Dancing out of syllabus at comps

[njdancegirl]

There have been a few side discussions on the recent comp threads (Manhattan, North American Dancesport) re: an abundance of syllabus competitors dancing out of syllabus. Lately I've heard MC announce numerous times that events are being invigilated and to stay within the step list of the syllabus. Its been mentioned that many top pros are the biggest offenders. And also, it appears that students are finally getting knocked down in their placements because of it.

What have been your recent observations? Thoughts on the topic? Does it matter - is it really about technique and not steps or do you think the steps matter? In pro/am, should a student speak up...is it just as much their responsibility to follow the rules as the pro's? In the end it is their dancing (and their money). (Topic is relevant to am/am dancers as well as I've seen it many times at college comps and USA Dance events).

[DanceMentor]

I think sometimes this is a lack of knowledge on the part of the pro. Surely, if they know their material well enough, they can look good enough doing the figures that are allowed at the level they are supposed to be competing. I believe issues are more common in Bronze than anywhere else.

[latingal]

It's interesting to me that some of the pros don't take the time to make sure that they know the syllabus patterns that are allowed at each level when putting together their student's routines. However, it should only take being called on for being out of the syllabus on the floor once (with a corresponding placement) for a pro to ensure he has checked his student's routines.

An interesting thought then, could an increase in out of syllabus announcements at larger comps then be related to an increase in "new" pros out on the pro-am dance floor?

[etp777]

Heh, pro was about to get dinged for this at Crystal Ball. Judges were grumbling, and MC called him out on it. Turns out, he had gotten a ubnch of heats input in system wrong, was supposed to be open, not closed. Some quick corrections were probably in order, but everyone got a laugh out of it. :)

[mamboqueen]

An interesting thought then, could an increase in out of syllabus announcements at larger comps then be related to an increase in "new" pros out on the pro-am dance floor?

I don't get the implication here.....

[njdancegirl]

An interesting thought then, could an increase in out of syllabus announcements at larger comps then be related to an increase in "new" pros out on the pro-am dance floor?

Might be in some instances, but in others these are well-known dancers, some of the country's top competitors, who are the biggest offenders.

And a quick look online or in their manuals will turn up any syllabus they want...not sure it is excusable. As a competitor (and a very anal person), I also look up step list for my level to see what I can/can't be doing so that I am as much responsible for what I am dancing as pro is.

[njdancegirl]

I don't get the implication here.....

New pros would either not be aware of the syllabus or not aware of the repercussions of dancing out of it, but they are the "professional" - it is their job to know (IMHO).

[njdancegirl]

I believe issues are more common in Bronze than anywhere else.

Yes, saw mostly in Bronze (the most restrictive so makes sense), but a little in Silver as well.

[mamboqueen]

New pros would either not be aware of the syllabus or not aware of the repercussions of dancing out of it, but they are the "professional" - it is their job to know (IMHO).

ahhh....guess 30 minutes wasn't enough of a nap for me ;)

Yeah, I agree. They should know the rule if they're a pro.

[wooh]

I think it being allowed a few times has probably led to it flourishing. SRC last year, a couple won bronze that was CLEARLY dancing silver. So people see things like that, and go with it and do it themselves. Might also have a bit to do with pros mixing up which am they're dancing with.:)

[NielsenE]

Its a problem in both circuits I've danced in (Pro-Am and Am-Am). I think its slightly more widespread in am-am/collegiate than in the pro-am I've seen; but typically more outrageous in Pro-Am when it occurs. -- Normally in the collegiate arena I'll see a couple with one-two figures from the next level up. (Excepting Latin, which seems to have the same problem as pro-am of even Open material ending up in Bronze)

I see the blame attaching to three groups of people
Coaches of Amateur Couples/Pro-Am Teachers -- instructors/routine choreographers really should know the rules and the syllabus. I don't care if you come from a tradition that doesn't do things this way, you need to respect the rules at an event you choose to enter.

MCs/Invigilators/Competition organizers -- all too often competitions overlook the need for having an invigilator, and all-too often they settle for the non-confrontational "Please stay in syllabus everyone" announcements without ever actually penalizing a couple or talking to the offender(s) directly. Often the offenders are clueless enough not to realize they are who the MC is talking too.... Or they've learned that while they are out of syllabus, nothing happens as a result.

Competitors -- Ultimately we each need to be willing to take responsibility for our own dancing. If you want to dance open material, enter open. If you don't want to have to worry about syllabus restrictions, dance open. I personally don't have much sympathy for people chose to say "but I'm paying XXXX to my coach, he should know about this not me", but if you have to take that approach I'd want to have something about "all my routines will be within the syllabus for the entered events" written into a contract with my teacher/coach. (Yes, IMO a true professional coach/instructor would be doing this anyways, without it being called out separately. )

[NielsenE]

Some contributing factors to I think the more outrageous excesses seen in Pro-Am...

a) The higher "standard" of mastery expected before moving on from Bronze to Silver. I see a lot of competitors who stay in Bronze until their technique/expression/artistry/etc is basically ready for Open.

b) The extreme drop off in competition entries above Bronze -- as a result of a) at a lot of events while bronze might be decently larger, silver and gold languish in entries and open is again semi-decent. As a result people want to stay in bronze.

c) furthermore (though this seems to be disappearing, aside from the chain circuit I compete in :( ) scholarships often aren't offered outside from the large Bronze and Open events.

So there's extreme reluctance it seems to moving from Bronze to Silver, but people get bored and want to do other steps...

b and c are problems IMO. a is just a different approach.

[njdancegirl]

Excellent points and totally agree, NeilsenE.

[mamboqueen]

Silver, imo, hasn't been small. I've had quarters in some scholarship events. I think people skip gold because there are rarely scholarships offered. So, I think a lot of people actually stay in silver longer than bronze, in my experience, because the leap to open is quite a step.

[jivechica]

Not sure if this is appropriate for this thread but I haven't been dancing very long and although I dance open am/am or novice and pre novice, I've been in competitions where people who dance at a championship level enter my events (maybe they want to warm up? :) ). One competition I even looked up the winner on dancesportinfo and saw that the guy has won numerous open ameatur events and did pre novice at this comp... I'm assuming there is nothing that can be done???

[njdancegirl]

Think a lot depends on age too. I am an age A1 dancer in NDCA (up to 35 usually) and we typically have very small events, many times uncontested in any level. On the flip side, I had some of the largest events in USA Dance (Adult).

[njdancegirl]

Not sure if this is appropriate for this thread but I haven't been dancing very long and although I dance open am/am or novice and pre novice, I've been in competitions where people who dance at a championship level enter my events (maybe they want to warm up? :) ). One competition I even looked up the winner on dancesportinfo and saw that the guy has won numerous open ameatur events and did pre novice at this comp... I'm assuming there is nothing that can be done???

Think this has more to do with the point system...if he hasn't pointed out, then no, nothing can be done. If he has, then this is a different set of rules being broken.

[cornutt]

Silver, imo, hasn't been small. I've had quarters in some scholarship events. I think people skip gold because there are rarely scholarships offered. So, I think a lot of people actually stay in silver longer than bronze, in my experience, because the leap to open is quite a step.

I don't know, NielsonE's observation lines up with what I've seen the past few years. I've actually had the experience of dancing nearly the same routine in bronze and silver in some Latin dances, and winning in silver while not placing in bronze. :confused:

One big problem I see on the pro-am circuit is that, before syllabus rules can really be enforced, there is going to have to be some agreement across the differnet comps on what syllabi are acceptable. Here's an example of the kinds of problems you can run into. My DW's instructor is reverting from DVIDA back to the FA syllabus for some silver smooth steps, because he hates the way the DVIDA book teaches the steps and he thinks the FA ones look better. The problem for an independent comp organizer is, if they want to invigliate that, the FA syllabus isn't available for them to check. Therfore, they have to let it go, without really knowing if the steps are truly in that level in FA or not. And they can't just ban the FA steps in general because there are way too many pros around who are trained in the FA system, and they don't want to exclude them from their comps -- bad business, that. Same goes for pros trained in AM. And then you have pros who have been teaching for decades and are trained in older systems.

Oh, and since I'm a male am, if we dance anything out of level, by definition it's my fault. :tongue:

[cornutt]

Not sure if this is appropriate for this thread but I haven't been dancing very long and although I dance open am/am or novice and pre novice, I've been in competitions where people who dance at a championship level enter my events (maybe they want to warm up? :) ). One competition I even looked up the winner on dancesportinfo and saw that the guy has won numerous open ameatur events and did pre novice at this comp... I'm assuming there is nothing that can be done???


Yeah, sandbaggers who want a cheap thrill. We've discussed that here before. The short answer is, complain loudly to the comp organizers, and let them know that in no uncertain terms, if they continue to allow that, you won't be back. Some organizers don't care, though. There are some comps in this area that my instructor refuses to go to because she's had that experience.

[etp777]

Cornutt, are there no invigilators there who know FA? I know same guy who invigilated AAC (closed fred astaire comp) last year also judged or invigilated or did something :) (he was up at table, didn't hear what he was doing), crystal Ball, Harvest moon and WIndy City, all open NDCA comps. I can't think that's unique to this area.

[jivechica]

Just sucks because it totally ruins the experience. This has happened 2 years in a row so this year I finally emailed the organizer but we'll see next year if the same couple returns.

Thanks for the advice though..maybe they will read this forum and remember me :)

[latingal]

jivechica - it does ruin the experience for others. And unfortunately it seems that much of it has been left to the ethics of the individual. By rights, as long as I dance the steps in the syllabus I could do bronze or silver. Would I do it? No. It's not fair to those coming up the ladder. I won't even do it in a different dance style that's related.

I do think a lot of the problems have cropped up because enforcement has been very lax. Try not to let it ruin your experience. I do what I can to point these things out, but I realize it is really something out of my control and try instead to concentrate on my dancing.

[Angel HI]

Neisen's posts #11/12 are very good, IMO. I was recently called out for dancing out of category, and I'm an adjudicator! Geez! They didn't penalize the student for it, though, as it was decided that the problem was too many available syllabi and not enough continuity between them. I am very much in favor of comps like Heritage and others have that dictate which steps/patterns one will dance in a particuar category. Problem solved.

[danceislove]

how do you find out what steps are allowed in each level? is it listed somewhere?

[cornutt]

how do you find out what steps are allowed in each level? is it listed somewhere?

In American style, it's a big problem. There are so many syllabi running around loose, and usually comps don't specify one. About the only rule you can count on is that you can't dance continuity style (passing your feet) in bronze waltz or foxtrot. In International, it's much more standardized.

[danceislove]

In American style, it's a big problem. There are so many syllabi running around loose, and usually comps don't specify one. About the only rule you can count on is that you can't dance continuity style (passing your feet) in bronze waltz or foxtrot. In International, it's much more standardized.

we're signed up for newcomer-novice rhythm and smooth. its our first am/am comp. how do you know what you can and can't do?

[Terpsichorean Clod]

If it's a USA Dance comp, "5.4.4 - For all categories with limitations of steps or material to be danced, the organizer shall publish an acceptable step list for those categories or shall publish the name of an accepted syllabus, which contains such a step list."

(http:// usadance.org/dancesport/forms-and-resources/rules-policies-and-bylaws/)

If it's an NDCA recognized comp, you can look in the appendix of the rule book for some guidelines. Legal figures are listed (box, closed twinkle) as are general restrictions ("No fallaway actions of any kind"). Not sure how much leeway organizers have, or whether it gets enforced anyway.

(http:// www .ndca.org/information/rules/rules_pdfs/Rulebook_Master.pdf)

[Laura]

we're signed up for newcomer-novice rhythm and smooth. its our first am/am comp. how do you know what you can and can't do?
You need to start out by reading the rules for the competition you have entered, and also for the sanctioning body that governs that competition. Different competitions and different sanctioning bodies have different rules.

For instance, in USA Dance "Novice" is the lowest of the "Open" categories, which means that there are no syllabus restrictions at all and you can dance whatever steps you want.

On the other hand, I have also seen some NDCA competitions with events called things like "Novice Bronze" which are syllabus-restricted.

I've never heard of the the "Newcomer-Novice" level, so I don't know what the rules would be for that one -- competitions often make up their own levels with their own rules, which is why I suggested you read the rules for the competition you are attending. They should be on the competition's web site, or included in the packet of information sent out by the competition organizers.

[samina]

Silver, imo, hasn't been small. I've had quarters in some scholarship events. I think people skip gold because there are rarely scholarships offered. So, I think a lot of people actually stay in silver longer than bronze, in my experience, because the leap to open is quite a step.

My take on it as well, at least from the pro-am perspective.

[danceislove]

For instance, in USA Dance "Novice" is the lowest of the "Open" categories, which means that there are no syllabus restrictions at all and you can dance whatever steps you want.

On the other hand, I have also seen some NDCA competitions with events called things like "Novice Bronze" which are syllabus-restricted.

I've never heard of the the "Newcomer-Novice" level, so I don't know what the rules would be for that one -- competitions often make up their own levels with their own rules, which is why I suggested you read the rules for the competition you are attending. They should be on the competition's web site, or included in the packet of information sent out by the competition organizers.

Sorry it is a NDCA event. This is what they call my levels:
Amateur Adult Newcomer, Amateur Adult Bronze, Amateur Adult Novice
I guess I'll read the ndca rulebook and see what I can find there because I don't see any rules on the comp site...but i could be missing it?

[Laura]

Sorry it is a NDCA event. This is what they call my levels:
Amateur Adult Newcomer, Amateur Adult Bronze, Amateur Adult Novice
Newcomer may or may not have syllabus restrictions. Bronze definitely is restricted to Bronze-level steps. Novice may or may not be restricted (I'm guessing it's not restricted since the comp also offers a Bronze event).

The NDCA web site used to have a list of syllabus steps for each level, I haven't looked there in a while so I don't know if it's still there.

You could tell us which comp it is and we could help you find the rules. Pretty much every single NDCA comp has a web site. In NDCA, "any published syllabus" is acceptable, so you can also look at DVIDA, Arthur Murray, Fred Astaire, Terpsichore Society, US-ISTD, ISTD, and ITDA. If you're doing Smooth and Rhythm it's a lot less clear than if you're doing Standard and Latin, simply because there is a plethora of syllabi for the American styles.

It often says on the entry form if there are any restrictions.

Another variant is that, on the West Coast, Novice is *always* open syllabus which means anything at all is allowed. However, there are some comps in the interior and on the East Coast where "Novice" is restricted to certain syllabus steps.

[samina]

here's a thought -- i've never seen this be an issue in standard comps. just noticing now with my participation in latin events.

i mean, if someone leads an out-of-syllabus move in standard to handle impromptu floorcraft issues, who cares. but have never seen any egregious out-of-syllabus standard choreo on the floor.

with latin the other night everyone(and i mean everyone) had at least one move of silver in bronze. even us -- we kept our samba maypole when we stripped our silver choreo out cuz we pretty much ran out of time to rework that section. so even we were technically offenders, despite our mindfulness.

[latingal]

have never seen any egregious out-of-syllabus standard choreo on the floor.

I think latin has more variations in movement than standard (I would assume the possibilities of two people moving connected by one hand vs. connected by both arms and the side of the body is greater) and I would think the connecting pieces of movement can be more problematic in classifying them as in syllabus or not.

we kept our samba maypole when we stripped our silver choreo out cuz we pretty much ran out of time to rework that section. so even we were technically offenders, despite our mindfulness.

The pot calling the kettle black? *grin*

[Laura]

but have never seen any egregious out-of-syllabus standard choreo on the floor.
I have! People dancing Throwaway Oversways in Silver...Gold patterns like various fallaways being danced in Silver. It definitely happens.

[dldbm]

here's a thought -- i've never seen this be an issue in standard comps. just noticing now with my participation in latin events.

i mean, if someone leads an out-of-syllabus move in standard to handle impromptu floorcraft issues, who cares. but have never seen any egregious out-of-syllabus standard choreo on the floor.

with latin the other night everyone(and i mean everyone) had at least one move of silver in bronze. even us -- we kept our samba maypole when we stripped our silver choreo out cuz we pretty much ran out of time to rework that section. so even we were technically offenders, despite our mindfulness.
xxxx

[njdancegirl]

here's a thought -- i've never seen this be an issue in standard comps. just noticing now with my participation in latin events.

I'm much more familiar with Latin and the syllabus than Standard...a simple variation on a Latin bronze step makes it a silver step...not sure if the same in Standard. Also, just by nature of Latin, think it is just much more noticable.

But it is one thing to keep one silver step in bronze - we've all offended, myself included with a swivel - and a whole other thing to be doing Open choreography in bronze or silver.

[NielsenE]

Yeah another thing that complicates Latin (compared to standard, and to a lesser extend both American styles) is that the Red Books are organized in way that often leads people astray. For most figures the "default" syllabuis version is given and designated as the appropriate level -- then a series of "Developments" are presented, most of which cause the figure to be a higher level. Though I've heard some coaches argueing that the higher level Developments are only for Medal Tests or teaching exams and that they don't actually change the level of the step for competition....

Then there is the question of arm styling/type of connection... The unofficial (I beleive), but highly repeated mantra within the FADS comps I've done is they don't care how you style the figure from the waist up -- creatively changing shape,connection/arms is more or less expected it seems ( though it can be pushed too far and you'll get a warning) as long as you keep the footwork and timing by the book. (for Rhythm/Smooth)

Of course that's at odds with the Latin Red Book so coaches who get used to that system might have more trouble with the more restrictive rules -- having no connection on sliding doors for instance changes it from gold to open. Changing from a normal dance position to the common left-left "spiraling" hold for samba rolls has the same effect, etc.

Finally, I don't think people should be as comfortable with having even a single, one-level removed figure in their routines. If you're out of syllabus, you're out of syllabus -- you can't expect an invigilator to watch your entire routine and say "well they were only out once" so its ok. If they see an infraction, they should give you the warning, if you repeat it (in the next round, or a different event of teh same level restriction) you should be disqualified.

[cornutt]

I've never heard of the the "Newcomer-Novice" level, so I don't know what the rules would be for that one -- competitions often make up their own levels with their own rules, which is why I suggested you read the rules for the competition you are attending.

Yeah, that bit confused me too. Lots of NDCA comps, and independent comps that go by NDCA rules, have "newcomer" classifications that are strictly limited to dancers who have been dancing for some short amount of time (usually less than a year), and generally only allow the first five or so steps in a bronze syllabus. "Novice", on the other hand, is an open category in USA Dance comps; NDCA comps don't generally use that term.

[cornutt]

But it is one thing to keep one silver step in bronze - we've all offended, myself included with a swivel - and a whole other thing to be doing Open choreography in bronze or silver.

Yep, I've been to some comps where everything above bronze was more or less open. I recall an independent comp some years ago where a couple danced intermediate silver American rumba with a routine in which they were never once in closed frame -- and they placed first.

[samina]

The pot calling the kettle black? *grin*

Clearly never say never, lol..

[samina]

Finally, I don't think people should be as comfortable with having even a single, one-level removed figure in their routines. If you're out of syllabus, you're out of syllabus -- you can't expect an invigilator to watch your entire routine and say "well they were only out once" so its ok. If they see an infraction, they should give you the warning, if you repeat it (in the next round, or a different event of teh same level restriction) you should be disqualified.
Yes, I agree completely. To my mind, it should be clear what is in syllabus and the choreo should respect that (invigilating self...). I like being out of the box, but not when it comes to fair-play rules. Our one little departure made me feel very uncomfortable. I justified it for one comp cuz I'm not an accomplished latin dancer as yet, so "it wouldn't matter and nobody would care".

[danceislove]

You could tell us which comp it is and we could help you find the rules.
http://www.seattlestarball.com/


It often says on the entry form if there are any restrictions.

It says "NDCA rules apply to all amateur events"

I just want to make sure we don't dance out of which ever levels we are in.

[Laura]

Sorry it is a NDCA event. This is what they call my levels:
Amateur Adult Newcomer, Amateur Adult Bronze, Amateur Adult Novice
I guess I'll read the ndca rulebook and see what I can find there because I don't see any rules on the comp site...but i could be missing it?
You said you were dancing Seattle Star Ball. I took a look at the web site and clicked on the link that said "Competitor." Right there is an explanation of the Novice levels, and also a link to PDFs of the entry forms. The Amateur entry form itself explains the different events. All the events you have entered are denoted to be closed syllabus only.

Appendix II of the NDCA rule book lists all the allowed steps for each syllabus level of American Style (although they are also supposed to accept "any published syllabus").

To make a long story short, the events you have entered are all closed syllabus. Based on what I see:

Novice will allow you to dance anything that is Bronze, Silver, and/or Gold. No out-of-syllabus steps are allowed for Novice, just for a separate category they've created called "Open Novice."
Newcomer might allow you to dance anything that is Bronze, Silver, and/or Gold but the wording is a little ambiguous so I'm not 100% sure. It would make sense to me if it were that way (based on the wording) but it would also make sense to me if it were restricted to Bronze only (a common restriction).
Bronze would mean you can dance anything on the Bronze Syllabus, but if you're going to be really picky about it one could reason that anything on the Bronze, Silver, and/or Gold Syllabus is allowed due to the slight ambiguity in the wording on the form.

If your teacher/coach doesn't know for sure what is allowed, then call the organizer and find out. If your routines are all Bronze anyway, then you have absolutely nothing to worry about and don't need to call the organizer.

[danceislove]

You said you were dancing Seattle Star Ball. I took a look at the web site and clicked on the link that said "Competitor." Right there is an explanation of the Novice levels, and also a link to PDFs of the entry forms. The Amateur entry form itself explains the different events. All the events you have entered are denoted to be closed syllabus only.

Appendix II of the NDCA rule book lists all the allowed steps for each syllabus level of American Style (although they are also supposed to accept "any published syllabus").

To make a long story short, the events you have entered are all closed syllabus. Based on what I see:

Novice will allow you to dance anything that is Bronze, Silver, and/or Gold. No out-of-syllabus steps are allowed for Novice, just for a separate category they've created called "Open Novice."
Newcomer might allow you to dance anything that is Bronze, Silver, and/or Gold but the wording is a little ambiguous so I'm not 100% sure. It would make sense to me if it were that way (based on the wording) but it would also make sense to me if it were restricted to Bronze only (a common restriction).
Bronze would mean you can dance anything on the Bronze Syllabus, but if you're going to be really picky about it one could reason that anything on the Bronze, Silver, and/or Gold Syllabus is allowed due to the slight ambiguity in the wording on the form.

If your teacher/coach doesn't know for sure what is allowed, then call the organizer and find out. If your routines are all Bronze anyway, then you have absolutely nothing to worry about and don't need to call the organizer.


I just decided to email the organizer and find out. On the pdf files it has contradicting info saying only newcomer is closed syllabus, so I give up :rolleyes: thanks for the help though! hopefully I'll get an email back sooner rather than later.

[Laura]

I rewrote my post so could you re-quote or delete my quote?

And I agree, at this point contacting the organizer is the best thing to do. What is obvious to them isn't necessarily obvious to someone reading the forms, especially if one part contradicts another.

[Stillharbor]

I agree with what others have said. If you see people dancing out of syllabus contact the organizers. I had the similar experience.

I went to my first competition and in quite a few of my categories there was a dancer that was clearly a silver level, dancing in a beginner bronze heat. It kind of discouraged me because I came in 2nd in every heat against her. I later found out that he didn't move up to the next levels in dance because competiting in the lower assured her of a win. Makes me wonder why I should advance when I could stay in the level I am and just learn higher levels to dance open. Of course, my "higher morals" won't let me do that to other beginners. Dang!:headwall:

[tanya_the_dancer]

I agree with what others have said. If you see people dancing out of syllabus contact the organizers. I had the similar experience.

I went to my first competition and in quite a few of my categories there was a dancer that was clearly a silver level, dancing in a beginner bronze heat. It kind of discouraged me because I came in 2nd in every heat against her. I later found out that he didn't move up to the next levels in dance because competiting in the lower assured her of a win. Makes me wonder why I should advance when I could stay in the level I am and just learn higher levels to dance open. Of course, my "higher morals" won't let me do that to other beginners. Dang!:headwall:

I don't think you can really do anything if a person does not do any patterns which are out of category, but instead they just do whatever is allowed with quality expected at a higher level.

[samina]

I agree with what others have said. If you see people dancing out of syllabus contact the organizers. I had the similar experience.

I went to my first competition and in quite a few of my categories there was a dancer that was clearly a silver level, dancing in a beginner bronze heat. It kind of discouraged me because I came in 2nd in every heat against her. I later found out that he didn't move up to the next levels in dance because competiting in the lower assured her of a win. Makes me wonder why I should advance when I could stay in the level I am and just learn higher levels to dance open. Of course, my "higher morals" won't let me do that to other beginners. Dang!:headwall:

i was recently in a bronze event that was won by a woman who, judging by her level of technique and artistry, was definitely not a bronze-level dancer. if she stayed within syllabus (i don't know, as i was dancing & did not see...) she's technically in bounds, although it felt "unfair".

my view tho is... i just have to get better so someone like that can't sandbag me out of a placement. :)

[Joe]

But what happens when you become good enough that you become the "sandbagger?" :D

[samina]

heh...

pro reported that three students approached him this past weekend about when i was giving up silver in standard. gave me an inkling that it's time to move on. but of course, he apparently told them that cuz i didn't win at manhattan i wasn't permitted to proceed, lol...

[Joe]

Three of his students, or three of your competition? :)

[samina]

Three of my competitors

[njdancegirl]

i was recently in a bronze event that was won by a woman who, judging by her level of technique and artistry, was definitely not a bronze-level dancer. if she stayed within syllabus (i don't know, as i was dancing & did not see...) she's technically in bounds, although it felt "unfair".

my view tho is... i just have to get better so someone like that can't sandbag me out of a placement. :)

Sam, Saw her dance...her technique, styling, etc was that easily of high silver, gold and beyond. However she did stay within the syllabus and she did not compete anything beyond bronze at all, so we can't say she was silver and used bronze to warm up. We discussed her at detail - could be a million reasons why...unfortunately none of us got a chance to ask her. And understand her Standard was just as good...and bronze as well.

[samina]

Sam, Saw her dance...her technique, styling, etc was that easily of high silver, gold and beyond. However she did stay within the syllabus and she did not compete anything beyond bronze at all.

am glad to hear. wouldn't begrudge her the entry if she obeyed the rules to win.

so we can't say she was silver and used bronze to warm up. We discussed her at detail - could be a million reasons why...unfortunately none of us got a chance to ask her. And understand her Standard was just as good...and bronze as well.

well, it's nice to enter knowing you have the capacity to win, so kudos to her. but personally, i would definitely never compete bronze in standard at this point because it would feel like incredibly poor sportsmanship...

[tanya_the_dancer]

Sam, Saw her dance...her technique, styling, etc was that easily of high silver, gold and beyond. However she did stay within the syllabus and she did not compete anything beyond bronze at all, so we can't say she was silver and used bronze to warm up. We discussed her at detail - could be a million reasons why...unfortunately none of us got a chance to ask her. And understand her Standard was just as good...and bronze as well.

I occasionally run into a person like this (perhaps it is even the same person, who knows). But I've also noticed that her teacher also has other students who dance lower than they should by the same token.

[njdancegirl]

am glad to hear. wouldn't begrudge her the entry if she obeyed the rules to win.



well, it's nice to enter knowing you have the capacity to win, so kudos to her. but personally, i would definitely never compete bronze in standard at this point because it would feel like incredibly poor sportsmanship...

I'm with you on this one...she didn't break the rules, but she and pro must know she is way beyond her competition. I'd rather move on and lose a few/work really hard, than breeze thru and take the easy win. Much more satisfying personally and it just wouldn't feel right to me to do that to the other competitors.

[njdancegirl]

I occasionally run into a person like this (perhaps it is even the same person, who knows). But I've also noticed that her teacher also has other students who dance lower than they should by the same token.

Could be...though it seems we've all run into a bunch like this...they must not read DF!

[dancinrina]

When I used to dance we had a girl like that in one of my group classes. She used to dance with her older brother. The group classes were organized by syllabus so, bronze, silver, etc. She stayed in the bronze class for a good 2.5 years, I think (seasons so, really like 1.5 years). She would always win the school comps and most of the national comps at "her level" so, I asked her once why she didn't just move on and let the rest of us get some glory. Her response was: "I want to be the best at something before moving on to something else". So, until she could win every comp in bronze, she was not going to move on to silver. I'm not sure how I feel about that. Part of me thinks it's disgusting but part of me completely understands.

[etp777]

Yeah, I tend to understand both views on this. WHile I certainly don't want to compete against someone who's at silver/gold level, alternatively, I want every bit of technique I can get, and certainly am doing nothing to limit myself to "bronze" technique, etc. With the exception of dances that change (like count in Foxtrot from bronze to silver), anything that's going to be an improvement to my dance I want to leran.

Luckily, no one is ever going to accuse me of sandbagging competing bronze at my current level of dancing. No chance of anything thinking I'm a silver or higher dance. :D

[Purr]

heh...

pro reported that three students approached him this past weekend about when i was giving up silver in standard. gave me an inkling that it's time to move on. but of course, he apparently told them that cuz i didn't win at manhattan i wasn't permitted to proceed, lol...

When are you planning on moving on? How will you, and pro, make that determination? Especially, how does winning and/or making finals factor in?

[samina]

When are you planning on moving on? How will you, and pro, make that determination? Especially, how does winning and/or making finals factor in?

my pro was just having his fun, i think... heh.

i have no plans to register for any more silver events for standard. i have one more this weekend, then i'll probly do some combo of open/dancesport or gold/dancesport, depending on whether the dancesport series is combined with the open scholarship, as it is at some locales. (i like to do five single dances plus one scholarship and the dancesport series...)

[Purr]

my pro was just having his fun, i think... heh.

i have no plans to register for any more silver events for standard. i have one more this weekend, then i'll probly do some combo of open/dancesport or gold/dancesport, depending on whether the dancesport series is combined with the open scholarship, as it is at some locales. (i like to do five single dances plus one scholarship and the dancesport series...)

Thank you.

[Standarddancer]

probably the best solution is try to place out of syllabus as soon as possible so once you start doing open, you can do whatever you want, figures are no longer a restriction;) no more worry of dancing out of syllabus;)

[Standarddancer]

my pro was just having his fun, i think... heh.

i have no plans to register for any more silver events for standard. i have one more this weekend, then i'll probly do some combo of open/dancesport or gold/dancesport, depending on whether the dancesport series is combined with the open scholarship, as it is at some locales. (i like to do five single dances plus one scholarship and the dancesport series...)

Go girl, Samina!!!!

[samina]

probably the best solution is try to place out of syllabus as soon as possible so once you start doing open, you can do whatever you want, figures are no longer a restriction;) no more worry of dancing out of syllabus;)
Yes, that's how it works in the am-am world, but the same restrictions do not apply to pro-ams.

[Josh]

Yes, that's how it works in the am-am world, but the same restrictions do not apply to pro-ams.

What restrictions?

[Easy]

I think it's great that they're cracking down. If it's a closed event, then that's how it should stay.

[Josh]

Ditto!

[drsamba]

I agree it's great that they're cracking down. But if I can add to a point that was made early, invigilating American style is a total joke. There are so many different syllabi that it is unreasonable to expect people to have a different routine in their back pocket for every different kind of comp they go to.

Let me relate a more personal story - there's a certain collegiate competition that has an invigilator who actually enforces things. Every time my team competed there, our poor team members would get called to her podium and she would indignantly point out that we were dancing out of the American syllabus - like there was only one! When we pointed out that there are several american syllabi, and that the even the USA Dance website made a note of that fact under the collegiate section, she would just shrug and say 'too bad'. This attitude personally affronted me as a dancer. Until American style syllabi are more unified, then it is unfair to expect dancers (particularly at the collegiate level IMO) to have 2-3 routines for each dance, or to expect them to dance open level just so that they're 'safe'.

[njdancegirl]

I agree, Dr Samba. American does have many syllabi, which makes it very hard to invigilate...seems like almost anything within reason is within some syllabus.

[Joe]

We discussed her at detail - could be a million reasons why
And one of them could be that she's part of a stable of ladies that "belong" to her pro, and there just happens to be another lady in the level above her (silver, gold, whatever it is) in her age category and style, and until that lady moves up she won't have the opportunity to fill that spot.

[White Chacha]

And one of them could be that she's part of a stable of ladies that "belong" to her pro, and there just happens to be another lady in the level above her (silver, gold, whatever it is) in her age category and style, and until that lady moves up she won't have the opportunity to fill that spot.

So this begs another question: does the pro strategically set up heats for the best results for said pro? I expect there's incentive there for things like best pro and best studio awards...
Yet that might not be the best thing for development of the am dancers in the "stable".

[Purr]

And one of them could be that she's part of a stable of ladies that "belong" to her pro, and there just happens to be another lady in the level above her (silver, gold, whatever it is) in her age category and style, and until that lady moves up she won't have the opportunity to fill that spot.

That's what I was thinking, too. If a pro is taking a lot of students to a competition, he has figure out how to slot them all in different age categories and levels. As a result, a student might dance in a lower level or lower age category than might be expected.

[Purr]

Well, it could be that a pro is trying to fit all of his students in, to maximize entries, especially if he's trying to make a run at top teacher prize money.

[Joe]

LOL, he should just try to lure Fascination away from her pro!

[Purr]

:lol:

[mamboqueen]

*doh*

[samina]

What restrictions?

placing (pointing) out of levels...

[njdancegirl]

And one of them could be that she's part of a stable of ladies that "belong" to her pro, and there just happens to be another lady in the level above her (silver, gold, whatever it is) in her age category and style, and until that lady moves up she won't have the opportunity to fill that spot.

In this case/at this comp, no "stable"...one of two ladies and different age categories.

Know what you all mean by this though - I am lucky enough that my stall is filled only by me since I am the youngest in the herd by a good number of years. Not sure I'd be happy dancing different age/level just because of another dancer...would pick comps where there weren't a large group going so I could dance where I should dance.

[samina]

And one of them could be that she's part of a stable of ladies that "belong" to her pro, and there just happens to be another lady in the level above her (silver, gold, whatever it is) in her age category and style, and until that lady moves up she won't have the opportunity to fill that spot.

yes, that's true.

[njdancegirl]

placing (pointing) out of levels...

Sam, think pro/am has this too if not mistaken. But there needs to be a semi and you must come in top position(s) to earn points...rarely happens in pro/am in my experience.

[samina]

I am lucky enough that my stall is filled only by me since I am the youngest in the herd by a good number of years.

lol... *snort*

[samina]

Sam, think pro/am has this too if not mistaken. But there needs to be a semi and you must come in top position(s) to earn points...rarely happens in pro/am in my experience.

huh... hadn't heard of that, as far as getting points to point out of a level. i do know that if you win a scholarship you're not to enter that same one the next year at the same comp.

unless it's open, of course...

[Purr]

i do know that if you win a scholarship you're not to enter that same one the next year at the same comp.

unless it's open, of course...

Just curious, where does it say this? Is it NDCA or the rules for a specific competition? Or just good sportsmanship?

[njdancegirl]

Maybe you are right - looked at NDCA rules online and only found this pertaining to pro/am dancers:

Recommendation for Organizers: Any Pro/Am Student Dancer winning at a level (Intermediate Bronze for example) may not enter that level again at that competition, provided a semi-final was danced.

Where organizers have experienced difficulty with multi-level registrations from students in Pro/Am competitions, the following guidelines may be helpful, and should be included in the Competition Package:
(1) Basic Registration - Students should dance one level only.
(2) Advanced Level Registrations - Students should dance one level only above the basic registration.
(3) Restricted Dance Registration - Students should be restricted from dancing in a particular dance in more than one level.
(4) Students should not register again in dances previously won at a particular level unless the student was uncontested at the time of winning.

Points system looked like it was for am/am couples at NDCA comps...above looks only like recommendations, not absolute rules.

[Josh]

Just curious, where does it say this? Is it NDCA or the rules for a specific competition? Or just good sportsmanship?

I think this is just good sportsmanship--would be too hard for anyone to really enforce this.

[samina]

see item number (4) in njdancegirl's quote above

[dancinrina]

That's what I never quite understood about pro-am. What happens if you have 2 students of the same age, at the same level. Do you only dance with one and ignore the other?

[samina]

That's what I never quite understood about pro-am. What happens if you have 2 students of the same age, at the same level. Do you only dance with one and ignore the other?

probly dance with either whoever has the best chance of winning... or whoever pays the most, lol.

but realistically, it's just a "slot" that can get filled. if a pro is booked for those slots, he's not available to dance with you so... that's the way it is. he can't dance with more than one per category.

[Purr]

That's what I never quite understood about pro-am. What happens if you have 2 students of the same age, at the same level. Do you only dance with one and ignore the other?

Many competitions allow students to dance more than one age category, for example their true age category and one lower. So, one solution would be to have a student dance in the true category and one in the lower.

[njdancegirl]

That's what I never quite understood about pro-am. What happens if you have 2 students of the same age, at the same level. Do you only dance with one and ignore the other?

See Joes' quote above...you put one in a different age category or level so that you can dance with both of them. Not a problem in pro/am since so many ages and levels to choose from.

[mamboqueen]

I think it's actually in some comp's rules that you can't dance the same scholarship if you won (and I want to say USDSC is one of them) it the preceding year.

If you have 2 students, same age/same level, you can probably have them dance single dances where they are at, or if it's a scholarship, place someone at a higher level (although I have seen people place them at a lower level; I personally don't care for that option). Or, many studios simply alternate who does the scholarship.

[Purr]

see item number (4) in njdancegirl's quote above

It seems to be just a recommendation though, not something that's enforceable.

[njdancegirl]

It seems to be just a recommendation though, not something that's enforceable.

Seems like pro/am rules are comp specific - NDCA just offered recommendations...if you read each comps rules page on their website, they are quite similar in most cases, but each has subtle changes on certain events.

[samina]

yes, i agree with both you. and then gets back to josh' comment about sportsmanship. which is basically the underlying theme of this thread. *technically* one might be able to make a number of dance decisions "legally", but... they might not be very good sportsmanship.

[njdancegirl]

which is basically the underlying theme of this thread.

Excellent point - we've moved throughout a number of topics on this thread (syllabus, levels, etc), but sportsmanship is definitely the common theme here. Seems some might need a lesson in that, not dance steps or technique.

[samina]

and still... focusing on one's dancing and one's own sportsmanship is IMO the best response to those situations that seem unfair. get as good as you can and be as classy in your choices, that's i think what establishes the winners i most admire...

[Laura]

That's what I never quite understood about pro-am. What happens if you have 2 students of the same age, at the same level. Do you only dance with one and ignore the other?
Another option is to take one student to some competitions, and the other to other competitions. I know several students who are in this situation.

[Standarddancer]

Well, it could be that a pro is trying to fit all of his students in, to maximize entries, especially if he's trying to make a run at top teacher prize money.

oh this sucks:( this seems like all about money making, not about dancing...seems to me this pro is putting quantity more a priority than quality...

[wooh]

Well it's not just to get top teacher and make the pro money. The more students a pro can fit in, the more the pro's costs get divided among students, and thus is cheaper for all involved.

[samina]

oh this sucks:( this seems like all about money making, not about dancing...seems to me this pro is putting quantity more a priority than quality...

well, to be fair... it *is* a business... and it's not like most dance instructors are rolling in the dough. they have to work hard for it.

[njdancegirl]

oh this sucks:( this seems like all about money making, not about dancing...seems to me this pro is putting quantity more a priority than quality...

The good ones are concerned about quality while making a living...it is their reputation on the line as well. And since much of an independent instructors business is word of mouth, they depend heavily on their reputation.

[samina]

The good ones are concerned about quality while making a living...it is their reputation on the line as well. And since much of an independent instructors business is word of mouth, they depend heavily on their reputation.

*definitely*

it ideally works to the good of everyone. even those darn sandbaggers, lol...

[Joe]

Another option is to take one student to some competitions, and the other to other competitions. I know several students who are in this situation.
If either of the students is a competition slut (no offense), this probably won't work. ;)

[samina]

If either of the students is a competition slut (no offense), this probably won't work. ;)
Heyyy..... I resemble that remark!

;)

[njdancegirl]

If either of the students is a competition slut (no offense), this probably won't work. ;)

Like that...comp slut...going to have to borrow that line!

[Standarddancer]

If either of the students is a competition slut (no offense), this probably won't work. :wink:

Hey, if either of students is comp addicted (let's put this way), better neither of them show their addiction to comp when discussing the pricing of comp with the pro. Otherwise it's just too easy job for pro to say "I take whoever offers higher price"...

[Standarddancer]

well, to be fair... it *is* a business... and it's not like most dance instructors are rolling in the dough. they have to work hard for it.

Agree it's business, pro have to make living from the income. But I'm saying just trying to fit all students in multiple slot of age & level category might reduce the quality of performance of each category - some big comp like Manhattan interleaves scholarship pro-am A & B when both categories have multiple rounds (without breaks), managing how tired is the pro after student A off floor QF round, he has to take student B on floor for QF for B category, same goes on for semi, final, etc. Imagine how exhausting the final would be for the pro if both A & B students make final !!! Quality of dancing certainly not as great as if there is one student dancing at one category. That's what I mean by more quantity, less quality.

[Laura]

But I'm saying just trying to fit all students in multiple slot of age & level category might reduce the quality of performance of each category - some big comp like Manhattan interleaves scholarship pro-am A & B when both categories have multiple rounds (without breaks), managing how tired is the pro after student A off floor QF round, he has to take student B on floor for QF for B category, same goes on for semi, final, etc. Imagine how exhausting the final would be for the pro if both A & B students make final !!! Quality of dancing certainly not as great as if there is one student dancing at one category. That's what I mean by more quantity, less quality.
I see students (not just teachers) doing A + B (or B + C) frequently. There was at least one such lady at Manhattan, and she made the finals in both. At Desert Classic most of the people in B (started in a semi) also danced A (also a semi). I see teachers whose students usually place very very high (and/or win) do this all the time. Somehow they all make it work. Me, I couldn't do it, but that's just me.

Also, since this is a Syllabus thread (or was), keep in mind that the Syllabus multi-dance events are usually 3 and 4 dances, not all 5, and most syllabus dancers aren't moving all that much as compared to what the Pro can produce in a Pro event, so it's not as strenuous for the people involved.

[fascination]

Like that...comp slut...going to have to borrow that line!
I personally find it offensive and inaccurate (even though it no longer applies to me;)) going to numerous comps takes allot of time, money and energy and nothing about that (IMV) is worth a derogatroy term...joseph

[samina]

Imagine how exhausting the final would be for the pro if both A & B students make final !!! Quality of dancing certainly not as great as if there is one student dancing at one category. That's what I mean by more quantity, less quality.

true. last thursday, my pro had three of us dancing four scholarships in latin. that's a lotta dancing...

glad he's the energizer bunny. but honestly, that only goes so far when he has is own pro events to contend with.

[samina]

I personally find it offensive and inaccurate (even though it no longer applies to me;)) going to numerous comps takes allot of time, money and energy and nothing about that (IMV) is worth a derogatroy term...joseph

it's fun slang, but i agree, it doesn't correlate with the reality of comping. maybe that's the ironic appeal of it... it's so completely contrary to what the energy is of being deep into competition.

[fascination]

in general I have an aversion to the ever growing coarse-ness of daily dialogue...I think it degrades us all and make the whole world resemble the rosanne show...not that I am innocent of it mind you...but I tend to find it less creative and innouous than previously

[Standarddancer]

Also, since this is a Syllabus thread (or was), keep in mind that the Syllabus multi-dance events are usually 3 and 4 dances, not all 5, and most syllabus dancers aren't moving all that much as compared to what the Pro can produce in a Pro event, so it's not as strenuous for the people involved.

yes right, forgot that syllabus doesn't have V waltz which is tedious and if not done right, all energies could be wasted on early rounds.

[2totango]

Okay, so here is a slightly uninformed question: if any NDCA syllabus is accepted at an NDCA competition and there are several syllabi that may be used, than how can the observer know if any dancer is dancing out of syllabus? I know AM and FADS have their own syllabi, but so does ISTD and any of the member orgs of NDCA may have their own syllabus. I am sure there are standard steps in every syllabus, but I also know different syllabi call these standard steps different names.

I have seen a certain well know pro dance the amateur out of category, but I wouldn't know if the steps were in or out of syllabus.

[njdancegirl]

NDCA does have a syllabus for each style with all the steps on their website in the rulebook, so you could look there for what they are most commonly using.

And while each syllabus may differ slightly, think each follows a few common rules (ie. no develope in Bronze Smooth, no swivels in Bronze Latin, no side by side footwork in Bronze Rhythm/Latin, etc).

[NielsenE]

And while each syllabus may differ slightly, think each follows a few common rules (ie. no develope in Bronze Smooth, no swivels in Bronze Latin, no side by side footwork in Bronze Rhythm/Latin, etc).

The trouble, both FADS and USISTD, at least, and I think AMI as well, have steps in their official syllabus that break those restrictions --
USISTD and FADS includes an oversway in their bronze which is against the n picture line meta-rule that NDCA lists for bronze. FADS include several figures with one-two bars on continuity action, etc.

The USISTD manual, at least, notes the oversway issue and dictates that it can't be used a most NDCA events ,etc

[njdancegirl]

The trouble, both FADS and USISTD, at least, and I think AMI as well, have steps in their official syllabus that break those restrictions --
USISTD and FADS includes an oversway in their bronze which is against the n picture line meta-rule that NDCA lists for bronze. FADS include several figures with one-two bars on continuity action, etc.

The USISTD manual, at least, notes the oversway issue and dictates that it can't be used a most NDCA events ,etc

Huh...just in American or Intl too? Was under the impression that there was only one Intl syllabus...maybe two, compared to the 5 or so in American. Rules are definitely much clearer in Standard and Latin as compared to Smooth and Rhythm.

[Laura]

There are three major ones in International style: ISTD, ITDA, and now DVIDA. But the real problem is with the plethora of American Style Syllabi.

[Standarddancer]

Just notice your cool new Latin Avatar, njdancegirl;)

[njdancegirl]

There are three major ones in International style: ISTD, ITDA, and now DVIDA. But the real problem is with the plethora of American Style Syllabi.

Laura, What is ITDA? Think I always use ISTD and heard about new DVIDA, but not aware of the third.

[njdancegirl]

Just notice your cool new Latin Avatar, njdancegirl;)

Thanks...funny that I even had a Standard avatar seeing how little Standard I actually dance...:rolleyes:

[Terpsichorean Clod]

laura, What Is Itda? Think I Always Use Istd And Heard About New Dvida, But Not Aware Of The Third.
Idta

[Terpsichorean Clod]

The trouble, both FADS and USISTD, at least, and I think AMI as well, have steps in their official syllabus that break those restrictions --
USISTD and FADS includes an oversway in their bronze which is against the n picture line meta-rule that NDCA lists for bronze. FADS include several figures with one-two bars on continuity action, etc.

The USISTD manual, at least, notes the oversway issue and dictates that it can't be used a most NDCA events ,etc
Similarly, DVIDA has Fallaway and Box in the bronze waltz syllabus, but fallaway actions are prohibited in bronze according to the NDCA rulebook.

[njdancegirl]

http://www.ndca.org/information/rules/rules_pdfs/Rulebook_Master.pdf

If you go to the back of the rulebook, they list everything they recognize...wouldn't one just use this list when creating their syllabus routines then and forget all the others...at least when it comes to their NDCA comps?

[samina]

Thanks...funny that I even had a Standard avatar seeing how little Standard I actually dance...:rolleyes:

Very cute. From the long shot, you look like a little playboy bunny... ;)

[and123]

Samina! :shock:

[samina]

Wha...???

[syncopationator]

I think that if a pro uses open material even if his student is doing closed material they should be penalized. If the pro doesn't know closed material, then they should learn it or not dance closed comps.


It is completely unfair to the male amateurs in pro/am when dancing in scholarships or combined heats with the ladies.

That's what I think anyway...

[Joe]

Samina! :shock:
It's the choker.

[njdancegirl]

It's the choker.

Maybe I should add ears/tail for my next comp...:)

[2totango]

I've read the NDCA rule book and haven't seen a full syllabus on there; just a list of all the syllabi they recognize. But, if you don't have a syllabus from each member organization, than how can you know if someone is dancing in syllabus? Maybe I am just being obtuse here. :rolleyes:

[samina]

Maybe I should add ears/tail for my next comp...:)

one of those little ruffly tails and sparkly crystal ABs might give the same impression...:)

[njdancegirl]

I've read the NDCA rule book and haven't seen a full syllabus on there; just a list of all the syllabi they recognize. But, if you don't have a syllabus from each member organization, than how can you know if someone is dancing in syllabus? Maybe I am just being obtuse here. :rolleyes:

http://www.ndca.org/information/rule...ook_Master.pdf (http://www.ndca.org/information/rule...ook_Master.pdf)

Starts on page 39...shows figures and restrictions at each level/dance.

[Standarddancer]

Maybe I should add ears/tail for my next comp...:)

that would be even cuter :p

[2totango]

Oooooh! thanks standardancer, I missed that!

[syncopationator]

I've read the NDCA rule book and haven't seen a full syllabus on there; just a list of all the syllabi they recognize. But, if you don't have a syllabus from each member organization, than how can you know if someone is dancing in syllabus? Maybe I am just being obtuse here. :rolleyes:

I'm not hugely concerned with having a slightly advanced step or two in your syllabus routine (i.e. a silver step or two in a bronze routine, or a gold step or two in a silver routine) to make it flow better. The issue is with figures that are cleary of open nature being used in these routines.

[Chris Stratton]

http://www.ndca.org/information/rule...ook_Master.pdf (http://www.ndca.org/information/rule...ook_Master.pdf)

Starts on page 39...shows figures and restrictions at each level/dance.

But this is not the complete set of legal material for the american style events, as the syllabi of member organizations (which NDCA is not in a position to reprint) are also allowed.

[jump'n'jive]

But this is not the complete set of legal material for the american style events, as the syllabi of member organizations (which NDCA is not in a position to reprint) are also allowed.
but this still doesnt make sense because the ndca says it recognizes fads and am syllabi. i know both syllabus and there are figures in bronze that are not allowed yet they say they recognize it. i got called on it at heritage this year with one of my students. the invig was from fads and i was clearly doing a fads figure and she said it still wasnt allowed.

[njdancegirl]

but this still doesnt make sense because the ndca says it recognizes fads and am syllabi. i know both syllabus and there are figures in bronze that are not allowed yet they say they recognize it. i got called on it at heritage this year with one of my students. the invig was from fads and i was clearly doing a fads figure and she said it still wasnt allowed.

Do they recognize most of the syllabus except where noted as a restriction in the rulebook as Neilson mentioned above with certain steps? Or are there so many syllabi that even invigilator doesn't know whats allowed/recognized and what isn't?

If thats the case, its too much work to look up each step at each level IMO...I always err on the conservative side and would just follow what they've got listed in book and be done with it. Easier said than done for those following chain syllabi as well I'm sure.