So You Think You Can Dance... Argentine Tango (Fantasia)

[Me]

Well, Dmitry Chaplin was responsible for this piece of choreography and I must say... this is much classier and much more intricate than what I've seen pass for AT in the past on this show. Sure, it might not be the most original choreography for show tango, but what we have here is show tango, and not some BS choreography that is called show tango. Thank you, Dmitry! I think the dancers did a very good job as well, considering the level of difficulty. :)

Q_UaQI8quXc

[samina]

thanks for sharing that, Me...enjoyed it. for two non-tango dancers, i thought that was very impressive, for such short preparation time.

dang...that chica's got some nice high kicks.

[LucyDiamond]

I loved that tango. It's fun to see it again. Thanks for sharing.

[Ampster]

Well, Dmitry Chaplin was responsible for this piece of choreography and I must say... this is much classier and much more intricate than what I've seen pass for AT in the past on this show. Sure, it might not be the most original choreography for show tango, but what we have here is show tango, and not some BS choreography that is called show tango. Thank you, Dmitry! I think the dancers did a very good job as well, considering the level of difficulty. :)


I agree whole heartedly, Me! The previous "Argentine Tangos" on SYTYCD have been exactly that... BS choreography labeled as show tango. That's actually why the AT peeps are up in arms (on other parts of this forum) when commenting on the "Argentine Tango" numbers previously.

Dmitry did do a very good job this time. Its the closest to a real show tango (Fantasia) number this show has produced. Its not perfect, but its a helluvalot better than its predecessors.

[bordertangoman]

Nice choreography but not AT;
I mean the man standing there there while the woman does shines!

well lawdy hush ma mouth.

[_malakawa_]

I'm not sharing your great expressions. To many lifts. :cool:

nice routine, but i don't see much AT in there.

[Ampster]

Nice choreography but not AT;
I mean the man standing there there while the woman does shines!


I'm not sharing your great expressions. To many lifts. :cool:

nice routine, but i don't see much AT in there.

I agree that the choroegraphy wasn't all that great. BUT... Our sentiments were that, it was closest to an Argentine Tango routine that they have come up with so far.

The "look and feel"m is almost there. Considering their track record, this was good.

Here are examples of the BS choreography we (I) was referring to: Ivan_&_Alison (http://youtube.com/watch?v=bZYgrEqQxjE), Danny_&_Sara (http://youtube.com/watch?v=w036Gmzr5bg&feature=related)

[Me]

I agree that the choroegraphy wasn't all that great. BUT... Our sentiments were that, it was closest to an Argentine Tango routine that they have come up with so far.

The "look and feel"m is almost there. Considering their track record, this was good.

Here are examples of the BS choreography we (I) was referring to: Ivan_&_Alison (http://youtube.com/watch?v=bZYgrEqQxjE), Danny_&_Sara (http://youtube.com/watch?v=w036Gmzr5bg&feature=related)

EXACTLY. Perhaps it will never be perfect (and even if it were, it would not please everybody in the tango world) but this is the closest to an accurate representation of any genre of tango that I've seen to date on this show.

The Danny and Sara routine was amazingly awful. Watch that one, and then watch the one posted in this thread. If that isn't progress, I don't know what is!

[Me]

I'm not sharing your great expressions. To many lifts. :cool:

nice routine, but i don't see much AT in there.

I would agree with you if the dancers were sticking to what the dance is called on this show, "Argentine Tango." What they are actually dancing is fantasia or "show" tango, and often the complaint about this genre is "not enough tango" or "too many lifts" or "no connection, just flash." So, it is tango, but it isn't... oh dear. To discuss this would open up a HUGE can of worms!

[_malakawa_]

I would agree with you if the dancers were sticking to what the dance is called on this show, "Argentine Tango." What they are actually dancing is fantasia or "show" tango, and often the complaint about this genre is "not enough tango" or "too many lifts" or "no connection, just flash." So, it is tango, but it isn't... oh dear. To discuss this would open up a HUGE can of worms!

probably. but i still don't like it.

i watched that show couple of times, but some routine that i saw was :confused:

i didn't "know" which dance they are dancing. (ok, i knew, but when you put salsa steps in cha cha, i can only say that that choreographer is :rolleyes: )

and i agree with your last sentence. :cool:

[Peaches]

Better, I guess. But even for Fantasia I still think it lacked tango. More, perhaps, than the Danny & Sara one, but no more than the Ivan & Allison one.

...and, chickies, CLOSE YOUR FREAKIN' LEGS!!!! What's with the bowlegged dancing???

[bordertangoman]

Well I thought the Ivan & Alison one was better, marginally

but dancing like ducks Peaches is right keep your feet together and

[RANT DELETED DUE TO EXCESSIVE USE OF EXPLETIVES]

[dancinrina]

It's funny because they're all supposed to be dancers with dancers' habits - I don't see it - Every single dance teacher I've ever had would have a contusion watching this. This bowlegged "I kick my legs up as high as I can and hope it impresses" thing really isn't working for me. The new one is marginally better but, still, too many high kicks and crazy lifts for my taste - isn't tango supposed to be close and intimate?

[bordertangoman]

I agree dancinrina

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhhVH0eguqs this is how real pros dance -too much foot work on his part IMO

or this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lSrf9G6530

but this couple I adore - it helps thats they're dancing to Pugliese

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRFsGSjO78E&feature=related

[Me]

I completely agree with you guys about technical issues but... did these dancers have a week to learn tango? Something like this? As a renegade ballerina myself, I shudder to think what it would look like if I danced AT on national television after only having a week.

I think the dancers are largely at the mercy of the choreographers at this point, unless I am misunderstanding something about this show...

[dancinrina]

You have to understand, despite having only a week to learn this in - that's exactly what they have - an ENTIRE week. That's all they do for 7 days/8-9 hours a day. While that is tiring and difficult, they are dancers - they have the basics of dance down so it's just getting the movement and styling. After all, they're not truly learning AT - separate moves, leads, follows, etc - they're learning a routine.

[Peaches]

I have no real problem with the dancers. A week is nothing. I just don't care for the choreography--that's really all my comment was about.

Except the bowlegged part. That drives me nuts. I wish someone had corrected that, because it just looks bad. I feel like being unreasonable about that one little thing. :)

[Me]

Well I agree... but again, I disagree. :)

These are trained dancers, but the muscle groups and methodology are quite different.

The bowlegs are yes, an eyesore. As AT dancers, we are taught from day one to keep those knees in... but on the flipside, ballerinas are taught to turn those knees out!

My point being, these experienced dancers will have to fight possibly years of prior training, to unlearn practiced habit that is now engrained in the learned muscle memory, things the dancers are not even conscious of... in one week. I do not watch this show - Does anybody know if this is ever addressed? The task of simultaneous learning and unlearning.

[_malakawa_]

You have to understand, despite having only a week to learn this in - that's exactly what they have - an ENTIRE week. That's all they do for 7 days/8-9 hours a day. While that is tiring and difficult, they are dancers - they have the basics of dance down so it's just getting the movement and styling. After all, they're not truly learning AT - separate moves, leads, follows, etc - they're learning a routine.


:p

totally agree with you.

[Me]

Hmm. I need some clarity. I think I must be confused.

Some of this discussion seems to border on saying experienced theatrical dancers should be able to master (or at least, mimic) AT technique within a routine in one week. Is that the argument? If so, it is definitely different from what has been said by others in past discussions here - How many times have ballroom dance schools been blasted for assuming they can master/teach AT because they've studied so many other dances? What happened to the "You must spend at least two years walking, grasshoppah" school of thought for mastering tango?

Am I way off the mark here? You can tell me. I'm a big girl. :)

[Peaches]

Nope, not what I'm meaning to imply.

A week certainly isn't enough time for much of anything. On that point, I give them massive credit. And if they're having to overcome prior dance training (which I didn't realize), they're working from even more of a handicap.

I'm just saying I don't much care for the choreo, to varying degrees.

(Well, and being crotchety about the bowlegged stuff. I understand they have other things to think about, and other training to overcome. It just stands out at me unpleasantly. And I feel like being crotchety! :) )

[Beto]

I completely agree with you guys about technical issues but... did these dancers have a week to learn tango? Something like this? As a renegade ballerina myself, I shudder to think what it would look like if I danced AT on national television after only having a week.

I think the dancers are largely at the mercy of the choreographers at this point, unless I am misunderstanding something about this show...
Less than a week. The dancers get about 5 hours (split over 2 days) with the choreographers and then use the remaining days until Monday's taping to practice on their own. They learn their new dance style Thursday night, learn with with the choreographer(s) on Friday and Saturday and normally do the tech rehearsal on Sunday.

[_malakawa_]

Less than a week. The dancers get about 5 hours (split over 2 days) with the choreographers and then use the remaining days until Monday's taping to practice on their own. They learn their new dance style Thursday night, learn with with the choreographer(s) on Friday and Saturday and normally do the tech rehearsal on Sunday.

if you already are a dancer, and they are, no metter which type of dance, you'll need 3 hours to learn the steps.

everything else is practicing how you look on the floor.

i think they have enough time to practice. :cool:

[Beto]

if you already are a dancer, and they are, no metter which type of dance, you'll need 3 hours to learn the steps.

everything else is practicing how you look on the floor.

i think they have enough time to practice. :cool:
I never said that they didn't have enough time. ;)

[chachachacat]

As AT dancers, we are taught from day one to keep those knees in... but on the flipside, ballerinas are taught to turn those knees out!

My point being, [/B] these experienced dancers will have to fight possibly years of prior training, to unlearn practiced habit that is now ingrained in the learned muscle memory, things the dancers are not even conscious of... in one week.

Does anybody know if this is ever addressed? The task of simultaneous learning and unlearning.

Excellent point! Thank you! It's extremely hard to "unlearn" turnout, which is so ingrained in your muscle memory.

No, they have never talked about "unlearning." It takes constant drilling, constant reminders. And it could take years.

[Peaches]

...oooh...didn't mean to open a can of worms like this...

Sorry, all.

[Me]

...oooh...didn't mean to open a can of worms like this...

Sorry, all.

I don't think you said anything bad, or wrong? I don't think you have anything to apologize for. :)

It looks to me on this thread that we have several people from different dance backgrounds posting their opinions, which is really, really helpful (at least, to me). I like reading it all.

[bastet]

Excellent point! Thank you! It's extremely hard to "unlearn" turnout, which is so ingrained in your muscle memory.

No, they have never talked about "unlearning." It takes constant drilling, constant reminders. And it could take years.


COmeplete agreement on that. Unlearning (or, maybe...consciously putting aside) dance training that isn't relevant to the dance you are dancing at that moment is REALLY hard and takes a lot of work, and conscious effort.

It makes me wonder if they've really ever thought about that in this show.

I think it may be a little easier to get away with it and "cover you tracks" a little, if you will, in some of the dances, maybe....and that's only a maybe...but in others, like AT...nope....it has a distinct walk for example, and none of the videos I've seen thus far have even THAT aspect correct (little to no leg extension, stepping from straight leg to straight leg like a latin dancer...and other things like Peaches said)...

Partly I can't stand obvious show tango anyway, but forced show tango generally makes me cringe even worse. :rolleyes:

[bordertangoman]

What do you think of these people.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKuSty0nX9k&feature=related

I think he's skilled but I hate his dancing but I can't say way.

its just so ..so clinical like how a clever robot would dance.

[bastet]

What do you think of these people.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKuSty0nX9k&feature=related

I think he's skilled but I hate his dancing but I can't say way.

its just so ..so clinical like how a clever robot would dance.

hmmm... interesting. I liked what they were doing...the movements and I like her footwork. I didn't really like his hand or head placement for himself. That may be part of what is causing you not to like him...

[bastet]

well- how about this couple...do you feel the same way or different watching them?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zwA2um5rq0

[Taniquel]

What do you think of these people.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKuSty0nX9k&feature=related

I think he's skilled but I hate his dancing but I can't say way.

its just so ..so clinical like how a clever robot would dance.

To me, he looks like he learned his steps very well and is executing them instead of actually dancing. Something definitely seems to be missing, be it emotion or connection with his partner, I'm not really sure.

Also, perhaps because of the very small steps, he give me the impression of being shy or even hesitant. And overall, he doesn't seem to be doing much. But I am not a man and perhaps I don't fully appreciate what he is actually doing...

One thing I am (almost) sure of, I would probably find it hard to dance with him.

[Taniquel]

well- how about this couple...do you feel the same way or different watching them?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zwA2um5rq0

Personally, I like these two better and I think it is all because of the man's attitude. (I think I really need a new partner because I am starting to obsess!)

[jhpark]

don't like the way he holds his left hand. isn't that uncomfortable for the follower? or not necessarily?

[bastet]

does it help a little to see it in the lighting they actually danced in rather than the altered video lighting?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoVdl1fuwto&feature=related

[bastet]

don't like the way he holds his left hand. isn't that uncomfortable for the follower? or not necessarily?


it doesn't have to be...but it can be....I think unless someone actually SHOWS a lead how to do this properly and they just try and mimic the look... it ends up hurting...(I'm speaking from experience on the follow side on this). :)

Ok- I know I am being a little picky...but I also think another thing that is making him look a little cold or mechanical is the huge 1970's glasses....ditch the geek wear....These are mostly aesthetic things that don't have much to do with his actual leading ability, only his perceived leading and dancing...but, as with any other dance, how you are perceived is a pretty big deal, no matter how it feels.

I think he just needs a littel makeover, mostly...and bring his head back up over his shoulders....

[bastet]

Personally, I like these two better and I think it is all because of the man's attitude. (I think I really need a new partner because I am starting to obsess!)


Yes- Shastro has an "ease of gait" that I like that I think you are seeing. I've begun to think that has a little to do with the personality of the dancer.

[dancinrina]

A kind of beginner question here.... Why do the women look like they're about to fall over or as if the guy is dragging them across the floor instead of them owning their own weight? I can appreciate that this may be stylistic and hard to do but, I really don't like that look....

[bastet]

Which video were you talking about....the one of the Italians? Where he really did drag her across the floor? :)

As for the others, or the tango embrace in general...it is different from what frame you may use in ballroom. You hold yourself differently and focus your axis differently. (and i can tell you it takes a lot of effort to unlearn the one for the other) But I don't see them as leaning over or falling over. That "lean" you see is, to some degree, an illusion of how they couple focuses their weight and which part of their bodies are focusing towards one another. The focus is not in the pelvis, it's in the solar plexus and abdominal region.

[Me]

A kind of beginner question here.... Why do the women look like they're about to fall over or as if the guy is dragging them across the floor instead of them owning their own weight? I can appreciate that this may be stylistic and hard to do but, I really don't like that look....

This is where you begin to explore the many, many different styles of tango. Different embraces, different weight distribution... Some people will tell you something different, and some people will tell you "X is wrong. Y is right." or "Y is better than X." "This is true tango... that is not true tango" ETC. I think the key is to learn them all and appreciate them all.

What you are seeing is what is called "apilado" style of tango dancing. Probably an easy way to illustrate what you are seeing is with this picture of Gavito and Marcela in an extreme apilado pose:

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b268/iloveseverus/gavitoemarcela5.jpg?t=1217529982

Think about how you take two pieces of plywood and lean them up against one another, forming a pyramid. Neither piece is about to fall over - Each is perfectly balanced by the other.

[Peaches]

What do you think of these people.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKuSty0nX9k&feature=related

I think he's skilled but I hate his dancing but I can't say way.

its just so ..so clinical like how a clever robot would dance.Huh. I liked a lot of what he lead, I liked her footwork, didn't notice his head being overly interesting, and the hand didn't bother me.

I think I just didn't care for his interpretation. I understand that a good part of it was rhythmic, and think he did a good enough job with it...but I didn't see any dynamicism. (Is that even a freakin' word?!?!) No contrast, no change, is what I'm trying to say. I'd have like to see him change things up a bit--the steps, the size of the steps, the timing, his body action, use some rise and fall.

...of course, I say all this knowing that i don't lead and can't dance half as well, so make of it what you will...I should hope to be that good...

[Peaches]

well- how about this couple...do you feel the same way or different watching them?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zwA2um5rq0I think I much preferred this. I preferred the phrasing to the music, at the very least. Also there seems to be a much "deeper" connection between the two of them.

[Peaches]

A kind of beginner question here.... Why do the women look like they're about to fall over or as if the guy is dragging them across the floor instead of them owning their own weight? I can appreciate that this may be stylistic and hard to do but, I really don't like that look....As others have said, it has to do with the styling of the embrace and where/how the connection happens.

To disagree a bit with Me, I don't see either being an apilado embrace, where neither partner "owns their own weight," as you put it, but are instead counterbalanced. In what I saw, they are actually supporting their own weight, and the men aren't dragging at all. As opposed to in ballroom where the girl (apparently--I'm just going on what came up in another thread) starts moving her center away from the man when she first feels the impulse to move, in AT the girl actively keeps her center towards and into the man. The leg generally moves first, while the center stays relatively stationary, and the weight transfer is a bit "delayed." So you're probably seeing her legs out behind her which is giving that impression.

But, to be sure, the girls do (mostly) have their own balance under their own control. It's just a matter of how it's used.

[Me]

As others have said, it has to do with the styling of the embrace and where/how the connection happens.

To disagree a bit with Me, I don't see either being an apilado embrace, where neither partner "owns their own weight," as you put it, but are instead counterbalanced. In what I saw, they are actually supporting their own weight, and the men aren't dragging at all. As opposed to in ballroom where the girl (apparently--I'm just going on what came up in another thread) starts moving her center away from the man when she first feels the impulse to move, in AT the girl actively keeps her center towards and into the man. The leg generally moves first, while the center stays relatively stationary, and the weight transfer is a bit "delayed." So you're probably seeing her legs out behind her which is giving that impression.

But, to be sure, the girls do (mostly) have their own balance under their own control. It's just a matter of how it's used.


Oooh... you're right!

Next time, I'll try watching both videos! :doh: Me and my assuming...

[bastet]

Huh. I liked a lot of what he lead, I liked her footwork, didn't notice his head being overly interesting, and the hand didn't bother me.

I think I just didn't care for his interpretation. I understand that a good part of it was rhythmic, and think he did a good enough job with it...but I didn't see any dynamicism. (Is that even a freakin' word?!?!) No contrast, no change, is what I'm trying to say. I'd have like to see him change things up a bit--the steps, the size of the steps, the timing, his body action, use some rise and fall.

...of course, I say all this knowing that i don't lead and can't dance half as well, so make of it what you will...I should hope to be that good...

good point- it could have used a little contrast too....for me...it seemed mostly it was an aesthetics issue...and not giving a bit of contrast would also probably lead to it looking a little mechanical also. I really don't like the head so far forward...looks-wise...but Milonguero style dancing is more about how it feels, rather than how it's looking...and it may feel just fine to both of them, since in this style dancing they aren't really going for snazzy stuff like ganchos, sacadas, boleos and all that....

[jhpark]

does milonguero style really tend to avoid boleos? it's just two pivots stuck together...

[bastet]

does milonguero style really tend to avoid boleos? it's just two pivots stuck together...


I suppose it's going to depend on who you ask....there is no technical reason to avoid at least a back boleo on either side (and my partner and I do them when there's room and it fits the music). To accomplish the front ones you need to adjust the embrace, I think...because...well I can't see how to maintain full conact in the solar plexus/sternum and upper abs and get enough dissociation to do a front boleo without needing a chiropractic adjustment after, and I can pretzel myself pretty well.

From the social aspect...since Milongureo style probably developed as a response to very crowded rooms, where you don't have room or space to do movments involving huge amounts of dissociation or big changes in the emabrace (big turns that would run in to other "lanes" and so forth, most ganchos (overrotation) and boleos or sacadas), there'd technicallly be no room for a boleo off the floor.

Now, we have people that are dancing that style even if the room is big and there's space, doing it as an exhibition, but still keeping to the old "codes" I guess, even when there's room to put a boleo in...so it's most likely out of custom.

I say, if you like a boleo, and you aren't going to hurt anyone, and you know where you can fit it on the fllor without interrupting others...why not use it. The milonguero purists who are watching probably won't like it much...but oh well.

[Ampster]

does milonguero style really tend to avoid boleos? it's just two pivots stuck together...

Not at all. You can do all of the signature AT stuff in any method you choose. You just have to vary the size and delivery of what you are leading.

In this case you lead it small, deliberately, and elegantly.

[bordertangoman]

well- how about this couple...do you feel the same way or different watching them?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zwA2um5rq0
shastro & maria

far nicer. better connection to each other and the music.

maybe i'm just expressing my prejudices.....

[Me]

Not at all. You can do all of the signature AT stuff in any method you choose. You just have to vary the size and delivery of what you are leading.

In this case you lead it small, deliberately, and elegantly.

:notworth: