Segregation in Pro/Am Events

[syncopationator]

Title got your attention? Good.

This issue revolves around syllabus events at pro/am competitions (not for Open events). Most competitions separate the gentlemen from the ladies when competing in non-scholarship events. Frankly, I find this to be completely insulting. Every time Pro sends my entries to organizers we have to specify that we want to be contested in the “ladies heats” in order to have some serious competition (the ladies heats usually have several entries, while the gents heats if contested usually have 2 competitors total). Sometimes my request is honored, but if there are other gentlemen entered in my event (even if it’s just one other gentleman) my request is ignored. The excuse I always get is that it would not be fair for that one gentleman to dance uncontested if there is another gentleman competing in his age/level classification… In my head I am thinking: if this other gentleman wanted to be contested wouldn’t he ask to be merged as well??? I’ve also been told that the rules require that I dance against other gentlemen if there is another entry in that heat; however, I’ve yet to find this in the NDCA rule book or any competition’s rules and regulations page (at least for the comps that I’ve attended).

Frankly I feel as if I am being robbed of the experience of an acutal competition when I could be competing against several competitors but instead I am forced to compete in a two couple final. This is not about winning or loosing either, I just want the best competition possible. I would much rather be 6th against 5 very good lady dancers than 1st against one other gent.

If there are any organizers on here or others involved in competition planning I would appreciate your input. Same with any thoughts anyone else has.

Thanks!

[njdancegirl]

Most male dancers that I've discussed this with (at the syllabus competitive level) feel their part is harder due to leading, floorcraft, etc and therefore feel it isn't fair to compete against the ladies. I'm not going to start the debate!

But I agree with you - I'd rather have somewhat equal competition - same age/level, different gender - than no competition at all. What's the point of competing then?!? Surprised more organizers wouldn't honor your request when possible. There are certain comps that combine even the single dances - Philly comes to mind - have you attended those?

[wooh]

At our teeny tiny local comp, I tried to combine the men in with the women in the couple of small scholarships we had. We had received a few, we were going to put them on the rounds that had the most competitors (you know, 4, instead of 2.) I was told I couldn't because it wasn't fair to the men. My response was, "Well, we've only got a couple of scholarships going to the rounds with the most competitors, so they can go against the women, or they can not have a chance at a scholarship." It still wasn't fair to the men.:confused:
I was even going to still separate them for the actual event, the top man would still get his 1st place coupon for next year. But the head judge thought this totally improper, and I wasn't in the mood to argue anymore.

I can totally understand though if you've got other men expecting to compete against men, the organizers are caught in a pickle. Who do they make happy? It's ironic, all this talk of danceSPORT and in most sports, the women are segregated because of the usual advantage that men have. And women that want to compete against men have to fight for the right to do it. Where as in dancesport, the men are segregated and have to fight to compete against women.

[syncopationator]

There are certain comps that combine even the single dances - Philly comes to mind - have you attended those?

Yes, I loved that about Philly!

[Chiron]

I'm with you on this one syncopationator. I also request to go against the ladies and really like scholarship events, because sometimes that is the only chance I get to go against the women.

[syncopationator]

I was even going to still separate them for the actual event, the top man would still get his 1st place coupon for next year.

This sounds like a reasonable solution to me

I can totally understand though if you've got other men expecting to compete against men, the organizers are caught in a pickle. Who do they make happy?

They should make it an option on the entry form (i.e. check here if you are a male and would like to be merged with the ladie's heats) that way the men that want to compete against the women are happy to get to do so and the men that don't want to compete against women don't have to worry about it.

It's ironic, all this talk of danceSPORT and in most sports, the women are segregated because of the usual advantage that men have. And women that want to compete against men have to fight for the right to do it. Where as in dancesport, the men are segregated and have to fight to compete against women.

Let the fight begin!!!

[Standarddancer]

It's great you like the challenge - it is MUCH harder for Gentleman with lady pro competing against most male pros with lady students, especially in standard. Well, from your avatar, you are doing Latin, so might be a different story for Latin.

However, I agree that they should not igore your request to compete against the ladies' heat if the gentleman dancer is ready for the challenge!!

[NielsenE]

I'm used to the gender-divided single dance events and the combined multi-dance (championships & scholarships). I tend to feel it works well. I do feel for the gents in Bronze B, however. At one large event, they had ~36 couples, 24 ladies and 12 men... No men made it out of the first round.

[syncopationator]

it is MUCH harder for Gentleman with lady pro competing against most male pros with lady students, especially in standard. Well, from your avatar, you are doing Latin, so might be a different story for Latin.

I agree it is much tougher in standard, but I make the request in standard anyway. I figure if I'm going to do it in latin, I should put up with getting my A$$ handed to me in standard as well. its only fair.

[syncopationator]

I'm used to the gender-divided single dance events and the combined multi-dance (championships & scholarships). I tend to feel it works well. I do feel for the gents in Bronze B, however. At one large event, they had ~36 couples, 24 ladies and 12 men... No men made it out of the first round.

Bronze being the entry level I feel it probably is good that it is segragated. Once you graduate from bronze though I feel that you should have a pretty good understanding of the basic technique and you should compete in the same category with the ladies.

[Larinda McRaven]

Organizers are in no way obliged to combine the men with the women. If a man is already contested against a man, then so be it. To me it is like the women that never want to compete in their own age divsion. Jusy get over it and dance in Your Real Divsion... whatever it is. But if someone is uncontested (man or woman) than an organizer would do well to allow them to move into an appropriate and similar event to find compatible competition.

One of the problems with moving people (who are already contested) around is many teachers or students will look in the book and start reorganizing their heats to avoid or challenge certain other competitors. Then poor Joy or Kathi or Brenda... whoever happens to be maning the computer ends up, for hours on end, reorganizing the entire competition. People are jumping heats, and the book becomes completely useless. So if you already have competition I say just leave it alone and stay where you are.

Another issue is MANY lady students get rather perturbed when I move my guys into their heats. They really don't like getting beaten by a guy and find it insulting... So first I look for other mens heats to move into, and if that doesn't work then I will inquire about the ladies heats. Several times I have been told that the Chairman of Judges wants to ask the ladies and their teachers if they mind that we join them. Several times the pro-am ladies and turned down my request... c'est la vie.

[fascination]

while I empathize with OP...if we start talking about what needs to happen for fairness...we will have the world's largest most complex thread...just as life isn't heaven, neither is ballroom fair...you have got to let that go or it will make you nuts

[Larinda McRaven]

what needs to happen for firness...

you sound like my southern relatives...

[Laura]

What about shopping around for competitions? Some competitions -- at least out here on the West Coast -- keep the genders separated for the Closed divisions but combine them for the Open ones (including Open Bronze and Open Silver, so it's not just the Open Gold people who have it). You can tell which ones do this because it says so on the Entry Forms.

[fascination]

lol...ooops...lemme go fix that...did I mention 12 lessons in 4 day and 10 hours at the gym...and that doesn't even count practice...am lucky to be vertical

[Standarddancer]

syncopationator, probably you are one of the few "elite" gentlemen who are eager to compete against male pros/lady students; I've only seen other male dancers feel scared/not comfortable competing against other male pros. Indeed, men have much harder job on the floor: leading, timing, directions, change of choreo when there are bad floor problems, etc. versus lady students only worry about their posture, following their pros, etc. I"ve seen outstanding male students too, but that's really minority...

So I would say it's a great advantage to have separate Gents' heat, I don't agree with you that Gents' heat should only limit to Bronze, should be from at least Bronze to Gold, maybe open single dances just to encourage more partnerless Gentlemen to participate in the sports; However, they should let you participate in ANY ladies' heats without charging extra registration fees, so that for those gentlemen who are ready to compete in both his own heats and open heats with ladies, they get more floor experience and opportunities to compete.

[Laura]

I'm looking at some of the comps I'm doing/have done to see which ones merge genders in the single dance events. So far I have:

Nevada Star Ball -- "Open Single Dance Group Events Genders will be merged in these heats"

International Grand Ball -- "Open One Dance Freestyle Events (Please circle the events you wish to enter – Ladies and Gentleman combined)"

Colorado Star Ball -- "OPEN One-Dance Divisions – Ladies & Gentlemen Combined"

These were from the first five I looked it. The ones that didn't have this are Embassy Ball and Hawaii Star Ball. But there are so many others, you can do your own checking :)

[syncopationator]

Organizers are in no way obliged to combine the men with the women. If a man is already contested against a man, then so be it. To me it is like the women that never want to compete in their own age divsion. Jusy get over it and dance in Your Real Divsion... whatever it is. But if someone is uncontested (man or woman) than an organizer would do well to allow them to move into an appropriate and similar event to find compatible competition.

I usually put up with it at small events. but when I go to the larger events and I see that there's a semi final or quarterfinal in the ladies heats and I only get to dance a straight final with just one other gentleman, well lets just say I'm not a very happy camper.

One of the problems with moving people (who are already contested) around is many teachers or students will look in the book and start reorganizing their heats to avoid or challenge certain other competitors. Then poor Joy or Kathi or Brenda... whoever happens to be maning the computer ends up, for hours on end, reorganizing the entire competition. People are jumping heats, and the book becomes completely useless. So if you already have competition I say just leave it alone and stay where you are.

I end up having to do this most of the time and while I would love to not have to bother anyone about it and screw up the book, its just something that will continue to have to do unless 5 or 6 gents decide to show up to compete.

Another issue is MANY lady students get rather perturbed when I move my guys into their heats. They really don't like getting beaten by a guy and find it insulting...

I never met anyone that was happy about losing.

[syncopationator]

I'm looking at some of the comps I'm doing/have done to see which ones merge genders in the single dance events. So far I have:

Nevada Star Ball -- "Open Single Dance Group Events Genders will be merged in these heats"

International Grand Ball -- "Open One Dance Freestyle Events (Please circle the events you wish to enter – Ladies and Gentleman combined)"

Colorado Star Ball -- "OPEN One-Dance Divisions – Ladies & Gentlemen Combined"

These were from the first five I looked it. The ones that didn't have this are Embassy Ball and Hawaii Star Ball. But there are so many others, you can do your own checking :)

Thank you, Thank you, Thank you!!!

[Laura]

Add San Francisco Open and Vegas Showdown to the list of comps where the men & ladies are combined in the Open Bronze/Silver/Gold events.

[Standarddancer]

well, you could never go wrong asking Laura:)

[Laura]

When I started reading this thread I was like "what the heck is he complaining about -- I see men vs. women all the time?" Maybe it's not as common on the East Coast? I've found six so far out here -- Seattle Star Ball, Colorado Star Ball, Nevada Star Ball, San Francisco Open, Vegas Showdown, and International Grand Ball. And I'm pretty sure that City Lights Ball also does this, but I can't find an entry form to confirm.

Looks like someone needs to come out to the west coast for some competitions!

I also know an competition organizer who will automatically collapse uncontested men into ladies heats of the same age and level, just so the guy will have some competition. This actually very much annoys some people -- but other people are glad of it. I don't think they do this if the guy is contested, though, even if it's just a tiny heat of guys.

[syncopationator]

looks like I will start doing more west coast comps. There goes my rainy day fund...

[Laura]

It doesn't rain much out here :)

[syncopationator]

It doesn't rain much out here :)

like we ever get to leave the hotel...

[Chris Stratton]

If a man is already contested against a man

The problem with this in my mind is that it assumes that the presence of another entry in the event means that it's contested.

Often when you have two or three entries in an event, of any sort, it's no contest at all, but more like doing rounds in costume. Or really, doing round, singular.

[Larinda McRaven]

what...? A contested event IS the presence of another entry, not just other events on the floor.

[tanya_the_dancer]

Title got your attention? Good.

This issue revolves around syllabus events at pro/am competitions (not for Open events). Most competitions separate the gentlemen from the ladies when competing in non-scholarship events. Frankly, I find this to be completely insulting. Every time Pro sends my entries to organizers we have to specify that we want to be contested in the “ladies heats” in order to have some serious competition (the ladies heats usually have several entries, while the gents heats if contested usually have 2 competitors total). Sometimes my request is honored, but if there are other gentlemen entered in my event (even if it’s just one other gentleman) my request is ignored. The excuse I always get is that it would not be fair for that one gentleman to dance uncontested if there is another gentleman competing in his age/level classification… In my head I am thinking: if this other gentleman wanted to be contested wouldn’t he ask to be merged as well??? I’ve also been told that the rules require that I dance against other gentlemen if there is another entry in that heat; however, I’ve yet to find this in the NDCA rule book or any competition’s rules and regulations page (at least for the comps that I’ve attended).

Frankly I feel as if I am being robbed of the experience of an acutal competition when I could be competing against several competitors but instead I am forced to compete in a two couple final. This is not about winning or loosing either, I just want the best competition possible. I would much rather be 6th against 5 very good lady dancers than 1st against one other gent.

If there are any organizers on here or others involved in competition planning I would appreciate your input. Same with any thoughts anyone else has.

Thanks!



Well, at least you have an option to ask for your event to be merged with someone else's. Since you can't dance up in age, I've danced uncontested or barely contested a lot, especially in my single dances (being in under 35 age group will do that to you, even if you are a girl). I even had an uncontested scholarship once, at a comp which offered scholarships for 3 age divisions.

[samina]

It's great you like the challenge - it is MUCH harder for Gentleman with lady pro competing against most male pros with lady students, especially in standard. Well, from your avatar, you are doing Latin, so might be a different story for Latin.

However, I agree that they should not igore your request to compete against the ladies' heat if the gentleman dancer is ready for the challenge!!
I've competed against both syncopationator and cantskiforlife and just loved the fact we were in the same race. These guys are really good dancers. It was a wonderdul feeling to *not* have them segregated. I hope the sport only increases the competition from the men.

And actually, if that occurs, I imagine sync and the like won't care so much whether they dance against the chicas or not...if they have some of their own sex with which to compare apples and apples, then all the better I suppose.

[Chris Stratton]

what...? A contested event IS the presence of another entry, not just other events on the floor.

That attitude seems to me to be precisely the problem - it ignores that there is a vast range of difference between potentially having a mobile obstacle on the floor, and having actual competition.

[dressgirl]

I have an idea. Lets just add another whole set of entries......all of closed and open coed. That way the comps can be an extra day or two long and I can sell my house and live in a hotel.

[SDsalsaguy]

I have an idea. Lets just add another whole set of entries......all of closed and open coed. That way the comps can be an extra day or two long and I can sell my house and live in a hotel.
:uplaugh:

[syncopationator]

and put them all together in one heat!

[Larinda McRaven]

That attitude seems to me to be precisely the problem - it ignores that there is a vast range of difference between potentially having a mobile obstacle on the floor, and having actual competition.

What are you talking about?

We are not talking about being alone on the floor, we are talking about being uncontested. Rarely at an NDCA comp are couples alone on the floor, unless it is Peabody or American Paso.

[Chris Stratton]

What are you talking about?

We are not talking about being alone on the floor, we are talking about being uncontested.

And I'm saying that having another couple entered in your specific event could mean it's contested, or it could mean that you have a movable obstacle on the floor. Ignoring the practical difference between these possibilities is the problem.

[dancerman]

Title got your attention? Good.



Frankly I feel as if I am being robbed of the experience of an acutal competition when I could be competing against several competitors but instead I am forced to compete in a two couple final. This is not about winning or loosing either, I just want the best competition possible. I would much rather be 6th against 5 very good lady dancers than 1st against one other gent.


Thanks!


You're being robbed of the experience of an actual comeptition? That's an isult to the "one" gentleman who doesn't happen to meet your standard of dancing! and I find it disgusting.
You're saying that this one other person you are stuck dancing against should step up to a competetive postion he may not be comfortable with? He should put himself in a competition where he stands no chance of placing to satiate your hunger for a real dancer to compete against.
What happened to the joy of competition? What happened to competing against yourself? I am not one of the blessed ones who can compete on a regular basis, for financial reasons. If or when I can start again I couldn't possibly compete against these females who have incredible male pros to dance with and get any further than the preliminary round. So you are saying that to appease your need for "real competition", the rest of us should be relgated to spending our day at the "kiddie pool" and stay out of the way of the grown ups?
If you have the need to compete stick to the scholarships, or better yet become a professional, and put your skills to better use. Or maybe, just maybe, that one person who is no more than an obstacle on the floor to you, will catch you on a real bad day, and beat you at your own game!

[dancerman]

And I'm saying that having another couple entered in your specific event could mean it's contested, or it could mean that you have a movable obstacle on the floor. Ignoring the practical difference between these possibilities is the problem.
In reply to your post as well, please read the last post by me!!!

[DancingJools]

Let's cool it down a bit. The obstacle reference came from Chris, not from Syncopationator, so don't punish him for that if you don't agree.
I don't take a position on this. Just saying let's not get too emotional.

[Larinda McRaven]

And I'm saying that having another couple entered in your specific event could mean it's contested, or it could mean that you have a movable obstacle on the floor. Ignoring the practical difference between these possibilities is the problem.
No, it is not the problem. And it is not even what OP (or anyone else) is talking about.

Back to talking about Contested vs Uncontested.

[Larinda McRaven]

Dancerman, I don't think Syncopationator is complaining about being against someone "below" him, or about having an unworthy "obstacle" on the floor. I see it more that he wants to know how he places against 7 couples... not just one (as we often see in the mens divisions).

He would rather leave the mens heats to compete against the women... based purely on the fact that number of couples that end up in in the womens heats is significantly larger. Thats all.

The only problem with his premise is that he is dooming the remaining man in his heat to compete uncontested, which is precisely what he himself is trying to avoid.

[Chris Stratton]

Two entries does not in practical terms make the event contested if they are sufficiently different in level.

This is not uncommon in events with only a few entries, regardless of what division they are. When only a fraction of events someone attends are that way it may and they have lots of other choices it may be no big deal, but if most available events turn out that way.

Also consider that a lot of the smaller divisions have the same few people in them over and over. Perhaps the first meeting is interesting until things become obvious a few measures in, but what contest is there in the nth re-run? Making binding decisions that prevent real competition based on the claim that the mismatch is contested is denying the reality of the situation.

[syncopationator]

You're being robbed of the experience of an actual comeptition? That's an isult to the "one" gentleman who doesn't happen to meet your standard of dancing! and I find it disgusting.
You're saying that this one other person you are stuck dancing against should step up to a competetive postion he may not be comfortable with? He should put himself in a competition where he stands no chance of placing to satiate your hunger for a real dancer to compete against.
What happened to the joy of competition? What happened to competing against yourself? I am not one of the blessed ones who can compete on a regular basis, for financial reasons. If or when I can start again I couldn't possibly compete against these females who have incredible male pros to dance with and get any further than the preliminary round. So you are saying that to appease your need for "real competition", the rest of us should be relgated to spending our day at the "kiddie pool" and stay out of the way of the grown ups?
If you have the need to compete stick to the scholarships, or better yet become a professional, and put your skills to better use. Or maybe, just maybe, that one person who is no more than an obstacle on the floor to you, will catch you on a real bad day, and beat you at your own game!

I think you got me all wrong. I do not mean to disrespect any of my peers. I never said anything about the standard of dance of other male students. I just want more competition in the form of number of competitors. I feel I'm being robbed of the experience if there are multiple rounds in an event and I don't get a shot at dancing in those. Instead I get a straight final against one or two other gents. They could be better than me or they could be not as good as me, it really doesn't matter because that's not what my issue is about. And if you catch me on a bad day, then I hope you beat me because I deserve it. And by the way, I wasn't the one calling anyone an obstacle on the floor. I would never say something like that.

I would stick to scholarships if I could but they usually require that you dance single entries in order to qualify. And why in the world would I want to be a professional???

You shouldn't take things personally. They are not directed at you.

[Larinda McRaven]

Two entries does not in practical terms make the event contested if they are sufficiently different in level.

This is not uncommon in events with only a few entries, regardless of what division they are. When only a fraction of events someone attends are that way it may and they have lots of other choices it may be no big deal, but if most available events turn out that way...


We are not talking about 2 seperate entries on the same heat/floor. We are talking about contested vs uncontested.

Drop it or go start your own thread. What you are talking about is too non-sequitur, and Obviously is making the thread wierd and confusing.

[Laura]

Syncopationator, I just want to add that having multiple rounds in single-dance events isn't very common at the comps I've been to, even when the ladies and gents are mixed. Thinking back over the past year or so, the only times I've had semis in my single-dance events were at comps like Emerald Ball where ladies and gents were not combined.

There have been many times where I've had between two and six people in my single dance events, and then I'll get to the Scholarship and there will be a semi or a quarter. So I think it's always a good idea to enter the Scholarship event. Yes, you have to enter some single-dance events to do the Scholarship, but since you're dancing them anyway then why not add the Scholarship to get the extra competition?

[syncopationator]

Sync, I just want to add that having multiple rounds in single-dance events isn't very common at the comps I've been to, even when the ladies and gents are mixed. Thinking back over the past year or so, the only times I've had semis in my single-dance events were at comps like Emerald Ball where ladies and gents were not combined.

There have been many times where I've had between two and six people in my single dance events, and then I'll get to the Scholarship and there will be a semi or a quarter. So I think it's always a good idea to enter the Scholarship event. Yes, you have to enter some single-dance events to do the Scholarship, but since you're dancing them anyway then why not add the Scholarship to get the extra competition?

Some of the larger events (i.e. Ohio) do. And yes, I always enter the scholarships.

[dancerman]

Let's cool it down a bit. The obstacle reference came from Chris, not from Syncopationator, so don't punish him for that if you don't agree.
I don't take a position on this. Just saying let's not get too emotional.

Title got your attention? Good.

This issue revolves around syllabus events at pro/am competitions (not for Open events). Most competitions separate the gentlemen from the ladies when competing in non-scholarship events. Frankly, I find this to be completely insulting. Every time Pro sends my entries to organizers we have to specify that we want to be contested in the “ladies heats” in order to have some serious competition (the ladies heats usually have several entries, while the gents heats if contested usually have 2 competitors total). Sometimes my request is honored, but if there are other gentlemen entered in my event (even if it’s just one other gentleman) my request is ignored. The excuse I always get is that it would not be fair for that one gentleman to dance uncontested if there is another gentleman competing in his age/level classification… In my head I am thinking: if this other gentleman wanted to be contested wouldn’t he ask to be merged as well??? I’ve also been told that the rules require that I dance against other gentlemen if there is another entry in that heat; however, I’ve yet to find this in the NDCA rule book or any competition’s rules and regulations page (at least for the comps that I’ve attended).

Frankly I feel as if I am being robbed of the experience of an acutal competition when I could be competing against several competitors but instead I am forced to compete in a two couple final. This is not about winning or loosing either, I just want the best competition possible. I would much rather be 6th against 5 very good lady dancers than 1st against one other gent.

If there are any organizers on here or others involved in competition planning I would appreciate your input. Same with any thoughts anyone else has.

Thanks!


Okay Dancing Jools, here is the rest if the post of the person I am punishing. I did not copy the whole thread because I didn't want it to be a page long when I finished. if you read the rest of the post you will see that syncopationator (sic) questions if the other gentleman really wanted to be contested wouldn't he want to be merged as well? He goes on to say this is not about winning or losing but about better competition? Rubbish!! I also replied to Chris's post as well, separately because I am not savvy enough to know how to put both quotes into my one reply.
And, yes I am emotional about this just as the original post was started by using emotion ("Got your attention? Good").
The scholarships offer males and females to compete head to head correct? I have watched females dance in scholarship who clearly had a huge advantage because of the male pro partner and scoring showed it. Why on earth would I want to put myself there if I am not ready? Should we put ourselves in a competition where we don't belong to appease someone else? That's not good sportsmanship IMO. That's strictly ego.
The one man who may not want to go into this other grouping has as much if a right to have competitionon the floor as does the better dancer who is being robbed.
I stick by my words, emotional as they may be.

[Laura]

Some of the larger events (i.e. Ohio) do. And yes, I always enter the scholarships.

Oh, sorry, I thought you said you didn't like the Scholarship because they require you to enter the single-dances.

Yeah, the biggest comps -- Ohio, Emerald, Holiday Dance Classic -- have two or three rounds for the ladies in the single-dances, but those comps don't combine ladies and gents. I think your best bet for a comp out on the West Coast that does combine them might be San Francisco Open. That comp is getting bigger every year, I haven't checked this year's heat lists but it might be getting big enough to make it worth your while.

[reb]

while I empathize with OP...if we start talking about what needs to happen for fairness...

sync, you're good - get into the championships and scholarships and just dominate unsuspecting male pros (uh, as a result of your poise and quality dancing, that is!) . . . and don't waste your time on single dances except enough to qualify

I think as people go through a level, we can see all sorts of inequities around us - looking back however, its like what's the big deal since there were inequities on all sides (and not all vision decreases with age)

[Larinda McRaven]

Originally Posted by syncopationator http://www.dance-forums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?p=586510#post586510)

we have to specify that we want to be contested in the “ladies heats” in order to have some serious competition (the ladies heats usually have several entries, while the gents heats if contested usually have 2 competitors total).

Frankly I feel as if I am being robbed of the experience of an acutal competition when I could be competing against several competitors but instead I am forced to compete in a two couple final.

This is not about winning or loosing either, I just want the best competition possible. I would much rather be 6th against 5 very good lady dancers than 1st against one other gent.Again Dancerman, he is talking about quantity... Chris was the one bringing up the potential disparity of quality between competitors.

The only thing about syncopationators post that doesn't quite gel with me is the part about wanting competiton basically means wanting to be merged with the ladies from the get go. My men and I do want competition when we enter. We just want it with peers, first, before having to go looking for it elsewhere.

[syncopationator]

Okay Dancing Jools, here is the rest if the post of the person I am punishing. I did not copy the whole thread because I didn't want it to be a page long when I finished. if you read the rest of the post you will see that syncopationator (sic) questions if the other gentleman really wanted to be contested wouldn't he want to be merged as well? He goes on to say this is not about winning or losing but about better competition? Rubbish!! I also replied to Chris's post as well, separately because I am not savvy enough to know how to put both quotes into my one reply.
And, yes I am emotional about this just as the original post was started by using emotion ("Got your attention? Good").
The scholarships offer males and females to compete head to head correct? I have watched females dance in scholarship who clearly had a huge advantage because of the male pro partner and scoring showed it. Why on earth would I want to put myself there if I am not ready? Should we put ourselves in a competition where we don't belong to appease someone else? That's not good sportsmanship IMO. That's strictly ego.
The one man who may not want to go into this other grouping has as much if a right to have competitionon the floor as does the better dancer who is being robbed.
I stick by my words, emotional as they may be.

dancerman I probably could have chosen my words better but the point I was trying to make, which 99.9% of those on this thread understood, has to do with more competition and not the quality of male dancers. As I stated before, i did not mean to offend anyone. I'm sorry if I did.

[syncopationator]

sync, you're good - get into the championships and scholarships and just dominate unsuspecting male pros (uh, as a result of your poise and quality dancing, that is!) . . . and don't waste your time on single dances except enough to qualify

I think as people go through a level, we can see all sorts of inequities around us - looking back however, its like what's the big deal since there were inequities on all sides (and not all vision decreases with age)

And just to clarify, I don't have a huge ego, I just have a lot more fun when there's more competition. That's all.

[dancerman]

I think you got me all wrong. I do not mean to disrespect any of my peers. I never said anything about the standard of dance of other male students. I just want more competition in the form of number of competitors. I feel I'm being robbed of the experience if there are multiple rounds in an event and I don't get a shot at dancing in those. Instead I get a straight final against one or two other gents. They could be better than me or they could be not as good as me, it really doesn't matter because that's not what my issue is about. And if you catch me on a bad day, then I hope you beat me because I deserve it. And by the way, I wasn't the one calling anyone an obstacle on the floor. I would never say something like that.

I would stick to scholarships if I could but they usually require that you dance single entries in order to qualify. And why in the world would I want to be a professional???

You shouldn't take things personally. They are not directed at you.
Okay before I go any further pleae do not tell me not to take this personally. This is not about me. This is directed IMO at anyone who may be on the floor, whether it be me or anyone else. I just finished saying right now I can't compete. I suggest the choice of words is the issue, and I speak up when something bothers me. I speak up because, first I can, and second, I would be very very surprised if I am the only one that would read it this way.
I started out at a fanchise school, where the opposite was an issue. There was an individual who had been dancing for at least 10 years, and refused to graduate out of bronze. Why? Because if he did he could no longer compete at bronze level. He dominated comeptitions at bronze, because with his experience he could have been dancing gold level at this fanchise.
My point? I thought this was all about sportsmanship, and I'm just not seeing it in this thread.
As far as why be a professional? Because then you would have all of the competition you would ever want.

[danceronice]

I can sympathize with syncopationator--I have had some heats where there were only one or two other people, or in some cases none (dancerman, were you at Seacoast this year? Three of my five Rhythm heats were uncontested, as were four of my Smooth. And in Michigan, while I appreciated not being able to do worse than third in Latin, it's still a letdown.) It's not much fun where there's no one to compete against, and it doesn't really tell you much about your dancing if there's only one other person in the heat.

[dancerman]

Again Dancerman, he is talking about quantity... Chris was the one bringing up the potential disparity of quality between competitors.

The only thing about syncopationators post that doesn't quite gel with me is the part about wanting competiton basically means wanting to be merged with the ladies from the get go. My men and I do want competition when we enter. We just want it with peers, first, before having to go looking for it elsewhere.

Larinda, with the greatest of respect, I don't read it that way. I read further into the post questioning whether the other man on the floor wants to be contested.
This post was meant to be an attention grabber from the title. So, what can I say? It got my attention. And it got my opinion.
No one has to agree with me. But if I read a post that rubs me wrong I have to reply.
;)

[dancerman]

I can sympathize with syncopationator--I have had some heats where there were only one or two other people, or in some cases none (dancerman, were you at Seacoast this year? Three of my five Rhythm heats were uncontested, as were four of my Smooth. And in Michigan, while I appreciated not being able to do worse than third in Latin, it's still a letdown.) It's not much fun where there's no one to compete against, and it doesn't really tell you much about your dancing if there's only one other person in the heat.
Yes I was. I took 350 pictures while I watched (and helped a few of my friends warm up).

[Larinda McRaven]

No disrespect taken. ;) I completely understand you are moved by the thread.

But OP had already stated that your understanding was not his intention. And he has apologized for any confusion.

[wooh]

It's not much fun where there's no one to compete against, and it doesn't really tell you much about your dancing if there's only one other person in the heat.

I can absolutely agree that it may not be much fun to compete against a small number of people, especially if it effects the number of rounds you could be in.
However, I'd argue whether you've got 1 or 100 other people in your heat, neither way does it tell you much about your dancing. All it tells you either way is what the judges saw on that particular day during the arbitrary few seconds they saw you and the arbitrary few seconds they saw your competition and the opinion that particular set of judges had on that day about those arbitrary few seconds.

[Chris Stratton]

...and consistency in those things is a not insignificant skill

[wooh]

Two entries does not in practical terms make the event contested if they are sufficiently different in level.


And if that's the problem, then one (or both) of them are in the wrong level and need to adjust accordingly.

[dancerman]

No disrespect taken. ;) I completely understand your are moved by the thread.

But OP had already stated that your understanding was not his intention. And he has apologized for any confusion.

Thanks. Just for the record no apology is necessary. This isn't about that. I think competition is good, but I sometimes think it goes too far. I'm not going to perseverate on this because then I will just risk pi--ing someone off, which I have no desire to do.
The intention of the thread may have been more obvious to others, but the message was not so obvious to me. Most replies were posted after I was typing.
No harm no foul.

[dancerman]

I can sympathize with syncopationator--I have had some heats where there were only one or two other people, or in some cases none (dancerman, were you at Seacoast this year? Three of my five Rhythm heats were uncontested, as were four of my Smooth. And in Michigan, while I appreciated not being able to do worse than third in Latin, it's still a letdown.) It's not much fun where there's no one to compete against, and it doesn't really tell you much about your dancing if there's only one other person in the heat.

Hey danceronice did you find me a store/apt yet?
:rolleyes:

[reb]

Yeah, I can identify because sometimes there appears to be other issues at play, and some are artifacts like wearing that bright yellow background number (or red numbers) at select comps to clearly signify "male amateur". Never liked it, never will. There are explanations why its done, but in the end, you're wearing the same warning label in the scholarship events.

And then I try to remember that its not worth getting bothered too much since its the judges can't overlook the comparable quality of dancng of, say, an Ermis or a Suvorov . . .


I think I can
I think I can

[wooh]

Yeah, I can identify because sometimes there appears to be other issues at play, and some are artifacts like wearing that bright yellow background number (or red numbers) at select comps to clearly signify "male amateur". Never liked it, never will. There are explanations why its done, but in the end, you're wearing the same warning label in the scholarship events.


Could be worse, they could have all the amateurs wear a gown instead.:twisted:

[reb]

Hmmm . . . it would cover a multitude of technical errors . . .

[Terpsichorean Clod]

I can absolutely agree that it may not be much fun to compete against a small number of people, especially if it effects the number of rounds you could be in.
However, I'd argue whether you've got 1 or 100 other people in your heat, neither way does it tell you much about your dancing. All it tells you either way is what the judges saw on that particular day during the arbitrary few seconds they saw you and the arbitrary few seconds they saw your competition and the opinion that particular set of judges had on that day about those arbitrary few seconds.
They should just get rid of those silly costumes and have a social dance party instead on that nice, big floor, eh? ;)

[wooh]

They should just get rid of those silly costumes and have a social dance party instead on that nice, big floor, eh? ;)

It does seem a waste sometimes...:D

[Easy]

You can't please everyone at a competition. As it's been, in my experience for many years, normally the closed and open single dance divisions are separated by sex. The same sex divisions are usually your scholarship and champion divisions.

If an organizer is willing to accomodate you, that's great for you, but I'm sure many other couples might feel quite the opposite. You never know as a competitor or an organizer how many ages/sex/levels are going to compete...teachers often wait til the last minute to send their entry forms unfortunately. Anyway, the competitions as they are now have long days. The format most competitions use now please the most. Ohio starball is so large, for instance, that with a single student I can only enter maybe 30-something entries total. That's a big letdown when you think of the expense, time, and effort put into attending an event like that. However, I can understand why they have to do it that way. To please everyone, they'd have to add a few extra days.

It's really a bummer when you get all psyched for a competition and you don't have much competition, but I really don't see how they can change things and really please everone.

Seems your best bet is to look forward to the same sex events for your greatest competition and challenge, and use the single dance events for the honing of your skills....hoping more people will attend in your division.

On a side, I know of at least one man...don't know if he had the change or not, but he competes as a woman amateur. Is it fair to the ladies? Is he at an advantage or disadvantage? I tend to think the latter, but he made his choice and he enters the competitions as the person he wants everyone to see.

It does throw a rock into the spokes, but he did choose to enter the ladies division as a lady. Lol...that would be one way around the rule ;)

If I were a lady amateur, I would feel a bit threatened knowing I was dancing against a lady pro. The ladies that don't, and seek their greatest competition, enter the scholarships and championships.

[wooh]

You can't please everyone at a competition.
That right there says it all.:)

[samina]

with a single student I can only enter maybe 30-something entries total. That's a big letdown when you think of the expense, time, and effort put into attending an event like that.
*only* 30 entries...?? Holy cow...what do you usually enter with a single student?

I do 7 for standard, 6 for latin, and feel I have my hands full!

[Joe]

My men and I do want competition when we enter. We just want it with peers, first, before having to go looking for it elsewhere.
That is a whole separate issue--establishing a larger pool of competition. ;)

IMO, the "separate but equal" situation is mainly an ego issue.

If you assume that the Am gents would be blown away by the Pro gents, in a separate-gent two-couple event one gent wins while the other is last, whereas in a coed event one gent would still be last, while the other gent (Mr. Former Winner) would be next-to-last.

However, if you assume that the Am gents might have a shot, why wouldn't they want to dance against the ladies? Dancing only one round against a handful of other people, vs. the chance of dancing multiple rounds against lots of people...who wouldn't want the latter?

It's clearly an ego issue for the ladies too, if some of them are the ones saying they don't want coed competition.

Okay before I go any further pleae do not tell me not to take this personally.
You seem to be taking it awfully personally, though...

[dancerman]

You seem to be taking it awfully personally, though...

Joe,
you know I am really glad I read this after I got some sleep because this post would have kept me up. IMO Your reply is extremely unfair, inflammatory and judgemental. You don't know what I am thinking. You are making an assumption based on what you read and how you read it, just a I have with this whole post.
Do you think I should subdue my opinion because someone won't like it?
I felt the start of this post was demeaning, whether it is towards me or anyone else. For someone to want additional competition is fine, but there is more than one way to peel a potato. The word semantics (sic) exists for a reason. It's how something is said that determines how it is read.
The generator of this thread clarified his postion which I accepted. He also apologized, which I stated publicly was not necessary, as it was not. I gave my opinion on this yesterday. Is that not the purpose of these threads?
I also highly recommend if you are going to quote me don't pull a line out as you did and provide a incomplete representation of my own post. You were extremely selective on what you pulled as a quote.

[Larinda McRaven]

:roll: boys...boys....boys....

Joe, no need to poke him.

Dancerman, lets just it go and let the thread get back on topic. If it is a subject you wish to further explore you are welcome to start a thread specifically for it. But the Original Poster is entitled to a thread about the subject they started.

[tangotime]

Could be worse, they could have all the amateurs wear a gown instead.:twisted:

And thats just the men !!.... :rolleyes:

[fascination]

*only* 30 entries...?? Holy cow...what do you usually enter with a single student?

I do 7 for standard, 6 for latin, and feel I have my hands full!
not to get off the main topic sam but what he means is that at alot of comes due to the ability to dance many age groups and levels one sutdent could easily dance 3 times that whereas at ohio due to it's size the comp simply must curtail that or it would be a two week event...and then poor dressgirl would be officially homeless

[fascination]

Joe,
you know I am really glad I read this after I got some sleep because this post would have kept me up. IMO Your reply is extremely unfair, inflammatory and judgemental. You don't know what I am thinking. You are making an assumption based on what you read and how you read it, just a I have with this whole post.
Do you think I should subdue my opinion because someone won't like it?
I felt the start of this post was demeaning, whether it is towards me or anyone else. For someone to want additional competition is fine, but there is more than one way to peel a potato. The word semantics (sic) exists for a reason. It's how something is said that determines how it is read.
The generator of this thread clarified his postion which I accepted. He also apologized, which I stated publicly was not necessary, as it was not. I gave my opinion on this yesterday. Is that not the purpose of these threads?
I also highly recommend if you are going to quote me don't pull a line out as you did and provide a incomplete representation of my own post. You were extremely selective on what you pulled as a quote.
...I echo larinda's sentiment ...let's let it drop...as for joe...I dunno... when joe is being rude it's pretty unmistakable and I didn't see his post that way....so anyhow...let's just let it go

[Larinda McRaven]

My men and I do want competition when we enter. We just want it with peers, first, before having to go looking for it elsewhere.

That is a whole separate issue--establishing a larger pool of competition. ;)

IMO, the "separate but equal" situation is mainly an ego issue.

Okay, perhaps I should have stated "We just ACCEPT it with peers, first, before having to go looking for it elsewhere." It is not an ego thing. Almost everyone of my guys would rather get 6th out of 12 than 1st out of 2, regardless of men or women. But if there is at least one man, then my guys don't ask to change. They realized this is the gamble they take when they sign up and go compete against the one guy. That is just how it works at smaller comps. They also look forward to certain larger comps simple for the fact of a larger pool of competitors.

If we leave a mens division (and leave the men behind) then we make the problem worse. It also creates such havoc on the book that if we leave to go to a bigger heat, and some of those people have left to go to a different heat for whatever Their issue is, then by the time we get there the new heat is empty too... and the vicious circle continues... ad nauseum...

[Larinda McRaven]

...when joe is being rude it's pretty unmistakable and I didn't see his post that way

:uplaugh:

[njdancegirl]

It's clearly an ego issue for the ladies too, if some of them are the ones saying they don't want coed competition.

I say the more competition the better...doesn't matter gender to me. Yes, I'd like it to be the most comparable competition (correct age, level), but beyond that, I'd rather compete against a whole slew of gents than be uncontested.

[dancerman]

:roll: boys...boys....boys....

Joe, no need to poke him.

Dancerman, lets just it go and let the thread get back on topic. If it is a subject you wish to further explore you are welcome to start a thread specifically for it. But the Original Poster is entitled to a thread about the subject they started.

OMG Larinda, I was just responding to your post. I changed my mind, and decided to calm down, and you edited it!! I am glad I waited.
:peace:
I am ending direction this has gone, because it really is my fault. I replied this morning because IMO this was a poke, loud and clear. And that I did take persoanlly.

As far as getting back on topic I agree. I can't add much more because if my original post was more on point, and yes maybe a little less personal, it would have been on topic.

My point was there are those out there, be them male or be them female, that maybe don't want the additional pressure out of their selective class. I think those individuals have the right to have competitors in their class, if there are others who qualify for that class. If not, then one person has competition they feel is more up to their standards, and the other has none, which is soemthing dacneronice complained about earlier. Now no one has to agree, the originator or anyone. That is the blessing of a free Democractic society, and I embrace it.
I really really hope that makes sense, because, my God, I can't find any other way to re-word it.

Please, this reply is not meant to be personal in any way shape or form, because I don't care one bit if I am alone in my class. I can dance on the floor alone, in fact, I love being out there. Whether it is a comp or a social event. I will be the first one out at a dance, because someone has to and why not have it be me? The less people on the floor the more people see me (that's not personal, its narcosistic).
:wink:
I find pure satisfaction being on the competive floor, period. I find it an honor that I am even able to get out there and show off my dancing, as well as my partner. I am out there to make my instructor proud; she's the one that had to put up with me when we aren't in the spotlight.

I hope I am on point.

And Joe, Give me a Hug!
:cheers:

[dancerman]

:uplaugh:

Larinda, you're the best!

Thanks for getting this on track!!!!

:applause:

[Larinda McRaven]

My point was there are those out there, be them male or be them female, that maybe don't want the additional pressure out of their selective class. I think those individuals have the right to have competitors in their class, if there are others who qualify for that class.

This is well said.

[Larinda McRaven]

And Joe, Give me a Hug!:cheers:

let the lovefest begin...

[dancerman]

let the lovefest begin...
Ahhhhhhh, an instructor with a sense of humor!!!
:uplaugh:

[syncopationator]

Almost everyone of my guys would rather get 6th out of 12 than 1st out of 2, regardless of men or women.

ditto

[syncopationator]

Lovefest on DF

:ladiesma:

[dancerman]

Lovefest on DF

:ladiesma:


I love this smiley, didn't know if I should use it. I'm glad someone did....
LOL

:raisebro:

[NielsenE]

I think the "ideal" solution from many student's (and even teacher's viewpoints) would be to have gender segregated and gender combined championships & scholarships. (ie three events for every collapsed level/age division), I suspect most competitors would choose to enter both their gender and the combined. But for the few people who don't want to compete against the other gender they have the appropriate event; and for people who want to save some money they could only do the combined, if that's where their desires lie.

Of course this overlooks the time preassure adding even a few extra (multi-dance) events to each session would entail. Not to mention having to get more scholarhsip priize money, or reduce the existing pots, etc... Of course more events could equal more entries -- (though it might just mean people doing fewer single dance and an additional multi which is cost-savings for the student and income-decreasing for the organizer....)

[tanya_the_dancer]

Personally, if there was one more multi-dance event I could do, I would do it, but I would drop some of the single dances in order to do it.

FWIW, St. Louis Starball this year added coed single dances in 2 age groups: 45 or under and 46+. Very few people entered those, most people did just single dances they normally do.

[Chris Stratton]

We are not talking about 2 seperate entries on the same heat/floor. We are talking about contested vs uncontested.

Two entries in the same event does not make that event contested in any meaningful way if the entries are sufficiently different in level.

In theory they are competing against each other, but in practice it is "no contest" at all.

Entering such events would get old quickly - especially if there's an immediately adjacent event that does have real competition.

And that seems to me to be exactly the complaint - the organizers might let him dance against the ladies if there were no other men entered, but as soon as there is one, they are going to force him into that event, without evaluating if that would constitute any sort of contest or not. Maybe if the two gentleman don't know each other it would; but if they've been up against each other several times and it's clear there is no comparison, forcing a rerun of that and in the process preventing an actual competition, is ignoring the reality of the situation.

I think this ultimately would be a lot like telling an amateur senior couple that if another senior couple is attending the competition, then they cannot enter the adult division and must dance senior instead. With the exception of very few competitions, that would mean that the senior couples who are competitive in adult would have others entered in their event, but would be effectively dancing uncontested.

[fascination]

how is it any different if the ladies are also not real competition in terms of skill?...

[Chris Stratton]

how is it any different if the ladies are also not real competition in terms of skill?...

The more couples entered the more chance of competition. Or simply dancing against someone you haven't danced against before. Taking it a bit further, my impression is that with half a final, you really care who they are. With a semifinal, warm bodies start to count.

Also, since this was specifically pro-am, no matter what the official judging policy is, there's going to be some feeling of competition between the amateur man and the professional partners of the ladies entered. Maybe sometimes that's ultimately no contest as well, but at least it's no contest in an unfamiliar direction.

[Larinda McRaven]

how is it any different if the ladies are also not real competition in terms of skill?...
It isn't.

And we all know that we can change age categories. Senior vs Adult, C vs B... there are rules that allow these changes to happen. The question is men vs women. And if people want a unisex heat then they should go enter a scholarship. Or if people want more competitors then go to a comp with more established numbers of competitors per heat.

If you enter a mens divsion that is what you get, men, for better or worse.

[Larinda McRaven]

Also, since this was specifically pro-am, no matter what the official judging policy is, there's going to be some feeling of competition between the amateur man and the professional partners of the ladies entered. Maybe sometimes that's ultimately no contest as well, but at least it's no contest in an unfamiliar direction.


There is? Then someone is a bit delusional.

[etp777]

Personally, I'm rather ambivelant on the segregation as a point in itself. I just want competition. Now, in my mind, that can be found in jsut one person, if it's right person (or couple, to be exact). Last comp, had one guy that was only other person in any of my heats. But he just barely beat me in anything, when he did. Now while I definitely want to compete against other people too, a heat with just me and him is competition in my book, because I know I have to do my best if I want to beat him (yet it's not out of reach, like if I was trying to compete against Corky Ballas or something. :) ). Actually, think he said he'd be at December comp again, need to make sure he hasn't moved past me syllabus level wise while I was in Kuwait so I can have anohter chance competing against him.

[Josh]

Also, since this was specifically pro-am, no matter what the official judging policy is, there's going to be some feeling of competition between the amateur man and the professional partners of the ladies entered.

Why?

I would say "lol", but "lol" doesn't seem to do it justice.

[fascination]

oh goodness gracious...what is it with the male ego?

[etp777]

I know I always compare myself to the male pros, Josh. Course, that's partly because I know all the pros at our local closed comps, so may be different for other guys. Course, also part of being a perfectionist.

[fascination]

well anyone who is smart is going to watch and aspire to the skills of those who have spent more time in the field..and any Am. who has been around long enough to work really hard is going to surpass some folks who are pros......but goodness gracious...when shalene and larinda are on the floor with their guys, I am not at all about competing with them...lordy how dumb is that?...and then there are lady pros who I could give a run for their money ...but I am not dancing against them (at least not in closed).....and I would hope even when in open that the balance of what I am dancing against is the Am.... beyond that, i am only in control of how good my own dancing is and not who shows up at any comp on any given day and/or all of the myriad of other inequities and politics and serendipity that happens from comp to comp

[Chris Stratton]

Why a feeling of competition? Because ultimately you notice the others you are sharing the floor with, how they move and react - especially in standard. It's not just doing what you planned, for the guys there's an element of strategy and interaction with the others. Rounds for example are very different with just one pro couple in the mix.

[Larinda McRaven]

Because they inspire you and eminate a discernable energy. Not because you are honestly pitting yourself against Arunas.

(Maybe you compare yourself to him, but you are not honestly pitting yourself against him.)

[Laura]

If I were a lady amateur, I would feel a bit threatened knowing I was dancing against a lady pro.
The lady pros don't threaten me -- it's the other male pros that I used to be scared of. Going out there and setting up next to, oh, Victor Veyrasset, used to kind of freak me out. But not any more. You just have to get used to it, that's part of doing Pro/Am. If someone doesn't like dancing around the pros, then they can either learn to manage their feelings about it or try to dance in Amateur events.

[Merrylegs]

It's a great esthetic to aspire to but it will never be a possibility. I spend 11 hours a day at my desk job whereas these lovely ladies spend their days dancing and practicing their routines. As an amateur you just cannot compare to the level of dancing simply due to the circumstances that define being a competing professional.

Now, if they want to enter an Executive Assistant competition, then things would be different! :cool:

[Chris Stratton]

Inspire, yes, but there's also an element of interaction. They react to your presence in different ways than a less experienced dancer would, and that presents different challenges - as I said before, rounds feel very different with a pro couple in the mix, not necessarily because it's actual competition, but because it becomes a different experience.

Also, a less skilled leader whose partner places no restrictions on his floorcraft may have freedom that even a very skilled one constrained by an inexperienced student to stick fairly close to the routine may not have. Usually strong pros have quite flexible students, but that's not the case for the whole division.

[Larinda McRaven]

Now, if they want to enter an Executive Assistant competition, then things would be different! :cool:

you clearly have me beat!

[Merrylegs]

Inspire, yes, but there's also an element of interaction. They react to your presence in different ways than a less experienced dancer would, and that presents different challenges.


The reaction is "get out of my way or I will run you down". :car:

Seriously, the pros have MUCH more experience with floorcraft than any amateur could possibly think to have due to having more time on the competition floor.

[fascination]

The lady pros don't threaten me -- it's the other male pros that I used to be scared of. Going out there and setting up next to, oh, Victor Veyrasset, used to kind of freak me out. But not any more. You just have to get used to it, that's part of doing Pro/Am. If someone doesn't like dancing around the pros, then they can either learn to manage their feelings about it or try to dance in Amateur events.
I feel that I can speak to this from a very unique perspective...FP was relatively obscure until recently...we always felt that we were walking on to a disadvantage...sometimes it was very disheartening to lose to ladies who didn't seem that skilled but had big name pros...now, as fate would have it, I am currently dancing with a pretty high profile pro and while it is nice to know that I walk on with that advantage, I want to earn any mark I get...so as I said...all I can do is to focus on the process of learning and improving and pay no real heed to the marks except as a matter of consistency over time...and even then...I simply must be more cognizant of what got better...and my knowing for myself that I did that

[Merrylegs]

you clearly have me beat!

I challenge you to a budget review! I've thrown down the gauntlet!!!

[Laura]

And if people want a unisex heat then they should go enter a scholarship.
Or enter some of the competitions that already combine genders in the Open single-dance competitions. I mean really, the option is out there, one just has to shop around. Different comps do things the way they do to support their customer base. If you happen to live in an area that doesn't do things the way you like, that's kind of bad for the old travel budget, but it doesn't mean that that is the way it is everywhere.

For instance, I adore dancing at night, and make sure I pick out a few comps to do every year where I get the opportunity to do so.

[Chris Stratton]

The reaction is "get out of my way or I will run you down".

Part of the experience is learning to stand your ground when you are justified in doing so.

[Merrylegs]

Part of the experience is learning to stand your ground when you are justified in doing so.

It was a joke, Chris.

[Laura]

Um, didn't there used to be a "delete post" option on the edit page? I made a joke and then decided it wasn't funny enough and wanted to delete it, and now I can't.

[Merrylegs]

I guess since this IS a segregation thread, that maybe only the women got it?

[Chris Stratton]

It was a joke, Chris.

But it's not a joke. There's something important to learn there, both about standing your ground and also about dancing in a way that has enough value that you are justified in standing it. It doesn't sound fair, but the more there is to your dancing, in a way the higher the cost of crashing into you.

[njdancegirl]

Um, didn't there used to be a "delete post" option on the edit page? I made a joke and then decided it wasn't funny enough and wanted to delete it, and now I can't.

It was pretty funny, Laura. We all complain about the system, but even with all of its issues, I'm just happy we have a system at all that includes (almost) everyone - all ages, all levels, all genders, all partnership types.

[Laura]

Wow, hot new icon njdancegirl!

[Merrylegs]

Um, didn't there used to be a "delete post" option on the edit page? I made a joke and then decided it wasn't funny enough and wanted to delete it, and now I can't.

I thought it was funny. :p

[njdancegirl]

Wow, hot new icon njdancegirl!

Thanks - Empire this past weekend. Was trying to get away from the playboy bunny look (Sam!).

[emeralddancer]

I am a bit confused ... and maybe rightly so as I have not yet competed ... but I THOUGHT the point of competing pro/am was for the am to go out there and compete to the best of his or her ability reguardless of who is on the floor as long as they are all pro/am couples, male or female.

Somehow (and maybe I am TOTALLY misreading everything) I am getting that there are different standards for am women and am men.

[Merrylegs]

But it's not a joke. There's something important to learn there, both about standing your ground and also about dancing in a way that has enough value that you are justified in standing it. It doesn't sound fair, but the more there is to your dancing, in a way the higher the cost of crashing into you.

So, now your argument is about floorcraft and not the gender disparity in Pro/Am competitions, is that correct?

Are you saying that you, as the Amateur in a Pro/Am competition, have as much to offer as the Professional in a Pro/Am competition and, therefore, should ignore all rules of etiquette, by "Standing your ground"? Are you intentionally getting in the way of other couples on the floor because there is more to your dancing? Do you feel this is subjective? Do you feel this is good floorcraft? Ethical?

In my mind, etiquette and floorcraft share a lot of the same meanings with regard to ballroom competitions.

Or are you the Pro now? I remember your previous signature saying that you were teaching ballroom, so I guess that means you are now the Pro in the Pro/Am. So, OK, I get it now. Or, do I?

[danceronice]

Because they inspire you and eminate a discernable energy. Not because you are honestly pitting yourself against Arunas.

(Maybe you compare yourself to him, but you are not honestly pitting yourself against him.)

:rocker: Heck, I'm intimidated by some more advanced female students! It's going to be a long time before I can compare myself to them, let alone compete with them, and we're talking years and years before I could even think about actually being competitive against even the lowest-ranked female pros, if ever.

Taking a slightly different view from fasc, I dance with pros--oh, for heaven's sake, most posters know who I dance with (and they may be reading). They're known, they're successful, and really for me I think it helps me dance better. Not because I think we're getting a score boost but because I know that no matter what I do, they're going to look out for me. (Even if sometimes it doesn't seem like I know that. *cough*Standard*cough*) I also tell myself that they are not going to be out here with me unless they think I'm not going to embarrass myself, them, or the studio. It's a major confidence boost. If I'm confident, I dance better, simple enough. The minute I'm rattled, I fall apart.

[Chris Stratton]

The single dance events are often run with separate competitions for male students and female students.

[Merrylegs]

I am a bit confused ... and maybe rightly so as I have not yet competed ... but I THOUGHT the point of competing pro/am was for the am to go out there and compete to the best of his or her ability reguardless of who is on the floor as long as they are all pro/am couples, male or female.

Somehow (and maybe I am TOTALLY misreading everything) I am getting that there are different standards for am women and am men.

I thought the judging was amateur against amateur, and the norm is that the amateurs are dancing against people of the same gender, except in cases already noted.

[Chris Stratton]

So, now your argument is about floorcraft and not the gender disparity in Pro/Am competitions, is that correct?

No, my argument is about ruling out interesting competition situations based on the flawed assumption that having two entries in event means that it is contested. It doesn't matter if that's men's pro-am, or amateur senior, or any other situations in which sticking to a flawed assumption would force a couple to dance without meaningful competition when there is an alternative possibility that would mean competition, or at least a more interesting experience.

Are you saying that you, as the Amateur in a Pro/Am competition, have as much to offer as the Professional in a Pro/Am competition and, therefore, should ignore all rules of etiquette, by "Standing your ground"?

The "rules" as they are justify holding just about any position on the floor for a few measures, and put the blame for a collision on anyone running into you. However, the reality is that if you aren't accomplishing much dancing by your presence, you are going to look in a certain sense at fault for getting in the way of someone who really is accomplishing something. On the other hand, if both couples are accomplishing something, then the one causing the collision is the one whose presentation is more damaged by it.

[Laura]

No, my argument is about ruling out interesting competition situations based on the flawed assumption that having two men entered in event means that it is contested.
You never know who is going to turn up, simple as that, and it is true of Amateur competitions, Professional competitions, and Pro/Am Competitions. That's just the way it goes. Pro/AM comp entry forms/rules say which events are gender combined and which are not, so one can attempt to avoid the "no one is good enough to be competition for me" situation.

And while I get your point, I think it would be rather rude to suddenly quit/change out of an event just because when you looked at who you were dancing against you decided that no one was high enough level to make it worth your while. If that became the norm, then I can think of a few very top US-based couples who would never dance a competition in this country except for the National Championships.

[Chris Stratton]

Yes, you can vote with your feet.

Unfortunate if that means flying across the country for reasonable opportunities though.

In terms of making entry decisions based on the other competitors, that actually is extremely common in the amateur division, it's just often not very visible, in part because it's usually a decision between attending vs. not attending, rather than what to enter once there.

[samina]

i Challenge You To A Budget Review! I've Thrown Down The Gauntlet!!!
*lol*

[Laura]

Unfortunate if that means flying across the country for reasonable opportunities though
As someone who has never done Pro/Am, I fail to see why you are so up in arms about this. But anyway...

How about rather than a Pro/Am guy getting to the local competition and asking to be changed around because he doesn't feel the guy (or guys) he is dancing against are strong enough, the Pro/Am guy ask IN ADVANCE that the Open Bronze/Silver/Gold events be made unisex. If the organizer says no, he tells them that he sees it happening in other parts of the country and he'd really like to see them consider it, and that he will not be attending otherwise. Ask nicely in advance. Lobby for it nicely in advance. Don't attend a comp that won't do it a few times. Get other teachers and gentlemen and lady Pro/Ams to ask for it. If the local organizer can see that people really want/welcome making the open single-dances unisex, then maybe they will change it. The organizers want to get more people in their comps and make more money. It seems a fair solution (making the open single-dance unisex) has been invented and is in use in places, so try to make it spread, simple as that. People who only want to do single-sex events then have an option, and people who want to do coed have an option. Seems 'all good' to me. I just don't get why this is causing so much angst.

[samina]

Um, didn't there used to be a "delete post" option on the edit page? I made a joke and then decided it wasn't funny enough and wanted to delete it, and now I can't.

Ah, that moment of regret of hasty retort...have been there and searched for that magic delete button myself...

[samina]

Wow, hot new icon njdancegirl!
Dayung!!! Chica found her pepper...;)

[Laura]

There used to be a delete option on the Edit page, Samina.

Oh, and Chris, I don't mean that you don't deserve to have an opinion, what I mean is that you've never been in the Pro/Am mix so you don't have an intimate picture of what it's like. And then you made that remark about people having to travel...well, truth is that serious competitors in all divisions have to travel, so what of it?

[Chris Stratton]

what I mean is that you've never been in the Pro/Am mix

And now you know about 30% of the reason why.

On the other topic, I don't find a lot of difference between what Laura proposes someone do, and what syncopator says he has tried doing.

[samina]

Very interesting thread. I have enjoyed Chris' comments and perspective with his am/am background. FWIW, haven't perceived him as being up-in-arms or having hubris. IMO he's made some valid and interesting points.

[Laura]

And now you know about 30% of the reason why.

And my point now is that since you already choose not to participate, why bother getting so argumentative with those of us who do choose to participate? It's one thing to state your opinion, and another to keep hammering on it like you want to change the system -- a system that you are not even part of.

I fully recognize that Pro/Am has issues and idosyncracies, but it just really peeves me when someone who totally chooses to be outside of Pro/Am comes around and tries to tell us how the system does and doesn't work, and how it should and shouldn't work.

[Chris Stratton]

And my point now is that since you already choose not to participate, why bother getting so argumentative with those of us who do choose to participate? It's one thing to state your opinion, and another to keep hammering on it like you want to change the system -- a system that you are not even part of.

And instead of going to comps where he doesn't like the offerings, syncopator can go to ones where he does like they way they run. It's just voting with your feet again.

The problem with voting with your feet is that it doesn't change what's being abandoned, unless someone in a position to make a decision realizes that they are loosing real amounts of business based on their policy. Unless that realization gets through it doesn't expand opportunities, it just looses the less interesting ones.

Who knows what the impact of guys finding pro/am fields uninteresting really is on participation numbers? Nobody actually does - it's an open question. All we really know is that participation by men is fairly small.

[Laura]

And instead of going to comps where he doesn't like the offerings, syncopator can go to ones where he does like they way they run. It's just voting with your feet again.
And what is wrong with that? We have a consumer-based society, after all.

I agree that silent voting-with-feet is ineffective. That is why I suggested that Pro/Am dancers who would like to see changes get together (strength in numbers) and express their desire to see the changes.

There are comps out here that don't offer Amateur Rhythm events. Rather than just being quiet about it, there have been times when the Amateur Rhythm couples have gotten together and contacted the organizers in advance and asked that the event be added. When the organizer found out that there was actually a decent number of people who wanted the event, it was added. So, changes can be made if they are asked for in an effective manner. Some organizers will probably be more receptive than others, but really what do you want -- the NDCA to make a new rule that forces all the open one-dance events to be unisex? That goes against the custom of letting the local organizers do what they see as best for their clientele -- an ideal that I know you very much support based on your past arguments on other threads in favor of letting collegiate teams have a lot of flexibility to organize their own comps.

[Chris Stratton]

The thing I was most disappointed in was that the mens heats were moved either to Battelle or Grand Ballroom. Which meant that there was NO ONE to cheer on the men. I did almost all of my smooth and standard heats in complete isolation. No studio to cheer on all of the guys 1st places, or recalls into their finals. No people to chat and joke with. When I would occassionally walk into Regency, it felt like I was not even part of that competition. I might as well have been on Mars.

This strikes me as not a totally unrelated issue.

Although having a floor all to ourselves I think the pro-am men were blessed to finally have freedom to move with out having to duck under the arms of the male pros who don't ever seem to take consideration that the am men move less.

And this may be one of the reasons why Larinda doesn't like syncopator's proposed solution - however, that concern is going to have different weight in different cases. In some it may not be seen as a negative, especially perhaps at smaller competitions with only a few strong entires overall.

I seem to recall that the top pro/am event at Ohio was run mixed, and that none of the men made it very far, but then knowing a variety of both the male and female competitors who were entered, I don't find those results inconsistent with their training programs or their occasional amateur results.

I'm not saying that I don't think there can be a role for separate events, but as the alternate ballroom suggested, seperate tends to be unequal. And in many cases, seperate also means little competition. That says to me that it should be a choice, not a mandate.

[Laura]

By the way, syncopationator, if you do decide to rally Pro/Am dancers to ask for a reasonable solution to your issues with competition (or lack there of) like making the open one-dance events unisex by default, please contact me because I'll be more than happy to write a statement in favor of it to add to your pile of "yes, people want this" arguments. I think it's a good solution because it doesn't add any more events to the program, and because I feel it enhances the meaning of "open" in those "open" events.

I just think that, since the single-dance events are sort of "previews" of the Scholarship-dance events, if a Scholarship is going to be combined gender then it makes sense that there are some single-dance events leading up to it that are also combined gender.

[latingal]

I have to agree with the post way back about not being able to please everybody in a competition.

I myself like the compromise of having the single heats as gender separate and the scholarships and multidances unisex. It gives those who are perhaps less experienced or skilled a chance at a "straight peer" single heat, but still provides a venue for the more experienced (or more willing to be challenged) or higher skill level (in the form of the multi-dances and scholarships).

[Laura]

Latingal, I'm thinking your reasoning is why those organizers who do do it that way are doing it that way -- and to tell you the truth that also makes perfect sense to me (which is why I don't think that *every* competition should have to do it one way or the other -- both are completely reasonable approaches after all).

[latingal]

Latingal, I'm thinking your reasoning is why those organizers who do do it that way are doing it that way -- and to tell you the truth that also makes perfect sense to me (which is why I don't think that *every* competition should have to do it one way or the other -- both are completely reasonable approaches after all).

Yep, I think that it's good right now to have that variety. In the end, we would hope the market decides what it wants (by making those comps with a good mix more successful via attendance).

[Laura]

In the end, we would hope the market decides what it wants (by making those comps with a good mix more successful via attendance).

Oh no, Latingal, but that would be voting with your feet. :) Can we have that in a society where pretty much everything is market driven anyway? ;)

[latingal]

Oh no, Latingal, but that would be voting with your feet. :) Can we have that in a society where pretty much everything is market driven anyway? ;)

actually isn't that voting with my wallet? *grin*

[Laura]

Feet, wallet...they're both often covered in cloth or leather and you need both to be a dance competitor.

[syncopationator]

By the way, syncopationator, if you do decide to rally Pro/Am dancers to ask for a reasonable solution to your issues with competition (or lack there of) like making the open one-dance events unisex by default, please contact me because I'll be more than happy to write a statement in favor of it to add to your pile of "yes, people want this" arguments. I think it's a good solution because it doesn't add any more events to the program, and because I feel it enhances the meaning of "open" in those "open" events.

I just think that, since the single-dance events are sort of "previews" of the Scholarship-dance events, if a Scholarship is going to be combined gender then it makes sense that there are some single-dance events leading up to it that are also combined gender.

Let's start with a quick poll:
http://www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?t=27215

[dancerman]

Oh boy, I hope this doesn't come out wrong but I'm going to ask anyways. Am I wrong in thinking that in pro am competitions where female amatuer is dancing against a male amatuer the male amatuer would be at a disadvantage, all-be-it slight?
I only ask because as an amatuer leader with limited competing experience I would think it would be more difficult for a female pro to mask an error by her amatuer counerpart versus a male pro. (I know mine has tried).
Keep in mind I can only ask at a bronze or lower level, because that is all I know.

[and123]

IIRC, this was discussed before.... I presume our resident thread-finder will pop in with a link?

[mamboqueen]

DM - I think most people would probably agree with that. Men definitely have it harder because they have to lead and it's probably a bit harder for a female pro to cover for a male am than vice versa. But that's just my take. I think when things get to open that may change because I, for one, am usually drawn to the female partner in any couple and I think the female ams might be at a slight disadvantage. But that's just my opion, FWIW.

[mamboqueen]

IIRC, this was discussed before.... I presume our resident thread-finder will pop in with a link?

Calling all clods...!

[wooh]

The problem with voting with your feet is that it doesn't change what's being abandoned,

And maybe what's abandoned doesn't need to be changed. As Easy said, you can't make everyone happy. So go where you're happy.
Silly example: I'd like for Hotlanta to be all amateur. So I'm not going. And I'm not telling Nancy and Eddie, so they aren't going to know that's why I'm leaving and change it so I'll like it. So what? They change it so I'll like it, then they lose all the people that do want a giant pro-am comp. They don't care what my little bit of money would bring them. They care what the bajillion pro-am competitors are going to bring them.
Same with unisex. Leave because you want it and they won't give it. But it doesn't necessarily need to change at that comp because maybe the majority there don't want it. And in reality, the comp organizers are going to work hard to keep the women happy, because they are paying the majority of the money there. They're all about making money. If making sync happy costs them 2 or 3 or 4 women that aren't happy, they're going to instead make sync unhappy. And they REALLY don't care what Chris S thinks about it, because he isn't giving them any money to compete in their pro-am events.

[syncopationator]

Oh boy, I hope this doesn't come out wrong but I'm going to ask anyways. Am I wrong in thinking that in pro am competitions where female amatuer is dancing against a male amatuer the male amatuer would be at a disadvantage, all-be-it slight?
I only ask because as an amatuer leader with limited competing experience I would think it would be more difficult for a female pro to mask an error by her amatuer counerpart versus a male pro. (I know mine has tried).
Keep in mind I can only ask at a bronze or lower level, because that is all I know.

This is true. A pro once told me that for a male amateur to win in a merged pro/am event he must dance 3 times better than the ladies. I've never forgotten that. Its great motivation.

[dancerman]

DM - I think most people would probably agree with that. Men definitely have it harder because they have to lead and it's probably a bit harder for a female pro to cover for a male am than vice versa. But that's just my take. I think when things get to open that may change because I, for one, am usually drawn to the female partner in any couple and I think the female ams might be at a slight disadvantage. But that's just my opion, FWIW.

It's worth a lot to me, thank you. I have just always wondered. I watch some of the scholarships and when watching these professional males and their lead it amazes me. I can't imagine, as an amatuer, being able to present mine and my partners dancing at the level they do. Some of the scholarships I saw at Yankee come to mind.

[wooh]

This is true. A pro once told me that for a male amateur to win in a merged pro/am event he must dance 3 times better than the ladies. I've never forgotten that. Its great motivation.

Yeah, I thought it was so cute at Atl Open when Ben's student was up against Shalene's student, their announcing second, from Tennessee, and Shalene and her guy had already started walking up when they called out Ben's student's name. They were so shocked to have gotten first, it was sweet. (From what I saw, he well deserved it.)
I think it's tougher to make a guy look good than to make a woman look good in the competitive world. Now in the showcase world, there's the famous, "I'm going to spin around you while you stand there" choreography that will make any guy look good. But you can't get away with it at a comp.:)

[njdancegirl]

This is true. A pro once told me that for a male amateur to win in a merged pro/am event he must dance 3 times better than the ladies. I've never forgotten that. Its great motivation.

Really?!? I always feel like my ladies part is harder in terms of the steps than the male part (all the spins and fancy stuff we do while the guy spins us ;))...technique is technique. I get that you are also leading, but in the case of pro/am, your lady pro knows her part quite well I'm sure. And in the event of floorcraft issues, we all need to be able to abandon ship and just lead/follow along.

I guess I'll take your word for it as it seems to be the consensus...

[wooh]

It's worth a lot to me, thank you. I have just always wondered. I watch some of the scholarships and when watching these professional males and their lead it amazes me. I can't imagine, as an amatuer, being able to present mine and my partners dancing at the level they do. Some of the scholarships I saw at Yankee come to mind.

Well technically, you're not expected to. Although it may feel like it. And just keep in mind Edie's beginner's hell ideas, and know after a while, you'll be getting better when those am girls are stagnating.:)

[etp777]

Now in the showcase world, there's the famous, "I'm going to spin around you while you stand there" choreography that will make any guy look good. But you can't get away with it at a comp.:)

That sounds like a challenge to me. I'm going to have to talk to pro about our choreography for next comp. ;)

[syncopationator]

Some of the scholarships I saw at Yankee come to mind.

Latin or Standard?

[dancerman]

Well technically, you're not expected to. Although it may feel like it. And just keep in mind Edie's beginner's hell ideas, and know after a while, you'll be getting better when those am girls are stagnating.:)
Yes not expected to but in order to take, lets say first place, against an incredible leader with a real good partner, the amatuer leader would have to. Don't the judges rate the dance based on the "couples" peformance, not just the amatuer's half. This might be a really dumb question, but it sure as heck isn't my first, and I'm pretty certain won't be my last. LOL
:rolleyes:

[dancerman]

Latin or Standard?
Latin or rhythm on Thursday night. I didn't get to spend much time there. I just went to cheer on a whole bunch of my friends from Massahcusetts.

[tanya_the_dancer]

Yes not expected to but in order to take, lets say first place, against an incredible leader with a real good partner, the amatuer leader would have to. Don't the judges rate the dance based on the "couples" peformance, not just the amatuer's half. This might be a really dumb question, but it sure as heck isn't my first, and I'm pretty certain won't be my last. LOL
:rolleyes:

In open events, they do.

[dancerman]

In open events, they do.
Do what, judge just the amatuer?

[tanya_the_dancer]

Do what, judge just the amatuer?

I think in open events the whole team is being judged. In syllabus events, only the amateur half.

[syncopationator]

Do what, judge just the amatuer?

judge the couple. In closed events it depends on the judge. I like to think they are judging the couple.

[NielsenE]

In Open events they judge the couple. In Closed events the compare the students...

[syncopationator]

In Open events they judge the couple. In Closed events the compare the students...
are you refering to single dances or scholarships or both?

[dancerman]

In Open events they judge the couple. In Closed events the compare the students...
Thanks...

[tanya_the_dancer]

are you refering to single dances or scholarships or both?

I'm talking about scholarships/championships. I honestly don't care as much about single dances, since to me they're just a warm-up for the multi-dance event.

[syncopationator]

I'm talking about scholarships/championships. I honestly don't care as much about single dances, since to me they're just a warm-up for the multi-dance event.

So in Closed Scholarships they are still judging the student... correct?

[tanya_the_dancer]

So in Closed Scholarships they are still judging the student... correct?

Yes.

[SDsalsaguy]

So in Closed Scholarships they are still judging the student... correct?
That is the general rule of thumb I hear from most judges.

(For single dances I've also heard many say that they judge the am in Bronze and Silver and the couple in Gold)

[syncopationator]

Yes.

Is there an actual rule about this somewhere? I feel that different judges judge as they see fit. Some judge the student, some judge the couple, some judge the pro if they are confused. In fact I've was approached after a recent closed scholarship by one of the judges who commented that in his/her opinion my pro and I had a great look together and complemented each other well. I doubt that judge was just judging me on the floor.

[Terpsichorean Clod]

This is a good thread.
Pro Am where Am is the male (http://danceforums.com/showthread.php?t=10417)

Short but worth a look:
Pro-Am for guys? (http://www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?t=9991)

This is a decent thread until it gets sidetracked with blueberry pancakes.
Pro-Am of Lady-Man (http://www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?t=16013)

Somewhat related, there's a discussion of mixed proficiency couples (stronger leader vs. stronger follower) starting from here:
http://www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?p=452754&postcount=270

I answer to HRM.
Calling all clods...!
Not you. :p

IIRC, this was discussed before.... I presume our resident thread-finder will pop in with a link?

[SDsalsaguy]

TC to the rescue! :lol:

[tanya_the_dancer]

Is there an actual rule about this somewhere? I feel that different judges judge as they see fit. Some judge the student, some judge the couple, some judge the pro if they are confused. In fact I've was approached after a recent closed scholarship by one of the judges who commented that in his/her opinion my pro and I had a great look together and complemented each other well. I doubt that judge was just judging me on the floor.

That's the theory. What hap