! Of course, it means I now have to stay another 3 years in school . . . :'(

[jivechica]

I'm not sure if this is an inappropriate question but what do people do outside of dance, work wise? I'm just curious how many people dance full time (more or less) vs. how many people work in order to be able to dance.

[latingal]

I'm not sure if this is an inappropriate question but what do people do outside of dance, work wise? I'm just curious how many people dance full time (more or less) vs. how many people work in order to be able to dance.

No inappropriate at all, but this might be a good subject for a new thread, don't want to throw this one too far off course from the original question....

[_malakawa_]

why don't you do Pro Am??

how much experiance you have in dancing?? maybe you can work as a dance teacher??

when you want something so passionately you need to choose your priorities.

i was 18 years old when i finished my high school and start with university, but i also found myself a second job. at the age of 17 i started to teach.

my parents said to me that if i want to dance i need to work because they don't have money.

i had 2 jobs, university and i practiced every day for 2,3 hours. i found myself a sponsors and it was going.

i couldn't afford myself to go out every weekend, to spend money on coffee ..... dancing was my priority.

[Masaya]

You just have to figure out ways to lower your other costs. The on-campus housing at my med school was $700 a month which I thought was ridiculous. I looked hard in the neighborhood and found a great place for $150 a month! That's $550 x 12 = $6600 a year that can go to dancing instead . . . If you try really hard you will find a way :)

[SwingWaltz]

I'm an undergraduate in Biomedicine and have been dancing since the start of uni, and now I am in my final year. For the first couple of years I danced at the university club, mainly beginners but it only costed $100 a semester. Now I have taken up Dancesport competitively and it's costing me $100 a week on dancing + petrol to get to dance.

So this is how I cope. During uni semester I have a full + over load at uni, so I can't really get a big part time job, so I tutor highschool students. Outside uni semester I work full time, sometimes a bit over (45-50hr week) and I try to save up as much as possible. Living with parents help. I be nice around the house when ever possible so the parents sometimes chip in. :D I gave up my other long time hobby of keeping tropical fish, selling everything I had over the years generated some cash. I don't go out drinking on weekends, and very seldomly go see a movie (less than a handful a year). Basically I live between Uni, Studio and Home, no other social life. I'm loving every minute of it.

[Becca]

I afford it with a lot of credit cards! And even then, I'm only just managing!

[_malakawa_]

I'm an undergraduate in Biomedicine and have been dancing since the start of uni, and now I am in my final year. For the first couple of years I danced at the university club, mainly beginners but it only costed $100 a semester. Now I have taken up Dancesport competitively and it's costing me $100 a week on dancing + petrol to get to dance.

So this is how I cope. During uni semester I have a full + over load at uni, so I can't really get a big part time job, so I tutor highschool students. Outside uni semester I work full time, sometimes a bit over (45-50hr week) and I try to save up as much as possible. Living with parents help. I be nice around the house when ever possible so the parents sometimes chip in. :D I gave up my other long time hobby of keeping tropical fish, selling everything I had over the years generated some cash. I don't go out drinking on weekends, and very seldomly go see a movie (less than a handful a year). Basically I live between Uni, Studio and Home, no other social life. I'm loving every minute of it.


that was my life. :rocker: http://www.cosgan.de/images/smilie/froehlich/e025.gif

[lemonade]

This is a relief to hear:) I forfeit so many things that are considered normal by my friends. But I just view them as dollars taken away from dance clothes, lessons, shoes, etc. I cannot justify the expense when I look at it that way. But it is not really a sacrifice just a way to live life differently than many people do I guess. Also, I think it must be true for anyone who has a relatively 'financially challenging hobby' Whether its white water rafting or windsurfing or rockclimbing. If you are really happy doing something you commit to it and giving up things that dont contribute to that hobby becomes easy.

[Ravenmoon]

Well, all this conversation goes to show if dance is just a hobby then people won't be willing to give up a lot for it, but if you are truely dedicated to it, then you will do whatever it takes.

[lemonade]

Well, all this conversation goes to show if dance is just a hobby then people won't be willing to give up a lot for it, but if you are truely dedicated to it, then you will do whatever it takes.


That is a good point. I say hobby because I don't know a better or more accurate word. But it is definitely much more than a hobby...

[tunape]

I'm not sure if this is an inappropriate question but what do people do outside of dance, work wise? I'm just curious how many people dance full time (more or less) vs. how many people work in order to be able to dance.

Grad student here. feels like I'm getting a degree in dance, but not. :) The benefits of being a student is a lot of time to practice, but not a lot of money. When I need a little extra cash, I do small freelance jobs(eg. programming) or TA courses(not in CS). In the past, I've also tutored students - which can be good money too.

[tunape]

I got into med school last year and realized that with $50,000 tuition a year there was no way I could afford dancing . . . so I reapplied and got into the school's MD/Ph.D program. Free tuition plus $26,000 stipend means I can keep taking lessons!! Of course, it means I now have to stay another 3 years in school . . . :'(

wait, many MD/PhD's I know have even less time to dance than MD or PhD alone!

[Standarddancer]

carrying students around the dance floor, kinda like pro am but in social setting (and pro is typically just an experienced am)

dance taxi...oh my... you guys cracking me up:):)

[Standarddancer]

Heard its Huge in Hong Kong

also popular in china, Japan, Taiwan, also heard popular in San Francisco Chinese Studio, where social dancing ladies who do not want to dance with their s/o or someone less experienced but prefer to practice with a higher level experienced competitor, so they'd rather pay an hourly rate (varies by studio or teacher) to get experienced dancer to practice / or exercise. dance taxi is a fun term, I've heard much more offensive term than this one, not gonna to post here;)

[tunape]

Is there any site that I can go on where people are actually looking for partners where you don't have to pay to sign up? I tried craigslist but that didn't work very well.

I should also push for the Facebook "Ballroom" application for partner search. There is a good crowd of collegiate and younger dancers.

[Masaya]

wait, many MD/PhD's I know have even less time to dance than MD or PhD alone!

Haha, I'm not too concerned about the workload . . . what matters is that I have the money to dance!

[dancinrina]

So, how does an amateur get sponsored?

[_malakawa_]

So, how does an amateur get sponsored?

this can go to another thread. ;)

my sponsors were Shiseido and Bourjois make up and Red Bull.

I just send them my dance resume, my partner and i danced on their promotions, on a competition we had their signs on our clothes ..... :p

[NoDayButToday]

This is all VERY informative and not at all rude. :)

This is an expensive sport... although aren't all things fabulous? I'd say to work overtime if your parents can't pitch in and SAVE! Also, having a partner cuts the cost of lessons and comps, so that's a plus. Basically be cost efficient as much as possible... with dance AND with personal interests.

[dancinrina]

This is all great advice and I wish it was relevant. But, between school, 4 jobs and no help from the parents, just finding time to dance is difficult - moreover saving enough for comps. And then of course there is the eternal partner dilema.... I really wish I didn't quit 5 years ago.

[dancepro]

This is all great advice and I wish it was relevant. But, between school, 4 jobs and no help from the parents, just finding time to dance is difficult - moreover saving enough for comps. And then of course there is the eternal partner dilema.... I really wish I didn't quit 5 years ago.

You need to stop trading you time for money. Look into multiple sources of income. That doesn't mean another JOB that means a business where you can leverage your time. I applaud you for having 4 jobs, it means you are not afraid of hard work. I would love to have employees like that. I however do not thing you are going to get ahead with working more or harder. I think you would be better of to redirect your effort.

All the best

Dancepro

[QPO]

I don't smoke or drink (lots) ;-) but in the end you have to choose how you spend the money. We don't go out for dinner as I can cook two or three meals for the price of going out to dinner. But I agree it can be costly, as long as you don't put yourself into financial distress, you can't take it with you.

[Merrylegs]

4 jobs

This is the part that confuses me, actually. Can you find 1 job that pays what all the others are paying or choose the job that pays the most and increase your hours there? The time you spend traveling from one job to the next could be spent working, and getting paid to work!

There is the situation of being under-employed and I wonder if that is the case here. You work so many jobs because none of them pay enough to support your lifestyle when seeking out a better paying single job will eliminate a lot of the stress.

Just my $.02.

[Joe]

Work more or better. Spend less on other stuff. Find a Sugar Daddy/Mamma. Rob a bank.
Start hooking on the side.

[Peaches]

You need to stop trading you time for money. Look into multiple sources of income. That doesn't mean another JOB that means a business where you can leverage your time. I applaud you for having 4 jobs, it means you are not afraid of hard work. I would love to have employees like that. I however do not thing you are going to get ahead with working more or harder. I think you would be better of to redirect your effort.

All the best

Dancepro(my bold) Business are fine and dandy on a lot of levels, but as DH puts it (started his own company several years ago, does it full time)...it's its own special Hell. Be very careful if you decide to go down this route. Talk with other small business owners, do your research, do a lot of soul searching. I'm not sayng it's a bad thing, I'm just saying there's a lot more than you probably realize. And it can be absolute hell. Or...not.

[Purr]

Start hooking on the side.

:rolleyes:

[the_thunderbird52]

Try to find a sponsor.

Can ammatures get a sponsor? I was always told by "potential sponsors" that they "only sponsor professionals".

[Laura]

It is allowed for Amateurs to be sponsored. As for if someone actually wants to sponsor you, that's a different story.

There are definitely some Amateurs who have sponsorships.

Keep in mind that sponsorship is a form of advertising for the sponsor, so sponsorships from ballroom-related-businesses generally go to the higher-ranking and highly-visible couples. Also, having a personal relationship with the business helps. Back when I had a dress making business, I sponsored an Amateur couple who were very good friends of mine because I wanted to support their dancing.

[_malakawa_]

Can ammatures get a sponsor? I was always told by "potential sponsors" that they "only sponsor professionals".


yes, amateurs can have sponsors. i was an amateur with sponsors.

but, how laura said, you need to find sponsors whom will support you.

and it is truth that that is in one way an advertising for them. ;)

[_malakawa_]

This is all great advice and I wish it was relevant. But, between school, 4 jobs and no help from the parents, just finding time to dance is difficult - moreover saving enough for comps. And then of course there is the eternal partner dilema.... I really wish I didn't quit 5 years ago.


what kind of jobs you are working and when??

sorry for asking, i hope that i am not rude right now, but 1,2 jobs can be enough, it just depend what are you working. ;)

[Josh]

(my bold) Business are fine and dandy on a lot of levels, but as DH puts it (started his own company several years ago, does it full time)...it's its own special Hell. Be very careful if you decide to go down this route. Talk with other small business owners, do your research, do a lot of soul searching. I'm not sayng it's a bad thing, I'm just saying there's a lot more than you probably realize. And it can be absolute hell. Or...not.

I don't think dancepro is talking about starting new regular businesses, she's talking about passive or residual income that requires little active involvement. Which of course requires time, but not the same level as that of an actively managed small business.

[Laura]

Don't get involved with any pyramid schemes :)

[Standarddancer]

I don't think dancepro is talking about starting new regular businesses, she's talking about passive or residual income that requires little active involvement. Which of course requires time, but not the same level as that of an actively managed small business.

hmmm....passive or residual income, sounds easy, but actual tricky...what an dancer could do? I've seen high net worth individuals invests in real estate business or has investment portfolio creates multiple income, interest, dividends, capital gain, etc...but those requires huge amount of financial resource to start with...most dancers don't have such huge amount of cash on hand for investment to start with...which dancepro could specify more what exactly dancers could expand their income source without substantial involvement of time, interesting!!!

[latingal]

Start hooking on the side.

ummm Joe, pg-13? *grin*

[Laura]

He was talking about catching fish in local bodies of water to save money on groceries :) Although I'm not sure I would do it in the San Francisco Bay.

[samina]

i was gonna jump to his defense in the same way, but backed off...lol...you're a better woman than i. :)

DF ladies are so totally in my head this week... so many of you have taken the words right out of my mouth before i could formulate them.

[dancepro]

I don't think dancepro is talking about starting new regular businesses, she's talking about passive or residual income that requires little active involvement. Which of course requires time, but not the same level as that of an actively managed small business.

Exactly my point. Do not start a regular business unless you want to kill yourself with the work load. If you have to be present for you business to operate, you don't have a business, you have a JOB. You have got to find a business that can make you money while you are sleeping. My mentor calls it "mailbox money". You go to the mailbox to pick up the checks and then deposit them into your bank account. Do be very careful with what you choose to do as your "mailbox job".

Everybody has something that they are better at then others, that information or service can be sold. I am sure you go around everyday saying, "sure others would need that" or "I wish I could get this or that" or "there must be a better or easier way to do this or that". Start thinking out side of the box. There are so many ideas out there, if you would only look for them. So keep eyes and ears open, ask for a solution to your work dilemma. I am sure you will come up with something. All the best.

Dancepro

[LatinDancer006]

I afford it with a lot of credit cards! And even then, I'm only just managing!

I know you're just being facitious. It's very temping, but I don't recommend using credit cards at all. The interest rate is above 32%. You're never going be able to pay off your student loans and these credit cards balances.

[Josh]

hmmm....passive or residual income, sounds easy, but actual tricky...what an dancer could do? I've seen high net worth individuals invests in real estate business or has investment portfolio creates multiple income, interest, dividends, capital gain, etc...but those requires huge amount of financial resource to start with...most dancers don't have such huge amount of cash on hand for investment to start with...which dancepro could specify more what exactly dancers could expand their income source without substantial involvement of time, interesting!!!

"It takes money to make money" is a hugely limiting belief, though it's yours to have if you want it--if that were true, logically, you'd have to be born with money to be wealthy, think about it. That would kind of put those born without lots of money in a life doomed to struggle wouldn't it?

[dancepro]

hmmm....passive or residual income, sounds easy, but actual tricky
Passive or residual income is the only way to go if you want to make loads of easy money. Each income only needs to be a couple of hundred dollars a week, but if you have more then 10 or more, even little amount will soon ad up. My mom always used to say that, many small streams will make one big river:).
...what an dancer could do? I've seen high net worth individuals invests in real estate business or has investment portfolio creates multiple income, interest, dividends, capital gain, etc...but those requires huge amount of financial resource to start with...most dancers don't have such huge amount of cash on hand for investment to start with...which dancepro could specify more what exactly dancers could expand their income source without substantial involvement of time, interesting!!!
You don't need money to make money. Yes.... I know this is a cliché. What you are talking about (real estate investing) is what you do once you make so much residual income, that you have money to spare to invest or you are using other peoples money. I am not talking about that.

I am talking about experiences, interests, hobbies, job knowledge and ideas that could be formated into a service (an internet service or sell the idea). You set up a website and start networking with friends and family. This is not a get rich quick idea, but it works. I have students that have done exactly that. If after one or two month it only paid for one lesson, that is still one more lesson than last month:). There are workshop out there, where they teach you how to do this, and they are very often free for the first 6 weeks. After that they might charge you a percentage to help you set up a business ( and after 6 weeks you should be able to do everything yourself) or if you do it by yourself it will just be the cost of web-hosting. Start small. Start listening for what services people are looking for, help them get it and you charge a fee for helping them. Then later help others do the same as you did;).

I hope this helps

Dancepro

[NURDRMS]

Ahh! I was wondering what tunape meant! I was imagining a taxi where dancers would win money, sort of like "Cash Cab."

And here I was thinking it was something along the lines of dancing around the taxis stopped at red lights for donations, kinda like the folks who catch you waiting at a red light and clean your windshield!

[Peaches]

"It takes money to make money" is a hugely limiting belief, though it's yours to have if you want it--if that were true, logically, you'd have to be born with money to be wealthy, think about it. That would kind of put those born without lots of money in a life doomed to struggle wouldn't it?And what about that isn't true for the vast majority of people in the world???

[dancinrina]

what kind of jobs you are working and when??

sorry for asking, i hope that i am not rude right now, but 1,2 jobs can be enough, it just depend what are you working. ;)

I work 1/2 a day as a research assistant in a lab - pays crap but it's good experience which I need and can't really trade off. 1/2 day as a marketing/personal assistant. some evening as a bartender and saturday mornings as a dental assistant.

[the_thunderbird52]

So I have a really rude question and I aplogize in advance if I offend anyone and if it's really truly inappropriate then, by all means, please have a moderator remove this thread. Here we go: So, I've been out of the loop for a while and even when I was "in the loop" things were a bit different for me because the school I went to was able to acconmodate a lot of thing for me but - How are people affording all of this? I mean, there are amatuers flying out to competitions a few times a year, buying costumes, taking private lessons which cost a small fortune. I would love to compete seriously as an amatuer but I just can't seem to find the money to do so. Any advice/recommendations?

I don't think your question is rude at all. I'm in the same boat. First, there are so few male dancers to dance with, and that usually leaves pro-am. That's insanely expensive. In the end, i feel like ballroom is a sport/art that (like golf, or Polo) is relegated to the rich and elite.

:(

[Josh]

And what about that isn't true for the vast majority of people in the world???

The sad thing is, you're right, but it's not because they need money to make more. If most people were born into money they'd lose it before they were adults, because most people are incapable of being able to handle money in their present stage of growth as individuals.

We are like containers for various types of success, whether that be financial, relational, professional, or anything else. We have as much success as we can handle at the present--to have more, we must grow ourselves more. Giving a million bucks to someone who is broke won't help them (aka lottery, where I have heard that 1 in 3 are completely broke within 5 years)--it's like overfilling your gas tank and expecting your car to travel farther. We must be bigger to handle more.

There are plenty of people out there who are successful despite having been born with little. Those are the ones who decided to get off the treadmill that everyone told them was the "comfortable" life and stop trading 40+ hours a week for pennies! And this applies to anywhere in the world, not dependent on where one lives.

[dancepro]

The sad thing is, you're right, but it's not because they need money to make more. If most people were born into money they'd lose it before they were adults, because most people are incapable of being able to handle money in their present stage of growth as individuals.

We are like containers for various types of success, whether that be financial, relational, professional, or anything else. We have as much success as we can handle at the present--to have more, we must grow ourselves more. Giving a million bucks to someone who is broke won't help them (aka lottery, where I have heard that 1 in 3 are completely broke within 5 years)--it's like overfilling your gas tank and expecting your car to travel farther. We must be bigger to handle more.

There are plenty of people out there who are successful despite having been born with little. Those are the ones who decided to get off the treadmill that everyone told them was the "comfortable" life and stop trading 40+ hours a week for pennies! And this applies to anywhere in the world, not dependent on where one lives.

I totally agree....you are so right. I really like your thinking. We are on the same wavelength on this subject.

It is sad, but if you want more, you have to be willing to get out the box. You have to give to gain. The giving can be anything like time, energy, old beliefs, studying and, yes, sometimes money. My dad actually always told me to be careful with free information, as it is normally not worth anything, that is why it is free. Most successful people are totally willing to share, how they got successful, to people that show real and sincere willingness to give something, to change and work hard on the change.

Dancepro

[gclarke]

If most people were born into money they'd lose it before they were adults, because most people are incapable of being able to handle money in their present stage of growth as individuals.
...... There are plenty of people out there who are successful despite having been born with little. Those are the ones who decided to get off the treadmill that everyone told them was the "comfortable" life and stop trading 40+ hours a week for pennies! And this applies to anywhere in the world, not dependent on where one lives.
So true - I woke up at age 40 with barely a penny to my name and made a plan to retire at 55. I made it bang on queue.

Don't you kinda get tired though, of people saying 'gosh you're lucky to be able to do what you want'?

I usually tell them I worked very hard at 'being lucky'. ;)

[Joe]

"It takes money to make money" is a hugely limiting belief, though it's yours to have if you want it--if that were true, logically, you'd have to be born with money to be wealthy, think about it. That would kind of put those born without lots of money in a life doomed to struggle wouldn't it?
It takes money or time (time is money!) to make money.

[gclarke]

It takes money or time (time is money!) to make money.

Most of the time but not always in my opinion.

An ability to see or find opportunities is often a key factor.

[Josh]

It takes money or time (time is money!) to make money.

Lol, this so reminds me of the "woman equals problems" equation. Google for some of the words time, equals, money, women, and you will find it. Ladies please don't get offended, it's just clever math, I'm sure the same could be done for men.

And I agree Joe, that it takes some time to make money, but often not as much time as what people think, not nearly so. It takes some time to do anything, literally, and while some people trade 40 hours a week for $X, others find ways to trade 10 hours a week for a whole lot more! Or, once a system is set up and running smoothly, it takes maybe 1 hour a week or month to maintain the system, while the money flows in. In this case you accomplish this by trading not your own time, but others' time, for money, which becomes the most efficient way. This is a win-win: others make money, and so do you.

[dancepro]

Lol, this so reminds me of the "woman equals problems" equation. Google for some of the words time, equals, money, women, and you will find it. Ladies please don't get offended, it's just clever math, I'm sure the same could be done for men.

I am a female myself, but I do a lot of female winers that look at the problem as a wall that can't be climbed. Stop wining and get started who ever you are!


And I agree Joe, that it takes some time to make money, but often not as much time as what people think, not nearly so. It takes some time to do anything, literally, and while some people trade 40 hours a week for $X, others find ways to trade 10 hours a week for a whole lot more! Or, once a system is set up and running smoothly, it takes maybe 1 hour a week or month to maintain the system, while the money flows in. In this case you accomplish this by trading not your own time, but others' time, for money, which becomes the most efficient way. This is a win-win: others make money, and so do you.

Again I have to agree with Josh.

To further make my point I have included some quotes from some great people.

The accumulation of wealth calls for power and power is acquired through highly organized and specialized knowledge, but that knowledge does not necessarily have to be in the possession of the person who accumulates the fortune.”

Napoleon Hill


“If you are one of those people who think that hard work and honesty, alone, will bring riches, perish the thought! It is not true!
Riches, when they come in huge quantities, are never the result of hard work!
Riches come, if they come at all, in response to definite demands, based upon the application of definite principles, and not by change or luck.”

Napoleon Hill


Never look at the visible supply; always look at the limitless riches in the formless substance and know that they are coming to you as fast as you can receive and use them. Nobody, by cornering the visible supply, can prevent you from getting what is yours.”

Wallace D. Wattles


" The common denominator of success is in forming the habit of doing the things that failures don’t like to do.”


Albert E. N. Gray


“Why are successful people able to do things they don’t like to do while failures are not? Because successful people have a purpose- strong enough to make them form the habit of doing things they don’t like to do in order to accomplish the purpose they want to accomplish.”

Albert E. N. Gray


“People are anxious to improve their circumstances but unwilling to improve themselves, they therefore remain bound.”

James Allen


“’Getting ready’ is, quite frankly, a stalling tactic, an act of anxiety, a con game you’re working on yourself. You are already positioned to escape to a higher plane of performance. If you wait until you get it perfect, you will never get it at all.”

Price Pritchett

So just do it.

Dancepro

[the_thunderbird52]

yes, amateurs can have sponsors. i was an amateur with sponsors.

but, how laura said, you need to find sponsors whom will support you.

and it is truth that that is in one way an advertising for them. ;)

Please forgive me for being so dumb, but exactly how does a sponsor get advertizing by sponsoring an ammature dancer?

[dancinrina]

Please forgive me for being so dumb, but exactly how does a sponsor get advertizing by sponsoring an ammature dancer?

Excellent question - I was just wondering that myself.

[dancepro]

Please forgive me for being so dumb, but exactly how does a sponsor get advertizing by sponsoring an ammature dancer?

You are not dumb, that is a very good question. I was from a little town of only 250,000 people, how could I get sponsors. Well I started thinking out of the box. Because it was a small community it was easy to find somebody that knew somebody that was willing and able to help us. We paid a small finders fee and this is what he came up with. He got two sponsors for us, one was an airline company and the other was a shoe company.

The airline sponsored 30 round tickets (free flight) each (total 60 tickets for the two of us) per year. In return we had to do ad's in different magazines and before on ads before the trailers in the cinemas. We also had to do 4 shows for them a year, one for their stock holders party, the Christmas party and two employees parties. We had to do group classes as a six week course twice a year. We had to where their sponsored clothing, with their logo's on whenever we traveled. To us that was a great deal.

The other was Freed shoes. This was before the shoe companies stared sponsoring, like they do today. We would get ten pairs of shoes each per year. We had to wear the shoes, do ads and we had to help at their stand at three competitions a year.

I am sure their are many other ways to give back. Look at what you can and are willing to give, then look at the companies could use that service. The company might not think they need your service, but you have to create a need. You will of cause have to think a little, be creative, but dancing is so popular now that it is easier today to get sponsors then it has ever been. So get you creative juices going and think out of the box.

All the best

Dancepro

[dancinrina]

You are not dumb, that is a very good question. I was from a little town of only 250,000 people, how could I get sponsors. Well I started thinking out of the box. Because it was a small community it was easy to find somebody that knew somebody that was willing and able to help us. We paid a small finders fee and this is what he came up with. He got two sponsors for us, one was an airline company and the other was a shoe company.

The airline sponsored 30 round tickets (free flight) each (total 60 tickets for the two of us) per year. In return we had to do ad's in different magazines and before on ads before the trailers in the cinemas. We also had to do 4 shows for them a year, one for their stock holders party, the Christmas party and two employees parties. We had to do group classes as a six week course twice a year. We had to where their sponsored clothing, with their logo's on whenever we traveled. To us that was a great deal.

The other was Freed shoes. This was before the shoe companies stared sponsoring, like they do today. We would get ten pairs of shoes each per year. We had to wear the shoes, do ads and we had to help at their stand at three competitions a year.

I am sure their are many other ways to give back. Look at what you can and are willing to give, then look at the companies could use that service. The company might not think they need your service, but you have to create a need. You will of cause have to think a little, be creative, but dancing is so popular now that it is easier today to get sponsors then it has ever been. So get you creative juices going and think out of the box.

All the best

Dancepro

Yes, but the question still stands: why sponsor amateurs like that when there are plenty of pros - especially in today's dance crazy world - to do the same?

[mamboqueen]

Yes, but the question still stands: why sponsor amateurs like that when there are plenty of pros - especially in today's dance crazy world - to do the same?

Here are a few reasons I can think of (although they're just my thinking - I don't know if any of them are what a sponsor would think):

- a company wants to sponsor local people for advertising to a local demographic

- there is something in particular that a company finds appealing in a particular couple that other couples might not have (could be anything from height, hair color, married couple, age....)

- a lot of amateur couples out there are, in some people's thoughts, better than some of the professionals. Maybe the sponsor would want to attach themself to an "up and coming" couple rather than one that has been around for a while.

- a sponsor might be interested in who is watching the events an amateur couple vs a pro couple, the amount of spectators that will be at such events and if that segment is more likely to buy their product.

- a sponsor might think that pros aren't as much in need (and pros, relax, I said "might") because they are making a living in their field and amateurs might be perceived as being more in financial need.

I think a lot of this is about really selling yourself to a sponsor and making the case for why they should sponsor you and not someone else. I can't imagine just walking into a company and merely suggesting they sponsor you is going to get a very enthusiastic response. If you're serious about it, write some letters - easy enough to mass produce -- and send a picture and a video (or link). Then follow up with it. Persistence can help, as can creativity.

Just my 2 cents...and none of this is based on having actually been sponsored (although I did once write a letter, and I've dropped a lot of hints ;)).

Forgot one -- have you paid a lot of money to a particular company over the years for their product or service? I'd hit them up, too. You've "sponsored" them with your business, and they may return the favor.

[_malakawa_]

Please forgive me for being so dumb, but exactly how does a sponsor get advertizing by sponsoring an ammature dancer?

like dancepro and mamboqueen said when some company sponsor you, you have to have their name on your clothes, you have to dance on their parties ......

for example - when shiseido sponsored me, i had their logo on my dress and on my make up bag.

it is not important that you need to be a professional. companies also sponsor amateur the same as professionals because you are competing. amateur competitions are strong like professional competitions.

(difference is if you are professional you can have a licence to judge and to teach, and as amateur you cannot. )

[Josh]

(difference is if you are professional you can have a licence to judge and to teach, and as amateur you cannot. )

And as has been said on many threads (ad nausem), this is no longer true. But let's not talking about it now please...

[Josh]

Dancepro, great ideas on sponsorship! Especially the airline tickets... wow!

[dancepro]

Dancepro, great ideas on sponsorship! Especially the airline tickets... wow!

I have fun finding new ideas and different ways to do things. In my family we would often do the game "how we can". I loved/love that game. I still use this game very often.

Dancepro

[Standarddancer]

Talking about females and financials, just read from a magazine over the weekend an accomplished female financial advisor saying "women have to save more and manage their finance better than men because we live longer and earn less...", quite true, unfortunately, in this country, for doing the same job, a lot of times men got paid more than women, including dancing and nondancing related work...I hope I don't open a can of worm here. But seen this happened before, hope I don't offend anyone here.

[mochahontas]

I'm sure most people will agree that ballroom is a very expensive sport, and it seems like it only gets more expensive as skill level increases. How do people pay for it? What do the top women - e.g. Yulia, Carolina Telona, Liana Churilova, etc. - do to pay for costumes, travel, coaching, and the like? Do they even have to? I assume they make so much money teaching and have so many connections that they don't have to worry about the expenses, or they have sponsors, or some combination of both, but I don't know. How exactly does this work? And how does one get a sponsor? At what stage do you reach the point where you're just dancing and getting paid for it, not giving money to everyone else all the time?

[debmc]

I would assume that the top pros make money coaching, performing and get sponsored enough to make a good living. Now us proam students... that's a different story! :) How do we afford it! :)

[famfam]

yeah i thought the topic was about pro/am students

i know i would have no chance to finance that...(happy am/am dancer here)

[fascination]

yes...sponsorship, coaching, etc

[itsthisgirl]

Well i am also in college and paying for that also with a just above minimum wage job. I find i have given up any 'social life' i used to have. Instead of eating out I've learned to love ramen noodles and spaghetti (making some right now as i type this), and no shopping sprees, just buy what you need. I make just enough to pay my bills and dance while maintaining a decent bank account. Heres a tip (and it depends on the person), i put everything on a credit card to build up skymiles so i can travel with that. But i also know my limit on that, some people can't handle that or dont feel comfortable and i respect them just as much for knowing their limits. just a few thoughts. OH and MARRY PRINCE HARRY is on my list of things to do lol

[danceronice]

For the top competitive pros? Sponsors and charging tons for coaching.

For the rest of us? Have a really good job, marry someone with money, or just be born lucky. Me, I moved somewhere cheaper to live. More like dumb luck I wound up near NP, but it does mean I can dance and have the horse, too, now.

[itsthisgirl]

For the top competitive pros? Sponsors and charging tons for coaching.

For the rest of us? Have a really good job, marry someone with money, or just be born lucky. Me, I moved somewhere cheaper to live. More like dumb luck I wound up near NP, but it does mean I can dance and have the horse, too, now.

any other money saving tips? even as far as buying used costumes (i've noticed some of those are even pricey)? Just places that you may have cut back to allow more dancing 'stuff'?

Although my goal is to marry prince harry i dont see it every happening (although a girl can dream). So i dont see 'rich' in my future, although i will remain hopeful.

[danceronice]

I'm the wrong person to ask. No dependents (unless you count the dogs, cats, and horses), access to capital even though my job is not especially well-paying, and no debt unless you count the mortgage (which is not much.) Tip would be "Buy oil stock and have someone to pay for all your degrees so you don't have loans." (I have three college degrees and they were all paid at once.) Also, "live somewhere cheap." My mortgage payments are 1/3 what my rent was in Boston and I have a house on a half acre.

For costumes? Used will save you a little ($2k instead of $3k) but the big thing is, buy quality. Don't blow money on supertrendy stuff that'll look dated in six months, and don't try to be cheap (if it says "Korean" rhinestones, pass, you'll look cheap.) It's like buying any other clothes, one expensive but classic piece goes farther. An unstoned dress is better than one that's stoned with cheap materials. You can learn to stone yourself (and people will pay you for it! It's tedious, but not that difficult to do.)

Oh, and if you're eating on the cheap--rice. A rice cooker is your friend. Rice and beans are cheap and better for you than ramen. ;) (I <3 my new rice cooker. Works great for steel-cut oats, too.)

[itsthisgirl]

I'm the wrong person to ask. No dependents (unless you count the dogs, cats, and horses), access to capital even though my job is not especially well-paying, and no debt unless you count the mortgage (which is not much.) Tip would be "Buy oil stock and have someone to pay for all your degrees so you don't have loans." (I have three college degrees and they were all paid at once.) Also, "live somewhere cheap." My mortgage payments are 1/3 what my rent was in Boston and I have a house on a half acre.

For costumes? Used will save you a little ($2k instead of $3k) but the big thing is, buy quality. Don't blow money on supertrendy stuff that'll look dated in six months, and don't try to be cheap (if it says "Korean" rhinestones, pass, you'll look cheap.) It's like buying any other clothes, one expensive but classic piece goes farther. An unstoned dress is better than one that's stoned with cheap materials. You can learn to stone yourself (and people will pay you for it! It's tedious, but not that difficult to do.)

Oh, and if you're eating on the cheap--rice. A rice cooker is your friend. Rice and beans are cheap and better for you than ramen. ;) (I <3 my new rice cooker. Works great for steel-cut oats, too.)

i also have no kids, no mortgage, and i am making out of school with no debt (that is my priority). I also have a rice cooker and it is definitely my friend! his name is fred (yes i named my rice cooker). I eat ramen because i can spice it up in different ways. But yes i also do rice and beans sometimes but it tends to get boring after a bit. Thanks for the unstoned costume tip. I can stone costumes (have done it in the past), I just need to find ones that I like that fit my body type. I figure when I graduate in the fall i will have more money at my disposal since I wont be paying for school. I also try to take small gigs in my other dance forms and teach private lessons and pick up extra hours at work, but i find that i tend to go 'ooo more money, more dance stuff!' and then i realize its not enough for dance stuff. Also when i travel i find that i dont stay at the dance venue, its more expensive, i usually stay at a nearby hotel and save a ton of money, and if you have a friend in the hotel business most hotels have a program for family and friends so you get a discount. Its how I usually travel, every little bit helps for the non-rich right?

[pygmalion]

IIRC, there are a couple other threads about the more general question of ordinary mortals affording the dance habit. I don't remember thread titles. Maybe somebody else does. There are lots of other good tips there. :-D

[danceronice]

Heh, we need a "Summon TC" button on here.

Try on lots of costumes, that's really the only way to figure out what works for you. I have five dresses and you don't want to know how long it took to find the Standard gown.

There is nothing wrong with naming kitchen appliances. We had a coffee maker with a name my junior year of undergrad.

[toothlesstiger]

The pros I know have sponsorships that pay for the clothes and the shoes, but they still have to cover their travel and coaching, payed for through their teaching and performing for fee shows.
For those that don't have sufficient recognition for such sponsorship, I know a number of amateur women who have learned to sew their own dresses. A couple are making a living making dresses for other competitors.

[dlgodud]

Some female PROs and AMs make and sell dresses. Some male PROs do PRO-AM. Doing PRO-AM is one big income source for PRO male dancers.

[mochahontas]

Okay, but again, how do you get a sponsor? When and how do you get to the point where people pay you to dance and not the other way around? Do professional ballroom dancers ever stop spending large sums of money on their careers or are they all just coaching like crazy so they can keep up their training and afford to travel? o_o I'm just confused because, coming from a ballet/modern/jazz background, I'm used to a system where dancers pay to train until they get good enough to join a company, then they get hired by a company and, for the most part, don't need to worry about dance-related expenses. So far, it looks like ballroom is quite different.

And itsthisgirl: I love that you named your rice cooker Fred! lol I'm also a college student trying to graduate debt-free, and by the way I think I read in another thread that you're starting out in Silver for your first comp? Congrats!

[dlgodud]

Okay, but again, how do you get a sponsor? When and how do you get to the point where people pay you to dance and not the other way around? Do professional ballroom dancers ever stop spending large sums of money on their careers or are they all just coaching like crazy so they can keep up their training and afford to travel? o_o I'm just confused because, coming from a ballet/modern/jazz background, I'm used to a system where dancers pay to train until they get good enough to join a company, then they get hired by a company and, for the most part, don't need to worry about dance-related expenses. So far, it looks like ballroom is quite different.



I am not sure, but usually if you are, let's say, you are one of the top 6 couples in the US, you may get sponsorship for your dresses or shoes. But, it all depends on couples. Of course, the top couple in the world gets lots of sponsorship for those. Also, couples do shows and they do get paid for doing those. But, the price are vary based on your ranking, I believe. I heard if you are the top couple in the world, usually the price for one show is $5,000. Also, they get the hotel and tickets from the show host or organizer if they need to travel. In addition, you have an exposure to those tours such as 'DWTS' and 'Burn the Floor', etc., but those professionals don't compete actively as much as I know.

Yes, professional ballroom dancers stop spending for coaching when they usually stop competing and retire from competitive career, but some dancers still get coaching with various reasons. So, the ballroom dancing world is quite different from your previous training. Ballroom dancers pay lots of their own money until they retire from their competitive career. If you want to get all those sponsorship, you need to be placed really well in competitions. Most of professional dancers whom I know have income from teaching.

[NonieS]

A top couple show fee is WAY more than $5000... I wish they were that cheap.

World finalists generally fall around $6000, though a lot of the top top couples (R&Y, A&K) now charge $7,500. For BADC (as well as any other show venue, I would assume), we pay for their hotels, flights, any additional transportation costs (cabs), and food. When Stefano and Olga performed at BADC, I was taking them out for lunch during the day and covered their hotel restaurant/room service tab for breakfast/dinner when they checked out.

A lot of the Europe-based couples we have had (Slavik, Stefano), I paid them in cash, since they didn't have an international bank account and therefore couldn't cash my American check.

So, top professionals do make out quite well at shows.

[3wishes]

"How to you get a sponsor" Have you checked the threads? I'm sure this is there? TC where are you! I know some pro couples, and they simply asked and they stay loyal to their sponsor. That said, costumes, shoes, jewerly is provided by sponsor. The sponsor does not pay entry fees, coaching fees, lessons, air fare, hotel, meals, travel. The pro couples (who i know) earn their living via lessons taught, coachings they provide, competitions with students, exhibitions, hired events where they perform, and that helps pay for them to compete. As well, other pro(s) have regular jobs non-dance related - or part time jobs that support their dancing as well as sponsors. The sport of kings, seemingly enough, does not just relate to thoroughbred horse racing. Snicker.

[itsthisgirl]

If i may piggy back a question on here: So we have to pay the pro's to dance with us. At what point do you become their equal and you split the cost of things? Has anyone ever become their instructors partern at some point? And how was this topic approached of 'we are equal so you pay your half'.

[samina]

Oh, and if you're eating on the cheap--rice. A rice cooker is your friend. Rice and beans are cheap and better for you than ramen. ;) (I <3 my new rice cooker. Works great for steel-cut oats, too.)
i'm thinking rice & beans isn't the best for a great dance figure, tho. starch & bloat city...:rolleyes:

[itsthisgirl]

i'm thinking rice & beans isn't the best for a great dance figure, tho. starch & bloat city...:rolleyes:

thats when you dance with the person you like the least! lol

[samina]

If i may piggy back a question on here: So we have to pay the pro's to dance with us. At what point do you become their equal and you split the cost of things? Has anyone ever become their instructors partern at some point? And how was this topic approached of 'we are equal so you pay your half'.

that is highly unusual, though i believe it has happened.

if you ever go pro and become your instructor's partner in the professional division, everything about your shared goals & the way you share expenses will change, no doubt.

good luck with that. :)

[toothlesstiger]

Like many other career choices, competitive ballroom dancing is not something you do for the money. You do it *if* you have the money and the love for it. A talented, hardworking, and lucky few at the top do pretty well. This is not all that different from other forms of dance. Maybe not so much for jazz, but pointe shoe costs for ballet are nothing to sneeze at.

From the pros I have talked to, up until they retire from competition, they spend everything it takes to place as high as possible. In principle, their highest placing when they retire has an impact on the fees they can command for coaching and shows after retirement.

[Mengu]

If i may piggy back a question on here: So we have to pay the pro's to dance with us. At what point do you become their equal and you split the cost of things? Has anyone ever become their instructors partern at some point? And how was this topic approached of 'we are equal so you pay your half'.

When you turn pro, and your pro partner decides to dance with you as a pro couple, you become equals.

Aside from that, the best I've seen is instances where the pro of a pro-am couple might not charge for his time when the couple is taking lessons from another coach. But I'm guessing even that, is rare.

[NonieS]

Maybe not so much for jazz, but pointe shoe costs for ballet are nothing to sneeze at.


Eh, my friend in the NYCB gets all of her shoes for free. Certainly before she was in the company she was paying out the behind for pointe shoes, but now her company provides her with as many free shoes as she wants.

[jofjonesboro]

i'm thinking rice & beans isn't the best for a great dance figure, tho. starch & bloat city...:rolleyes:

Rice and beans are an excellent dietary choice for anyone. Both foods are naturally very low in fat and the combination of the two provides protein and fiber. Brown (or black) rice should be used instead of white.

Properly prepared, rice and beans will not make you fat. In fact, I know several people who use such dishes to lose weight.

jj

[fascination]

When you turn pro, and your pro partner decides to dance with you as a pro couple, you become equals.

Aside from that, the best I've seen is instances where the pro of a pro-am couple might not charge for his time when the couple is taking lessons from another coach. But I'm guessing even that, is rare.I got to the point in my progress with my first pro that eventually coaching was as much if not more for him at times...and he offered to not be paid for that time...because he was financially precarious I declined, but had that not been the case, it would have been appropriate

[dlgodud]

A top couple show fee is WAY more than $5000... I wish they were that cheap.

World finalists generally fall around $6000, though a lot of the top top couples (R&Y, A&K) now charge $7,500. For BADC (as well as any other show venue, I would assume), we pay for their hotels, flights, any additional transportation costs (cabs), and food. When Stefano and Olga performed at BADC, I was taking them out for lunch during the day and covered their hotel restaurant/room service tab for breakfast/dinner when they checked out.

A lot of the Europe-based couples we have had (Slavik, Stefano), I paid them in cash, since they didn't have an international bank account and therefore couldn't cash my American check.

So, top professionals do make out quite well at shows.

I need some update. lol:p

[fascination]

should you happen to become equal to your pro in skill, you either need to get a better pro, or go pro or accept that you have a scenario that you are paying your equal to dance with you

[dlgodud]

If i may piggy back a question on here: So we have to pay the pro's to dance with us. At what point do you become their equal and you split the cost of things? Has anyone ever become their instructors partern at some point? And how was this topic approached of 'we are equal so you pay your half'.

Yes, if you do PRO-AM competitions, you need to pay the pro to compete with you. But, if you find an AM partner, it is different story. Why don't you look for a AM partner who has the same goal in your level. You can start compete from Silver level and eventually go up to championship level. Once you reach that point, you may decide if you want to stay an AM or turn to PRO. And, the best thing is you can save money from doing that way, and also you may have more practice time with your partner.

[New in NY]

Friend who has been dancing for about a year helps in the studio office in exchange for some free lessons.

[freeageless]

Like many other career choices, competitive ballroom dancing is not something you do for the money. You do it *if* you have the money and the love for it.

Tt, I agree with much of what you post. I do have a question regarding your above post. You may have answered it before. However, I don't remember. Are you saying that if you do have the love for competitive dancing, but you don't have the money forget it, because it is impossible to do it without the money? If that is what you are saying, I don't necessarily disagree with you, because it appears to me from the postings here that those who are doing competitive dancing are spending many thousands of dollars.

[itsthisgirl]

should you happen to become equal to your pro in skill, you either need to get a better pro, or go pro or accept that you have a scenario that you are paying your equal to dance with you

see i fear that it wont take me to terribly long to catch up to most of the instructors where i am at. Although i like most of the instructors i will NOT pay for an equal. I pay to improve and learn more and more and more, not to have an equal dance with me. If it is an equal i expect it to be almost like a social situation where we thank each other for the dance (time) and move on.

Is it common for people to travel about 2 hours out of their area for instruction? I believe the nearest place outside of my area is 2 hours.

[Mengu]

Is it common for people to travel about 2 hours out of their area for instruction? I believe the nearest place outside of my area is 2 hours.

It's not uncommon, depending on location, level, and the frequency of instruction you need. I'd readily travel 2 hours, once or twice a month for good instruction, but probably couldn't do it weekly. It's a matter of time and resources. If I wasn't doing am/am, but was dancing only pro/am, I might do it weekly.

I know at least one local high level pro/am dancer who travels about 2 hours to dance with her primary pro.

You do what you need to, to meet your goals.

[danceronice]

Tt, I agree with much of what you post. I do have a question regarding your above post. You may have answered it before. However, I don't remember. Are you saying that if you do have the love for competitive dancing, but you don't have the money forget it, because it is impossible to do it without the money? If that is what you are saying, I don't necessarily disagree with you, because it appears to me from the postings here that those who are doing competitive dancing are spending many thousands of dollars.

That's sport. (At least niche sports for individuals. I guess team sports might be cheaper, except for the very best of the best who need private training, don't know, never liked them.) You need to have the money for the coaching, the supplies, the time to devote to competing, and if you are VERY VERY VERY good, you can end up making a living at it somehow. How good a living depends on how good you are. But most people will never be that good, ergo they need money if they want to do it on any scale.

[freeageless]

That's sport. (At least niche sports for individuals. I guess team sports might be cheaper, except for the very best of the best who need private training, don't know, never liked them.) You need to have the money for the coaching, the supplies, the time to devote to competing, and if you are VERY VERY VERY good, you can end up making a living at it somehow. How good a living depends on how good you are. But most people will never be that good, ergo they need money if they want to do it on any scale.

Danceronice, thank you for your response. I feel sure that there are many people who love dancing, who have tremendous persistence and determination-and who would love to be good competitive dancers. However, they lack the thousands of dollars that it takes. In my opinion, that is sad-a tragedy.

[DanceMentor]

I lived in the back of a dance studio for a while sometimes making as little as $200/week. I trained myself how to make money on the internet in the wee hours of the night. There was a lot of sacrifice involved but in many ways it was quite a step up from my previous work running a printing press and being exposed to dangerous chemicals. I also incurred credit card debt and had a bad credit rating for several years (which is completely paid off).

I've heard even more powerful stories than mine here on DF, but I think if you want to do something, you become committed to the point where it is going to happen one way or another. It may not be like you planned, but something really worthwhile can take place in your life when you decide to really commit and go after your dreams.

[toothlesstiger]

Danceronice, thank you for your response. I feel sure that there are many people who love dancing, who have tremendous persistence and determination-and who would love to be good competitive dancers. However, they lack the thousands of dollars that it takes. In my opinion, that is sad-a tragedy.

Well, it may be sad, but that's the way it goes. If I have a passion for an activity that is expensive, I've got to find a way to pay or barter for, or make, what I need to participate.

If you want it bad enough, you find a way to make it happen and take your shot. And we should be clear, persistence, determination, sacrifice, ingenuity, and flexibility may get you a shot, it doesn't mean you will succeed. But, after all, isn't it like that for anything worthwhile?

[DL]

I paid them in cash, since they didn't have an international bank account and therefore couldn't cash my American check.


Hmm. Traveler's cheque?

[danceronice]

Try horseback riding. The response to "OMG HOW DO I MAKE THIS MY LIFE" posts from teens at COTH is usually "Go to college, get a good job, and someday you'll be able to pay for it. Because if you're not already winning Medal classes, tough luck on getting sponsors and paid to ride." And that's usually the people who ARE professional trainers (or were and had to stop because it's a nasty way to make a living--no vacations, demanding clients, no money...) And getting to be the kid in the medal class means you have parents with money or connections or ideally both, and the talent and drive to do something with it. Not a common combination but it's usually the money that's lacking.

It's not fair, but teaching and resources aren't free. Some things just cost more.

[dlgodud]

I paid them in cash, since they didn't have an international bank account and therefore couldn't cash my American check.



That's not actually true. They can cash American checks. It just takes some time to do it. About 1 month...

[Larinda McRaven]

If i may piggy back a question on here: So we have to pay the pro's to dance with us. At what point do you become their equal and you split the cost of things? Has anyone ever become their instructors partern at some point? And how was this topic approached of 'we are equal so you pay your half'.

then they wouldn't be your teacher, and you would turn pro, and start competing on the pro circuit. You will be traveling to NYC at 6 am in the morning to get to your coaching from 9-11, then be back at the studio to teach from 2-10. And you no longer get the prime spot for "lessons" on their schedule because you will be practicing at 1030pm-1230am after the studio is closed.

[Larinda McRaven]

From the pros I have talked to, up until they retire from competition, they spend everything it takes to place as high as possible. In principle, their highest placing when they retire has an impact on the fees they can command for coaching and shows after retirement.
this
My bank account was a constant turnover when I was competing. I never had anything left over at the end of the month. And I honestly mean NOTHING. Everything I made went immediately to pay for more coaching and travel. The pay off is... now... I have a full schedule to teach and lots of opportunity to coach and judge. It is similar to putting in the time and money to get a masters or eventually a doctorate degree. You live like a pauper while you are studying in exchange for the job that you will have later.

[Larinda McRaven]

Aside from that, the best I've seen is instances where the pro of a pro-am couple might not charge for his time when the couple is taking lessons from another coach. But I'm guessing even that, is rare.

I had a student tell me I should not charge him for my time with a Rhythm coach but that also I should also be putting in half of the cost... just because I am over-qualified to teach smooth he felt I was unqualified to teach rhythm. Needless to say he was off my schedule after the very next competition.

[fascination]

see i fear that it wont take me to terribly long to catch up to most of the instructors where i am at. Although i like most of the instructors i will NOT pay for an equal. I pay to improve and learn more and more and more, not to have an equal dance with me. If it is an equal i expect it to be almost like a social situation where we thank each other for the dance (time) and move on.

Is it common for people to travel about 2 hours out of their area for instruction? I believe the nearest place outside of my area is 2 hours.that is how far I travel...and I don't feel that I currently have access to an alternative that would be on par with the instruction I currently get anywhere inside those two hours...but my goals are rather specific and my area is not terribly dense in terms of high level instruction...there are worse areas but it certainly isn't New York or California

[dlgodud]

I had a student tell me I should not charge him for my time with a Rhythm coach but that also I should also be putting in half of the cost...

I feel like I am a very good student now. lol. Seriously, I never asked my teachers for discounts or try to negotiate any prices. But, how come all my teachers have given me so much trouble?? lol. Am I being too nice??:rolleyes:

[DL]

this
My bank account was a constant turnover when I was competing. I never had anything left over at the end of the month. And I honestly mean NOTHING. Everything I made went immediately to pay for more coaching and travel. The pay off is... now... I have a full schedule to teach and lots of opportunity to coach and judge. It is similar to putting in the time and money to get a masters or eventually a doctorate degree. You live like a pauper while you are studying in exchange for the job that you will have later.

I suspect that though the costs may be comparable the assurance of success in the dance world is significantly less -- no?

[Kipling]

I suspect that though the costs may be comparable the assurance of success in the dance world is significantly less -- no?

IMHO your chances of success are reduced if you started to learn to dance after your fifth birthday.

[freeageless]

this
My bank account was a constant turnover when I was competing. I never had anything left over at the end of the month. And I honestly mean NOTHING. Everything I made went immediately to pay for more coaching and travel. The pay off is... now... I have a full schedule to teach and lots of opportunity to coach and judge. It is similar to putting in the time and money to get a masters or eventually a doctorate degree. You live like a pauper while you are studying in exchange for the job that you will have later.

Larinda, would it not perhaps be more accurate to state instead of you are "studying in exchange for the job that you will have later"; it, may be more accurate to state that you may have the job later? In other words isn't it true that very few ballet dancers become top ballet dancers; just like very few dancers reach the level that you have reached; no, matter how much they spend or how hard they work? Incidentally, I know a number of people who have master's and doctorate degrees who are working in bars and restaurants, because they cannot find jobs in their chosen fields. It seems to me that the journey itself may be the payoff-but isn't is possible-and maybe even probable-that they may never see the payoff that you have reached and have described?

[toothlesstiger]

I suspect that though the costs may be comparable the assurance of success in the dance world is significantly less -- no?

Depends on how you define success. If success is earning a living teaching what you love to do, it seems the odds are pretty good for dance, too. If you mean make a lot of money, then, yes, odds are pretty slim for dance. But, then, if you are in it for the money, there are certainly better choices, and then you can use the money from the "better choices" to fund your dancing. ;-)

And people make the same mistake with higher education. While a medical or law degree give you pretty good odds, the stories of PhDs driving cabs have a fair bit of truth to them.

Edited to Add:
this was in composition when freeageless made his post. I was going to say the same thing, when I had to qualify it, because I don't know many M.D.s or J.D.s tending bar or driving cabs. ;-)

[DL]

Depends on how you define success. If success is earning a living teaching what you love to do, it seems the odds are pretty good for dance, too. If you mean make a lot of money, then, yes, odds are pretty slim for dance. But, then, if you are in it for the money, there are certainly better choices, and then you can use the money from the "better choices" to fund your dancing. ;-)


Well, it just seems to me (wrongly?) that there aren't so many salaried positions in ballroom dance with salaries sufficient to recoup the cost of years of serious training towards professional status, while affording reasonable standard of living and good ability to prepare for retirement (which might be forced upon dancers sooner than for most). There's small business proprietorship, but that adds all the risks of small business proprietorship...

[itsthisgirl]

that is how far I travel...and I don't feel that I currently have access to an alternative that would be on par with the instruction I currently get anywhere inside those two hours...but my goals are rather specific and my area is not terribly dense in terms of high level instruction...there are worse areas but it certainly isn't New York or California
yes this is exactly what i mean...its not that i'm some amazing life stopping 'omg i must be like her' dancer. Its just that it seems the instruction here is not extremely high. I can learn the foundations here but to really push myself to the next level and tweak myself to 'perfection' I would have to go at least 2 hour to find a place that will challenge me within the next year or so. Guess I shall do research to find a place.

Why couldnt a top name pro move to this area? WHY WHY WHY?!?!?!?!?! and with that why can't i find a rich man to pay for that top pro!!!??? lol

[itsthisgirl]

Well, it just seems to me (wrongly?) that there aren't so many salaried positions in ballroom dance with salaries sufficient to recoup the cost of years of serious training towards professional status, while affording reasonable standard of living and good ability to prepare for retirement (which might be forced upon dancers sooner than for most). There's small business proprietorship, but that adds all the risks of small business proprietorship...

Not sure how everyone feels about DWTS, but just as an example, most of them dance but have also used their abilities to set themselves up financially through owning studios as well as other business ventures while they have a 'name' in the business. It may be wise to take on these business ventures while of age instead of once retired so that if it flops theres always other careers to go into so that you don't completely sink. I know the lady that owns the studio i attend did something similar. She used her 'name' (although not known but with her having accomplished what she did in the past) to start her studio and has managed to set it up to where now she is retired but still running the studio and it doesnt require much effort on her part at all. She teaches the students she wants to teach (the money in the area) and enjoys life.

I am a newbie to this but I do know that it takes time and effort and money as with other dance forms. Yes you may never be the prima ballerina but that doesnt mean you can't start your own studio, be successful at it, and live off of that once you have the training and prove your abilities.

[Benjy]

Well, it just seems to me (wrongly?) that there aren't so many salaried positions in ballroom dance with salaries sufficient to recoup the cost of years of serious training towards professional status, while affording reasonable standard of living and good ability to prepare for retirement (which might be forced upon dancers sooner than for most). There's small business proprietorship, but that adds all the risks of small business proprietorship...

It depends on what you are willing to do. I have no exception titles to my name, but I make a decent living (for my age and situation) teaching kids. I can afford rent, food, transportation, and training, and I have time to practice 4-5 hours a day. Which in NYC, is not so little money. If my results continue improving, I can increase my fee gradually (and this is still dancing amateur); many increase their fee just for calling themselves professional.

[fascination]

yes this is exactly what i mean...its not that i'm some amazing life stopping 'omg i must be like her' dancer. Its just that it seems the instruction here is not extremely high. I can learn the foundations here but to really push myself to the next level and tweak myself to 'perfection' I would have to go at least 2 hour to find a place that will challenge me within the next year or so. Guess I shall do research to find a place.

Why couldnt a top name pro move to this area? WHY WHY WHY?!?!?!?!?! and with that why can't i find a rich man to pay for that top pro!!!??? lol
a) I grew my own rich man :) ...ie.married him when he was an unemployed engineer with 30 dollars to his name, not much assertiveness and an average GPA..due to a bit too much socializing during undergrad (gotta have an eye for that sort of thing :), and be willing to suffer through grad schools...)

b) there are advantages to having to travel to your lesson...it teaches you to be very efficient in your lessons and focused...and you will want to think hard about doing it sooner than later lest you ingrain bad habits from less skilled intruction prior to that

[Standarddancer]

For costumes? Used will save you a little ($2k instead of $3k) but the big thing is, buy quality. Don't blow money on supertrendy stuff that'll look dated in six months, and don't try to be cheap (if it says "Korean" rhinestones, pass, you'll look cheap.) It's like buying any other clothes, one expensive but classic piece goes farther. An unstoned dress is better than one that's stoned with cheap materials. You can learn to stone yourself (and people will pay you for it! It's tedious, but not that difficult to do.)



This is so well-said, yes pass all the cheap looking dresses; cheap or low quality means little or no re-sell value.

[Standarddancer]

then they wouldn't be your teacher, and you would turn pro, and start competing on the pro circuit. You will be traveling to NYC at 6 am in the morning to get to your coaching from 9-11, then be back at the studio to teach from 2-10. And you no longer get the prime spot for "lessons" on their schedule because you will be practicing at 1030pm-1230am after the studio is closed.

Or travel to Boston when English coaches were invited there, arrive 7am for 9am coaching lessons, paying $250 for 45 minutes, try save money hard for at least couples of lessons, then drive back to NY studio teach/practice in the afternoon. It’s amazing how some people over-estimate their dancing ability, keep thinking they are so good almost equal to their teachers, thus teacher should be doing pro-am for free or at deep discount, even split cost with pro-am student when visiting coaches coming, etc. You’re so right Larinda, the only time a student should even think of not paying the teacher is to be capable of competing in the pro circuit, at the same level as their teacher.

[etp777]

I didn't see an answer as to when pros can start getting sponsored. I've seen (and sponsored), dancers soon after strating. This tends to be more prevalent in a studio that supports it (I know of one studio who's owners get all their competitive pro couples sponsored by various shoe and costume companies due to the owners own connections), but can happen on a smaller scale with anything. We sponsored costumes for my old pro and her partner for a while, and another couple at the studio was sponsored by a friend of theirs who owned a costume company. As in any other business, it's often just who you konw

[dlgodud]

b) there are advantages to having to travel to your lesson...it teaches you to be very efficient in your lessons and focused...and you will want to think hard about doing it sooner than later lest you ingrain bad habits from less skilled intruction prior to that

I think about this too. lol... I live in New York, but I want to travel to somewhere to have lessons. Do I sound like crazy?? Seriously... Fas...how many days do you take lessons?

[dlgodud]

I didn't see an answer as to when pros can start getting sponsored.

There is an answer, a kind. When they became a highly ranked pro. About those low ranked pros, it could be different from case to case.

[fascination]

I think about this too. lol... I live in New York, but I want to travel to somewhere to have lessons. Do I sound like crazy?? Seriously... Fas...how many days do you take lessons?
only two...but I take several back to back...and I have a practice floor in my home...occasionally, if I am prepping for something major, I will add a third day

[Jananananana]

I need some update. lol:p

Actually, that amount is wayyy wayy higher. In 2006, M&Y were already charging $7000 for a show - before M retired and Y became R&Y. I tried to get Louis for a show and it was $10,000 in 2006. I wouldn't be surprised if a top couple for a show was easily charging $8-9k and around $12-15k for those who were on shows like DWTS.


Although, even with amounts like that - it's very hard to make a living.

[sigurd]

If you want it bad enough, you find a way to make it happen and take your shot. And we should be clear, persistence, determination, sacrifice, ingenuity, and flexibility may get you a shot, it doesn't mean you will succeed. But, after all, isn't it like that for anything worthwhile?

Tt, somehow I just like this quote. Thanks for posting it.

[toothlesstiger]

Thanks. :-)

[freeageless]

Well, it may be sad, but that's the way it goes. If I have a passion for an activity that is expensive, I've got to find a way to pay or barter for, or make, what I need to participate.

If you want it bad enough, you find a way to make it happen and take your shot. And we should be clear, persistence, determination, sacrifice, ingenuity, and flexibility may get you a shot, it doesn't mean you will succeed. But, after all, isn't it like that for anything worthwhile?

TT, I also agree with what you said. Also, maybe the intrinstic worth comes from the experiences itself which dancing involves. The learning of ones strengths and weaknesses and in the attempt(s) to overcome those limitation(s). For example, I just completed a beginning group class in the Mambo. In last nights class the instructor taught the open break with underarm turn coming from the crossbody lead. I had already practiced them extensively in both private lessons and from the DVD both steps, and thought I knew them very well.

During the class I guess I had an anxiety attack, because all of a sudden I could not remember any of the steps. I kept counting to myself 1, 2, 3 rather that 2,3, 4-1. It was a disaster. After the class, I remembered exactly how to do the steps. I did sign up for another 10 private lessons-for once a week. Today, I had my yearly physical exam, and I mentioned it to my internist-who is very good. He gave me a perscription for a few zanax bills. He said, I am only going to give you a few pills-12 to start off at the minimun dosage possible. Take one about 15 minutes before the class starts. See if that helps-and let me know. He said it sounds like you are having either panic attacks or anxiety problems during the class. This should help. I was wondering if other people had had these types of problems, and how they coped. I hope I am not too far off the OP's original subject. If I am it is fine, if the moderator puts this in a new thread or a different thread. :(

[itsthisgirl]

TT, I also agree with what you said. Also, maybe the intrinstic worth comes from the experiences itself which dancing involves. The learning of ones strengths and weaknesses and in the attempt(s) to overcome those limitation(s). For example, I just completed a beginning group class in the Mambo. In last nights class the instructor taught the open break with underarm turn coming from the crossbody lead. I had already practiced them extensively in both private lessons and from the DVD both steps, and thought I knew them very well.

During the class I guess I had an anxiety attack, because all of a sudden I could not remember any of the steps. I kept counting to myself 1, 2, 3 rather that 2,3, 4-1. It was a disaster. After the class, I remembered exactly how to do the steps. I did sign up for another 10 private lessons-for once a week. Today, I had my yearly physical exam, and I mentioned it to my internist-who is very good. He gave me a perscription for a few zanax bills. He said, I am only going to give you a few pills-12 to start off at the minimun dosage possible. Take one about 15 minutes before the class starts. See if that helps-and let me know. He said it sounds like you are having either panic attacks or anxiety problems during the class. This should help. I was wondering if other people had had these types of problems, and how they coped. I hope I am not too far off the OP's original subject. :(

Free, do you feel comfortable with your instructor? I find that when i dance with certain ones for some reason i'm not a comfortable as i am with others. Some of them, not to sounds weird but i sort of in a way melt into their hold and it feels VERY comfortable almost like sitting on a couch, and then theres others that for some reason make me stiff as a board and i feel as if i go stupid and mind and body and reasoning dont connect. Talk to a few instructors around there and build a 'friendly' professional relationship with them and see who you feel most at ease with. Another thing to do is stretch and listen to some of your favorite music before you hit the floor with the instructor, it puts the body and mind at ease. Overall i find that althought theres thinking involved, just RELAX into it, you WILL mess up (see my thread most embarassing moment) and learn to laugh at your mistakes. My instructor literally stopped took a few steps back and LAUGHED with me yesterday because it was one of those days. I'm against taking meds for anxiety...those are only for extremely debilitating cases. If you must take meds, take with caution, but i would let that be my last resort.

[freeageless]

Free, do you feel comfortable with your instructor? I find that when i dance with certain ones for some reason i'm not a comfortable as i am with others. Some of them, not to sounds weird but i sort of in a way melt into their hold and it feels VERY comfortable almost like sitting on a couch, and then theres others that for some reason make me stiff as a board and i feel as if i go stupid and mind and body and reasoning dont connect. Talk to a few instructors around there and build a 'friendly' professional relationship with them and see who you feel most at ease with. Another thing to do is stretch and listen to some of your favorite music before you hit the floor with the instructor, it puts the body and mind at ease. Overall i find that althought theres thinking involved, just RELAX into it, you WILL mess up (see my thread most embarassing moment) and learn to laugh at your mistakes. My instructor literally stopped took a few steps back and LAUGHED with me yesterday because it was one of those days. I'm against taking meds for anxiety...those are only for extremely debilitating cases. If you must take meds, take with caution, but i would let that be my last resort.

Itsthisgirl, thank you for your response. I was not dancing with the instructor. I was dancing with the female students in the class. That really made it embarassing. However, fortunately for me I suppose, there are about 3 or 4 more women in this class than men. Therefore, they probably don't have any choice other than to dance with me again. I should also add, that when this class started the class was even. I guess that those 3 or 4 men gave up and fell by the wayside.

[mochahontas]

I know I might have to just ask this on the Salsa board instead, but what about salsa dancers? Are any of them really making a living? If you get to the top (like Liz Lira or Anya Katsevman), what can you expect?

[toothlesstiger]

When I was living in the SF Bay area, I knew of a few Salsa dancers who made their whole living from it, but it certainly was not an extravagant living, and most of the teachers I knew made their primary living from a day job.

[dlgodud]

I know I might have to just ask this on the Salsa board instead, but what about salsa dancers? Are any of them really making a living? If you get to the top (like Liz Lira or Anya Katsevman), what can you expect?

Most of them make their living by teaching and performing. The same as ballroom dancers. But, one of them you mentioned told me that mostly they do a lot of shows and performance.

[BreAna]

well, when I first started dancing I was 14 and it was through a ballroom club at my high school. The instructor was from a local studio but my parents refused to pay to let me take lessons. The studio ended up making a deal with me that I could clean the facility in exchange for group lessons. A year later, I was officially employed. The studio has been very generous to me in other ways too, offering other discounts, etc. but I think that was mainly due to my age. Without the opportunities my instructors gave me, I wouldn't be nearly as devoted to ballroom as I am now (I believe that was the point of giving me so many opportunities. Dance has really changed my life and who I am as a person).

Speaking of which, in my opinion, hard work DOES pay off. Perhaps I only maintain that mindset because I am "young and naive" though. I'm going to college so I have a degree to fall back on, but teaching ballroom and competing is what I really want to do with my life. I don't think anyone goes into ballroom for the money, you dance because you love it and can't live without it. I realize that it's expensive, but someday I'll get to use what I learn to teach to others, compete, and give some other teenager a chance to realize her potential.

I'm going to be a college freshman this year, so the expenses of college are going to be difficult. I'm probably going to do college comps because they're cheaper (I'm hoping to find an Am/Am partner). Another bonus is that I have some connections in the city I'm going to, so I've already made a few deals to work at, get free practice time, and free lyrical lessons (can't hurt to learn to be more expressive!) at a studio. Another thing, I was in a car accident (not at fault) and my foot was broken. I couldn't dance for several months, and am in the middle of a lawsuit right now. I'm putting all the money I get from it into my dance-lesson-fund.

[sigurd]

I applaud to those who follow their passion regardless on how harsh the conditional maybe. Personally, I do not have the courage for it. I want something like a safety net.

For most of the dance teachers I know of, or took classes from, dance teaching is not their only source of income. Of course, with exception for those who own a dance studio. True that if you make it to the top, you can make money from doing shows and get a lot of student to try to balance your cheque book. But whatif you are not UK open champion, but semi finalist, or quarter finalist? The money is less from doing shows and teaching and they need other sources (like office work) to survive.

In another case, a friend of mine was studying the teaching exam from ISTD. In her area, it is not easy to find another am who wants to be trained to pro, at the same level, who can practice together. So she spent a lot of money in lessons. She has not finished her exam and not qualified to teach yet, so she has almost no income in teaching (almost, because apparently she can assist in teaching if anyone hire her, but the income is low). She told me that she did this for the love of dancing, whether or not this makes money is not her concern.

However, I have heard from somebody in Asia, there are people (mainly men) who train to be a teacher in ballroom dancing, so that they can make a lot of money to be hire dby ladies to dance with. I am not sure how do they deal with the start up cost of tuition, and if they manage to balance their books at the end.

Also, I have read from this forum that some Franchises train new dancer to be dance teachers. I wonder how is their situations.

[toothlesstiger]

Some with experience could probably speak to it better than me, but the franchise teachers I know are not quite making a living wage. They usually have some other means of support in addition to the teaching, such as their parents, or a spouse with a more lucrative job.

[scotttocs]

Well, it just seems to me (wrongly?) that there aren't so many salaried positions in ballroom dance with salaries sufficient to recoup the cost of years of serious training towards professional status, while affording reasonable standard of living and good ability to prepare for retirement (which might be forced upon dancers sooner than for most). There's small business proprietorship, but that adds all the risks of small business proprietorship...

Salary? Probably not, but salary is not necessarily the requirement.

17 years ago I made a choice that I wasn't going to do a non-salaried job path, because I wanted more predictability, and less ups and downs. That had nothing to do with dance, I decided I wasn't going into Sales as a career.

You can make a living at all sorts of levels, by finding your niche, and comfort zone. The top professionals in any field can live a lot larger than the majority...

And a "Reasonable" standard of living has a huge amount to do with how you define it, and what your tradeoffs are. In general dance professionals, especially those with a competitive background have different opinions than people who have always worked 9-5 on a salary.

[fascination]

I think it pretty simply amounts to how much you work at it...my pro lives well...and he and his wife have earned it and are still frugal in many ways

[DL]

Salary? Probably not, but salary is not necessarily the requirement.


My point was just that full-time employment comes (generally) with more security and legal protections than self employment.

It was pointed out that the expense associated with becoming a good professional dancer is in line with the expense associated with acquiring post-graduate academic degrees. In both cases, opportunity to earn income comes subsequent to completion of training.

My point was that one still seems (AFAICT) to assume more risk on the dance side. I should add that I respect the dedication as well as the self-determination of those who perceive this and pursue it regardless.

[fascination]

My point was just that full-time employment comes (generally) with more security and legal protections than self employment.

It was pointed out that the expense associated with becoming a good professional dancer is in line with the expense associated with acquiring post-graduate academic degrees. In both cases, opportunity to earn income comes subsequent to completion of training.

My point was that one still seems (AFAICT) to assume more risk on the dance side. I should add that I respect the dedication as well as the self-determination of those who perceive this and pursue it regardless.absolutely..

[toothlesstiger]

My point was that one still seems (AFAICT) to assume more risk on the dance side. I should add that I respect the dedication as well as the self-determination of those who perceive this and pursue it regardless.
Well, on the plus side, dancers are more likely to have a realistic perception of the risk, as compared to PhD candidates who likely as not have no idea what the demand out there is for a PhD in Philosophy, Anthropology, or Physics :headwall:

[j_alexandra]

Well, on the plus side, dancers are more likely to have a realistic perception of the risk, as compared to PhD candidates who likely as not have no idea what the demand out there is for a PhD in Philosophy, Anthropology, or Physics :headwall:

Or English. Ask me how I know. :mad:

FWIS, I've been self employed for around 20 years, and while I'll never get rich with what I do, the bills are paid.

[Kipling]

Or English. Ask me how I know. :mad:



You didn't. Please tell me you didn't go for a PhD in English!

[Terpsichorean Clod]

Merged threads :)

Other threads:
Ballroom Sponsorship (http://danceforums.com/showthread.php?t=1714)
What have you done to dance? (http://danceforums.com/showthread.php?t=19600)
For the ladies: To what lengths would you go to, to save money? (http://danceforums.com/showthread.php?t=10617) (especially Katarzyna's posts on this thread)

[pygmalion]

I kinda liked the more descriptive title, though. :cool: When I saw the rude question title, I immediately thought about those every-so-often, teenage boy *AHEM* man questions. Seriously.

How do people afford this fits better, in my mind. *shrug*

[quixotedlm]

Wondering aloud here : What's the median age of entry for competitive dancers? Is it around mid-20's to 30? If so, that would suggest that people don't generally puzzle out how to afford it after starting to dance - they likely figure out career/income etc first, then go shopping for hobbies and new passions and stumble upon dance.

[ViviDancer]

Hmm well I'm currently 19 and take part in competitions as frequently as possible (: I currently only do private classes at the moment, roughly two-three times a week. But fortunately, my partner who is also my aunt pays for all the lessons. I have many peers who wish to pursue further but are unable to due to financial constraints. So I'd consider myself very lucky.

However, other than privates, the group classes here are rather cheap and very very cheap in my school ($5 a month, but of course, a huge group that teaches basic steps can only get you so far).

[Terpsichorean Clod]

Wondering aloud here : What's the median age of entry for competitive dancers?
Hard to say, I think, since there are at least three different populations: youth, collegiate, and um...post-collegiate/post-kids? It would probably be easier to come up with a median for each of those three.

[Terpsichorean Clod]

But fortunately, my partner who is also my aunt pays for all the lessons.
Nice! ;) I know of at least one boy (teen, I think) who partners his mother. I assume they're not splitting the dance costs equally. :razz:

[Jananananana]

I'm one of the cheapest people I know in terms of dance. On average, when I compete (am-am comps) at about a comp a month, I'd spend about $150-$200 a month.

In terms of dance, that's like NOTHING especially when you could travel, private lessons, etc. In terms of living expenses, etc. it's a lot of money.

When we were competing (when our partnership was working out...about a year ago or even more), we had careful plans laid to to balance dance/work/life. We worked and studied at a university.
I teach a class once a week at the gym which gives me free gym access. So, all my yoga classes, gym time, etc. is free. The gym also had dance studios which my partner and I could use whenever they were free.
We still needed lessons though: We would take technique lessons once a month on top of a group class that we went to. This cut down our costs a ton. My partner choreographed our routines and then we usually had them tweaked. Were they perfect? No, but they were doable and they saved us money that we didn't have so that we could focus elsewhere.
Costumes: I make my own as do a lot of other DF members :-) Once you make your first and second one, it gets easier. Learning to sew isn't difficult and stoning isn't that hard either. All you need is a sewing machine, some inspiration, a little instruction, and some patience.
Travel: Going with college teams is great. By giving your time to help with a team, the team can help pay travel expenses, etc.
Your future: this one is a toughie - remember that with all the expenses that you currently have, your future needs to be financed as well. Make sure that you have a plan for the future - retirement, emergencies, etc. The general rule of thumb is to have 3-6mo. of $$ saved up as a rainy day fund. Health insurance is unfortunately an investment where you want a negative return. Putting a little money aside for retirement never hurts either. Also, as it was mentioned, it is very possible to work a 9-5 and dance professionally. Sometimes, if you get overwhelmed, it's ok to step back and re-evaluate what you're doing. Like right now, I have a powerpoint to do and I need to get back to it. :-)

[dlgodud]

On average, when I compete (am-am comps) at about a comp a month, I'd spend about $150-$200 a month.



That's like less than what I spend in a week into dancing. lol
Now I see why I don't have money. lol

[nucat78]

Wondering aloud here : What's the median age of entry for competitive dancers? Is it around mid-20's to 30? If so, that would suggest that people don't generally puzzle out how to afford it after starting to dance - they likely figure out career/income etc first, then go shopping for hobbies and new passions and stumble upon dance.

I've observed pretty much a bimodal amateur distribution - younger dancers who have been into dance from the git-go, so to speak, and older comps whose kids are grown and / or have their first divorce out of the way and are reinventing themselves.

Harder to find time (and $$$) when one is building one's career, buying the first house, raising young kids.

YMMV.

[Kipling]

I've observed pretty much a bimodal amateur distribution - younger dancers who have been into dance from the git-go, so to speak, and older comps whose kids are grown and / or have their first divorce out of the way and are reinventing themselves.

YMMV.

So are they succesful at reinventing themselves? I really want to know. I want to reinvent myself one more time! I will almost go as far as to say that is what life is all about, I've done it so often.

I hope that it is not true that "wherever you go, there you are." You can climb Mt Everest but if you are a jerk you will just be a jerk that happens to be on top of Mt Everest.

[nucat78]

I've seen some ppl change markedly post-kids / post-divorce. Basic personalities, not so much, but activities, sociability, life outlook, and so on.

[Shoe Girl]

I'm one of the cheapest people I know in terms of dance. On average, when I compete (am-am comps) at about a comp a month, I'd spend about $150-$200 a month.

In terms of dance, that's like NOTHING especially when you could travel, private lessons, etc. In terms of living expenses, etc. it's a lot of money.



Wow I WISH this is what it cost me to do a dance comp! I save, save, save for my events. I have a good job. I sell dance shoes on the side for extra cash. I rent out my old dance dresses through Encore Ballroom Couture. I get everyone I can on board to go to a dance comp so it costs all of us less in the long run.

I have a dance friend who pet sits as well as house sits. She too has a good job. She is very careful with her money.

I take about 2 to 3 privates a week. I get to do 1 or 2 comps a year.

My friend takes 1 or two a week, but she has an hour per direction drive time so some days she just doubles up on her Saturday lesson. She too only does 1 or 2 comps a year.

The thing is .... if this is something a person wants to do, they find a way to afford it. Buy your costumes unstoned and do the work yourself. Add more stones as you get a bit more cash. Cut out Starbucks! ;) etc.

[hereKittyKitty]

I don't do haircuts- I cut my own hair as well as my hubby's. We don't go to restaurants, we eat at home mostly from scratch. We mostly practice and take lessons sparingly when needed. Also, we moved to an area where there are lots of competitions with lots of participation. Luckily we have our own business. Whereas before we had to spend a lot of money on flying in coaches and flying to competitions.

[dancerdol]

You can work for a ballroom dress designer and earn 10% of dress sales to help pay for your lessons, coaching, and comps. As a Stylist you also can be allowed to wear one of the dresses (just like a sponsored pro) at a competition. In addition, if you are the secondary Stylist for a comp you can also dance one day with your pro and have some of your travel expenses paid by the company. Designers hire reps to work amateur comps, trunk shows and dance parties at studios and collegiate events. You can also be hired to work only in your city and not travel to comps. Send me a pm and I would be happy to tell you more about the industry.