Are Titles Important Anymore?

[JodiD]

It doesn't seem that titles mean much anymore. If I were anywhere near the North American Championships, I would cherish that title. It just sounds great to be the North American Champion, even in marbles. Which title, as a dance couple, would you like on your resume. The Champion of the desert, a ball, a borough, a city, a state, a country, or a continent. I don't know about you, but I'll take the continent on my resume any day.

Bottom line, titles and championships seem to have lost their import, especially taking into account that the North American Championships was the smallest comp of the weekend and just ripe for the taking.

[samina]

It doesn't seem that titles mean much anymore. If I were anywhere near the North American Championships, I would cherish that title. It just sounds great to be the North American Champion, even in marbles. Which title, as a dance couple, would you like on your resume. The Champion of the desert, a ball, a borough, a city, a state, a country, or a continent. I don't know about you, but I'll take the continent on my resume any day.

Bottom line, titles and championships seem to have lost their import, especially taking into account that the North American Championships was the smallest comp of the weekend and just ripe for the taking.

Lol, yah...my pro joked on this account as well over the weekend, as I won an open pro-am scholarship and he said I was now "north american champion"...which is a silly title for such a teeny comp.

Speaking as a pro-am-er, it seems the only title I would be proud of with a straight face might be the national championship at USDSC. Winning "world pro-am champion" at OSB just seems ludicrous, since where else in the world besides the US is there significant pro-am competition? But I guess that could be taken in the spirit of "the world series", which is a US phenom.

Other than that, for pro-am-ers it's more relevant that you have won at a larger comp, such as OSB or Manhattan. And in the scheme of things, I think the status is higher generally if you win in the A age divison rather than B...those dancers appear closer to Pro RS capability overall than the Bs (speaking as a B...)

My nickel's worth... Would be interested to hear what other pro-am-ers think. As well as the pros & ams.

[GJB]

Well, it seems that North American Championships is just the name of a competition and not really significant compared to the a national or world championship event. And, winning it sound more impressive to an outsider than it is to people who follow what is going on. However, I wouldn't conclude that titles don't mean anything. It seems that soon after someone wins a title, their rate goes up! How ironic for me that this came up today.

[mamboqueen]

It Seems That Soon After Someone Wins A Title, Their Rate Go Up! How Ironic For Me That This Came Up Today.

;) !

[samina]

Ahh... Yes, definitely a helpful thing for a pro's business, I suppose. If a significant win is achieved.

If I were a pro or an am, I guess I could see taking pleasure in collecting titles...even if there is irony involved, such as with this recent comp. The title becomes its own trophy, I suppose. Have never been one for collecting or respecting titles much in other aspects of life, tho.

[Laura]

And in the scheme of things, I think the status is higher generally if you win in the A age divison rather than B...
Although it is widely acknowledged that the Open "B" Pro/Am Standard is the most competitive of the three age groups. It has been suggested to me several times to dance "down" into A because it's not as tough, but I don't see the point personally in doing it since people are telling me it's already easier. And so then it would be worse to do poorly in A when I can just poke along doing what I'm doing in B :)

[Laura]

And, winning it sound more impressive to an outsider than it is to people who follow what is going on.
Yeah, like all those times that Edyta on "Dancing with the Stars" was referred to as "International Grand Ball Champion." IGB is a great comp, but it's not the US Championships and it's not Ohio Star Ball.

[pasopaul]

Speaking as a pro-am-er, it seems the only title I would be proud of with a straight face might be the national championship at USDSC. Winning "world pro-am champion" at OSB just seems ludicrous, since where else in the world besides the US is there significant pro-am competition? But I guess that could be taken in the spirit of "the world series", which is a US phenom.

Dear Samina,

As a pro who has been competing with my students not just in the US but in countries outside North America, I would agree that currently the US is the country which has the most numerous Pro-Am competitions and competitors. The thing that might surprise you is that in the past 2 or 3 years the Pro-Am scene outside the US has been growing rapidly, particularly in countries such as Italy and Russia. In fact, I know of 3 competitions this year that will be held in Russia and another 3 comps in Italy. At this stage they are only small, but as we have seen with Professional and Amateur competitions they have the ability to grow quite quickly.

The USA has taken time to get to the size and quality that it has but give it 5 or 10 years and Europe could certainly catch up. Surely then, and I believe even now, a World title in Pro-am is certainly something worthwhile and something to be proud of!

Lets hope the scene does grow internationally, and that Pro-Am can become a world-wide sport and business. It certainly deserves to be more than "just an American thing".

regards,

Paul Richardson:cheers::applause:

[Laura]

Good point, Paul. I have competed against Pro/Am students from Australia, Russia, and Hong Kong.

[samina]

Although it is widely acknowledged that the Open "B" Pro/Am Standard is the most competitive of the three age groups. It has been suggested to me several times to dance "down" into A because it's not as tough, but I don't see the point personally in doing it since people are telling me it's already easier.
Yes, have had the same conversation numerous time with my pro...that B is more competitive in that there are generally more dancers vying for placement, and they are solid and well-trained.

But I see dancers in A that are more likely to be able to move into the Champ Amateur or Pro RS arenas...

That's just my observation. To win in that company is to my mind a different kind of status, which I do respect.

[fascination]

Lol, yah...my pro joked on this account as well over the weekend, as I won an open pro-am scholarship and he said I was now "north american champion"...which is a silly title for such a teeny comp.

Speaking as a pro-am-er, it seems the only title I would be proud of with a straight face might be the national championship at USDSC. Winning "world pro-am champion" at OSB just seems ludicrous, since where else in the world besides the US is there significant pro-am competition? But I guess that could be taken in the spirit of "the world series", which is a US phenom.

Other than that, for pro-am-ers it's more relevant that you have won at a larger comp, such as OSB or Manhattan. And in the scheme of things, I think the status is higher generally if you win in the A age divison rather than B...those dancers appear closer to Pro RS capability overall than the Bs (speaking as a B...)

My nickel's worth... Would be interested to hear what other pro-am-ers think. As well as the pros & ams.
USDSC and Ohio are both great comps and USDSC was definately bigger last year, but I think ohio still has it with regard to the number and calibre of competing pro-ammers...personally, I'd be ecstatic to win at either place not because of the title but because I could be certain that I won against very good dancers

[Laura]

But I see dancers in A that are more likely to be able to move into the Champ Amateur or Pro RS arenas...
But that's also just an age thing. If you're in A you are under 35, and so are in more of a position to move into these arenas where your age matches your peers anyway. I am over 35, and when I do Amateur I will focus on Senior I because of my age (but of course dancing in regular Adult because it's fun). You simply do not see many new RS Pros who are in their late 30's or early 40's, although there are some around. What I'm saying is that people who are in the A range also self-select for A (as in Adult Championship) if they shift out of Pro/Am.

[samina]

Yes, I understand. But whether by age or athleticism, the energy and artistry (including the quality of expression possible with a more flexible spine, which is usually less present in older dancers) of the As is just different from what is usually seen in the Bs and Seniors.

To win B is tough, but to win A requires a youthfulness and athleticism which I would regard as a certain status for a B competitor. JMO...

[Bailamosdance]

Isn't the Ohio Star Ball closed to North America?

[chocolatchica]

Yeah, like all those times that Edyta on "Dancing with the Stars" was referred to as "International Grand Ball Champion." IGB is a great comp, but it's not the US Championships and it's not Ohio Star Ball.
I know! I've seen some Dancing with the Stars people putting little comps on their TV resume. Guess we're the only ones that realize that its not as WOW as it sounds.

[chocolatchica]

Yes, I understand. But whether by age or athleticism, the energy and artistry (including the quality of expression possible with a more flexible spine, which is usually less present in older dancers) of the As is just different from what is usually seen in the Bs and Seniors.

To win B is tough, but to win A requires a youthfulness and athleticism which I would regard as a certain status for a B competitor. JMO...
Could anyone please give me a quick breakdown of the age division for A and B. Having a little trouble following.

[GJB]

Could anyone please give me a quick breakdown of the age division for A and B. Having a little trouble following.

A is for adults 35 and under. Have to be at least 36 to dance in B.

[chocolatchica]

A is for adults 35 and under. Have to be at least 36 to dance in B.
Ok thanks

[GJB]

I think 36 and over is also sometimes called Senior I. Can't say I'm crazy about that name ) :

[tbrennen]

A is for adults 35 and under. Have to be at least 36 to dance in B.

Actually, A is for anyone who is 16 or older. A 50 year old may dance A. However, B is only for those 35 or older. The same goes for both Pro/Am and Amateur, although the name of the categories is usually different for the Amateur. The age categories are not actually in the NDCA rulebook for Pro/Am but 35 is usually the A-B break point. However, the organizers have the option of using whatever age ladder they wish.

In Amateur, Senior I was used for the over-35 internationally and then imported to the US by USA Dance but I am seeing it more and more in the NDCA-sanctioned comps as well. Yeah, Senior I doesn't really sound all that great. How about instead of Senior I Championship, we call it Mature Championship? Or maybe Experienced Championship? "Slightly Used Championship"? Well-Worn Championship? Treachery Championship? (This last would be courtesy of the old proverb, "Old age and treachery will always overcome youth and skill")

[samina]

Dear Samina,

As a pro who has been competing with my students not just in the US but in countries outside North America, I would agree that currently the US is the country which has the most numerous Pro-Am competitions and competitors. The thing that might surprise you is that in the past 2 or 3 years the Pro-Am scene outside the US has been growing rapidly, particularly in countries such as Italy and Russia. In fact, I know of 3 competitions this year that will be held in Russia and another 3 comps in Italy. At this stage they are only small, but as we have seen with Professional and Amateur competitions they have the ability to grow quite quickly.

The USA has taken time to get to the size and quality that it has but give it 5 or 10 years and Europe could certainly catch up. Surely then, and I believe even now, a World title in Pro-am is certainly something worthwhile and something to be proud of!

Lets hope the scene does grow internationally, and that Pro-Am can become a world-wide sport and business. It certainly deserves to be more than "just an American thing".

regards,

Paul Richardson:cheers::applause:
What an encouraging report, Paul! Yes, that would IMO be wonderdul for pro-am...for As and Bs alike. :)

It might be fun to travel as a US competitor to one of these pro-am competitions. If the budget presents...

I recall a "world pro-am" title event last year in...Argentina I think? I remember discussion on DF about it, and a DFer attended. It would be thrilling as a pro-amer to have the international venues & opportunities available to ams & pros.

[Laura]

In Pro/Am the division between "A" and "B" slides depending on the comp. At Colorado Star Ball, I was too young for "B" even though I am over 35 and have been dancing "B" for several years. The next weekend, at Manhattan, it was the usual 35-and-over. This is yet another reason why I always say that people need to check the rules and entry forms for NDCA comps, as comps differ :)

In USA Dance Amateur, 35 & Over is called "Senior I." There is also a "Senior II" that starts at 45, and a "Senior III" that starts at 55. The IDSF is considering changing the names of these to Adult 1 (for the current regular adults), Adult 2 (for Senior I) and so on.

I don't really care what they call it so long as I am able to be dancing in it, but I know people who are definitely over 35 who refuse to dance in "Senior I" because it has the word "Senior" in it. Guess they didn't like being "Seniors" in high school or college, either :)

[fascination]

exactly...I am A2 at usdsc and ohio I beleive and can dance down to A1 if I wish and this is the case most places though for scholarship it is sometimes B depending on the place...

[ChaChaMama]

What Laura said. This has actually always seemed to me like one of the most confusing aspects of pro-am. There is no standardization. If you are 36 and your pro has another student who is 45, are you in the same age category or not? Answer is...it depends on the comp! (No wonder there are so many sub-ability levels and you are allowed to dance levels other than your true age; otherwise, ultra popular pro-am teachers would have to have students thumb wrestle for the privilege of competing. It could get ugly, especially with those long comp nails. But I digress....)

USA Dance comps have agreed on a standard age category formula. I did like it better when they called my age category "B" than when they re-named it "Senior I," since I don't seem to be getting any sweet AARP deals on my room, but I'll deal. At most college comps, there is just one age category (even though we "senior" types are allowed to compete. ;))

Survey of some recent and soon to come pro-am comp age categories:

YANKEE:
A1 16-20
A2 21-30
A3 31-40
B1 41-50
B2 51-60
B3 61-70
C1 71-80
C2 80 +
I guess those New England winters make you old fast.

CAPITAL (and also OHIO):
A1 16-35
A2 36-50
B1 51-60
B2 61-70
C1 71-80
C2 81+

USDSC
A1 16-30
A2 31-40
A3 41-50
B1 51-60
B2 61-70
C1 71-80
C2 81+

Note that a 35 year old is A1 at Capital/Ohio, A2 at USDSC, and A3 at Yankee. A 41 year old is A2 at Capital, A3 at USDSC, and B1 at Yankee. Hmmm...think I prefer the "vanity sizing" age categories.

[Laura]

Yeah, there's some comp I was looking at (or maybe registered for, I can't recall any more, guess I'll know when I get there) where I was a B1 although I've been an A2 or A3 at all the other comps I've done this year.

[pasopaul]

I recall a "world pro-am" title event last year in...Argentina I think? I remember discussion on DF about it, and a DFer attended. It would be thrilling as a pro-amer to have the international venues & opportunities available to ams & pros.

The competition in Argentina was the 'World Dance Council' sanctioned World Pro-Am Championships. It has been held in Buenos Aries for the past 2 years. While it is not a huge competition in comparison to some competitions in the US, you would have to consider it a True World Championship in that it had couples competing in it from all over the World. Couples who competed come from countries such as South Africa, Japan, USA, Argentina, Chile, Hong Kong, Canada, Australia, Russia and Italy. Invited dignitaries included the Ambassadors of 10 different countries. The first year of the event their was also a sizable Press contingent including reporters from Assoc. Press and Rueters.
On a personal note, I would have to say that it was one of the most exciting events I have been to anywhere in the World including Pro-Am, Amateur & Professional events and that is over a 30 year competitive career. The thing that stood out was the enthusiasm of the Audience. From 10 in the Morning till 6 at night the crowd were chanting their support for the couples and for their countries. It reminded me of a European Soccer match in the level of noise that was in a small room. The local Argentinians and the people from Chile were asking for Autographs and pictures not only from the Professionals but for the Pro-Am students. They were all stars in the audiences opinions!!!
The WDC World Pro-Am will be held again next year, this time in a new location as the WDC do not allow World Champs to be run in the same country more than twice in a row, but I hear rumours that it will be held in a Country closer to the USA this time which will cut down on costs and make it more accessible to everyone. I definitely recomend to everyone to participate.

Paul Richardson:peace:

[samina]

I will definitely stay tuned...sounds like a thrilling experience I'd enjoy being part of!

Thanks for the report, Paul.

[Larinda McRaven]

you would have to consider it a True World Championship in that it had couples competing in it from all over the World.......

.....I definitely recomend to everyone to participate.
Paul Richardson:peace:
Are they going to offer American Style this time? Cause if they are I would bring ALL my guys! I would so love to have some diversity.

[Ithink]

I think for USA Dance a person can be 34 and dance Senior I in the year in which they are turning 35. So I guess if your birthday is in December, you can have quite the advantage the year you turn 35;)

[pasopaul]

Hi Larinda,

They have World Titles in all divisions in all Styles, Latin, Standard, Rhythm & Smooth

Paul

[fascination]

begins to ruminate about how to get to argentina without a plane ;)

[mamboqueen]

begins to ruminate about how to get to argentina without a plane ;)

I know a nice fellow who can get you to Venezuela on a ship ;)

[fascination]

lol...pm me the date and a picture of the dude ;)

[dancinrina]

begins to ruminate about how to get to argentina without a plane ;)

What's wrong with planes?

[Standarddancer]

I will definitely stay tuned...sounds like a thrilling experience I'd enjoy being part of!

Thanks for the report, Paul.

sounds like great report for pro-am dancers!!!, maybe one day we'll see semina and Laura represent USA to the world for pro-am World championship!!! for sure you guys will be DF's pround!

[Standarddancer]

What Laura said. This has actually always seemed to me like one of the most confusing aspects of pro-am. There is no standardization. If you are 36 and your pro has another student who is 45, are you in the same age category or not? Answer is...it depends on the comp! (No wonder there are so many sub-ability levels and you are allowed to dance levels other than your true age; otherwise, ultra popular pro-am teachers would have to have students thumb wrestle for the privilege of competing. It could get ugly, especially with those long comp nails. But I digress....)

USA Dance comps have agreed on a standard age category formula. I did like it better when they called my age category "B" than when they re-named it "Senior I," since I don't seem to be getting any sweet AARP deals on my room, but I'll deal. At most college comps, there is just one age category (even though we "senior" types are allowed to compete. ;))

Survey of some recent and soon to come pro-am comp age categories:

YANKEE:
A1 16-20
A2 21-30
A3 31-40
B1 41-50
B2 51-60
B3 61-70
C1 71-80
C2 80 +
I guess those New England winters make you old fast.

CAPITAL (and also OHIO):
A1 16-35
A2 36-50
B1 51-60
B2 61-70
C1 71-80
C2 81+

USDSC
A1 16-30
A2 31-40
A3 41-50
B1 51-60
B2 61-70
C1 71-80
C2 81+

Note that a 35 year old is A1 at Capital/Ohio, A2 at USDSC, and A3 at Yankee. A 41 year old is A2 at Capital, A3 at USDSC, and B1 at Yankee. Hmmm...think I prefer the "vanity sizing" age categories.

oh my...these age category chart makes my head spin...lol...can't NDCA make a unified age category for all comps to make both teacher and students life easier?

[Laura]

I think for USA Dance a person can be 34 and dance Senior I in the year in which they are turning 35. So I guess if your birthday is in December, you can have quite the advantage the year you turn 35;)
Yes, this is true. USA Dance and the IDSF go by year of birth, not age on the date of the competition. Last time I checked, NDCA went by age on the date of the competition.

[Laura]

sounds like great report for pro-am dancers!!!, maybe one day we'll see semina and Laura represent USA to the world for pro-am World championship!!! for sure you guys will be DF's pround!
There were some Pro/Am comps in Europe -- one in France and one in Spain, that at one point TS wanted to go to. I'm thinking no, plane tickets are way too expensive.

[samina]

sounds like great report for pro-am dancers!!!, maybe one day we'll see semina and Laura represent USA to the world for pro-am World championship!!! for sure you guys will be DF's pround!

one can only hope. what a great martini smackdown *that* would be...:cool:

[Standarddancer]

one can only hope. what a great martini smackdown *that* would be...:cool:

oh yeah, martini smackdown on a world stage, even more fun!!!

[Standarddancer]

There were some Pro/Am comps in Europe -- one in France and one in Spain, that at one point TS wanted to go to. I'm thinking no, plane tickets are way too expensive.

quite expensive, might only make sense if you want to combine a personal vacation with a comp in that case...hey, you never know, maybe one day you and Semina will be top 2 pro-am dancers in country, maybe some organization might pay for you guys to go world pro-am championship:) like USA Dance pay top 2 am couples of each category to world championship...well, let's hope...;)

[Larinda McRaven]

What's wrong with planes?

Fascination don't fly.

[Larinda McRaven]

Hi Larinda,

They have World Titles in all divisions in all Styles, Latin, Standard, Rhythm & Smooth

Paul

Niiiiice! I never paid attention to the one in Argentina since I knew that week I could not make it. I will definitley listen up for the next one!

[fascination]

Fascination don't fly.
not without substantial amounts of medication, very little notice that i am going to avoid the pre-flight angst, and no other viable way to get there;)

[Terpsichorean Clod]

I know a nice fellow who can get you to Venezuela on a ship ;)
There are ships departing from the Midwest? :shock:

[Larinda McRaven]

Sure down the Old Mighty Mississip.

[fascination]

sillies, I can drive to the ocean ;)

[reb]

St. Lawrence Seaway

[dancinrina]

Fascination don't fly.

Wow... that must make life extremely difficult for her. I can't imagine not being able to fly.

[fascination]

I can fly and have...I just prefer not to...strongly

[fascination]

um...BOT now plz

[Larinda McRaven]

ok...

[fascination]

lol...says the pot to the kettle...I just feel obligated on LG's behalf...someone's got to do the job ;)

[latingal]

lol...says the pot to the kettle...I just feel obligated on LG's behalf...someone's got to do the job ;)

thanks, good to know I'm the wet blanket.... *grin*

[ChaChaMama]

It doesn't seem that titles mean much anymore. If I were anywhere near the North American Championships, I would cherish that title. It just sounds great to be the North American Champion, even in marbles. Which title, as a dance couple, would you like on your resume. The Champion of the desert, a ball, a borough, a city, a state, a country, or a continent. I don't know about you, but I'll take the continent on my resume any day.

Bottom line, titles and championships seem to have lost their import, especially taking into account that the North American Championships was the smallest comp of the weekend and just ripe for the taking.

Getting back to the original topic of this thread (hey, just trying to help out ;))...good question. I would guess that some of the following factors are at play:

1) Inertia. People tend to go to the same comps year after year, both because they like them and out of habit. This comp went away for a few years, if I am not mistaken, and has only been back for 2-3 years. So it's in a rebuilding phase.

2) Competition from other competitions. June-July is a fuller time of year than many, with Yankee, then Millennium, then Manhattan...and more to come. Some of those other competitions are known quantities, where competitors can more or less count on a decent field in most events. North American may feel like more of a gamble to some people.

I hope this comp does rebuild. It's only about a 2.5 hr drive for me, and if I hadn't driven to Jersey the past three weekends (on my way to Yankee, then grandma's funeral, then on the way to Manhattan), with plans to go AGAIN this week for a blast of fun and sun at the Jersey shore, I would definitely have gone. (In fact, if my spouse were willing to go, would have been there in a flash.)

[Standarddancer]

not without substantial amounts of medication, very little notice that i am going to avoid the pre-flight angst, and no other viable way to get there;)

so sorry that you need medication for flying:(...

I hate flying too cos the annoying security check; at one flying comp immediately after the news of liquid bomb, airport security just got so retarded to a point that they didn't even allow lipstick, liquid eyeliner, mascara; I forgot to pack my MAC shimmering power eyeshadow separately and they attempt to confiscate that one as well as my creamy based eyeshadow base:( hate that....

[mamboqueen]

so sorry that you need medication for flying:(...

I hate flying too cos the annoying security check; at one flying comp immediately after the news of liquid bomb, airport security just got so retarded to a point that they didn't even allow lipstick, liquid eyeliner, mascara; I forgot to pack my MAC shimmering power eyeshadow separately and they attempt to confiscate that one as well as my creamy based eyeshadow base:( hate that....

You'd almost think they have a conspiracy against ballroom dancers? We had a discussion a while back about us being on the HSD list of terrorists.

[dancinrina]

You'd almost think they have a conspiracy against ballroom dancers? We had a discussion a while back about us being on the HSD list of terrorists.

I'm telling you... it's the fake tans.
:grin:

[Standarddancer]

I'm telling you... it's the fake tans.
:grin:

lol...fake tan make us look like terriosts?

[dancinrina]

lol...fake tan make us look like terriosts?

I was going more along the lines of using expired DHA to look like aliens (took the green/orange story from the other thread and ran with it... sorry if it didn't quite pan-out).

[Standarddancer]

You'd almost think they have a conspiracy against ballroom dancers? We had a discussion a while back about us being on the HSD list of terrorists.

oh tell me about it...last time our bag went thru security check, it beeped again I just freaked out (that beautiful purple shimmering shadow was discontinued and I love that)...it turned out they just found my partner's shaving cream more than 3 oz so they just took that:p, I smiled at them and said a big "thank you" and glad not any of my pricey makeup collections and they must feel me strange being so happy got stuff confiscated...

[Standarddancer]

I was going more along the lines of using expired DHA to look like aliens (took the green/orange story from the other thread and ran with it... sorry if it didn't quite pan-out).

lol...if it turns green we won't use it...I can imagine they'll be checking every single piece of our luggage if any of us shows up green at security check point :D

[njdancegirl]

Just read a letter to the editor in current DanceBeat from Sandra Fortuna on this...my understanding was that she was appalled by the lack of competitors (mostly pro) at the recent North American Dancesport comp in Cherry Hill as she thought that title sounded better/more important than some of the others that dancers choose to attend instead. However as we discussed on this thread...do (most) of the titles mean anything anyway? Her point was that in the rest of the world that title may sound more impressive on a resume.

Did anyone else read or have any reaction?

[Joe]

So...basically what she's saying is that the pros should have been falling all over themselves to take the "North American" title, even though it doesn't really mean that much as far as being a real all-encompassing North American title? Isn't that kind of contributing the to issue of title inflation?

[njdancegirl]

So...basically what she's saying is that the pros should have been falling all over themselves to take the "North American" title, even though it doesn't really mean that much as far as being a real all-encompassing North American title? Isn't that kind of contributing the to issue of title inflation?

In my opinion...yes. The comp was very nicely done and very friendly atmosphere, but not so large...competitors like competition, not flashy titles I suppose.

Found her letter in DanceBeat also on her website:

STUNNED BY THE SHUN

The North American Dance Championships sounds like a big deal. It should be a big deal. The professional Latin and standard were both just semifinals. The smooth and rhythm were both straight finals. So, where were the rest of the competitors? What are they thinking when they choose which event(s) to enter? Is there motivation to make the North American Dance Championship less than it should be? Are there dancers out there belittling its worth? I can understand wanting to be sure to experience the excitement of participating in a competition, "(insert a city borough or a state here) Dance Championship," that is sure to have very large rounds, but I can't understand not wanting to experience the gratification of winning an impressive title,"North American Dance Championship." If a really dedicated competitive couple wants to think about their future, the choice is simple: do two competitions in a row, but don't miss the event that could crown you with a very important title.

Let's say that you, a quality professional competitor, get a good dance demonstration job and you have the MC announce your impressive list of accomplishments in the ballroom field and you're very proud of the fact that you won the "(insert a city borough or a state here) Dance Championships." The next couple comes on to perform and they are introduced as the "North American Dance Champions." Is the audience more impressed with your title as the "(insert a city borough or a state here) Dance Champions" or with the other couple's title as the "North American Dance Champions." I guess it depends on whether you intend to stay in the small world of dance where we have an awareness of current "prestige" or if you plan to venture out into the world of the general public who are going to think that a "North American Dance Champion" must be something indeed compared to the "(insert city borough or a state here) Dance Champion."

I am STUNNED that the North American Championships were essentially SHUNNED by so many top competitors. Am I the one with intellectual limitations because I can't see any good reason for the competitors to miss this event? Who advised, supported, encouraged or tolerated the decisions of the competitors to forgo the North American Championships? Be practical. No matter with whom you have a bone to pick, the organizers of this event did an excellent job of providing atmosphere, prize money, a great audience and a bonafide, impressive, and valuable title.

[tanya_the_dancer]

Well, considering how little the rest of the world cares about ballroom, I don't think an impressive-sounding title would matter to the general public.

[mamboqueen]

...."I am STUNNED that the North American Championships were essentially SHUNNED by so many top competitors. Am I the one with intellectual limitations because I can't see any good reason for the competitors to miss this event? Who advised, supported, encouraged or tolerated the decisions of the competitors to forgo the North American Championships? Be practical. No matter with whom you have a bone to pick, the organizers of this event did an excellent job of providing atmosphere, prize money, a great audience and a bonafide, impressive, and valuable title."

Well, maybe there are good reasons why people don't go and they're just not getting it. Politics? I really have no clue...is this the competition that is just one week after Manhattan? If they have so much to offer, then seemingly there is a reason why top pros aren't going...and it probably behooves them to find out -- if they want it to be successful in the future. IMO by suggesting other people have intellectual limitations as being the reason for not attending is probably not likely to make it more attractive. Perhaps I'm just misunderstanding what the writer is saying tho??

[dancepro]

STUNNED BY THE SHUN


Let's say that you, a quality professional competitor, get a good dance demonstration job and you have the MC announce your impressive list of accomplishments in the ballroom field and you're very proud of the fact that you won the "(insert a city borough or a state here) Dance Championships." The next couple comes on to perform and they are introduced as the "North American Dance Champions." Is the audience more impressed with your title as the "(insert a city borough or a state here) Dance Champions" or with the other couple's title as the "North American Dance Champions." I guess it depends on whether you intend to stay in the small world of dance where we have an awareness of current "prestige" or if you plan to venture out into the world of the general public who are going to think that a "North American Dance Champion" must be something indeed compared to the "(insert city borough or a state here) Dance Champion."

I must agree that big titles are very important if you want to go out into the real world to get sponsors, shows and other business. Big name sponsors wants big name titles even if you know (being an insider in the business) that the competition as such was a small competition. Most big name sponsors are trying to sound impressive and the title "North American Dance Champion" does sound impressive to the outside world. Of cause this is only important if you want sponsors, shows and other business from the outside world. Most couples don't know every little detail of what the future will bring, therefore having titles like that on the resume will not harm at all, it could mean getting what you want with ease or not. If you later are opening a studio, again this title can be used to get outside sponsors and support. It is about thinking and planing for the future. I have big titles that are from small competitions, but they have helped me get attention in support of my project. Very good point...:)

Dancepro

[njdancegirl]

I must agree that big titles are very important if you want to go out into the real world to get sponsors, shows and other business. Big name sponsors wants big name titles even if you know (being an insider in the business) that the competition as such was a small competition. Most big name sponsors are trying to sound impressive and the title "North American Dance Champion" does sound impressive to the outside world. Of cause this is only important if you want sponsors, shows and other business from the outside world. Most couples don't know every little detail of what the future will bring, therefore having titles like that on the resume will not harm at all, it could mean getting what you want with ease or not. If you later are opening a studio, again this title can be used to get outside sponsors and support. It is about thinking and planing for the future. I have big titles that are from small competitions, but they have helped me get attention in support of my project. Very good point...:)

Dancepro[/left]

You make a good point, Dancepro. Guess I'm looking at it from the inside rather than the outside.

But I agree with MQ that maybe more needs to be looked at within the specific comp in general to make it more appealing besides the title...calendar being very important with it starting only 4 days after Manhattan ended.

[Josh]

oh my...these age category chart makes my head spin...lol...can't NDCA make a unified age category for all comps to make both teacher and students life easier?


With regard to A1, A2, A3, etc...

I believe the context of the discussion with respect to Pro/Am events has been events such as scholarships and championships. I'm not aware of any off the top of my head that do much more of a breakdown than A, B, and C per level and style. IOW, you aren't likely to find an A2 Closed Silver Standard scholarship. It will most always just be A or B (or C). With multi-dance events or championships, yes, and with single freestyles, always, but any more than that and the prize money available for competitors becomes too divided and not enough people are competing in the event.

[Larinda McRaven]

Well, considering how little the rest of the world cares about ballroom, I don't think an impressive-sounding title would matter to the general public.

Correct. Most dancers don't care what the outside world thinks anyway. If we did we wouldn't walk around the color of oopma loompas half of our life.

But with regard to this specific competition.... it is a former ISTD event. The competition suffers not because the current owners have done something wrong, but they they instead bought a faltering competition and are attempting to breathe life into it. This was only their second year with it. When the ISTD ran the events successfully many many years ago, there were far far fewer competitions for competitors pick and choose from. And all three of the ISTD competitions did not survive the transition to MegaCompWorld very well. They were each sold off and moved, with the exceptiopn of this one which remains traditionally in the same hotel as the NAC glory days.

There were days when this was THE competiton to go to. Now we have at least 5or 6 THE competitions to go to. And when competitiors in the west are able to do at least 15-20 competitions a year without ever having to drive more than 4 hours... it is hard to expect them to fly 3000 miles, especially right after they did it the week before. We suffer the same problem here in the east. Our choices are immense and we barely have to leave our back yard.

I remember when Donald told me the date of the competition. I physically winced and said "OOh, tough date!" Being so soon after Manhattan, and the same weekend as the Suvorovs competition I knew it would struggle to get on its feet. But with good managment they can find a way to pump it up.

[dancepro]

But I agree with MQ that maybe more needs to be looked at within the specific comp in general to make it more appealing besides the title...calendar being very important with it starting only 4 days after Manhattan ended.

I can totally understand that dates, quality and other appealing points of the competition is important. But it only takes one time to dance and win the title to have it on the resume. I only danced the competition, that I won the big title from, once. The competition didn't improve and didn't grow so we never went back. I will however always have that title on my resume and it has helped me get me a big sponsor.

Dancepro

[Chris Stratton]

If dancers are willing to be evaluated by the impression they make in person and forgo opportunities to collect impressive-sounding resume filler, I don't exactly see how that's a bad thing for the dance world.

In terms of personal meaning or predictive value, the meaning of winning a competition comes from the collection of other couples who entered, not from the name.

[mamboqueen]

I wouldn't mind doing this comp next year...but I'm just one of many students...and can't foot the bill myself if no one else can go.

[Katarzyna]

Well I think with NA comp, I have heard from many pro couples that the comp was avoided due to some result scandals last year and something to do with judging last year... and I heard from a couple couples that it was more of a boycott.. but well didn't get into details as to why and what happened. So doesnt sound that it has anything to do with titles and it being small. it was not small last year it only became small this year ... somethign happened to provoke that change obviously.

[mamboqueen]

ehhh,..but how do you know that that is not just sour grapes over a disappointing result? I mean, it just seems somewhat farfetched that you would have an entire judging panel with a common agenda...if you were to believe in conspiracy theories to begin with. I mean...how much different was the judging panel here than anywhere else? That just seems odd to me - although I'm not doubting someone may have felt this way.

[Katarzyna]

Well I dont know what it was but have heard that from nummerous couples.. maybe the comp became half size because half of the couples had sour grapes from last year.. dunno.. but couples that were there didnt show up again..

[Katarzyna]

They didnt say common agenda of judges or anythign like that.. they only said.. STRANGE results

[Katarzyna]

Just looked at last year results and dont see anything strange.. but dont know

[mamboqueen]

sorry...did not mean to put words in your mouth; kind of just made a leap because strange results wouldn't really come from one or two judges out of five or seven (I would think). But, now that you say it, I actually prefer to see strange results every now and again becuase I find predictible ones a bit monotnous.

[Katarzyna]

no worries ..

[mamboqueen]

If
In terms of personal meaning or predictive value, the meaning of winning a competition comes from the collection of other couples who entered, not from the name.

I agree with this. But then how do they get the top couples there?

[njdancegirl]

I agree with this. But then how do they get the top couples there?

Exactly - why are Manhattan, Ohio, USDSC, Millenium, etc so large and so popular for dancers all around the country and most others are considered "local" comps? Are there just too many now?

[latingal]

Exactly - why are Manhattan, Ohio, USDSC, Millenium, etc so large and so popular for dancers all around the country and most others are considered "local" comps?

I would guess from a pro-am perspective, that certain comps like the ones above have a reputation for attracting the top competitors in the divisions and/or have a title that might indeed "mean something" (partly because you have so much competition at the comp).

If you dance pro-am, you know how very expensive it is to do a comp, especially one that you have to travel to with your pro. Most of us do not have money trees, so you choose carefully which comps you do.

[Larinda McRaven]

In terms of personal meaning or predictive value, the meaning of winning a competition comes from the collection of other couples who entered, not from the name.

Yes and no. It may matter to someone personally that they won comp A because "everybody was there". But in a few years when all of that blurs and all you have are titles... it doesn't/can't really matter who was there. The tropies are still shiny.

[Larinda McRaven]

According to Donald the NAC this year had 10% increase of pro-am entries over lastyear. The size of the pro events were the almost the same, only one pro event was smaller. So it did not drop in numbers dramatically.

As a Pro, I had many different factors helping me decide which comps to pick. Location, Organizers, Judging Panel (those two are often closely associated), Size, Prize Money, Date, Pro-am Possibilties, Stategic Attack or Avoidance....

[samina]

I would guess from a pro-am perspective, that certain comps like the ones above have a reputation for attracting the top competitors in the divisions and/or have a title that might indeed "mean something" (partly because you have so much competition at the comp).

If you dance pro-am, you know how very expensive it is to do a comp, especially one that you have to travel to with your pro. Most of us do not have money trees, so you choose carefully which comps you do.

It was a smallish comp from a pro-am perspective, as well... although some good competition.

Do pro-amers really care about those "titles"?

[latingal]

Do pro-amers really care about those "titles"?

I can only speak for myself, but it's pretty cool to have the already established NDCA pro-am "national" or "world" titles if the competition shows up. It's not the same as a pro having a title like that, but it's something to shoot for and be proud of within the US dance scene.

[samina]

I can only speak for myself, but it's pretty cool to have the already established NDCA pro-am "national" or "world" titles if the competition shows up. It's not the same as a pro having a title like that, but it's something to shoot for and be proud of within the US dance scene.

I agree...to be national or world open champion would be a huge achievement. Also to win manhattan or what...hotlanta, millenium...what else...embassy? Cool.

The rest...just building blocks to the biggees, I suppose. What besides OSB & USDSC would you secretly brag on winning? :)

[fascination]

all titles are nice if the competition shows up...beyond that, aside from winning consistently placing in the top comps is also pretty cool...consistently getting better is the coolest ;) ....so many variables...I think it is all personal

[latingal]

What besides OSB & USDSC would you secretly brag on winning? :)

For me the "biggies" that attract national pro-am attendance; besides the two above, Emerald, Millennium, Manhattan, and maybe Embassy and Holiday Dance Classic. Of course it may be division specific.

[latingal]

Agree with fascination, the thing to be proudest of is becoming the dancer you can be and continously improving your art and skill (but a well deserved title is pretty cool *grin*).

[fascination]

I'll have to take your word for it...for a little while longer ;)

[Joe]

I think Larinda's post #71 hit the nail on the head. These things used to be much bigger back in the day. Comps need to keep marketing and updating or they'll be left behind--can't trade on your past glory. As far as the title of the comp, it's really not all that important (right now), since people know it's a small comp. Blackpool isn't prestigious because of the comp's title, it's prestigious because everyone (in the dance world, at least) knows that the best competition in the world shows up there.

[dancepro]

If dancers are willing to be evaluated by the impression they make in person and forgo opportunities to collect impressive-sounding resume filler, I don't exactly see how that's a bad thing for the dance world.

In terms of personal meaning or predictive value, the meaning of winning a competition comes from the collection of other couples who entered, not from the name.

It totally depends on what you want to use you dancing for and how much money you have to use on the competitions. If you are using the competitions to later use as advertisement for a studio situation that wants to cater to the public, titles would help. If you are trying to attract big sponsors, you need to provide then with titles and information they can use to their advantage. Most big sponsors are not in the dance world and are not servicing the dance world only, therefore they need to have something that the everyday person "thinks" is impressive.

I think it would be great to get big sponsors into the dance world, but if we do not give them what they need, it is not possible. I think most sports and/or arts worlds welcome an influx of outside funding.

But...hey if a couple have enough money to take all the lessons, dance all competition, buy all the shoes, buy all dresses/suits and other accessories they want, there is absolutely no reason to think of the funding the outside world could provide. I do however not think many couples have a money tree like that in their back yard.

Dancepro

[Standarddancer]

You make a good point, Dancepro. Guess I'm looking at it from the inside rather than the outside.

But I agree with MQ that maybe more needs to be looked at within the specific comp in general to make it more appealing besides the title...calendar being very important with it starting only 4 days after Manhattan ended.

I also agree that dancepro have an excellent point of gaining titles with ease. However, nowaday, with the help of computer data system, anyone, anybody have the access to dancesportinfo sort of data base, big sponsors aren't stupid, anybody could just do a search for by using the dancers name and easily check out the # of couples participated in such and such "prestigious" events. In old days, probably outsiders could image some comps like North America could be hundreds of couples, but with computer, they can be easily found out only a final or semi-final.

[ChaChaMama]

I also agree that dancepro have an excellent point of gaining titles with ease. However, nowaday, with the help of computer data system, anyone, anybody have the access to dancesportinfo sort of data base, big sponsors aren't stupid, anybody could just do a search for by using the dancers name and easily check out the # of couples participated in such and such "prestigious" events. In old days, probably outsiders could image some comps like North America could be hundreds of couples, but with computer, they can be easily found out only a final or semi-final.

True enough, Standarddancer, but to give dancerpro's argument its full due, the cynic in me would also add another important fact: they might not do so!

A lot of employers/sponsors etc. want to advertise that they employ/sponsor people who sound impressive...sometimes even when there isn't a lot of substance behind those credentials.

A recent example I came across: a very expensive private school in my area employs someone who works at my college. They list him as a "Professor of Music," with his title capitalized like that. Well, he does teach (profess?) at the college level, so in some sense, he is a professor. His rank, however, is either lecturer or senior lecturer, which means he is basically someone brought in to teach specialty courses as an adjunct. He ranks below ALL of the tenure-stream ranks of assistant professor, associate professor, and professor. (He is not even ELIGIBLE to move up the ranks to Professor, as he is not in a tenure-track position. He also doesn't have a Ph.D, which most professors do). This information is easily found on the internet, yet I think most people considering that private school would just think "Oh, wow, they have a Professor teaching the children music!" Smart--if slightly deceptive--advertising.

Mind you, I'm NOT advocating in favor of such deception AT ALL, just noting that marketing people have a penchant for impressive sounding titles.

[SPratt74]

Mind you, I'm NOT advocating in favor of such deception AT ALL, just noting that marketing people have a penchant for impressive sounding titles.



Lol... you had a very cute post, but you also made some good points as I've seen that kind of thing done.

[Laura]

True enough, Standarddancer, but to give dancerpro's argument its full due, the cynic in me would also add another important fact: they might not do so!
Heck, look at how Ohio Star Ball is presented on "America's Ballroom Challenge." Every year they mention how it started from "hundreds of couples" or something like that...well yeah, there are hundreds of people competing at Ohio, but you're only getting a few dozen couples in the Open Pro events that end up on the TV show.

[reb]

Mind you, I'm NOT advocating in favor of such deception AT ALL, just noting that marketing people have a penchant for impressive sounding titles.



Just missing the modifier . . . "unethical"

Some operate with data, context, and perspective, some with hype.

[Larinda McRaven]

Well, almost everyone teaching around me is a "Champion" of some country. I don't even bother to express amazement anymore since what they don't tell you is most of the titles are "youth ten-dance" something or other... and the person is 40 now, and did not dance for 20 years in between.

So dealing from inside the industry "knowing" someone is a far more valuable tool than reading a resume bloated with filler. But I can see that dealing with people outside the industry, when all they have to go by is what you give them, having a resume full of impressive sounding titles is a good thing.

[Joe]

Dontcha love hyperbole! ;)

[Larinda McRaven]

Where?

[emeralddancer]

I use to be in amazement .... but then I realize they are real people with real issues too .... However when I see Igor and Polina dance .... I sit there in utter awe. They have a grace, passion and poise about them. PLUS they are nice as heck!

They are the only ones I know with titles. I have not delved THAT far into this industry to get caught up with it.

I am more like, please teach me anything you know. :)

[Larinda McRaven]

.... I sit there in utter awe. They have a grace, passion and poise about them. PLUS they are nice as heck!

To me that is one of the best titles!

[Standarddancer]

Heck, look at how Ohio Star Ball is presented on "America's Ballroom Challenge." Every year they mention how it started from "hundreds of couples" or something like that...well yeah, there are hundreds of people competing at Ohio, but you're only getting a few dozen couples in the Open Pro events that end up on the TV show.

oh yes, definitely, some times dance articles reporting # of total entries in 1st paragraph and how prestigious is such event, like hundreds or even thousands of entries for the entire comp, and so and so won 1st place of open pro **** (whateve category), so unknown outsider might thinking so and so were 1st place of hundreds or thousands of competitors.

[DanceMentor]

What I was taught was to "buy what you need, not what is on sale". I feel the best teachers have to be sought out. They will rarely come to you.

[Joe]

Where?
Not you, silly, :D just talking about all the people who list their "champion of" status for every small event, or ABC mentioning "hundred of couples."

[Standarddancer]

I think it's better to choose a comps where dancers could get the most exprience for their current level or somehow helpful to their dancing versus considering the "title" assuming you have limited amount of funds and time to commit yourselves in comps and must choose carefully when/where to compete. Guess the approaches would be so much different for pros who want coaching or show business. I don't blame those who listed all their titles on resumes even for very small events as long as whatever they say is true, although at times these titles could be misleading to outsiders, well all business....

[QPO]

So True!

What I was taught was to "buy what you need, not what is on sale". I feel the best teachers have to be sought out. They will rarely come to you.